Reply #21: Answers for your questions...

[Chulanowa]

1) Why is it Jews felt they couldn't live in the societies of other people and had to seek refuge in a land Jews already lived in continually for thousands of years? Might it have ANY thing to do with the persecution they suffered for thousands of years that eventually led to the Holocaust?

Okay. Let's run with your argument. Let's pretend for the moment that Zionism is a noble quest to create a safe and properous homeland for the Jews of the world.

Why then, if all that was needed was a patch of usable land for the Jews to live on safely, did it absolutely, at all costs, no comprimise allowed, have to be Palestine? I mean maybe it's just me, but saying something like "My people are on hteir last legs,, we need a place where we can be safe from persecution, please, for the love of God, give us somewhere... So long as it's this one spot, we won't accept anything else" seems... Well, it strikes me as being a little dissonant.

Perhaps it's because the Zionists were part of the privileged class, while the people they were trying to "save" were the ones getting fucked that resulted in this disconnect? I suppose it's easy to argue over dinner with Herr Deutsch over the validity of your claim for Palestine, if you're not the one in the camp.

But even beyond this strange level of pickiness for a desperate people, there's the simple fact that, well, they already knew about all the problems that would result. The idea of Jewish expatriation was not a new one - It'd existed at least since the 1700's, and had been investigated and researched intensively, by Christian and Jewish, European and American interests, quite extensively. It was already very well known that the mass migration if hundreds of thousands - or especially millions - of people to the Levant would cause lots and lots of problems. For a moment, set aside all that ethnic, religions, linguistic stuff. Imagine if the northernmost five Mexican states just suddenly emptied into the United States. Can you imagine the logistics of that shit? It's staggering. NOW mix in the religious, ethnic, and political issues. Oh yeah. That's a mess, huh? A mess hte Zionists knew they were getting onto.

So, how did all this turn out, Shira, this noble and admirable quest for a Jewish homeland, safe and prosperous? Well, according to your all-too-frequent posts, Israel is like, CONSTANTLY on the verge of destruction by everyone and anyone. Israelis live in a pretty constant state of shock and fear, and are one of the most militarized societies on earth. Not only is there the actual threat posed by the people who used to live there and their allies, but the Government - Zionists, one and all - are only to happy to stir up more fear and anxiety by explaining, in detail, how Israel is about to be obliterated by the Boogeyman of the Week.

Please forgive me if I think your argument about how the Zionists are out for the good of the Jewish people has about the same worth as a pile of my own shit, Shira. Possibly less, my crap can be mulched.

Is it so difficult for you to admit there is justice to the zionist cause?

You're asking me whether I think it is just to punish the Arabs of Palestine for the crimes of the governments of Europe.

You're asking me whether I think you are just to demand a Jewish homeland in the Levant, while you are while living in a city built over the remains of the village of Totant, part of the domain of Nanepashemet's band of the Massachusetts tribe.

You're asking me if I believe it is just to create a safe haven for one's people that you know for a fact will be neither safe nor a haven.

So, I'm asking you - Is this a bad joke, or are you really so dumb?

2. You believe Jews felt 60-100 years ago that only they belonged there, it was okay to take/steal land that wasn't theirs, boot out the arabs, and they acted on these beliefs?

The ones who subscribed to the ideals of Zionism, yes, since that's exactly what Zionism is about. Unlike you, Shira, I don't subscribe to the idea that any particular ethnicity shares a hive mind, so, no, I don't think "the jews" believed anything as a singular unit.

I leave that to antisemites and zionists. Not that there's a lit of difference between the two, in practice.