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Reply #29: Let's also consider that you don't know much about this case either... [View All]

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arwalden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-08-06 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Let's also consider that you don't know much about this case either...
Edited on Sat Jul-08-06 06:49 PM by arwalden
... or if you do, then you're not sharing that information with us.

<< I don't consider myself particularly credulous,>>

Okay. Are you also particularly infallible?


<< and I find your self identified "high standards" quite annoying under the circumstances.>>

Strange. Why would anyone find such a thing to be "quite annoying"?? :shrug:

I think what you actually find to be "quite annoying" is my trying to satisfy my high standards by asking difficult questions that you don't have the answers for.


<< In fact, I find your statements rather callous.>>

Callous? Really? -- How?

To whom am I being callous? What's "callous" about pointing out that certain "facts" don't appear to be consistent with reality? How does that make me (or my statements) callous?


<< You don't know the hospital. You don't know the people. >>

Well... that's why I'm wanting more information... something from credible sources OTHER than "friend-of-a-friend" types of anecdotal stories. None of my questions are unreasonable.


<< You don't know me. >>

That's true, but I'm not sure what that has do do with anything.

I've been very careful to make clear that I was not judging you or doubting you personally. I don't think you're intentionally trying to deceive. I do think that the story as it was relayed to you (and as you are re-telling it) doesn't seem to be very plausible.


<< So if I were a stickler for "rules of evidence," and in fact I am,>>

I'm happy to read that you're a "stickler" for evidence. Since such thing are so important to you, do you have any other information about this story that you can share?


<< I would say that you need some support for your arbitrary claim that this the birth of an urban myth.>>

Soooo... are you asking me to prove that something is FALSE? How exactly does someone prove a negative?

No, I'm not being "arbitrary" when I suggested that we seem to be witnessing the birth of an urban legend. I made that statement based on the LACK of evidence, and the inconsistencies, and the holes in the story.

I can't prove that the story is false, but I *can* point out why it doesn't ring true. If the storyteller has additional information to support their claims, then it's their responsibility to provide it.


<< You are implying that I, or my source, am or is lying or am or is misconstruing events. >>

I've done no such thing. I've said that the "facts" and events as they are being told in the story aren't very convincing. Something is missing. Something has been exaggerated.

Did your "source" actually witness the events that she relayed to you, or was she telling you a story that was told to her? (I'm thinking that it's probably the latter, because if SHE actually witnessed the events in the story, then why didn't SHE do something... call for help... rush to aid, etc.)


<< Your justification for this is some vague assertions about the rates of bleeding to death, and some suppositions about the physical location of the hospital. >>

That's not entirely true. I've simply pointed out that the story has holes in it. There are inconsistencies and a lack of details that leave many unanswered questions.


<< In fact, you offer no evidence that you are familiar with the geometry of the hospital though. >>

Actually, it's not up to me to provide any evidence. I'm just letting you know that, in my mind, the story you relayed is highly suspect. On the face of it, the story lacks evidence (just as urban legends do).

The details are sketchy, the scenario is improbable, it has an ironic twist with tragic results, and it makes a sad commentary on the human condition. Again... all the earmarks of an urban legend.

Perhaps it's based on real events. Perhaps it's exaggerated to make it's point... but as it stands, it's not credible.


<< Neither have you authored a study of the frequency of Trenton foot traffic. Unless of course, you are about to report that you have authored a medical study of how quickly people can bleed to death, and the sociology of public response to particular extreme emergencies, you are basing your objections on supposition.>>

So, you're making the argument that because something hasn't been proven false, that it must be true?? :shrug: That does nothing to prove anything about the story.

The fact that someone has not written a thesis on any of the above subjects does not disqualify them from asking questions. Nor does it disqualify them from pointing to the inconsistencies in the story.


<< You are basing your entire case on a statement that the events are improbable. Indeed they are. >>

That's not true. First of all, I'm not making a "case"... as I said before it's not up to me to DIS-prove anything.

What I can do is point out where and why there are inconsistencies, and why I find the details of the story to be questionable. I've asked for more evidence and rather than do so, you choose to berate me for being incredulous.

When did this event take place?
Last week? Today? Last month?
Was your friend an eyewitness?
If not, WHO was the eyewitness?
Did this happen in the middle of the night? During the day?
How long did the woman lay there in her own blood?
Was it on a well-traveled sidewalk? An isolated alley?


<< Generally one does not report probable, ordinary events. One discusses unusual events. This is why lottery winners are always news items. >>

That's very true! Which brings me back to something I asked earlier: Why wasn't this tragic event covered by local news? The circumstances of this suicide make for a VERY UNUSUAL event!

Are there any links that would confirm and verify the events as you've told them? If so, I'd be interested in reading them.

If not, I wonder why not? As you said... this was certainly an unusual event that would be newsworthy.


<<This is a tragic situation. Maybe you think that tragic circumstances need to reported only in courtroom criteria exist and can only be believed if reported by direct witnesses under courtroom rules of evidence. >>

No, that's not completely true... *however*... SOME evidence would be nice.

Unfortunately we have NO evidence... ZERO, NADA, ZILCH! --- Surely you don't fault me for wanting to see some little shred of something that would corroborate and confirm that the story actually happened as you've told it.


<<By this criteria about 90% of what is discussed on DU about the war, for instance, would fail this standard, since very few of us here are actually in Iraq or are taking direct reports from those who are there.>>

That's a very weak strawman argument. It's irrelevant and has nothing to do with this anecdote you've told.

But I can point out that most of the sources for the stories coming out of Iraq are reliable and most can be independently confirmed through multiple sources. It's not very often that we have to rely on 3rd hand friend-of-a-friend" accounts. (And when we do, the reporter usually identifies the type of source and acknowledges that it's unverified... or we can choose to trust the details are factual based on the reputation of the reporter.)


<< Still, I feel I, and other DUers, have a decent sense of what is going on in Iraq. >>

That's nice. Irrelevant, but nice.


<< I have a very decent - or in this case indecent - sense about what is going on in that hospital.>>

Sorry, your senses aren't good enough for me. Nothing personal.


<< I also have a slight problem with the notion that only those events that have an internet link associated with them are true and that if an event has not occurred in the paper it is not true. >>

Strawman. Nobody has asserted such a thing.

What I have said (and you yourself have also suggested) is that an event like this is indeed newsworthy. Therefore, it's natural to wonder WHY such a thing was not covered by any local news organization.

The absence of such coverage does NOT mean that the story is false... HOWEVER, the absence of such coverage DOES add even more doubt to all the other questions that are piling up.


<<There are many, many, many disturbing events that are never reported in the media. I think most of us here who are liberals are intimately acquainted with that fact. >>

If we accept your assertion that "many disturbing events that are never reported in the media," are we to conclude that because THIS event did not appear in the media, that it must therefore be true? That's a fallacious argument.


<< I do not know, but would expect, that many suicides are not reported in the papers, at least for what they are.>>

Perhaps not... but as you said... this particular suicide was highly unusual.

A *nurse* fails to receive treatment at a *busy* crisis center at the hospital where she actually WORKED, and then in response she kills herself on the sidewalk outside by slitting her wrists... and NOBODY sees her, nobody recognizes her, nobody helps, nobody reports it for the entire length of time it takes her to bleed out... from her WRISTS?

True, not all suicides are newsworthy... but the events and circumstances of this story certainly are dramatic enough and ironic enough to warrant at least a paragraph or two.

If it's true, I can't imagine that ANY newspaper would walk away from the sensational headlines that this story could generate. It's certainly a commentary on how overburdened and overworked our health-care system is... do you HONESTLY think that a newspaper or TV station is going to walk away from a story like that??


<< If this nurse were my mother, I would certainly be ambivalent about press involvement and don't know that I would seek it out. >>

If this story were true, I doubt there would be anything that the family members could do to prevent it from being reported. They may choose NOT to provide additional information (or interviews) to the press... but the tragic IRONY of this story would generate headlines nevertheless.


<< My ex-housemate's suicide was not reported for instance, probably out of consideration for his family, who, as it happened were fairly prominent. >>

Irrelevant. (Yes, yes... I now fully expect that you'll now scold me for being so "callous" by reminding me that your housemate's suicide wasn't irrelevant to the people involved, right? :eyes: However... with regard to THIS story, and THIS discussion, you are making an irrelevant argument that does nothing to support your contention that this story about the nurse is factual.)


<< You take it or you leave it. I am reporting something that troubles me deeply and something about which I have information.>>

By your own accounts, you have very limited information which you accept at face value.


<< If you prefer to believe that I am either liar or a credulous fool, that is none of my concern and in no way impacts how I feel about the events. >>

I've said no such thing about you.


<< If you would like to examine the body of my more than 9000 posts here to find other instances where I have invented similar tales, please feel free to point them up. >>

Also irrelevant. I've made no such accusation about you. I've not accused you of "inventing" anything. I think it's fair to point out that the approach you're taking does absolutely NOTHING to support the validity or truthfulness of THIS particular story.


<< Good day. >>

:eyes:



edit: clarity, typo
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