What's it going to take to break the Empire?

[Taverner]

And by break, I do not mean meeting opposing military might - I mean what's going to brake the bank??

Every day both Democrats and Republicans say we need to cut programs! Cut Medicare! Cut Food Stamps! Cut Entitlements! Cut anything that might help the least of us!

Today there are between 700 and 800 US military bases in about 130 countries. Right now there's a new country we're at war with - Libya! So that's three ongoing wars (Iraq, AfPak, and Libya) and one smoldering in the background (North Korea.)

This costs money, LOTS of money - not to mention a great deal of diplomacy and deals to politically maintain these bases.

So at what point do we start cutting, and I mean really cutting back the empire?

[aquart]

1. War tax. 90% war tax on gross incomes over $7 million.

You want a quiet, peaceful nation? WAR TAX.

[Beam Me Up]

13. and... you're going to get that passed into law how?

[Matariki]

35. That's a brilliant idea.

Too bad the small percentage of folks with income over $7 million have the largest percent of decision power. :grr:

[Angry Dragon]

2. I believe it will take a huge natural disaster

or to paint the streets red

[Initech]

18. Katrina says hi.

We had a huge natural disaster, and they still just shook it off and acted like it was nothing.

[Angry Dragon]

29. I am talking about a huge disaster

An earthquake that covers many states, something that affects 20% or more of the population

[Taverner]

37. Or China to start demanding we pay them back with Euros...

Or to have our bases overseas overrun by angry locals...

Or to find out that Fort Knox is just vaulting pyrate phony gold....

Or to have an internal terrorist attack (think Randy Weaver, Tim McVeigh) that really does start a civil war...

[Initech]

38. I'm worried we will see that here in Cali in my lifetime.

And I'm worried that FEMA will fuck it up as bad or worse than they did with Katrina.

[RKP5637]

42. It's just a matter of time and I think we will be woefully unprepared. Frankly, with

zillions of people along the coastline, I don't see how one could be prepared. Beyond shoring up buildings, bridges, etc. there are many that are going to be just simply wiped out. We've lived through relatively mild times, but as we know the earth can be very violent.

[BzaDem]

3. Doubt it's going to happen. And few actually want to cut domestic spending because we're "broke."

Republicans would want to do it even if we had a huge surplus, since they don't believe in it in the first place. The small portion of Democrats that favor such cuts often do so because they come from Republican states, or for other political reasons.

We will be going broke if we don't lower healthcare costs significantly, but no one is looking at that right now. That should be a good signal that few care about cuts just for purposes of the deficit.

As for the "empire," I think you'll be waiting a long, long time.

[Bluerthanblue]

5. +1

sad truth.

[RKP5637]

6. What annoys me about heathcare is we always talk of meeting healthcare

costs, but not very often do I hear of bringing them down and why our heathcare costs 50% more than others and is not as good. There are soooo many ripoffs going on. No, this is not a duh moment, I just get sooooooo F'en fed up with it all. One example after another ...

[truedelphi]

12. When people leave the hospital with a bill that is 42 pages long,

You know we need to change the system.

I had a friend who was auditing people's hospital charges. One couple found out through her services that they were being billed for their infant son being circumcised three separate times. (On paper at least.)

But in a world where even voting for "Change we can believe in" still gives us nothing but backroom meetings, and the President's Chief of Staff glad handing the top executives from industry, I don't know how we can really affect these things.

[RKP5637]

44. We don't affect these things apparently. We tried, and we were failed. The people

making these decisions are insular from what is going on. They are a privileged class for the most part and most have no conception of what is going on. Also we now have a corporate bought and corporate run country. It's hard to imagine given the current status quo much will change.

[truedelphi]

45. Your expression "We were failed" says it all.

I think we common people will end up with the mantra from Baghdad that became popular among the Iraqis by mid 2005 "But today is better than tomorrow will be."

And of course, the GE designed nuke reactor that remained online through the political weight created by Bush-regime, American officials is now showing the Japanese people how they "are failed" also.

People of Fukushima wanted their nuke reactors to be decommissioned. Way way back in 2006.

They had the political will to elect a mayor to see that it happened. That man, Mr Sato, got side lined by trumped up bribery charges, and the Bush and GE officials saw to it that the new mayor would go "all nuke."

And the rest is radioactive history.

[RKP5637]

47. It's very sad. n/t

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BzaDem]

19. Something tells me if given the opportunity to live in Bhengazi for the next few months in a world

without intervention, you would happily refuse the offer. Because you are happy to be an armchair intervention critic, as long as you wouldn't have to suffer the consequences of your own preferences.

Considering you are living in a universe that is so factually different than the real universe, I don't think it would be very productive to argue with you about this. Feel free to continue believing in whatever you feel like believing in, and feel free ignoring every moment when your beliefs conflict with reality.

[BeFree]

25. Hey

They come over here and I'll stand and fight to the death.
ETA: They are here and I am fighting. Why not join us?

So take your high minded bs and tackle the republicans for a change.

And, if you are brave enough, work to end this stupid ass empire.
But will you? I think you happily refuse.

[BzaDem]

28. But they're not over here. They're over there.

Apparently, you feel that because you won the country-of-birth lottery, what happens to them over there isn't something to get all concerned about (at least not concerned enough to stop it).

[BeFree]

31. They are here

I call them bushco. And nuke plant operators. And dirty coal operators and other polluters.
And crooked politicians.

I suggest you fucking stop assuming a god damn thing about me because you are beginning to look like a real arse.

[DeSwiss]

4. One thing.

http://www.disclosureproject.org/">Disclosure.

[RKP5637]

10. Frankly if we knew about 20% of what is going on I bet the entire populace would

be totally freaked out. It's a huge universe and we ain't even a speck of sand.

[Taverner]

11. I dunno - on UFOs I think Bill Maher was right

How were they able to keep this secret, but nothing else?

[Beam Me Up]

14. What?

We don't know what they've kept secret. There is a whole classification category that is so classified that government agents can't even acknowledge it exists, let alone that it is classified.

But it isn't really about keeping shit "secret". It is about perception management. It is about seeding disinformation along with the information; keeping people all riled up, divided and at each others throats, disagreeing about ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING -- just so long as we never have a clear, agreed upon understanding of the corrupt system that controls us and what could be done to change it.

[RKP5637]

23. +1000 +++ Exactly, keep 'em so confused with so much info., disinformation, gaps and

outright lies I bet even the real secret keepers might get confused. It's a precise game, they have it down to a science. No wonder there are so many F'ed up people in this country that are screwed up and delusional.

[DeSwiss]

26. I like Bill Maher, but with all due respect, he's a comedian.

And while he may speak truth to power, he's not a reporter. I also like Jon Stewart as well but he's also a comedian. In the absence of real reporters and journalists today, it seems that we've gotten to the point of relying upon and quoting comedians because we know that in between the jokes and the jibes, they often tell the truth. As the court jesters of old did. But they do it only for the laughs. And the money.

The Disclosure Project is made up mostly of professionals. Medical personnel. Doctors, Former military officers Former military missile command officers. Civilian and military radar operators. Civilian and military airline pilots. You know, people that we routinely believe under every other kind of circumstance and whom we often put our lives in their hands.

We should probably at least listen to them.

As for Bill's comment this is not like any other secret. This secret changes EVERYTHING. Okay? EVERYTHING.

This secret's revelation would logically lead to the elimination of the current power structure in the world. So that's why they don't acknowledge it. They don't keep it secret so much because they can't. Too many cameras out there now. Too much evidence of the truth already. So they just deny anything is going on at all. And they remain silent when pertinent questions are asked. As NASA did with the now famous "Tether Incident" aboard the Space Shuttle Columbia in 1996, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As-wYmFYb3I">which is just one among the many other incidents they themselves have recorded.

And it has been stated that "they've" killed those who talked individually. Given our country's track record in blood and gore and death, I'm inclined not to doubt they would for a second.

That's why this group of 117 came out en masse. There is safety in numbers.

But http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vyVe-6YdUk">"Disclosure" is coming.

Soon.

It can't be stopped.

Now, it's mostly just a matter of "how."

[Taverner]

32. Extrordinary Claims demand Extrordinary Evidence

If they've got it, they've got it

If it's just a bunch of blurry pictures of frisbees and ball lightening, then excuse me if I turn elsewhere

I remember "disclosure" of a Face, a Pyramid, and a bunch of irrational numerology on Mars in the nineties, by "respected" "scientist" Richard Hoagland. Then when they rephotographed Mars, it turned out to just be a shadow.

So excuse me if I side with James Randi on this one.

[Taverner]

34. A little more info on Dr. Greer:

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/swift-blog/729-trying-another-approach.html

A couple weeks ago, a relative of mine who embraces all manner of woo emailed me a flyer, a copy of which can be seen here. It announces one of a series of seminars presented by Dr. Stephen Greer, a man who claims to be able to summon extraterrestrials through the use of telepathy. Over the years, this relative and I have gone back and forth repeatedly on the odds of aliens visiting this planet, the need for experimental data, burden of proof, etc. Rather than hash that out again, I decided to approach it from a different angle.

Let's suppose for a moment that Dr. Greer has precisely what he says he has: 100% proof, beyond a shadow of a doubt, of the existence not only of extraterrestrials and their technology, but also the telepathic abilities needed to communicate with them. This knowledge would be the single most important discovery in all of history, revolutionizing the world, accelerating us far beyond what the Scientific Revolution ever did, and bringing about a golden age of mankind. So, what are his options?

1) Tell the authorities. Even assuming some nebulous agency wants to keep the lid on this, "the government" is vast and is not composed of a hive mind, as conspiracy theorists seem to imply. He could tell his Senator, his Representative, his Governor, the mayor, or any one of hundreds of thousands of people who represent "the government" whose career could be advanced or whose sense of altruism could be fulfilled with the release of this knowledge. They can't all be "in on it".

2) Tell the media. Like the government, there is a wide range of avenues open, and "They" can't be successfully intimidating everyone. There are still Woodwards and Bernsteins out there for whom such an exposé would guarantee a Pulitzer Prize, untold riches, and worldwide fame. The headline on the front of The New York Times would eclipse "Dewey Defeats Truman" for all eternity. Finally, the government cover-up would keep every able-bodied reporter in the nation employed for years.

3) Tell private businesses. Go to Ted Turner, Bill Gates, or Richard Branson. Go to Lockheed-Martin, IBM, or GM. Go to the CEO of any one of hundreds of companies that are on the verge of bankruptcy and tell them you can provide technology that will guarantee dominance over the competition for decades or longer.

4) Tell the world. We are rather insular and tend to forget that the U.S. is only one nation among many. Knowledge of otherwordly entities would have worldwide ramifications and should be dealt with on a planetary scale. If the U.S. government, media and private business all turn a blind eye, there are hundreds of thousands of additional outlets across the globe.

5) Tell James Randi. Randi has a standing offer of $1,000,000 to anyone who can prove such a thing. Surely this would go a long way toward solving any financial difficulties this man may have.

So which option did he select? None of them. Instead, he holds seminars for the scientifically illiterate to pay $175 each to attend. Not only is this a singularly ineffective way to get the word out, it is scientifically immoral. Scientists do not charge each other for access to their data, nor do they leave it up to the general public to decide if it is valid. Rather, they write up their research and submit it to a peer-reviewed publication where it can be judged and tested by scientists everywhere.

Ignoring for the moment the validity of his information and considering only how he has chosen to disseminate it, the only conclusion I can come to is that he is either a fraud or exceptionally stupid. You can guess which one I'm leaning towards.

[DeSwiss]

40. Peace be unto you. n/t

[RKP5637]

41. And MSM giggles and brushes it off sounding like a bunch of simpletons. The

stupidity is appalling, the geocentric attitude of many is ridiculous. It's painfully obvious how many are lacking in even a basic knowledge of physics and astronomy. ... like they have a firm grasp of the mechanics of the universe and the probabilities of unknown events unfolding.

[RickFromMN]

7. Do the Republicans wish to cut FEMA? If not, why not?

[RKP5637]

8. Sadly as long as profits are being made by someone and they have enough power nothing

is going to change.

[HughBeaumont]

15. Start making the wealthy afraid.

They're running this show.

They're stealing and amassing all the cash.

They're successfully dividing and conquering voting/working/eating America.

Strike and then start making them FEAR US.

But hey, that's not likely to happen.

After all, you have more than a few million people who don't even begrudge the wealthy for doing what they want to with their incomes, nor do they feel the need to take them to task for trying to gain millions upon millions more when income disparity is ridiculously high, as is poverty and homelessness.

Then there are the Horatio Alger believers. Those are always good for a laugh.

They don't fear us. At all. And that, THAT is why this all continues.

[Beam Me Up]

17. be more precise. what would they fear?

the certainly don't have anything to fear from us so long as we remain as we are.

[Beam Me Up]

16. create a currency whose value can not be controlled by any central agency

ultimately the system is a hierarchy of control

what those in high places fear most is the destruction of that hierarchical system...

this is why (for example) they are so dead set against renewable energy sources. renewable energy is inherently decentralizing and, therefore, much more difficult to control the market

now, if we (meaning the citizens of this planet) could devise and begin to trade in a currency whose value was established independently of the current monetary systems we might be able to literally break the banks of the empire

edit typo

[BzaDem]

21. If we followed your proposal, we would be back to having depressions and panics every few decades

that would make the great depression look like the tech boom. As we did back when we were on the gold standard.

[Beam Me Up]

33. no. you don't get it. we've never had a currency whose value

was not determined by centralized entities (eg banks).

[Initech]

20. End the wars - and tax rich people.

Of course the media is too chickenshit to address this but it would solve all or most of our problems.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. What you are seeing are the last stage of all Empires

when it starts consuming it's own.

It is coming. And it will be sudden

[jwirr]

24. A couple more wars. We cannot afford the ones we already have. nt

[Snoutport]

27. We must ask Yoda

[krabigirl]

30. One day, we really will just be bankrupt.

[Motown_Johnny]

36. Jedi

[HEyHEY]

39. You're not a "war" with Libya, yo're enforcing a UN resolution

As well, the empire ain't going anywhere until China can be trusted.

[Iterate]

50. How long do you think that will be?

Serious question, no gamesmanship.

And no, I have no notions of "the looming struggle with China" nonsense. In fact, I was shocked and sickened when I first encountered it on US media, which I see rarely.

[pampango]

43. Let Norway run the UN. A "firm believer" in "the importance of an UN-led world order".

http://www.norwaypost.no/news/norway-offers-f-16-jet-fighters-to-libya-mission-24911.html

Støre said that Norway strongly supports the historic resolution adopted by the Security Council two days ago. For the first time, the Security Council invokes the principle of Responsibility to Protect as the primary reason for authorizing the use of force against a Member State.

As a firm believer in this novel principle, and in the importance of an UN-led world order, Norway stands ready to contribute to its full implementation, through political, military and humanitarian means, the Prime Minister said.

More accurately would be to say that a Norwegian mind set should prevail. The UN is far from perfect but it is closest we have to a body that has representation from people from all over the world. As a global empire declines what better to take its place. Not a new "emperor" but the former "subjects" banding together. (They could just revel in the riddance of the emperor, but there is always a new emperor out there looking to take over from the old one.)

If the "old emperor" and the former "subjects" re smart, they won't wait for the "new" emperor (probably China, maybe and/or India) to take over as we did from the UK, but help to structure an international way of dealing with global issues that minimizes the risk of a new "emperor".

[kohodog]

46. Hasn't it been said that Afghanistan is the graveyard of Empires?

The wars will bankrupt the US, like Russia. The richy riches will continue to party in their gated communities.

[Astraea]

48. bankruptcy would be my guess

We've managed to keep our head above water, but there's always a threshold that, once crossed, has dire consequences for the empire's existence. Unfortunately, it's likely that the average citizen will also suffer as a result.

[sarcasmo]

49. China bombing us the way we have bombs so many others.