I know rich people.

[Chris_Texas]

First, for perspective, a little about me.

My wife and daughter and I are poor. My wife earns $8.50 per hour on average. She has no benefits. Nor will her pay go up. I work for myself at a business I started a few years ago. After expenses I probably earn about the same, maybe less, but we are sticking it out because it is possible things will improve and there are no other jobs anyway.

We have two cars, both are about ten years old and in bad shape. We cannot afford to replace or fix them. If they die we are finished. We don't have TV. We don't drink or use drugs. We have internet and books for entertainment. We both have health problems but cannot afford to see the doctor or dentist. We live in a rat trap house that's falling apart; the roof leaks when it rains and my bathroom floor is rotting out. We cannot collect food stamps or other assistance because the state has issues with my job -- I am not sure what those issues are exactly, but I suspect that it is mostly a matter of them denying benefits to as many people as they can to save money.

I suspect many of you can look at the above and come up with all kinds of "bootstraps" plans and suggestions. Thanks, but please save them. Things always look easy when you are looking in from the outside. Poverty is not only a condition of the wallet, it is a hangman's noose throttling your soul and drive and hope. When you look ahead and see only icebergs on the horizon, and your ship is driving towards them at full speed, well, you tend to cling to your petty vices. In other words, it's easy to work harder and make sacrifices when you believe you will get something in exchange; when you are poor all exchanges are from bad to worse, so you hang onto everything you have.

But I know rich people.

My mom is rich. She is worth tens of millions. She has homes (okay, let's be honest here, mansions) in some of the wealthiest communities in America, and her hobby is buying and selling them. She just finished closing on one a couple months ago, and already has her eyes on yet another -- according to her this last one is just too darn big (I told her that's what doors were invented for) but this next one will be perfect (which is, of course, what she says about all of them until she buys them). Now you might think that with a collection of houses all over the country, from the gated communities on the California coast to the ski resorts in the mountains of Utah or Colorado, that she probably spends a lot of her time at home. Not so. Two reasons.

First, any house she owns is in a constant state of construction. She buys them and then drops a couple hundred-grand correcting invisible flaws (before tiring of them and buying another). Second, when you are really rich you travel. Home is a place for entertaining your rich friends in between adventures, and if that home is in Switzerland in March, then Tahoe in November, so much the better. I could not list the homes she has bought and sold or the places she has been if I tried. She tells me about them all, gleefully I might add, but it's all really just a blur. Nor could I tell you where she is now, she could be in California, or Switzerland, or Russia, though now that I am typing this I believe she did say something about spending a few months in Greece. Who knows, and really who the fuck cares.

She exists in another reality. As a rich person, if you are not perfectly satisfied with the number of drawers in your kitchen, if the swirls in the marble of your bathroom conflict with your inner harmony, if you look in the mirror and discover a wrinkle or sag, there are experts on standby to fix all of them. The challenges are not how to get through the day or week or month or winter, but rather how you appear to your friends. It is apparently difficult to flush mountains of money without diving into the pool of tacky. See, the rich also like to economize. For them it's cool. They are making sacrifices, they struggle just like everyone, and they really want to tell you about it. The new Porche is on hold for a bit, and when they were staying in Versailles they made do with only a single toenail flosser.

Okay, I made that last one up. No one could get by with just one.

The one thing that I have seen, from her and what I hear about her friends, is that rich people are entirely self absorbed. They do nothing for anyone unless it benefits them in some way. If, on their way to breakfast, they walked past a homeless guy that some punks had set on fire, they would phone the police and, with horror in their voices, complain that the smoke and screaming were disrupting their morning brunch. Then they would call their friends to tell them the great story. The one thing they would never feel is compassion. They genuinely care only about themselves. If you want to find compassion for others you have to go to the bottom of the barrel; when people know what real suffering is they are more willing to help mitigate it in others. When you are rich you compete with your friends, when you are poor you want to help them.

I do not believe in god or divine justice. It's a cool idea, but laughable when you look at the injustice in the world around us. If some supernatural entity cared about such things then why wait? But while I don't believe in invisible, impotent, or uncaring gods, I do believe in evil. There is a whiff of it every time I deal with my mom or hear about one of her friends. When I think to myself, this lady (mom or not) spent enough money on her last adventure to send every one of her grandkids to college, and the bitch is relishing telling us all about it and sending us fucking pictures of all these wonderful things we will never ever see, well, what else can I call it? It's twisted.

I cannot imagine living that way knowing that people in my own family are struggling. It's just inconceivable to me. Rather than feeling proud and excited about my latest trip or toy, I would feel ashamed, and if I did go on such a jaunt I would probably try to hide it. I damn sure wouldn't email pictures to my slum-family telling them what a great time I am having. But then, I am not rich.

[liberal N proud]

1. When you are rich you compete with your friends, when you are poor you want to help

I like that statement, it is so true.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[grasswire]

8. boilerplate kneejerk

"but there are also poor people who really dont mind living on welfare. who have no intention of ever getting a job."

Do you really think that any living soul would rather live in poverty than get paid a living wage to work?

Yes, some would rather live in poverty than pull the entrails out of chickens in a stinking factory farm, or clean toilets, or break rocks in blistering road work -- because the pay is so damned poor!

If a person is paid a living wage for their work, then the choice is more clear.

[Bandit]

15. The differenc though is as a Liberal I am willing to care for even those that refuse to work

rather than buy one bomb to kill people with..I would much rather my tax money go to support even the most lazy amongst us than to purchase even one bullet to kill people with..Conservative on the other hand want to kill as many as possible so there is more for them..

[Shiver]

35. No, this is unfortunately true.

I work in a grocery store. I see people come in, completely unashamed - some even proud - to have their food stamps. I've overheard some complain to their friends about having to get a job and losing their food stamps, and not because they'd be kicked off the program due to making too much. They were upset about having to use their paycheck to buy food, and not having enough for $50 of Ketel One vodka or a new designer jacket.

This is a very small minority, I want to add. Most people are exactly like you say, preferring to work a living wage and struggling to get out of poverty. But there is that small minority who are, for all intents and purposes, abusing the system.

Edit to add: Again, I want to emphasize this is a small, very small percentage of the people on welfare. And I realize some people may look at me funny to coming close to validating GOP lies or talking points.

[bigmonkey]

66. The reason it works as a talking point is that it has some barely minimal anecdotal validity.

The number of such "problem" people is ignorable, but nonzero, so the stories get passed around and inflated by interested parties until they affect policy. It's an exploitation of the kind of "I know a guy who knew a guy" fringe of knowledge that also promotes urban myths.

There's a guy who's been asking for handouts on a street I walk down nearly every day, and he's been there for about 8-10 years. Somebody working at one of the restaurants I frequent on that street told me one day that the guy had quit panhandling and gotten a job for a while, but quit the job because he made more panhandling. I got angry, and started avoiding going down that street to avoid seeing him, but then I realized precisely what someone said upthread - that most likely means that it was a really crappy wage that he was getting!

So my conclusion is that people need better wages, and the fact that a completely insignificant number of folks will abuse any system is completely irrelevant.

[eShirl]

81. well, you *are* implying that people should be ashamed to be on food stamps

"I see people come in, completely unashamed - some even proud - to have their food stamps."

[Confusious]

91. They should be, if they make a life of it.

If one uses it as a helping hand, there's nothing to be ashamed of.

Other people shouldn't make them feel ashamed though.

[Chris_Texas]

144. Is it possible that what you see as "pride" is instead over-compensation?

[Confusious]

164. I didn't see anything as "pride."

You're confusing me with another poster.

[BanzaiBonnie]

226. I agree, it might not be pride at all

It may be relief that they can even get food. Did you ever engage them and ask? Or are you just guessing? We can get things really wrong sometimes when we guess what someone else is thinking or feeling.

[dotymed]

172. I have a 14 y. o. son

I am ashamed of the way I have had to (not) provide for him, while his sisters were brought up in a financially stable household, very ashamed. But when I get our F.S., all $224 on the 8th of each month, I run to the grocery. I am not embarrassed (anymore) when I present that FS card (that J P Morgan/Chase is paid to issue and handle :party: ) I am hungry and I know that for a week anyway, I can eat full portions instead of putting the "lions Share" on my sons plate...
I used to be very proud and volunteer for my community daily. now I realize that by existing, I am selfish. My Son would get a monthly check.....

[rhett o rick]

201. They know little else. They have little education and no training to get jobs except

those that require food stamps to subsist.

[Oak2004]

255. And education would eliminate society's needs for janitors?

"Education" is a ridiculous panacea. Manual labor and routine jobs exist because society needs those tasks to be performed. If everyone in America had a Ph.D., we'd still need janitors and fast food workers and waitpeople and all those other jobs that don't require a college education. The only thing that would change would be that the minimum educational requirements for a janitorial job would be a Ph.D.

We don't need "more education" to solve the poverty problem. We need to solve the poverty problem by getting the money back that the rich have stolen through various means, and reinvesting it in our communities by, for example, paying people who work with their hands a living wage. Then, with more money in the pockets of ordinary people, we might be able to expand education, too. Just don't ever think that we'll be able to educate ourselves out of needing people who work with their hands.

[rhett o rick]

270. I agree we need to redistribute the wealth but that is a different problem than what I am talking

about. I meet a lot of people in poverty. Most are from families that go back generations in poverty. They seem to accept it and no little else. I dont blame them, but many leave high school with no education. They cant do a job interview, they cant run a cash register, they havent learned the simple skills to apply themselves to work. Again, I dont blame them, I blame society. Most of them will tell you there is nothing out there for them. They are usually just trying to survive day by day. These are not the janitors.

[Oak2004]

252. Ah, so as a disabled person, I should live the rest of my life in shame?

Might I suggest that it is you who should be ashamed of yourself?

[lunasun]

102. The nerve of them not to hide their face or hang their head in shame! Some come out in the daylight

ANd what constitutes someone being 'proud' of their food stamps> are they shouting it out or flashing them in someone's face going naw naw naw????
Know All Mindreaders so many of them around but as they use their all knowing powers even now as they read this I will state I am not on food stamps for the assumption makers sake.

[Shiver]

116. This will probably be disbelieved...

But I have seen just that. I've also seen people who are incredibly grateful to finally have food stamps, so they can provide for their family despite a low wage. I'm not saying they should be ashamed - that was either me misspeaking or me being misinterpreted. What I meant was there are people proud to be on food stamps, and not because they can provide for their families now. I get a lot of shifts in the liquor store, and I see people who I've seen in the main store, who paid for their food with food stamps, dropping fifty bucks on a bottle of vodka.

Maybe this isn't very liberal of me. I don't know their full situation, after all, and it could be entirely because they have very low wages at their jobs. But when someone rations every dollar of their EBT card, and then goes into the liquor store and spends just as much money on one bottle of booze, then something is wrong. The vast majority do not abuse the system, but the tiny fraction who do tend to stand out.

And that's not even touching on the illegal stuff I've seen regarding food stamps.

[Doremus]

211. "Maybe this isn't very liberal of me"

My, my. There's quite an epidemic of such lamentations on these boards lately.

Quite the epidemic indeed. :eyes:


But you and others have given me a great idea. I think we should have all food stamp recipients be undercover posters on political boards to earn their way. Whatchathink?

[Shiver]

243. Brilliant!

But... what if they make too much money to stay on food stamps? Then they'd have to be let go, which would cause them to lose income, which would cause them to go on food stamps again...

[xphile]

273. I don't believe you. I think what you're "seeing" is a projection of your

assumptions of the attitudes of these people whom you clearly look down your nose at.

[JDPriestly]

148. Why should anyone be ashamed of being on food stamps?

Unemployment is extremely high. A person who goes out and gets food stamps in order to feed himself and his family is to be commended. We pay our taxes so that people don't have to go hungry in this country.

Do you also oppose farm subsidies?

How about oil subsidies?

I am happy that people do not go hungry in the US. Sometimes people have disabilities or mental illness or other things that make them unemployable. Sometimes they cannot work because they care for a very ill family member.

It is not easy to qualify for food stamps. I have a friend who had a minimal amount of money in a bank account which remained from an inheritance she had received. She had to spend that down before she could qualify for food stamps. I believe that you are misinformed.

[Shiver]

153. Unashamed was the wrong word to use,

as it implies they should be ashamed, which is not at all what I meant. My apologies for that.

My point is there are people who abuse the system. There will always be people who abuse the system, no matter what that system is. Humans are crafty people, and if they can find a loophole, they will take it. Food stamps are an unfortunate necessity in this country, and millions depend on them and don't abuse the system. But there are a minute, tiny fraction of those that do. Are they the cause of all of our country's ills? Fuck no, not by a longshot.

But they do exist. Which is all I was trying to say.

[JHB]

219. For what it's worth, I understood what you meant

Every system has its "rule weasels". The same personality types (with more money and connections) are practically running Wall Street. They're not the majority, but they're everywhere. Churches have them, unions have them, hell, hobbies have them.

You can "police" for them to keep a lid on their abuses, but there's no way to completely eliminate this behavior without adding so many rules it hamstrings everyone else.

[Confusious]

90. As I believe Jefferson once said

I would have 100 guilty go free then have an innocent spend 1 day in prison.

It applies to other things also.

It may have also been said by someone else.

[I Have A Dream]

245. I think that this is one of the major differences...

between liberals and conservatives. There will always be people who will take advantage of the system. After all efforts are made to fill in the major holes that allow such abuse, there will still be a few people remaining who will find a way to abuse the system. At that point, there are two choices:

1. Help people who truly need help even though it means that those few people will be able to abuse the system.

2. Don't help people who are truly in need to prevent those few people from abusing the system.


In my opinion, most liberals would choose option 1, and most conservatives would choose option 2. (There are a few true compassionate conservatives who would choose option 1, but, in my experience, they're definitely the exception rather than the rule.)

[Hippo_Tron]

266. It's the difference between those who think rationally about these things and those who do not

Republican propaganda works because many people form their political decisions based on emotions rather than on rational arguments. In this instance they play on jealousy, which is a basic part of human nature.

Notice whenever Republicans make an argument along these lines they will say something like "Look over there, it's a welfare queen buying fancy beer and cake that you can't afford with your tax money" or "Look over there, it's a teacher with better health benefits than you have". What they don't do, is explain why it's the teacher's fault or the "welfare queen"'s fault that we don't have fancy beer and cake or better health benefits. The reason they don't is that they don't have to, because it's an argument that is based on emotions rather than logic. Instinctively we are conditioned to be jealous of the "welfare queen" and the teacher since people are telling us they have something better than we do.

Now, if you ever stop and think about it rationally for two seconds, you realize that your jealousy is absurd, and that we spend far more tax money on unnecessary wars and tax cuts for the rich than we do on teachers and "welfare queens". But too many people don't stop and think about it rationally. They just act on their emotions.

[trueblue2007]

117. i know this to be true too.

we live on a "houseboat '''''' "floating home" === there are 8 houseboats in our moorage. one HUGE boathouse and the owner has his yhary stored there

The man who owns this is millionarre. he is old, has alzheimers and his daughter has power of attorney and slapped him in a nursing home.

THE PEOPLE ARE SLUM LORDS. We have NOT had adequate lighting in 6 years. One ramp doesn't even have a hand rail and people have fallen down the dike and could have really been hurt.

the owners kid lives here and has a dog. rather than taking his dog up someplace to do his "business" .... he lets the dog crap on a dock then throws the crap in the river.

Our water is dangerous to drink.

They never clean the dock. It is slimey with algae, mud, and debris ..... and that is how i fell last year.... slipping on a "common area" that is supposed to be safe. I got a torn rotator cuff and it turned into frozen shoulder. 3 ptjer people have slipped at that place. i guess i was just so lucky to be the person who fell and got hurt

THEY DON'T TAKE CARE OF THIS PLACE, THEY ONLY TAKE OUR MONEY. I complained to the city and FINALLY THEY ARE CLEANING THIS PLACE UP. AND.... because hibby took good pictures of the sloppy dangerous area and i got a good orthopedist and pt and good attorney, i will sue for negligence. The pain i havw been though has been horrible. i hope i don't have nerve damage in my arm for the rest of my life.

I HATE RICH PEOPLE !!!!

[JDPriestly]

147. Shiver, I do not believe your story.

"They were upset about having to use their paycheck to buy food, and not having enough for $50 of Ketel One vodka or a new designer jacket."

To qualify for food stamps, you must show that you have no more than very minimal income.

It is incredible that someone on food stamps would be talking about spending $50 for a designer jacket. First of all, designer jackets cost more than $50.

Have you ever been on food stamps? Do you know the rigmarole you have to go through to get them?

Nonsense.

[Shiver]

149. Why would I lie about this?

And I know designer jackets cost more than $50 dollars. A large bottle of Ketel One is $50. That wasn't my point.

I have never been on food stamps, no, and I don't know the process for getting them. I looked into it once, when I had a girlfriend who thought we should get them because she was too lazy to go out and look for a job couldn't find a job, but I had never been seriously considering it.

What I've seen and overheard from customers at work may just be people who have really messed up priorities when it comes to their money. I have no idea. I don't know them. But, as I've stated, I think it's rather fucked up when people ration their food stamps with great care, then pull out a $100 bill to buy a bottle of vodka and a pack of cigarettes. And despite your disbelief, I have seen exactly that more times than I would care to count.

[JDPriestly]

157. Why would someone (not you of course) lie about this?

Possible reason:

1) because that person was are trying to assuage his conscience for being a rather selfish, smug, self-righteous individual.

2) because the person wants to make people on DU who may be receiving food stamps feel bad.

3) because the person wants to get a rise out of DUers and show how superior the person trying to get the rise is.

4) because the person is just mean and greedy, even worse than the person in No. 1.

For every person who is on food stamps and isn't trying to get a job, there are probably many people who earn a good living and don't want to pay taxes. For every person who really cheats to get food stamps (hardly worth it when you consider how restricted their use is and how little money they are really worth), there are probably several rich people who cheat on their taxes or hide their money in order to avoid having to pay a fair share of taxes.

When jobs are plentiful, people work. It is as simple as that.

Right now, it is very difficult to get a job. Bernanke says it won't get much better during the next five years.

We have much more important problems than the few people who might be getting food stamps and could be working.

There are not enough jobs to go around, so let the people who want to work get the jobs and let the people who really don't want to work get the food stamps. It might be different if jobs were plentiful and employers were looking for workers. But that is not the case.

[Shiver]

159. Agreed, completely.

I'd like to say I don't fit into any of those four. I do fit into a fifth category, however, in that I get annoyed with customers who make my job difficult, but that's not limited to people with food stamps (although there are people who know they have a certain amount left on their cards, yet still come through my line with a cart loaded with groceries and end up having to send half of the items back, but not before spending an inordinate amount of time deciding what goes back. That's really, really annoying, especially when you're the only cashier and you have a line going all the way back to the peanut butter, but I digress.)

I have no intention nor desire to demonize people, make people feel bad, or make myself feel superior. I agree with everything you said. I was merely relating that I have seen abuses with the system, but like you said, and I know I have said in a few other posts, they are a very small percentage of the people receiving such assistance.

[Name removed]

165. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[no limit]

209. Why would someone that doesn't have money for alcohol be drinking $50 vodka?

When you could get the same for $10. Any one I know that lives on a low income and drinks never buys expensive alcohol, infact they simply don't understand why anyone would pay $50 for a bottle of vodka.

Your story doesn't pass the smell test.

[Shiver]

212. That was a single case, which I haven't seen repeated.

But I have seen people buy alcohol ranging from $5 - $50, and then pay for their groceries with food stamps.

Why? I don't know. I don't know the people in my brief story, or anyone else I've mentioned, beyond my brief interaction with them when they pay. I only said what I heard them say, but hell, I could have easily misheard. Maybe someone gave them the money for the booze because they knew they'd be going to the store? Maybe they saved for weeks and are buying the good stuff for a celebration? Maybe they're not so good with prioritizing their spending and think alcohol is more important than rent?

I have no idea. I'm not allowed to inquire into the financial situations of the customers.

I work over half my shifts in a liquor store, and I have no idea why anyone would pay $50 for a bottle of vodka. That's because I don't drink, though - working in a liquor store will kill any desire to drink from you.

[no limit]

217. Or maybe you shouldn't repeat bullshit stories you don't know the facts behind on the internet?

Usually if I hear something but there is a good chance I might have misheard it I don't go around repeating it. You certainly didn't give any suggestion that you might have misheard this conversation when you first posted it here.

Also, originally you said you worked in a grocery store. Now it's a liquor store?

And finally I will repeat. Anyone that has trouble paying rent will not be buying a $50 bottle of vodka. Period.

[Shiver]

222. The liquor store is attached to the grocery store, and is considere the same store.

Is that combination just a Wisconsin thing? Half the people I mention that to seem surprised.

And yeah, I probably shouldn't have told that story. But there are people who have trouble paying rent spending money on things they shouldn't. My roommates back in college did it all the fucking time.

[hunter]

249. My crazy grandma used to pay her neighbors to buy her vodka and cigarettes.

I'm certain eyebrows were raised when people paying for groceries with food stamps also bought good brand cigarettes and alcohol. It wasn't for themselves, it was for my crazy grandma with her well-earned pension who didn't want to leave the house.

[Shiver]

251. Definitely another possiblity.

And one I hadn't thought of until I had to defend myself on this thread.

[RaleighNCDUer]

223. I can think of one.

Person on foodstamps is an unemployed salesman/professional and he is going to be entertaining a potential boss/client. The food he buys doesn't say "bought through food assistance" and and high quality booze says "I'm not desperate" - because as we all know, NOBODY wants to hire the unemployed. Too risky. The only safe hire is someone who doesn't NEED the job.

You're right - a poor person buying for himself will buy the best/cheapest booze available. $10 vodka does the job just as well as $50 vodka.

[Zoeisright]

155. I don't believe it either.

It's just more right wing bullshit talking points trying to get people who have a little to hate people who have nothing so the rich can continue stealing all the money.

[Shiver]

158. I'm not repeating any talking points.

This was something I witnessed first-hand. I don't hate anyone, and, as I have stated in other posts on this thread, I don't know these people. They may have simply been very bad with money, prioritizing the wrong things. And I have also stated that people like this are in a very small, almost insignificant minority committing very minor abuses that have a negligible effect. Of course the real problem is the wealthy money-hoarders.

[U4ikLefty]

161. Same "very small minority" that drives the Cadillac bought from their welfare check.

Damn, them poor people!!1!1

[Rockholm]

185. That is always the clincher.

The sad reality is that there are people who had means at one point and are down on their luck currently. A good friend is a volunteer at the local foor pantry. She has said there are people who were once volunteers are now clients.
So, someone who has a good home and good cars loses their jobs and become poor. Once they spend down savings, they qualify for assistance. Who am I to judge if the have a Benz and are using food stamps. Maybe if they are black and have the Cadillac, then I should raise the red flag? Stereotypes are dangerous, demonizing and just plain wrong.

[Shiver]

187. Yeah, was wondering when someone would bring that up.

Never seen that, and please add some seasoning to those words before you put them in my mouth. They taste a little bland.

[Jackpine Radical]

224. Regardless, society is hurt much less by a few poor people

playing the system and getting away with something than by large numbers of rich people buying the government and the media and getting away with whatever they want.

[Shiver]

229. Agreed completely.

Maybe I should have said that in my first post in the thread...

[rdking647]

53. some choose to be lazy

it may be a small number but there are some peple who would rather milk the system than get a job.. you can deny it all you want but the fact is there are some people who wold rather just get a check than work..

[Lorien]

56. True. But most of those people aren't milking the system (it's VERY hard to get

public assistance in most States) they're finding ways of milking their friends and family. I've met a few; they become furious when anyone suggests that they work for a living, because they see working for someone else as "selling my soul." and have serious issues with any kind of authority. One poster here was enraged that a new public housing project required those receiving free housing to meet with a social worker once a month. She didn't think that ANYTHING should be required of someone who was given a free apartment or condo. But the purpose of the social worker wasn't to drug test the tenants or shame them; it was to help them find decent employment and/ or deal with their illnesses, depression or addiction. The poster, a person who makes EVERY thread on DU a thread about poor people (and herself in particular), believed that anything that is not a no-strings-attached handout is pure tyranny. That's the kind of person that the Right focuses on when attacking the majority of poor people who ARE doing everything possible to pull themselves out of desperation.

When I lived on $80.00 a month in the unheated basement of a ramshackle home in the ghettos, eating only Ramen noodles and terribly malnourished, I applied for every job I could find (Reagan era-jobs were scarce) until I finally landed a job as a busperson at Bob Evans. Being poor, hungry, cold and sharing your bed with spiders and cockroaches at night is MUCH harder living than having any job out there. No one outside of the profoundly mentally ill would "choose" it.

[Oak2004]

254. Sorry, but I too would object to meeting with a social worker as a condition of my housing

The vast majority of the social workers who prey upon poor people (and "prey" is the kindest thing I can say about people who make a middle class living humiliating poor people) are worse than useless. The problem with poverty in America is not individual failings -- it is structural. Social workers can do nothing to change the economic system. They can't make more jobs happen. They can't make those jobs pay enough to get people out of poverty.

Even if every homeless person in America were mentally ill or on drugs, and social workers were capable of magically curing each and every one of them, we would still have homelessness, joblessness, and poverty. Even if poverty income was managed perfectly through the very best possible budgeting, the perfect budgeter still would be unable to afford a home. Even if every poor person who was depressed ceased to be depressed immediately, the same number of poor people would exist in America.

It is is structural. It is not personal. There is nothing a social worker can do in a monthly meeting other than to rearrange deck chairs on the Titanic and get sadistic with their clients, which is exactly what I've seen happen time and time again with "helping professionals" in a hopeless setting. The sadism is no doubt a coping mechanism -- they quickly see they don't really help anyone, and rather than admit there's nothing they possibly can do and that their salary could have been better used in direct assistance to their clients, they blame the people they work with. But if you don't know that's what happens in exactly that kind of setting, you have either been lucky or you were not poor long enough.

Programs that impose those sorts of requirements on poor people are based on the assumption that poor people are poor because they have moral failings. For example, twice a year I have a housekeeping inspection. Why? I live in a public housing project, and the people who wrote the law assumed that all poor people are voluntarily dirty. As it is, there are people in this building who can't keep up with their homes, because they have inadequate supports (this is a project for seniors and the disabled). Throwing them out on the streets because they can't pass inspection will not improve their presumed bad character. More funding for home care will.

It makes plenty of sense to provide a social worker for those who need and want one, for the duration they need one. It makes no sense, unless of course one is assuming poverty is a personal moral failing that needs repair, to mandate regular meetings with a social worker for everyone.

My guess is that if we eliminated all the presumed moral failings requirements and spent the money saved in direct assistance, there would be a good few people sitting at home rather than sleeping under a bush today,

[Whisp]

63. sometimes just breathing and existing is 'work'

but of course 'work' is tied into being some cog in a corporate machine to make them profits. Taking care of a home and kids and elderly isn't real work, because some fat bastard isn't benefiting from it. Looking after your sick neighbour or taking time to volunteer isn't looked on as real work either, because some sloven fat shitbag isn't getting his cut.

I don't give two shits about 'lazy' people, or how they decide to spend their 'welfare'. This kind of 'abuse' is not sinking the country.

It's the fucking abusers at the top of the food chain that are sucking us all dry.

In a time where CEOs are getting blahblahblah XXXX salaries and buy outs, in numbers so repugnant it makes your stomach heave, I wouldn't go talking about the poor this way.

[G_j]

69. thanks

that needed to be said

[Confusious]

94. the fucking abusers at the top of the food chain

Also driving the country into the gutter.

[itsnotaboutu]

125. Bravo!

That totally needed to be said, the real abusers are at the top of the food chain, and they are proud of gaming the system, to the detriment of everyone else.

[Lost-in-FL]

120. and then there are others I'll rather pay taxes so they can stay home...

because some people do not belong in the workforce. There are people too sick, too old or mentally unstable to do any work. I would not mind that at all.

[PatSeg]

123. There have always been the users and takers,

whether they are rich CEOs or poor people on food stamps, but the welfare "users" are such an incredibly small percentage, they hardly make a dent in the system. The rich CEOs on the other hand can and do make a huge difference. I've been on food stamps and knew a lot of people who were on welfare, some of whom were definitely "users", but they lived in real poverty. Their idea of a scam was to get an extra brick of cheese or bag of flour from the food pantry. They had close to nothing and no anticipation of things getting better, so they bent the rules when they could to get a little bit more of close to nothing.

For a lot of these people, it is all they've ever known. They know the system and how to use it, but their idea of scoring is to keep a very modest roof over their heads and food on the table. Some escaped that mindset and some didn't, but those who couldn't or wouldn't never really took anything of value from the rest of us. They were just surviving the best way they knew how, at least until someone shows them a different way.

[Dorian Gray]

178. Thank you

I was going to say the same thing.

Of course there are abusers of the system on the lower end of the spectrum. To deny that is to deny that the sky is blue. BUT.... they are a small percentage, and the benefits of these programs to help people and families in need is important.

It is the abusers of the system on the other end of the spectrum who truly make life difficult for the rest of us. They are the ones propagating high prices and low wages and unemployment rates. They are the ones who should be scrutinized and criticized.

There are many a tale about those who abuse their food stamps. Hell, I have a sister in law who is on them, is a drug and booze addict, and has no intention of finding work because it would conflict with her lay-about lifestyle. Big whoop. I also see families shopping in our local supermarket in Brooklyn for food that they would have difficulty affording without assistance.

And the drain that my SIL puts on the system is NOTHING in comparison with what companies like Exxon put on the system. Raising Oil prices = higher transportation costs = higher prices for most food = fewer people able to afford the basics, yet they keep reporting record profits? And nobody puts a stop to that? What the hell?

[PatSeg]

250. I don't think people who are critical of those

on public assistance, realize how little help is given. As for those who are alcoholics or drug addicts, they have always been with us whether there was government help or not. Without welfare, they would find another scam to survive. It is probably better to focus on how many people are really helped by these programs instead of the small handful who abuse them.

For me, the help I received years ago probably saved my life and gave my children stability and a roof over their heads.

[Dorian Gray]

269. You are right

I am happy that you had the help that you needed when you needed it. Stability for families is truly why these programs are necessary in our world.

[PatSeg]

272. Thank you

Looking back, most of the people I knew who turned to public assistance during the eighties ended up moving into the middle class in the nineties. Sometimes life requires a helping hand, as we are all vulnerable to hardship and/or illness.

[hfojvt]

57. not really

It just so happened that I cleaned toilets (and deepfat fryers) for over a year for $5.50 an hour and no benefits, so I don't have a lot of respect for somebody who thinks they are too good to clean toilets.

[AlbertCat]

88. Do you really think that any living soul would rather live in poverty than get paid a living wage to

Do you really think that any living soul would rather live in poverty than get paid a living wage to work?


****
Do you mean to tell me you don't think these kind of people exist??? They may not be a majority, but thinking they are nonexistent ... talk about naive.

[dotymed]

171. I am one of those people.

I live in poverty. Previously I was paid a living wage as a Union carpenter. I have heart failure among other ailments,no more strenuous jobs... SS has denied my "entitlements" for 5 years. I have exhausted my "retirement" by maintaining life prolonging medical insurance. I have lived in poverty for the last 5 years.
If offered to gut chickens,break rocks, etc.. even if I could, I would not. I have a Bachelors in English (from the '80's). however I am "tainted" by many years of UNION membership. If someone were to decide that they would hire me (for a living wage, which has become much more negotiable) they would fear my Union knowledge and fear that I might encourage THEIR workers to demand more from them.......

[Raster]

20. "...but there are also poor people who really dont mind living on welfare..."

A broad brush really does paint both ways.

[grasswire]

37. just wondering if you are going to tell us about "welfare queens" next.

?

[itsnotaboutu]

126. LOL

[Maraya1969]

38. They don't MIND LIVING ON WELFARE! How do you know that? Seriously how?

Have you worked with people on welfare? Are any of your friends on welfare? Have you read any studies, books or watch TV specials of people on welfare?

I think this is something you wish to be true in order to justify the greed in you.

[hobbit709]

192. I've known many people on some kind of public assistance.

NONE of them were happy about being on it, it was a matter of last resort. Worse yet, the way it's set up, you almost have to cheat to get ahead of your circumstances. You try to earn a little money and your benefits get cut by more than what you earn. One couple I know had their food stamps cut from a whopping $86/mo to $10/mo because they earned $200 too much that YEAR. That $16+ a month caused them to lose $76/mo in food stamps-what is wrong with that picture?

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

70. Let's look at that brush.

"..yes there are a lot of self absorbed rich people but there are also poor people who really dont mind living on welfare. who have no intention of ever getting a job."

[tavalon]

83. If I'm ever forced that far down,

please God, let me not get any of your tainted water.

[SammyWinstonJack]

111. Holy crap!....'but there are also poor people who really don't mind living on welfare, who have no

intention of ever getting a job.' Well if that makes it easier for you to sleep at night... :wtf:

[cali]

2. rich people are not all the same

your mother sounds awful. And I can relate to that. Did you grow up with money? Just curious.

[Chris_Texas]

14. Answers

NUTSHELL: My dad was wealthy. He was a chief executive at a major bank and a lobbyest for the banking industry. He was also a self-made man, one of those guys who went to work at age 3 in the toxic waste factory before woking his way through college, so he was a firm believer in making things as tough as possible and giving your kids nothing. Bootstraps dammit! My parents were divorced when I was a teen. He married his former secretary (a nice lady by the way), and eventually killed himself, leaving all of his money to his new wife. My mom, who did quite well out of divorcing him, went on to marry a doctor who was also very rich.

The purpose behind my post was not so much to complain about what a terrible person my mom is. Or not exactly. She is, by my ethical standards, are horrid human being, but the point I apparently did not really get across well is that she is, in virtually every way, little different than her peers. At the core they are ALL that way.

The noticable difference is that some of them use their kids as a conversation piece for how great they are doing, they send them to elite schools and finance their kid's businesses and investments, introduce them to the right people, get them into the club. My mom uses us in the same way with her friends, only the opposite. And she just LOVES telling us how marvelously successful the kids and grandkids of her friends are. "Chris, do you remember little Johnny Johnson? He just opened his first restraurant in Moscow, my friends and I are all flying out there for Thad Braxton's wedding reception! Isn't that great!" Sure mom, sounds great. Good on him. (True story by the way.)

Anyway, hope that answers your questions.

[jhrobbins]

89. Chris - your story could be my story....

with one glaring exception.
I too was raised with a great deal - I drove my family's Rolls Royce my junior year at college. Houses, cars, a plane, etc, etc. Now, I live on disability and it is a struggle. I still have very rich relatives. My cousin is engaged to a woman considered to be the most powerful woman in fashion. Other cousins, aunts, uncles are very rich as well (my nuclear family have all passed away). The difference is that many (not all ) of my relatives and friends from that era are not evil - in fact, many of them do a great deal to help others. I think it unfair to paint wealthy people with such a broad brush - they are all people that have come from very different backgrounds that color the way they look at the world. SOme see it as their playground and others see it as their challenge. I'm sorry your mother seems so evil to you - it must be hard to live like that and shame on her for her myopic existence. (I see you are from Texas and I have a strange feeling that she probably knows people from my family)

[Rockholm]

189. Your thread has been picked up by some stoopid conservative website.

Was this the purpose of your post in the first place? Unseemly. How brietbart of you.

http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php?topic=56356.0

[grasswire]

3. yes, evil does exist and is expressed through greed

I know a man who has a 40-year-old mentally handicapped daughter that he has refused to help support since she turned eighteen. She lives at the poverty level; he is on his third family and putting the third wife's sons through college while his own grandson (who just made the dean's list at the state university) goes dumpster diving for food between classes. This man squandered the significant estate that had been left to him by his hard-working parents -- people who thought the money would be available to educate their grandchildren and keep them from poverty. They should have kept the bulk of the estate out of his hands. It's gone.

[marions ghost]

46. and yours is not

an unusual story...:thumbsdown:

[Warpy]

5. I gained minor entry into that world when I was young, cute, and

had developed a rep as a wit, not easy to do in Boston.

I found them affable, generous, and clueless.

They were pleasant on their own terms. They delighted in bestowing gifts and taking amusing people along on junkets, although anyone who tried to tell them what they really needed was quickly shown the door, buh bye. They were concerned with the continued comfort of their own environments and appallingly incurious about what might lie beyond them and they really didn't want to know, anyone injecting reality into a conversation also got the boot. They didn't know how the money kept rolling in, they hired people to take care of the dirty business of making it, and they didn't want to know any of the details.

They'd also be appalled to know what that wisecracking little girl was doing, picking their brains, before she left their company out of sheer boredom. It really was the world of the "gentleman's C," where even paying attention in an Ivy League classroom was best left to those who needed to.

I don't hate them. I mostly feel sorry for people whose lives are that limited, ignorant and pointless. Now they're frightened because the near collapse of 2008 has shown them that they can be hurt, too, at least numerically. I imagine they're far less affable and generous, but just as clueless today.

IMO, the greatest argument against being able to inherit obscene wealth is the people who have done so, themselves, even absent the harm that great wealth has done to this country and its people because the heirs just don't care what the hired help does as long as the numbers are good.

My mother came from money. Although she harbored a life long resentment about it, I think the greatest favor done to her and then to me was that most of it was wiped out in the Depression and never really recovered.

[Chris_Texas]

21. Very accurate, but I think there is a darker underbelly

[callous taoboy]

30. My brother flies the super-rich around in small jets:

He hates his job. The company over-works him, and they often violate FAA rules regarding hours in the cockpit vs. downtime. The worst part is the clients. 99% of them are assholes. The worst are the young ones who have fallen into money.

[abelenkpe]

6. Never could understand

how the wealthy could be so unmoved by all the poverty that surrounds them. I grew up surrounded by the very wealthy as my parents made sure to send me to good schools where they thought I'd gain an advantage they didn't have growing up. While I do commend them for their efforts, I had friends who got blank checks for their birthday, new cars, who teased me for wearing the same jacket twice. One thing that always got me was when my wealthy friends would rant about the poor as a bunch of pathetic entitled brats always wanting and expecting more....O the irony.

I know how difficult it is, but try not to let your mother get you down. Hope your business picks up! :)

[leftynyc]

7. Sorry your mom is a self absorbed bitch

but not all the wealthy are like that. Bill Gates is trying to stamp out polio for starters. Just like you can't say the poor are lazy, you can't call all the rich selfish.

[dotymed]

179. I wonder,

since Gates, IMO, is destroying public education, is his company's next venture for-profit education?

[leftynyc]

221. He's destryoying public education?

All by himself?

[Blecht]

9. I like the story

Thanks for sharing.

[handmade34]

10. another reality...

posted this days ago...

"One mega-millionaire sent me an email after reading my Jan. 4 column, “America’s worst 10 years start now.”

“Paul, you may well be right about the coming decade, but the rich exist in a different world from the one you write about. They live privileged lives in gated communities. Meet for holidays at the world’s elite resorts. The richest just aren’t worried about today’s economy like your readers. Their issues revolve around who’s the best masseuse, best Pilates teacher, best concierge medical doctor, which private school to choose, what investments they are making at this time, etc. Folks at the top are not concerned with the underlying deterioration of America, except in the abstract, because they aren’t directly affected. That’s why no amount of information from you will ever change things. To them, it’s irrelevant. Best wishes, always enjoy your stuff.”


http://www.marketwatch.com/story/four-time-bombs-that-will-blow-up-wall-street-2011-03-01

[brooklynite]

11. Unrec'd

I don't begrudge your opinions about the wealthy people you see around you, but I don't accept the extension that therefore all rich people are the same.

Because my wife and I are also rich (7 figure household income). We drive a 7-year old hatchback. We give to charity. We work with community organizations. And we support Democratic candidates who ideally will be raising our taxes.

Having money doesn't always make you bad. And not having money doesn't always make you virtuous.

[Chris_Texas]

17. Sorry. You are correct.

[Joe Fields]

76. Of course there are no absolutes in this world, except that we are

all going to die. A more accurate statement, I believe, would be to say that there is such a large percentage of rich people who behave like the anecdotal evidence suggests, that it is quite easy to say "all" rich people act that way. I think every one of us here realize that not every single rich person behaves this way. You must understand that, and you just have to live with that stigma.

[Zanzoobar]

80. As do the poor live with their stigma

So, Oh well. It is what it is.

[Joe Fields]

104. and what stigma is that?

the stigma of caring for their fellow man and being more charitable?

I'll live with that.

[Zanzoobar]

109. Live by the stigma

Die by the stigma.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

183. Just had a college flashback when you said "We are all going to die"

According to my professor..the only truth is Change. Death is not a given because you don't know - you could
be the first person to live forever.

I know, not your point - just always remember what he taught

[Statistical]

93. +1. Although some people just can't help but to paint with the broadest brush the can find. n/t

[Akoto]

156. I have to admit, my first reaction to your post ...

... was to think, 'I envy him.'

Not to imply that you haven't earned that seven figure income. I just wish I'd had the same chance. At age 26, I'm disabled with an incurable condition, and what I get from disability is a fraction of the average person's monthly's paycheck. That's it for the rest of my life, and its use is heavily restricted. Honestly not sure what will become of me when my folks pass and are no longer around to live with.

Having a lot of money probably isn't bliss in many ways, but man, the things I could do with just one year's worth of your income. :)

[CanonRay]

176. I salute you

but I believe you are very unusual. Unique, almost among rich people.

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

12. Hi Chris, You know, not all rich people are shallow and self absorbed...

One of my (many)jobs is helping a friend of mine publish a web site and weekly newsletter that often tell inspiring stories of people who used the wealth they accuired to help others. And often, the wealthy people whose stories are told, do not achieve satisfaction in their lives, until they help others. Here are links to some of the stories, from http://kazantoday.com/kazantoday_archives.html

2011-08-03 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/joe-lumer.html">Joe Lumer, who made a fortune with parking lots and donated much of it to help others.</a>
2011-01-03 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/fred-hargesheimer.html">Fred Hargesheimer, a World War ll pilot whose life was saved by Pacific Islanders who he later repaid many times over for their profound kindness.</a>
2011-22-02 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/sally-goodrich.html">Sally Goodrich, who from the tragic loss of her son, uplifted the lives of thousands of people.</a>
2011-15-02 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/oscar-micheaux.html">Oscar Micheaux, the father of African-American film making.</a>
2011-08-02 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/william-hohri.html">Bill Hohri, thrown in jail for a crime he didn’t commit, he later fought for justice and against long odds, got it for himself and for others.</a>
2011-01-02 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/marie-osborne-yeats.html">Baby Marie Osborne, a silent film child star whose real life was far more dramatic than her movie roles.</a>
2011-25-01 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/paul-miller.html">Paul Miller, who suffered from what others thought of as a disability and used it to become a leading disability rights activist, attorney and professor.</a>
2011-18-01 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/vera-brown.html">Vera Brown, who built a successful business in her 60’s and then did something even more remarkable.</a>
2011-11-01 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/irving-berlin.html">Irving Berlin, a self-trained songwriter with a 2nd grade education who became the biggest selling songwriter in history.</a>
2011-04-01 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/george-nissen.html">George Nissen, trampoline creator who despite the skepticism it would never amount to anything, made it a global sport and an Olympic event. </a>
2010-28-12 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/ernst-leitz.html">Ernst Leitz, a German industrialist who risked his life and the lives of his family to secretly save hundreds of Jewish people from the Nazis.</a>
2010-21-12 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/afonso-hernandez.html">A life changing rescue by an Angel of Mercy.</a>
2010-14-12 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/nicolas-hayek.html">How Nicolas Hayek became a billionaire using simple business ideas overlooked by others.</a>
2010-07-12 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/frank-mccourt.html">Frank McCourt, a retired New York school teacher who at age 66 launched a remarkable writing career. </a>
2010-30-11 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/helens-story.html">In her last stage of life, a woman learned an invaluable lesson that could benefit us all.</a>
2010-23-11 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/peter-cooper.html">How Peter Cooper built one of America’s great fortunes despite attending only one year of grade school.</a>
2010-16-11 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/stephen-j-cannell.html">Stephen J. Cannell, who overcame an almost impossible limitation to become a top Hollywood writer.</a>
2010-09-11 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/dick-kazan-happier-life.html">How an embarrassing childhood incident helped to create a successful husband, father and businessman.</a>
2010-02-11 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/daniel-ludwig.html">How Daniel Ludwig, an 8th grade dropout became one of the world’s wealthiest men.</a>
2010-26-10 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/michael-jordan.html">Basketball superstar Michael Jordan: His greatest career failure and the blessing it became.</a>
2010-19-10 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/agatha-christie.html">An 84-year-old unsolved mystery about the great mystery writer Agatha Christie.</a>
2010-12-10 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/ascension-franco-gonzales.html">A remarkable act of honesty by a poor dishwasher.</a>
2010-05-10 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/paul-longmore.html">Paul Longmore, a scholar and disabled rights leader who made the world a better place.</a>
2010-28-09 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/donald-shiley.html">Donald Shiley, a tinkerer who revolutionized heart valves and made a fortune.</a>
2010-21-09 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/jack-douglas.html">How Jon "Jack" Douglas through hard work and a positive attitude willed himself to sports and business stardom.</a>
2010-14-09 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/albrecht-brothers.html">How two of the world’s richest men began with no money and built a global retail empire. </a>
2010-07-09 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/meyer-friedman.html">Advice that could bring you a greater, happier and longer life. </a>
2010-31-08 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/bert-shepard.html">The extraordinary story of Bert Shepard, a one-legged Major League Baseball player.</a>
2010-24-08 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/harriet-johnson.html">Harriet Johnson: severely disabled, she refused to accept society’s limitations on her and uplifted herself and many other disabled people.</a>
2010-17-08 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/harvey-korman.html">Harvey Korman: After 20-years, an overnight success.</a>
2010-10-08 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/william-kamkwamba.html">Do you have an “impossible” dream you hope to achieve?</a>
2010-03-08 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/remote-area-medical.html">Remote Area Medical: A medical lifeline for thousands of people.</a>
2010-27-07 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/eddie-murphy.html">How comedian Eddie Murphy overcame incredible odds to succeed. </a>
2010-20-07 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/simple-lesson-that-could-uplift-your-life.html">A powerful but simple lesson that could uplift your life.</a>
2010-13-07 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/guy-laliberte.html">How street performer Guy Laliberte became a billionaire.</a>
2010-06-07 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/ezra-nawi.html">Ezra Nawi, a Jewish man who confronts the Israeli government on behalf of voiceless Palestinians.</a>
2010-29-06 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/chris-haney.html">How high school dropout Chris Haney co-created one of the most popular games of all-time.</a>
2010-22-06 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/john-wooden.html">A personal memory of Coach John Wooden.</a>
2010-15-06 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/richard-lamotta.html">How Richard LaMotta made a fortune with ice cream, cookies and chocolate chips.</a>
2010-08-06 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/doris-eaton-travis.html">Doris Eaton Travis, who succeeded repeatedly by reinventing herself several times over her 106 year life.</a>
2010-01-06 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/dugout-dick.html">A mysterious mountain man with an unusual business.</a>
2010-25-05 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/wilma-mankiller.html">Wilma Mankiller, who rose from the San Francisco government housing projects to lead the Cherokee Nation.</a>
2010-18-05 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/birth-of-a-successful-entrepreneur.html">The death of a business, the birth of a successful entrepreneur.</a>
2010-11-05 <a href="http://www.kazantoday.com/WeeklyArticles/bruce-llewellyn.html">How Bruce Llewellyn overcame racial segregation and limited financial resources to become one of America's wealthiest black men.</a>

[bluestate10]

103. Gee. Why break the raging narrative that all rich people are heartless assholes. nt.

[jtrockville]

13. It's doesn't really break down into "rich vs poor".

Was it Thomas Aquinas that said we should love people and use things, not use people and love things? I think Chris_Texas's mom uses people and loves things, whereas Chris_Texas uses things and loves people.

Doesn't matter how much $$$$$$$ you have. There are those with little who are willing to share something of what they have with others, and those with lots who aren't. It's just that those with lots appear to be more cold-hearted, simply due to the magnitude of what passes as "pocket change" to them.

[reformist2]

16. Of course there are exceptions, but what OP wrote is generally true.

Jesus didn't say that it was harder for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven for nothing.

[grasswire]

22. yes, and studies by professional organizations on charitable giving...

...show that those with less give proportionally more of what they have than those who have much.

[callous taoboy]

31. That is absolutely accurate.

[walldude]

36. Oh and when they "give" what they do is spend

a couple million on a lavish "high society" party so they can raise 25 or 30 grand for charity by having an auction at the end of the night...

[ldf]

85. and it is ALL tax deductable....

in MOST cases, all that "generosity" is carefully planned for maximum benefit.

i'll bet even bill gates and warren buffet make sure everything that can be deducted, is.

hopefully the tax breaks allow them to give even more. but most monied people don't act like bill and melinda.

[gateley]

122. I went on a cruise in the Caribbean. I bought a piece of jewelry that was signed

and was told it was considered "art" so I wouldn't have to pay duty. I bought an old Roman coin and was told it was an "antique" and wouldn't have to pay duty.

Neither of these was an expensive item -- maybe $100 total, but it got me thinking: Hmmm. Who can usually buy REAL art and REAL antiques while traveling? The wealthy. Meanwhile I didn't have to declare them (I asked the customs agent when we were coming back) but my shipmates who were bring back tee shirts, rum cake and coffee had a very specific dollar amount which would be duty free, anything higher, they had to pay duty. So again, the little guy pays, the big guys skate. :shrug: And I bet some of these wealthy folks who ARE good people would know where to buy their art and antiques so they wouldn't have to pay tax or duty.

[Jackpine Radical]

220. Or indulge in other forms of what I term Conspicuous Philanthropy.

Get a cancer research building or university hall named after you as a personal monument; create a foundation that bears your name and use it to advance your corporate interests, etc.

And I don't think all rich people are greedy assholes, but I do think that the two conditions are correlated.

[fascisthunter]

79. This is true

[DirkGently]

234. Exactly. I read as talking about a distorted worldview, rather than positing an absolute rule.

It is difficult both to amass the kind of wealth the OP is talking about, and to live blissfully in that culture, without adopting a twisted view of the world. It's a view that's become the new religion in America in particular. Something along the lines of the Divine Right of Kings.

This is what both Randian "Objectivism" and "The Family" in D.C. are about -- rationalizing a level of wealth and privilege that, by definition, exploits and harms others.

[Boxerfan]

18. My story is similar....Evil Stepmom had my Dad's will re-written-Then he dies in a fox hunting "acci

I was too young to know how badly we were being screwed-but the more I know the more I'm convinced it was no accident.

But to the gist of the story.... My stepmom lives very comfortably off my fathers estate.I have never till recently asked her for help. I recently became partially disabled & was close to loosing my family's home. She refused any help & acted like it was somehow my fault.

They do live in another world & some are just plain evil...

[The Doctor.]

19. I know this is probably of no help;

But is there something preventing her from helping you out, or you for asking for help?

I mean, if you run a business, is it a business that can be grown with investment? Does she ever visit?


There seems to be something 'off' about this relationship.

[Chris_Texas]

32. Okay...

Yes, my business would flourish with even a tiny investment. Nor is this some hope or gamble, but simply fact. I have been doing this long enough to know what I make and where I make it.

The thing that's "off" is this:

That's all REAL world stuff. She doesn't want to think about how money is earned or how poor people live. She cannot even comprehend it. To her it's make believe. It's as if she actually believes (or likes to pretend more likely) that poor people are the way that they are by choice, and they could just change it if they wanted to. No struggle, no really really wanting it, but just by making some minor choice, the way she might decide to spend a few months in France instead of Switzerland. I know it's hard to understand, it's hard for me to understand and I know these people, I've spent years trying to figure them out. But maybe it would help if I relayed (paraphrasing obviously, but damn close) a conversation we had before christmas:

Her: "So we will be having christmas with the Snobersons in Maui. Hopefully the new addition to the house will be done by the time we get back! What about you, where are you going for the holidays?"

Me: "I am not going anywhere Mom, I am poor, remember? We will be lucky to eat."

Her: "So you are staying home? Got any big plans?"

Me: "Mom...we have no money for food. I'm not kidding."

Her: "You getting anything special for your daughter?"

Me: "We are not doing presents this year. Hopefully we will have some food for dinner." (Note: we all got a candy bar as our christmas present, and we did have food.)

Her: "Surely it's not that bad (laughing). Times are tough for everyone you know. What about your wife's family, any of them flying out to visit?"

Me: "Of course not! They are poor too. Poor people don't jet around. And if they did we couldn't feed them."

Her: "Ha-Ha! Did I tell you, our new friends that we met on the flight from Manaco, the McMillions, they are gonna stop by Muoi on their way to China and they invited us to visit them in their villa in Hong Kong, so we might need to reschedule that trip to see you we talked about..."

etc...

Pretty much every conversation goes just like that. The moment you try to talk about anything real the conversation is over. And yeah, she visited us once. Stayed in a hotel. She went out with me on a job and started crying (literally) by nine am. Spend most of the rest of the morning consoling and warming herself in a nearby coffee shop.

[marions ghost]

49. I KNOW you are not exaggerating

and it's believable also that you have not done anything wrong to be treated like this. Because her values are so messed up, she is likely ashamed of you and wants you to share her shame. Maybe she thinks that will make you work harder and you can still make her proud. But she is angry and unfulfilled, despite all her stuff--it is obvious.

NPD. Narcissism. Many rich people have this. Your mom could be literally unable to feel anything like compassion for others. Any concern for others is always turned around as concern about moi.

Miss Piggy = The classic Narcissist.

THANK YOU for telling your story. More people need to realize the reality of the rich in this country. So many of them do not have any notion of what it would be like to TRULY invest in this country.

[Phentex]

216. My sister has this and most of the family has had to...

separate ourselves from her. My mother is the only person who still has anything to do with her. It's frustrating as all get out and my sister is not like any other member of our family. I can't blame it all on money but it is a huge part of why she acts the way she does. We were very poor as kids and part of me believes her mind has grabbed onto the NPD as a way to forget her past and the pain of being poor. She's textbook.

The OP would feel a hell of a lot better if he never spoke to his mother again.

[marions ghost]

258. Totally agree

I've found out the hard way myself--you cannot expect a Narcissist to change. They never learn. It is a very serious condition that people take too lightly. A Narcissist can wreak havoc in a family. Once you see the syndrome, you can spot it a mile away. In my case it was a long term step parent but it hurt all the same.

In order to save one's own sanity at times it is necessary to turn away from people. You don't hate them for their illnesses, but still, you must turn away. You must not engage. The OP, it seems to me (by posting here) may be in the process of letting go.

I hope this evidence of understanding and support from others here will help Chris go a step in that direction. The abusive treatment will continue as long as these exchanges continue. Chris has realized the futility of the situation, but it is so hard to let go. To realize that your own mother really has no feeling for you--no wish to help you. Narcissists really feel nothing for anyone else but themselves. They tend to be the type of rich person who "never has enough" and they spend a lot of money trying to buy happiness. (Chris's Mom is likely NOT a charitable giver to anyone).

[Phentex]

261. Agree. At times my sister appears to be generous...

but people find out eventually there are strings attached. And it always turns sour.

I hope Chris takes your advice.

[The Doctor.]

64. Oh, I've seen it.

'Just take a week in St. Martin's and you'll cheer up!'

Yeah, I've heard that from clients as a solution for depression.


The disparity between her lifestyle and your reality is too great. She can't see your reality because it would rob her of the levity and 'innocence' she dearly clings to. If there is something 'wrong' with someone in her life, then there is something 'wrong' with her life. She simply can't have that.

However, and again I don't know if this will help at all, there is a way to get through to her without bursting her bubble. Perhaps making a game of it would engage her.

I can think of ways, but I don't know her at all.

I really hope you can get things up and running one way or another. I'm actually there now myself after some devastating blows.

Good Luck.

[Jokinomx]

23. wow.....

I can relate a bit. My Father in Law isn't fithly rich...but very ..very well off. He doesn't do the outlandish things that your Mother is doing ..however, he certainly can't see the struggles of a class of people that can't seem to pull themselves out of the rut they are in. You see, he is a retired teacher. His union negotiated package of benefits has given him a very comfortable retirement. His investing has given him the frosting on the cake.

He doesn't understand how you can't just go find a good paying job. He doesn't see that in 30 years the average wage for most Americans has gone down not up. For example...

In 1975 I graduated from H.S. and got a job for $7.50 an hour.... by 1982 I was making $15.00 an hour. My new wife and I decided quit our jobs and move back to our home state of Michigan to be near Family and to put a tragic event of losing a baby behind us.

It was not until 2007 that I worked my way back to another $15.00 an hour job just to be laid off and now I must take a job for $10.00 to get started in the workforce again.

My Father in Law ... never once lost a job because the company closed and left the country (for me, 4 companies in 10 years)... he never once wondered how he was going to continue paying for his house payment and taxes.. he never once was fired because he had pneumonia and couldn't work(this was 2 weeks from the company closing, that way they didn't have to pay me the severance I was owed)..

Yet he will say... that if politicians had done this 30 years ago ...we wouldn't be in the mess we are now. He was referring to our current Governor Snyder and Fuhrer Walker.

I tried to explain that Gov. Granholm and cut the state budget for 8 years straight... and that if we had only put a 3% tax on the super rich, none of this would be happening. He cut me off and said... "I won't change your mind and you can't change mine." I sat in silence for the remainder of the visit and I haven't had the desire to return.

He was a great husband and a wonderful father. He taught math for over 30 years and the school honored him by naming the yearly H.S. award for math after him. I love him dearly..but he can't see the reality of our world anymore and it really bothers me.

I wish you well... I hope that someday your Mother sees the light b4 she passes. That is my hope with my FIL... although I am not holding my breath.

Peace

[wickerwoman]

154. Sounds like my parents.

It's incomprehensible to them that having a Masters degree could actually work against you when you go for minimum wage jobs. They think companies hire the most qualified people they can find, not the cheapest with the minimum qualifications to get the job done, preferably people who are obviously desperate and have few other options. And I can't just leave my education and good jobs off my CV because then what am I supposed to tell them in the interview that I was doing for those nine years between crappy service jobs in college and today?

I've actually had people tell me they won't consider me for interviews because I'm obviously overqualified and would get "bored". I showed one of these e-mails to my parents and they still won't believe that this happens.

They both did 25 years with the same place and took early retirement packages in their early 50s. Neither of them ever spent seventeen months sending out 500+ CVs and not getting a single interview offer. But if I "really tried" I could get a job. :eyes:

So frustrating dealing with retired family who haven't been on the job market for the past twenty years.

[Jokinomx]

175. I know your frustrations...

I don't have degrees however, I do have extensive experience in manufacturing. Mostly the woodworking field but others as well.

I have started over so many times that I am just getting tired of it all.

I was ecstatic that by using a staffing service, I was placed immediately with what looked like a great company that would eventually hire me in permanent. My 2nd day the plant manager came up to me and apologized that the contract that I was hired for was canceled that day. He allowed me to finish out the week with the promise that I would be on the top of their list when they do call the staffing company again.

So here I am again... waiting as are our bill collectors. We are now entering a desperate time in our lives and believe me, my wife and I have had some pretty low times in our 28 years. This is becoming the most difficult.

I wish you well... and try to stay positive...

:hug:

Peace

[Fuzz]

24. I've seen both sides. My sister's mother in law said once "I won't give to any charity

that misspells our name." They have a hard to spell last name actually. Her father in law, in the first 5 minutes we met found out I was working at a bank *cough (no more) and brought up a bank story centering around a '7 figure check'. I think I rolled my eyes.

They start so many sentences with 'you know what's wrong with' could be this country, this town, this restaurant, etc, thinking they have all the answers. And all the conversations HAVE to revolve around them, anything else their eyes and heads begin to turn and look away. Oh, and I've never seen them pick up a check, but then again I haven't seen them in YEARS, and that's on purpose.

Oh yeah, almost forgot about the mansion they bought and the lawsuit the neighbors filed when they proceeded to cut down all the trees on the property, or something like that. He was quoted in the local paper saying something like screw them, my property, I can do what I want. They all have nicknames like Buffy, Skippy, etc (not the real ones, but you get the idea) and wear belts with boats on them.

On the other hand, my in laws, (ok my sister and I married well) are not like that at all. They give away cars to family members in need, house family members and help get them jobs, and pay for schooling. They built a multi family house for people in the country where they are from and house friends and family there. And this is a very large family with people on two continents. My 2 kids already have college paid for. They don't drive expensive cars and you wouldn't know they had money if you looked at them.

So I've seen both sides. It was funny when these two sides got together years ago. They did not get along at all.

[AngryAmish]

25. "rich people are entirely self absorbed"...just like Al Gore

[LanternWaste]

26. I imagine a subsistence farmer...

"But then, I am not rich..."

I imagine a subsistence farmer in Rwanda who's children were abducted by the military believes the same thing. I would further imagine he believes anyone with internet access, clean water and electric lighting are "living in a different world", and may have a difficult time understanding a lack of compassion and assistance as we relish a cold Coke on a hot day.

That's probably twisted too... but as we more often than not look through windows rather than into mirrors, it may suggest some solutions.

[Chris_Texas]

33. True. However...

There is a difference between being ignorant or uncaring about the plight of people on the other side of the world, and being ignorant and uncaring over the homeless man you walked around on your way to an early supper at Chez Maison. Particularly when you consider that all too often you hear compassion for the poor in some third world hellhole and condemnation for the poor here at home.

[renate]

131. I think you're right

I just got back from a couple of weeks in a less developed country, where the vast majority of families live in houses (rural) or apartments (urban) less than size of our small garage, pinch pennies to afford the school uniforms their kids need to get an education, and have absolutely no superfluous material goods. They would think that anybody like me, sitting at a computer in a house with access to the Internet and 100 TV channels, driving a (12-year-old) car (but it runs!), owning material objects and clothes and books that I haven't used in months or years, and able to buy food for my family without worry, is unimaginably rich.

And compared with them, of course, I totally am. Whereas compared with the OP's mother and with a lot of people in this country, I am the unwashed proletariat. For most humans, as social creatures, the knee-jerk choice for a standard of comparison is what we see around us, which I think probably accounts for the OP's mother's attitude. Not to excuse it: it's pretty gross. But--because of the circles she moves in and because she sounds pathologically self-absorbed--even if she's ever made the decision to go without yet one more Hermes scarf to save some money, she probably literally can't imagine what it'd be like to have a survival-type need that can't be met.

[alc]

27. you can't generalize

I've known or worked with or worked for over a dozen millionaires (2 worth over $100 million and another around $50 million) and a billionaire. I've gone out to dinner, bars, bowling, movies, etc. with all of them on many occasions (except the billionaire). One of the $100 million+ guys was a complete dick and I'd call a couple of the millionaires self-absorbed and selfish. They all have nicer homes and cars and vacations than everyone else, but it's hard to tell otherwise. They don't dress different when we go out, or talk about their homes or cars or vacations (except when asked) or treat people different (except most tip BETTER than average), and I'd bet it's hard to tell who in our group is worth 20x everyone else together when we're out. The ones who own companies pay above average salaries with great benefits (I've worked for a couple and met others through my friends who work for them)

When I worked 60 hours/week for one of the guys worth $100 million, he was in the office as much as us and started going himself to get us dinner a couple of times a week (after we got sick of pizza and Chinese delivery every night) Sure you can say he was being selfish and just wanting us to meet the deadlines. But did I mention he also paid well and gave good benefits, and we would have gotten the work done without him there or if we ordered in pizza every night - he really did want us to be happy, and not just make him more money.

I've met a few dozen other rich people who were complete douches from their first sentence so I never got to know them (the ones I like have invited my wife and I to various charity events so I got to meet others). The others often seem to fit the OP's description but I never gave them a chance to show one way or another.

That's why I hate it when DU demonizes "the rich" and "corporations" as if they are all the same. Many people with money also dislike "the rich" and would be on your side if you let them. Even if you dislike my rich friends, you'd be better off getting them on you side than assuming that everyone with money is a selfish ass.

[MedicalAdmin]

39. That is very true.

My parents were rich (publishing) but not excessively rich and they were sweet humble and gave to charity all the time. But they were self made rich. They inherited nothing and gave back to their families as much as they could. But I also knew other rich people through them and it is the entitled children / grandchildren of the rich etc who are the problem. These little parasites have been insulated from reality all thier lives and in this class despite having met and hung with lots of them, I must say that I never met one of the scions of the wealthy that wasn't a complete dick and sociopath.

Of course this is still a generalization but I wonder if the percentages don't go up the more luck one has in acquiring their wealth. ANd of course this parasitic class gives their money to asswipes like Blankfein in order to finance his raping of the public. As long as they get what they want, when they want, they are fine. and they ignore everything else. This is just my experience.

[crim son]

228. Entirely agreed.

I have a wealthy sister. After Christmas we were discussing the question of executive bonuses. She was a recipient of a massive one and as she told me about opening the envelope containing the notice of deposit, she burst into tears. Why? Because the people who worked for her, and worked hard, didn't get bonuses. I had to hug her until she stopped sobbing.

I know rich people who are what you call self-absorbed. Usually they aren't nasty but they are ignorant & they don't understand how it is that somebody with a leaking roof might not fix it. They believe that if you have a job at Mickey D's then you probably qualify for food stamps and who knows what else & so must not be truly struggling. They have no idea what it's like to have a mysterious pain but not be able to afford to have it checked out. I don't know how to make them understand, but demonizing them en masse isn't going to work.

[jwirr]

28. The point is that the rich just don't know. They are so isolated for

the most part that they suffer from tunnel vision. I would guess that the richer you are the more isolated one becomes. However, not knowing is not limited to the rich. For years I sat in on Bible classes that were mostly middle class persons. Often the subject of poverty would come up and I could not believe what I was hearing. All too often the poor are "those people in...." some other part of the nation or world. They had no idea that at least one of the poor was setting in on the class. They did not think we had that problem in our dear little burg. I cannot help today but wonder if they have finally found out that there are poor in their own backyards?

[moondust]

29. How did she get rich?

That probably makes a difference in some cases.

JK Rowling, for example, is a billionairess and I couldn't care less how she lives. She sold a hell of a lot of books and collected royalties on movies and such. She more or less "earned" it. To my knowledge she does not use it to try to selfishly influence things in a way that may adversely affect the well-being of others.

The Koch brothers of Koch Industries, on the other hand, inherited most of their vast wealth and use large amounts of it to try to selfishly manipulate the government to their own advantage without regard for the many less fortunate people who are to some degree dependent on that government--people who actually need the help that good government can offer. The Koch brothers are POND SCUM despite being rich.

[Chris_Texas]

34. She married money

[MedicalAdmin]

41. So she got lucky ... or she had certain, um, charms...

At any rate, I don't consider that earning ones money. She sounds horrible.

I have struggled but my parents always supported my efforts and dreams. When I was poor my mom would ask what I was doing for Christmas and if I couldn't afford to drive or fly she would just send a plane ticket and money to cover my expenses (and my families). I was always embarassed and I never asked and she would always just say - hey! It's one of your gifts. It's my money and I'll spend it to have my family with me." God I miss that woman.

[Chris_Texas]

45. She sounds like a wonderful person

Reading that, I thought wow, it must be so nice to have (or have had) someone like that in your life. I am sorry for your loss.

[MedicalAdmin]

51. Thanks man - I was lucky.

My dad is still alive and cranky... But he's a great and giving guy and still spends most of his time volunteering with charities.

In my experience you make your own luck when it comes to people. Choose who you surround yourself with and you will be rich. My wife is my greatest treasure.

ANd I must tell you that your circumstances are almost exactly like mine. I own part of a struggling medical clinic that could be doing much better if we had more to put into it and if we didn't take so many low income/pay what you can clients, but that's how we have decided to proceed. THe part of the letter I most identified with is the water damaged bathroom floor and the small disablility, which is my story exactly. My big frustration with my house is that it could be so much nicer if I could physicially be up to fixing the damned thing.

Final words - my Dad now lives in Canada and has offered to sponsor us and we are SERIOUSLY looking at it. Good luck with things and thanks for a great OP..

[renate]

127. if she did, it wasn't till after she made it on her own

The first Harry Potter book came out in in 1997 and she got married (to a younger man, an anesthetist--I have no idea whether he was wealthy or just doctor-level well-off) in 2001. (I'd be surprised if she got a lot of money from the husband she divorced in 1993, considering she was on welfare while she was raising their daughter.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._K._Rowling

[moondust]

133. I think he means

his mother married money.

[marions ghost]

50. what's JK Rowling's tax percentage?

compared to the US?

[moondust]

68. No idea.

But if she pays taxes in the UK no doubt she pays much more than if she were paying them in the US.

[Bluenorthwest]

110. Here is JK Rowling on money, having and not having etc

A Single Mother's Manifesto-http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article7096786.ece

[moondust]

132. Thank you!

Beautiful piece! (I seem to have stumbled onto her wave length there for a moment. :))

[Rex]

40. It is not the millionaires, it s the billionaires that are ruining the country.

It is NOT small business owners, they are the backbone of America. It is the Wells Fargos and the JPMorgan-Chase assholes we need to focus on. Not the local shop.

[MedicalAdmin]

42. +1

That's true. It's not anyone who made or makes their money on main street. They are still human.

It's the Blankfeins and the people he works for that are the problem. And they need to go. Permanently.

[Rex]

43. Bring back oversight and regulations out the wazoo imo!

I want oversight of the oversight! What happen to us is a national disgrace and every billionaire that made money on the rigged stock market in 2008 should be hauled into court for a long jail sentence.

[MedicalAdmin]

44. What a shitty idea.

Bwahahahahahaha.

[Rex]

145. I looked all day for just the right emoticon, but failed.

I crapped out. :rofl:

[Fire1]

47. Thank you. Reading this is confirmation that I am blessed. n/t

[pacalo]

84. You're thinking is similar to mine.

Whether he believes it or not, Chris has been given a spiritual gift that has strengthened his character. Reading his OP, Chris is oozing with substance that makes a great man. I applaud him for the patience & self-restraint he's shown his mother, but she really could use a heart-to-heart talk about the grossly disparity between the two lifestyles & her lack of perception in general.

[Fire1]

184. While building character it can also build a great deal of

resentment. I just thank God for the parents I had.

[Hannah Bell]

48. I think this op, heartfelt though it may be, perpetuates the idea that it's about

personalities & the personal "goodness" or "badness" of the rich a/o poor.

It's not about personalities. Someone who's rich can have a heart of gold; I know a "millionaire" who does. However, in the economic downturn, he laid off 1/3 of his workers.

The reality is that capitalism *forces* certain behaviors on people, good heart or no.

Number one is the mandate to grow one's capital or be drowned.

And that has systemic effects.

[marions ghost]

52. ''capitalism made me do it"

OK, but they all want to hang onto it and pay as little as poss in taxes.

It is about personalities to a certain extent. This society rewards aggressive & exploitative business practices. People who have no problem with that get to be rich. People who want "to help people"--those jobs will pay as little as possible and you will be poor.

It is about personalities--very definitely.

[Hannah Bell]

58. "this society" = capitalism. capitalism rewards aggression; indeed, it forces aggression.

[Boojatta]

73. Would you say that doctors don't help people or that doctors are poor?

People who want "to help people"--those jobs will pay as little as possible and you will be poor.

[marions ghost]

97. I think too many people become doctors in order to

make a lot of money, not necessarily to help people. Medicine is big business. You'd have to sort out those who are truly in it to help others.

If you do want to help people--statistically speaking--it's likely you will be poor. I don't think you can refute that general statement and I stand by it.

Name any OTHER profession, other than MD's--where people who are really in it to help others, are making a ton of money. I can't really think of any.

[gateley]

137. My dad was in it to help people -- if he knew somebody

had a lot of kids or something and was struggling, he'd charge them practically nothing. A friend of mine's uncle went to see him and he was really sick. my dad gave him some shot and arms full of sample medications and charged him $5 for the office call. He went by his house after work for a week to check on how he was doing. I didn't even know about it until my friend told me - and I heard other stories like that from strangers who I'd meet and when they heard my last name would say "are you Dr. Gateley's daughter?" He saved my sister's life when she was born and told my parents they could pay him when they had the money." stuff like that. He was BC and Harvard Medical educated and made a lot of money, but worked hard, never gouged anybody, and was really a softy.

I have to say, though, it was different back then. I don't even think there was insurance. People could afford to pay for their medical care and if it was a surgery, he'd let them make payments for as long as they needed to.

[marions ghost]

186. Thanks for the insight

about how it was then and how it should be. Doctors could afford to be generous and medical costs didn't drive the whole profession. Important to remember it wasn't always this way.

Now it is very different. Doctors are not accepting Medicaid patients even...nice.

[gateley]

267. And I'm sure he was the norm -- it WAS different back then. I remember even

in my early 20's (I'm 58) going to doctors and them just sending a bill. I don't remember when I started getting insurance, actually. Of course that may be because most of the doctors I'd see were friends of my dad and didn't charge us anything -- "professional courtesy" -- wonder if that's even still around. :(

[bigmonkey]

71. Hear, hear! n/t

[dawg]

54. Bitterness.

I suspect you are harboring your fair share of bitterness.

Maybe not. Maybe it's just me. But that is something I grapple with, both in terms of the unfairness of our economy and in personal matters. But it does nothing but make me unhappy. I need to just let those feelings go.

Not all rich people are assholes, and not all assholes are rich. But being an asshole makes it much easier to accumulate wealth. I could list a thousand ways.

Also, not being an asshole tends to deplete your assets. You want to help. You want to make sacrifices. You don't want to take advantage of your situation at others' expense.

As for the existence of a just God, and the existence of evil ..... I believe in both.

I don't think this life is designed to be just or fair. I think it is more of a testing ground. After all, I believe the God I worship took the form of a man, lived in poverty, did nothing but work, teach, and heal people, and was beaten, tortured and executed for his reward. If this is what I really believe, how can I really expect them to treat me any better?

Also, think about this. Your day of testing may be coming. What will you do if your business does succeed? Will it change you? Will certain things start making more/less sense to you?

After working so hard, will it be easy to just let most of it go in order to pay for the socialist utopia that people like *me* want to usher in?

I often wonder how I will do in my time of testing.

[Chris_Texas]

59. Bitterness?

Perhaps you are right.

If you stipulate that I, as an adult, have no claim on anyone else, including my own family, then I have no right to feel anything but gratitude for as little or as much as anyone might choose to offer. I would love to tell you that this is the case.

Intellectually I believe this. I believe that no one, including my family, owes me anything. The hard part is with the emotions.

I believe that the difficulty comes when I try to rationalize the claimed affection with the actions. I have to deal with this woman who claims that she feels love and other parental emotions towards me and her grand daughter, yet acts with the indifference one would offer a stranger. If she were a stranger I would think nothing of it; if she came right out and said she did not care to know us and wanted nothing to do with us, I would again think nothing of it.

But she wants to play pretend.

This places the burden on me. Her contribution to the relationship is saying that she loves us while acting as though she does not. In return, she askes that we ignore the very meaning of the word, that we defile the very concept, and pretend to reciprocate feelings that she has in no way earned. She wants to lie, she wants us to lie to her.

Does this make me bitter? Damn skippy.

[grasswire]

67. you are dealing with someone who has a mental disorder

A narcissist? Probably. It might be worthwhile to read about Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

[shanti]

99. many of us

have this kind of relationship with our own parents, regular people, not wealthy. my own mother has 8 grandsons, and no relationship to speak of with any of them, which upsets a couple of them greatly (the others don't give a shit anymore).

her relationship with her own children, me, sis, and bro, is lacking in substance too. she and dad moved far enough away from their children and grandchildren (another state) so that any kind of relationship was impossible (dad is deceased, but really was a hermit and had issues too). mom is 79, and said she'll never travel again - her two new kittens are the center of her existence.she's not senile, but probably on the way.

has your mother always had this type of relationship with you?

[JI7]

55. Your mom doesn't help you with money in any way ?

there are many parents who are not anywhere near wealthy but are better off than their kids and others are are willing to help them in any way they can.

i don't even mean they have to buy a home or car, but how about just paying for a dentist/doctor visit ? or paying for car repair ?

[Chris_Texas]

60. No.

She could send every one of her 3 grandkids to college and never notice. To put their wealth into perspective, she told me this winter that she is broke too... her play-money account (as she calls it) only has a quarter million in it, so as you can imagine she is quite worried. Now note, this play-money is not for buying houses or travelling the world, it's fucking around money (say, if she jets off alone to visit one of her friends and wants some spending money).

They have millions and millions for doing important stuff like vacations and partying and buying homes.

On the plus side, she gleefully informed me that when she dies they have set up a special scolarship fund with some university, in their names, so they will be remembered. She can send strangers to university, but her own grandkids? Not so much.

[Ilsa]

105. Be sure to mention to her that her grandkids are going to have to apply for that scholarship. nt

[renate]

130. wow, she's a piece of work

Do you really think the scholarships will be named after them? Maybe it'll just be the "Grandchildren of Jane Smith Scholarship" so she can see her name in lights. Or maybe she's just out of her mind--how can she think a scholarship in their names could be better than a scholarship for them?

Could it be that she truly doesn't understand your financial situation? Could she be fooling herself into thinking "oh, Chris_Texas, you nut, you're always teasing" when you say you won't have gifts or enough food or whatever? What kind of mother would ignore statements like that? I'm beginning to agree with everyone else who's diagnosed her with narcissistic personality disorder. You have my sympathy--that must have been a rough childhood with her in it.

[Chris_Texas]

151. The scholarship fund won't be named after her grandkids, but after her and her hubby

I should have been more clear, sorry about that.

[renate]

162. OMG--it didn't even occur to me that she could be THAT rotten

As you guessed, when you said "their names" I assumed you meant the grandkids' names (which seemed pretty damned stupid but I gave her credit for doing SOMETHING nice for her grandkids).

She's a stinker. I can't even imagine the thought process. There really does seem to be something missing in her emotional makeup, that she would rather send strangers to college than her own grandchildren--something really deeply WRONG.

Well, as I tell myself when I read about or come across people like this--"Mean people are suffering." I really believe that to be true (although I have to admit that I also find that concept kind of soothing and reassuring, which is selfish and wrong of me). However materially overloaded your mother is, she can't possibly be happy on a mental or emotional or spiritual level. She is not kind. She is not loving. She is not happy. Her spirit is not at ease. I hope that somehow something changes in her and she decides to focus on the parts of life that really matter, and until that happens, I hope you and your beloved and loving family, your true family, will be okay. :hug:

[underpants]

61. They are bathed in entitlement....oh did I use THAT word?

I still believe that golf course communities were built to provide a buffer zone for the rich.

Now that we have planted the seed money in operations like Xe (nee Blackwater) they can hire their own army to protect them.

[G_j]

62. this is an awesome sentence

very true, and very sad!

"Poverty is not only a condition of the wallet, it is a hangman's noose throttling your soul and drive and hope."

[coalition_unwilling]

65. Great OP. My only question is why you still have anythng to do

with your Mother? I mean, really, what purpose is served in your life by maintaining relations with her?

Have you given thought to throwing down with her over the issue of her, for want of a better term, sociopathy? I severed many friendships when people who thought of me as their friend supported the Iraq War and refused to change their opinions even when confronted with the facts. Am I more impoverished for losing their 'friendship'? Not sure really, but I prefer to think of myself as whittling my life down to its essentials and getting rid of the driftwood (in true Thoreau-like fashion).

[lunasun]

112. I like your thinking!

I prefer to think of myself as whittling my life down to its essentials and getting rid of the driftwood (in true Thoreau-like fashion).

[proud patriot]

72. My Grandparents are millionares

My Aunt and her husband are Millionares . he was the CEO of PG and E 20 years ago. Retired in his 40s
they have one daughter who is a doctor the other 3 Daughters married Money.

My other Uncle is wealthy but not a millionare (I don't think) and his only Daughter
is a corporate Lawyer in SF settling Asbestos lawsuits (makes my skin crawl just typing it)
she's 11 years younger than me and just bought a house in the Lawyer district in SF @ 30 yrs old
and unmarried ,, just on her income alone....

My dad not rich but barely middle class (he wouldn't sell his soul) I am his only daughter
and make 12,500 dollars a year educating disabled 3-5 yr olds. together my husband and I gross
maybe 33,000 a yr. if we are lucky. We have a disabled son and are in medical debt up to our eyeballs.
we are lucky to go camping once a yr.

While my family travels and lives a life of ease, we struggle everyday. both my husband and myself
have gone w/o health care when needed because there was just no money. our Auto insurance will be
canceled on the 12th if we don't come up with $400.00. Probably a pair of shoes bought on impulse to
family members.

It's hard to enjoy being around them. I think I know how you feel.

[mimitabby]

74. you really don't have the big picture

many rich people are oblivious and so are many poor people. The rich who are feeding our politicians are NOT the ones living in their own little worlds.

[sarcasmo]

75. Greed and the whole keeping up with the Joneses mentality. A sad country we live in.

[Hutzpa]

77. One Question - Is she really your mother?

She must be heartless knowing that her son whom she carried for 9 months is going through these difficulty
without lending him a hand? find that hard to believe that.

[Chris_Texas]

92. Actually... no. I was adopted. Never considered that this might make a difference...

[grasswire]

129. It might.

Does she have any children who were not adopted?

[Chris_Texas]

152. No. My brother and I were both adopted.

[Hutzpa]

263. Maybe your mother has spent a lot of money on you and your

sister and she might be fed up with having to spend money on your every mistakes in life,
or you could be a drug addict, I can think of so many reason why she could choose to
ignore your desperate condition.

[HEyHEY]

78. A rich man leant my father the money to start his business

My Dad bought lumber off of him and then became buddies. One day during a beer, the guy convinced my Dad owning your own business was the only way to live life and pretty well force an interest free loan on him to start it up. He was a nice man, he used to come over with his wife every now and then for dinner and I my sisters and I used to look forward to their visits cause they were so much fun. I really miss them. THey've both passed on.

[tinrobot]

82. Rich is not the problem. I also know several rich people.

One of my best friends and her husband started a very successful internet company. Yes, they splurge a bit, and he's a total gadget freak. Still, they are very liberal. They also give back HUGE amounts to their employees. They have a killer health care plan and the company Christmas Party is pretty stupendous.

My other friend came into her money via rich parents. She's a bit more stereotypical in that she's rather vain, buys/sells houses and lives in 2-3 cities at any given time. But, again, she's a hardcore liberal who raises a LOT of money for Democrats.

There's also this rich guy I never met named Bill Gates who is giving his money away to help cure disease.

So, money is not particularly the problem. Rich is not a problem. Self-absorbed is not a problem, either.

The problem is people who take from others to make their fortune. These are the people who ship jobs overseas, bust unions, evade taxes, and often steal and pilfer from government coffers. That is the problem.

[TK421]

101. this post is so true, it needs to be shouted nt

[Texasgal]

86. What is your definition fo rich?

Uber rich like you descibe your Mom?

[Chris_Texas]

96. You are rich when earning wealth has ceased being a necessity for a comfortable life

Obviously this is subjective to a certain extent, but I think we can dismiss out of hand those who would argue that private jets and hundred foot yachts are a necessity for their comfort. And with that said, obviously it's ludicrously unfair on my part to criticize rich people en masse.

[AlbertCat]

87. Your mom is not "rich people". She is a single person.

Your anecdotal judgment is shallow in the extreme.

I'm rich, and nothing like that. But since you've already made up your mind about all rich people because you mother is obviously a dreadful nut, I suppose there's nothing I could do to convince you I don't run around buying multiple mansions on a whim. (Maybe if I give you all my money....)

Next you'll be telling us all black people are lazy and shiftless because you knew one once who was.

[Chris_Texas]

98. Point taken.

[gateley]

141. Your response is defensive in the extreme, and it's uncalled for to say "next

you'll be telling us..." when the OP indicated nothing to warrant such an assumption.

I think you're one of the people I wouldn't like - rich or poor. You sound bitter and nasty.

[anAustralianobserver]

95. deleted - replied wrong place

[obliviously]

100. If you say so.

?w=640&h=351

[anAustralianobserver]

106. Have you made a proposal to her, maybe itemised in writing about giving you a loan with a long time

to pay it back? or would that feel wrong to ask?

Anyway I guess she can't be all bad if she adopted you :|

[Chris_Texas]

140. No. I would not turn down an offer, but that's not what this is about

The point is not that the mean mommy hasn't offered to help. Rather, that this is how her and her friends are. And while I believe that there are likely tons of very wealthy people who are nothing like her, still I believe that there are just as many who float through life oblivious to the reality of what is going on beneath them on the socio-economic scale.

And the problem is not that there are some few (or many, who knows) like her, but rather that there is a greater social stigma attached to poverty than there is to being a heartless selfish douchebag.

[marcia_nevada]

173. you're demonizing your mother to post in a forum?

Chris, why do that? If you're as poor as you claim, you wouldn't be donating money to DU. Food would come first. You're posting this just to demonize your mother. Why would you do that? If you have problems or issues with your mother, why put it out there for the world to see here on DU? Everyone from now on will remember that Chris has a very mean mother who won't help him out when he's exchanging candy bars for Christmas. Why do it?

[Ilsa]

107. Why don't you invite her to come stay with you for a short visit? nt

[Faryn Balyncd]

108. Why did your mother cry?

[bertman]

113. A very interesting and witty story, but I know rich people who are FAR

different from that. They are generous, kind, very liberal, and are involved in helping others who are in need.

I also know some sorry-assed poor people who DO milk the system and who DO NOT want to work at ANY job because it requires that they get out of bed on a schedule.

The poor are no more noble or moral than the rich. They're just a lot poorer.

Also, your mom's frivolous remodeling projects may seem like throwing away her money, but I suspect that the carpenters, electricians, masons, plumbers, sheetrockers, painters, etc., etc. who do the work are very glad she is spending her money by hiring them. Of course, it would be nice if she were hiring them to remodel the homes of people like yourself, but it's her money.

[MrMickeysMom]

114. Chris, I appreciate what you said...

... The picture you paint seems one that is more of a sociopath than rich. I'm sure it's a matter of her being a heartless person, who even though adopted you and acted like your mother, obviously had something missing.

God, I feel sorry for her. Look at what people like her do for finding nirvana...

I wish you could cut and paste this entire thread and just send it to her e-mail, which I'm sure will find her, wherever she is.

Best to you.

[Beacool]

115. I think that the real issue is not your mother's wealth.

The real problem seems to be that she's a narcissistic, self absorbed, sorry excuse of a human being and mother. She probably would be a bad mother regardless of her bank account. The amount of wealth she possesses just adds an extra layer to her selfishness because she is in a position to help you and your family and she evidently couldn't care less about the wellbeing of her child and grandchildren. If I were you I would keep her away from me as much as possible for my own peace of mind. Some day she may learn to regret the way she has chosen to live. Some day she will be an old lady with no one around her but her fake friends. In life what goes around, comes around.

I'm sorry, every child deserves better.

:hug:

[steve2470]

128. You hit the nail on the head.

His mother could be using her wealth to help her family and friends and humanity and STILL enjoy it.

Instead, it's all about her.

[gateley]

142. His stories of her reminded me of the mother on Two and a Half Men. nt

[Beacool]

215. Yeah, but even she exhibited more humanity.

:-(

[MasonJar]

118. I totally diagree with your premise. Many wealthy people are productive and

generous in their contributions to the welfare of mankind. Many are highly supportive of the Democratic Party. Mark Damon comes to mind, as do many others. Warren Buffet I understand lives in a relatively modest home, considering his riches and is happy to pay more taxes. Many wealthy people give inordinate amount of time and money to worthy causes. Many also work long hours in worthy professions. You should not stereotype people.

[KT2000]

119. I am with you

especially your last paragraph. I do take comfort in the fact that living with lots in a world of want all around me would be impossible.

[Kievan Rus]

121. I have an extremely selfish upper-middle class family friend...

that is rather snobbish and aspires to be in the upper class one day, having bought the Horatio Alger bullshit hook, line, and sinker.

What is most notable about him is that he constantly tries to convince other people to be an elitist, selfish snob just like him. I can remember several occasions when he's tried to convince me to join the dark side and become an elitist snob like him. He's failed miserably.

What irritates me the most is that he's always trying to convince people to become a bitter asshole like him; and he's quite bad at it, actually.

[BillyJack]

124. K & R - Are we related? eom

[tavalon]

134. Okay, you're poor and your mom is outrageously rich but self absorbed

Does she notice or care that you and your family are scrambling? Is this just beneath her radar?

[Chris_Texas]

143. She knows, but it's easier to pretend

Just like its EASIER to pretend that tax cuts for billionaires are good for the deficit (and poor), or a hundred million gallons of oil dumped into the gulf can just magically disappear in a week, or that this time your boyfriend really means it and he'll never ever hit you again, or that Obama really WANTED a public option...

It's always easy to believe someone who is telling you what you want to hear, and who knows what you want to hear better than YOU. And we all do it, obviously. The difference maybe is that some of us lie to ourselves about different things, and when it comes to greed and our own sense of entitlement, maybe our appetites are a bit smaller.

[ipaint]

135. I know rich people, too.

I have a crappy job cleaning their nasty toilets and kitchens, picking up after their brats and cleaning up after their dogs which they more often than not let piss and shit IN the house.

They are surrounded by comforts for every need and want and live in what I have come to refer to as a disneyland life. They all live in artificial gated communities in well to do areas which keep the "riff raff" out of sight and out of mind. A totally phoney construct where the working poor exist only to serve their needs. They are parasites.

"When someone works for less pay than she can live on — when, for example, she goes hungry so that you can eat more cheaply and conveniently — then she has made a great sacrifice for you, she has made you a gift of some part of her abilities, her health, and her life. The 'working poor,' as they are approvingly termed, are in fact the major philanthropists of our society. They neglect their own children so that the children of others will be cared for; they live in substandard housing so that other homes will be shiny and perfect; they endure privation so that inflation will be low and stock prices high. To be a member of the working poor is to be an anonymous donor, a nameless benefactor, to everyone else."
— Barbara Ehrenreich (Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America)


They wouldn't last two minutes in the real world where needs aren't meant and survival equals suffering.

As far as the generous ones, bullshit. Their charity is self serving as are their tax dodging foundations and philanthropies. The rich are the problem not the solution and their supposed charitable endeavors are for the most part PR to ensure their gluttonous, selfish, immature lifestyle is excused and defended.

[sadbear]

202. Agreed 100%

[FarLeftFist]

136. Phenomenal!

Incredible post.

[Lugnut]

138. Wow!

Your story rings a very large bell for me for reasons I don't care to discuss. I've seen it. I've lived it. I know exactly what you're talking about but you've articulated it more succinctly than I ever could.

[progrocktv]

139. Hate to say this but...

...time to have a long talk with mom and tell her how you feel. You don't need the frustration of hearing her relishing and rubbing in about all of the stuff she's doing, and if she refuses to stop, time to cut mom off! Yes I know it's hard and know it's your mom but any mother that would be acting like that is no mom of mine!

[gateley]

146. Chris_Texas- I'm sorry about your dad. I think your daughter

and wife are lucky to have you - you sound like a wonderful person. :hug:

[toadzilla]

150. am I the only one who just isnt buying this story here?

[Chris_Texas]

160. I think there have been a couple above you.

[cali]

166. why not?

[marcia_nevada]

170. No

You're not the only one. But, it makes for a great story, it gets people all fired up and nobody questions why a guy who's so poor his "house", obviously a rental, is leaking, yet he's donating to DU.

[cali]

177. he's not necessarily donating

a lot of us have stars through the kindness of others.

[marcia_nevada]

180. That's true.

However, instead of donating to DU, wouldn't that money be put to better use by the OP himself? In order for another DU'er to be that generous, they would have to know that the OP didn't have the funds available for a donation himself. I just have a hard time swallowing a story about a horrible, rich mother, so out of touch with her child who lives in a house needing so many repairs, but yet, the OP is either donating his own money or having money donated in his name, to DU. The OP is in a dire financial situation because of his mother. The money isn't needed by DU, but needed by him.

[cali]

181. wrong. no one knows my particulars

but someone donated a star to me during the recent fundraiser here. You really don't know a thing and you're leaping to conclusions.

[marcia_nevada]

182. it's not much of a leap

I'm sorry, the "my rich mother is a horrible person" post...what if it's not true? What if this was your child, trying to just get 'recs' on a message board? How would you feel if you were the parent of a child out there posting untruths about you? There's conveniently, an excuse for everything.

"someone else donated money in my name" He doesn't ask for help because she should offer it first. When they had a conversation about how difficult his Christmas would be, she changed the subject to ask about his wife's family flying in. I guess her family doesn't know of their dire situation either? But, he gets recs, and all over the internet there are posts like this, people simply making up stories disparaging their own families just to get 'recs' or other attention in the forum in which they are posting.

[cali]

188. of course it's a leap. and if my kid did such a thing

I'd wonder where I went wrong that he felt the need to do such a thing. "There's conveniently an excuse for everything"? Where did that come from? Maybe you'd be happier in sicko freeperville. You sound like you'd fit right in with the dog shit there.

I doubt you'll last long here.

[marcia_nevada]

190. You're right, I may not.

I don't follow the crowd and when I see a load of BS, I'm not afraid to say it, even if it means I'm attacked.

Do I believe the OP? No. I'm not alone, either. Others posting in this thread don't believe it, either, but it sure does make for a great thread to bash his mother, doesn't it?

[hobbit709]

204. I know some people whose mothers were worse.

and they didn't have money, they were just awful people. Some mothers deserve their bashing, just like some fathers and some children.

[marcia_nevada]

210. Really?

So you condone the OP demonizing his mother in this forum because other mothers are bad? Are the fathers bad, too? Or, is it just the mothers who deserve to be bashed? OP claims he was adopted by his mother who married money. Did she marry someone other than his adoptive father? The father might be deceased or not in the picture, but she married the money and now OP is upset that the mother won't offer him money, yet he donated to DU?

[hobbit709]

214. You seem to have a problem with someone that doesn't worship their mother.

and if you will read my post you will note that I said some fathers and children too deserve to be bashed.

I haven't talked or communicated with my father for 40 years. I don't even know if he's still alive but my mother would probably let me know if he died.

My father was a raging drunk who would come home after blowing his paycheck on booze and who knows what else. His idea of family time was to take off his belt and use it on us with the buckle end. I got out of there as soon as I could and never looked back. My mother finally divorced him a few years after I left.

[marcia_nevada]

225. I dislike the demonization of mothers.

OP demonizes his mother, she married money, adopted him but won't help him out even though he has enough money to donate to DU. Or, have someone donate in his name after posting here for a few weeks.

The father isn't demonized by the OP. Only the mother.

[hobbit709]

227. You didn't read the part where the father is dead?

[marcia_nevada]

235. No.

Where in his original post is the fact that his father passed? If I missed it in his subsequent demonization of his mother posts, I apologize.

The father didn't realize that the mother would be horrible and didn't leave money for OP and his adopted brother? In every turn of this story, there are questions.

My distaste for this is the mothers being demonized. If this story isn't true, how will the mother feel knowing that her son is posting on a forum to demonize her? All while he's either donating TO that forum or having money donated in his name?

Forgive me for questioning yet another demonization of mothers post. I don't follow the crowd, nor am I afraid to ask questions, even if it results in name calling or attacks.

[hobbit709]

238. I love my mother but she is not a saint.

Neither is she a demon. I also understand some of the things she had to do to survive in her youth. Most of which today's Morality Police types would condemn her for.

[Melinda]

230. SInce you're new, you seem to have missed the valentine's star donations...

along with so many other similar acts here on DU. Those of us who can purchase stars for those who can't, and we do so anon. Assumptions such as yours are best checked at the door.

"...it gets people all fired up and nobody questions why a guy who's so poor his "house", obviously a rental, is leaking, yet he's donating to DU."

Twice in one sentence. Congrats.

Welcome to DU; enjoy your stay.

[Waiting For Everyman]

163. Your mom sounds just like my late husband's mother.

"Twisted" and "evil" are two words I would use too. She's done intentionally mean things with her money though, that would make your mom seem like a saint. And all the while, she thinks she's morally and ethically perfect, which is the most ludicrous arrogance. Easily the most heartless, cold-blooded person I ever met, and the prissiest along with it. She's 80-something. I don't even know if she's still alive or not, I don't hear from her and don't want to.

But I know one thing - she can't take it with her. We come into this world with nothing, and we go out the same way. Even if it's only in the last minute of her life, she'll have to deal with that reality. And the fact that not all the money in the world can buy her one extra minute. Death is the one thing that is bigger and badder than the rich, the one thing they can't get around or buy off.

[vicarofrevelwood]

167. When you have a heart you want to help others. Their is,

a problem in the head when you can't feel for your fellow man/woman.

[Evoman]

168. There are nice rich people too...well fuck them. I don't care...not enough to make a difference.

You know what? I'll generalize all I fucking want. That there are a couple of nice wealthy people doesn't change the fact that a large majority of them are self-absorbed twats who don't give a shit about anything other than keeping up with Buffy and Skipper Blueblood.

I've known enough of them and you hear the best shit when they don't know your not one of them.

I will say this....it would be a lot better for them to learn about reality by opening their own eyes, because when the shit hits the fan, I'll be more than happy to show them myself. Your planes and boats can only get you so far, and where ever you go, I guarantee it will never be too far from someone like me.

[janet118]

194. Pirate Jenny sez . . .

Kill the Rich!!!

You gentlemen can say, "Hey gal, finish them floors!
Get upstairs! What's wrong with you! Earn your keep here!
You toss me your tips
And look out to the ships
But I'm counting your heads
As I'm making the beds
Cuz there's nobody gonna sleep here, tonight
Nobody's gonna sleep here!

- Bertolt Brecht, Kurt Weill

[marcia_nevada]

169. I'm so sorry to hear of your financial plight

Chris, I'm really sorry to hear of your financial plight. I'm also sorry that your rich mother is so insensitive to your financial woes.

Are you sure you're as poor as you claim? You donated to DU. Voluntary donation. You're not feeding your family in order to donate to DU? Really? I honestly don't think the admins want you going without food in order to send them money, I really don't. In the future, think before you donate money to people who aren't poor like you.

[whathehell]

174. Your mother

is worth "tens of millions" and

she has never offered you any sort of monetary help?

[Rockholm]

191. Your thread has been picked up by some stoopid conservative website.

Was this you grand plan?

http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php?topic=56356.0

[hobbit709]

196. How many times are going to post this on this thread?

[Rockholm]

198. Maybe once more for good meaure.

What's it to you anyway?

[hobbit709]

199. My question is what's it to you?

And following a poster around on the internet comes close to stalking.

[Rockholm]

203. Dear Person......

I was googling the people in this person's story and upon typing in Thad Braxton Wedding, the first thread that popped up was the conservative mocking thread.
Wasn't following a poster. Me thinks you and the OP are from TX. Should I conclude you are the SAME person?

[Chris_Texas]

239. You should conclude that the name "Thad Braxton", like all the other names...

Are MADE UP. Or, did you actually believe my family is friends with the "Snobersons" and the "McMillions."

Was I supposed to post people's REAL names on a discussion forum?

[Rockholm]

246. Yawn.

[Seedersandleechers]

206. It would be my guess, YES

Good find!

[Hugabear]

248. Newsflash - a lot of us get our threads picked up by conservative sites

If you've been around DU for awhile, there's a pretty good chance that you've had some threads posted on some of those knuckle-dragger sites.

[rucky]

193. I'm afraid I can vouch for this 9 out of 10 times.

It's really hard to hold a conversation with someone like that, but they seem to manage just fine in their circles. Different worlds, indeed.

[tblue37]

195. The husband of a friend of mine just heard that his mother

made about a million dollars on a land sale. The first thing she did was tell him that he'd better not ask for any money, even though he and his wife and two sons are struggling desperately. They have a 17-month-old and a 5-year-old. The 5-year-old boy is from the husband's previous relationship, but they pay child support and also have him fairly frequently.

He had been an independent contractor, and when everyone was building he made good money, but then the recession happened and his business went belly-up through no fault of his own. Right now his wife has a decent job, though she's had it for only about 7 months, and he is staying home with their 17-month-old and 5-year-old, since when he worked he could only find part-time jobs in this area. They are slowly paying down the debts that piled up when they both had only part-time jobs. If nothing terrible happens, they should be okay in about a year. But in the meantime, they have had their water shut off for several months, though they've got it back on now, and other such misfortunes.

The wife has health insurance available through her job, but cannot afford to use it except for herself (so she can keep working) and the baby, so the husband has no health insurance, though he does have health problems and needs to see a doctor, which they can't afford.

These are hardworking people who want to work full-time, but they were unable to get real jobs. The wife finally did get one, though it involves long hours and she has a long commute each day, leaving home around 7:00 a.m. and getting home around 7:00 p.m.

I also have adult children. I cannot imagine how a mother could watch her kids struggle like that and not want to help, even if she didn't have a lot of money. I help my kids all the time, even though I am always on the edge financially myself. But this woman's first concern when she got that money was to make sure her son understood that she would not help him out, even though he had never asked her for help.

[marcia_nevada]

205. Another mother demonized.......

Call me the names you want, attack me all you want, but the posts here demonizing the mothers are disgusting. You know so much about your friend's situation, including private conversations he's had with his mother immediately after she made money on a land deal? Okay.

Where are the rich fathers in all of this? Or, are you only attacking mothers?

[whistler162]

197. Change the R word to the N word and all will understand

from whence you derive your intelligence!

[rhett o rick]

200. The wealthy class suffer from class sociopathy. nm

[marcia_nevada]

207. I'll be crystal clear.

I don't buy this demonization of the OP's nother. After two weeks on DU, someone else donated in his name, knowing that he's in his horrible financial position? Totally unrealistic. Would the OP donate to DU if he was in such horrible financial condition? Perhaps. Foolish? Perhaps. What bothers me about posts like this, and yes, I've lurked for some time before deciding to finally start posting (to be attacked) is that people are talking about their own mothers, their own parents, and obviously either embellishing on the truth or simply making it up to get 'recs'.

Stop demonizing your parents, stop making up stuff. There's plenty to discuss without foolishly demonizing your own mother.

[marions ghost]

259. where u been?

Demons are everywhere. Don't you know any?

[sadbear]

208. Is the accumulation of wealth a liberal value?

I see a lot of folk here defend liberal rich people, but I have to ask, would a true liberal even accumulate that kind of wealth?

[PATRICK]

213. Money corrupts

Funny how somehow the Foodstamp program came under RW talking point debate because among the poor are petty criminals and addicts. The same is true for the coke sniffing DWI rich who lately were shooting darts at the Constitution in the oval office. Well, enough of that.

It would seem money corruption, especially within generational and established mega corporations vacates the soul destroys reasoning and more often than seems rational to normal human beings produce sadistic harm and vain, useless enterprises. The plight of the jerk raised by an abusive parent or no parents can elicit more compassion than the children of the rich who are morally adrift and guaranteed among their friends no stress and all the luxuries of wealth. A few might actually succeed in being a benefit to others, actually fleeing the corruption of money all around them. Maybe the statistics are in reverse depending on relative wealth- regarding knowledge, compassion, determination to achieve justice. The philanthropic few are of course well known although there is some slight reticence in the corporate media in displaying the minority lifestyle of Mammon, just as there is about discussing the real plight of vast majority.

A mother who values the wasteful game of wealth over family has not just forgotten her real ties to this world but has sacrificed them on the perfumed high altar. That is moral horror beyond the outrage and moral horror flourishes among the obscene rich as they throw our world into that black hole.

Even a non-believer can appreciate the direct and easy condemnation of wealth. Love money and you hate God. And of course mankind in general. You can't do both and those who try induce vomit. The recent attempts by billionaires to look philanthropic might be the only good they ever did in their lives but the assurance of being human and serving their brothers and sisters is always simple. Give it all away like people on the lower rungs do every day. It is not a big deal compared to gutting of your person-hood and humanity. Despite all you have been taught for thousands of years, amounts of money never equate to human value.

[madmom]

218. My very first thought when I read this was....

you may consider yourself poor, BUT, you know you will not starve. There are people out there who don't have a rich mother to hit up for food no matter how much it may hurt to do so. I doubt your mother would let you or any of your family starve or freeze to death, if it came right down to it. There really are people out there that have no such option.:eyes:

[david_vincent]

231. Here's a true story

if anyone reads this far down the thread...

A friend of mine owns a newsstand. He'll custom order magazines for people if he's sure they'll come in and buy them. So a wealthy woman from an exclusive nearby neighborhood arranged with him to get some of those European fashion mags for her, the ones that cost $20 - $30 a copy.

In the aftermath of 9/11, all air traffic was grounded, of course. So these magazines didn't make their way to the newsstand; they were stuck in transit somewhere.

This woman comes in -- mind you, this was just a day or two after 9/11 -- and she starts giving him grief that her magazines hadn't arrived !!! Can you believe it? The whole country was in agony and she was bitching him out about her magazines not being there.

Being the owner and therefore having no one above him to answer to, my friend looked her right in the eye and said, "Lady, no one gives a fuck about your stupid magazines." She walked away, speechless in indignation, and never showed her face again.

[marcia_nevada]

236. it's almost always a woman

It's rarely a "wealthy man comes in"................

[sadbear]

237. Yeah, why do you think that is?

[babydollhead]

232. a local made big in Hollywood, here

He bought $20,000 of paintings from an artist,Ron Donahue,and the artist quit his day job to paint all the time. $20,000 felt like enough to him, to give in to the work of being an artist. The people with the money should spend it and share it to foster creativity.

[DirkGently]

233. Nailed it. Somehow the "Protestant work ethic" has become anti-cooperative ethos.

This is a beautiful piece of writing. "Toenail flosser?" :spray:

Thanks for sharing it.

[tpsbmam]

240. Unrec'd. Sorry, but what a load of bullshit.

Your mother sounds absolutely awful -- sorry to be so blunt, but it seems you have the same opinion.

I also know rich people -- quite a lot of them, in fact. They are individuals who, like all of us, really differ in their approaches to the world and their asshole-ness. I know two uber-richies who I think are assholes and come pretty close to what you described about your Mom. There are differences even there -- they would never let their children suffer the way you have been -- they share the wealth with their families. And both give substantial amounts to charity. Now, in the case of the uber-rich, some do it from their hearts and really try to make the world a better place with their donations. And some give just because it's good PR and an excellent tax deduction. The two people I described above definitely fall in the latter category.

Now for the rich people I know that are nothing like your Mom. I know down-to-earth, caring and generous rich people. Since I know her best, I'll describe my sister. She married an incredibly wealthy man, who happens to be one of the kindest people I know.

I was entering grad school and had gotten rid of all of my furniture, etc when I moved out of NYC and started on this new adventure. I ended up finding this big old house to rent that was the same price as the apartments I'd looked at. Then I had to furnish the damn place. My sister and BIL have warehouses (for office furniture, etc). They had lots of their old furniture in the warehouses. They literally furnished my house! Two of the men who worked for my BIL drove the stuff to my house and, while they were putting it in the house, I got talking to one of the men. He'd worked for my BIL for a long time (I can't remember how long now....like 20+ years). He adored my BIL! The most touching story he told me was about his daughter being diagnosed with cancer when she was a little kid. My BIL was on the board of the major hospital in the city. He made damn sure that kid and her family were well taken care of. They had very good health insurance through work but there were still big expenses that weren't covered. My BIL took care of all of it -- they never had to pay for anything. And he gave this guy as much time as he needed off without consideration of sick days or vacation days -- he was paid no matter how long he took off and the time was never deducted from his contracted time off.


These same people had a vacation place elsewhere. Mind you, no mcmansion.....it started with my BIL buying a beautiful piece of land and he and his friends constructed a small log house on the property. Over he years the house expanded but never to anything grand - a very nice middle-class house. They finally sold that about a year ago (after owning and using it for 30 or so years) and bought a bigger, fancier one in the same town and yes, they do also own a lovely house elsewhere. They use both regularly. Oh, and they don't travel much at all -- when they do, it's my BIL for business, my sister for board meetings at the various non-profit organizations she is on the board of and to see their kids, who are all away at college now.

Anyway, they heard about a family in the town where they had the log cabin. This family had their house burn down just before Christmas -- they lost everything. They were a working family, not poor but not yet middle-class in terms of income. They found a house to rent but it was unfurnished. Well, my sis and BIL again went to their warehouses and furnished the house for this family. But beyond that (I knew some of this and a mutual friend just told me about what they did above and beyond what I knew) they 1) went to the toy store and made sure the kids had a glorious Christmas, 2) gave gift certificates to the parents so they could buy clothes and household stuff (pots, pans, etc) for themselves and their children and 3) gave them cash to help with first/last months rent, etc (they had been able to pay it but it was a HUGE strain and left them with nothing to buy necessary stuff). And this was all done very quietly -- no one beyond a few family members and a couple of close friends knew anything about it.

The last thing they did for me was when my last whopper of an MS exacerbation left me a with paraparesis. I had a wonderful bed that I loved....and it was too high for me to get into. I sadly had to sell it and start again. My sis and BIL stepped in, without being asked, and insisted that I get a top-of-the line mechanical bed (since getting out of bed and some other stuff was pretty difficult). Believe me, I'm eternally grateful!

And I know a number of rich people who are like my sis and BIL. I also know of rich who aren't like that. To use just two examples, Brad Pitt in New Orleans. Through Make It Right, which he and others started, they are slowly rebuilding the 9th ward. They're building green and building smartly so that another hurricane hopefully wouldn't have the same devastating effect. Here is one example:



And he has been down there A LOT helping with the work, getting to know the families, etc. It's not some rich celebrity throwing money at the problem, he's very much a vital part of the program. How about Sean Penn in Haiti? Nothing like you described about your Mom.

I'm sad for you that your mother is the way she is, but please don't think she is representative of ALL rich people -- she's not.

[sadbear]

242. Thank goodness some rich folk feel guilt

Otherwise, they'd ALL be assholes.

[renate]

260. that's so heartwarming!

Your brother-in-law is truly rich because of his sweet spirit. Give him and your sister a hug for me sometime! :hug:

[Locrian]

241. "When you are rich you compete with your friends, when you are poor you want to help them."

>>When you are rich you compete with your friends, when you are poor you want to help them.

Best. Line. Ever.

[firehorse]

244. Your mom sounds a lot like my mom

What I did though was make the mistake of making co-dependent choices that lead to me being an under-earner because when growing up she raised me to believe that I would inherit. My mom is not rich, but she is well off and retired early, and she has bought and sold houses too. When I was 30 I found out I had a full blood sister after being raised to believe my whole life that I was an only child and the end of the family line. The day I found out about her, I was also told that I lost my inheritance to her - the house I grew up in.

This was a death blow to me, and it wasn't about the money, it was about feeling annihilated, discarded and replaced for no good reason. I didn't do anything wrong to deserve this. I worked through Junior High, and High School, and I paid my way through college. Even though I love my new sister and she's the best thing in my life, its still a hard nut to swallow always feeling discarded and rejected by my mother.

I tried for another few years to accept my mom's decision and my feelings of annihilation, and had lots of therapy, while I grieved the losses of identity and feeling betrayed. But eventually, I had to cut off all ties with my mom, and let go of the idea that I would inherit a dime. It was hard to listen how she would donate money to the local theater, buying bricks to put her name on it, and hard to hear about how she would take the woman to Europe who does her nails or hair, while I was struggling in poverty but thankfully on medicaid. I could have gotten food stamps if I wanted to, but I didn't. If I did, it felt like my mom won.

I'm trying to rebuild my life, build my business, and get out of the mentality of low self worth because that for me was at the root of my under-earning. My mother is a narcissist and a sober alcoholic. She doesn't understand basic things like love, or how to have an inclusive healthy family without nihilating another. Looking back it was a noose around my neck with her dangling an inheritance, a way for her to control. I'm free now. It's just better for me and my self worth to focus on my own life and not hers. I have a lot of things to complain about, but also a lot of gratitude for what I do have. I'm a woman in my 40's and I slowly one room at a time renovated my 305 square foot apartment together with the sweat equity with my bf. We put floors in without knowing what we were doing, tiles, cemented frames of windows, demo'd, etc. We did this all without my mother. We did this while I worked on the street as a vendor selling things I made.

Good luck to you, I know rich people too. But their business is not mine.

[bvar22]

247. It doesn't matter whether some RICH people are nice, or not.

What matters is that there has been a Class War in America,
and the RICH have WON.

If you Work for a Living,
you, and your children, have LOST.

The RICH now own BOTH Political Parties,
so simply voting won't "change" anything.

Either get used to that idea,
or start fighting to take back some of what has been taken from YOU and YOUR children.
"NICE" no longer matters.

[Chris_Texas]

253. To all those questioning my honesty...

I have got to say that I am BAFFLED. Nothing that I posted was particularly incredible or even unusual. Nor did I expect this, my first thread, to get any attention at all. I am not thrilled that it has, it's a it stressful honestly, and had I known I would have taken the time to write it better, perhaps rant less and think more. Ah well...

I have never donated to DU. Someone gave me a star (along with some valentines hearts) a day or so after I joined. To whoever that was, thanks again! And another thank you to everyone who took the time to read my rant.

Back to my credibility. At first, like I said above, I was really surprised to see this and dismissed the people posting these comments as trolling. Apparently not.

However, to be fair, there is a sliver of truth to the accusation. It is impossible to condense a lifetime into a forum post and expect it to give a complete picture, nor have I made any attempt to do so.

I started this thread talking about the rich people I have known, and from this limited pool I made some (admittedly unfair) blanket statements about ALL rich people. Quite a few of you have corrected me, giving numerous examples showing that rich or poor, people are people. Some are great, some suck (it appears that a few posting here have put me into that later category.)

[Evoman]

256. Ha...don't take it so hard. DU is equal parts amazing great people and judgemental assholes.

And many times both in the same person. The key is not to get offended when someone takes you to task for something stupid.

Also, I find that a lot of DUers hate when you generalize, no matter what it's about. Post a thread on how all psychopathic cannibal killers are deranged assholes, and someone will pop up and tell you how he knows a psycho killer who donates a lot of money to charities and would give you the skin off his back (that he cut off his last victim) if you asked, SO DON'T GENERALIZE!!!!

Hang in there.

[firehorse]

257. I don't think its your honesty that is being questioned

Your mom's money is hers, and she can do with it whatever she wants with it. She can share it with you, or she can choose to keep it and rub it in your face. But when you are an adult, there are no victims, just volunteers. If you don't want to hear about her wealth, then get boundaries. Tell her you don't want to hear about it. Or ask her for some money if you need it to fix your bathroom floor.

For me, I had to cut off ties with my mom. My mom is a narcissist with no empathy. Showing her how broke I was or asking for financial help for someone like her opens up way to emotional abuse. My life is much better without her judgement, pity, rejection, etc.

[progrocktv]

262. Agreed

Ditch her. You don't need to hear this and it affects your emotional health and well being. You need to take care of YOU (obviously your mom doesn't give a shit so she's just more baggage). You'll feel better and not have that stress on your moral (you have enough to deal with)

[anAustralianobserver]

264. "we all do it" - I'm not sure.

"we all do it, obviously. The difference maybe is that some of us lie to ourselves about different things, and when it comes to greed and our own sense of entitlement, maybe our appetites are a bit smaller."


I agree most of us lie to ourselves about things - but most people on a board like this have got to a level of maturity where they realise the value of continuing self-development and social awareness-development (whether they're poor or rich).

Maybe rich (and some poor) money-oriented narcissists have part of their psyche stuck at a 4yo level where their personal identity is mainly object-rather-than-people oriented, and haven't yet realised the value of developing their personal and social integrity.

[Nikia]

265. It's not just "rich" parents who refuse to help their adult children in any way

Many rich parents help their children financially. I'm sure most of her rich friends do whether outright payments or by getting them set up with a good job or business.
When parents are significantly better off financially than their children and refuse to help it can be for several reasons. They may wish to punish you for some "bad" decision that you made whether that is choice of spouse,education, or career or using drugs or buying some items on credit that you couldn't afford. They may believe that it is a virtue to struggle for everything can get. In a case with a divorce, they may believe that if the other parent doesn't help, neither should they. When a parent has remarried, you must also consider their spouse who may apply pressure to keep them from helping.
One of the worst cases of a parent not helping came from a woman who I worked with. She and her husband probably made around $60,000/year combined. They were tight with their money and had two children in their late teens. The daughter wanted to go to college, but did not get much financial aid since her parents made enough to contribute. They refused to help since college was only benefitting her. The girl worked 2 full time jobs while going to school full time. She sold everything she had minus a few pairs of clothes. Her mother thought that it was bad that she sold some of that stuff but "it was her choice to go to college." She acknowledged that they had plenty of money saved up, but no one ever helped her. After a year of declining health,which the mother was aware of, the girl ended up in the ER close to death. She dropped out of school, of course. Luckily, her parents did let her live at home while she recovered enough to work. My coworker never did directly acknowledge her role in her daughter's problems. She never showed any compassion while she watched her daughter almost kill herself. "It was her choice to go to college."
It isn't just the rich who would let their child suffer when they could have helped.

[blueamy66]

268. WHAT?

You're kidding, right?

I know middle class people, who live paycheck to paycheck. I'm one of them.

Call your Mom and ask for some $ and then sleep well at night. My heart bleeds for you.

What is the point of your post??????

[marions ghost]

271. No matter how much Chris asks...

his mother will likely never give him any money.

It's about the personality, dontcha know? Many people who are rich "never have enough" and would not think of sharing. And many use the power their money gives them to with-hold affection from family members.

Get real. Plenty of people come from families that have money and the offspring never see a penny of it.