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Reply #28: It picks up on it, put after a day or so puts it back on the shelf [View All]

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Bush_Eats_Beef Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-04-04 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #11
28. It picks up on it, put after a day or so puts it back on the shelf
One of the BIGGEST challenges the Democratic Party will face...or alternatively, we move forward is the CRITICAL need for:

1). Follow-through

2). SUSTAINED intensity

3). Not allowing themselves to be "defined by their opponent."

Karl Rove (DESPITE his lack of a conscience and cut-throat skills) scores an A+ on all of the above. NO one is rattling his cage and going "Come ON, Karl, you need to pay attention and GET INVOLVED here." He's involved. That's how we lost. WE need to become "INVOLVED." He's running the race well before the starting gun is fired.

He's a carnivore. The Democratic Party needs a carnivore. All of the talk about "getting through to the redmecks in the red states?" A carnivore will get through. More than anything, Rove savors the defeat of his's what drives him. A DEMOCRAT needs to sit down with a copy of Machiavelli's "The Prince"...just like Rove did...and walk away with a lesson in life.

"Machiavelli opens The Prince describing the two principal types of governments: monarchies and republics. His focus in The Prince is on monarchies. The most controversial aspects of Machiavelli's analysis emerge in the middle chapters of his work. In Chapter 15 he proposes to describe the truth about surviving as a monarch, rather than recommending lofty moral ideals. He describes those virtues which, on face value, we think a prince should possess. He concludes that some "virtues" will lead to a prince's destruction, whereas some "vices" allow him to survive. Indeed, the virtues which we commonly praise in people might lead to his downfall. In chapter 16 he notes that we commonly think that it is best for a prince to have a reputation of being generous. However, if his generosity is done in secret, no one will know about it and he will be thought to be greedy. If it is done openly, then he risks going broke to maintain his reputation. He will then extort more money from his subjects and thus be hated. For Machiavelli, it is best for a prince to have a reputation for being stingy. Machiavelli anticipates examples one might give of generous monarchs who have been successful. He concludes that generosity should only be shown to soldiers with goods taken from a pillaged enemy city. In Chapter 17 he argues that it is better for a prince to be severe when punishing people rather than merciful. Severity through death sentences affects only a few, but it deters crimes which affects many. Further, he argues, it is better to be feared than to be loved. However, the prince should avoid being hated, which he can easily accomplish by not confiscating the property of his subjects: "people more quickly forget the death of their father than the loss of their inheritance." In Chapter 18, perhaps the most controversial section of The Prince, Machiavelli argues that the prince should know how to be deceitful when it suits his purpose. When the prince needs to be deceitful, though, he must not appear that way. Indeed he must always exhibit five virtues in particular: mercy, honesty, humaneness, uprightness, and religiousness. In Chapter 19 Machiavelli argues that the prince must avoid doing things which will cause him to be hated. This is accomplished by not confiscating property, and not appearing greedy or wishy-washy. In fact, the best way to avoid being overthrown is to avoid being hated."

Remember the TERRIBLE "rebuttal" Tom Daschle gave at the end of Bush's last State of the Union address? People on DU were going CRAZY: "What the hell is WRONG with him? Why doesn't he SPEAK OUT, get PISSED OFF?"

A loss is a loss, but given what I've seen, the loss of Tom Daschle simply makes way for someone better. It's the epitome of the cloud with the silver lining.

That link I provided is worth a Salon day features responses from about a dozen folks like Arianna Huffington, Moby, and Camille Paglia, in addition to Miller.
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  -Mark Crispin Miller: "First of all, this election was definitely rigged" Bush_Eats_Beef  Nov-04-04 01:27 PM   #0 
  - it does seem hard to believe  central scrutinizer   Nov-04-04 01:29 PM   #1 
  - We didn't. This election was stolen in the machines.  aquart   Nov-04-04 01:31 PM   #2 
  - We need to question it.  LiberalAndProud   Nov-04-04 01:43 PM   #21 
  - early ballots simply not counted  radiofreesrini   Nov-04-04 04:38 PM   #74 
  - So why the fuck did Kerry concede?  Sterling   Nov-04-04 05:27 PM   #84 
     - I would love to know that.  brainshrub   Nov-04-04 05:36 PM   #85 
     - My thoughts right along...  moosedog   Nov-04-04 07:19 PM   #100 
     - oops, self delete  Carolina   Nov-04-04 08:30 PM   #106 
     - I think he conceded  Carolina   Nov-04-04 08:31 PM   #107 
     - Hmm - that is interesting. But it would mean he put party over country  vidali   Nov-04-04 11:34 PM   #119 
     - The 1% rich party?  nolabels   Nov-05-04 03:18 AM   #138 
     - no I don't mean he put party over country  Carolina   Nov-05-04 06:54 AM   #140 
     - i agree -  demjomr313   Nov-05-04 07:25 AM   #141 
        - Well, if he didn't want the job  WildClarySage   Nov-05-04 12:24 PM   #152 
     - I don't understand it either.  anotheryellowdog   Nov-05-04 03:10 AM   #137 
        - Of course Kerry knew that.  Zhade   Nov-06-04 12:56 PM   #161 
  - that's my belief, as well  American liberal   Nov-04-04 08:00 PM   #104 
     - NPR  KCS72000   Nov-05-04 11:22 AM   #149 
  - Excellent analogy. nt  vidali   Nov-04-04 01:32 PM   #4 
  - Well, there is corroboration here.  bushbash   Nov-04-04 01:37 PM   #10 
  - I can't find it..........  springhill   Nov-04-04 03:59 PM   #59 
     - Series of articles  michaelwb   Nov-04-04 04:14 PM   #63 
     - Same here  brainshrub   Nov-04-04 05:08 PM   #78 
  - Mark Crispin Miller is a bright man  SpikeTrees   Nov-04-04 01:31 PM   #3 
  - But they did in Franklin County...  chimpy the poopthrower   Nov-04-04 01:36 PM   #6 
  - The gay initiative did it inOhio but everywhere the EV's were  ladjf   Nov-04-04 01:36 PM   #7 
  - I agree. They would have been more likely to stay home had that not been..  UCLA Dem   Nov-04-04 02:26 PM   #34 
  - He understands quite well the problems in Ohio  vidali   Nov-04-04 01:37 PM   #9 
  - you can still fix an election with paper ballots..  qcsoapbox   Nov-04-04 01:39 PM   #14 
  - True. Paperless electronic machines aren't the ONLY way to steal votes...  chimpy the poopthrower   Nov-04-04 01:43 PM   #22 
  - it's not just the voting machines  lazarus   Nov-04-04 01:40 PM   #16 
  - Yes, errors in the card reader  SpikeTrees   Nov-04-04 01:42 PM   #19 
  - There were other dirty tricks  Dancing_Dave   Nov-04-04 01:45 PM   #23 
  - What can we do about  zidzi   Nov-04-04 03:43 PM   #53 
     - Here is the plan it is just the core a little rough but a start  Vincardog   Nov-04-04 04:08 PM   #62 
        - DUH????? Did you just see what you WROTE???  loudsue   Nov-04-04 06:30 PM   #96 
  - I believe 7 counties in Ohio use electronic voting.  Zorra   Nov-04-04 07:06 PM   #98 
  - Without the slightest doubt! Keep on hammering the bastards.  ladjf   Nov-04-04 01:35 PM   #5 
  - The GOP stealing the election "just didn't register" with Kerry? OMG.  highplainsdem   Nov-04-04 01:37 PM   #8 
  - What I get from the article is that the premise sounded too "tinfoil hat"  Bush_Eats_Beef   Nov-04-04 01:40 PM   #15 
  - uh, what about kerry and BCCI, Iran Contra  GreenArrow   Nov-04-04 03:12 PM   #43 
  - I'm speaking strictly within the context of the article...  Bush_Eats_Beef   Nov-04-04 03:19 PM   #45 
     - no, the article, as written, makes sense  GreenArrow   Nov-04-04 03:49 PM   #54 
     - That could be it, easily.  Bush_Eats_Beef   Nov-04-04 05:16 PM   #82 
        - Or JK had heard this story before and knew a lot more he was willing to  wrate   Nov-04-04 05:57 PM   #90 
           - Could Iowa hold the key to "hope" to open pandoras box?  shuffnew   Nov-05-04 01:55 PM   #154 
     - We can always try to ask  zidzi   Nov-04-04 03:49 PM   #55 
        - I just asked him to come post here  Stephanie   Nov-04-04 03:57 PM   #57 
           - Thank you, Stephanie!  zidzi   Nov-04-04 04:00 PM   #60 
           - Thanks Stephanie  Bush_Eats_Beef   Nov-04-04 05:12 PM   #79 
  - That makes sense. I introduced the BBV people to Move On  Sterling   Nov-04-04 05:45 PM   #87 
  - Democratic Kerry Operative "Pete, NYC" just posted this in a thread.  KoKo01   Nov-04-04 02:53 PM   #38 
  - Why?  JohnyCanuck   Nov-04-04 03:03 PM   #42 
  - Kerry can't be caught tinfoiling  Tangledog   Nov-04-04 03:33 PM   #49 
     - Kerry is an honorable and honest guy....  MedusaSaur   Nov-04-04 04:03 PM   #61 
     - I think Kerry's been down the tinfoil hat road before  Geek_Girl   Nov-04-04 05:13 PM   #80 
     - I think Gore was the same way. They are honest folks and expect others  KoKo01   Nov-04-04 08:02 PM   #105 
     - The really big problem here  Eloriel   Nov-04-04 08:51 PM   #108 
     - What would be "tinfoil"  CAcyclist   Nov-04-04 10:38 PM   #113 
     - Come on "BIg Red Flag" over Lake Erie....  shuffnew   Nov-05-04 03:05 AM   #136 
  - Think of it this way.  K-W   Nov-04-04 05:21 PM   #83 
  - how come the "liberal" media doesn't pick up on this? n/t  Gut Check   Nov-04-04 01:38 PM   #11 
  - It picks up on it, put after a day or so puts it back on the shelf  Bush_Eats_Beef   Nov-04-04 01:52 PM   #28 
  - Fascinating. I sure thought it was odd that all those black people were  janeaustin   Nov-04-04 01:38 PM   #12 
  - Like in 2000  michaelwb   Nov-04-04 04:19 PM   #66 
  - well then.  sui generis   Nov-04-04 01:38 PM   #13 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Nov-04-04 01:40 PM   #17 
  - Aren't you in the wrong forum? (trying to be polite, though you weren't)  highplainsdem   Nov-04-04 01:48 PM   #25 
  - Maybe I am in the wrong forum  Monist   Nov-04-04 01:53 PM   #29 
     - You have your thoughts on this and  zidzi   Nov-04-04 03:53 PM   #56 
     - "whine, cry, celebrate victimhood"  sui generis   Nov-04-04 04:25 PM   #68 
     - if we don't examine what has happened  ballcap1776   Nov-05-04 10:51 AM   #145 
     - I agree  blurp   Nov-04-04 04:31 PM   #70 
     - Bullshit  Kipepeo   Nov-05-04 11:29 AM   #151 
     - Your dismissing the electronic voting issue as tin-foil hat proves you  ElementaryPenguin   Nov-04-04 05:56 PM   #89 
     - Yep, wrong forum  Is It Fascism Yet   Nov-05-04 02:25 AM   #134 
  - ummm  SpikeTrees   Nov-04-04 01:48 PM   #26 
  - Thank you  Monist   Nov-04-04 01:54 PM   #30 
     - Starting when? n/t  Eloriel   Nov-04-04 08:59 PM   #110 
  - A "better message"?  trotsky   Nov-04-04 01:56 PM   #31 
     - And you know what, people believe this, and will  Angrillori   Nov-04-04 04:44 PM   #76 
  - I've felt this since the returns started coming in.  Borgnine   Nov-04-04 01:42 PM   #18 
  - Me too.  skryabushka   Nov-04-04 02:51 PM   #37 
     - ME TOO! Exit polls and other polls were showing Kerry much  barb1622000   Nov-04-04 03:37 PM   #51 
  - And what's truly baffling about this is...  punpirate   Nov-04-04 01:43 PM   #20 
  - We need to launch a letter-writing campaign. Ensure the integrity of  LiberalAndProud   Nov-04-04 01:46 PM   #24 
  - oh yeah write letters  T Bone   Nov-05-04 12:19 AM   #126 
  - Quite BLAMING THE MACHINE  byronm   Nov-04-04 01:49 PM   #27 
  - Our election system IS broken.  Caliphoto   Nov-04-04 02:46 PM   #36 
  - Oh, i don't disagree with you at all..  byronm   Nov-04-04 04:54 PM   #77 
  - They kept the hearings secret and only activists or folks here on DU  KoKo01   Nov-04-04 02:58 PM   #41 
  - Agree-- any suggestions  spooked911   Nov-04-04 10:29 PM   #112 
  - As soon as someone raises doubt  rniel   Nov-04-04 01:57 PM   #32 
  - Bev Harris is trying to get that evidence. See  highplainsdem   Nov-04-04 02:04 PM   #33 
  - I'm with you.  yardwork   Nov-04-04 02:42 PM   #35 
  - Did you see the nationwide map of all the e-voting machines  ModerateGal   Nov-04-04 02:53 PM   #39 
  - Tx Early Voting - Nationwide Map?  shuffnew   Nov-05-04 02:17 AM   #132 
  - Part of the issue, maybe?  tej   Nov-04-04 02:57 PM   #40 
  - There is No doubt  brettdale   Nov-04-04 03:14 PM   #44 
  - Miller will be on AAR's "Morning Sedition" tomorrow  Bush_Eats_Beef   Nov-04-04 03:23 PM   #46 
     - Are you going to listen?  zidzi   Nov-04-04 03:57 PM   #58 
        - I will try to catch it and post, but if I miss it...  Bush_Eats_Beef   Nov-04-04 05:14 PM   #81 
        - You can always listen later to the mp3  vidali   Nov-04-04 11:45 PM   #121 
  - Make believe campaign (W) for a make believe election  robbedvoter   Nov-04-04 03:24 PM   #47 
  - It's no coincidence  nebula   Nov-04-04 03:27 PM   #48 
  - the election was stolen, I firmly believe this. I am SO angry, so  barb1622000   Nov-04-04 03:35 PM   #50 
  - Thank you, Mark Crispin Miller!  zidzi   Nov-04-04 03:40 PM   #52 
  - Could someone take a sec to define  progressivehere   Nov-04-04 04:17 PM   #65 
  - You put one on to ward off dangerous alien death rays  Stephanie   Nov-04-04 04:22 PM   #67 
     - I lost mine  AZCat   Nov-04-04 04:35 PM   #73 
  - The rest of the US  CAcyclist   Nov-04-04 11:05 PM   #117 
  - Update, please: Uncounted votes in FL, OH?  MedusaSaur   Nov-04-04 04:15 PM   #64 
  - 2004 e-voting US map  ModerateGal   Nov-04-04 04:27 PM   #69 
  - A Patriot Act  Amy6627   Nov-04-04 04:32 PM   #71 
  - A good start: Donate to so they can proceed  moonbeams   Nov-04-04 06:19 PM   #92 
  - Correction!  GregD   Nov-04-04 10:39 PM   #114 
     - thx for the website address correction  moonbeams   Nov-04-04 11:26 PM   #118 
        - There is nothing we can DO!  Amy6627   Nov-05-04 03:17 PM   #159 
  - Nicely said.  Laelth   Nov-04-04 07:16 PM   #99 
  - So hwo the F do we get through to the only  Stew225   Nov-04-04 04:32 PM   #72 
  - Thank you Stephanie  progressivehere   Nov-04-04 04:42 PM   #75 
  - The results don't pass the smell test, that's for sure.  forradalom   Nov-04-04 05:39 PM   #86 
  - The land of the my  Ardee   Nov-04-04 05:53 PM   #88 
  - I am certain that at least OH and FL were stolen from Kerry. You need  wrate   Nov-04-04 06:28 PM   #95 
  - We need to have a paper trail for EVERY vote!  V Lee   Nov-04-04 06:18 PM   #91 
  - vote rigging is a form of (electronic) assassination  ngant17   Nov-04-04 06:24 PM   #93 
  - Welcome to DU and  zidzi   Nov-04-04 07:21 PM   #101 
  - why oh why is NO ONE screaming to rescind the non-taxable status  crozet4clark   Nov-04-04 06:24 PM   #94 
  - The IRS is too busy going after the NAACP. nt  Patiod   Nov-05-04 02:24 PM   #156 
  - From now on  montana_hazeleyes   Nov-04-04 06:31 PM   #97 
  - Word!  zidzi   Nov-04-04 07:22 PM   #102 
  - We have a way out  stupidgit   Nov-04-04 07:53 PM   #103 
  - The vote-stealing situation on the ground should be in all our minds.  bigmonkey   Nov-04-04 08:59 PM   #109 
  - the implications of Republican electronic warfare  teryang   Nov-04-04 09:56 PM   #111 
  - That is the most astounding feature of this whole millenium. So far.  vidali   Nov-04-04 11:40 PM   #120 
  - What's wrong with the Democrats? Why didn't they fight these machines  Kimber Scott   Nov-04-04 10:58 PM   #115 
  - Can someone give me a working link to this article?  XanthaS   Nov-04-04 11:05 PM   #116 
  - First of all, Crispin is an idiot  Nederland   Nov-05-04 12:00 AM   #122 
  - #of Right-Wing Christians?  shuffnew   Nov-05-04 02:33 AM   #135 
  - The exit polls were crap  Nederland   Nov-05-04 11:13 AM   #147 
  - Those figures are even higher than I remembered.  Cat Atomic   Nov-05-04 10:58 AM   #146 
     - Born Again % Count of 44% (not correct)  shuffnew   Nov-05-04 01:50 PM   #153 
  - There is something that can be done  PATRICK   Nov-05-04 12:03 AM   #123 
  - Yes, "Stolen Election 2004"!!! Kerry-Edwards HELP!  shuffnew   Nov-05-04 12:04 AM   #124 
  - They stole this election again!  PROGRESSIVE1   Nov-05-04 12:07 AM   #125 
  - If even 1/4 of us doubt this election,  justgamma   Nov-05-04 12:19 AM   #127 
  - MCM I love ya!  Qst4Q   Nov-05-04 12:23 AM   #128 
  - I know you're probably not going to like what I think but....  dragndust   Nov-05-04 12:55 AM   #129 
  - well said  teryang   Nov-05-04 05:26 AM   #139 
  - michael  merliecurlie   Nov-05-04 01:59 AM   #130 
  - Michael Moore's Email?  shuffnew   Nov-05-04 02:10 AM   #131 
  - 322, Mark  grasswire   Nov-05-04 02:20 AM   #133 
  - What does that mean?  Stephanie   Nov-05-04 07:29 AM   #142 
     - 322  Minstrel Boy   Nov-05-04 08:14 AM   #144 
     - it's the secret sign of Bonesmen  grasswire   Nov-05-04 11:22 AM   #148 
     - It's Skull and Bones code.  grasswire   Nov-05-04 11:24 AM   #150 
     - 322 is the S&B Lodge Number  shuffnew   Nov-05-04 02:12 PM   #155 
        - More on S&B & Lodge 322  shuffnew   Nov-05-04 02:27 PM   #157 
     - S&B Lodge 322 - Bush Presidential Speech 2004 & Hitlers Speech 1933  shuffnew   Nov-05-04 03:08 PM   #158 
  - Kerry's wife ,hire the best investigators ?  NicRic   Nov-05-04 08:13 AM   #143 
  - kick (nt)  Skinner   Nov-05-04 03:41 PM   #160 

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