Reply #88: That is a lie unsustainable by reason.

[Exiled in America]

First of all, let's igore the fact that you're calling someone who disagrees with you a terrorist and all the ways in which that reminds me of our current president's line of reasoning (you did this when you referred to "your side" implying that the person you are responding to must be on the side of the terrorists) --

And let's also ignore the total distraction that is the long-running debate you've chosen to engage in about stolen land or not stolen land --

And let's focus on the facts.

You are arguing that Palestinian combatants (for lack of a better term) deserve the title of terrorists, and deserve the world's condemnation for their tactics and violence, and have been guilty of otrocity. Alternatively though, you argue that the Irsaeli goverment/Amry is not guilty of any otrocity, and does not deserve criticism from the world. Palestinian fighters are evil brutal thugs. Irsaeli fighters are simply doing their job, and any casualties that happen along the way is a sad fact of war started by side.


Ok, there are a huge array of reasons why you are provably, demonstratably wrong. But before we get to those, I'd like to ask you to engage in a little common-sense experiment with me. Let's imagine for a second that it is not Israel, but rather it is the United States that is the subject of this discussion. Let's imagine that someone is pointing out all of the documented cases of US violation of treaty, or the rules of war. Let's imagine someone pointing out the horrors of Abu Garab, or Gitmo, or listing out well supported concrete examples of otrocities committed by US soldiers against civilians (like recent cases of rape and murder) or the use of torture by the US. Let's imagine someone coming to the discussion with documentation from Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch which details United States own poor record on human rights and the ways in which its Amry violate international law, ignore humanitarian treaty, and engage in human rights absuses (all documentation that is out there and available I might add.)

Would you still argue that the US is pure as the driven snow and can do no wrong - and whatever bad things happen to people at the bad end of a US Amry weapon are just sad casualties of war and nothing more? Or would you concede that there are very serious probablys with how the United States is acting in the world today, and very serious problems with how the US Amry has conducted itself in SEVERAL different areas?

Why is it so easy for some folks to be honest about the United States and then REFUSE to apply the same standard of honest rationality to Israel?

The Israeli Amry has a very long and very well documented history of going out of its way to ignore and humanitarian concern. It has a long and well documented history of letting human rights violations go uninvestigated and unprosecuted. The Israeli goverment looks the other way while its Army crosses the line from being a military force fighting a desparate war to defend its country from those who wish it harm into a terrorist group of its own. All one need do is take an unbiased eye and go look at the overwhelming scroes of documentation and clear, concrete evidence detailing in no uncertain terms the specifics of the Israeli Army's long history of moving from military (where humanitarian law and rules still apply...and if you say no, remember that you must then SHUT THE FUCK UP about what America is doing to its prisoners or to civilians in Iraq) to terrorist (where anyting goes and everything is acceptible in the name of your "just" cause.)

Why can't more people take a reasonable "pro" israel stance, instead of an idiotic one that totally ignores reality? Why can't people say this:

"I support Israels right to exist. I also concede that the debate over who's land it was first, at this point in history, is moot. I categorically reject the terrorism employed by Palestinian fighters as unjustified and immoral. I recognize Israels right and need to defend itself. HOWEVER - I also recognize that in the name of defense, the Israeli army has gone far, far outside the rules of war and the rules of law and engaged in reprehensible actions that blur the line between them and the enemy they desire to defend against. I futher recognize that the Israeli goverment allows this behavior in a "the ends justifiy any means" mentality and look the other way to clear evidences of human rights abuses, war crimes, and otrocity. This is also totally unacceptable. Israel does not have liscence to do anything it wants because it is being threatened. And we have a right to demand that they respect international and humanitarian law. "

That's a resonable pro-israel position, and its the only pro-israel position I'm willing to take seriously. If you don't have the balls to be HONEST about the failures of Israel then not only are you a coward and a liar, but you are a waste of my time. I don't have any problem being honest about the absolutely inexcusable actions of Palestinian terrorists and I refuse to justify them no matter how much sympathy I have for innocent palestinian PEOPLE not engaged in the figthing. But I also won't excuse identical actions committed by Iraeli Amry and ignored by Israeli goverment under the argument that "hey they started it, so now anything goes."