Religion and last night's memorial

[Ineeda]

I'm not a religious person but IMO, exactly the right notes were hit for the country and, particularly, for the audience. It started with the Native American sacred ritual (about which I heard a Faux commentator say 'it was weird'.) There were enough references to God to satisfy the most devout, but not so many as to offend non-believers. The reading by Napolitano from the Old Testament was certainly a nod to Jews (like Gabby Giffords) but not un-Christian. Holder's reading from the New Testament and President Obama's references, especially to Job, completed an ecumenical triangle. Brilliant!

[MindPilot]

1. I thought there was a little too much bible reading.

Surely in all the world's great literature you can find some inspirational quotes someplace other that the Christian scripture.

[Myrina]

2. I'd prefer if my elected officials, being paid with my tax money, left religion out

... of their speeches. There were many other literary quotes they could have used without going Biblical on us.

I was not pleased.

[seabeyond]

4. it was not a political speech, it was a memorial. nt

[Fumesucker]

8. It was a speech by the leading politician of the day..

It was a memorial but it was also a political speech, the two aren't automatically mutually exclusive.

[seabeyond]

9. at a memorial.... not tough concept and really, the essense of the speech is over looked bothered

bringing religion/spirituality into the speech. native american prayer... pretty cool

[justiceischeap]

5. Yet I'm sure the folks that hold religion dear and vote Dem, appreciated it

I'm about as anti-religion as one can get but politics is all about compromise and pandering and as I just wrote in another thread, this was a political moment last night, not just a healing speech. President Obama had to touch ALL of his potential voters 'cause he is gearing up to run for reelection and it couldn't come at a better time.

I agree, as a taxpayer, I too would prefer my elected officials leave religion out of politics but that boat sailed long ago. So now I just tune that shit out--I really tried to listen to Neapolitan (I know that's not really her last name) but at some point my hearing started turning down and before I knew it, the President of the University was back on introducing Holder and as soon as he started reading from the Bible, next thing I knew the President of the University was introducing the President. Funny how that works.

[Ineeda]

10. Agree in theory

I cringed when Napolitano started to speak, thinking exactly the same thing. But on further reflection, I realized that I was probably in the minority, and this event was for the entire country, of which most subscribe to one form of 'faith' or another. Unfortunately, in this political climate, the President would have been vilified for not including religious references and that would have drawn all the attention. Despite my personal preference, which are the same as yours, I think it was masterful.
BTW, I'm petitioning our city council to refrain from opening every council meeting with a prayer for the exact reason you cite.

[cbdo2007]

12. Then you should only vote for people who are not religious.

Which is why we'll never have an Athiest President.

[Xenotime]

42. What happened to separation of church and state?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

3. the amount of religious 'content' at a memorial service

and the kind, should be about the deceased and no one should give two rips about the 'country' or whoever else might be listening. if you are concerned about such things, you are not memorializing the person...you are having a rally.

sP

[el_bryanto]

6. Well Obama's presense and participation implies that it's not just a

memorial for the people there. I didn't know any of the people there and their deaths won't affect me in any way that I can see. And yet I feel sorrow at their passing because of how they left. I don't know if that makes this a rally, but if it does it was probably what was needed.

Bryant

[ProdigalJunkMail]

7. i have no problem with it being a rally

just call it such and dispense with the religiosity. let each thing be what it is and not clouded under the guise of some misnomer.

sP

[el_bryanto]

11. There's no law against religion, you just shouldn't be publically religious. n/t

[ProdigalJunkMail]

14. why not? you can be publicly religious if you want

but calling something a memorial service should memorialize the victim(s) and nothing more...you wanna hold a rally? knock yourself out. but why call something a memorial service when you are clearly being political? just call it a 'healing rally' and be done with it...

sP

[el_bryanto]

15. I think i've seen this argument around the conservative boards today

and had it thrown at me by a conservative friend.

At any rate, you don't control the words memorial services; they can do whatever they like. If the families come out and condemn the President than you will have a point (and I mean direct families, because I imagine Conservatoid reporters are out digging into every root of the family trees to find one relative who dissapproves of the President). In which case that is a pity, particularly if the families made their objections to the Presidents appearance known ahead of time.

I thought it was a masterful speech, personally. Thoughtful, compassionate, paying a large amount of tribute to the victims while still being a Presedential speech.

Bryant

[ProdigalJunkMail]

16. your subtlety is noted

and it was a great political speech...

sP

[madmom]

39. From what I understand this was ..

billed by the university as a "celebration of life and solidarity" NOT a memorial service. The media are the ones who dubbed it a memorial service.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

41. if that is true then more power to 'em

all i have heard it called was a memorial...but i try to avoid media as much as i can...it was being called a memorial here...

sP

[Nye Bevan]

13. People who hate religion should avoid memorial services

It's fairly normal for religion to be a part of these events.

[AspenRose]

18. Well...

That should go without saying, but... :shrug: for around here I'm not really surprised.

[Bill McBlueState]

20. People who don't believe in any gods

have the same needs for closure and reflection as others. Demanding that they take a "love it or leave it" approach to memorial services that are infused with references to the supernatural is pretty insensitive.

[Stuckinthebush]

35. +1

Thank you

[progressoid]

17. I noticed that the Univ Pres did NOT say "God Bless America" at the end of the memorial.

That was refreshing.

[Nye Bevan]

22. Wow. Six people are dead. Fourteen are wounded. A member of Congress has been shot in the head.

And you came away from watching the memorial service feeling "refreshed" because it did not end with the phrase "God Bless America".

The mindset of the DU Devout Atheists is..... interesting.

[progressoid]

27. Huh? This thread is about religion during the memorial right?

So you backhandedly accuse me of being insensitive because I made a comment pertinent to the topic of the thread? Maybe I should have taken a picture of my wife and I crying during the Presidents' speech to prove I'm worthy of giving my opinion.

I'm not sure what a devout atheist is, but I'm pretty sure I'm not one. What I am is weary of everyone puking out "God Bless America" as if there were no other way to end a speech.

[Lucian]

19. "But not so many as to offend non-believers."

I'm a non-believer and I got offended by it. I had to turn it off because I felt like I was sitting in church on Sunday. They didn't have to put so much fucking religion in it. They were only doing it to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

[Nye Bevan]

21. I guess not offending the delicate sensibilities of atheists was not at the top of the priority list

when the memorial service was planned. Maybe you should write a letter to the victims' families with your complaints about the service. Perhaps they will send you a letter of apology.

[Lucian]

25. So my point was valid then.

"Lowest common denominator" indeed.

[Ineeda]

23. It's good you had your remote, then.

I, for one, looked beyond my personal preferences to see the bigger picture.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nye Bevan]

26. YES. It really sucks that now my son can stay on my health insurance until he is 26.

Damn that Obama for "shafting" me.

[Lucian]

28. Oooh, anecdotal evidence.

I love those. :eyes:

[Nye Bevan]

34. And "Obama shafted each and every one of us" is *not* "anecodatal"?

Love it. :eyes:

[Lucian]

46. You're an idiot.

Seriously.

[Nye Bevan]

47. That's also anecdotal (nt).

[LanternWaste]

43. Or philosophy, or politics, or any other man-made construct which

"They didn't have to put so much fucking religion in it...."

Or philosophy, or politics, or any other man-made construct which exists nowhere but our own imaginations and have no place at a memorial service... unless of course one feel that their own imaginary, man-made, imaginary philosophies and beliefs are more valid than those of others (but from the little I know, that's how a lot of wars get started...)

[InvisibleTouch]

29. It's a tricky balancing act, to be sure.

I'm not without a certain "spiritual" set of beliefs, but I don't believe in "god" as defined by organized religion, and for the longest time I would be offended, or at least put off a bit, by reference to "God" in any manner of discourse or writings. Finally I came to the conclusion that what others write as "God," I could translate for myself into something closer to my own outlook, and accept that we were saying at least somewhat of the same thing. For someone who holds no "mystical" belief whatsoever, "God" might be translated as "nature" or "the human psyche," or some other more left-brained concept.

It also must be remembered that President Obama does have a belief in "God" as defined by an aspect of organized religion, and I'm a big advocate of respecting one another's belief systems, even if they don't match our own - as long as we're not trying to force one another to think as we do. So he was addressing the tragedy from the viewpoint of his own belief system, while still reaching out to and respecting those that hold different beliefs. The prevalence of mostly Judeo-Christian symbolism addresses the plain fact that *most* of the people in his audience probably held some variant of those beliefs - but he also acknowledged others. So, good on him for negotiating that slippery slope, while still demonstrating the quiet conviction of his own worldview.

[Ineeda]

30. Well said and exactly my point. Thanks. n/t

[cbdo2007]

36. Good post!!

I'm a Christian for the most part, so the President referring to the Bible and God don't bother me, but I sure wish more people at DU would look at things the way you do regarding Religion and politics.

[kwolf68]

31. I am NOT religious

And am very hostile toward any merging of state and religion, but I also don't mind people who pray and look to metaphysical beings in the sky for comfort either.

Put it this way, President Obama saying a Christian prayer last night won't bring down the republic.

[oldlib]

32. The Indian Invocation

was not needed. His presentation was too long and not really understandable. I'm not against Indians, I was raised with a number as friends, I just thought that it was a poor way to initiate the proceedings.

[Ineeda]

33. I agree it was too long

but I preferred it to an equally long xian minister or priest's invocation or prayer, which would have inappropriately ignored Gabby's faith. The historical ethnicity of the location also made it relevant. It was sort of strange but faith-neutral.

[madmom]

40. "The Indian Invocation was not needed. " according to who? I and many I know thought it

was great and understandable. So I guess that balances things, huh?

[cynatnite]

37. I'm an atheist and religious references at these things never bother me...

I expect it and if people find comfort with it, that's fine.

I agree...it struck the right tone.

[Nye Bevan]

44. I wish more DU atheists had your attitude (nt)

[cynatnite]

45. Far as I know most DU atheists here do share the same attitude for the most part. n/t

[Puzzledtraveller]

38. I have always

been areligious, if I may make up a word. So lastnights religious overtones were like water off a ducks back to me. I'm okay until someone starts to trying to convert me, convert from what I don't know, but you get what I mean.