So last night LAPD showed up with L-3 Hazmat suits

[nadinbrzezinski]

the lowest level of Hazmat suits, since they were to clear a camp and as they put it, they were afraid of human waste.

Ok, some may go.. yip, good for them. NO.

This is another effort in the process to dehumanize OWS and make them look dirty and DIFFERENT from you. The media has been going on and on and on as to how dirty these camps are. I have visited a camp, I can tell you that yes, they have a homeless population, which was there before OWS showed up, And I can tell you this was sheer theater to dehumanize OWS.

For the record I did transport a patient who WAS homeless, who was covered in human waste, and a few maggots, as in a few thousand of them on an infected wound, and lice. We did NOT wear hazmat of any kind. We wore gloves and masks... due to the possibility of this patient having a few issues, of the contagious kind. Why am I telling you the story? Because this was theater, of the worst kind.

As to that patient, he was also not quite alright in the head, so ended up at the local psychiatric hospital.

We also transported another one who fell on a septic tank, again, no hazmat... and trust me, the decon was all but fun for either of them, or the rigs.

So no, LAPD engaged in a tad of theater last night... the kind of theater that is meant to dehumize the movement. And what is sad is that people who should know better, fall for it... that is what is sad.

As to OWS, no, it is not dead. As I wrote the other day... it will evolve and again surprise the powerful that is truly going after... it is NOT done.

[lonestarnot]

1. Ours is/was spotless! People even cleaned nearby 5 Guys' bathroom!

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. I know, and you know...

why I said theater. It is a well known propaganda tactic

[StarsInHerHair]

182. try comparing it to tsa theater, many KNOW that is bs

[Fire Walk With Me]

3. Bravo. Just say NO! to fear mongers.

I was at that site three times for hours on end and the only issue was the porta-potties, for obvious reasons.

I'm very wary of large groups, being an extreme introvert, but #Occupy Los Angeles felt like HOME. I saw more than a few interesting things and chatted with folks with whom I shared a quick recognition of purpose and...just loving being with other people working on and for the same level.

It was Beautiful. It was recognition, intelligence, heart, compassion, inclusion, welcoming, understanding, supportive, reinforcing...all things pretty much missing most other places. As you imply, they do NOT want us to realize our strength in unity, our recognition of each other. They want us to go sit back down, alone, in front of a television (which they pretty much control).

No fear! Welcome the weak, the hurting, the hungry, the homeless, because they are us! (sidebar about the mayor and city taking money from homeless funds for their own purposes: I'll start an OP..)

:hi:

[malthaussen]

4. Most major cities don't have to look far

... to find a bit of human waste lying around. If you've ever walked through Penn Station in Philly, you know the fragrance is piquant.

So yeah, theatre. But people of good will are going to believe it, especially when the media show pics of trashed tents and litter after the police have made their raids. They don't quite make the connection that it was the cops who created the slum.

-- Mal

[lonestarnot]

5. Big pile of crap in the parking lot where I work and no one has bothered to clean it up

for nearly a fucking month. So yeah, don't have to look very hard.

[saras]

6. Maybe theater. Maybe to protect themselves against stuff that they're spreading.

If history is any indication, it will be thirty or forty years before you will know.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Some of the stuff they are spreading is pepper spray

secondary contamination from that crap is like nasty stuff.

I got my experience of decontaminating a gentleman they used tear gas on... (and it was a proper use of it, either gas or bullet... they chose to try the gas first)

[Arctic Dave]

7. +1

Way overboard for anything they would come in contact with.

[nashville_brook]

8. spot on.

[ellisonz]

9. Clean-up workers are still wearing them...

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/11/occupy-la-30-tons-of-debris-left-behind-at-city-hall-tent-city.html

Must be theater, and not just working Americans taking precaution - you know those public workers everyone loves to rag on these days.

So they should have just worn gloves and masks now? I thought before there was no issue at all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Re-read the post

I actually transported two people for whom you could make an argument for a L-3 Hazmat suit...

This is not it.

You eat the media meme as much as you wish. This is like the security theater at the airport... just like it. And it is meant to dehumanize the protestors

THINK NAZI GERMANY. THINK INDIAN WARS. THINK ANY WAR WHERE YOU NEED TO MAKE THE OTHER.

[SlimJimmy]

12. I read a news article on Google news that said there was 30 tons of trash and the strong odor of

urine and feces at the encampment. Not true? Is AP lying?

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Yes, and if you cannot spot

the propaganda I cannot help you.

The smell of urine could be coming from the porta potties that were on site and were cleaned twice a day. What if they threw them into the trash they created? Did you even consider that one? I doubt it.

[SlimJimmy]

19. It's an article on the front page of Google by the AP. Hardly the

propaganda mecca of the internet. If you have information to the contrary (an article from another source, pictures of the camp from today), then please provide it so we can all be as well informed as you apparently are.

I'm sorry, but your word alone will not cut it when making such pronouncements.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Posters here

on this very site, have told us how camps are CLEAN overall.

Not that the AP will publish that. They have gone out of their way to tell us how the camps are full of drunks, drugs, and trash.

Gone to a camp? No, I am being very serious here.

I can tell you my local paper posted this... how the place was full of druggies, (one, unless I count all the cig smokers), how the place was dirty (cleaned by the residents every day), and how it attracted the homeless (the ones who were already there before OWS showed up)

You really need to get out of the house a little more. Our media is in the midst of a campaign, not unlike the one mounted against oh... hippies.

[SlimJimmy]

43. So, in other words, you can't provide any articles or pictures from today that

disprove what the AP article stated. That's all I asked you to do.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. Written by whom? The MSM is on a mission

you might want to WATCH keith Olberman interview one of the activists.

Or not.

You could ask Coalition Unwilling, or Fire Walk with Me, or Pynboyner as well.. OR NOT.

After all, we know the press is far more reliable than first hand witnesses.

[SlimJimmy]

50. That's what I thought. Thanks for confirming. (nt)

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. What that you believe MSM story lines on this

We know that already. If they tell you there were golden turds there, you'd believe it.

[SlimJimmy]

56. *You* saying they are lies is not *proof* that they are. All I want, and all I asked

was for you to provide any independent proof that they are lying. I asked that you provide that in the way of an article or actual pictures from the camp from today. If you are right, and the AP story is wrong, that should be a very easy thing to do. So far, nothing from you except your opinion, and you telling me to travel to LA to see for myself.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. Watch TONIGHT's KEITH OLBERMAN COUNTDOWN

and yes Slimjimmy we have a history of the US Media doing this shit, going to at least the 1920s and the Turner Raids, so sorry if I call them as I see them...

[SlimJimmy]

131. Proof is *not* history, and it is not your opinion of history based on what

might have happened in the past. But don't worry about it. Another poster has answered my very simple question.

[nadinbrzezinski]

146. You mean one of the posters I referred to

You welcome.

Oh and one last thing, it is an INFORMED OPINION BY A LONG HISTORY, which allows that propaganda spotting. The perception war is on.

[SlimJimmy]

160. NO, they actually provided PROOF. You know, that thing I asked for several times?

I guess you missed that part of my posts (or ignored it) I'm not sure which.

[nadinbrzezinski]

161. I directed YOU TO THEM, since they are FIRST HAND WITNESSES

I also referred you to Keith Olberman's COUNTDOWN where he INTERVIEWED a first hand witness as well.

First hand accounts I guess are NOT proof these days.

Have a good life slimjimmy and enjoy the propaganda, it is just going to get that much worst, given that pesky HISTORY...

[SlimJimmy]

180. You provided nothing, not a single cite or pictures. Pointing me to a couple of

posts in this thread or to watch Keith is NOT what I repeatedly asked for. But you know that already. Nice dodge, Nadin.

[nadinbrzezinski]

189. So telling you to watch the first story on

Countdown is a dodge, I have no clue what your problem is dude, but certainly it is not mine, Have a good fracking life.

[SlimJimmy]

192. Yes, I asked for articles in the press or pictures from that day. How much more simple

could I have made it? You have a nice fracking life as well, dudette.

[crazyjoe]

206. you shouldn't question Nadin, Don't you know she is smarter than everyone else.

[SlimJimmy]

208. So I'm told.

:)

[WildNovember]

117. The park is about 500 feet by 500 feet. Here are some picture before the police tore down the tents

I see tents and signs but no piles of shit. I also don't see random piles of garbage lying around.

If you take a look at the park on google maps you can see that the few trees in the park are trimmed well above ground level. There is nowhere to shit that you wouldn't be in full view of the people in the park a/o the traffic going by the park. It's not a wilderness, it's a 500 x 500 foot space literally on the steps of city hall. Mostly filled by tents. Do you really think people are shitting and peeing on the ground next to their tents or other peoples tents? You must really have a jaundiced view of people.

Of course, if you tore down all those tents and threw the stuff inside them around, it would look like a big mess. But the police did that, not the protestors. The "tons of debris" mentioned in that report are the torn-down tents and signs.

But I think they're stretching it when they talk about "30 tons". I doubt 100 tents and tarps would be more than a couple of 1-ton trucks max, so not really sure where the other 28 tons would come from. There weren't 28 tons of signs, and i doubt there were 28 tons of personal effects.

Here's an account from someone not particularly sympathetic to the protest. He mentions the smell of patchouli, but not the smell of urine.

http://www.tomcroom.com/?p=8401

The media have an agenda, as you learn when you read media accounts of a protest that you have actually attended.

[SlimJimmy]

130. Thank you. Finally someone who actually answered the question.

I agree. I think it's quite a stretch to say there was 30 tones of trash at the camp. I'm thinking that the trash they were talking about was the camp itself once it was torn down.

[coalition_unwilling]

133. Having visited the camp many times between October 1 and November 30 (most

recently November 27-28), I can personally vouch for there being no scent of urine or feces anywhere in the camps. The porta-potties were located on sidewalks on the perimeter and, yes, on warm days, you could smell them before you saw them. But isn't that what you would expect of a camp with as many as 600 tents at its height and minimal assistance from city sanitation?

I think you also need to look a little more closely at what the AP has become since the 1980s. It has a reputation for being a propaganda arm of the right-wing. Been awhile since I was in the print journalism game and I haven't stayed fully abreast. But holding up the AP as some independent, objective arbiter itself needs to be subjected to critical examination.

[SlimJimmy]

145. Again, thanks. Since my first post in this thread, I have been looking for

other stories that said the same thing (non-AP) and found a number of them. I guess it might have been a *pool* story that was spread from a single source.

[SlimJimmy]

156. Sorry, forgot to include a link to one of the stories. This one is from the

LA Times.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/11/occupy-la-30-tons-of-debris-left-behind-at-city-hall-tent-city.html

[coalition_unwilling]

167. OK, the "30 tons of debris" includes, if you read the LA Times story

in its entirety, belongings that were left behind when residents were given 3 10-mintue warnings to disperse. That's right, a lot of the so-called "debris" was personal belongings of camp residents that they were given insufficient time to remove:

"The sheer volume of personal belongings left behind after the early morning Los Angeles Police Department raid has astonished city workers: books and CDs, luggage and boom boxes, mattresses and dining chairs, cellphones, electric razors, a small red guitar with its neck snapped –- all surrounded by dozens of collapsed and empty tents."

The more I think about this the more certain I am that Villaraigosa and his 1200 LAPD goons pulled off an illegal eviction, especially after councilpeople like Bill Rosendahl and Eric Garcetti told residents they could 'stay as long' as they liked. Many residents had stayed there longer than 30 days, enough time under California law to establish rights of tenancy and 'squatters rights.'

And, as a musician, I do wonder exactly how that 'small red guitar' had 'its neck snapped.' Based on what I saw and subsequently read, one of the LAPD goons took delight in deliberately snapping the guitar's neck as a proxy for some hapless OLA Occupier's neck.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

176. Oh, fucking give it up ...

If you want to be informed, go to an Occupy encampment and find out for yourself.

I can't believe you'd take the AP's word for it over people that are actually there. Occupy Chapel Hill is pretty clean. We keep it clean.

[SlimJimmy]

178. Oh fucking give it a rest. Try reading the *whole* thread before you bloviate about what I

do and do not believe.

[Name removed]

179. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SlimJimmy]

181. I think you need a beer. Calm down.

[StarsInHerHair]

183. I guess you REALLY believed there were wmds in Iraq then

[SlimJimmy]

194. Have you read through this entire thread and my responses?

If you had, I don't think you would have asked that question?

[Juneboarder]

14. yes. nt

[sabrina 1]

24. Yes, they were lying.

Have you been to any of these encampments btw?

30 tons :rofl:

Unfortunately for them, there are so many witnesses who actually have been there. The AP gets the pool memo and simply does as they are told. Spread around the propaganda for the Corporations.

No need for investigative journalists anymore in this country. The Corps pay big bucks to get this kind of 'news'. Funny how we KNOW this when they are say, attacking Obama, but then forget about it when they are attacking something we do not support.

Why do you not support this movement? Do you support not holding those who crashed the world accountable, continuing to bail them out, covering for their crimes and corruption?

[SlimJimmy]

49. Who said I didn't support the movement? I was simply asking a poster to

provide a cite that backed up her contention that the AP was lying. I'm on record here multiple times supporting OWS, so feel free to give your completely unfounded allegations a rest. I'm looking to determine the truth, and unless there are cites that contradict what I've been reading, then I have to go with what is being reported.

Do YOU have any cites or pictures from today?

[sce56]

119. I have been to Occupy LA many times since it opened and never saw a big mess!

Note the Plywood covering a statue was erected by the city to protect it yet a reporter said look at the work it is going to take to get this dismantled!

[Odin2005]

198. You don't need hazmat suits to deal with shit and piss.

[ellisonz]

15. And I've cleaned up encampments as a government worker...

On public land, both camps that are orderly and messy. One thing I can tell you: you never know when you're going to find medical or human waste. Furthermore, a big problem for this type of work is human waste and other toxic substances mixed in with dust particles. So yeah they need protection..

This thread:

For the record I did transport a patient who WAS homeless, who was covered in human waste, and a few maggots, as in a few thousand of them on an infected wound, and lice. We did NOT wear hazmat of any kind. We wore gloves and masks... due to the possibility of this patient having a few issues, of the contagious kind. Why am I telling you the story? Because this was theater, of the worst kind.

Would you be making the same claims if they were wearing gloves and masks/respirators?

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. Congrats, you are eating the damn propaganda

and I can't help you.

And if they wore masks, not respirators, there is a difference, and gloves, sure whatever, that is like standard and shit. NOT L-3 hazmat suits.

Hell if you want to add a construction helmet, sure, whatever, that is standard.

[polly7]

151. We had a hazmat suit in one of the door compartments, as far as I know,

it's never been used. We've picked people up living in horrible conditions, I've been vomited on, bled and urinated on all in the space of minutes. Apart from gloves and, occasionally, a mask ... no suit. I don't fault anyone for being afraid of disease or contamination but in this case, I agree it's probably got a lot to do with making OWS look bad.

[Major Nikon]

153. No more so than yourself

You don't know the actual reason they chose to wear the suits any more than he does. So what you're proposing is pure speculation, so are you saying nobody but you is allowed to speculate and if they disagree they must be eating "propaganda"? Lighten up a little, you'll live longer.

Employers are required by OSHA to provide a safe working area for their employees. The city was citing hazardous living conditions as a reason to clean up the sites in the first place (whether or not this was a valid claim is irrelevant). It's very possible the police union advised management they should take precautions to protect their cops or they would face OSHA complaints, and/or grievances. Some police union contracts also have provisions for hazardous duty pay if personal protective equipment isn't provided and required where warranted. The union where I work files complaints like this all the time, and more often than not they win.

So maybe your speculation is correct, but there are other possibilities, and pointing those out isn't "eating the damn propaganda".

[nadinbrzezinski]

164. Tell me, if this was the case

why is it that not all officers clearing tents, or transporting prisoners wore these suits?

More to the question, why is it that LAPD is the FIRST department to bring these things out of storage?

There is a LONG history of this in US History, and creating the other when the other does not please the powers that be.

What the AP ran, for example, with some changes in language could easily be the story run in the 1920s after the Turner Raids, or the story run for them damn hippies... or them commies, or those lazy union workers.

So some of the tools are new, tyvek suits... but the language and imagery is not.

[Major Nikon]

173. If the purpose was as you claim, the same question could be asked

I'm sure not all officers were assigned the same duties. Some could be assigned the duties of pepper spraying arm locked protesters and others could be assigned the duties of carrying people out. I have no idea. Only the PD is going to know for sure, but assuming that all PDs are going to use the exact same tactics and/or the same personal protective equipment is fruitless. They have independent management that is going to do what they feel is necessary for their particular circumstance.

[sabrina 1]

27. Again you are repeating yourself.

But I am curious, why do you not support this movement? I am going to be conributing to some articles on the 'left' and OWS and I am genuinely curious about people who are supposedly on the left who do not support this movement and would like to talk about the actual issues they disagree with rather than the propaganda from Big Business for a change. So, are you opposed to this movement and if so why?

[ellisonz]

37. See Post #21 below.

[backscatter712]

23. Is "Ignored" claiming Occupiers smear themselves with shit all day again? n/t

[StarsInHerHair]

184. yes

[sabrina 1]

17. By your logic, then. All those cops who cleared out other

occupations without Hazmat suits, should be in the hospital right now.

Look, you don't have to support this movement, it is a free country and you can say 'I don't support it' without ramifications of any kind. And it's not against DU rules either. But if you do not support it, then oppose it based on actual facts, not on these transparent, and most likely paid for attempts to discredit it with childish theater tactics which is costing tax payers a lot of money and not fooling anyone with a brain cell still functioning. In fact, all this does is help to strengthen it.

We KNOW why THEY won't address the actual issues this movement is about. Why don't you just tell us why you oppose it, rather than try to justify these ridiculous tactics for which there is zero justification.

If you do that, then we can have an intelligent conversation. No one is buying this, so you are not gaining anything by repeating over and over the same arguments.

What is it about this movement that you disagree with?

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Well at least they did not go for the MORE expensive suits

http://www.pksafety.com/dupont-hazmat-tyvek-protective-suit-ty122s-1414.html

Still it adds up... but since they buy in volume maybe they got a discount, These are a one use jobbies.

[sabrina 1]

22. It was all about 'imagery'. And I guess for some, that worked.

But I have confidence that more and more people are waking up and are not happy, including people on the right, with the Police State they are witnessing even if they do not agree with these protesters.

[coalition_unwilling]

136. But see my post #132 and the evocation of Star Wars in the

costuming and sumptuary excess. This may well backfire on LAPD on the primal visual level, at least for any fans of George Lucas.

[sabrina 1]

200. I did see it, and I agree!

Sometimes imagery CAN backfire. And that's what we should call them if they do it again. Make it stick so they are afraid to be seen in their white, bad guy, Star Wars outfits :-)

Make fun of them is probably the best strategy.

[ellisonz]

21. I don't oppose it. I question it's tactics...

...and I don't judge public workers for doing their jobs when they do them in accordance with the law.

They would be a lot more effective movement if they were mobile and quick hitting as opposed to being wed to encampments. You know like actually go after bankers and their political allies (primarily Republicans at this point)...

These tactics aren't winning public support.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. Ok I will tell you what I have said to others

HERE it will have ZERO effect GO TO A LOCAL GENERAL ASSEMBLY and propose it. They want to hear from you

As to general public... and all that, a lot of what you are saying could have been printed by the mainstream press.

[ellisonz]

29. I don't think they want to hear it.

There's an element of mimicry to this and anything detouring from that is not going to be kindly received.

If they haven't figured it out they must not be reading their own press coverage. How are you going to change things if nobody reads positive things about you? And this is the problem with a lack of elected leadership. The women's rights movement had it, the civil rights movement had it, the farm workers movement had it. We'll see what they decide to do now that local authorities have stopped the overnight camping.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2405277

[ellisonz]

31. And post number #23 proves my point...

You ignore criticism at your own peril.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. And you don't know until you

show up.

Serious.

This is a movement that IS evolving.

I do not get involved in a GA, something about reporting and code of conduct and NOT becoming a part of the story. But they are quite open. Will you reach consensus? YOu do not know until you try.

It seems to me you have convinced yourself that this is a closed off moment, No, they are not

But here, you will have zero effect on this... and I mean it...

[ellisonz]

36. They're gonna have to evolve now...

I've been busy with other things - like trying to find full-time employment. Plus I think I probably would have been roundly booed - social dynamics being what they are and such.

I'll do my part when 2012 comes around - a Republican administration at this point is unthinkable.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. And here is where they differ

you still believe the solution is in the system... many of them don't... will they vote? Yes, but will they actively campaign no.

And at this point I agree with them, without systemic changes all we are doing is spinning our wheels.

I get you have no clue what they want... never mind it's been posted here. And I will leave it at that.

[ellisonz]

51. Again with the presumption I have some sort of reading comprehension problem...

So the solution is to sleep in parks and practice a new way of living? Where have I heard that before, oh the same people who let Richard Nixon win the presidency, twice.

Activism is good - but crapping on other peoples activism while your at it, not so much. I'll stick with the Party of FDR, Truman, JFK, LBJ, Carter, Clinton and Obama.

[Downwinder]

53. I think sleeping raw is the intent of TPTB.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Not quite, you are fixated on one aspect of this

and cannot comprehend, nor wish to, what is the critique. We understand this.

By the way, my local camp, if it was BEHIND police headquarters, (like an actual homeless encampment happens to be) that would be fine. It is out of mind, out of sight and all that.

Now doing this with a POLITICAL message, that cannot be tolerated.

[coalition_unwilling]

140. I have NEVER, not once, seen anyone booed at an OLA GA. It's

clear you're happy to work within the existing electoral framework, as is your perogative. However, I can almost guarantee your dissent will be warmly welcomed at your local Occupy site. And there will almost certainly be some who agree with you there but who were unable or unwilling to articulate their own dissent.

FWIW, at the GA of November 27-28, there were between 3-4,000 people. There was some good-natured heckling. BUT NOT ONE INSTANCE OF BOOING!

[StarsInHerHair]

185. women's rights movement they were arrested, people threw rocks & bottles

at them, they went on aa hunger strike while in prison & were force fed........wtf are you talking about re: "good images", that came AFTER, later, when they won.

http://pbskids.org/wayback/civilrights/features_suffrage.html "At first, the suffragists were politely ignored. But on April 6, 1917, the United States entered World War I. The suffragists' signs became more pointed. They taunted Wilson, accusing him of being a hypocrite. How could he send American men to die in a war for democracy when he denied voting rights to women at home? The suffragists became an embarrassment to President Wilson. It was decided the picketing in front of the White House must stop.

Spectators assualted the picketers, both verbally and physically. Police did nothing to protect the women. Soon, the police began arresting the suffragists on charges of obstructing traffic. At first, the charges were dropped. Next, the women were sentenced to jail terms of just a few days. But the suffragists kept picketing, and their prison sentences grew. Finally, in an effort to break the spirit of the picketers, the police arrested Alice Paul. She was tried and sentenced to 7 months in prison."...

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/Whunger.htm "On 25th June 1909 Marion Wallace-Dunlop was charged "with wilfully damaging the stone work of St. Stephen's Hall, House of Commons, by stamping it with an indelible rubber stamp, doing damage to the value of 10s." According to a report in The Times Wallace-Dunlop printed a notice that read: "Women's Deputation. June 29. Bill of Rights. It is the right of the subjects to petition the King, and all commitments and prosecutions for such petitionings are illegal."

Wallace-Dunlop was found guilty of wilful damage and when she refused to pay a fine she was sent to prison for a month. On 5th July, 1909 she petitioned the governor of Holloway Prison: “I claim the right recognized by all civilized nations that a person imprisoned for a political offence should have first-division treatment; and as a matter of principle, not only for my own sake but for the sake of others who may come after me, I am now refusing all food until this matter is settled to my satisfaction.” YES IT HAPPENED ON BOTH SIDES OF THE ATLANTIC On 22nd September 1909 Charlotte Marsh, Laura Ainsworth and Mary Leigh were arrested while disrupting a public meeting being held by Herbert Asquith. As Michelle Myall has pointed out: "The police attempted to move the two women by, among other methods, turning a hosepipe on them and throwing stones. However, Charlotte Marsh and Mary Leigh proved to be formidable opponents and were only brought down from the roof when three policeman dragged them down."

Marsh, Ainsworth and Leigh were all sentenced to two weeks' imprisonment. They immediately decided to go on hunger-strike, a strategy developed by Marion Wallace-Dunlop a few weeks earlier. Wallace-Dunlop had been immediately released when she had tried this in Holloway Prison, but the governor of Winson Green Prison, was willing to feed the three women by force.

[coalition_unwilling]

138. Thanks, Nadin. Those who nay-say the Occupy movement often

fail to realize that their dissent will be roundly welcomed at their local Occupy site (albeit perhaps disagreed with :) I have gained so much respect for my fellow countrymen from going to the Occupy Los Angeles site. Visiting there has been a sure-fire cure for any tendency I might have to petit-bourgeois elitism.

[nadinbrzezinski]

172. In fact, GAs want to hear from them

As they say, the more, the merrier.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

177. Occupy is all about dissent!!!

[sabrina 1]

41. They are one of the most successful movements we have seen

in decades. In fact, I don't know of any movement that has been successful in my lifetime. They have far more support even at this early stage of the movement, than the Civil Rights movement had after years of fighting. Far more support than the anti-war movement or the women's rights movement.

So I guess they ARE doing it right. And as we go into the coming second crash, they will have even more support. This is a spectacularly successful movement. They have forced the conversation to change. They have spread all over the country and the globe in just two months. They are WAY more popular than Congress eg.

They can bring out one hundred thousand people in the middle of the week and shut down a city to protest the near killing of a US Veteran by multi national robo cops. What other group can do that on such short notice?

So, the tactics are working great and evolving of course, but what about the issues? How do you feel about the very clear message of this movement? Do you agree or disagree?

[ellisonz]

52. That's a bold claim.

However, it's really starting to look like a flash in the pan.

Being more popular than Congress isn't hard. But the funny thing is that people actually still like their individual congress members.

What point is there in shutting down a city?

Excuse me while I take my Howard Dean and Barack Obama pins and actually change the world. :-)

P.S. Libya is looking pretty damn peaceful and still very much free.

[sabrina 1]

63. So what issues that they are talking about do you disagree with

with?

As for Libya, I don't know what you are reading, but the country is a disaster. Libyans are living in terror, not just the Sub-Saharan Africans but millions of Libyans who are afraid to go out of their homes for fear of being murdered by the criminals who slaughtered Black Africans and have yet to be held accountable. But the money is flowing to the West, so in that sense, the Western Invasion was a success, they now have access to Libya's resources, which was the reason for the pretend revolution from the beginning. Even their own unelected 'governement' has been forced to make some kind of statement about the dire conditions in what used to be the most prosperous nation in Africa.

[ellisonz]

65. I don't disagree with their issues. I disagree with their tactics.

They had access to Libya's resources. How else do you think Gaddafi got $200 billion in assets? Elections will be held soon.

[sabrina 1]

67. Their tactics are working exactly as planned.

So I don't understand what you think they should have done differently. What they are doing is working. They have changed the conversation. This is only the beginning and it has been a spectacular beginning so far. What do you want them to do? Hold a one day protest as we did against the war, which no one who is not there will see, and then go home?

Everyone I talk to knows about this movement and they know why they are there, Republicans, Independents and Democrats, young and old. THAT is success.

The purpose is to put focus on the issues and they have done that and will continue to do so.

But what issues do you agree with them on and what would you do to get even more attention for them?

Libya is a different topic. I will be writing about that in the future, with real sources, a history, and some facts rather than the propaganda we get here in the West about these ME and African countries.

[ellisonz]

75. I wouldn't engage in civil disobediance once police move in.

Sometimes it's called for; this is neither the time nor place. The police are part of the 99%.

I would remove encampments when requested - city clean-up workers are the 99%.

In essence, I'd actually target the 1% for protest instead of making a spectacle.

Everyone knows who the Tea Party is too. Notoriety is not success.

When it morphs from an economic protest to a protest over park rules and police action its going off message.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. In other words, you;d ask for a permit

which no longer makes it civil disobedience.

:eyes:

[ellisonz]

91. I wouldn't require a massive police response.

What's the point?

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. Ask people engaged in other social movements.

Chose your poison, but your logic leads to no American revolution, it leads to no labor organizing...did I mention the vote for women? How about the civil rights? Anti war movement? And that is just us history.

Good thing those people had vision and did not ask for a permit.

:eyes: indeed.

Steele Comager will be more to your liking, forget Zinn. Serious.

[sabrina 1]

88. So they should all behave like good little boys and girls and just

do whatever they are told, regardless if what they are being told to do violates their rights?

What if Gandhi or MLK had done that? Would we ever have heard from them?

If Rosa Parks had just gone and sat in the back of the bus as she was told to do, would African Americans still be relegated to the backs of buses?

The anti-war movement did as you advise. The got their permits, they went where they were permitted, they left when they were told to leave, and no one who was not there, even knows there were huge rallies against the war, and we are now in even more wars, in Yemen, in Afghanistan, in Iraq, in Libya, in Somalia, in Uganda, in Syria, (under cover for now) and planning on more. So those well-behaved people accomplished exactly nothing.

And that is why THIS time, because of the failure of the anti-war movement they are not going to be told to do anything that violates their Constitutional rights without resistance, and you can see the difference already. Everyone knows about them, NO ONE knows about the Anti War movement if they were not a part of it.

And no one knows that the original Tea Party held big rallies on Wall Street in 2009 before they were taken over by the far right. Because they were so well-behaved.

This movement, which began in Spain, learned from all those failures, and so far, they have been far more successful.

[ellisonz]

90. You can stop comparing OWS to Gandhi and MLK now...

Plus it's really moronic to declare that this is most successful social movement ever when it's not even over. :-)

People who have to make such comparisons don't have much to stand on. I'd compare this much more to the any number of protests that have occurred over the last decade or so targeted at globalization beginning with the Battle of Seattle.

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. But the conversation has changed

You might not want to believe this, but it is empirically testable that we are actually talking of income inequality.

My only quibble with sabrina's time line is that it goes further back than the May 25 movement, aka Los Indignados. Alas that is way too much inside baseball.

And yes, this is a global, modern day, social movement. You chose your side, we can see that. But it is what it is.

[sabrina 1]

95. You're avoiding the question again. Should Rosa Parks have

done as she was told and if she had, what would have been accomplished?

OWS most certainly is comparable to other social movements such as the Civil Rights movement and the Gandhi movement. Maybe you really do not know what is at stake in this country.

Well behaved people are nice, but when they are pitted against ruthless powerful people, their good behavior will keep them enslaved. Sorry you don't support this historical movement. But that is your right.

[ellisonz]

100. Again with the us vs. them.

This country has been worse. We've got work to do but it's not mission impossible. Vote Democratic in 2012, if you give a damn. :hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. Good luck with that.

[sabrina 1]

108. You mean vote for candidates who will work for the people,

not for corporations don't you? To continue to vote for corporate candidates as we have been doing, is going to do exactly what? I will be looking at who is financed by Wall Street this time. That will determine who I support.

[WildNovember]

126. I've voted Democratic in every election since I came of age. The country

and the Party have both continued to move rightward regardless. The "Party of FDR" you mentioned is now negotiating how much of FDRs legacy to destroy and on what terms.

[polly7]

154. Personal assets? Once again ...... no. That 200 billion was in gov't assets that

had been invested wisely all over the world and was used to provide all those social benefits. Even the newspapers had to finally admit the money was in Gov't accounts that were obviously so unhidden they were able to very easily be confiscated and are now being used once more.

[treestar]

60. There is no logic in your post at all

First point is not true. No other cops without hazmat suits don't have to be in the hospital to prove it was still a good idea of wear them. Lots of people who don't wear seat belts don't end up in hospitals. It's called luck.

And what is it with any questions at all being non-support of the movement? This movement surely won't last long with so many conditions on side issues. It appears that even defending the concept that there should be a police force is non-support of this movement. Makes them look crazy.

[sabrina 1]

64. Not questions, lies. There is a difference between legitimate

questions and pushing the lies that the Corporations are pushing to try to shut up the American people who are now fully aware of what is going on in this country.

A concerted effort has been made to try, although so far it only works with those who have a vested interest in undermining the American people's efforts to take the money out of our political system, to try to undermine them. And as we saw from the leaked memo, they are asking to put money into destroying this movement.

But if you want to believe the lies from the right, that's your prerogative, but I have seen not one iota of proof that the camp was dirty or unhealthy. What IS unhealthy for the American people, as we HAVE seen, are robo cops beating up Citizens and nearly killing them. Funny you don't seem too concerned about that, considering how many people HAVE been nearly killed by these criminals.

[treestar]

137. I once had a client as crazy as that

Everyone she didn't want to think about was a "lie."

Unrec'd for vague generalities.

[sabrina 1]

202. Calling some crazy for pointing out that lies were told

by the police regarding the Park, doesn't change the fact that they lied. I spoke to a member of the City Council today and it seems they were not in agreement with what happened. So the question is, who is in charge of these attacks on protesters? I asked, she told me to call back as they would like to now also.

So, I'm very comfortable with my opinion that they lied being there are so many witnesses to prove it. And as the Council Member said to me today 'they were very peaceful, there were no problems, no 'filth', they really took care of the place'.

So I'll go with her assessment rather than someone who clearly wants this movement to fail if you don't mind.

[WildNovember]

112. The point is that hospital workers don't wear hazmat suits. Neither do nursing home aides,

and they clean up shit hourly. Neither do people who work at homeless shelters. Neither do most people who work in places with disease, shit, or crowds.

[treestar]

139. Controlled environments.

Where are the rules or protocols the cops use for this? They are provided with the hazmat suits in some instances - what is the standard for those instances? We need that to be in the least big objective as to whether they are blatantly using them here when they would not normally be.

[Capitalocracy]

142. I'm sure it makes perfect sense for the police to wear HAZMAT suits

when raiding an area covered in feces and urine... but this is NOT an example of such an area, and the police knew it. They put on these costumes to support their narrative that this was a health hazard when it wasn't.

And simple logic tells us the police knew this area wasn't covered in feces. Do you think they wouldn't arrest anyone who was just defecating in public in the middle of this camp? I don't think the other protesters would complain if they arrested someone for that.

If there was a giant cesspool of the bodily fluids of the protesters at that camp, there would be pictures of it all over the internet.

[WildNovember]

111. What they're calling "debris" is the protestors' belongings.

Tents, tarps, food and personal items. It didn't become "debris" until the police threw them out and trashed the camp.

They were given 10 minutes to pack up and leave.

And personally, I seriously doubt there were 30 1-ton truckloads of it, if only because the park is so small, about 500 feet by 500 feet judging from google maps. It's a very small park, and it's right outside city hall, literally on the steps of city hall.

http://maps.google.com/maps?um=1&hl=en&q=%22city%20hall%20park%22%20la&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=853l4776l0l5181l2l2l0l0l0l0l491l632l0.1.4-1l2l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&biw=1024&bih=574&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=il

[Downwinder]

26. Supposedly they had fears of MRSA.

In which case they should proscribe those suits for all hospital visits.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. THAT is the excuse?

Now that is funny.

[Downwinder]

38. That was on OAKFOSHO's video.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. Either I missed it

or I had already collapsed.

:-)

[Downwinder]

45. It was about the time of the Mayor's statement. I don't remember

who said it, it might have Commander Smith. Afterward he showed the foot decontamination trays on his way out. I guess the next raid will be at Kaiser.

[unionworks]

30. I don't think

...cops get to determine what they wear. They follow department protocol. That aside, I believe the real reason tptb are tearing down the camps is that they are showing people there is a better way to live based on loving and caring for each other, as opposed to living in fear of authority and kkissing the asses of the privledged to survive. This is what truly frightens them, and they will not let it stand as long as they still control power.

[nadinbrzezinski]

33. Oh the tyvek suits were show

serious

The rest you wrote, there are many reasons they fear this.

[unionworks]

48. We wore those suits

Wworking on a huge generator frame for G.E.. Also rubber gloves and hairnets, and dust mask. We were grinding and painting, and in a generator, any kind of contamination left in there by workers reduces the ultimate efficency of the generator. They were a one time use throw away item. And I will concede the point of show purposes to you,but they also probably wantedd to keep their uniforms clean. A lot of them buy their own. :-)

[Fire Walk With Me]

34. I'll bet you cash money other mayors are wishing they'd thought of it first. -eom

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Like my local mayor

who had his cops arrest an activist for registering voters yesterday.

[Fire Walk With Me]

46. Read that. (facepalm)

[unionworks]

42. I have worn identical white suits

Working in industrial setting. The evil ulterior purpose? To keep my clothes underneath clean! K&R, btw. :-)

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. It is the show

not what they are used for.

It is the image.

[treestar]

58. How long ago was that?

Of all the complaints, this one is the coldest - why can't they protect themselves with whatever they have?

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. So you think this was not for show?

Truly... given that as far as I can tell NO OTHER PD has done this.

[treestar]

61. Why does it have to be for show?

Maybe they really want to do it in this case. Even if it is overkill, it doesn't mean they are doing it "for show." Not everything is about this movement. The police existed before it and will exist after it and may have all kinds of protocols, all different for every police force, some overkill and stupid, others not enough.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. Because it is not needed

that is why.

This helps to create the image of these people are dirty and different, therefore we need to do this.

When they clean encampments, as in real homeless ones, they don't do this.

This is like propaganda 101, and if you can't see it, we;d better stop discussing this, serious. But this was propaganda, to further dehuminze the Protesters.

Perhaps due to life experience my ear is tightly attuned to this crap...

[treestar]

134. You mean you stop discussing things with people you can't

convince right away?

How do we know this isn't normal protocol for that police force?

Why can't they overprotect themselves? It's their call. If I want to use hand sanitizer every time I shake someone's hand, that may be overkill too, but I can do so.

You're the one taking it that way and expecting everyone else to see it as you do instantly. Someone called the protectors "dirty" (which they well could be, and how would that undermine the point of the protest? You're letting the M$M direct your thinking) and so some police force using hazmat uniforms therefore is intimidating to them?

Maybe real "homeless encampments" are a lot smaller. Maybe they do sometimes wear hazmats if they are of like size.

[nadinbrzezinski]

163. You keep repeating the propapanda

none of us is going to stop you. Serious.

If you cannot spot obvious propaganda...

[sabrina 1]

110. Did they ever show up with bullet proof vests when the Tea

Partiers were hanging around armed to the teeth at Town Hall meetings, nearly causing riots and forcing many members of Congress to eventually cancel those meetings? I don't remember even seeing any cops, hazmats, special forces, robo cops or any other kind even though some Congressmembers complained of being afraid of violence at those meetings.

I also remember a woman having her head stomped on by teabaggers and another incident where one of them crossed a street in order to punch someone just standing on the sidewalk, etc. etc. And all those guns. But not once did I see a police officer dressed up like there was a war going on.

Now we have unarmed people, old people, children, veterans, nurses, preachers none of whom have even looked they might be violent, and armies of heavily armed cops are being sent out to attack them and have nearly killed several of them. Sad to see people on the left trying to excuse this garbage.

You have to kidding if you are saying this was not about attempting to make the occupiers look bad. And to hurt people, I do believe many of them actually do want to and some have, seriously hurt people.

[treestar]

135. Don't know, maybe they did at some point

The Tea Party never camped out overnight for a long period of time either. And their protests were much smaller (at least, as I recall several DU threads making fun of Glenn Beck's estimate of the crowds).

No one is excusing police who do wrong. You are making them in the wrong no matter what. That's garbage too.

[sabrina 1]

196. The TP caused members of Congress to have to cancel

Town Hall meetings because of their frightening behavior and they were armed. Yet, knowing how these Town Hall meetings were going, the police never made a show of force, nor did they wear bullet proof vests to create the impression that those protesters were a threat to Congressmembers. Because the TP was working FOR Wall St.

This was nothing but an attempt to undermine this protest because OWS is working AGAINST Wall Street corruption and the police work for them.

[ellisonz]

66. +1

[cherokeeprogressive]

68. My school district taught us teachers that human feces, urine, and vomitus were biohazards.

Is that wrong?

[sabrina 1]

69. How is that relevant to this conversation?

[cherokeeprogressive]

70. Read the first two fucking paragraphs of the OP, and then try to understand the gist of said OP.

Better yet, read the WHOLE fucking OP.

It's about human waste, hazmat suits, and theater.

I can find a thousand sites in a single GOOGLE search that identify ANY kind of human waste as HAZMAT.

The OP claims that wearing hazmat zootsuits last night was theater.

[sabrina 1]

71. I did read it. I saw that the lies of the cops and the mayor were

repeated in those paragraphs so that we could discuss them. Since they were lies, again, how is what you said relevant to the actual situation at Occupy LA?

[cherokeeprogressive]

73. Answer this simple question if you can... is HUMAN FECES, URINE, AND VOMITUS considered HAZMAT?

Is it?

Because that's what the OP is about. The OP claims that wearing "l-3" hazmat suits to clean up after the OWS-LA protesters was "theater".

So you're telling me that the point is moot? Would you wear gloves if you had to go into the park and clean up? If so, why?

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. It was theater since the camp had them

IN CONTAINED areas called a porta pottie, So UNLESS somebody splashed those onto the trash... IT WAS theater.

If you fall for it, well it is quite frankly NOT MY FAULT.

[cherokeeprogressive]

83. So what you're saying, nadin, is that you'd wade into the whole mess with no protection whatsoever

and feel good about it. You'd pick up any and every piece of trash, container of liquid, wet blanket, wet sleeping bag, ALL of it without so much as rubber gloves.

Got it. No worries.

Don't even try to tell me that you'd put on rubber gloves, because there's no reason for that. It would be "THEATER". There were porta-potties in the vicinity, after all.

Sounds like you've never been to a large outdoor concert... or even a drive-in theater. If you had, you'd know that people piss and shit everywhere they can rather than stand in a long line or even walk to the snack bar. And, they puke where they're standing.

Yeah, nadin... no need for protection other than to be theatric.

Daft.

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. No, I am telling you that you were fed a shit sandwitch

and that you believed that.

It is part of a PROPAGANDA campaign to tell you, and you believe it, that these people are dirty, the camps are full of drug addicts, and they are DIFFERENT.

That is what I am telling you.

The camp was clean, it had porta potties... where the crap was contained.

If you chose NOT to understand that, it is your choice to believe that yes, they are drug addled hippies, who have zero goals, and are just free riders.

And i have been to plenty of those events... I get out of the house and have even made a point to VISIT my local occupy.

Most of the folks who eat the shit sandwich are repeating media narratives and have NOT been to any of these camps.

Oh and this is as old as the Red Scare of the 1920s...

Now if you prefer to believe media narratives, I will not stop you. Have fun believing it.

Oh and one last thing... why is it that NO OTHER FRACKING POLICE DEPARTMENT HAS DONE THAT? Care to engate a brain cell or two? I am sure Mr. Bloomberg is kicking himself for NOT having thought off this HIMSELF.

[cherokeeprogressive]

107. I tried to engate my second brain cell, but it wasn't in the mood.

I know that one porta-potty services about 80 people before it's full.

You're trying sooo hard. Keep trying.

[nadinbrzezinski]

109. I am not trying

Suffice it to say you have your mind made up.

[U4ikLefty]

127. Hey genius, I've been there many times & always was able to access the many porta-potties.

You need to get a clue & stop acting so nasty out of your own ignorance.

Get over yourself.

[StarsInHerHair]

188. they also saild the same bs thing about Wisconsen Capital occupation

seems some here believe them thar wmds were FOUND in Iraq

[ecstatic]

144. +1,000,000

OP should be more careful in the future.

[nadinbrzezinski]

147. I did not say zero protection, did I?

Masks, as in surgical, gloves and if you need to in the setting construction helmets are sufficient.

[sabrina 1]

87. Was the park filthy or was it not?

The answer to that question is necessary before determining whether the ridiculous costumes they showed up in were necessary. So far, you have not answered the question, which is why I said your comment is not relevant. It is only relevant if the Cops and the Mayor and the Corporations and whoever else is trying to undermine this movement were telling the truth.

Oh yes, and I've cleaned up plenty of shit, dog shit, horse shit, children's shit, old people's shit and cleaned people's wounds among things, all without getting dressed up like a cartoon figure. OR without wearing gloves or anything else. And so far, I have never been sick from it.

[coalition_unwilling]

141. The only hazards I encountered in the park were things one might

trip over when walking the grounds in the dark, like tent posts or sidewalk lips. It was hard to see where you were going once the sun went down.

[dana_b]

89. no, feces, vomit and urine are NOT haz mat

as a nurse, I would wear gloves to dispose of human waste - not a haz mat suit. If a person were under what we would call "Droplet Precautions", we may wear a paper suit (along with a face mask). That would be of no use in this case (open air when people are gone). Basic gloving is called standard or universal precautions. The only time I've heard of emergency personnel using haz mat suits is for unknown gases, liquids or possibly flammable materials.

[ellisonz]

93. Nurses don't work in dusty fields generally speaking.

Wearing a paper suit for this type of work is not practical. They needed protection and the hazmat suits were what they have so they used them. According to the LA Times, city workers "have vacuumed up about 3,000 gallons of water that had washed into a catch basin in recent days and are testing it for hazardous materials."

[Downwinder]

96. Protection from Fukushima. Probably more of a threat than OLA.

[dana_b]

97. no, we only work where there are more contagions than almost anywhere else

- hospitals. I'll bet if we caught 3000 gallons of water from your neighbors' yards/homes that we could find hazardous materials. Run - fast! This b.s. was for show.

[ellisonz]

98. Hospitals are regularly cleaned and sterilized.

Hospital personnel take safety steps. Impromptu lawn encampments aren't, and police ought to allowed the same work place protections as hospital personnel.

[Downwinder]

99. I've got one just down from me that they abandoned

because they can't get the MRSA out.

[ellisonz]

102. Hospitals are regularly inspected.

I don't know what's going on in your situation. I'm not denying that hospitals can be a dangerous work environment. I'm just saying the police did what they felt was necessary.

[nadinbrzezinski]

104. Shakes head

[StarsInHerHair]

187. there are special wipes that kill mrsa, tb, etc available only to health dept

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. Oh my...you realize bacteria in hospitals

Are at times resistant like to everything?

Oh my fracking god.

That is why when I cut my lip with an O2 tank I was prescribed third gen antibiotics because at the time they were that new.

[ellisonz]

105. Duh.

But actually you basically just made my point that workers need to take precautions to protect themselves from public health risks. Go to sleep. :hi:

[nadinbrzezinski]

106. No, you are comparing theater

With a hospital.

:eyes: something about apples and rocks.

[WildNovember]

128. The people who clean and sterilize them don't wear Hazmat suits. Not to mention

the despite the cleaning and sterilizing, new infection, new shit, new pee, new barf is constantly entering them.

And hospital personnel don't wear hazmat suits. They wear masks and gloves and eye protection in some specific, highly infection/spurting sores/wounds cases, but not hazmat suits. And that's in a closed environment with partially recycled air, working with bodies in close quarters, unlike a park.

[WildNovember]

118. Look at the pictures of this 500x500 ft park and show me where the piles of feces are.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2406999&mesg_id=2409002

[StarsInHerHair]

186. answer me this:why don't nursing home workers wear hazmat suits?

[Downwinder]

76. Urine is sterile.

[cherokeeprogressive]

80. At the moment it comes out of the body it is...

So you're telling me that you'd take a paper towel or two and with your bare hands wipe up gallons of human urine, with no fear? No worries? No need for gloves for you, because "Urine is sterile"?

You're a braver human than I, surely.

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. You do know that the original excuse was MRSA

right?

Then it became human waste... perhaps they realized MRSA would not go too well

Again, if you want to believe the propaganda that is your issue.

[Downwinder]

82. Guess that comes from having to clean a septic tank by bucket

at 12. Septic tank was not near as bad as the grease trap.

[coalition_unwilling]

143. having flashbacks to cleaning out pig barns as a teenager. Never wore a hazmat

suit for that, but I sure wish I had :)

[WildNovember]

120. I've wiped up plenty of urine: human, dog and cat. With my bare hands & a rag or shovel or scoop.

Shit, too. Family and non family.

There were no piles of feces at the Occupy LA camp. I can say that within a certainty just by looking at the pre-raid pictures.

[woo me with science]

113. And when was the last time you saw a school janitor in a HAZMAT suit?

:eyes:

[WildNovember]

121. Did they issue you hazmat suits to work in, since little children are notorious shitters,

pee-ers and barfers? Plus nose-pickers and germ carriers.

They don't use hankies either, and they don't wash their hands or wipe properly. Sometimes they get head lice, also scabies. Ooooh, the horror!

[kenny blankenship]

72. You don't want to get teh Communism on you

It's contagious you know. Can't be too careful!

[cherokeeprogressive]

74. Yo ken... if "teh communism" comes in the form of shit... human shit both in log form and soft-serve

are you sticking your hands in it?

I don't want it on me.

Contagious or not, would YOU?

[kenny blankenship]

84. Anybody post pictures of the lagoon of human waste yet?

I'm sure there would be pictures of it if LAPD or local TV news could get them, and they'd be spattered all over the internets in about an hour. Here especially.

When I say "sea of human waste", I'm not referring to LAPD. I want to make that completely clear.

[Downwinder]

86. Bound to be some pictures from Spain they can co-opt.

[WildNovember]

123. I've been looking through pre-raid pictures of the camp and have yet to find that pool

of shit in the 500 x 500 ft space called "Occupy LA". A lot of tents and signs, but no shitpile.

I think these posters don't realize that the camp isn't in Central Park, where you could shit hidden from view. It's on the steps of City Hall, on the corner of two busy roads, in full view of the public with no shrubbery or untrimmed trees that would hide one from view while pulling down one's pants and taking a dump.

Plus there were tents covering most of it, so if you wanted to shit you'd have to shit next to your tent or someone elses.

These posters must believe that the people there are dogs or monkeys or something. Human animals instead of mostly middle-class kids.

[sabrina 1]

204. Lol. Glad you clarified that, I admit I wasn't sure.

Still no photos of the '30 tons of shit' though, although I have seen photos of the camp and it looks cleaner than some houses I've been in. I think that 'pile of shit' is the stories they are telling to be honest.

[WildNovember]

122. You reached the age of maturity without knowing that you don't clean up shit by sticking your hands

into it like bread dough?

Maybe in your case a hazmat suit is appropriate.

If you think park workers clean up shit with their hands, you also have deficits in your experience of everyday life.

[Odin2005]

201. Wow, you are really pitching the MSM propaganda, today.

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. And freedom gives me cooties, I know

:-)

[Ignis]

174. !

:spray: :thumbsup:

[woo me with science]

114. Yet TSA workers don't change their gloves....

after groping people's crotches.

These suits are a transparent political ploy to try to generate fear and revulsion in the public for OWS.

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. Yup, I am sure Bloomberg is kicking

himself for not thinking of this.

[woo me with science]

116. Thanks for these reports.

They are much appreciated.

[WildNovember]

124. ooh, thanks. Planes, speaking of germ vectors. Hazmat suits for all!

[Norrin Radd]

125. You are right about it being theatre.

Was watching OakFoSho's stream late last night. Commander Andy Smith told him and the mainstream press that the hazmat suits were for potential antibiotic resistant Staph in local homeless populations.

Sure it was!

[WildNovember]

129. Because people who work in homeless shelters *always* wear hazmat suits!!!

god, they think we're idiots.

[Odin2005]

203. Based on some of the responses in this very thread they are right.

The idiots are falling for it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

149. Well smith did not realize who he was feeding this to

But subtext matters...these people are so damn dirty, they are dangerous.

[coalition_unwilling]

132. To any fans of Star Wars, the LAPD's haz mat ploy may backfire

on them. Despite Fox11 and KTLA5 swooning over them, the image of the pigs in white reminded me of Lucas' imperial storm troopers, i.e., bad guys, making the scuffy Occupy Los Angeles by contrast into Luke Skywalker and Hans Solo. LAPD has a bad eye when it comes to iconic imagery. Or maybe their commanders and suppliers came of age before the Star Wars era.

[nadinbrzezinski]

148. Yet, as you saw from this thread

Mission accomplished.

[coalition_unwilling]

150. Not at all. Among those of us who have been paying attention since

mid-September (October 1 marked the official beginning of OLA), the use of the HazMat suits was pure BS.

For the unwashed masses who may not have been paying attention, seeing the cops attired as Imperial Storm Troopers may actually work against the propaganda aim of having cops show up in HazMat suits, if OLA becomes the Hans Solos and Luke Skywalkers of the theatrical set.

I kid you not, I got a total "Empire Strikes Back" vibe when I first saw the HazMat suits.

[nadinbrzezinski]

152. And in so cal that one matters.

Me not that tuned in to that culture, but I know a couple real hard core fans. Assuming they saw this...i'd like to ask.

[StarsInHerHair]

191. I got a Matrix vibe when they showed up all in blaxk in Oakland etc

[StarsInHerHair]

190. that & the bad guys from the 1999 The Matrix-all in black riot gear

[sabrina 1]

199. Yes, that was the image they conjured up for me also.

And so many people grew up with that image that I think you are probably right. But it will backfire for other reasons also, people are a little more intelligent that these morons give them credit for. And the people are waking up, that is why they are panicing.

[Dreamer Tatum]

155. I wear gloves to clean my own toilet

so it's kind of silly to begrudge people hazmat suits to clean up after scores of strangers.

Do you understand, even a little, that when you aggregate people for an extended period of time that
they can leave pathogens beyond the pee, crap, vomit, and mucus that you think either doesn't exist or is completely
benign?

No, you don't.

[coalition_unwilling]

157. Wow, Dreamer, the cops in HazMat suits were there as part of

'arrest teams,' according to the Fox 11 and KTLA5 reporters. But many times I saw officers in regular riot gear, i.e., not in HazMat suits, dismantling tents and arresting folks on site.

If the biohazards were as big a threat as you imply, why were officers in regular riot-gear uniforms on site?

I can only infer that the OP is correct in her implication that the presence of HazMat clad forces was to serve primarily a propaganda purpose. See my post #132 for why the propaganda purpose may completely backfire.

Edited for clarity.

[Dreamer Tatum]

158. It amazes me the extent to which people here care what others think.

So the cops showed up in hazmat suits. So? Is that going to alter anyone's perception of OWS? Probably not.
Ultimately, who the hell cares?

[coalition_unwilling]

159. The OP's thesis is that the LAPD's use of HazMat served a

propaganda purpose to turn the Occupiers at OLA into the 'Other' so that they could more easily be demonized and thereby marginalized.

Now you may take issue with the OP's thesis, as is your perogative. But if you accept her thesis, don't you care about demystifying propaganda when you recognize it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

162. As a former health care worker

who actually dealt with this crap for ten years I get it.

If this was the reason why is it that EVERY OTHER DEPARTMENT has not done that... or why was it that many of the officers CLEARING both arrestees and trash were NOT wearing those suits?

Care to connect brain cells here? This is a classic in creating THE OTHER. And it might not affect your perception of OWS, but it is designed to do exactly that.

Oh and I am glad you use gloves, given the CHEMICALS we use to clean toilet these days, please do add splash protection to your eyes. NO, I am not kidding, unless you use a more natural chemical... like seventh generation.

[Throd]

165. You're overthinking this.

I used to live in downtown Long Beach, CA. Every weekend I would don gloves, boots and a particle mask to clean all the human feces, garbage, used hypodermic needles, crack pipes, liquor bottles, clothing, and god-knows-what else from the alley that ran behind my house. Next week would always greet me with a fresh crop o' crap. Taking simple precations to protect one's self doesn't seem as conspiratorial to me as it does to you.

After reading this thread it appears that you are overly emotionally invested in OWS and percieve many benign comments or questions as attacks on the movement by enemies or idiots.

[nadinbrzezinski]

166. Well it may not

but there were no needles or crap.

And if I am over thinking this, why are witness reporting cops NOT in tivek suits, reportedly removed dirty demonstrators and also cleared tents?

The US has a history of this creation of the other when we have social movements appear that challenge the current social order. That is a fact jack and you can take that to the bank,

[SlimJimmy]

195. +1

[Rex]

207. Not the same thing, you are comparing apples to oranges

but you knew that going in...

[blkmusclmachine]

168. They were afraid of pepper-spraying themselves. Or whatever other noxious chemicals the PD had.

Obvious.

[defendandprotect]

169. kick

[yawnmaster]

170. There is much theatre. On both sides. eom

[nadinbrzezinski]

171. I guess that theater includes

A swollen wrist from that meeting bean bag fired from shotgun.

Oh the moulage I tell you, magnificent!

You will have to go to FDL to get that though, since embedded media has not reported on those injuries.

[Ignis]

175. K&R

The first thing I thought of when I heard about the hazmat suits was the dehumanization involved.

It's VERY important to the 1% and their lackeys that the MSM has all the ammo it needs to paint OWS as The Other. But thanks to heroes like Scott Olsen and other members of VFP, I have some hope it won't work.

[October]

193. All I keep hearing about is how they left behind 30 tons of garbage...

It's all over the Internet, on FB, emails, etc.

I was in NY today applauding the union marchers on their walk to Union Square. There weren't a lot of people lining the street, but there were a lot of marchers!!! A cop told me and my adult daughter we had to move (we were on the sidewalk) because we were blocking the flow of traffic. I stared in disbelief... There I was trying to teach my 21-year-old daughter about how things SHOULD be -- pointing out the hovering helicopters, the fact that there was a gang of cops everywhere you turned, barricades all along Broadway and encircling the public park at Union Square... Well, the police officer must've been bored. There was nothing for them to do -- so they decided to pick on two women. How odd. I think my daughter got the message.

[Odin2005]

197. Calling your opponents dirty and filthy is step one of Dehumanization.

[bl968]

205. Openess is the answer

What the protesters should have done was stop attacking the media who were down there trying to cover the protests, then they needed to invite the media down to give them as much coverage as possible. If you have to worry about being seen in a news photo or on TV, perhaps you shouldn't have been doing whatever it was that you were embarrassed about being caught doing. If the government's meme is dirty camps, invite photographers and videographers to tour the camps, letting people see these are not dirty and disgusting places as the politicians are claiming. Unless presented with evidence otherwise, people will always believe what the government tells them.