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Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » September 11 Donate to DU
DulceDecorum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-04 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #52
57. Since you brought up
Edited on Tue Feb-17-04 01:53 PM by DulceDecorum
the subject of airworthiness certificates,
perhaps you would care to answer ONE question.

A while ago a Swissair plane crashed.
The subsequent investigation indicated that the crash had something to do with the In-Flight Entertainment system and also with the fact that when things started to go wrong, the pilot had no way to turn the darn thing off.
So the FAA had a look-see and issued some airworthiness directives aimed as reducing the possibility of a repeat performance.

AirSafetyWeek, March 26, 2001
"Hazards Penetrated Supplemental Certification Process."
Changes Ordered for In-flight Entertainment Systems
In-flight entertainment systems that cannot be turned off unless pilots pull circuit breakers must be modified, disconnected or removed outright. Operators of 74 U.S.-registered aircraft have 18 months to accomplish the work, according to a battery of airworthiness directives (ADs) issued March 2 by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA).
The directives stem from a wider investigative net cast by the FAA after the fiasco over the IFE installed in Swissair MD-11 and B747 aircraft. When one of the MD-11s crashed at Halifax, Canada, in 1998, and burned Kapton wires were recovered from the IFE, Swissair officials immediately ordered the same IFE installations disconnected on remaining aircraft. Circuit breakers were pulled and power cables literally were cut and capped, pursuant to complete removal at a more deliberate pace.
The FAA had approved the system's installation under a Special Type Certificate (STC).
<snip>
March 2001 FAA orders operators to modify, deactivate or remove various IFE systems on some 180 other aircraft (29 months after Swissair disconnected the improperly installed IFE on its aircraft).
Sources: FAA, TSB, BAZL, Swissair

Modify, Deactivate, Remove
Summary of Mandated Actions
* B737-300 and B737-700. Modify IFE. FAA rationale: "The IFE system...is connected to an electrical bus that cannot be deactivated without also cutting power to airplane systems necessary for safe flight.... Also, there is no means available the flight or cabin crew to remove power from flight manual (AFM) and cabin crew the IFE system without pulling circuit breakers.... The airplane manual do not provide clear instructions on how to remove power from the IFE.... This condition, if not corrected, could result in...inability to control smoke or fumes in the airplane..." Mandated modifications include installing a master switch to cut IFE power and explaining its functioning in the AFM.

* B757-200. Deactivate air-to-ground telephone system. Rationale: Similar to B737 above - no
means to cut power with pulling CBs. Emergency procedures not revised to advise crew.

Let us take another look at that last paragraph:
B757-200.
DEACTIVATE AIR-TO-GROUND TELEPHONE SYSTEM.
Rationale: Similar to B737 above - no means to cut power with pulling CBs.
Emergency procedures not revised to advise crew.

Does this mean that
the FAA is telling ALL the operators of ALL Boeing 757s to
DEACTIVATE the AIR-TO-GROUND TELEPHONE SYSTEM?

Oh my!
Is this the Airworthiness Directive they are referring to?

AD/B757/69 Air-to-Ground Telephone System
FAA STC SA1727GL 9/2001
Applicability: Model 757-200 series airplanes modified by United States Federal Aviation Administration
(FAA) Supplemental Type Certificate (STC) SA1727GL.
Requirement:
1. Deactivate the In-Flight Phone Corporation air-to-ground telephone system approved by STC SA1727GL in accordance with the following procedures: a. Remove the circuit breakers listed in the following table: ............
2. Air-to-Ground telephone systems may not be installed on any aeroplane in accordance with STC SA1727GL.
Note: FAA AD 2001-14-01 Amdt 39-12311 refers.
Compliance:
For Requirement 1 - Within 18 months after the effective date of this Directive.
For Requirement 2 - As of the effective date of this Directive. This Airworthiness Directive becomes effective on 6 September 2001. Background: This Directive requires the deactivation of the Air-to-Ground telephone systems installed by STC SA1727GL. This action is required to ensure that, when necessary, the flight crew is able to remove electrical power from the telephone system. Inability to remove power from the telephone system during a non-normal or emergency situation could result in inability to control smoke or fumes in the airplane flight deck or cabin.

Well, according to that,
on September 6, 2001,
the FAA instructed that ALL Boeing 757s be deprived of Air-to-Ground telephone systems.
Now, just suppose that United Airlines and American Airlines had paid the least bit of attention to the FAA.
We know for a fact that they were not at all interested in complying with FAA AIRWORTHINESS DIRECTIVES. And we also know for a fact that the FAA is not interested in holding them accountable.

Just suppose that those two carriers were at all interested in complying with FAA AIRWORTHINESS DIRECTIVES.
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Libra...

American Airlines Flight 77, was a Boeing 757-223 (N644AA).
United Airlines Flight 93, was a Boeing 757-222 (N591UA).
These two planes were not supposed to have a functioning air-to-ground telephone system.

Good thing that neither American Airlines, nor United Airlines, nor even the FAA give a damn about the airworthiness of the planes flying over your head, because if they did, then we would NOT have those calls from Barbara Olson, Mark Bingham, Todd Beamer, Jeremy Glick and all the people who managed to use the recently-outlawed Boeing 757 air-to-ground telephone system.

So what if the plane could have caught on fire with that system in heavy use?
The FAA doesn't appear to care, so why should anyone else?
Heck, the FAA didn't even bother to revise the emergency procedures to advise the crew that the air-to-ground telephone system was no longer functioning.
(Think of the impact the lack of this information would have had on the stewardesses of Flight 11.)

So what if the ability to control smoke or fumes in the flight deck of the 757 in an emergency situation was impaired?
The important thing is that the passengers on board Flight 93 and Barbara Olson aboard Flight 77 managed to complete air-to-ground calls using a telephone system that was hazardous to the integrity of the aircraft they were inside.

They may all be dead, but they really lucked out.
And so did the planes.
Especially the ones that are still registered.

So my question to you,
mn9driver,
is this:
Should the owners/operators of N644AA and N591UA
have swiftly complied with AD/B757/69 ?

(See,
I can too tell the difference
between an N-number and an airworthiness directive.
Anything else you care to bring up?)
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  -It Was Flight 77 crispy  Feb-13-04 02:32 PM   #0 
  - dammit  crispy   Feb-13-04 02:38 PM   #1 
  - No  DulceDecorum   Feb-13-04 08:21 PM   #2 
     - let crispy himself rebut this reply from eastman  dick_eastman   Feb-25-04 05:01 PM   #101 
        - Deleted message  Name removed   Feb-25-04 07:39 PM   #102 
        - Response  crispy   Feb-27-04 11:21 AM   #103 
           - Anyone?  crispy   Mar-01-04 09:53 PM   #105 
              - ANOTHER THREAD  DulceDecorum   Mar-03-04 03:41 PM   #106 
                 - Slicing Crispy to ribbons???? LOLOLOL  boloboffin   Mar-03-04 05:08 PM   #107 
                 - So what about the other thread?  boloboffin   Mar-14-04 01:47 PM   #108 
  - Maybe one day I will...  JackRiddler   Feb-14-04 12:12 AM   #3 
  - You're wasting your time.  mn9driver   Feb-14-04 08:21 AM   #4 
  - Attn: Official Story Conspiracy spokesperson:  Abe Linkman   Feb-14-04 02:47 PM   #5 
  - Gotta "hand" it to ya  crispy   Feb-14-04 09:25 PM   #6 
  - "crispy" was no help. Would someone pls. read THIS...  Abe Linkman   Feb-14-04 09:54 PM   #7 
  - Yeah, me too  BeFree   Feb-14-04 11:23 PM   #9 
  - Some wreckage photos at this link.  mn9driver   Feb-14-04 11:58 PM   #10 
  - Those pieces of "wreckage"  DulceDecorum   Feb-15-04 02:42 PM   #23 
     - Can you provide a more direct link that states this  LARED   Feb-15-04 03:08 PM   #24 
     - (Sigh) What did I tell you, crispy?  mn9driver   Feb-15-04 03:43 PM   #27 
        - There is NO documentation  DulceDecorum   Feb-16-04 09:45 AM   #37 
           - Off we go...into the wild blue yonder....you crack me up, Dulce.  mn9driver   Feb-16-04 09:51 AM   #38 
              - How about just a little explaining where you feel DD is wrong?  Abe Linkman   Feb-16-04 10:43 AM   #39 
              - No. I meant I won't. I do have 5 minutes, though, so  mn9driver   Feb-16-04 11:46 AM   #42 
                 - Have you seen what FEDERAL LAW  DulceDecorum   Feb-16-04 01:47 PM   #48 
                 - There's a difference between N number registration  mn9driver   Feb-16-04 04:20 PM   #52 
                    - Since you brought up  DulceDecorum   Feb-17-04 01:30 PM   #57 
                       - AD's, STC's as Airworthiness Cert.'s? The problem w/the Web, DD  mn9driver   Feb-17-04 04:31 PM   #61 
                          - How do you think I'm going to get along  DulceDecorum   Feb-17-04 10:38 PM   #63 
                 - About those "expiring" UA registrations  DulceDecorum   Feb-18-04 07:05 PM   #65 
              - FACT  DulceDecorum   Feb-16-04 12:50 PM   #44 
              - And these facts are  LARED   Feb-16-04 01:14 PM   #45 
              - That is nonsense. I explained the medical certification issue  mn9driver   Feb-16-04 04:25 PM   #53 
                 - Tell that to the FAA  DulceDecorum   Feb-17-04 12:56 PM   #56 
                    - You dont seem able to take in new information, DD.  mn9driver   Feb-17-04 03:14 PM   #59 
                       - Fantasies?  DulceDecorum   Feb-17-04 10:23 PM   #62 
              - De-registered Aircraft  DulceDecorum   Feb-16-04 01:32 PM   #46 
                 - Which part of  LARED   Feb-16-04 02:28 PM   #51 
                 - Are you really unable to tell the difference between  mn9driver   Feb-16-04 08:10 PM   #54 
                    - Is that your final answer?  DulceDecorum   Feb-17-04 01:55 PM   #58 
                       - Refer to #59  mn9driver   Feb-17-04 03:14 PM   #60 
  - NSF did a study  Robb   Feb-15-04 12:52 PM   #17 
     - NSF did not do the Study  impe   Feb-17-04 08:54 AM   #55 
        - None of this has been investigated....that's what Families of  mac2   Mar-01-04 08:57 AM   #104 
  - You're right to bring this up  JackRiddler   Feb-15-04 05:46 PM   #33 
     - Speak for yourself, John Alden.  Abe Linkman   Feb-16-04 10:44 AM   #40 
  - Several people  DulceDecorum   Feb-14-04 10:16 PM   #8 
     - Yes,Yes, Yes  LARED   Feb-15-04 07:27 AM   #12 
  - Here's two  LARED   Feb-15-04 07:21 AM   #11 
     - Is that all??  BeFree   Feb-15-04 10:41 AM   #13 
     - We need  crispy   Feb-15-04 11:29 AM   #14 
     - You will be waiting a loooooooong time  LARED   Feb-15-04 12:04 PM   #15 
        - Still Waiting  BeFree   Feb-15-04 12:45 PM   #16 
           - You're mixed up about Ameircan justice  LARED   Feb-15-04 01:39 PM   #20 
              - So, ya think there was no crime?  BeFree   Feb-15-04 02:28 PM   #21 
              - Of course there was a crime  LARED   Feb-15-04 03:15 PM   #25 
                 - Proof  BeFree   Feb-15-04 03:43 PM   #26 
                    - No, I stated my opinion already  LARED   Feb-15-04 04:27 PM   #29 
                       - No cover-up of the evidence?  BeFree   Feb-15-04 04:36 PM   # 
                       - How about you answer  LARED   Feb-16-04 05:49 AM   #34 
                       - What incompetence are you talking about?  Abe Linkman   Feb-15-04 04:38 PM   #31 
                          - see 34 n/t  LARED   Feb-16-04 05:50 AM   #35 
              - You need to prove a lot more than that  TrogL   Feb-15-04 02:33 PM   #22 
                 - Thanks. Trogl  BeFree   Feb-15-04 03:58 PM   #28 
     - I don't buy your crash claim. Now; about the Pentagon recovery efforts.  Abe Linkman   Feb-15-04 12:53 PM   #18 
     - And what you have provided sounds like  LARED   Feb-15-04 01:36 PM   #19 
        - YOU believe (and sell) whatever nonsense YOU choose.  Abe Linkman   Feb-15-04 04:45 PM   #32 
           - Well  LARED   Feb-16-04 05:53 AM   #36 
              - Yessir. Salespeople of all stripes are welcome at DU.  Abe Linkman   Feb-16-04 10:48 AM   #41 
     - Well done, sir  HarryLime   Feb-19-04 06:16 PM   #78 
     - How do we know the tissue samples came fom both sites  JellyBean1   Feb-23-04 01:16 PM   #99 
  - ## Support Democratic Underground! ##  DU GrovelBot   Feb-15-04 04:36 PM   #30 
  - Alternative scenario  demodewd   Feb-16-04 12:30 PM   #43 
  - All the flights  DulceDecorum   Feb-16-04 01:36 PM   #47 
  - doubt  demodewd   Feb-16-04 02:28 PM   #50 
  - Let me see if I understand  LARED   Feb-16-04 02:23 PM   #49 
  - Heeheehee...funny :)  MercutioATC   Feb-17-04 11:40 PM   #64 
     - decoy  demodewd   Feb-18-04 07:44 PM   #66 
     - Double decoy?  DulceDecorum   Feb-18-04 08:22 PM   #68 
     - re:189  demodewd   Feb-19-04 11:49 AM   #73 
        - ALL the other numbers  DulceDecorum   Feb-19-04 02:48 PM   #74 
     - Stealthy decoy...nobody saw a return...  MercutioATC   Feb-18-04 09:26 PM   #71 
        - Nobody COULD see.  DulceDecorum   Feb-20-04 05:15 PM   #80 
           - Excellent question, DD. (why cut off transmissions but allow calls)  Abe Linkman   Feb-20-04 07:51 PM   #81 
           - This isn't an "official" response.  mn9driver   Feb-21-04 12:52 PM   # 
           - This isn't an "official" response.  mn9driver   Feb-21-04 12:52 PM   #83 
           - With no transponder, we lose a lot of data, but we CAN see a raw radar  MercutioATC   Feb-20-04 09:15 PM   #82 
              - planned?  k-robjoe   Feb-21-04 01:38 PM   #84 
                 - As far as I know, it wasn't "lost from radar", although laypersons like  MercutioATC   Feb-21-04 11:14 PM   #85 
                    - Re: "not" lost from radar  DulceDecorum   Feb-22-04 12:32 AM   #86 
                       - And, once again, we have an issue created by technical language, not fact.  MercutioATC   Feb-22-04 01:17 AM   #87 
                          - Technical diversions from Wherdy Go on 9-11  Abe Linkman   Feb-22-04 09:11 AM   #88 
                          - You really like that "Whacky cave man" line, don't you?  MercutioATC   Feb-22-04 12:03 PM   #91 
                             - "Wacky Cave Man" is Abe's last line of defense  boloboffin   Feb-22-04 06:45 PM   #92 
                             - "Wacky Cave Man Did It" theory best describes what is being "sold"...  Abe Linkman   Feb-22-04 06:59 PM   #93 
                                - QED  boloboffin   Feb-22-04 10:34 PM   #95 
                                   - Is that "Rendon Group" talk or something else?  Abe Linkman   Feb-22-04 11:19 PM   #96 
                                      - Q.E.D. (quod erat demonstrandum)  boloboffin   Feb-23-04 01:49 PM   #100 
                             - Having aviation professionals responding to posts  mn9driver   Feb-22-04 09:18 PM   #94 
                          - haven´t seen  k-robjoe   Feb-22-04 11:22 AM   #89 
                             - I wasn't there. I don't know that it didn't. I just know that the terms  MercutioATC   Feb-22-04 11:54 AM   #90 
                                - reappear  k-robjoe   Feb-23-04 03:20 AM   #97 
                                   - identify  k-robjoe   Feb-23-04 08:04 AM   #98 
     - Are you referring to the "Wacky Cave Man Did It" Conspiracy?  Abe Linkman   Feb-18-04 08:09 PM   #67 
        - Nope, the "decoy and poison gas" theory. It just doesn't work.  MercutioATC   Feb-18-04 09:41 PM   #72 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Feb-18-04 08:34 PM   #69 
  - A waste of OUR money  DulceDecorum   Feb-18-04 09:07 PM   #70 
  - Nobody has noticed this & why?  nomatrix   Feb-19-04 03:24 PM   #75 
     - Chuckie-pooh  DulceDecorum   Feb-19-04 04:23 PM   #76 
        - No pooh, piglet, or Eeyore  nomatrix   Feb-19-04 05:31 PM   #77 
           - JS/07/M/378/  DulceDecorum   Feb-20-04 01:11 PM   #79 
 

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