Homeless with 15 children..."Somebody needs to be held accountable"

[True Earthling]

This is an extreme example of a chronic social problem... nationally, over 70% of black children live with one parent.

This is why pregnancy prevention and parenting programs should be standard curriculum in every school for pre-teens....

(please excuse the Faux link)
http://nation.foxnews.com/homelessness/2011/12/01/homeless-lady-15-kids-somebody-needs-pay-all-my-children

The increase in single-parent families was one of 10 indicators of children's health and economic well-being examined in Kids Count, an annual report by the Annie E. Casey Foundation.

The trend concerns local advocates for children.

"It has a major impact on the financial stability of those families," said Barbara Turpin of the Ohio Children's Defense Fund.

"When you have two parents, both are often working, which brings more resources into the family and other benefits like health insurance. When there is only one parent, that parent takes on double duty, and you can only stretch yourself so thin."

Family structure is a strong gauge of child well-being, researchers say, because single-parent families tend to have less money and move more frequently, and they are generally less stable, putting children at risk of poor grades and behavioral problems.

Nationwide, the rate of children in single-parent families has tripled since 1970, with black children and other minorities disproportionately affected. Reversing that trend would reduce the number of children growing up in poverty and improve the quality of their lives, Turpin said.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2010/07/27/more-ohio-kids-living-with-single-parents.html

[Ineeda]

1. Two, three kids

can be blamed on 'accidents' or poor education. Fifteen (!) is just plain irresponsible. However, I agree that proper sex education should begin early, and should be mandatory in our public school system, not just at home.

[lbrtbell]

24. +1

[MADem]

30. My first thought was "Grandmother raising her kids and her kids' kids"

but I see that's not the case. Many families are large because children are taken in from siblings or adult children, either because of illness or death in the family, or other reasons.

That woman needs to take two aspirin, and hold them between her knees. Forever.

[liberalhistorian]

116. What about the fathers? Women don't get

pregnant on their own, you know, and it's not just women who need to be responsible.

[MADem]

124. The fathers are scum. They should pay support for their children and not leave the woman hanging.

There are several of them in this woman's case.

They're also lazy ass bastards who need lessons in Condom 101--particularly if they are lying down with a woman who has a lot of children to begin with.

Each child this woman has had has a pair of real "winners" for parents--and the losers here are the kids.

[Liquorice]

271. I agree, but in the video the woman says the father of 10 of the 15 children is in prison. nt

[MADem]

285. He clearly didn't have any kind of savings plan in place against the day

he was carted off to the big house. She's just gonna have to work to support those children. She probably should have thought about that before she decided to have that many.

That said, there are plenty of programs in place that will provide real help (food stamps, fuel assistance, daycare, etc.) for people who meet poverty definitions--and unless she's making pretty big money, she's probably meeting the definition of poverty. She just needs to get a hold of a social worker and get some decent advice.

If after all that, she cannot support her children, there's always foster care. Not optimal, but beats starving.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

151. Yes, but if even the law cannot track them down or hold them accountable...

What to do, except women need to put themselves first, and popping out a bunch of kids is not putting themselves first. I think women need counseling before they go get themselves pregnant, particularly when they're very young or kids.

[JoeyT]

202. Sadly the only pregnancy counciling we can get the

government to spring for is funding groups that put up fake abortion clinics to mislead and harass women.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

244. I don't understand why the govt simply doesn't deny funds to fake (Bible-banging) abortion clinics

No govt money should go to anything religious, even if it's remotely religious.

[Lance_Boyle]

162. 'Fathers' are a dime a dozen.

Each kid is worth hundreds of dollars per month. Do the math, and place the responsibility where it belongs - on the person whose *CHOICE* brings each of those new lives into the world.

[Tsiyu]

216. And another RightWing talking point rears its ugly head

(((((((((Ding!Ding!Ding!))))))))))))

I think that about covers them all....eugenics, dirty poor women, forced sterilization, men aren't responsible for the kids they help create......where the hell am I???

[dana_b]

226. I know, right??!!

jeezus H..... it's all our fault - we women who have all the choice and men can go on their merry way. If we are poor - well, that's our fault too.

I really want to kick something right now.

[Tsiyu]

237. LOL

Oh, yeah. Double standards can be infuriating. The ones oozing out of this thread are quite exasperating, for sure.

It takes two people to create human life. It's sad when one gender feels absolutely zero responsibility, and then uses "choice" to justify that self-chosen irresponsibility.

[blueamy66]

98. [phone]

stupid people

[Brickbat]

2. More jobs that support only one working parent would help, too, instead of making a two-income

family the baseline.

[blueamy66]

99. ummmm, I don't think that even a 2 parent working family

could support 15 kids in a proper manner

quit popping out kids

Jesus

[Sarah Ibarruri]

152. You're right. I know someone who adopted 6 kids. The husband makes great money...

and they're having financial troubles. Kids are EXPENSIVE!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

3. As someone who chose not to have children (yes, I know that sounds odd)...

I don't 'get' people who have kids. (Yes, I know). I do like kids, for a while, but I like being able to not have them. My time is mine, I do with it what I desire, and I love it. That's why it baffles me why any woman would be dying to have kids.

There are cultures within which getting pregnant is considered a romantic thing. I think the American culture is one of those cultures. There are some cultures in which it is far more romantic than in the American, but it's far too 'romantic' for my tastes.

What's REALLY scary is that I've heard high school girls actually EXPRESS a desire to have a child by this guy or that one. My hair stands on end when I hear that. What the hell for????? To tie themselves down? To stop their childhood and suddenly have to do a heck of a lot of housekeeping and childrearing? Do they not realize that their lives will change from enjoyable to being 24/7 nannies for the next 18+ years, and housekeepers, that they won't be able to have fun, and that their budget will drop dramatically? I think they're engaging in illogical thinking, being dreamers, thinking that money grows on trees, and babies change their own diapers.

Honestly, I DO NOT get it. I suspect the reality of getting pregnant and having kids needs to be taught in schools, and that the glorification of pregnancy and childrearing has got to stop. It has to be presented in the realistic light of what it truly is: a form of enslavement and impoverishment.

Sure, if one has a lot of money and can afford to hire nannies, housekeepers, and all kinds of help, fine. But to be poor, and want to diminish one's chances at living life even further? I don't GET IT!

[joeglow3]

4. You can have kids or you can have everything else

As the father of 3 kids, I can say fatherhood is worth every second for me.

[REP]

15. I chose everything else, including happiness and love

Oh yes. I'm child free.

[Skittles]

34. but don't you know, REP?

you cannot POSSIBLY be happy unless you reproduce!!! GET WITH THE PROGRAM!!! :rofl:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

44. Oooh that's one scary thought! lol nt

[joeglow3]

57. You hearing things?

I never judged you. I find it odd how so many childless people feel the need to do so here. Maybe because I have the responsibility to teach children I don't feel the need to act like one.

[GoCubsGo]

100. Actually, it works both ways.

I see plenty of judging of those who choose not to have children here, too. You should go back and re-read your post, because judging is EXACTLY what you are doing here.

[Tsiyu]

102. Links?

Not saying you're being false here, just have never seen anyone on DU put down anyone else for their choice not to bear children.

Having had a few, I fully understand why others wouldn't want kids.

I've just never seen this judgment you speak of, and would like to know who is so crass on DU as to criticize someone for the choice not to have kids.

[liberalhistorian]

122. I've never seen it either, but I've seen plenty of it the

other way against those of us who are parents and who actually enjoy being parents. Now, I understand why people choose not to have children and they have every right to do so. In fact, I can't stand the attitude that, unless you're a parent, you're not a "real" woman or there's something "wrong" with you, that is bullshit. I've known plenty of people who've chosen not to have children, and the shit they've gotten through the years is just crazy. Everyone should be able to decide for themselves the very personal issue of children (as well as marriage) without any judgment from people who don't have to live their life. I've never understood forcing parenthood on people, anyway, or calling it "selfish" that someone doesn't want kids. No, it's more selfish to have children when you don't want them as the children suffer because of it.

That being said, there's a contingent on here who are very smug about their child-freeness and who don't hesitate to judge and put down those of us who DO have children. Some of them also seem to think that children should be kept permanently behind locked doors so that they don't have to deal with them when they're out and about. VERY annoying and JUST as bad as those who judge people who choose to be child-free.

[GoCubsGo]

165. Maybe not here...

I was off on that claim, but those of us who don't have them for whatever reason catch all kinds shit everywhere else. Excuse me for being a gunshot.

[joeglow3]

105. Bullshit

I admitted that children essentially take "everything else" from you. I said for myself, it is worth. NEVER did I judge anyone or say any choice was wrong. Don't feed me your bullshit and justify disgusting judgemental behavior.

[GoCubsGo]

166. Pssstt...

When you accuse somebody of acting like a child, you are judging them. And, when you claim I am using "disgusting judgmental behavior" and "feeding you bullshit", YOU ARE PASSING JUDGEMENT on me. No mirrors to look in up on that high horse of yours? :shrug:

[joeglow3]

188. Psssttt...

When I am directly observing your explicit language, I can comment on that. When you are inferring thoughts/views based on what I am saying, there is a HUGE difference.

There is little confusion with the comment:

"you cannot POSSIBLY be happy unless you reproduce!!! GET WITH THE PROGRAM!!! " followed by a smilie making it clear it is a mocking tone.

However, both of you chose to INFER thoughts from my comment of:

"You can have kids or you can have everything else. As the father of 3 kids, I can say fatherhood is worth every second for me."

There is NOTHING in that comment coming down on either side. All I did was quote a popular saying and say I am happy with my decision.

Sorry, but you cannot drag me in the disgusting behavior many here showing. In fact, I find it odd that your claim is really that by pointing it out, I am suddenly just as bad. In short, BULLSHIT.

[GoCubsGo]

193. "I have the responsibility to teach children I don't feel the need to act like one. "

Were you, or were you not saying that Sarah was acting like a child? That is how I read your post. If that is not what you meant, my apologies for reading it incorrectly. If that is indeed what you were saying, I stand by what I posted.

[joeglow3]

209. Okay, that was snarky. I admit it.

I should not have resorted to that. However, I still believe her comments littered throughout this thread are condescending and rude. These are behaviors we see from the bullies on the Christian right. Why we tolerate it here is beyond me.

[GoCubsGo]

214. Yeah, the Christian right are pretty awful.

They are especially horrible to those of us who choose not to procreate. That's part of the reason why some here are especially hypersensitive about this issue. Something to keep in mind when you come across those here you perceive as being condescending and rude...

[Tsiyu]

220. I've heard lots of cruel, insulting comments

from family and strangers over my having six kids.

I would never use these people's rude behavior to justify being similarly rude to the childless. That WOULD be childish.

No one is entitled to belittle anyone else on the issue of choice simply because they are "hypersensitive." And they will be called on it here, whether they feel entitled or not due to their personal "hypersensitivity."

Keep that in mind.

[GoCubsGo]

232. Or, you could just ignore it.

And, try to understand why they are upset, instead of "calling them out", which often only antagonizes them. One person's admonishment is another's fight-picking. Sometimes, it's just best to walk away. A little empathy goes a long way, and if you want people to understand your point of view, you should consider theirs, as well. That's all I was saying. I said NOT ONE DAMN THING about anyone being entitled to being rude or anything else.

[Tsiyu]

235. A little empathy goes a long way

Now I can agree with that.

Not much to be found here, however....

[Sarah Ibarruri]

153. Thanks! :) nt

[Skittles]

139. LOLOL

OMG YOU'RE FUNNY! :rofl:

[Chan790]

266. It's residual reactionary blowback.

Not saying you did anything of the sort ever but there is a long history here on DU of parents getting aggressively-indignant and judgmental with the voluntarily-childless.

I've made the choices that work best for me. Other people are free to do as they like. It's offensive that there are those here who would speak of autonomy in one breath and call decisions against children resulting from that autonomy "immature" in the next. It's absurd and offensive that those same people often go on to state or infer that the childless are acting like children.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

42. Isn't it wonderful? nt

[stuntcat]

234. Yay!

And I get an extra charge outta knowing I haven't given my child the rest of this century.

I've met so many CF people online! We can all be proud :fistbump:

[True Earthling]

5. It's the "Baby Mama" mentality

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tj-FuuzBZk

[Sarah Ibarruri]

9. God almighty, even a song for bullshit like that? I swear it, some women are f****** crazy! nt

[SoCalDem]

16. The problem is that too many "baby-mamas" are 14-17 yr old GIRLS

who hooked up with 18-25 year old MEN, who paid them some attention they were craving, and they thought they could get him to marry them and make a family...the family many of them never had.

These man-boys just go around impregnating young girls like Johnny Appleseeds, and never look back. They often have no jobs and no intention of supporting the kids they create along the way..

A young woman who started having babies at 14 or 15, could easily have 7 or 8 kids by the time she is 25.. As long as there is no social stigma to having children out of wedlock, and the government is there to lend a hand, it's easy to see why so many irresponsible (and uneducated) girls/women get on the merry-go-round.

It's generational too.. If these girls/women..boys/men grew up in families where abnormal is normal, they only know what they lived.

It's terrible to say this, but these young girls should not be allowed to "keep their babies". After a couple of pregnancies with nothing to show for it but stretch marks, maybe they would see the wisdom of birth control.

[gkhouston]

20. "and the government is there to lend a hand".

But not birth control, unless it's for some purpose other than contraception.

[w8liftinglady]

27. my son just told me you have to be over 18 to buy a condom.

!!!Seriously!!!

My other son informed me you needed to be 18 to buy sharpies...I need to get out more

[DBoon]

35. sharpies prevent pregnancy?

never heard that one before

[JVS]

77. I'm thinking it might be local merchants taking it upon themselves to prevent graffiti.

I remember the 7-11 clerk giving me and my friends the stink eye when 4 of us would pull up in a car and buy a dozen eggs. But we got them.

[gkhouston]

65. WTF? I know kids can huff Sharpies, but there aren't many kids

who are going to practice abstinence simply because b/c is unavailable.

[Quantess]

72. That is THE DUMBEST rule, of all time!

I would be there at the store giving someone an earful. That is not a real law, is it? No way...

[Codeine]

134. We sell condoms to kids all the time.

There's no legal age limit to condom purchases.

[w8liftinglady]

143. sadly,this is the general belief in Texas

Both of my sons told me they could not "just walk in" and buy condoms.Maybe it's my area?Maybe they're full of shit(although my middle son DID buy condoms with my ex)

[ThomThom]

189. I heard you can get high sniffing a sharpie

we should be giving out free condoms

[Old Troop]

243. And maybe free sharpies too

[U4ikLefty]

273. Sniffing sharpies leads to babies.

I think I read that somewhere.

[SoCalDem]

29. Penny (not-so) wise & pound foolish.

Of course very young girls often romanticize childbearing, and think that having a baby will make their lives better:cry:

I knew a young woman who did marry (often), and by the time she was 30, she had 5 kids with 4 different Daddies, and never had enough to actually live on without constant help from her parents.. Those poor kids grew up not knowing what a stable family life looked like..and with the constant moving from rat-trap apartment to apartment, they missed so much school.. I lost touch with her, but the last I heard, 3 of her kids had dropped out of school by 10th grade and her two young daughters made her a grandma by the time she was 37...

[jwirr]

46. Lend a hand? Sure if you like living in poverty and having the social

worker breathing down you neck to see that you are "really" eligible. I have been both the social worker and the recipient and the last is not fun.

However I agree, if you do not know the difference and all around you see that is the WAY to live that is what you do.

By the way I raised three girls as a single mother and they are all doing very well. Well except the one that is severely disabled. She is not so good.

As to having children - it is perfectly okay to either have or not have a child - to each his own. What would help these families is to change the life expectations they are faced with. Often when you are poor your children are the only thing of value you have. That should be changed and the age at which you have children needs to be changed. Older parents would have more life experience and make more mature decisions.

My grandson is a computer software design student and I keep tell him that what schools need is a computer game where all the variables can be brought into play (age of mother/father, relationship between mother/father, economic level, the diaper brigade, lack of freedom with friends, etc.) that would show young students what it is like to "have a baby".

I know they have that doll they use to show students what a responsibility a baby is. But I have also seen what teens treat that doll like. One young boy was walking down the street carrying it by the leg. One girl let her mother keep it and told the teacher she hired a babysitter. Games they all like to play. Trying to beat the odds would be hard - especially if the game is based on reality.

However, my grandson is not interested in developing this type of software.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

53. I love what you said:

"I keep tell him that what schools need is a computer game where all the variables can be brought into play (age of mother/father, relationship between mother/father, economic level, the diaper brigade, lack of freedom with friends, etc.) that would show young students what it is like to "have a baby".

I couldn't agree with you more!!

[jwirr]

55. Thank you.

[gkhouston]

66. +1. n/t

[Sarah Ibarruri]

38. You are probably right.

I have no idea if they should be allowed to keep their babies or not, but they ought to be taught to think logically, rather than with half a brain.

Even if they were emotionally lonely and needy to begin with, how could getting themselves chained to an even needier creature, a helpless creature, an unbelievably expensive creature, do anything more than cause havoc in their already-f'd up lives? And how could they not realize that babies cost money, cry all the time, soil diapers non-stop, need, need, need and cannot supply them with caring, and that you can't leave them alone one second because they will die unattended?

They have to be off in la-la land to not be aware of these most simple realizations!

[blueamy66]

103. Okay....hear my story

My nieces lost their Dad when they were young. He was an asshole, but they loved him. Yeah, maybe they crave his love....but there is A WHOLE LOTTA LOVE GOING AROUND IN OUR HUGE FAMILY.

Both of my nieces are in their young 20s and both have 3 children. Both are Medical Assistants, hold jobs, have their own insurance and take care of their own households. They are NOT irresponsible or uneducated.

They did not "grow up in families where abnormal is normal". If my Mother read this, she would turn over in her grave.

Please don't generalize. My nieces are not "baby mamas".

[SoCalDem]

192. I never called *your* nieces "baby-mamas"..

I did not even know that *you* had nieces or that they each had 3 kids:)

They are the "micro" to the article's (and my comments') macro.

I am sorry for their circumstances.. That being said, they also have an extended family that is apparently willing to help 2 women with 6 children & no baby-fathers. They are lucky indeed..and no doubt quite tired.

The article (and my comments) speak to the larger problem of uneducated, mostly unemployable young women (and the irresponsible men who impregnate them repeatedly) who continue to have children they cannot support in a manner that children deserve to be supported. These young women often have few, if any resources or family assistance.

[blueamy66]

195. Don't be sorry for their circumstances.

They are both VERY happy and are doing well.

Yeah, they miss their Dad, but other than that, they are good.

I understand what you meant now....just a sore subject for me I guess.

[ThomThom]

187. like you said " the family many of them never had"

I have heard it said by young women on why they wanted a child "so they can have someone to love them"

[LeftyMom]

6. Enslavement?

Most of us manage to lead happy lives that include being parents, without having the sort of budget that provides for nannies and housekeepers.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

10. It's not for me, and the glorification of it certainly is causing out of wedlock kids to be born all

over the U.S.

[LeftyMom]

13. I'm glad you know it's not for you.

Teenage girls don't get pregnant because anybody's glorifying teenage motherhood. They get pregnant because they're immature and not very good at predicting long term consequences. It's the same reason teenage boys drive like morons and get in trouble with the law.

[REP]

17. There is tremendous societal pressure on women to have Mommyhood become their identities

Some girls may merely be buckling to that pressure early. No greater love and all, you know.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

45. I'm so grateful that I never gave a damn that other people wanted me to procreate

I'm soooo satisfied! And I feel quite sorry for so many women. I feel guilty sometimes watching some mothers. There they are, enduring a lot of crap, and meanwhile, I'm free to do as I please. :)

[joeglow3]

60. And I bet many of them feel quite sorry for you.

The great thing is we can choose our own lives. It becomes sad when people feel the need to judge others for their choices.

[Quantess]

74. Are you not aware that the decision to not have kids is generally looked down upon?

I would think you can take a small amount of crap from a childless person to round out the glorious rays of sunshine from your parental glory.

[joeglow3]

91. So, you are justfiying what you admit is judgemental behavior

Really, slow down and think about what you said for a minute.

[Quantess]

164. Well, I certainly hope Sarah DUer upthread does not say her thoughts out loud to parents.

That would be very rude!
People are judgmental all the time, every day. We're human that way. As long as she keeps it to herself, she's got a right to dislike children and to feel sorry for parents. It isn't like she pointed you out and said hey you joeglow3, you're a sucka for having kids, LOL.

And you're right, Some people do feel sorry for her being childless. The difference is that she probably hears it a lot! (not suggesting that you would do anything like that). But, society tells us our lives aren't complete unless we have children, and busybodies make sure to mention it.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

176. Nope! In fact, I thank them constantly because I KNOW how much they missed out on by having kids.

I am very good to my parents. I spend a LOT of time with them, give them gifts every opportunity, take them places with me, and have told them that I plan to take care of them always. They've told me I'm a very good daughter, and I try to be.

Usually when people ask me if I have kids and I say no, they want to know the 'real' reason. When I tell them the real reason, they don't like it. lol I don't know how else to explain it, though. I simply tell them the truth. I didn't want to miss out on my life by spending it raising children that would then move away and live their own lives without a thought to the past. I think maybe it's a bit like people who don't celebrate Thanksgiving here in the U.S. If you say to someone you will NOT celebrate Thanksgiving, people give you a look as if you had just landed from another planet, and they DEMAND to know why you're unwilling to celebrate it. (And by the way, I LOVE to celebrate Thanksgiving)!

[Quantess]

191. I have a few childless female friends.

We don't need to make up excuses or apologies to each other! One of them is infertile, but we will NEVER make her feel the slightest bit sorry for herself.

When the topic of parenthood comes up, I just shrug my shoulders and say nonchalantly, "...somehow it never happened..." and people leave me alone.

My parents gave their lives up for their children, and I am very thankful for that. I'm not a selfish person, but I don't know that I have enough to give to properly raise a child to adulthood, at least not at this time.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

200. Good for you, Quantess!

It's a pleasure talking to you.

[Quantess]

203. Same to you!

:hi:

[joeglow3]

190. I don't feel the need to list my reasons why I did not choose their lifestyle

Look at Sarah's post about how sorry she feels for me. The arrogant condescending tone is equal to that of some religious nut pushing their views on me and telling they feel sorry for me and wish I only knew better.

I could list the reasons I feel sorry for her. I could explain how I have lived the single life, the married life without kids and the married life with kids and can make an accurate comparions (as opposed to someone who has not, but feels the need to lecture me on how THEY are the expert). I could share the story of friends of my parents who are in their 60's, are only children, whose parents died, who have no kids. I could explain how it is hard for them to do so many of the things they enjoyed and they now talk about how lonely and miserable they are.

I chose not to do those things because I am secure with my decisions and don't feel the need to "feel sorry" for others to rationalize it.

[Quantess]

197. But if you're a great parent (Dad?) then why do you care whether some childless

person online is boasting about how much they love being childless?
I don't know...to me it's similar to Christians feeling insulted that agnostics think the bible is silly.

To the contrary, you actually DON'T seem secure to me. If you were so secure, her remarks would roll right off of you like rain rolls off a sheep. This is online commentary, remember? How about, you go hug your kids instead of worrying what some lady on the internet thinks about parenthood?

Great parents are always a treasure to society. The problem is that there are too many children born to lousy parents.

[TwilightGardener]

198. If I said I felt sorry for childless women on DU, I'm pretty sure I'd get a beat-down

of epic proportions. Because it's a put-down, an insult. It's condescending and rude. It belittles others' choices and lifestyles. It insinuates that they have made mistakes. I don't care if someone chooses to have kids or not. But as a mother, I don't like reading that someone "feels sorry" for me because of my choices. It's rude to do that to childless people, it's equally rude to do that to parents. This reminds me of the stay-at-home vs. working-mom debate, when each side "pities" the other in an attempt to justify their own particular life choices.

[Quantess]

210. But you are overlooking that society is smiling upon you for being a parent.

Childless people are the underdogs.

If you love your kids so much, then what do you care if somebody gloats about how much they love being childless? We childless people are going against the grain. How overly sensitive can one be, when they do what society tells them to do? Anyway, it's just internet commentary.

Also, people like to justify their own "choices" when it comes to reproduction, or maybe it wasn't really their own choice. Life's circumstances just made it that way.

[Tsiyu]

227. I can tell you I received plenty of criticism in life for my choices

Talk about going against the grain of having 1.5 kids. It was so bad from members of my family, I made my mom promise not to tell those certain critical family members when I was expecting my sixth child. I wanted a happy pregnancy without their ugly, rude comments.

Some people only see the world through their own narrow view. When you open your mind, you realize that you aren't the only one subject to society's criticism. Just look at the nasty, cheap shots at parents on this thread!!!!

It's very narcissistic to think because YOU feel societal pressure about one choice or another, that this entitles you to be rude to someone who made another choice. If you never made the choices they made, how can you insist here that they have it easy and therefor you are entitled to make rude comments about them? How would you know?

Treat others as you wish to be treated, not as the worst of these has treated you.

[Quantess]

240. Very well then, you think you're such a rebel?

I love rebels. However, I have made NO cheap shots, none that I know of.
My parents had a bunch of kids, and I was the youngest. My mom faced a lot of pressure because she had so many kids.

People try hard to justify their own choices, I do know that.

"Treat others as you wish to be treated, not as the worst of these has treated you" I assume you are referring to other people and not me..?

[Quantess]

241. Very well then, you think you're such a rebel?

I love rebels. However, I have made NO cheap shots, none that I know of.
My parents had a bunch of kids, and I was the youngest. My mom faced a lot of pressure because she had so many kids.

People try hard to justify their own choices, I do know that.

"Treat others as you wish to be treated, not as the worst of these has treated you" I assume you are referring to other people and not me..?

[joeglow3]

208. I wanted to reply. Twilight summed it up perfectly

I really don't care, as it relates to me. I DO care in the sense that I love this site and when I see people being condescending, arrogant and flat out rude, I will call them on it as it diminishes the integrity of the site and will only serve to raise tensions and/or drive people away.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

154. You're right. I think a lot of parents hate it when someone is happy to have no kids...

It reminds them of everything they can't do, can't enjoy, places they can't go, possibilities they can't take advantage of, etc. They then go on a rampage to prove to the person who opted to have no kids believe that somehow having kids is absolutely fabulous.

[Quantess]

168. Yes! But OTOH, I agree that it's kind of rude to talk about how free you are

in front of parents who are saddled with children. Especially in real life.
Online, it's no big deal, in my opinion.

I am often thankful that I escaped having children (so far). I genuinely like children, but when I think about the cost, the pain of childbirth, the changes that pregnancy causes, the wrinkles, sleepless nights, I am relieved that I have come this far in life without offspring.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

173. In real life I never tell parents with kids how much fun my life is. Even my sister...

who gets to do almost no things for her, and her life is a constant child activity. I do sometimes tell her I wish she could join me and my friends, but that's about as far as I go with it. I don't want her to feel worse than she must feel in that confined situation she's in.

However, it's crazy that people with no kids, who ADORE having no kids, who are living their life fully and to the max, have to hide and conceal their glee from those who are confined to kids. There are far too many things that people are forced to keep hidden and secret, and that's one of them, I guess. However, I always think about how lucky I was that I made my choice. It literally gives me chills to think I might have ended up like people with kids and missed out on my life.

[Quantess]

181. Women are SUPPOSED TO want to have babies.

Myself, I would like to raise a child someday, but I've always been terrified of the changes to the body. Some people smile at the sight of a pregnant woman, but for me, it's always brought on negative feelings. I feel dread and disgust when I think about pregnancy. Maybe it's because you lose a bit of ownership of your own body..?

As a small child, I thought babies were kind of yucky and NOT cute at all. They were about as cute as the baby rats I saw in photos, I thought. I disliked baby dolls.

Someday I would like to adopt a child or maybe be a step-parent. But I do feel like I have made the best decision by not having had children yet. I do value my sleep. And, I just can't afford kids!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

186. It's wonderful to be able to be in charge of our own bodies and make decisions like these

Until you mentioned it, I had forgotten the aspect of what pregnancy does to the woman's body. One of the things pregnancy does to the body is it tears the rectus abdominis muscle, or pulls on it until it's separated. It also robs calcium from the bones and teeth, even if one is taking pre-natal vitamins. It also often lands the body into a diabetic-like state (pre-eclampsia). Pregnancy stretches the skin, stretches the muscles, and these do not resume their previous shape. Pregnancy causes many other permanent changes to the body. At worst, pregnancy can endanger the woman's life.

I never really feared that so much, however.

What I feared the most was missing out on living my life, my present, my future, my possibilities, my experiences, travel, all that.

I don't know why it is an assumption on the part of so many that women automatically MUST feel an attraction to babies and a desperate need to have one. A great deal of that is learned, something women are trained to feel within society.

And SLEEP! OMG! Being able to sleep is just, well, amazing! :)

[uppityperson]

247. Again you don't understand that many people with kids "are living their life fully and to the max"

rather than "confined to kids".

"It literally gives me chills to think I might have ended up like people with kids and missed out on my life. "

If you feel having kids = "missed out on my life", you are one who should not have kids. But please, do not cast asparagus on those of us who "are living our life fully and to the max", telling us we are "confided with kids.

[SteveM]

221. Boy, you got that right...

Fastest way to remove yourself from a conversation is to say you are not married and have no children. You don't need to read Shakespeare's Sonnets to get a whiff of negativism.

[liberalhistorian]

126. Exactly, thank you. Why can't people

just live their own lives without being judged for it? I don't judge those who are child-free (and, as I've said, there are times when this parent certainly understands that choice!), it'd be nice if they'd do the same and quit assuming that I've had a miserable life just because I raised a child. Quite the opposite.

[liberalhistorian]

127. Tell you what. You don't judge me or "feel sorry" for me

or think that I "endure a lot of crap" for being a parent, and I won't judge you or feel sorry for you for being child-free. Deal?

[uppityperson]

248. +100000000000000000000 nt

[TwilightGardener]

170. Don't feel sorry for mothers. You may not understand them or their choices, but they

are not to be pitied any more than the childless crowd is to be pitied. I'm not getting the smugness or the condescension toward parenthood here.

[uppityperson]

288. I am sorry that you feel you can pass judgment on others for their choices.

[gkhouston]

21. +1. The youth minister at my church always recruits the teens

to help out during Vacation Bible School week. After a week with wall-to-wall kids, none of the teens are interested in parenthood until much later, if ever. :rofl:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

47. You know, maybe that would be a good thing to do: have teens care for the little ones

They would be less quick to spread their legs and grow that enslaving belly!

[Dorian Gray]

79. Gosh

I'm all for women who know they don't want kids choosing to not have them. I think it's obnoxious when people assume because you are a woman, you should have children. It's not for everyone, and for those women who know motherhood is not for them and choose not to do it, I think: "Wow! You're smart and strong, and you know yourself pretty well!"

Having said that, ".... grow that enslaving belly," is probably one of the most absurd and rude things I've heard said on DU. Every day I think that there is a new judgmental winner, but so far, that is pretty much up there for winning the title.

[liberalhistorian]

130. Well, that just goes along with her calling

parenthood a "life of enslavement and poverty" and thinking that no one can be good parents without nannies and housekeepers. She doesn't want to be judged for her choice, but has no problem judging those of us who ARE parents and who actually (gasp! shock! horror!) enjoy it.

[Tsiyu]

218. I particularly liked the "enslavement belly" comment

That wasn't ugly or judgmental at all, nosiree. DU has its rude narcissists as much as anywhere else, eh?

Thanks for checking in here. Your comments are much appreciated.

[liberalhistorian]

128. LOL. That's good, because they SHOULDN'T be parents

until much later.

[Spider Jerusalem]

19. Well no, biology is causing that

as much as anything. Humans are animals, after all, and women are sexually mature at 14 or 15. The big shift in the number of illegitimate births comes in part because marriage at 16 or 17 or 18 is no longer all that common when it was once normal. And it's useful to remember that we're largely talking about people from the bottom end of the socioeconomic scale who by and large have been denied the educational and social opportunities that the middle class have. So the result of deindustrialisation, outsourcing, and the loss of low-skilled manual labour jobs results in several generations of men who are more or less unemployable and can't find work, and in a rise in births out of wedlock etc because men can no longer fulfil the role of provider (a lot of these women would have upon a time left school at 16 or 17 and gotten married). I'd say it's better seen as the result of shifts in the American economy that have led to the destruction of the social fabric for quite a lot of people.

[csziggy]

25. There were only certain periods and places where early marriage was common

I've been doing genealogical research and was surprised that the marriage age in England and Europe was much older than once the families moved to the Americas. The factors that caused this were probably economic and one of the reasons that the descendants left Europe.

It was not unusual for the German age of marriage to be 30 or older for the men and 25 or older for the women in the Protestant families. In England among the Quaker families, the ages were slightly lower - 25 to 30 for men 20 to 25 for women. I have not found a single marriage record in the families I am following where either the groom or bride was in their teens among the English or German families.

Even in the same families with the same religions, once they emigrated to the Americas, the marriage age dropped significantly, though still women tended to be at least 17 or 18 at a minimum and the men in their early 20s. Still, there were not as many teen brides as many people might think, at least in the families I am following. Most were over 20 and their husbands were on average a few years older.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

37. I lived in Spain for several years, and moved back about 10 years ago...

In Spain, women tend to marry at older ages than here. Never figured out why, but Spanish women do find it odd that American women were/are so eager to jump into marriage so much earlier than they do.

Early marriage limits a woman's possibilities, but nothing like pregnancy does. Pregnancy in the very young effectively limits that girl/woman's possibilities. It puts a chain around the girl/woman's neck, and everything becomes much more difficult, requires more planning, requires more money, demands more attention, less sleep, more effort, and many things are simply not doable. She shortens her youth, and propels herself into a life she probably had romanticized, and suddenly finds that it's not quite what she had bargained for.

Kids are very real. They're not dolls that cry when you pick them up, then when you put them in the doll crib they fall asleep for the next 24 hours. They require a great chunk of a girl/woman's life.

[csziggy]

43. Yes, I've never understood why women/girls want children early - or at all

My parents married in their mid-twenties and Mom always told her four daughters to have a career before we worried about getting a husband and having children. This, in a town where more than one family only sent their daughters to college so they could marry "well". Of the four of us, only two had children - and they waited until they were in their late twenties before they had the first child.

I made the same choice you have - no kids. I never desired them and saw no reason to have children I did not want.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

52. Isn't it wonderful having no kids? I swear to you I feel GUILTY to feel so good about it. lol

People ask me about it all the time, and while talking about it I get a smug smile, because I realize that my life didn't have to be this wonderful. I could've been riddled with kids, and my life could've been pretty darn awful.

Your Mom is one wonderful woman!!!

[csziggy]

67. The only times I wanted kids was when I think of the slave labor

I could have gotten from them here on the farm! Otherwise I listened to my friends with children complain and agonize about their problem children (one friend had two very troubled boys) and felt so very lucky to NOT have to deal with that.

Mom is a very smart and extraordinary woman. She had a career as a RN and Navy Nurse before meeting my Dad at the end of WWII. I know there were times she may have wanted to leave him - he is a very difficult person to live with and to love. And I know that she had the choice of working if she did leave which many women of her generation really didn't. They are now 90 and 88 and will celebrate their 66th anniversary in February.

She always told us to never have to rely on a man to survive - that if we could make our own way, we would have more choices. They put us all through college and none of us married young. Dad always respects Mom and their example of being respectful to each other even when the relationship is difficult has been a wonderful example for all of us.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

83. LOL! And, in fact, that's what happened in olden days - having kids to help on the farm was

vital, and a woman that couldn't have kids was a detriment to her husband because he couldn't provide extra 'hands.'

That's awesome that you still your mom and dad to enjoy.

I totally agree with your mom. Everyone needs to learn how to make it on their own first, before starting a relationship. I think people that enter any relationship in a state of helplessness, without knowing first how to make it on their own, have every disadvantage.

[ellie]

96. I come from a family of nine

children. We are all in our 40s and 50s now and only one of us ever had kids, it was my oldest brother, and he only had one with his wife. My mom always held herself up as an example of what not to do! So we didn't. Only half of us are married and we married in our 30s. I don't miss having children and I am pretty happy with my decision. I was always worried that I would regret it, but here I am, approaching 50, and I don't regret it one bit.

[jwirr]

54. I found that in my genealogical research also. Wonder why they

changed so once they got to America? My family was mostly rural and that may have had something to do with it. Down there on the farm not much else to do but get married. I was one of those early marriages just before everything started changing. Also one of the early divorces!

[csziggy]

264. I suspect that in Europe they had to wait longer until they could have a home

Of their own or were able to support themselves. I've found several branches that the young men and women were working as servants and living in their employers' homes before the got married. At least one of those emigrated to Canada and then married there when he was in his mid-thirties.

In the Americas unless they were working as indentured servants, they had more and earlier access to land and likely could become self-supporting younger and so could support a family earlier.

My mother's family was all Southern - all of her ancestors moved to Central Alabama between 1816 and 1834. They were farmers and preachers mostly, but most of them still did not marry early. I'm not sure why since I know many Alabama families had a habit of teenage marriages.

[jwirr]

289. Access to land and homes is a good guess. My family all farmed

and moved west to acquire land then built homes and married. Living in extended families up until about the late 50s.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

36. When I went to school years ago, girls weren't tripping over themselves trying to get pregnant

Seems like now it's the new fashion for keeping a guy. Get pregnant, then the guy you like will be forever attached to your life. Nary a thought of how that baby enslaves the female (not the male) for life in a society that is increasingly more complex, more isolated and isolationist, and more difficult to maneuver.

It's, as someone here posted, the American 'Baby Mama' syndrome, and it's not limited to one American subculture or another, but it does seem to be less of a trend for girls to get themselves pregnant among the wealthy. I haven't yet figured out why the daughters of the wealthy are less likely to go get themselves pregnant. I'm sure there must be a reason. Maybe they don't feel they *need* to get pregnant to keep a man or something. I don't know.

In any case, it's definitely a trend here in the U.S.

[LeftyMom]

59. Teen pregnancy is down, actually.

When you went to school the pregnant girls probably "went to stay with their aunt" or "got mono" or something.

[SteveM]

224. What I read as well. The mother in the OP sounds more like a "horder"

and not very typical of even single parent behavior.

I believe there is also a study which suggests that some poor black teens see having kids as the only thing they have a competency for. In this case, exhortations to use birth control, and to think ahead about your own future, may have limited effect.

[Brickbat]

7. High school girls who want a child generally don't have a good family life and think the baby

will love them. Generally. So yes, they do need education about that.

Wanting to reproduce is a basic biological drive that people feel in different ways. It's also possible to raise happy, well-adjusted children without nannies, housekeepers, all kinds of help, or becoming enslaved and impoverished. I suspect you know all that, however.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

11. Or maybe they think if they have a baby with this guy or that, the guy will stay. Actually....

that makes guys run faster than light! I've seen it over and over again. Pretty damned sad.

[TheDebbieDee]

14. For the high school girls in some areas, having a guy's baby

is the only way they know maintain contact with a young man. It's stooooooopid, I know. But for some young women, many of their role models have never done anything with their lives other than be someone's daughter or someone's mother.

The idea of establishing a career of any type never occurs to them - a career is something that only a character on a TV show has. It's sad, really.........

[Sarah Ibarruri]

39. You're right, it is sad. They have 0 goals. As for the baby being a way to hold on to a guy...

that's the saddest thing of all, in my opinion. They destroy their lives based on an idea that just doesn't work. You can't force a guy to stay by spreading your legs and getting a 9 month swelling in the belly.

[beam me up scottie]

50. Of course the baby daddy will probably be a lousy father because he didn't want the kid.

I don't understand women who are shocked and outraged because unwilling fathers try to get out of paying child support and/or want nothing to do with the accident kid.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

51. Exactly right. He got what he wanted, and that sure wasn't a baby! nt

[Dorian Gray]

80. A lot of those "women"

are actually young girls who don't know better. Unfortunately, some are actually adult women. For them.... I wish that they knew better.

I also find it perplexing that females would think having a child would snag a man.

[beam me up scottie]

110. I don't understand how all of these "accidents" happen in this day and age.

It isn't luck that's kept me from getting pregnant all these years.

Every child should be wanted.

:hi:

[Sarah Ibarruri]

156. Exactly! There's a reason why there's birth control. nt

[Dorian Gray]

286. Totally agree with that

[raccoon]

111. Lots of females think that having sex with a man will snag a man. Both to me are perplexing. nt

[Odin2005]

26. Kids are cute and hilarious.

I don't have a kid yet, but I want one someday, in the meantime I love spoiling my young relatives.

Thinking kids "tie you down" is a really disgusting attitude.

[ingac70]

31. It isn't an attitude, it's a fact...

your life is no longer your own when you have kids.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

48. Absolutely. When you have kids, your dreams suddenly have to all take a back seat

It's the end of you as you knew yourself. Someone else just replaced you at center stage.

[Lyric]

63. Some people don't value being "center stage" quite as much

as you apparently do. I'm 100% grateful to have my son, and I'm perfectly happy putting his needs before my own. It actually makes me feel wonderful. :)

[Sarah Ibarruri]

85. Trust me, I'm not out there putting the spotlight on myself, but since there's only one life...

it's wonderful to be able to do what I want. I've watched my friends' lives take a turn south the moment kids were born. It's just the way things are. Nothing remains unaffected by kids. There is literally NOTHING in a marriage a child does not affect. From the type of sex, to the frequency of sex, to the humor between the couple, to the time the couple spend together, to the money the couple has to dispose of, to, well, everything!

I'm sure you love your child. I'm sure I'd love a child if I had decided to have one. No doubt in my mind at all. People that don't want children, don't lack love. They're just unwilling to go that route because there is only one life, and children dramatically change everything in a person's life. Suddenly, the focus of all of life becomes that other being. That's why even tho I know (and always knew) that if I'd had a child, I would've loved it, I STILL never wanted one, no way, nohow.

In 2009 there was a study done by U. of Denver which reflected the rapid change and detereoration of a relationship when a child enters the picture.
http://www.ziplandinteractive.com/new-research-transition-to-parenthood/ There are other studies reflecting how kids alter people and relationships dramatically.

Here's what's key in looking at kids: while some relationships will not survive even without children, the stressors placed upon all relationships, good or bad, with kids, are undeniable. And that's a couple. If it's just the woman raising the child by HERSELF, oh my god. There's just no way. Only by a series of unavoidable, accidental, unpredictable circumstances, would I accept the role of raising a child alone, and I would not be kicking my heels and yelling, "Whoopeee!"

I'll tell you what kids do NOT do. They do not leave a relationship or a person intact.

[Common Sense Party]

68. Bullshit. You're speaking nonsense from a position of ignorance...

And you have a very strange sense of false superiority over those who choose to be parents.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

86. That's your opinion. There are plenty of studies bearing out that children place tremendous

stressors upon people individually, and upon relationships. There's no way children do NOT place stressors upon people. It's just a fact of life. Reality. http://www.breakingnewsenglish.com/0904/090413-marriage.html

But even so, it's not your business whether I have kids or not, and I'm quite satisfied with not having had any. In fact, as I look around at people with kids, I am incredibly grateful that I made my choice. And who are YOU to say I shouldn't be?

Are you waiting for me to pay lip service to the fact that you decided to have kids?

[EOTE]

132. No one is saying that you shouldn't be happy or satisfied.

They're saying you shouldn't be a condescending prick to those who do have children. You complain about others judging you for your decision, but you've been judging others non-stop on this thread. That makes you a hypocrite of the higest order.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

141. Do you see me stopping women from spreading their legs without contraception?

No. However, I am entitled to have my views. Kids are outrageously expensive, people's lives and goals are forced to change once they have kids (unless their only aim and goal was to have kids), and to say I don't envy people with kids would be the understatement of the year.

People don't often understand my way of seeing this and always attempt to provide reasons why I should've had kids. For example, an often-used justification for having kids I hear from parents is, "You'll have no one to take care of you when you're old?" Well, the fact is, nearly always end up in homes for the elderly and eventually hospice. That applies whether one has 5 kids or none. Life is far too difficult, everyone is spread out, and kids do make their own lives and families and take off. This is not the world of the 1800s in which the elderly were cared for at home. So having kids to take care of one as elderly no longer is a valid reason to have kids.

[EOTE]

142. Not at all, that's a huge strawman.

I didn't accuse you of forcing anyone to be like you. I accused you of insulting and judging those who don't do as you. You're certainly entitled to your views, just as I'm entitled to my view that you're a massive hypocrite.

You're welcome to think anything you'd like, but when you rail against people and call them judgmental for their views on you not having children, that makes you a huge hypocrite for being so incredibly judgmental against them.

In this post that I'm responding to, you once again elaborate all your reasons for not wanting to have children. It's really a waste of time. I know fully well why you, or anyone else doesn't want to have children. It's incredibly easy to see, parenthood is certainly not for everyone.

What you might have wanted to spend a little time elucidating on, is why you are so very judgmental against people who do decide to have children, yet act so defensively regarding your own decision. NO ONE here is judging you for not having children. You've not afforded anyone who does the same courtesy. That makes you a hypocrite.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

146. As long as I'm not forcing women not to pop kids out, I have the right to my view, which is

that women need to realize that they, ultimately, are the responsible ones for kids, and that if they already have no money, and few options, having kids will seal that very nicely and allow them few if any options.

I do feel sorry for people with kids, but even more so for women who are poor, alone, helpless, have kids, and are adding to them.

[EOTE]

155. And everyone else has the right to say that you're selfish, full of yourself

and can't see beyond your own pleasure and enjoyment. Even though they've been far kinder than you've been to them and not responded as such.

And you certainly do lose the moral right to complain about the judgement of others when you throw out your own judgement so readily. Most hypocrites are very reluctant to acknowledge their own hypocrisy.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

160. Why? Because I feel sorry for people that have kids, and LOVE my life without them? lol

Boy, that really threatens you!

[EOTE]

169. You're clearly the one who's threatened.

You're the one insulting anyone who didn't make your life choices while screaming about others doing the same to you (even though no one has). I was simply pointing out your rank hypocrisy, I said nothing about any threats. Yet another strawman.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

171. Again, I feel sorry for people who have kids because they're missing out on all that I can do and

all I've been able to do. Why are you threatened by that? Why do you feel that I must feel people with kids are lucky, when that's clearly not how I see it?

[EOTE]

174. Are you incapable of even basic comprehension?

I never said anything about me being threatened. That you continually bring that up while I said nothing of the sort shows to me that you're projecting the threat that you feel onto me or you simply lack any appreciable comprehension. Once again, stop making up shit about others, that's not how to have a discussion. I never said that you must feel that people with kids are lucky. I said that if you are to be so incredibly defensive about non-existent threats here (once again, NO ONE here said anything negative about your choice not to have kids), you'd be an insane hypocrite for lashing out at others who don't share your view. So you can continue to be obtuse if you'd like. People who have even a smidgeon of comprehension skills see through your bullshit.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

178. I'm not defensive. The defensive one is you. Re-read your post. I merely said I feel sorry for

people who have kids, that they can't enjoy their own lives fully, the way I enjoy mine.

This will be my last post to you, as you clearly have anger issues about this, for reasons unknown to me, which you must work out wherever you desire.

And by the way, I happened to look over your past posts, and you seem to exhibit this same anger with a lot of people on DU. Carry on! Enjoy! lol

[EOTE]

179. Hilarious, more rank hypocrisy from you.

I'm the one who has anger issues and is defensive while you're the one who insists that no one insult you for your choices while you unrelentingly insult others who don't share yours. Let me put this really simple for you, I don't feel bad that you didn't choose to breed, I'd be terrified if you made that choice. You should not have a child. A child should be raised by parent(s) who are mature and not entirely self-centered. A child should be wanted and not made to feel that they ruined your life. Please, do whatever you can to ensure you never bear children as it would be disastrous if you did.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

182. To keep my DU very pleasant

I am hereby permanently blocking you so your posts don't appear on my screen.

[EOTE]

183. This is vital information.

Odd, I seem to recall that this discussion was over. I guess someone is a bit more defensive than she'd like to admit.

[Tsiyu]

211. LOL

Great responses, EOTE.

There's a word I've been hearing in my head reading a few of the posts here: narcissism.

"Yes, dear, the world really DOES revolve around ME, ME, ME!!!!"

[EOTE]

213. Thanks. I think that for some, live and let live is far too much to ask.

The "live" part they've got down pat. It's the "let live" part they can't seem to grasp.

[Tsiyu]

217. I heartily agree

The condescension and putdowns of parenthood are not what I would call the "let live" category. They are WAY over the top. If the same words were used against the childless here, imagine the outcry.

Thanks for your posts here.

[EOTE]

180. And you need to stalk me to comment on me?

That's rather creepy. I can find everything I need to point out your rank hypocrisy right on this thread. I have no need or desire to see your idiocy on display in other threads, you've provided more than enough fodder here.

[uppityperson]

250. You are posting very negatively about people who chose to have children.

You are sorry that they "can't enjoy their own lives fully, the way I enjoy mine" when many of us do. You tell us to not cast judgement on you for being childless, yet write all sorts of negative assumptions and judgments on us.

"you clearly have anger issues" is not a very good defense towards someone who objects to your negative judgments.

[EOTE]

284. Some people will go through incredible lengths to justify their hypocrisy.

Including preemptively lashing out at enemies who don't exist and demanding that no one else do the same.

[CreekDog]

254. They seem to be incapable of empathy

and one's parental status shouldn't get in the way of that.

[EOTE]

175. Why do you need to lash out at others because you can't have children?

Just because your life is empty and solely resolves around yourself, why do you need to insult others whose lives aren't so empty?

Ahh, now you might have a small iota of what it's like having a conversation with yourself. Strawmen are pretty stupid and unproductive, aren't they?

[Dorian Gray]

287. Nobody's done that

in this thread.

I'm glad you never had children. It's a good thing for you.

Your condescending arrogance toward those who made a different choice than you is very perplexing from someone who insists that everyone treats you the way you are treating parents in this thread.

[Common Sense Party]

163. I could care less about your choice.

I'm speaking to your false sense of superiority, your condescension and your judgmental (and hypocritical) attitude.

You're speaking from a position of ignorance. You think you know everything about having kids. You don't.

I'm happy you're happy with your choice.

Apparently, you can't stand to see that parents can be very happy with THEIR choice.

Empathy. Try it some time.

[girl_interrupted]

69. Your dreams have to take a backseat?

LOL! There are so many women, doctors, lawyers, teachers, nurses, you name it, who manage to have careers and families and continue to do what they love. Your personal & professional life continues. Personally my child adds to my dreams, the things I can share with him, and my husband, the experiences we can all enjoy together.

It's strange, you have no children, yet you seem to be an expert on "what it's like".

Babies don't stay babies forever, they grow up and become their own people, have their own identities. My son is very young now, but I have watched him go through all different stages of growth, from this little infant I held in my arms, to this toddler running around, with his own personal likes and dislikes. Seeing life through a child's eyes, makes me stop and appreciate a lot of things I use to take for granted. He looks at life with such wonderment...he's just so cool!

Having a child is a personal choice, no one should make you feel like you have to. But by the same token, for those who do, I don't understand why you feel the need to belittle them. You made your choice, they make theirs..one size doesn't fit all.

As for teenagers having babies, bad idea. Just my opinion, but I think they have a need to be loved and give love, because they are missing it within their own families. It's very sad.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

87. It's tempting to say that kids affect nothing, that people remain just exactly as they are. Wrong.

Kids affect it all, whether one is a single individual, or a married individual.

http://www.tannerhelland.com/917/children-ruin-marriages-for-most/

http://www.breakingnewsenglish.com/0904/090413-marriage.html

[Common Sense Party]

204. Who, in this thread, ever said "kids affect nothing"??

Kids affect you, sure. So do marriages (good and bad). So do jobs (good and bad).

Here's a news flash for you: LIFE changes you. People change. they grow, they learn, they suffer, they thrive, they adapt, they progress.

Some people choose to have kids, because they WANT that as part of their growing and adapting process. Not everyone chooses that, but they still find that life affects them.

If you are so set on making sure nothing ever changes, that nothing ever affects you, that you don't wish to grow, then all I can say is I feel sorry for you.

[Dorian Gray]

82. No it's not...

not at all. I have a 1 year old. 98% of what I do is for her.

But, I don't think it's enslavement, either. I enjoy doing things for my child. Her needs have become more important to me than my own, and I enjoy my time with her. It's not for everyone, but I'd like to think most mothers and fathers choose parenthood because they want a child and find the experience enriching to their lives.

[LanternWaste]

222. Commitments to other people do not deny you your own life...

Commitments to other people does not deny a person their own life, it merely adds an additional layer of responsibility.

However, I do understand the self-serving sentiment that responsibilities may preclude one from doing everything they want to-- but in fact and in deed, who actually does everything they want to? No one? Correct. yet by your own measure, that means no one's life is any longer their own.


(What you see as a fact is merely an interpretation :shrug: )

DAPOS....

[MH1]

115. The really disgusting attitude is calling someone else's truth 'disgusting'

when that truth does nothing at all to harm you.

The truth is that kids DO tie a woman (and especially a teenage girl) down, UNLESS she has the resources to manage them better. A teenager without resources having a kid? Hell yes she is going to be tied down. Her life will be constrained by the responsibility which she has taken on.

It's not an attack on children, child-rearing, or people who choose to have kids, to point out this FACT. At most it can be taken as an attack on the stupidity of taking on parenthood without forethought of the consequences. I'll join the poster in THAT attack. But I'll put more effort into making family planning resources and education more available, despite the constant undermining by the forces of evil (also known as religious conservatives).

[Sarah Ibarruri]

157. I agree with everything you said. The right wing religious spend mega-millions promoting

pregnancy. With these sort of problems in society, that's the last thing this society needs.

[Codeine]

138. It's true. Kids do tie you down.

I have two stepkids and they've severely limited my free time and impacted my ability to do what I want when I want to do it. Camping trips have to be planned around school holidays. Going out to dinner is a chore. I can't just decide to pop a few leftovers in the microwave for lunch anymore. A quick trip to the market involves twice the effort it once did.

I don't regret bringing them into my life, but to deny that I've been tied down to a very real degree would be dishonest.

[dkf]

32. Ah you've never felt "it".

I didn't either til my sister had her youngest and I basically took care of the little guy while she recovered from her c-section. My mom babysits him now and I ENVY her. But I have to admit if he is screaming and insistent on having Mommy I am not too devastated. :)

[Sarah Ibarruri]

41. Oh, I never said I disliked kids. I love kids. I have oodles of nephews and nieces...

I do love them. I give them gifts, play with them, take them to the movies, love the fact that my sister has them.

I also love to drop them off and know that I don't have to have them all my life. :) Being able to drop them off reaffirms for me how wonderful it is that others have the kids and not me lol

[jwirr]

62. Believe it or not that is how it feels to be a grandma - you get the

best and then they can go home to their parents.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

88. It's great!!! And yes, I've heard that. And not having that responsibility for the kids

certainly takes the stress out of it. Makes it pretty wonderful!

[blueamy66]

104. Me too.

Love my nieces/nephew/great nieces and great nephews....have a toy box here at my house....but I also enjoy it when they go home!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

107. I'm like you. And you know what? While my nieces and nephews love their mom and dad...

for them, being with me is a treat since they aren't with me all the time. It also takes the edge off the kids, like a pressure cooker releasing steam, when I spend time with them. It makes life easier for their mom and dad.

I do enjoy spending some time with my nieces and nephews, teaching them things, and having fun with them. They are a handful. All kids are. Driving away from them can be rather blissful.

[blueamy66]

194. Exactly.

My youngest niece has 3 boys under the age of 4. Talk about a hot mess! But they are beauties and alot of fun!

Now, dinners at restaurants are NOT FUN!

Driving away is blissful!

[Skittles]

33. society dictates that everybody multiply

a significant percentage of the parents I know should not had had children

[Sarah Ibarruri]

40. So true. I think there are more mediocre parents than good parents.

And then there are those women for whom having a child is some sort of badge of honor. !!! Those horrify me terribly!

[pitohui]

58. there's more mediocre than good everything

that's just way it works

you can't expect the majority to be better than mediocre, it's sort of the meaning of the word

considering we are already 7 billion people on this planet, it would be nice if only the top end of people would reproduce, unfortunately, reality suggests that the people would can do math are the very ones who don't...we are breeding math talent (in so far as it's heritable, which i can only pray is not vary) right out of the population

having a child badly punishes you financially and smart people who can think ahead are not the ones having children

[Sarah Ibarruri]

94. I agree! with absolutely everything you've said. I was fortunate. As a child I noticed parents...

and whether it was my own, or the parents of my friends, or family members, they were all exhausted, and their time was never their own.

My own sister and brother-in-law stopped having a normal life when their kids were born. I give them a break now and then by offering to take their kids out. When I return them, I am elated LOL!!!

[Quantess]

172. That is the unavoidable reality.

Intelligent people tend to show some restraint about producing offspring. Or at least, once they have as many children as they can take care of, they find a way to stop reproducing. Responsible people control their fertility so that they don't end up with more children than they can care for.

But then what's the solution? Nobody likes forced sterilization. The stupid Pope does his best to prevent condom distribution, that f****ing waste of skin. RWers don't want teens getting access to birth control, nor sex education. Health Insurance companies sometimes don't cover BC. Outdated cultural beliefs tell women they are nothing if they don't have several sons. Etc...

We live in a schizophrenic world when it comes to reproduction.

[seamac]

61. Chilluns satisfy some peoples needs

Most of the people I know who went down the having babies route did it for personal or selfish reasons. No, they couldn't afford them, but the being needed part was better than facing a life of rejected choice. Most of the kids turned out OK, parents mostly split up, but gave what they could with the help of other family. Tough to say, but if our adoption system worked better, may be there would be alot more kids cared for better. We tried when infertility got complicated. Social services wasn't much help. Foreign kids were bought on markets, US kids didn't qualify for racial and religious reasons. Another broken system in the help citizens help each other disaster. Maybe it's better now. There are alot of kids who could use some guidance, and alot of parents that would help, if the system wasn't so restrictive. What's the answer?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

159. I agree! Some want to see if the kids look like them, some want to show off the kids, some want

them the way others want a huge flat-screen TV, as property. There are myriad horrible reasons why people opt for kids.

And now, as if there weren't enough kids out there begging to be adopted, people are putting themselves in HUGE DEBT on fertility treatments. I know one couple that makes very little money, but is about $50,000 in the hole becuase of fertility treatments. They ended up with twins (which is seen constantly now due to fertility treatments), and they're looking into bankruptcy. They've become part of the Ramen noodles bunch willingly, out of some selfish need to have their very own kid.

[MayHamm]

92. Beats me

I have three of them the youngest 32 and it's been years since I knew exactly why I decided to have them. Yeah, they were planned and not accidents. Now one of them has two children and another has four. The youngest wants one someday. I wonder if any of them know why. I'll never ask.

[liberalhistorian]

123. That's fine that you choose to be child-free,

that's your right (and believe me, there are times when this parent understands that, lol!), but your attitude toward those of us who ARE parents is just as bad as the shit you get for choosing to be child-free. That's not cool, either.

[hifiguy]

225. I don't either, Sarah.

When I was in my early 20s I realized I never wanted to be a parent. Going through with it was easy, as I've never had a date much less a relationship (I was DX'd Asperger's in my late 40s, which explained my utter inability to deal with complex social interactions). I know friends who think their kids are the greatest things that ever happened to them and wish them well. But it ain't for me and never was.

I do love my cat, though, and he's my furbaby. :loveya:

[dana_b]

228. well, as a mom

who wanted her kid, I do NOT think of it as enslavement. As a matter of fact, I find that insulting. I do agree that education about parenting is lacking and should be emphasized more. It is no picnic nor is it romantic however for people that ARE ready for it, it is rewarding.

Oh - and I never needed a nanny or housekeeper (a babysitter during work hours - yes), etc. and we got along alright.

[uppityperson]

246. You obviously don't GET IT as your post is full of really odd bits.

"My time is mine, I do with it what I desire, and I love it."
Some of us desire to spend that time with our children. You desire to spend your time doing something else. We both have desires, just for different things.

"they won't be able to have fun"
Um, sorry but you need correction here. Those of us who have children have had fun. We are plenty "able to have fun" and the assumption that we "won't be able to have fun" is just plain wrong.

"the glorification of pregnancy and childrearing has got to stop."
I agree.

"It has to be presented in the realistic light of what it truly is: a form of enslavement and impoverishment. "
Simply having children does not mean enslavement and impoverishment.

"if one has a lot of money and can afford to hire nannies, housekeepers, and all kinds of help, fine."
Are you seriously saying that the only people who should have children are those who can afford to hire others to take care of them, to raise them?

So may assumptions there. So wrong in so many ways. You truly do not GET IT.

[OhioBlue]

267. wow...

you "don't get it" and that is fine... but for many of us being a parent is the best thing ever. I enjoyed changing those diapers and rocking my baby. I enjoy seeing the world through my 4 year old's eyes. I love, love, love the hugs and the silly comments. I babysat from the time I was 12 for other family members, cared over my siblings since I was 5. Before I had my own child - I often borrowed my siblings or cousin's children for trick or treat, fireworks, christmas lights, birthday parties, etc. I love all the kid stuff, fun stuff, etc. Of all my roles in life... mom is the best. That is the one that I could never give up. i would NEVER want a nanny - maybe a housekeeper tho... :)

[Skidmore]

279. So your choice allows you the freedom to

dump on people who do the bear the financial burden and work of raising the next generation. Yes, I've read what you have to say further down the thread. I'm a mother and a grandmother. While I do agree with you about children having children, I would never trade my choices regarding reproduction for anything. Throughout history, childbearing has not always been a "choice" for women and most families do the work of raising children without nannies and housekeepers. Very few can afford to do otherwise. Does that make their experience of family life any less richer? Among those so privileged with wealth who can afford such luxuries, there is still dysfunction and we read examples of it all the time.

You may not "get" it because for you children appear to be a hobby that one chooses. My life includes my children and their little people too and we have never had much. They add to our lives and enrich it beyond measure. Enslavement? No. Either you are for reproductive choice or not. You've made your choice and I've made mine. Respect the choices of all women, as you would demand such for yourself. You don't have to "get" it.

[w8liftinglady]

8. My partner offered to teach 5th grade boys std and pregnancy prevention

....unfortunately,we are an "abstinence-only" state.
We also lead in teen pregnancies.

I just talked with my sons...they have not had any contraceptive/std prevention education in school.(They HAVE had it from me)...My 9th grader said he might have it in health class next semester....a little late to start.

[gkhouston]

22. Christ on a trailer hitch, that's stupid.

I went to high school with two girls who became pregnant at 12 and a boy who became a father at 14 because they were totally ignorant about sex. Luckily, all three of them had parents willing to help them raise their kids.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

49. I can't stand that. It's as if they were trying to make kids stupid nt

[Zywiec]

12. Can anyone be proud of this country? :(

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. Sam Brownback, is that you?

[Tsiyu]

106. LOL

Nice :thumbsup:

[ingac70]

23. The only person accountable in that situation....

is the mother. WTF is she thinking?

[Odin2005]

28. It baffles me that so many teens get pregnant.

How hard is it to use a damn condom? Even in a place with shitty sex-ed I don't see how people could be so ignorant to not know what a condom is.

[pitohui]

56. a lot of teens can't do math

everybody knows about condoms, ever hear of HIV/AIDS (stupid question, i already know you're an intelligent poster)

people are taking off the condoms for nonsense reasons such as they think if they get preggers the guy will marry her and if he doesn't they'll get a gov't check and they are not math literate enough to understand that the gov't payment is NOT even close enough to what you need to have a decent living

they ruin their lives to make money, not realizing that they can't make a profit, in fact, they get further in the hole every month, because the assistance isn't close to enough to what you need to raise and educate a child and yourself have a decent life

as for the males, i have no idea why a male would ever take off a condom and get stuck for life with some random's baby but apparently it's an ego thing, a guy will have to explain that one to you, i sure can't...why would you take a chance of some random you fucked getting pregnant and then if you ever earn any money a big chunk of it is seized right away for some brat you didn't even want? and this goes on for two decades?

so that's my final answer...there is a large percentage of girls who can't do math and a large percentage of guys who let the little head do the thinking for the big head

needless to say, i am a BIG advocate of math literacy for girls and women

[jwirr]

64. But Odin if I use a condom that means I an willing to do this and that

I planned it! Bad me! :sarcasm:

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

75. Because they don't really care either way

I see this in my girlfriends extended family. By the time they get pregnant they have usually already dropped out of school, none of them have jobs or lives or any real exposure to the outside world and getting knocked up just doesn't really represent that much of an inconvenience since it isn't like it will disrupt their career or education. Let alone expose them to a massive social stigma in their community of unemployable substance abusing rednecks.

It is just a fixture of the ghetto and trailer park value system that is undermining society.

My girlfriend tried and failed to get custody of one of her cousins after both parents were thrown in jail at 13. Today the girl in question is 19, didn't complete the 8th grade and has two children with two different men who are both incarcerated and has lost most of her teeth. She claims she lacks the maternal instincts to care for a hamster but at the very least if she had the kid she would still have her teeth. She doesn't give a fuck about most of her relatives out there but this cousin was sweet and intelligent and in a healthy environment would have flourished.

[eridani]

78. Ghetto and trailer park = having absolutely nothing good in your life to look forward to

Having kids might compensate for that somewhat.

[girl_interrupted]

70. This is one kid everyone should be proud of

"Two Lesbians Raised A Baby And This Is What They Got" per MoveOn.org

Zach Wahls Speaks About Family http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMLZO-sObzQ&feature=player_embedded

[Liquorice]

71. Like many things, it's generational. One single mom raises 3 kids, and those

kids each go out into the world and think it's normal to raise their children without a father (or abandon their children if they are a male), and so on. That's why the number of single mothers will continue to grow too. The "Baby Mama" thing is a tragic breakdown in the black community that will have long-lasting repercussions in our society.

[raccoon]

114. Lots of that happens in the white community too--look at Casey Anthony. nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

177. Exactly! It's a trend with young kids, this thing about having a baby by the guy they like

And it just never works. Having a baby to keep the baby's father around does not work.

[Liquorice]

269. I know it does, but the numbers are overwhelming in the black community. nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

118. This is not only a phenomenon of the black community! Turn on Jerry Springer, Dr. Phil, and any

of a number of morning shows. You'll see countless young white girls there who thought having a baby was just one dandy way to get and keep a guy, or that unprotected sex does not lead to getting pregnant.

Young kids today are quite a mess. I can't say I blame the parents, either. The media's message is quite often atrocious, and it's all the media: music, movies, TV, video games, etc.

[Liquorice]

270. Of course, and the percentages have gone up across the board, but it

is far more prevalent and accepted in the black community. 69% of black children in America are now born to a single mother. It is 24% of white children. That is a big difference. How you are raised is generally how you will raise your children. The most important influence on any child is not TV or video games; It's the parents.

[Quantess]

73. Birth control? What's that?

The comments section for the article is closed. Gee, I wonder why?

That woman is a disgrace to humanity for squeezing out so many kids without even trying to control her fertility. The fathers are also idiots. Especially the one who fathered 10 of them.

Just what the world needs...12 children from stupid genetic stock.

[catrose]

93. Ignorance plays a big part too

When I was helping with Katrina families, one woman kept buying douches. She thought that was birth control (but didn't pick up the condoms that were available in the shelter restrooms). Could explain why she had 10 kids, all of which were eventually taken away by CPS. She was mentally ill, couldn't hold a job, made formula from water from park water fountains when the water in her house was cut off.

Red Cross handed out debit cards and had people set up banking accounts...this woman had never had either and just spent until the card money ran out and the checks bounced too high. She was 45. I never could figure out how to help or teach her.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

120. Are some of these women learning disabled perhaps? Learning disabilities account for a lot of

the dysfunction in people's lives, particularly if there are no coaches or counselors to set the person straight.

[Quantess]

158. From my understanding, people with learning disabilities

are normally intelligent, but they have a hard time learning school subjects. I had a friend in college who had a learning disability.
Maybe you are thinking of mental retardation?

[Odin2005]

201. Sounds like she is mentally handicapped and doesn't have any support.

:(

[catrose]

265. Not really any support

She was living with a man who wasn't a lot more competent. When I finally convinced him to go to a doctor--he'd spent a lot of time wading through the New Orleans sludge to evacuate his neighborhood by boat and obviously had infections--he felt so good after taking one antibiotic pill that he started taking them every few hours, like aspirin. Of course he'd been told differently; the bottle said differently.

I located her birth family for her; she thought she'd lost them all. At first they were thrilled to be reunited...then they settled back into their lifelong pattern of Gloria as hot potato. No one could manage, help, or stand her for very long. We were trying to get her on SSI disability, which would have provided money anyway, but money went through her fingers like water. I don't know if that ever happened; she decided it was a plot to lock her up in a mental institution.

I begged other social service agencies for help, but there's no agency that takes care of adults that can't take care of themselves, not if they're sorta kinda functioning. And everyone was swamped from Katrina survivors.

I wanted to make things better so badly. Just. not. happening.

[Odin2005]

283. UGH! Here in Minnesota folks like her would get in-home staff to help them.

In fact our in-community system for the disabled and mentally ill is considered the best in the country.

[JVS]

76. She's as messed up as the Duggars. Her kids should be taken away.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

109. Oh, that female from 19 Kids and Counting?? Well...

since all she does is spend time on her back spreading her legs for either a penis or a speculum, then hands the babies over to her other kids to take care of, she's not a mother. She's just a HATCHER. Her other kids raise her kids for her. It's like some frikkin' bee that pops out eggs while the worker bees take care of them. Somebody needs to duct tape that Duggar woman's legs shut. I understand her reality show is continuing and she's still spreading her legs.

[RZM]

147. I'd bet the farm that the siblings do a lot of the work in this family as well

In fact, I'd bet two farms on it. The difference is that the Duggars aren't out on the street and (apparently) have the means to to provide their kids with food and shelter. Not that I'm a fan of them or the show. I personally disapprove of their decision to have so many children, but at least their kids don't want for the basics.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

149. No doubt. There's no way 1 adult can care for so many kids without help

It's like the Octomom. She had lots of help from free programs, and even so, it has been nightmarish caring for so many. The mothers in these situations cannot help but be overwhelmed.

[blueamy66]

199. great post

+100000

[Abin Sur]

121. They have been. Thankfully.

[slackmaster]

207. Other than the tax breaks and free public education they get, the Duggars are paying their own way

They're not messed up. Someone has to be at the far end of the fertility bell curve.

[Tsiyu]

81. Wow. What a thread

First, I think the instinct to procreate is built into the human. Sex is a sneaky bugger that way. Access to birth control and family planning would help limit those who are not in a position to follow that instinct but still wish to have satisfying sex lives. As we all know, these services are not universally available in this nation,(but Viagra sure is!!!1)

(But some of these threads hint at eugenics and that's kind of scary. What goes around comes back around, I guess. The concept of Eugenics was popular during the Robber Baron days, too.)

Second, many young women don't get married because they won't qualify for medical care if they do. No husband = labor and delivery and well-baby care is paid for. That's the way the system is set up. Take it up with your legislators.

Third, if young women don't have any other hope of feeling fulfilled, of becoming adults (by access to education, decent careers, etc.) a baby often becomes a way to fill the need to have meaning in their lives. May not make sense to an older person, but to a young woman with few options, it does. Work toward providing them with education and jobs and see what happens!

Fourth, while I respect those who choose not to bear children ( and have never, ever criticized any one for that decision) I think it's real sad when those same people look down on those who do have children. It's called a "personal choice" for a reason.
My grown kids are the light of my life; they have taken care of me already and I know they will care for me when I am older and wearier. My many cousins without kids all tell me they hope my kids will take care of them, too. Of course, they never lifted a finger to help me or my kids, so I kind of laugh to myself about that. And no, none of my six have given me grandkids yet. Too busy getting degrees and sorting out their own lives. I am proud of each of them and adore them.

I never asked anyone else to do the same as me, just as I never disparaged those who have disparaged me relentlessly for my choices. If you have to make someone else feel small to make your own choices feel correct, you might have some slight problems.

People have been procreating since there have been people. That's why each and every one of us is here.

Except Newt Gingrich. He was hatched by lizards. And he might approve of many of the posts on this thread demonizing women and their choices ......and their children.

[Vinca]

84. You make a good point that some women have children to fill other needs.

That doesn't translate into a great life for the offspring. It wouldn't be a bad thing to have an intervention and suggest a tubal ligation.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

112. Wait a minute. Would you, if you were in dire straits, had no one to help you and 0 cash, have

more kids?

[Vinca]

133. FYI, my mother had 2 children and then died when I was 8 and my brother was 3.

Thanks for bringing this decades-old tragedy front and center in my mind today.

[Tsiyu]

212. Huh?

YOU made the comment that a woman should be counseled to have a tubal ligation.

Your mother was a woman.

Had SHE had a tubal ligation, you wouldn't be here. That was my point

Don't show zero pity for women and then play the pity game.

Though I am sorry for your loss, we all have losses. We don't all use our losses in life to suggest forcing sterilization on others.

[Vinca]

251. You don't think women with so many children they can't feed them

shouldn't be told about tubal ligations? I didn't say force anyone to stop acting as if their uterus is a clown car, just give them that option. Some people are really so stupid they don't know there is a way to stop having babies. Edited to add that responses like yours are one of the reasons I don't spend much time at DU anymore.

[Tsiyu]

259. You responded to my statement

that a young woman might find a baby fulfilling. At least I thought that was what you were responding to....

And I indeed found it repulsive to suggest that a young woman undergo sterilization.

Now you say you were talking about the woman with 15 kids. That was not what you originally said.

So don't blame me. If you were talking about the woman in the OP in your original comment, why didn't you clarify? People cannot read minds here. No, reminding one of birth control options in her case is not bad form. Stating that a young woman be sterilized, to me, is.

And DU does require a thick skin. If you're a parent, this thread is a great example of why....

[Sarah Ibarruri]

136. Newt is an evil a-hole. I suspect he's a psychopath. There are 2 types of psychopaths:

Those that 'pass,' in other words, those that can manage to function in life. There are psychopaths that can't function in life, and we generally hear of these a lot. Wealthy psychopaths are able to 'pass' their money bestows upon them rights poor psychopaths don't have. I have a book at home titled, The Psychopath Next Door. It's precisely about that.

[cherish44]

89. I've seen it

Not just single parent families either. I knew of one family that had no permanent home, lots of kids with behavior problems and neither parents working (both were under 35 but on disability, obviously their disability didn't keep them from having sex though). They'd pop out a new baby every year. Last I heard there were 10 kids in this family and they were living in a hotel room.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

135. Betcha the parents have some serious learning disabilities and emotional problems

I think what passes for 'immaturity' sometimes is a lot of serious emotional, mental, psychological problems, plus learning disabilities.

However, there are no laws that can keep people with tremendous emotional, mental, psychological problems, plus learning disabilities from having sex.

[Starry Messenger]

95. Gosh, the problem is worse than Wall Street ripping away the social safety net I betcha.

This OP and some of the replies are horrible. Back in the 19th century prissy Protestant social reformers thought my ancestors were animalistic breeders too. But hating the Irish eventually went out of fashion.

[Tsiyu]

97. I hear you, Starry Messenger

I mean, let's just throw down on those nasty poor women and their nasty uteri spitting out nasty poor children. That'll make us feel a lot better - to put those dirty females down. They are the cause of all our social ills! "Why, I know a guy who has a brother who has a cousin who knows a poor mother who..."

Meanwhile, the spawn of the 1% - who have everything they could ever need or want in the way of material goods and support and education - are the ones who fucked us all into poverty.

It's easy to kick the poor, and apparently just a boatload of fun - for people like Newt Gingrich.

DU is not immune from attracting those who enjoy this entertainment either, alas.

[Starry Messenger]

101. +1000

[Sarah Ibarruri]

108. It sure as hell isn't! But I look at having kids from a personal perspective. For me, it's bad.

That's why I made a choice not to have kids. And I'm one happy camper!!

As for Wall Street and their corrupt band of thieves, all I have to say is: I LOVE YOU, OCCUPY!!!!

[Starry Messenger]

113. The first line of the OP refers to "chronic social problem"

It attacks and singles out a group of minority women as culprits in their own oppression. Posts like the OP are not about individuals when they broad-brush attack whole groups of people. The only reason to post crap like this is to support Malthusian ideas of population control, when in reality, there are resources enough in the country to take care of any number of children.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

125. It applies. Women, more so than men, need to realize they will always be more

responsible for children than men. For a woman to ignore that fact, is not wise. That's the reason I opted to have no children. Women need to be taught this, and women need to be cognizant of that fact. To ignore that, or to place more importance upon getting pregnant to get, hold, and keep a man (which happens more often than not in some of these situations), shows a lack of self-love on the part of the woman herself and any offspring she might engender.

It's HARD AS HELL to bring up children. They cost an inordinate amount of money to raise. Someone else here said it correctly when he said children impoverish one. They do, unless one starts out ahead in life.

I agree with you in this, that Repukes already do plenty of attacking of the poor, and we should never lose sight that the Repigs never counterbalance those attacks by attacks upon the mega-rich thieves and gangsters that have impoverished this country and redistributed the wealth of this country to the top. However, as a female who early on realized that I was at a disadvantage the moment I had kids, I think females need to open their eyes and stop lending themselves to the stupidity of having kids to keep a man, get a man, hold a man, dream that the kids will magically make them happy, and ignore the monstrously difficult task that is even raising ONE child.

[Starry Messenger]

131. I come from a very poor and large Irish family.

I'm glad me and my family exist. That is as civil a response as I can muster. I chose not to have children because I could never afford them. I work to make a world where there might be better choices than blame. I'm out of here.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

137. Well, me too. I'm glad I exist, and I never fail to thank my parents for it, since it's so

incredibly expensive and difficult to raise kids. I adore my mom and dad and siblings.

[CreekDog]

256. Awesome as always!

:loveya:

[Starry Messenger]

260. *blush*

Thank you Creeky. This whole day I've been feeling like I've been taking crazy pills or something. My high horse had a hitch in its giddyap.

[CreekDog]

261. 80 degree weather in December messes with our minds

:hug:

[RZM]

117. People can have opinions on more than one matter

And this woman is an irresponsible person for having so many children without means. Not difficult to understand. Perhaps you could get a better perspective if you got off of your high horse?

[LooseWilly]

161. People can also disingenuously pretend that they aren't saying what they are really saying...

... as if "people" were still in middle school saying "I was just talking about her female dog, I wasn't saying she is a 'bitch'..."

To quote from the OP "This is an extreme example of a chronic social problem... nationally, over 70% of black children live with one parent."— when you take one person and claim them as an "example" of a "chronic social problem" ... then you are no longer talking about an individual— you are talking about a social phenomenon. Thus, when you suddenly try to "shift gears" and say "this woman is an irresponsible person", as if there were no greater implications being alluded to, Then You Are Being Disingenuous.

If it's just a question of "this woman is an irresponsible person", then we have no greater social phenomenon to talk about... and there is nothing to "get a better perspective" of... and there's no point to this whole OP— but, if that were the case, then why would one make reference to a "high horse"?

("I'm just talking about her female dog"??...)

It's similar to how one might insist that a name, such as RZM, is only coincidentally the same as:

The German WWII RZM numbers - The German armed forces during WWII were very particular about the consistency and quality of the badges, medals, uniforms, daggers and many other items they employed. As the size of the armed forces grew so did the need for the items listed above. The need to centralize the control of quality was pressing.

This need gave birth to the Reichszeugmeisterei organization, also known as RZM. This organization was based at the Brown house in Munich and Nazi party headquarters in Berlin.

The RZM ensured that the manufacturers of military items were consistent in design, quality of materials and other characteristics of the items. It also defined standards of design, manufacturing and quality and published an authoritative color chart for textiles.
{I won't bother to link... a google search will find it easily, but it's not necessarily a site I'd like anyone to investigate}

Obviously, this would just be something that an individual is irresponsibly doing, not a social phenomenon that needs to be pointed out for public scrutiny— well, not a phenomenon which anyone who posts links to Fox News will think needs to be pointed out for public scrutiny, anyway.

Right? ;)

[RZM]

167. A few things

1) I did not write the OP and I don't have to answer for its content
2) Your response is mostly babbling gibberish
3) I've been down this road before about my username. Ironically, the user you're defending here was the first to level the accusation (she authored one of the 'deleted messages' on the thread I link to). She then courageously refused to respond to me, and ignored a very polite PM I sent informing her in detail about where it came from and why I was so offended. The other person who leveled the accusation was soon tombstoned (though probably not for that. I imagine they had a long history of shit-stirring). I would appreciate an apology from you. We'll see if you're adult enough to do so.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4542217#4542696

[LooseWilly]

196. Why sir, I never said I was talking about *you*...

I said "one might" use a Nazi affiliated acronym "irresponsibly"... just as you said a homeless woman "might be" considered irresponsible for having 15 children. ("I was just talking about her female dog"...)

That is what you said, right?

People can have opinions on more than one matter

And this woman is an irresponsible person for having so many children without means. Not difficult to understand. Perhaps you could get a better perspective if you got off of your high horse?

Ohh, I do apologize... you didn't say that the woman "might be" irresponsible, you said "this woman is an irresponsible person", after saying "People can have opinions on more than one matter".

Well, in the spirit of your post, I apologize for saying that one "might be" irresponsible for using a Nazi affiliated acronym and attempting to "whitewash" any potential associations... I will now instead say that "one is irresponsible" to do so. After all, "People can have opinions on more than one matter" (I'll just pretend that that isn't babbling gibberish of yours that I'm quoting, but that it instead actually means something.)

As to your ad hominem regarding my adulthood, I will again quote you "Perhaps you could get a better perspective if you got off of your high horse?"

Good Day ;)

[RZM]

219. What a crock

This woman knew full well that having sex can result in pregnancy. I, on the other hand, did not know that my username is also the same as the abbreviation for German military quartermaster. If you'd taken the time to read the link I provided, you would see why. My situation was a coincidence, as I've never been an expert on neo-Nazis nor German military memorabilia. Had I known about the connection, I certainly wouldn't have chosen this username. But it's not a coincidence when you have sex and then end up pregnant. Your argument is a total failure.

But the problem is, I'm still aggrieved and insulted and still expect a genuine apology. Not some snarky cop out, but the real thing. You have insulted me greatly and your conduct is disgraceful.

[LooseWilly]

230. "This woman" is not the point of the OP, as I pointed out... but you continue to pretend otherwise

... speaking of "crocks".

"This woman" is not a "chronic social problem", she is one individual whose particular circumstances have not been fully explicated... and whom I will therefore refrain from judging. If I were to decide that I were in a position to make a judgement upon her based upon very limited facts then that would be a "crock"— and coincidentally, that is exactly what you have chosen to do... and further you have decided to patronizingly attack the maturity and judgement of those who aren't inclined to accept the judgement that you are meting out ("get off your high horse", "if you are adult enough", "your response is babbling gibberish", "what a crock", "your conduct is disgraceful"... to name a few I've seen in this sub-thread).

Your self-absorbed assumptions that your judgement of this particular woman are not to be questioned are every bit as disgraceful as anything she may or may not have been responsible or irresponsible enough to have done. The fact that you are so allusion and metaphor deaf that I have to explain this to you in such didactic terms should really be embarrassing for you, though this "deafness" goes a long way to explain why you should display the gall to be "aggrieved and insulted" when the historical allusions of your screen name are made public.

Why would I apologize for pointing out the connection? I don't hear you apologizing for the connection. I guess it's not an issue up on that high horse of yours?

Tell you what— if you'll apologize for having "accidentally" chosen an acronym that is synonymous with Nazi Killing apparatus Quality Assurance, I will apologize for having explained what that acronym was connected with. If you'll acknowledge that the woman in question may or may not have also had some similar "accidents" befall her (choosing a Nazi acronym for a screen name, having sex while drunk, being raped, all horrific "accidents" to be sure...) then I will re-acknowledge that I wasn't actually saying that you were being irresponsible for co-opting a Nazi acronym... and if you are willing to acknowledge that the entire "chronic social problem" theme of this thread is a new permutation of the same old racist Malthusian "they're bad"-ification of the "other"... then I'll acknowledge that Nazi acronyms are really just another thread of history, like slavery, and Malthusianism, which shouldn't be "swept under the carpet" no matter how distasteful.

From where I sit though, they're comparably poor choices and comparably unfortunate "accidents".

:)

[RZM]

233. I understand you're too invested now to back down

I don't have to apologize for not being aware of the reference when I chose the screen name. Maybe you shouldn't have to for making the connection in your first reply, because you didn't know any better. But now that I've explained where I'm coming from and given you a link to a thorough rebuttal, you owe an apology for attempting to connect me to the Nazis. Either give it or go hassle someone else.

[LooseWilly]

239. So now you're a mind reader? I'm not too invested to back down... I'm just not convinced.

Of course you don't have to apologize for choosing a screen name that is a Nazi acronym— it is a free country.

Likewise, homeless women don't have to apologize for having 15 children— it's a free country.

Those who would try to hold women accountable for their choices, accidental or intentional, should not be surprised, however, to face the prospect that others might be inclined to hold them accountable for their own choices, likewise accidental or intentional.

In case that parallel-drawing is too complicated for you— what I am doing is equating your "choice" to the "choice" made by the woman in the OP's article... and I am saying that you should be held as accountable as she should be. No more, no less.

I am also implying that, to the extent that you would have others judge your "not being aware"/"accidental choice" as being "forgivable" without likewise having the "not aware"/"accidental" actions of the woman in the article likewise "forgivable"— to the extent that you maintain that there should be a double standard you are a hypocrite.

I'll apologize for judging you when you apologize for judging the woman in the article.

As for "where you're coming from"... I am familiar with the thread you linked to, and after all the bragging you did about research at the Hoover Institute, at which institute there are entire rooms devoted to displaying Nazi memorabilia, I have to say I'm not buying the "accidental choice" line... well, any more than you seem to be willing to discount the "obvious knowledge" that having sex makes babies.

Again, why would I give you the benefit of the doubt when you show yourself disinclined to show the same courtesy to others? ("I'm just talking about her female dog, I'm not saying she's a bitch".)

I apologize for nothing. Not yet anyway... but maybe you're the one who's too invested to back down? (You'll notice I didn't presume to accuse you thusly, but rather asked you?... That's the tone one uses when one isn't trying to pretend to the rhetorical "high ground" by employing the tone that is normally reserved for authority figures in an interaction... or, in your case, maybe I should call it pretending to the rhetorical "high horse ground"? ;) )

"Either give it or go hassle someone else."?... Why sir, if I didn't know better, I'd think we were no longer friends :):dunce:

[RZM]

249. You just can't give up on this bullshit comparison, can you?

If you can't see the difference between my screen name and having 15 children without the means to support them, best of luck to you. I suspect you do see the difference but are trying to get a rise out of me at this point.

There are 26 letters in the English language. Start putting them together and sooner or later you get historical acronyms.

Let's take a user with the screen name 'ELF'. I'd probably think they were referencing fantasy fiction, their initials, Will Ferrell, or Santa's workshop. But someone attuned to the environmental movement might think this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_Liberation_Front
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_Life_Force
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_Nature_Fund

Obscure language nerds might make these connections:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvish_Linguistic_Fellowship
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endangered_Language_Fund

Fans of Oswald Mosley might see this (feel free to put that one in your quiver):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Liberation_Front

People familiar with Eritrean and Ethiopian history might think this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eritrean_Liberation_Front

So by your logic, the person choosing that screen name is expected to be as familiar with these as the woman in question here is with the basics of human reproduction? Because that's what you're arguing here. You saying I should be just as likely to know about the German military quartermaster as this woman is about a fundamental aspect of human life is quite a stretch.

The Hoover argument is even dumber. You know, I've been to several military museums in Russia dedicated exclusively to the Second World War - those were filled to the brim with German equipment. One would think I would be much more likely to pick up on the logo there than in the Hoover reading room. Yet for some reason I never did. No need to thank me for that point either, it's free. Now you have even more reason to not remain convinced.

You know, had you not decided to go all in on this silliness, we could have been talking about the OP and not my screen name this whole time.

[LooseWilly]

257. My, someone's defensive about being judged as he judges others...

If you want to continue pretending that your "mistake" is somehow forgivable but that the "mistakes" of others aren't... well, there's no law against hypocrisy.

If you'd like to try to illustrate the difference (other than by trying to claim that it's "self-evident"... which just means "because I say so"), by all means— proceed sir.

As it stands, all I see is you desperately trying to rationalize how your poor choice... in order to try to convince yourself that you aren't "as irresponsible" as a homeless woman. There a two problems I see with your rationalization, however.

First... while undoubtedly, given enough permutations, use of letters will produce acronyms... just like sitting 10,000 monkeys in front of 10.000 typewriters to type away for 10,000 years should, statistically & probabilistically, produce all the works of Shakespeare— the thing is I find it an odd statistical anomaly that you should happen to hire the Nazi Monkey to type your three letter screen name on its first try. 3 random letters—XBZ (googling we get:"http://www.xbzltd.com/" ... limited financial brokers— awful human beings I'm sure, but still not Nazis.

Add to the Nazi Monkey argument your admission that "I've been to several military museums in Russia dedicated exclusively to the Second World War - those were filled to the brim with German equipment. One would think I would be much more likely to pick up on the logo there than in the Hoover reading room. Yet for some reason I never did.", and the Nazi Monkey argument becomes less serendipitous, and more ... suspicious.

So— given your Suspicious Nazi Monkey defense, I have to ask: Why are we judging the homeless lady harder on her choices than we are judging the erudite researcher with the Nazi Monkey on his back?

I submit to you that the only justification for this difference in standards for judging choice-making, a difference in standards which you are crying out for- not I, is a mixture of hypocrisy and embracing of the very racist sentiments which are contained within the Breitbart story linked to in the OP.

Your "mistake" may seem less bad when gazed upon from the vantage point of your high horse... but I see bad choice-making as bad choice-making, whether you're hanging out at the Hoover Institute or sleeping on the streets.

And yes— I am saying that, as someone who has admitted to spending so much time in WWII museums, you are "expected to be as familiar with these as the woman in question here is with the basics of human reproduction"... don't cry about it if you can't handle the increased responsibilities that come with privilege. (Yes, being in a position to do research at the Hoover Institute does make you more privileged than a woman living on the streets, especially a "woman of color"... if you need that explained to you in more detail, just say so... a more detailed explanation can be arranged.)

On the other hand, maybe I am wrong after all... maybe you are claiming to be even more of an idiot yourself than you are implying that the woman in the article "must be" to have had so many children? If so, I'm afraid you did a sloppy job of conveying the point that you should actually be held to a lower standard than this poor woman because you are, in fact, clinically retarded or something (" Clinically, however, mental retardation is a subtype of intellectual disability, which is a broader concept and includes intellectual deficits that are too mild to properly qualify as mental retardation, too specific (as in specific learning disability), or acquired later in life, through acquired brain injuries or neurodegenerative diseases like dementia."— http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_retardation).

If this is the point of your assertion that, despite your apparent expertise on the subject of WWII you "had no idea", then please simply say so explicitly and I will promptly apologize for any innuendo, intended or otherwise, which might suggest that it was not merely a coincidence that you accepted the screen name provided to you by the hypothetical Nazi Monkey.

If nothing else, your suggestion that "we could have been talking about the OP and not my screen name this whole time" definitely is supportive of this argument... as I thought I'd quite explicitly stated that I think the OP is bullshit and not worth discussing in the slightest.

;)

(PS— maybe you should try to change your screen name to ELF, or ALF, or even MILF... so as not to have your accolades for Breitbart re-postings side-tracked like this...)

[REP]

236. Welcome to the 'Usernames that Confuse the Easily Confused" Club

REP - pronounced "aripee" - is my real-life initials and signature (and how I used to slug type). It's often confused for something almost hilarious as what your username is.

[Tsiyu]

242. I think it's more "Welcome to the Argument

That Shows How Easy it is to Assume Something About Another Human Being and Their Choices Without Knowing all the Facts" Club.

Or maybe some of us are too deep for our own damned good....But carry on.....

[RZM]

252. I think it's safe to assume this women knows that sex produces children

It's also safe to assume she knows that it costs money to provide them with food, clothing, and shelter. Maybe if she had 'quintdecituplets' you'd have a better argument. But these kids apparently came one at a time (maybe two or three at a time once or twice).

BTW, I can see him trying to teach a lesson with that point in the beginning of the exchange. But he's still persisting with the argument even as I'm breaking it down. So he's going on Santa's naughty list this year ;)

[RZM]

253. LOL. You must mean this:

http://www.rep.org/

That is funny.

Unfortunately, mine is less funny. I've thought about petitioning Skinner to change it, but I kind of feel like that guy named Michael Bolton in 'Office Space' at this point. They were the ones who sucked, after all ;)

[REP]

255. Yup. Among others. I've been REP longer though.

I'm on your side; she obviously knows where babies come from. Whether she's intellectually impaired, mentally ill with a hoarding disorder or even being held and raped repeatedly, she needs help (and her children even more so). Having children is a choice, but what choice do these unfortunate children have, that their mother cannot feed, clothe or house?

And some people are a little too into Nazi shit here for my taste. I thought those were YOUR initials, Richard Zachariah Mattson (name I randomly assigned when I saw your username).

[RZM]

263. Thanks for that :)

I'm double-fisting the respect knuckles in your direction!

:fistbump:

[Starry Messenger]

238. The Fox link is a repost from Breitbart. Who is a documented racist.

Sorry it makes me seem haughty to not wish to see racist right wing talk defended on DU. I'll work on that in the future.

[RZM]

272. The story originated with the local NBC affiliate in Tampa, Fla.

Who cares if Breitbart, Fox, or anybody else picked it up? Is any story they touch off limits simply because they link to it?

[Starry Messenger]

274. Progressives care.

People who oppose racism. That sort of person. :shrug:

[RZM]

275. I don't understand

If Andrew Breitbart picks up a story that has a racial angle, then progressives must not talk about it? Even if Breitbart did not produce the story himself?

Or is your problem less about Breitbart and more that DUers are openly discussing the racial angle? Judging by the response I got to my comment here, even avoiding the racial angle (as I did) can be oddly interpreted as not avoiding it. It seems that some people wish this story not be discussed at all. Personally, I don't think that's an appropriate culture for a political message board of any kind, progressive or not.

Just my opinion though.

[Starry Messenger]

276. You were the one who had a problem with my comment on the OP.

:shrug: Glenn Beck and Stormfront have also cross-linked to this story. Not the company I'd want to be in but others mileage may vary.

[RZM]

277. Talking about this story on DU puts you in DU's company, not theirs

So others are talking about it too. So what? Why would you want to let what others do inform the type of information you expose yourself to or engage with? Especially those whom you dislike. I don't even know what Stormfront or Breitbart talk about on a daily basis because I don't care to know. They are irrelevant to me and most certainly they do not have any role in what I choose to talk about.

[Starry Messenger]

278. This sort of thing seems confusing to you.

Maybe you can get someone who gives a shit what you think explain it to you. :hug:

[RZM]

281. I don't think that's in the spirit of the chart you posted yesterday n/t

[Abin Sur]

119. How about holding the mother in question accountable?

"Somebody needs to be held accountable, and they need to pay."

Heaven forbid that she be held accountable for her kids, and she pay for her brood.

Our tax dollars at work. What a pathetic excuse for a human being.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

129. Two things here...

1) If she has learning disabilities (which, I'd gladly bet $1,000 the woman DOES if you test her), she cannot be held fully accountable for being ignorant and unable to make rational decisions;

2) Far more taxes have been stolen by the rich and corporations, than the tax money women (and men) like this one have taken in raising their brood. Time to go after the rich and corporations first, then later, take a look at the people who make incredibly bad decisions and have them get some serious, serious counseling to see what they're thinking (or not thinking).

[Throd]

148. Learning disabilities or run-of-the-mill-dumbfuck?

My money is on the latter.

Your second point, while important in the big picture, is irrelevant to this lady's decision making.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

150. Learning disabilities. What you might call, 'dumbfuck' is often learning disabilities

I'm not trying to gloss over this situation. I'm merely saying that this woman cannot possibly be thinking rationally.

[Skittles]

140. they don't even hold people who start illegal wars accountable

but they better go after welfare mothers!!!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

145. Definitely not. If they're going to do that, first they have to hang Repukes by their feet

My view in this is that women have to take care of themselves and not get themselves in a horrible situation that they can't get out of by having kids. Kids paralyze one, and if there's already no money, it becomes an intolerable situation of helplessness, and without exits.

[JVS]

185. Having watched it now, I can see her point a bit better.

At first I had just heard 15 kids and thought "yeah, no wonder you're not able to hack it". Upon seeing the video, it seems that her fiance and father 10 of these children had been supporting the family but was arrested. This impoverished the family. I still think this would not be so much of a problem if she had not had so very many kids.

[CreekDog]

258. That's a big cause of poverty

when marriages and partnerships break up, the women are most often the ones who care for the children, actually and financially. many end up in poverty because fathers leave and take their money with them and our safety net, HA! we don't have a safety net that actually prevents the effects of poverty like wealthy nations who don't consider their populace a burden have.

[w8liftinglady]

144. I also need to add...only married women under 18 qualify (in Texas)

for contraceptives...no Federal Funds may be applied.
http://www.contracept.org/minorsaccess.php

[Aerows]

184. Abstinence

If it worked, the human race wouldn't be here. Religions of all flavors have pushed abstinence and marriage for millennia. Has it worked yet, and have women and men quit having sex except for procreation?

No, it hasn't worked. Abstinence benefits people that want to look down on other people for having sex and/or procreating, while doing nothing to prevent them from procreating. It benefits no one that could actually get pregnant and is healthy.

Why do you think they hate gay and lesbian people, too? It isn't because we are taking our pleasure, it's because we aren't producing cheap labor to exploit, since they all know abstinence doesn't work. It just creates an easily exploitable underclass, much like vilifying gay people, brown people, "other" people does. That's the goal.

[Youth Uprising]

205. I saw this trending on YouTube

from an user whose sole purpose seems to be to upload videos that paint African-American women in a bad light. As you can probably guess, there where plenty of racial epithets hurled in the comments section and plenty of comments demanding that she be forcibly sterilized by so called small government Conservatives.

[Tsiyu]

215. We have some "forced sterilization" types here, too

Who knew?

Disgusting, and I'll just say, this thread ain't one of DU's shining moments....

It's like a FOXnews zombies' thread, trying to trash the least of these to feel better about themselves, rather than realizing single mothers are not to blame for our nation's economic woes.

They're channelling the Newt. PROUDLY, I might add!

[Starry Messenger]

231. Not surprised at all.

This thread is tragic too.

[slackmaster]

206. Having that many kids MIGHT have something to do with choices the woman has made

She bears some of the responsibility for her situation.

[LanternWaste]

223. I imagine the consequences are predicated upon many factors

I imagine the consequences in this case are predicated upon many factors, many things and many circumstances-- as they are in every case...

[SteveM]

229. Of course, we have that urban legend from Groucho Marx...

"Allegedly" occurring on his T.V. program "You Bet Your Life:"

Groucho: Why do you have so many children? That’s a big responsibility and a big burden.

Mrs. Story: Well, because I love my children, and I think that’s our purpose here on Earth, and I love my husband.

Groucho: I love my cigar, but I take it out of my mouth once in a while.

[bermudat]

245. a foxnews link, really?

so easily manipulated

[VenusRising]

262. Not to mention the link under the Fox video.

"Read the full story at breitbart.tv"

:puke:

[defendandprotect]

268. No one should be homeless -- and I'm sure Obama will be saying that any minute now .... !!!

[treestar]

280. That case is unusual

But tailor-made for the right wing anti-social program obsession, which is why they latched onto it.

[JNelson6563]

282. We all need each other!

While, in reference to the OP, people shouldn't be having 15 babies when they can't take care of them. I believe education and birth control should be made available to all for free or next to nothing.

With that said....

Reading this thread, oh my! What's with all the hate? Some people have kids, some don't. Who cares? I can't imagine having gotten through motherhood without the help of friends, including and especially some of those friends who had no kids of their own! I became convinced that some of those dear souls didn't have kids because they often play the role of parent to many more than most people have in their family.

I know from experience that non-parents are just as loving and selfless human beings as parents and we parents who are sometimes overwhelmed (as well as our kids) are usually the lucky recipients of all the great qualities many non-parents have.

It really does take a village. We all need each other, none are better than others. Parents vs. non-parents is just another divider. We're all in this together, we really should start to act like it.

Julie