An observation of a Swiss businessman on hiring Americans

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

In my work I deal extensively with both US companies operating abroad and foreign companies operating in the US. And one of the things I enjoy the most is dealing with the transplanted management adjusting to the absurdities of day to day life and doing business in this silly country. This can be anything from helping them find an apartment, get a cellphone or getting them home after poorly conceived Amtrak journeys, this happens quite a bit by the way...

In this case our lawyers were preparing employment contracts for about half a dozen people a Swiss company intended to hire in Los Angeles. I asked the guy how their recruiting was going and what he said alarmed me, not because it was unbelievable but the way he described it. This man had been with the UN in Bosnia and he said that the only experience he could compare it to was debriefing refugees. In Bosnia he was to identify individuals who should either be interviewed by war crimes investigators, investigated themselves or had medical needs that necessitated immediate evacuation to the EU.

He said that the edge that came off most of the candidates was unsettling to him and no matter how confident or outgoing or friendly an interviewee was many of them displayed the same subtle body language and speech ticks he had come to recognize in refugees fifteen years ago.

He said he might have expected to see desperate and traumatized people in Detroit but didn’t expect to see this among professionals in California, especially not after having worked in California during the .com years. One of the candidates who is currently employed he described as “shell shocked”, another volunteered that she “just doesn’t take holidays”.

I have heard European managers make various flippant observations about their American employees workaholic tendencies which they just find strange. Including one unfortunate episode where a manager replied to an email sent on a Sunday with “Go home and screw your wife or I am going to do it for you.” Another European manager compared American employees to dating somebody with a ton of baggage from an abusive relationship. This was just the first time any of the Europeans made their observations so striking.

[ZombieHorde]

1. That is a really interesting observation. nt

[CreekDog]

173. It's not surprising --the penalty for not getting or keeping a job is sometimes death

or what appears to be the threat of anyway.

if you wonder why Americans are so deer in the headlights about their employment --well not having a job or not having the right one can prevent you from getting:

1) medical care
2) food
3) shelter

in short --LIFE.

(and that's wrong, and it's something many other wealthy countries have figured out is wrong)

[TheDebbieDee]

176. I'm kicking this whole thread just because of this post!

Having been unemployed three times in the last 9 years, I can totally identify with your healthcare/food/shelter dilemma.

[w0nderer]

194. so true, so concise, horrible topic but oh so well put

that's exactly what it's like
gotta go to work, i'm sick but i'll go anyway
i've got a broken rib, but i'll carry and stack 40 pound items anyway

compared to, i'll take a week off at 25-50% of pay and heal up a bit
and not worry about loosing my job ( and getting a professional taping of ribs
not just paying for the xray and evaluation and then taping em myself)

still i've seen people 'work' the system in europe, and paid the price for them
(having to pick up their slack as they milk the system)
both systems have weaknesses, somewhere between greenland and iceland is where i think it'd be good
(part US part Euro system)
more protections than American system, less protections for people not doing their job than Euro system

[ProgressIn2008]

255. Yes, this is the crux of it. I'm impatient with job-shaming Americans

for their relationship to work. "Oh, just take a European vacation and get your head right about your work." How condescending; I tend to hear it from the privileged (and a lot of them self-professed liberals, where I live, actually). People are workaholics because they're frightened. And the tragedy is: many, many people have good reason to be frightened. Even if they don't consciously admit this fact to themselves, on some level they're aware that their social standing is ephemeral -- and that this is not merely a question of status, but one of survival. A couple of blows of bad luck, and you're not only downwardly mobile, but poof. You slip through the cracks. I've seen it too many times. An illness or injury, a divorce, a layoff, and it all spirals. Deeply embedded in the American ideology is the idea that somehow, the person deserves his fate or simply didn't work hard enough.

It's an acknowledgement that the American way of life is a fantasy, without safe foundation and with dire consequences if you skid off the road.

[JDPriestly]

285. Yes. CreekDog, you are so right.

[yardwork]

310. Reccing this comment.

[fascisthunter]

323. this is reality here in the US...

and it does no one any good. In the short term, it makes a few very rich, but in the end it destroys a country from within.

[Little Star]

2. Very telling. Americans are traumatized about jobs....

They are traumatized when looking for a job or trying to keep a job.

I worry so about my children and grandchildren. When I was in my working years I never worried about getting, having or keeping a job. I never personally knew anyone else who worried about it either. Maybe it was because I lived in Massachusetts and there were plenty of jobs and plenty of worker protections even if your job was not a union job.

[The Backlash Cometh]

8. They've been told that they're just not good enough for so long, that they're

beginning to believe it.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JDPriestly]

85. I think itis anti-employer, not anti-worker, and what in the world is anti-UAW about it.

I thought they were particularly talking about lawyers. They aren't in the UAW are they?

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

95. It turns out...

The only way one can show support for American workers is by worshiping certain Fortune 500 corporations and their management in roughly the same way tween girls admire Justin Beiber. I know, I was surprised too.

Basically, when a GM executive says something stupid or Boeing announces their latest outsourcing debacle we have to respond like this and heap them with praise... or we hate the UAW or something and wipe our asses with the American flag.

[Romulox]

172. And here it is: the "hidden" anti-Labor message!

This poster couldn't restrain himself from trashing workers if he wanted to. It's his raison-d'etre! :hi:

[whathehell]

195. Absurd.

I not only don't "worship" Fortune 500 companies, I actively volunteer my time

and money to labor unions and donate to to progressive organizations that support them.

..Maybe you could do the same.


My father was a union organizer, for fuck's sake.

[amborin]

250. Swiss corporations are so wonderful :eyes roll: such as Nestle, for starters:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Nestl%C3%A9

[tama]

274. Duh

Swiss corporations are just as wonderfull as other corporations. That is not what this thread is about. And swiss people are workaholics, at least by european standards - that's what my girlfriend who is half swiss tells me. But also that is not what this thread is about.

[Enthusiast]

111. Hey! Answer post #89! nt

[bulloney]

177. I think it tells more about how Americans have been conditioned

into believing they're just a piece of material that can be discarded at any time regardless of how competent and productive they are.

When they reach a point to where their compensation exceeds a threshold, they get pitched to the unemployment line. I recently had a neighbor who had been dismissed at a food processing company. Before that, he was dismissed at a chemical company. You can't prove it, but they sure look like cases of letting him go because of his age and years of experience with the company. He had good evaluations. Nobody led him to believe he was performing to where he could be let go at either job.

He later finds work at another food processing company and they let him go just before he would have become eligible for the company health insurance.

If you don't think repeated experiences like this get inside someone's head, you're mistaken. I know many people who are aged 50 and older who are scared to death of losing their jobs because they've seen how hard it is to get hired elsewhere at that age. Employers don't look at work ethic and experience. All they see is that they can hire younger people at a lower wage and chances are, they don't have health issues associated with older workers.

Interesting observation in the OP. It's interesting that it is fairly unique to American workers.

But this is Amurika. We're the best damned nation on the planet! Just ask us!

[Darth_Kitten]

178. Not at all....

It seems to be on the side of the American worker. :(

[AlbertCat]

165. They are traumatized when looking for a job or trying to keep a job.

A job?

2 or 3 jobs...


Remember Bush saying.. after a woman at a town hall said "I work 3 jobs"... "That's great!"

No Dubya, it ain't great!

So it's been going on for decades. When I was a kid, most everyone's family I knew had one job, and still had a car and a house.

[w0nderer]

anyone who actually lived through the 48-70ies...

could one really:
own a house (small but still)
a car (not the most expensive)
radio or tv (today that'd be computer and tv but the prices probably have fallen a lot)
have a child
some form of medical, dental, vision and pension
on one pay check from a 'normal' job (not a top exec or higher up management)?

i'm sure 2 would have made it easier

but today 1 paycheck..unless it's a really big one just won't cut it

any party aiming to "go back to the good ole days " for those days of 90% top tax and ability to have a family on one paycheck?
and succeeding is pretty much guaranteed the next few decades

[whathehell]

332. I'm one of those people

and the answer is "yes" to all of the questions.

[Snotcicles]

3. Just one more thing Americans can get mad and defensive about. nt

[Divernan]

4. Try telling some DUers that life is much better in the EU & they freak out!

The most important educational advantage you can give your college age kids is to set them up to study, volunteer, work or in some manner, live abroad, particularly in the EU for at least 3 or 4 months. Observing different political, social & economic systems gives them an invaluable perspective with which to judge what transpires in the US.

[eShirl]

12. +1

[whathehell]

15. When you begin with an insult...and no, I don't mean "observation" I mean "insult"

it tends to be received less than positively and please, many DUers have done

exactly what you're admonishing them to do, myself included,

and they still dislike the snark..Sorry.

[Divernan]

17. Don't say sorry when you're not sorry. Stand proud for your opinion!

One really weakens one's position when one starts out with an apology. (Something I learned in Trial Advocacy/Settlement Negotiation classes about presenting one's argument or stating one's position.)

I truly and repeatedly have observed DUers who are American become outraged, i.e., freak out, at any comparison with lifestyles/circumstances in another country in which the USA is not "NUMBER ONE!"

Statistics from the World Health Organization, statistics on average number of vacation/holidays, lists of required employee benefits, etc.

Those are factual observations and not insults.

[truedelphi]

22. Simply watching recent The Daily Show explains a lot. For

instance, recent episodes have Jon Stewart making observations that include one scathing report after another. Including one report that shows in terms of income disparity, The USA is only slightly ahead of nations like Rwanda!

[Divernan]

40. Oh that crazy Jon Stewart. He's "hyperbolic" (sarcasm), like me!

Hey! I'm in good company!

[whathehell]

28. My bad...I imagined you could perceive sarcasm.

but since you lean toward giving "directives", let me give you one:

Don't get hyperbolic with words like "outraged" and "freak out" when people

are simply annoyed...It really weakens one's position in an argument.

[JDPriestly]

86. You are so right, Divernan.

It's an eye-opener.

[SoCalDem]

113. Our youngest went to college in Florence, Italy and it was a REAL culture shock for him

when he first got there.. Shopping for food every day was a big revelation for him. Their refrigerator in the apartment was super small.

He also discovered REAL cheese and real pizza..and learned to love getting around on buses & by bicycle.

They had eurail-passes and traveled all over Europe every chance they got..

the experience made him a very laid-back person that he is today:)..it also instilled a love of travel in him. He and a friend follow World Cup and went to Germany for it.. He desperately wanted to go to S.Africa but his wife had other ideas, since it was only a few months after they got married:)

When he got married, they spent a week in Florence before they took a Greek Isle cruise & spent a week in Croatia at the end of the trip. It was not a cheap honeymoon, but not a lot more than some of their friends spent on trips to Hawaii or Caribbean cruises. Next month they are headed to Rio (she's going on business for 3 weeks & he's joining her for the last week of her trip( He's actually "scouting" for the next World Cup :evilgrin:

[Quantess]

138. LOL @ "real pizza" in Europe

Okay, okay, Florence Italy, I bet, has amazingly delicious pizza. But don't go looking for "real pizza" in Sweden. They have the weirdest pizza here, with bizzarre toppings, and you eat it with a knife & fork, of course. :)
But you are right about the dairy products, though. They taste better, and the cheese is better, in general. I have yet to visit anywhere in Europe that does not have a better selection of cheese than the USA.

Good for your son & his wife! It is good to visit other countries.

[w0nderer]

215. rotflmao @bizarre toppings, so true

and getting it cut to slices is a special request
it's rare to get a delivery

[Divernan]

216. "Pizza" in Tortola, BVI

Crust made of Bisquick, tomato sauce, cheddar cheese! No spices! Truly horrible. However, the sea food is great!

[JDPriestly]

286. I think that the rules about pasteurization are different in Europe.

Cheeses need to be made of milk that allows bacteria to grow in them I think.

When we lived in a German village, I bought milk directly from the dairy farmer who lived across the street. It was not pasteurized. I left it out on the counter and it turned to the most delicious sour milk ever.

I don't know whether you could get that kind of milk here anywhere.

[Quantess]

296. I heard there's a "bootleg" cheese that has been deemed unsanitary because

larvae are intentionally added to the cheese during fermentation. But you can still secretly buy it, under the table. People actually seek out this larvae-eaten cheese, because the texture is a certain delicacy.

I can't remember which country. I think it was France.

[w0nderer]

299. italy/sardinia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casu_marzu

[Quantess]

301. Thanks! Interesting.

Some people clear the larvae from the cheese before consuming while others do not.
:puke:

[w0nderer]

303. from a survival perspective

it's extra protein
from a health perspective, maggots are used to 'eat clean' wounds in classic bush medicine and are actually researched in the western countries for the same purpose (much like leeches were discovered to help in hand and finger surgery)


from a food perspective when i have a choice i'll take my cheese with out maggots please


welcome, hope you weren't having breakfast :-p

[JDPriestly]

321. Sounds very French, but I have never heard of that before.

[Divernan]

140. My kids had tremendous experiences on their own abroad.

The oldest spent a high school summer as an exchange student to Ireland and returned there for three years of college, getting an honors degree from UC Dublin (tuition for ALL students back then, not just nationals, was under $600 a year!) She shared rental housing w/ other Irish girls, traveled all around the country playing soccer on the college team & traveled w/other econ. students to visit the European Parliament, the banking industry on Fleet Street, London, etc. I recall her observing that the Dubliners did not accumulate "stuff" like Americans. Families had one small car, one set of china, etc., but traveled throughout the year - Rome for Easter, the Mediterranean isles/beaches in the summer, etc., spent their money on books and going to the theatre.

My son spent a post-grad year working as an rain-forest environmentalist on 2 remote islands in Indonesia (after a 2 month crash program in Yogyakarta to learn one of the basic Indonesian languages). Very primitive living conditions living with people one generation away from headhunters at one island. A local Catholic priest explained to him how the ancient ritual of animal sacrifice had been absorbed into the Christian religion by missionaries. A people with little more than a few pieces of clothing, a few basic tools and a cooking pot, who lived on one room houses built on stilts inside an inactive volcano with a cloud forest growing around the rim, cried for my son when they saw a man who had no wife, no children, no family. The thought of living like that was tragic beyond their imagining. He was only the second white person who had ever visited them. The first was an airplane spotter during WW II. They treated him as an honored guest on his first visit. Some years later when he went to Indonesia for a Coral Reef Conference, he returned to their island to visit them again. They greeted him with joy as a long lost son.

My youngest spent a summer studying in Bremen, Germany, and lived with a single Mom with a severely handicapped daughter - learned a lot of things besides German there, including the government's social safety network for families like her landlady's. On weekends she traveled with a Eurail pass to visit friends/expats in London, France, Ireland, Belgium & Holland.

My kids all played high school and/or college soccer & 2 of them (then in their 40's) went to the World Cup games in Germany, as did your son. They particularly loved Berlin and urged me to go there, which I did, and loved it as well.

We as a family were able to handle this pretty damn cheaply back then - couldn't do it in today's economy.

[NJCher]

168. your kids are going to have a big problem in the future

With backgrounds like that, how on earth are they going to appreciate people like Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton? We're talking American cultural staples here.

I just heard that TV is going to spend four hours on Kim Kardashian's wedding. Your children will not appreciate the significance of this broadcast, will they?

And you call yourself a parent?


Cher

[Divernan]

200. LOL! Damn straight!

Elsewhere on this thread I was told that a photo of John Goodman used by the OP as an avatar is actually a photo of John Edwards! But that poster was absolutely serious! Or perhaps series!

[amborin]

249. don't you love anti-union Nestle corp, when it was Swiss?

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Nestl%C3%A9

[XemaSab]

349. Name one country

that doesn't have an evil corporation somewhere in it.

[awoke_in_2003]

257. reading your post, this song popped into my head

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgqVCJpRqWQ

[Divernan]

306. Absolutely - the effects of travel. (My Dad used to sing that song - love it)

People who travel to foreign shores and really experience and observe different cultures, are never the same in their attitude toward their home countries. They get perspective which leads to insightful evaluation.
Here are some of my favorite quotes about travel:

EFFECTS OF TRAVEL

"The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page." -- St. Augustine

"I have found out that there ain't no surer way to find out whether you like people or hate them than to travel with them." -- Mark Twain

"Like all great travelers, I have seen more than I remember, and remember more than I have seen." - Benjamin Disraeli

"We live in a wonderful world that is full of beauty, charm and adventure. There is no end to the adventures we can have if only we seek them with our eyes open." -- Jawaharal Nehru

"A traveler without observation is a bird without wings." — Moslih Eddin Saadi

"All journeys have secret destinations of which the traveler is unaware." — Martin Buber

"A man of ordinary talent will always be ordinary, whether he travels or not; but a man of superior talent (which I cannot deny myself to be without being impious) will go to pieces if he remains forever in the same place." — Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart

"Don't tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have traveled." — Mohammed

"Traveling tends to magnify all human emotions." — Peter Hoeg

"The journey is my home." — Muriel Rukeyser

"To awaken alone in a strange town is one of the pleasantest sensations in the world." —Freya Stark

"Our happiest moments as tourists always seem to come when we stumble upon one thing while in pursuit of something else." — Lawrence Block

"Two roads diverged in a wood and I – I took the one less traveled by." — Robert Frost

"Once you have traveled, the voyage never ends, but is played out over and over again in the quiestest chambers. The mind can never break off from the journey." — Pat Conroy

"I should like to spend the whole of my in life traveling abroad, if I could anywhere borrow another life to spend afterwards at home." — William Hazlitt

"Hitler didn't travel. Stalin didn't travel. Saddam Hussein never traveled. They didn't want to have their orthodoxy challenged." — Howard Gardner

Travel Quotes: FROM LITERATURE AND VARIOUS WRITERS

"Do you think it's so snobbish, to want to see something besides one's fellow citizens abroad?" — Dodsworth by Sinclair Lewis

Clay lies still, but blood’s a rover / Breath’s aware that will not keep. / Up, lad: when the journey’s over there’ll be time enough to sleep.” – A. E. Housman

“Half the fun of the travel is the aesthetic of lostness.” – Ray Bradbury

“Bizarre travel plans are dancing lessons from God.” – Kurt Vonnegut

“We wander for distraction, but we travel for fulfillment.” – Hilaire Belloc

[smirkymonkey]

320. I just returned from a vacation in London and burst into tears

as soon as I got off the plane. (I have traveled quite a bit, but England has a certain pull for me.) I just miss it so much. The change in the energy of going from London back to NYC is striking.

London seems so relaxing, even though it's a large city - New York feels like there is a jackhammer constantly going off in my head. I do feel traumatized in this country.

[XemaSab]

350. I would love to travel more

but when I have money I have no vacation time, and when I have vacation time I have no money.

[whathehell]

278. When was "back then" in Ireland?....Certainly sounds like "pre-tiger" days

I lived in Ireland...Trust me -- They got very much into "stuff" themselves,

and are completely bust at the moment.

[Divernan]

300. Yup. Pre Celtic tiger.Not completely bust -Irish still have health care/unemployment safetynet.

There's a new wave of Irish expats returning from East Coast USA to Ireland.

And the Irish have the strength of character, the sense of humor, and the well educated, intellectual resources to adapt to and overcome adversity.

[whathehell]

307. I believe you're a tad behind..

That "new wave of expats returning from East Coast USA to Ireland" been there, done that

and have now returned. The Tiger phase is now belly up and they're coming back again...I know one personally

They're having some big social problems as well...About half of all pregnant women in Dublin are unmarried

and, unfortunately, there's been a lot of young suicides.

BTW, I've lived and studied in Ireland and am of Irish descent so I don't need the "sales job" on

the Irish...Too bad you're not as confident and "glowing" in your description of your fellow citizens.

[harmonicon]

116. I agree completely.

I first went to Europe on a trip with a friend when I was 17. His brother had moved to London on some kind of temporary post-college visa. We stayed with him awhile and then travelled around. What we did for purposes of fun, chasing euro-girls, and drinking, turned out to be incredibly educational.

[Scuba]

135. +1,000

[bulloney]

183. Most of the conservatives I know hardly travel out of state, let alone to other countries.

In addition, they spend a lot of time listening to RW radio that conditions them into believing that all other countries are backwards and beneath our dignity. By listening to them, you would think other nations still resort ot witch doctors and leaches for health care.

[Divernan]

201. I know some who have never traveled outside their county, and proud of it!

[fascisthunter]

329. it's all about fear of the uncertain and the unknown

My mother's friend never left the country until two years ago... she finally went somewhere and she was amazed. I felt bad for her, because I think she realized the shit she was brought up to believe about Europe in general was propaganda.

[whathehell]

282. Project much, LOL?...Tell some DUers that Europe's not Nirvana...and THEY "freak out"!

[fascisthunter]

325. um no.... don't think I have ever seen anyone claim it was Nirvana

[whathehell]

331. um no. don't think I've ever seen anyone "freak out" as opposed to simply disagreeing either.

[fascisthunter]

335. like you have up and down this thread? Yes, you need to chill man

[whathehell]

338. Ummm..No.

As I said, Ignore is your friend.;)

[fascisthunter]

324. so true... but very hard to do

I was fortunate to visit Europe since I was a child, to be exposed to different cultures and different points of view. People have a collective understanding that they all are part of one nation, therefore they take care of each other and don't make an issue of it.

I was able to see and learn, yet so many here are not able to...

[whathehell]

354. Try telling some DUers whose travel/living experiences in the EU are less than yours that

you don't genuflect to Europe and watch THEM freak out.

P.S. For maximum impact, reveal that you

have right of return status but choose to

stay here....That's a real head-exploder.;-)

[supernova]

5. If I could emigrate out of this loony bin

of a country, I would.

Europe is much more my style.

I'm not surprised your colleague finds us a bit abused.

Both the SO and I have discussed France, but I would also enjoy Switzerland or Germany.

[whathehell]

33. Give it a good try, why dontcha?

Yeah, sure you'd enjoy Switzerland and France, lol...Not Ireland,

Portugal or Greece?...Nah..They're in the same shape as we are, lol.

[supernova]

35. Have you been to Europe

or anywhere else in the developed world? Their ideas about work/life balance are light years ahead of the shitty behavior we have here.

[whathehell]

38. Several times and I've not only visited, I've lived there....

How about you?

If you're so in awe, like a number of europhiles here

of their superior "behavior", you might

want to go and live there...Just avoid

the bankrupt countries, LOl.

[Divernan]

41. So share! What was worse in the EU than in the US?

[whathehell]

44. I never said things were "worse".

[bluestate10]

119. The number of times that the US has bailed out Europe in my adult life.

Banks, the Balkans, the plunge in the Euro after it circulated for two years, funding NATO, funding the UN, funding aid to starving nations and those struck by natural disaster. There really is nothing admirable about europe, they come in after the USA has done the heavy lifting. And nation to nation, they can't agree on a fucking thing, as evidenced by their current failure to stabilize their euro-zone.

[destes]

133. The great myth............

Goes like this:
The US does all the heavy lifting for the rest of the world
The US has the most generous population in the world
The US saved the world in WWII and continues to save the world today
The rest of the world is weak and needs the US to lead politically, economically and morally

When one does enough research to find the cracks in that mythology then a new and more accurate perspective is revealed. The US is now and has always been ruled by capitalists whose religion demands profitable compensation for every endeavor. It's just that simple.

[Scuba]

136. +1

[Divernan]

142. The US entered WW II (late in the war) to protect its own interests & shores from Japan & Germany

Since WW II, US involvement/aid has come with major caveats/goals, primarily interfering in and controlling foreign governments and getting sweetheart deals for US business interests, etc.

Your claims are beyond ludicrous! The US does NOT lead politically, economically or (MOST laughable) morally.

I suggest to you that all the countries which do NOT practice rendition & torture, which do NOT invade other countries and maim and kill civilians (collateral damage) with white phosphorus & drone attacks, which do NOT infect the world economy with their unregulated financial industry/housing bubble/ collateralized debt obligations, etc.,; and which DO provide universal health care,

lead the USA in morality by a country mile!

[Flubadubya]

221. I think you misread destes' post...

Perhaps you didn't catch the header - "The great myth goes like this..." and then the list of all the "ludicrous claims".

In fact the poster avows just the opposite and is actually in agreement with you. :P

[Divernan]

226. My post was meant to support Destes' reply to Blue State 10

This is such a long thread - apologies for not being clearer.

[valerief]

232. +1000

[whathehell]

283. The US entered WWII "late", in great part because of a powerful lobby known as the American Firsters

and yes, because unlike Europe in great part, they WERE fighting another war in the Pacific..Duh.

Since they'd just fought ANOTHER European War just twenty years prior, they were a tad hesitant

to go and shed blood for yet ANOTHER European fuck up.

As for your moralizing about the "American Empire"...Yeah..Europe doesn't do that...Anymore.

They were imperialists with plenty of colonies to abuse and exploit, PRIOR to the Second World War...Hell, the Brits practically taught us everything we know.

If you lack the bucks or the guts to leave this country you clearly despise, you could at least educate yourself.

[Divernan]

302. If YOU lack "the guts" to post a profile, AND you justify imperialism,

that tells us all we need to know about you. My family's been in my home state since 1642. I plan to stay and fight the good fight for traditional Democratic values against pathetic, profit-obsessed, war mongering third way folks like you. Tell us all, how do you justify screwing over the majority of your fellow citizens to further the economic interests of corrupted politicians, the MIC and the uber wealthy?

[whathehell]

305. Honey, I don't lack a thing...And please SHOW me where I have "justified imperialism"

or where and HOW I'm "justifying screwing over the majority of my "fellow citizens" to further the interests of corrupted politicians, the MIC and the

uber wealthy"...Again, you're confusing a LACK of hatred for America for a lack of progressive values.

I'm not "planning" on fighting the good fight, I HAVE been doing it -- When did you "plan" on getting involved, when your trust fund ran out?

I'm doing it and, like most here, HAVE been doing it -- Not by weakening the incentive to fight for the country

by verbally shitting on it, as you do, but by being ACTIVE, donating money, phone banking, canvassing neighborhoods, acting as a precinct committeeman..WTF

do YOU do, but genuflect to Europe while denigrating and bitching about how INFERIOR this country is?

Spare me your Mayflower pedigree, dear...My father was a

fucking union ORGANIZER and so was I...What, again, are YOU doing?

[Divernan]

308. I opposed American empire building, you responded thus:

which basically says I was wrong to criticize American empire building because Europe and the UK did it before the US did. You wrote:
"As for your moralizing about the "American Empire"...Yeah..Europe doesn't do that...Anymore."

They were imperialists with plenty of colonies to abuse and exploit, PRIOR to the Second World War...Hell, the Brits practically taught us everything we know."

Query: Do you oppose Obama's expanded and new wars?

Do you believe in and support the theory of American Exceptionalism?

Do you believe that America should increase the tax on the wealthy and drastically cut the military budget prior to
increasing the age for Medicare participation?

If you can control yourself to stop the hysterically inaccurate assumptions about my education, political activity, personal wealth, etc., and answer these questions, it would greatly improve the tone and quality of your posts.

FYI:I'm a union member myself. No trust fund, have worked on every Democratic presidential campaign since JFK, and am a Democratic elected local government official. And one of my grandfathers was one of the coal miners fighting the good fight to organize the UMW in Mount Olive, Illinois. Google Mother Jones and Mount Olive for that bit of history. Now it's true some of my ancestors fought in the Revolutionary War, but they were just regular privates who returned to their farms after the war.

The big difference between us is that you remain an Obama loyalist, and I have shifted my political activities to working on campaigns for progressive Democrats.

[whathehell]

311. One can certainly oppose US empire building while still knowing that we weren't the first and only.

I said all of that..It's called an accurate rendition of history.

My point being only that America has NOT been the "source of all evil" in the world...Revising history to

make EVERYTHING we do "bad" and other countries "blameless" does nothing but fuck up the record. The fact that

Europe was HEAVILY imperialist for centuries, does not mean it's "okay" for us to follow suit, but it DOES put it

in a little perspective, don't you think?...I happen to be a fan of Pat Moynihan's saying: "Everyone's

entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts".

Okay...Even though I've been here for years, have a thousand posts and have actually "answered" these questions in various posts on various threads,

I'll humor you and answer the questions on your silly "Are you a Progressive"? Test.

Query: Do you oppose Obama's expanded and new wars?....Answer: NO, and Hell no.

Do you believe in and support the theory of American Exceptionalism?...Answer: NO!

Do you believe that America should increase the tax on the wealthy and drastically cut the military budget prior to
increasing the age for Medicare participation?...Yes, and Hell Yes!

I'm coming up on Medicare age myself. As a matter of fact, I am, at this moment getting ready to demonstrate at the office of repuke congressman Dold in Lake Forest,

Illinois, a suburb of Chicago...I even have my "Tax the Billionaires" sign ready.

"If you can control yourself to stop the hysterically inaccurate assumptions about my education, political activity, personal wealth, etc., and answer these questions, it would greatly improve the tone and quality of your posts".

And if YOU can control yourself to stop YOUR "hysterically inaccurate assumptions" that I'm some kind of right wing bagger because I do NOT have a black and white

world view of "America Bad -- Rest of World Good" you would not have to give me some litmus test to realize that progressives can actually refuse revisionist

history and can actually DIFFER in certain ways without sacrificing their values.

I believe in criticizing politics and policies here, but I'm not a self-loathing American and I refuse to "trash" this country...The politics currently suck, but in my view, the country is a lot more than present day politics.

[whathehell]

276. That would be several "myths", wouldn't it?

Some being "truer" than others.

[whathehell]

203. Thank you....I wouldn't agree that there is

nothing admirable about Europe, but being more aware of their failings than I believe most here are,

I don't belittle my own country and drool whenever the word "Europe" is uttered either.

[JDPriestly]

287. I lived in Europe (four different countries) for years.

I am quite familiar with it, and I admire the fact that they protect workers' rights, have excellent social programs for ordinary people and do not have the disgusting disparity in incomes between the very, very rich and the poor that we have.

I don't like everything that Europeans do, and I have to say that one country can be very, very different from another. France and the UK, for example, are very different in terms of cultural values.

But in terms of our labor laws, we are way behind, way, way behind a country like Germany.

And the attitude of management toward labor (and as a result labor toward management) is counterproductive in our country. If we had labor laws that required employers to treat employees with respect and appreciation and to see the employee as a collaborator rather than a subject to be ruled, there would be a lot more harmony in the workplace. There would also be a lot more flexibility on both sides, both management and employees, and our economy would be healthier as would the American workers.

[amborin]

244. are you aware of the undeclass of poorly treated workers?

[LanternWaste]

313. I imagine a narrow mind will often conflate admiration and awe

I imagine a narrow mind will often conflate respect and awe, will often conflate admiration for many facets of European culture and Europhile.

I'd guess it's both simple and convenient to do so.

[whathehell]

348. I imagine a narrow mind will often conflate a sense of balance and

self-respect with being a zenophobic nationalist.

I'd guess that's both simple and convenient as well.

[fascisthunter]

327. take a chill pill and relax... you are taking nationalism to a weird height

...reminiscent of right wing uber-nationalists. The irony is, we are not allowed to improve this country because of attitudes like yours.

[whathehell]

334. You take a pill and relax...I'm not doing anything of the kind.

and you are taking defensiveness in the face of disagreement to "weird" heights indeed.

It's weird when simple refusal to genuflect to other countries while completely

trashing one's own can be characterized as reminiscent of "right wing uber-nationialism".

Please tell me what "attitudes" like mine are, beyond the above statement?...

On second thought, If you REALLY want to know, you'll check out my answers to Divernan's Progressive Checklist

Like she, you'll be surprised to find I "pass" with flying colors..Duh.

[fascisthunter]

336. yes you are.... up and down this whole thread you have overreacted

towards those who know there is a better system elsewhere, a system we all would like to see here. You take this whole thing very personal... remember, the US is not Uber Alles.

[whathehell]

337. No. One's view of another's reaction to a given topic is subjective.

What is "overreacting" to you is "appropriate" or even "under reacting" to another.

I don't need your agreement..If you don't like my posts, you might want

to remember that Ignore is your friend.:hi:

[bluestate10]

118. Nothing is holding you back.

Go to the embassy of your choice and apply for residence in it's country. Go ahead, enlighten yourself. Then once you see reality, STFU.

[a la izquierda]

134. Yikes, hostility much.

You must be an American rah-rah-siss-boom-bah type. Goody for you. Some people enjoy other perspectives.

[awoke_in_2003]

258. America #1, fuck yeah...

don't you just love some of the people here?

[Divernan]

148. Sorry things aren't going better for you. Hope things improve soon.

[Marr]

254. You could've saved a bunch of letters and just said, "luv it 'er leave it!!!"

[awoke_in_2003]

259. "Nothing is holding you back"...

I will not speak for the person you are responding to, but for many there is a big thing holding them back- money. Shit, if I had the money I would get the fuck out of the loony bin this country is becoming, if only to ensure my grandsons don't have to fight anymore rich man's wars. The only thing we are number one in is war waging, and a 3rd world nation (afghanistan) is giving as good as they are taking.

[whathehell]

279. The only people pulling the "We're number one" shit are people who seem unable

to think, or at least argue, in anything but black and white terms.

Failing to salivate at the mention of Europe, or completely disavow the US is

not the equivalent of being a flag-waving teabagger.

I suspect they realize that, but simply lack a substantive response.:eyes:

[fascisthunter]

328. Actually it is enlightening... been there

not perfect but their governments treat their own people much better there than here. It's too bad all the idiots, greedy, and the sociopathic run the show here.

[whathehell]

339. The greedy & sociopathic are running the show... Now...But it wasn't always so

and, in part, it may be because I'm older and have lived through a VERY different era,

that I am less inclined to see the country as "all bad"...I have a longer history here

than many, and yes, I think the politics now are HIDEOUS. I'm VERY concerned, frightened, even, of

the Right Wing here, who I view as a terrible threat.

I am sixty one years old and this is the WORST I've ever seen it. That being said, to me, the country is MORE than

just the current politics, or even those of the last several years...It's

other things, it's the people, the culture, the geography, and, yes, a good deal of our history....Maybe when

you've had a taste of how good this country can be, you're less inclined to dismiss it.

[fascisthunter]

340. you just overeacted to my post once again

I think you draw very extreme conclusions, that just because I like something about other countries, doesn't mean I dismiss my own(meaning the WHOLE country and everything in it)... it means I dismiss SPECIFIC things in our country... ok? We are talking about a better social system than our own.. that is a FACT!

Now does that mean I hate my own country???? Hell no... you however jump to that conclusion. As if there was no gray area... As I've said relax... people want to improve this country and pointing out specifics detriments or flaws just means that. You are taking criticism of the US to a whole other level.

As for those making statements like, "The US sucks!"... they are pissed at this country because they know the majority of people are better and deserve MORE! Ever say something to somebody that was over the top because you were pissed and venting? That's all a lot of that is.

As for loving this country, never assume I don't and no I do not dismiss the WHOLE country... that's IMPOSSIBLE. There are specific things I dislike about our system of government, Justice system, military industrial complex, the wealthy class, our private insurance industry, etc. Those are specific things I do not like in my country. Never claim that means someone hates or dismisses their country. I would be hear posting if I didn't care about it.

[whathehell]

341. You really don't understand the concept of subjectivity, do you?

Forget it.:eyes:

[fascisthunter]

342. good idea

big giant chill pill waiting for you, Mr. Meathead. Nothing will penetrate that gourd, I can tell. "USA, USA, USA!" The very mentality that is killing this country and you wear it proudly, "Thick as a Brick".

[whathehell]

345. BWHAHAHAH!

Now it's a good idea.:hi:

[whathehell]

355. Yeah, sure...

Not so thick as to fail to understand words like "subjectivity", Duh.

[CelticThunder]

6. But Obama has a plan!

[awoke_in_2003]

260. it is not just Obama...

it has been every administration since Nixon. Wall street calls the shots, DC just says "yes sir"

[sabrina 1]

7. His observations correspond with what others have observed

about Americans. The comparison has been made to 'abused spoused' also, where they go along with the abuser because they can't imagine surviving without him and have lost the spirit to fight.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

9. totally can relate. k&r

[Bucky]

10. What a bunch of a-holes. Please remind the Swiss that they friggin' invented Calvism.

So now they're getting snooty because we make something useful out of it?

[Divernan]

14. If you really believe that, you should be working right now

not posting on DU. Put in those 60 hour weeks. Ignore your family. Never take vacation. Run scared your whole damn life.

I worked at some law firms which wanted 3,000 billable hours a year. That meant working full days Saturday and 1/2 days Sunday - unless one wanted to triple bill corporate clients - which many of the senior partners did so they'd have time to play golf. Amazing how one could bill 14 hours to various clients in a single day, but never put in an appearnace in the office and play 18 holes at the Field Club.

There were other workaholics who had alcoholic wives, delinquent kids, and never wanted to retire because they were so addicted to making money they'd never developed a single other interest/activity/hobby - let alone passion.

[JDPriestly]

88. Law firms are just killers. Most Americans work too hard, but lawyers

work so hard that if they don't physically kill themselves, they at least deprive themselves of what anyone else would call life.

The actual work is great, but the hours and the stress are just murderous (at least in litigation).

[awoke_in_2003]

261. and the majority of the Swiss...

have long rejected it- unlike our dumb asses.

[whathehell]

11. A foreigner who begins an account of his time here with the phrase "in this silly country"

gets no points for objectivity..:eyes:

Maybe he should go to Portugal, Ireland or Greece if he wants to

observe "traumatized" workers -- He'd at least be closer to home

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

13. Just checking my passport here... yup, still an American.

I'm the one who said this is a silly country.

[Little Star]

16. Pay no attention to the nay sayers. Some have a hard time with

reality. :hi:

[whathehell]

23. Pay no attention to those who disagree with you, LOL

That way you can confuse "reality" with opinion.:hi:

[whathehell]

19. Thanks for clearing that up, but the effect is much the same, unfortunately.

Perhaps you are a "silly" person, or at least an ineffective

communicator, for imagining you could preface the latest "euros know best"

piece with an insult.:think:

[Name removed]

24. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Divernan]

20. Your post is a great example of American Exceptionalism

The US can police and invade and drone-attack any country it chooses, but God forbid a "foreigner" DARE to state an opinion about U.S. business practices/employees

[whathehell]

27. LOL "America sucks, Europe rocks" posts are hardly "exceptional" on this board

even when they refuse to look at the

the "trauma" closer to home in the global recession

so as to focus on Americans.

[Divernan]

39. You totally fail to comprehend the term "American exceptionalism"

It's a political/philosophical theory. American exceptionalism refers to the theory that the United States is qualitatively different from other states.

In the context of this thread, it refers to the polar opposite of how you understood it. To put it simply, it would mean NOT that, as you mistakenly understood it, to mean that "America sucks, Europe rocks", but that America is de facto better (hence the term "qualitative") than Europe.

[whathehell]

45. Not at all...It just that you totally take things much too literally, LOL

It appears that you DO have a problem in that area!

[Divernan]

48. I suggest you educate yourself re political terms for this website.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[whathehell]

208. I suggest you acquire an understanding of irony and metaphor, for this and all other websites.

[Name removed]

217. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JDPriestly]

90. Europeans have rights in the workplace that we could not imagine.

In addition, they are entitled to a lot of vacation time and just overall shorter hours than we are. They don't lose their jobs for being human.

The post is about lawyers as I understand it.

Many, perhaps most, lawyers, especially litigators, in this country are traumatized. That is all there is to it.

American workers do not have it nearly as good as do European workers. That is simply a fact.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

93. Not lawyers, these positions were IT, accounting and an office manager

The lawyers were on our side advising our client on the employment contracts.

[JDPriestly]

117. Wow!

[noiretextatique]

120. i am a traumatized Accountant

the positions i used to qualify for with an MA in Business are requiring CPAs now. people want a CPA for Staff Accountant positions, and even though i've been a Senior Accountant for over 15 years, I cannot get an interview for that title. and when i do manage to get an interview, i am usually overqualified for the $15.00/hour folks want to pay. usually the temp accounting agencies boom during bad economic times, but not this time. and even contract jobs want to pay $20.00/hr instead of the $40.00 I used to command with no problem. there are lots of part-time accounting jobs, but the expectations some employers have...there is NO WAY to get those jobs in the 10 hours a week employers are willing to pay for, so i don't even bother applying. i have pretty much given up on finding a job...i am going into a business that is doing very well in california: medical cannabis.

[quakerboy]

96. I think not

My imagination is quite able, thank you. I can envision and desire all sorts of things

[whathehell]

206. My sister was a lawyer, and she's now a judge..She's not even slightly "traumatized"

I do think the european workers have it better than most American workers..On the other

hand, they do pay for those benefits through taxes. That being said, maybe it would be better

to WORK toward better conditions here instead of pouting in envy.

[amborin]

245. yes, but even in Germany, there's a big underclass of rather poorly treated workers

the post is about how deformed American job applicants/interviewees/workers are

[whathehell]

353. You're obviously unfamiliar with the manner in which many

aforementioned "foreigners" react to an American opinion on almost anything.:eyes:

[emcguffie]

21. Maybe it's just point of view.

I'm an American, I think I'm patriotic, but now I am in despair. At the very least, I think my country is silly; at the worst, entirely dysfunctional.

My 17-year-old daughter keeps telling me she wants "to get out of this country." I don't blame her.

[Divernan]

59. Obama hadn't put the Peace Corps on the negotiating table yet.

Check out that as a possibility for your daughter. I have friends who are Peace Corps alumni, and they have a terrific national and international network to help with finding jobs after they've finished their assignments.

[druidity33]

82. Isn't the Peace Corps...

a front for budding CIA agents? Not that that isn't a decent job with benefits, and a way to see the world, but...

:shrug:

:)

[Divernan]

83. Working for the CIA has ALWAYS been an absolute barrier to being a Peace Corps Volunteer or

working for the Peace Corps in any capacity. There is also a 5 year period after one leaves the Peace Corps before one can join the CIA, and even then the Peace Corps deputy director must approve such a hire.

From the time JFK proposed the Peace Corps, the Soviet Union proclaimed far and wide that it would be a cover for intelligence gathering. So Kennedy and Sargent Shriver went to great lengths to keep the Peace Corps pure.

Do you have any specific information identifying this as having happened, or are these just general rumors?

I know of ONE instance where a former peace corps volunteer, later worked for USAID and years later, eventually the CIA. He was fired by the CIA for failing a lie detector test and then sold CIA secrets to Russia. So that's one bad apple out of over 200,000 volunteers in 139 countries.

THE INVISIBLE GOVERNMENT -- PURITY IN THE PEACE CORPS
http://www.american-buddha.com/invisiblegov.19.htm


THE CONFLICT in the field between the ambassador and the intelligence operator is reflected on a larger scale in the frequent clashes in Washington between the State Department and the CIA. The uneasiness felt in other government agencies over the role of the CIA runs deeper than that, however.

This uneasiness is little known outside of the government, and it is almost never talked about. But the Peace Corps provides the best example.

During the 1960 campaign, John F. Kennedy had promised, if elected, to establish a Peace Corps. He kept his word, created the new agency by an executive order in March, 1961, and asked his brother-in-law, Sargent Shriver, Jr., to head it.

Shriver accepted, but he very quickly concluded that the Peace Corps, with its thousands of young volunteers dispersed over the globe, could well look like an all but irresistible "cover" to an intelligence agency always on the alert for new ways to disguise its people. At the same time, Shriver knew that the Peace Corps, because it would offer genuine help to the emerging nations of the world, would be an equally tempting target for Communist propaganda, which would seek at all costs to discredit it.

Therefore, Shriver privately proclaimed his determination to take every possible step to divorce the Peace Corps from even the faintest smell of intelligence work. He was well aware that even one "spy" incident involving a volunteer might destroy the Corps.

An anecdote that went the rounds of the executive suite of the Peace Corps at the time of its birth is revealing. It had the then Vice-President, Lyndon Johnson, advising Shriver to "beware the three C's -- Communism, Cuties, and the CIA."

In the spring of 1961 Shriver made a trip seeking to persuade neutral nations to accept Peace Corpsmen. He discovered that the leaders of those countries were blunt in asking whether he would let the Corps be used as a cover for intelligence agents. Shriver replied just as bluntly that he was doing everything he could within the government to make sure that the CIA stayed out of his agency. He also promised to assist individual countries in any security checks they might care to make.

[druidity33]

230. Obviously general rumor...

and totally anecdotal but i've heard it twice... once from a Vietnam vet (not sure what branch) and once from an enlisted Army man who served in the first "Gulf War". My impression was not necessarily that the CIA folks work in the Peace Corps, but that when asked who they were, that's who they identified themselves as. Sorry for the confusion, looking back on my remark i shouldn't have said it was a "front"... it implies the Peace Corps encouraged a relationship with the CIA and that's not what i meant.

:shrug:

[SheilaT]

107. I happen to know a fair number of

former Peace Corps Volunteers -- for some reason I keep on meeting them and making friends with them. NONE of them have ever gone anywhere near the CIA. And they are generally the best people I know.

[whathehell]

210. Oh hell, no...My spouse spent two years in Malaysia back in the seventies..There's a big barrier.n/t

[emcguffie]

317. Thanks for that.

Sorry, I don't post very often, so I missed this. But I appreciate the suggestion. I would not have thought of that, and it is a good idea.

Again, thanks.

[hifiguy]

77. Get her to Europe, Australia or New Zealand

ASAP. This country has finished circling the drain and is now headed through the trap. She will thank you for it.

[awoke_in_2003]

263. from what I have heard...

from a Kiwi I know is that the fundies are starting to infiltrate their gov't, also. It is a small thing now, but it was a small thing here in 1980, too.

[emcguffie]

318. How does one do such a thing?

You can't just go there, can you?

I have an old friend, who has a disease I have (CFIDS or CFS) and she just happened to move to New Zealand with her then boyfriend, who broke up with her after some time there. But she is staying there, as if she returns to the US she will not have any health care. She says she can get good health care for CFIDS there. I can't get that here, even though I have insurance!

My daughter also has this disease. New Zealand would definitely be a better place for her.

How sad that is.

[NJCher]

166. USA! USA!

Hi, neighbor!

I was just waiting for someone to make this point as I read this thread, and when I saw it was you I got a good laugh from it.

Silly....or dysfunctional. Deserves a thread all by itself.

Or maybe not: let's just pronounce it silly and dysfunctional.


Cher

[whathehell]

218. Lame.

Failure to totally trash the country makes you a "chauvinstic" flag-waving' teabagger, right?

Come back when you learn how to think in something other than extremes.:eyes:

[emcguffie]

319. Hi, Cher.

How are things over there?

Cat's going to be a senior... Here she comes.

CIao.

[Zax2me]

18. I guess we all just suck, then.

We're jobless, desperate, with refugee tendencies - and workaholics?!
This post just doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Divernan]

26. You'd understand if you'd worked at a corporation which went under

or fired whole divisions, or fired people regularly, especially as workers got into their 40's or 50's. What happens is that everyone is always in fear of losing their jobs, and desperately trying to check out any rumors, and being afraid to take vacation time because that's often when you get an email saying, "Don't come back. We'll fed ex your personal effects to you."

First you're a workaholic because the corporations figured out they can keep demanding more and more from you. Then you see other workaholics getting fired, especially if they're older, so that younger, cheaper employees can replace them. Then you get fired anyway. Then you find yourself desperately competing with a huge number of similarly unemployed people. Doesn't take long for the psychological stress to equal PTSD/refugee tendencies.

Don't you think that someone who has worked with refugees can recognize similar behaviors? Seems reasonable to me.

[whathehell]

29. And this is only happening in America?

I'll be impressed when the "observers" cross check in the European countries mentioned.

[Divernan]

56. The unemployed have it a LOT better in Europe! Utopia for the Unemployed

If you "lived" in Europe, as you claim, you should have known this.

http://www.forbes.com/2008/06/27/unemployment-benefits-world-forbeslife-cx_mw_0627worldunemployment.html

In Depth: World's Best Places For Unemployment Pay

Matt Woolsey, 06.27.08, 4:00 PM ET

Laid-off Danes who have worked 52 weeks over the previous three years are eligible to receive 90% of their average earnings for up to four years.

Unemployed job seekers in Norway and Finland are almost as well off. In Norway the unemployed receive 87.6% of their previous salaries for 500 days and in Finland they receive 85.1% of their previous salaries for one year.

And in Sweden, Israel, Japan and Germany, the unemployed can claim benefits worth between 66% and 90% of their last salaries. In the U.S., benefits in some states are as low 27% of income for average earners. Though Japan and Israel cracked the list, the remaining eight spots went to countries in Europe.

Ego aside, in these countries, looking for a job isn't a terribly desperate affair. In Luxembourg, for example, if you're a single, unemployed person who has worked six months out of the last year, you're eligible for payments at the rate of 80% of your previous income, unless those payments come out to more than 2.5 times the monthly minimum wage. Benefits are reduced at the half-year and full-year marks, and payment is distributed between central, local and community governments in annual budget outlays.

[whathehell]

60. Really?....Is that why they're Rioting??

and I was STUDYING in Europe, dear, not working...I know that the euros

have a stronger safety net, but they pay VERY high taxes,

and I know a number of Brits, for instance, who have come here to avoid

that and some other things.

See "Britsinamerica.org".

[Divernan]

65. The issue is unemployment status/benefits, not tax rates.

[whathehell]

191. Unemployment status and the benefits that accrue to it are paid with taxes, are they not?

So, yes, that IS a good part of the issue.

[JDPriestly]

97. Rioting and having strong unions and guilds is how they

got their good working conditions. But it happened a long time ago.

Germans generally do not strike much and they also don't riot much.

They have demonstrations, but leave it to other countries to riot.

[whathehell]

189. I'm all in favor of strong unions...I mention rioting, 'cause it doesn't sound simpatico with those

great unemployment benefits Diverman claims Europe has.

"They have demonstrations, but leave it to other countries to riot"?

That sounds interesting.:eyes:

[Prophet 451]

128. Our taxes max out at 50%

The 50% bracket was only introduced a couple of years ago, prior to that the maximum was 40% and the vast majority of the populace pay about 22%. That's not counting National Insurance which is our version of Social Security and has a REALLY complicated formula.

And yes, we had riots for a few days. We had riots because we have an underclass which is extremely poor, usually unemployed and which the current government is trying to make worse by removing what little support there is. The riots were largely due to this government's scorched earth austerity tactics, not because the rioters dislike living here.

[Divernan]

143. Well said! Thanks for your post.

I was struggling to formulate the accurate explanation which you and JDPriestly stated of the riots, but honestly, sometimes I just am overwhelmed by the stupidity and obtuseness of some posters. Between their lack of knowledge/education of history, economics, political science, psychology, etc., lack of awareness of what goes on outside the borders of their own country or cable reality shows, and lack of ability to engage in reasoned debate and discussion - I just have to move away from the keyboard and take a break!

[whathehell]

182. Fifty percent is a lot, IMO, although I'm all in favor of big tax increases on the wealthy here

A tax of 22% isn't bad, but my information from Brits in America is that, on TOP of that, you pay a 20% Sales tax...That's a lot of taxes!

I do have to take some issue with this statement:

"The riots were largely due to this government's scorched earth austerity tactics, not because the rioters dislike living here".

"Not because they 'don't like living here'?..How do you make that distinction?..Clearly, the

austerity tactics are PART of "living there", and you could certainly make the same case

for Americans, even those complaining here...I'd venture that most Americans "like living here"

too...It's the right wing politics we don't like!

[Prophet 451]

231. We don't have a sales tax

We have a Value Added Tax but most everyday goods (food, drugs, books, etc) are exempt from that and we have the usual "sin" taxes, of course. Certain goods ARE more expensive but that's usually more to do with retailers choosing to rip us off.

I take your point but my point was, it's something being done to us recently which caused the riots, not a fundemental flaw in our social system.

[amborin]

251. a great example of a Swiss corporation:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Nestl%C3%A9

[whathehell]

277. So Britain has no "fundamental flaws" in its social system?

Give me a break!

They have an anachronistic social "class" system that,

according to many, including British anthropologist,

Kate Fox, STILL exists,

and they have a goodly amount of racism in their police force.

The problems of the rioters, according to British commentators

themselves, are not "new"...They've been festering for decades.


You should check out the website "Brits in America"

and see what they have to say regarding life in America

versus life in the UK...I think it will be an eye opener.

britsinamerica.com

[Prophet 451]

314. Not what I said

I didn't say we didn't have fundemental flaws in our social system. We have plenty. What I said was that the riots were not a symptom of them. And I am a British commentator.

[whathehell]

346. You say you are

a "British commentator"...In what sense?..In the sense that you are a brit who "comments"".:rofl:

[Prophet 451]

359. Yep :)

[whathehell]

361. I'm deeply impressed, lol

I guess that makes me an "American Commentator" then.:hi:

[Prophet 451]

362. You got it :) n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

357. How about the last set of riots, 80's. 90's?

were those also not a symptom of anything more than the day's bad news? When you say 'the riots' do you mean the most recent only? Or all of them? How many do you need to have before you rethink the 'not a symptom' theory?

[Prophet 451]

360. I was referring only to the recent ones

The last mass riots I can remember (although my memory is not first-rate) were the Poll Tax riots. Again, a reaction to a relatively short-term issue.

We do have a lot of problems in our social system, I'm not disputing that (although so does the US so don't get too smug) but, by and large, people don't riot over long-term problems. They sit and stew and become more frustrated and angry but, for the most part, they don't riot. There needs to be some kind of spark to push them into action and that's almost always some short-term issue.

Do we have fundemental problems with our social system? Sure (the contempt for the unemployed and disabled, just to start) but riots are always started by some immeadeate concern which then allows the rioters to channel their frustration and anger through that.

[JDPriestly]

289. The 20% in sales taxes help to compensate for the practice of importing products.

If you have 20% sales taxes, you don't have to tax industry quite so much, so industry is more likely to stay in your country.

We have a serious problem with the exportation of our industrial capacity and our high-paying jobs for workers. A VAT of 20% (we already have over 9% in California) is a good idea provided that some of the taxes on employers are reduced at the same time.

That is because you pay a VAT on products made in China and other countries, the same amount of VAT that you would pay if the product were made in your own country.

Everyone says that a VAT is regressive, but if it keeps good, industrial jobs in the USA, I don't think it is really regressive in the long run. Better to get a higher wage and pay the VAT than to have no job or a very low-paying job and not pay the VAT.

[whathehell]

333. We could also simply impose tariffs, couldn't we?

That's what was done for the majority of our history.

[w0nderer]

222. they do pay high taxes

they also count taxes differently

in the US many people count taxes as 'income tax'
to cover what taxes pay in most Euro countries that's not correct though

take your paycheck
now pull out:
federal and state tax
medicare
medicaid
SS
healthcare
dentalcare
vision care
pension
that'd be the the equivalent of getting what the tax rate for at least some of the nordic countries
pays for, oh and some subsidized schooling and unemployment insurance and sickday insurance (paid sickdays)
with copays for medical around 20 dollars

ie..effective tax to get the same as they

what percentage tax rate did ya get?
was it near euro tax levels?

[JDPriestly]

290. Yes. In Europe, you pay for many things that we pay for separately

when you pay your taxes. You get more for your tax money -- less expenditure on military hardware, I'd like to mention.

[w0nderer]

298. yep, my point was that usually when the comparison is made

it's made 'tax rate to tax rate'
and it's an incorrect comparison

it is a cultural difference on both sides and needs to be kept 'in front' so people can compare properly
many Europeans never think of 'Americans pay for these things separately'
many Americans never think of 'Europeans get all this that i have to pay extra for, included'

most people never notice that
i know i didn't till i worked in the states

people kept mentioning low taxes and i was looking at what came out of my paycheck
and never got under 17% a lot higher once i started putting in health, and so forth

i even asked my boss about it, who helpfully pointed out that
ssi
medicare
and medicaid weren't 'taxes'

it's a way of nickel and diming a worker
in a less visible way

[JDPriestly]

288. Studying in Europe does not give you a good view of the working conditions

in Europe. And Britain is not typical of the rest of Europe.

The British have a lot of ancient history -- class divisions and dialect problems among others -- to deal with that make them very, very different from continental Europeans.

Don't jump to conclusions about all of Europe based on a couple of years studying in one country.

[Divernan]

312. So true. One semester abroad taking classes with other American students

and usually living with other US students, and partying/traveling on weekends with other US students does not exactly immerse anyone in a foreign culture. Some US schools even send their own professors over to teach the US students. It's basically moving a US classroom to an exotic/foreign setting. My kids all enrolled directly in their respective foreign universities - and were the only American student in their classes. My daughter at UCD actually ran for and was elected class representative to the University Senate.

[whathehell]

347. Reading one post of mine does not give you a good idea of my knowledge or awareness.

So don't "jump to conclusions" regarding my experience,

and I promise to do the same for you.:hi:

[Patiod]

196. And they have health care

Which fuels much of the terror of unemployment here

[JDPriestly]

91. [phone]

That is precisely how it works. And by the time you are 65, you are such a nervous wreck. That is the way of life for many, many Americans and sadly even for many, many American professionals.

[fascisthunter]

330. no... just those who think America workers deserve less than what they make now

with little to no benefits.

[Baby Bear]

25. Americans Try Harder

because we have low self-esteem.

[whathehell]

31. Umm...Speak for yourself, bro.

Maybe we're just inclined to "work harder"...We are, supposedly,

the most productive work force in the western industrialized world.

[JDPriestly]

98. Yes. We are the most productive and the most criticized by

our leadership. We work hard, but don't get the appreciation we deserve from our bosses.


I've had some great, appreciative bosses, but as I look back, I really had to work to get that appreciation. My bosses had it much easier than I did.

[stockholmer]

131. actually, when you base productivity 'per hour worked', the USA is not even close to the top

It is simply the fact that there is so much overtime (both paid and and subtly demanded non-paid, plus 'take-home work'), and so little holidays allowed. So you have Americans literally working 20% to 35% more actual labour-hours just to barely pass many countries in total output per worker.

[JDPriestly]

322. People don't work efficiently when they are too tired.

The mind just starts to slow down at a certain point.

I have experienced that quite often.

[whathehell]

214. I agree...and since our leadership criticizes us, maybe we could stop joining them!

[Divernan]

36. Employees were not always so stressed out in the US.

Starting in the 60's, I never had to seek out employment. People always approached me, and asked if I'd be interested, first, in a graduate fellowship, then an NIMH Research Fellowship, etc. When I was in law school, another student told me the firm she was joining wanted to talk to me, based on her recommendation. A lawyer from a larger firm would see me in action and offer me a better job. A former roommate's husband offered me a job as a law professor. A fellow professor recruited me for a government job.

The engineers who worked on the space race were recruited while still undergraduate or graduate students by Big Aerospace or NASA. Some years later when massive layoffs hit the industry, many of them had never had to send out a resume or go on an interview in their lives. Their experience was useless outside of aerospace and many couldn't get interviews, let alone job offers, for a very long time. They had to change fields, perhaps going back to school, and start at the bottom. Not easy when you're in your mid-40's and have kids ready to start college. I personally knew 4 engineers from Kennedy Space Center who committed suicide (2 tried to disguise it as drunken auto accidents - driving head on into a tree and a wall), because the only value they saw in their lives, and way to provide for their families, was their life insurance.

[bhikkhu]

30. I wonder if Los Angeles is particularly bad

I recall when I lived there in the early 90's (Hollywood, then Burbank) everyone I knew was working more than one job - though they usually had one standards job that didn't nearly pay the bills, then they had some under-the-table sideline that was usually not quite legal, then they were also selling bootleg perfume, or drugs, or time-shares, or had some additional scam or other, on the side. Essentially, it was spending nearly every waking minute either making money or scheming how to get some. On top of that, there was the battling nature of transport, and the often selfish and pitiless war-face one had to slip into just to get from one place to another...

I recall thinking while I lived there (and I was hardly immune from problems then, young and foolish) that if all things were known about everybody there, including myself, as trivial and harmless and built into daily life as it was, we could all spend the rest of our lives in prison. The "criminalization of normal living" was my term for it...

[Doc Holliday]

188. Is it as simple as greed?

I lived in Germany for a total of fourteen years, both before and after the Wall came down; there was contrast, too, because part of it was spent mainly in Frankfurt and the rest in Wurzburg-- in two totally different states, with different lifestyles. It was like the difference between living in Houston and living in San Angelo... and in both places, it seemed so easy to spot the difference in lifestyle-- they (the Euros) seemed not to spend their every waking hour chasing money to the extent that we Americans have been trained to. Businesses actually closed on Sundays. There were hardly any 24-hr. businesses-- no 7-11s, no all-night McDonald's or even gas stations, except near the autobahn. It seemed to me that the focus of their lives was not the acquisition and accumulation of money and things. Doing things, not buying things. If pressed on what their focus might be, I would not have had an answer, not one I could articulate...but I was pretty sure I knew what it was not.

All the evidence was right before my eyes. People spent time with their families, went to church, enjoyed the many public parks or went on nature walks with their friends, played with their kids, went out and had fun...whatever. Just basic human interaction stuff. Sometimes those same businesses would only be open half a day on Saturday, the better to get the jump on the weekend. Does the average person know that just about every small town in Germany has its own bakery, its own brewery, its own butcher shop, even a small supermarket, all of which are patronized by the locals? They do pay some taxes, oh-yes. Just about every town also has a nice public sports field, a public hall/gymnasium, often a public pool, and people use them. Private and public, and the mix works. Even in the cities...folk tended to deal in their own neighborhoods when possible. Of course, my time over there was done in '97; there are probably WalMart Superstores in Hamburg, Munich and Berlin by now....

Just saying "greed" is, even to me, awfully simplistic because it comes off as a sweeping indictment of capitalism, and there's no denying that America does have her faults and flaws which are rooted in our economic system. But there is also no denying that our European cousins seem to enjoy life as much if not more than we do; the old claptrap we were indoctrinated with that everyone wants to come to America is just that-- the majority of people seem content right where they are. "Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" has proven hollow in the face of our current reality.

When Bill Maher reminds us "...European socialism works!" he makes a helluva good point.

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[Hydra]

34. This is a silly country

But "silly" would suggest it's funny. It's only funny in a George Carlin sort of way.

I totally agree with your associate's findings. Every time I apply for a job, I'm terrified. I'm terrified because it means I'm out of work. I'm terrified because I know I'm competing with 50+ people, probably more qualified than I am. I'm terrified of running out of unemployment, since the powerful in Washington don't care if I run out. I'm terrified that if I do get the job, the company will have to lay me off because of the continuing bad economy.

And finally, I'm sick to my stomach that even if I succeed through all of that, I may be forcing someone else like me who has kids or parents dependent on them to keep looking fruitlessly for work.

It's an ugly place we live in.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

37. because a comment that one "doesn't take holidays" is indicative of trauma

on the level of war crime victims. I'm sorry, but this is absurd Oh, and the email response from the manager to the employee who emailed him on a Sunday is clearly abusive.

I know it's all the rage on DU to buy into almost anything that reinforces preconceived ideas, but this is ludicrous- and vaguely disgusting. Middle class professionals are not akin to war crime victims.

pfft

and heartily unrecced.

Oh, yeah, and for anyone who responds predictably with "you're in denial or you're just rah rah America- hardly, and that's not the point.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

43. He compared their behavior and demeanor to refugees,

He didn't compare their circumstances to those of genocide victims.

[cali]

49. sorry, although I understand that, he was, by comparing their behavior

and demeanor- and words- to war crime victims, he was implicitly comparing them. Oh, and the manager who said if his subordinate didn't go home and screw his wife, he would, is still an abusive piece of shit. duh.

[jwirr]

73. So you don't think any of us are stressed out? We are all handling

this just great?

[cali]

74. uh, did I say that? No, of course not. I didn't say it or imply it in any way, shape or form.

Of course some of us are stressed out. Hell, I've been working 6 or 7 days a week for the past several months. *(of course, that all ends for me once the summer season is over, but regardless it is stressful). That has nothing to do with my comments.

[tama]

187. How do you know

that the manager is an abusive piece of shit?

Could it be possible that you are interpreting his words too literally and through specks of Objective Political Correctness?

I have no problem of imagining that the manager and the employer are on casual and friendly terms and speak like, duh, humans speak to each other. Compassionately, using sexual joke to deliver the message (about what really matters in life etc.).

[cali]

269. sorry, no manager has the right to say something like that to a subordinate

duh.

[tama]

271. Right?

By which law or moral code?

You cannot imagine a situation where two persons, even though officially "manager" and "subordinate" treat each other not as official positions but as human beings and coworkers and friends? Or is your moral condemnation not limited to manager-subordinate relations and in your opinion a coworker has no right to use a sexual joke to tell his buddy to get out of workplace and go home to see his family?

To me your attitude and moral condemnation is a sign of a very strict and hierarchical society. Certainly not a sign of the "land of the free".

[cali]

297. sure, that's a possibility but that doesn't happen in the vast majority of situations between

manager and subordinate. There are reasons why comments like this are over the line- pitiful that you don't understand that.

[tama]

304. I'm glad

that you admit at least the possibility - and I have no argument against what you say about majority of situations. And to tell you the truth, I'm very sensitive to abuse from position of authority and power.

But since the intent of the manager in this situation is clearly positive and compassionate at least according to my standards - go home and spend more time with your family and loved ones instead of toiling your ass of - the way of expressing that intent and your moral condemnation of it boils down to 1) generalizing absolutes from likelihoods, which is a logical error 2) cultural differences.

[JDPriestly]

99. Cali, have you ever worked in a law firm?

Because university professors don't work in the same conditions as associates in law firms.

[cali]

125. I'm aware of the conditions of both medical interns and associates in law firms

I still think comparing the stress that such people undergo with the trauma of being a war crimes victim- is nothing short of obscene. When we refer to Bosnian victims of war crimes, we're talking about the victims of rape, genocide and torture. It's a fatuous comparison- and yes, the author of the piece quoted in the OP is making an implied comparison.

[Quantess]

130. The OP is just repeating what an associate said to him, and we all know that.

Nobody said we have to nod our heads in wild-eyed acceptance at what the Swiss person said to him. It's just an interesting remark, that's all. I do believe the OP posted it here for sake of discussion. To me, the Swiss person sounded like he was wildly exaggerating. Maybe he's a dramatic type, as many people are, in everyday conversation. Still, it's worth considering.

[JDPriestly]

326. I don't think that the person who made the statement was claiming

that the stress that Americans undergo in the workplace was comparable to that of war victims.

He was simply stating that the body language of Americans reminded him of the body language of the victims of genocide.

The inference is that Americans are undergoing a lot of stress related to their work (and unemployment and fear of unemployment).

So, I think you are misunderstanding what was said.

The equivalency is not between the experiences of the American workplace v. the rape, genocide and torture, but rather between the body language of American workers who have been beaten down by our employment system and the victims of rape, genocide and torture.

If you don't know how it is to do a really good job for an employer and then be fired, how it is to fear for your ability to provide for your family although you know that you have done your best in your work and your life, then you would not have the personal experience to be able to understand this.

So you have to call on your compassion.

[Bette Noir]

234. My husband routinely put in 24-hour days.

Yeah, he was traumatized.

[whathehell]

351. A bit of hyperbole, to be sure. Thank you.

[leeroysphitz]

42. I'm proud of my work ethic. I'm proud to be a "workaholic" from a nation of "workaholics".

I don't need a 36 hour work week to consider myself well treated. I just want my fair share of the value that I'm helping to create. A living wage, healthcare, maybe even a chance to put the kids through college if I am diligent and thrifty...

I don't feel that I'm getting those things now but my experience is hardly comparable to that of "shell shocked" refugees.

I find this sentiment repugnant, and just plain chauvinist.

[TheKentuckian]

53. Demeanor is not the same as conditions. We can't fix problems when their mention brings up

reactionary shields and attacks.

Employees are overworked, underpaid, and generally squeezed, that should be the concern drawn from this observation not some hollow defensiveness.

[supernova]

54. Thank you

People seem to miss the intent of the perspective in the OP.

[leeroysphitz]

63. Wow. It's like you didn't even read my reply. n/t

[JDPriestly]

103. leeroysphitz, you are a perfect example of what the OP

is talking about. You are on edge.

Relax.

You are living proof that the OP is right. Wow! Talk about overreaction.

You can work hard and be proud of it without overstressing about your job. You need time off to balance your work life. Whew! How is your family dealing with the stress?

[leeroysphitz]

112. On the next episode of JDPriestly Internet Psychiatrist: CNC operator on the EDGE.

lol (at you)

[Occulus]

205. What would happen if you got sick for a week

and had to stay away from work for a week after that?

[leeroysphitz]

223. That happened to me once about 5 years ago. I got pneumonia.

Out of work for about two weeks. We had to borrow some money from my dad to make bills. Why?

ETA: If it happened again today we would most likely be able to use our savings without having to bother relatives for a loan.

[Divernan]

228. The point is that workers should not have to go through life savings to handle illness.

Some people don't have relatives able/willing to loan them money. If you want to and enjoy working harder than most, to the point that you are proud to call yourself a workaholic, that is your choice.

The thrust of most on this thread is that American workers deserve better than sweatshop conditions. That's what the union movement was about: Safe working conditions, health care, sick time off without losing one's job.

The majority of bankruptcies are due to uninsured, uncovered medical expenses. People who have worked hard all their lives and contributed greatly to this country's booming economy have lost everything and been thrown away like so much dreck.

It is wrong. It is immoral. It should not be defended by the very workers at risk.

[leeroysphitz]

229. If you read my initial reply carefully you will see that I agree with you.

"I don't need a 36 hour work week to consider myself well treated. I just want my fair share of the value that I'm helping to create. A living wage, healthcare, maybe even a chance to put the kids through college if I am diligent and thrifty...

I don't feel that I'm getting those things now but my experience is hardly comparable to that of "shell shocked" refugees.

I find this sentiment repugnant, and just plain chauvinist.

I was pointing out the inherent chauvinism of the OP. Comparing American workers to refugees is over the top and belittles the value OF MY LABOR.

[Divernan]

71. "When you coming home Dad?"

When it comes to being a workaholic, keep in mind that your kids only have one dad.

Cats in the Cradle
by Harry Chapin

A child arrived just the other day,
He came to the world in the usual way.
But there were planes to catch, and bills to pay.
He learned to walk while I was away.
And he was talking 'fore I knew it, and as he grew,
He'd say, "I'm gonna be like you, dad.
You know I'm gonna be like you."

And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon,
Little boy blue and the man in the moon.
"When you coming home, dad?" "I don't know when,
But we'll get together then.
You know we'll have a good time then."

My son turned ten just the other day.
He said, "Thanks for the ball, dad, come on let's play.
Can you teach me to throw?" I said, "Not today,
I got a lot to do." He said, "That's ok."
And he walked away, but his smile never dimmed,
Said, "I'm gonna be like him, yeah.
You know I'm gonna be like him."

And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon,
Little boy blue and the man in the moon.
"When you coming home, dad?" "I don't know when,
But we'll get together then.
You know we'll have a good time then."

Well, he came from college just the other day,
So much like a man I just had to say,
"Son, I'm proud of you. Can you sit for a while?"
He shook his head, and he said with a smile,
"What I'd really like, dad, is to borrow the car keys.
See you later. Can I have them please?"

And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon,
Little boy blue and the man in the moon.
"When you coming home, son?" "I don't know when,
But we'll get together then, dad.
You know we'll have a good time then."

I've long since retired and my son's moved away.
I called him up just the other day.
I said, "I'd like to see you if you don't mind."
He said, "I'd love to, dad, if I could find the time.
You see, my new job's a hassle, and the kid's got the flu,
But it's sure nice talking to you, dad.
It's been sure nice talking to you."
And as I hung up the phone, it occurred to me,
He'd grown up just like me.
My boy was just like me.

And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon,
Little boy blue and the man in the moon.
"When you coming home, son?" "I don't know when,
But we'll get together then, dad.
You know we'll have a good time then."

[leeroysphitz]

72. I totally get your point. I love that song BTW.

but part of being a good father is setting a good example. My boys see everyday that I work to provide for them.

[JDPriestly]

101. Are you working in a law firm because I think the OP discussed

interviewing lawyers.

[fujiyama]

155. I agree to some extent

I don't mind working long hours during the week, if I feel there's some incentive and recognition - hell it really doesn't always need to be completely monetary. Maybe a showing of appreciation - or hell sometimes, even a fucking thank you would help.

[GliderGuider]

272. I'm a survivor of the tech bubble.

I worked in high tech R&D for datacomm companies for about 20 years from the early '80s until just after the tech wreck. I really had my eyes opened in that time:

• I was fed a steady diet of 50 hour weeks for 20 years, ramping often to 60+ but rarely dropping to 40. In most of that time I subsisted on two weeks of annual leave.
  
• I was fed a steady diet of bromides about "sharing the value I created", the need to "take ownership" in the name of my "professionalism". I was encouraged to develop a "can do" attitude, to put concerns about my health on a back burner, and I was thanked by senior management for not presenting "work/life balance problems" because I was childfree. I was encouraged to regard the company as my "family", with management assurances that my commitment was reciprocated by the company.
  
• I was well paid, but it took me a while to realize that despite management protestations I was not, in fact, a "professional". I was a salaried employee, with everything that implied.
  
• I was given stock options (that "sharing the value" business), but on at least one occasion I was told by the CEO that cashing out would indicate a lack of loyalty and commitment on my part.
  
• I burned out twice in those 20 years. Each time the recovery took longer than I expected, though aside from taking a couple of weeks of my on vacation time to deal with the acute symptoms I worked through the 6-month aftermath.
  
• As the tech wreck grew closer I watched the corporate attitude change. It went from "We're all family" to "What have you done for me lately?" I know a man who was responsible for doing product software builds. His mother had a severe heart attack early one morning and was taken to the hospital. He asked for time off to go to the hospital and was told that he could do so provided he was back by 2:30 to do the daily build. Fortunately he had the gumption to resign on the spot.
  
• When I was finally laid off in 2001 it was one of the best days of my life. The relief was palpable, similar to what some people experience from declaring bankruptcy after trying to deal with a crushing debt load for years.
  
• I will never, ever go back to such a situation - it is not worth my physical or mental health.

Depending on which way you look at it, life is either way too short or far too long to spend it living like that. I try not to be cynical about what I now realize was manipulation of the workers by the owners, but I have to admit that knowing it was a deliberate tactic to enhance their bottom line does feed my cynicism.

Self-destruction is no virtue, and self-preservation is no sin.

[JDPriestly]

292. A few years ago, I was working on something to do with employment,

and I noticed that the California Code of Regulations on employment did not offer the same protections to workers in the computer industry as to other employees in terms of overtime, hours, etc.

It shocked me to see that.

[Divernan]

46. One of my kids worked for a major German bank in their Manhattan office

US headquarters. Of course she started right off with the four weeks paid vacation plus holidays and excellent benefits. The German bosses did not micromanage, but they did have people sign out at the end of the day. If anyone worked past the 5 p.m. quitting time, more than on a rare occasion, they were called in to discuss it. The German attitude was that anyone who was working more than the regular work week must have been burdened with too much work, or with work for which they needed some further training.

[CatholicEdHead]

55. Smart Germans

Around my workplace it has been 50+hr weeks for most of the past year. They have kept themselves purposely understaffed in a attempt to save money. They use contractors often, string them along, and also bring in temps and string them along as they can until they legally have to make them full time all to get away from vacation time, sick time, and health insurance.

[jwirr]

75. My son-in-law worked in such a place and the song says it well.

When that is the policy there is not time for anything but work. I grew up in an America where we used to talk about leisure time. There does not seem to be much of that anymore.

[supernova]

47. This thread has brought out

the America 1st! reflexivity.

[cali]

50. it's brought out a lot more reflexive yeh, that's right, over a very silly piece

and a craptaculous comparison.

[supernova]

51. I can see his point

even if it's heavy handed.

The sad thing is, most Americans don't realize it because it's all we know.

[Divernan]

69. Chauvinists are easily threatened & offended

chau·vin·ism (shv-nzm)
n.
1. Militant devotion to and glorification of one's country; fanatical patriotism.
2. Prejudiced belief in the superiority of one's own gender, group, or kind:

[whathehell]

213. This thread has brought out the "America sucks" reflexivity!

[jwirr]

58. I don't think it is just the jobs. It is the whole economic mess that has

effected us about how we think about ourselves. And that economic mess includes the environment, the health care situation & personal debt.

Every night I watch KO, Rachel, Big Ed and Lawrence O'Donnell. To add to that I spend hours during the day and evening on DU. I love all of them. But the truth of the matter is that I go to bed heartsick. If you know what is happening around you then you cannot help but be "shell shocked" and afraid.

I would bet that almost every intelligent American is feeling some of this anxiety. We are in crisis - we would be brain dead if we did not feel it. Change is happening despite the government and change is not easy.

[supernova]

61. You're right

it's not just jobs/working conditions, it's the whole pool of economic insecurity in which we swim.

[Divernan]

62. You make a very good point. The stress level in this country is at an all time high.

And it spills over into all aspects of our lives.

[amborin]

64. your union-unfriendly posting history makes me wonder--you bash Boeing and UAW workers repeatedly...

[Divernan]

70. This post is pro treating employees well, and not anti-union

[amborin]

81. really? imho, it's a very typical, thinly-veiled diatribe against U.S. workers

why not read up on the OP's posting history and see the contempt for American workers

hates Boeing and its workers; ( prefers airbus over u.s. aircraft); hates the UAW and its workers...etc...........

i re-read the OP; imho, it's another iteration of the same rant: "U.S. workers suck, in every way"

[Occulus]

211. I applied the OP to US managers and supervisors and agreed completely.

The OP's observations apply to my workplace in every way save the described age discrimination later on in the thread (and that's because it's a Federal employer). Employees there are overworked, stressed, out-and-out bullied by management, and feel like they're under constant threat (which we are), etc., & etc. The environment "at work" is terrible and from speaking with others, it's like that everywhere, and that's a direct result of the economic "downturn" that somwhow netted the people at the top a king's ransom while leaving us all working harder, working more hours, and ending up with less in our pockets at the end of the day than we did when the sun rose that morning.

Our bosses know how we feel and they like it that way.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

94. no, I bash incompetently managed third-rate corporations

If you get a tear in your eye for mind-numbingly patriotic Boeing, GM and Halliburton ads that is your business.

[Romulox]

161. You promote outsourcing, then post this "Where are the JOOOOOOBSSSS????" crap.

It's transparent! :hi:

[Divernan]

164. Hiring Americans to work in LA is NOT OUTSOURCING,

You are very confused - that's the kindest interpretation to be put on your posts on this very dynamic thread.

[Romulox]

167. Read the dude's other threads for crying out loud. He's Mr. Outsourcing.

"You are very confused - that's the kindest interpretation to be put on your posts on this very dynamic thread"

You're obviously confusing me with the poster amborin (to whom you replied upthread.) Doesn't exactly promote confidence that you can keep the names of posters straight, such as the virulently anti-worker poster who posted the OP. :hi:

[Romulox]

169. The OP is all about trashing American workers, promoting Korean cars

(He's never said, but he likely works for Kia, Hyundai, or similar.)

Go ahead. Ask him how work conditions are at the Kia plant. Ask him! :hi:

[JDPriestly]

104. But this OP bashes employers, not employees.

Please read it again.

[Romulox]

159. Someone who hasn't caught wind that John Edwards was a huge phoney

isn't always the first to get a joke. :shrug:

[Divernan]

179. John Edwards? What alternative universe are you posting in?

Talk about being completely off topic.

[Romulox]

180. It's the poster's avatar. Do you have images (and seemingly, most words) turned off in your browser

? :silly:

[Divernan]

220. You refer to the OP. The OP's avatar is NOT John Edwards, it is John Goodman

the actor who played Walter Sobchak in The Big Liebowski.

[Romulox]

239. No. I am replying to the poster under whose post my reply appears.

That's how this board works.

[mentalsolstice]

225. Huh?

I have images turned on, and I see John Goodman in that avatar.

[Romulox]

237. I was responding to JDPriestly. That's why my post is indented and below his.

In fact, you are responding to a "subthread" below those same comments, to which I responded! :hi:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1779031&mesg_id=1781503

[JDPriestly]

284. John Edwards was the only candidate who actually made a video

of a closed textile plant for his campaign.

That was a daring thing to do.

He paid for his courage. He is surely not the only presidential candidate who had an affair while traveling around campaigning for office.

He is the one whose name was pasted all over the National Enquirer.

I have wondered whether the lack of Obama challengers is due to fear of revelations about potential challengers' personal lives or simply losing an election.

Edwards understood the economics. He was the only candidate who really did, although Kucinich came in a close second.

People criticize Edwards because he was associated with a hedge fund, but I have thought that perhaps he owed his early awareness of what was happening on Wall Street and in the housing and lending markets to his experiences at the hedge fund.

Edwards was the only candidate who really talked about the poverty and the disparity between rich and poor in our country. Kucinich was strongly anti-war, but not as effective in addressing economic issues in my view. That is why I supported Edwards in the primary.

I put his picture back as my avatar when the press started outing Anthony Wiener. Ensign was still in the Congress at that time. I think Ensign should be charged for illegal financial transactions. I won't hold my breath until that happens.

As I understand it, and I could be wrong, both Kucinich and Edwards have been accused of illegal conduct in their handling of campaign contributions. Strange coincidence how progressives are so easily dragged into criminal court while the Bush administration members who OK'd torture and the bankers who destroyed the world's economy for their personal gain are never brought before grand juries, much less indicted on criminal charges.

Yes, I am defending Edwards, and I will continue to do so.

[amborin]

240. just check out

the OP's posting history....

hates Boeing and its workers; touts Airbus....

touts foreign-made autos and trashes UAW products and UAW workers.....

loves Hundais (made in non-unionized, low-wage, right to work states).......

[Romulox]

158. You got this guy's number, big time: anti-worker. nt

[FreeJoe]

66. It's not uniform

The bubble I'm in (oil industry) is nothing like what you've described. Half of our offers of internships were turned down, and we have an awesome intern program. We're about to make changes in our retirement program because a scary number of employers are looking to retire this year. We've got several projects slated for next year that are in jeopardy for lack of people with the skills to execute them.

[JDPriestly]

106. Sounds like the OP is talking about lawyers.

I'm not sure, but that is my impression. Different industries have different work standards.

[RedCappedBandit]

67. Feel like I've read this before

Interesting

[hifiguy]

76. Most people in this country

are suffering from some sort of PTSD after thirty years of Repuke rule (yes that included the Big Dawg and the Current Occupant).

Not really surprising. Read Naomi Klein's "The Shock Doctrine." This is the natural result of people being forced into Milton Friedman's psychotic dystopia.

[roamer65]

79. Delete.

[ipaint]

141. +1. The professional class is getting a taste of what the poor and slave wage classes

have experienced for decades.

Boo-hoo.

[Divernan]

147. You are basically cheering dehumanizing of ALL workers, then.

It's not fair, right, moral, etc., for ANY workers to be treated like this. And when this treatment spreads to the professional classes, the American dream of being able to work your way through difficult advanced education, at GREAT expense, to reap the rewards of a great life for you and your family - well that dream is now dead on arrival. Where would we be without skilled professionals? Third world here we come!

[tama]

209. Are you sure

you are not dehumanizing third world workers?

Just asking.

[Divernan]

219. 3rd world workers have already been dehumanized & I deplore that!

What I object to are those here who defend American employers' treating US workers like shit. We should be fighting to strengthen our unions and then get those unions to go international.

[tama]

224. Dehumanized by whom?

Which nation consumes one quarter of all natural resources of Earth? And has a history of dehumanizing each new wave of dislocated immigrant workers who have been forced to leave their home because capitalistic expansiong of ideology called 'money'.

IMHO what really dehumanizes workers everywhere is working for money interest, ie those who have the power to create and control money. In terms of cultural anthropology, the most prevalent economic system is gift economies. This greed economy, that has spread over the whole globe, is an aberration in that respect.

[Divernan]

233. They've been dehumanized by colonial powers & now the corporations

[tama]

242. Okey

classical colonialism and corporate neocolonialism. Glad to see we are on the same page here.

Do you also agree that we live on a finite planet where unlimited growth of consumption is not possible? And that the current situation has lot to do with meeting the limits of growth that the Club of Rome started to speak about few decades ago?

Now becomes the harder part, drawing conclusions for workers of America and generally 1st world working class. Neoliberal globalization since the days of Reagan and Thatcher has ment "race to the bottom", ie. freely moving capital has seeked cheepest labor it can harness for capitalistic profitmaking. There has been no growth in energy consumption per capita globally for four decades, which in terms of real economy (energyflows) has meant no growth and a global zero sum game, instead there has been buildup of huge financial bubbles that are now inflating and capitalism is facing systemic crisis - even according to Nouriel Roubini the "final depression" of capitalistic self-destruction predicted Marx and many other economists.

To put it bluntly, Chindia is growing and consuming more only by consumption decreasing in OECD countries, thanks to continuous depression(s). OECD piece of the cake is getting smaller while Chindia (or BRIC or larger) piece is getting better, and all the while the financial elite inside OECD countries can keep on growing their piece of the cake is only by robbing from the relatively poorer ladders in their own base. IMF taking over Greece, Ireland and Portugal means that once kicked out of South-America, it has nowhere else to go but to start devouring it's own limbs.

If you agree with this assesment of the situation, what are the implications for working class of America and more generally, OECD?

You suggest international unions. Does that mean that 1) you still want corporations to profit more and more, so they can pay their workers (in solidarity to international working class first in thirld world) more and more so they can consume more and more? There was that limited planet problem... so 2) are you ready to accept, as part of an international union that the workers in OECD countries get paid less and can consume less of global resourcess, so that workers in 3rd world can consume more and meet similar living standards somehere in the middle? Are you ready to level with dehumanized 3rd world workers?

Or 3), revolutionary unions and what not forms of grassroot revolutions, getting rid of parasitic elite classes, local and global sustainability and self governance of networks of local communities?

[Divernan]

309. Interesting observations and food for thought.

It would take more time than I have now to adequately research and respond to all your points. I will comment that birth control is the sine qua non of human survival on this once pristine and beautiful planet. I agree that American consumes far, far too much and has done so at least since the end of WW II.

Good environmental practices, and particularly sustainability are the goals - but this world is too technologically advanced and interconnected to function simply through self governance of networks of local communities. There are national and international infrastructures to be regulated and maintained as well.

It was a rare treat to read your well thought out post.

Peace.

[ipaint]

281. The professional class has been dehumanizing the wage slave and poor for decades.

And even now when they begin to taste what it is like to be a slave they expect those of us at the bottom, who have been defending our humanity for 30 years against middle class attacks (welfare reforms, medicaid cuts, food stamp cuts and a myriad of safety net cuts), to kiss their feet and ease their pain.

Right.

Here's a clue...trickle down never worked from rich to middle class and it completely fails from middle class to poor, too.

"When someone works for less pay than she can live on — when, for example, she goes hungry so that you can eat more cheaply and conveniently — then she has made a great sacrifice for you, she has made you a gift of some part of her abilities, her health, and her life. The 'working poor,' as they are approvingly termed, are in fact the major philanthropists of our society. They neglect their own children so that the children of others will be cared for; they live in substandard housing so that other homes will be shiny and perfect; they endure privation so that inflation will be low and stock prices high. To be a member of the working poor is to be an anonymous donor, a nameless benefactor, to everyone else."
— Barbara Ehrenreich (Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America)

Where would the professional class be without the wage slaves.

[JDPriestly]

293. Actually, washing dishes for a major pizza corporation, I was paid

a lot less but treated a lot better than I was in a big law firm. That's my personal experience.

[ipaint]

295. Being paid well is being treated well.

health ins., dental care, sick days, vacations and a pension is being treated well. Making barely enough to eat and lacking any benefits is being treated as a slave. A polite boss doesn't change that.

[War Horse]

78. For what it's worth,

I have about 15+ years of experience from multinationals here in Europe.

It's been a bit of a "schizofrenic" experience at times...

I recognize that "German attitude" referenced above, where if you work too much overtime you can expect to get called into a meeting and asked "are you ok? Is there anything we can do to alleviate the situation?" etc. At the same we've been purposely understaffed (and expected to push the subcontractors further and further).

I think one of the biggest differences I've noticed over the years is the extent to which a major client is allowed to push an employee (in a "Jump? - How high?" sense).

I mean we've really, really pushed the envelope on what people have had to deal with at the European sites as well, and I seen people break down right in front of me. But I've gotten the impression from my U.S. counterparts that it's even more extreme over there. I've always felt I've had at least *some* backing from management if a client was making demands that were totally unreasonable, that didn't really seem to be the case at the U.S. sites.

Of course, this could very well vary from business to business, I'm speaking from my own experience here.

[roamer65]

80. Everything rides on getting a job in this country.

Housing, food, healthcare, etc, etc.

Of course they are uptite...especially if they have kids.

Welcome to rampant, unfettered capitalism, Swiss dude.

But, get ready you are going to have major economic problems in Europe very shortly.

[JDPriestly]

84. Especially true about lawyers.

Litigation is about as close to a battleground as you could get outside of the military or maybe police or fire department work.

It is quite unbelievable.

And they are trying to make all professions competitive and unforgiving and cruel in that way -- even teaching.

Associates not taking a vacation (or taking a very brief one only) in their early years working in law is common in my experience.

Working long, long, long hours is also expected.

It used to be that an associate was expected to bill a certain number of hours to clients each year in order to keep the ratings high. Billed time does not include all the time you are working in your office or even all the time you spent on your client's case. It is only the time that you can actually bill to a specific client on a specific case. Some firms require that an associate bill anywhere from 1600 to 2000 hours a year. That number could be lower now, but that is a lot of time working.

Associates are known to come in on weekends including Sunday mornings and work late at night.

If you know someone who is thinking of going into the field, have them talk to someone who has been working just a couple of years (not a law firm partner) to find out how things are in the field at this time.

[Divernan]

92. Last law firm I worked for (1993) demanded 3,000 billable hours per year.

We had no sick day policy. If you had to take sick time, you had to make up the billable hours asap. The senior partners were known to double and triple bill their clients, and that was clearly what they expected associates to do. I told them I would not/could not bill like that and left to become a law professor. Eventually I worked as a government attorney - about 1/3 the pay, but 40 hour weeks & a good pension plan.

Now there is such a surplus of attorneys that some 30% are working as "contract attorneys", i.e, 40 hour weeks (no overtime) at $15 an hour with no insurance or other benefits. Of course their work is then billed to various clients at $200 per hour or more. It's really slave labor.

What a money maker! You pay some poor schmuck with a JD degree $600 a week, and bill out $8,000 a week (or more) to clients.

No way contract lawyers can pay off student loans, let alone support a family, at $600 gross per week.

[spooky3]

102. I know someone who at mid-life had to move back with her parents

She was laid off from a law firm, then found work only as a "contract attorney" and just couldn't afford to live in our expensive metro area, even though she took on another part time job. Eventually she moved to another state to share quarters with her parents. She did a lot of animal rescue work that she simply could not afford to do and ultimately wasn't here to do anymore. There were many tragic consequences, for both people and animals, of this spiral, and I am sure there are hundreds, if not thousands of stories like hers.

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. Yep seen that as well.. but have been afraid of actually

making this public... Good that I am not crazy about it. The ticks are quite obvious at times, if you know what you are looking at.

So is the fear.

[woo me with science]

100. K&R Unfortunately, this is a global strategy

of war and corporate profiteering that is being enacted. We have seen the masses in other countries rising up over being made into economic slaves. America is coming near the front of the line, it seems. But unless we all rise up to stop this march, America won't be the last.

[Aviation Pro]

105. Americans are not traumatized by their jobs....

...they are traumatized by the debt they carry, which causes them to be hyper-sensitive to the (phantom) needs of work. The excellent book, The Tyranny of the Bottom Line deftly explains this.

[Safetykitten]

108. Apparently you have never worked in an architects office.

[gateley]

109. Wow. Not at all what I was expecting. Sobering. And sad. nt

[Citizen Worker]

110. I've been wondering when the unemployed would begin displaying symptoms of PTSD.

[Yavin4]

114. In NYC, We Get Hoards of European Tourists

Whole extended families walking about, and I know for a fact that you would never see whole American families walking around Europe.

[harmonicon]

115. Interesting.

I'd be interested to know more about what the jobs entail, where they'd take place, etc.

I left Los Angeles 5 years ago, and the US a few months after that. Having lived in a number of places in the US, I can say that I've never encountered people more paranoid or high-strung than in LA. Before I moved there people told me about this "laid back, west coast attitude". That's not what I experienced. A few months after moving to the UK, I noticed that I was a lot more relaxed, and realized why: no car. Having a car caused me a hell of a lot of stress; knowing parking regulations/worrying about parking, worrying about the car breaking down (for matter of both convenience and finance), traffic headaches, etc., etc.

I'm about as far as you could get from being a "workaholic", but it took me about a year to realize that I didn't have to keep telling people my schedule. I was just amazed that I got 30-some days off a year. I'd explain when I was leaving on such-and-such a day, and that on this day outside of the country I'd be doing research, so was it ok for that not to be one of my vacation days... really, I was just expected to do what I had to do, and no one would really give a damn unless I didn't do those things.

I have a Russian friend who moved to the US when he was about 15 (in his 40's now - also spent time growing up in Austria). We were in the Czech Republic one summer, and he said that of all the places he's been, the US has more crazy people per-capita than anywhere. I believe him. For reasons that I can't fully explain, Americans are fucking nuts.

[bluestate10]

121. I love my line of work. If I could stay alert for 24 hours a day, I would

do what I love. Have you considered that some people just love working?

[treestar]

124. Not consistent with being traumatized though

Would you be traumatized at the thought you could not work?

Loving your work but yet knowing you need it to survive are two different things.

[wickerwoman]

126. Then you're not who the OP is talking about.

I loved my last job but I also needed time to do other things. I eventually quit because I found I was spending 90% of my one (maybe) day off just lying in bed staring at the wall too tired even to watch TV. I couldn't stay on top of laundry, I was working so many hours. And what did I get from my boss? "You're ten minutes late" not "thank you for working 22 days in a row" or "thank you for staying until eleven pm almost every day last week".

It's actually in the jobs people love that the tendency for employers to exploit workers seems most prevalent. If you're a teacher or a nurse and you complain about the number of hours or hint that you might be burning out it's seen as a personal failing because you're just not passionate enough about your job, not the very understandable explanation that people need to balance their jobs with things like spending time with their children, taking care of their health, learning new things, etc.

In my last job, a knew a guy who was basically fired for taking a honeymoon because asking for two weeks off showed he wasn't committed enough. That's the sort of shit that is creating the phenomenon that the OP is talking about.

[Prophet 451]

129. Some people do, yes

I had a job like that for nearly ten years (until Fox took over and fucked everything up). But there's a difference between working long hours because you enjoy working there or believe in what you're doing and working long hours because that's what is expected of you.

[Divernan]

149. Addiction by any other name - try to find some other interests in life.

If you are so totally enthralled with your work, imagine your psychological state if you were fired with NO hope of getting another job in your field. PTSD, anyone?

[fujiyama]

150. Well you're definitely lucky

and probably the rare case.

It's definitely ideal if your work is your hobby or passion.

Unfortunately that's not the case for most. If anything, a lot of people work the job they have just to provide health care for themselves and their family. I can't imagine the how much more productive our country would be if we had decent universal health care. Instead of people being stuck working jobs they hate, people would likely be more willing to take risks without the worry of getting sick and going bankrupt.

[Kumbricia]

122. Job PTSD

If you've ever had a terrible, truly unfair experience with an employer, you will be ALWAYS on edge at your next job.

It's completely unpredictable and the average worker has no security whatsoever.

I honestly don't know how other people can relax and enjoy themselves at work. I can't. Part of me always has a sense that things could come crashing down unexpectedly at any time and then I'll have to face another year of unemployment and job searching.

[Divernan]

153. Absolutely true! I worked in a shark tank of a law firm - I never relaxed.

The firm had so many associates and partners leaving it called in a management consultant. A disgruntled partner leaked the consultant's report to the local paper. The consultant described the management atmosphere as the most toxic he'd ever encountered. Of course NO changes were made following that report. I got out of there at the first opportunity.

Posting this made me recall what it was like to dread going into work every single day, and getting muscle pain from my constantly clenched shoulders.

[prete_nero]

123. here?

I find it just a little disconcerting that on this forum of all places I would be attacked for having this attitude:

"I don't want to miss out on living my life by working non-stop."

Responses range from 'you're lazy' to 'love it or leave it'.


...people are making this way too personal. Its got nothing to do with people's opinions or work ethics. It would seem to me it has MORE to do with the way corporations and businesses in general have started to treat their workers...top that off with a really crappy economy and its just a disaster. A corporation fires 10% of their employees and the 90% have to make up the workload = instant improved productivity...but who pays the price for that? The workers with the increased stress as well as the former employees who are now out of work.

This isn't about nationalism its the well known fact that corporation are destroying this country and we arent doing anything to stop them.

[wickerwoman]

264. +1000

And welcome to DU.

It's mind-boggling how defensive some people can get around the simple observation that the management ethic in many, many American companies is incredibly toxic and soul-destroying.

Guess we should add Stockholm syndrome to PTSD.

My first year living and working in New Zealand, I found myself constantly telling myself to calm down, chill out, slow down... I'm not constantly being judged, not just on my performance but on my passion (or the extent to which I can fake passion). If you say you went to the beach or went skiing on the weekend you don't get your boss and coworkers looking at you like you need more work to do.

It's like going to college from an extremely oppressive high school and finding you don't have to raise your hand and ask for permission to go to the bathroom anymore. You don't need a note from your parents to take a sick day and as long as your work gets turned in, nobody worries too much about how many hours you study each night.

You're treated like an adult and your time and private life are respected.

And I really think it all goes back to tying health care to employment. The threat of being fired is literally the threat of death for way, way too many Americans and it makes them put up with demands that nobody should have to put up with.

[GliderGuider]

315. +1 What is life about?

As the old quip goes, Nobody lying on their deathbed ever said, "I wish I'd spent more time at the office..."

[Prophet 451]

127. I noticed this too

I'm British but for many years, I worked with Americans in a virtual office for Beliefnet.com (this was before Fox brought it, fired everyone over about two years and sold it on). I noticed, after about six months, that my collegues rarely took vacations. They would routinely be online all or most of the weekend. At the time, I was doing much the same because I loved working there and believed wholeheartedly in what I thought was our mission (helping people meet their spiritual needs and fostering interfaith dialogue and harmony) but it really struck home after Fox took over. It went from being "we're here on weekends because we like and believe in it" to "we're here on weekends because Fox employs one person to do the work of six" (British employment law made it more difficult to do that to me which I stongly suspect is why I was among the first out). In the space of about a year, it went from a great place to work where everyone had assigned roles and were passionate about what we were doing to a crew that was about a quarter of the size, everyone filling multiple roles and working evenings and weekends because you had to in order to meet management's demands.

I notice that this thread has brought out the America First!ers. Which is a shame because it's really about crappy employment practices. Americans get subjected to more crappy employment practices than we do because they've had thirty years of frantic deregulation.

I think it's also because, in the US, getting or holding a job is literally a matter of life and death. If you're not employed, you (as I understand it) don't get healthcare; your unemployment benefits get cut off if you're not lucky enough to get a job in 99 weeks; you get humiliated by being forced to use food stamps. Staying employed seems to be a matter of literal life or death in the US. Now, Britain is getting to be the same way in terms of punishing the unemployed but most of Europe isn't. Maybe that explains things.

[tama]

152. Stockholm syndrom

Learning to identify with the financial terrorists that hold you captive, steel all your time and fruits of labor...

Hypnotized by TV, massmedia and the Eye of the Sauron on top of the pyramid in the one dollar bill, emotionally and physically bruised by the power of Mammon.

It's a collective mental disorder and healing cannot start before individual realizes it's not his fault but as said, collective mental disorder and that if you don't have symptoms of mental disorder in this grazy world, there's really something wrong with you...

[Prophet 451]

154. I think it was Jung...

...who said that a good portion of his patients were not actually ill but suffering a perfectly rational reaction to the time in which they lived. Since I actually am mentally ill, I take some comfort from that remark.

It must be said, our country is getting to be nearly as bad as the US in terms of punishing the unemployed. The idea seems to be that if the unemployed are punished hard enough, jobs will magically appear for them to take.

[tama]

160. Yup

My father was diagnozed with schitzofrenia and granted early retirement, but it was basically from work related stress and all the symptoms went away once he got out of the system. If you feel that you are forced to act against your conscience and heart in a sick environment, you will get ill - physically, mentally and usually both.

That how warped the individualistic (not in the Jungian sense but in the "homo economicus" sense) paradigm in official psychotherapy is. But funnily enough, a friend of mine with diagnose of some mixture of bipolar disorder and schitzofrenia was after a couple of years told by his doctor that he should go and see a shaman... :D

Duh, as I'm sure you know, in some other cultures the symptoms mentioned above are diagnozed as "shaman disease" and turned into highly valued service of the community.

[w0nderer]

132. It's a huge difference working in Europe vs USA

not just more work hours in the US

in the US
employers seem to be considered to do you a favour by hiring you
so if they want more hours out of you, you should be happy

in europe (at least northern parts)
either: you do them a favour by working for them, so they better ask really nicely for more hours

or more middle of the road: it's a trade of time for money
(skill took time to develop, and saves time when working, so skill is a trade of time as well)

my first job in the US the boss said, 'and if you don't work well i'll fire you in a week' at the end of the interview
scared the living hell outta me
i went into instant cover ass mode (which funnily enough is the way to never get a good raise or promotion)

my first job in Europe it was 'welcome, we work till the horn sounds'

[eilen]

137. Damn, tough crowd here. Are Fridays normally so

thin-skinned and assholery?

Anyway, to address your OP and I suppose your attempt at discussion on the effects of being long term unemployed, I am not surprised to hear of people sounding and signaling desperation and PTSD. My FILs company is owned by a Danish outfit and he often goes overseas for work. He says that there are better work conditions, etc. there but when it is time to work they work very hard and have high standards. He is also an attorney but is an executive in the insurance business.

We adapt to crazy untenable situations to the extent when others outside of that experience see us, we can be appalled at the reflection. I see this happen in healthcare all the time.

I hope to travel to Germany some day. But I don't know if it will ever happen. However, I plan to send my son to Europe through an academic program (hopefully before he decides to up and move to NYC) in 2 years. This necessitates me working lots of hours to pay tuition etc. as I don't want him starting his life in debt. In my mind I have a 5 year commitment. Maybe after that, I can travel.

[Divernan]

162. Good plan for your son. I'm sure you'll do a lot of traveling too.

Aside from a couple of trips to Canada, I never traveled abroad until my youngest finished her undergrad degree. Then Mom went to France for two glorious weeks. While my kids were under 21, I worked long hours and there were no vacations of any kind except summer trips to Grandma's. Since that first trip to France, and since my kids grew up, I have traveled to so many marvelous places and had such great adventures - scuba diving on sunken Japanese WW II ships in Micronesia, climbing Mayan pyramids in Central America, observing volcanic eruptions on Montserrat, crazy mad opera in Berlin, outstanding theatre in Dublin, sailing the Leeward Islands, observing a private session of the Irish Senate, to name some highlights. In 2008, the stock market collapse destroyed my retirement savings - I'm just glad I spent what I did on travel, because I would have lost it in 2008 anyway!

So good luck to you, kiddo! Take good care of your health, rent foreign films and travel books at the library,
and make long term plans. Like Blood Mary sang in South Pacific, You gotta have a dream, If you don't have a dream, how you gonna have a dream come true?

[aikoaiko]

139. I guess its not surprisng that there are offputting cultural differences between US and EU

Still our Euro counterparts seek US workers, Euro workers seek out US jobs, US workers seek out Euro jobs, and all is well.

I really cannot defend “Go home and screw your wife or I am going to do it for you." as a better work environment.

[Douglas Carpenter]

144. "working in America is a living hell" from the daughter of a U.S. immigrant I once spoke with

and she was quoting her father. I suppose like the children or spouses in abusive relationships ..they don't even know they are being abused. It's all normal for them and they have no idea that a better life is even possible.

[cali]

146. don't you think that's a bit over generalized?

[Douglas Carpenter]

151. probably

But like many generalizations it has a great deal of truth to it. Even immigrants I know from third world countries are quite surprised to see just how oppressive most work situations in America are these days. Even if I contrast my current situation of living in a U.S. Territory outside of the mainland of the United State with work inside the American mainland - the stress factor is immeasurable less. It is not only political - I suspect it is also cultural. No doubt there are those working in mainland United States who have reasonable jobs they enjoy with reasonable employers. But they are certainly a minority. I don't think it has always been as bad as it is now. The very nature of the new economy and the endless push for the bottom line has created new norms that has made mainstream American working life culture extremely oppressive for the majority. Although, I'm sure many - probably most have been conditioned to blame themselves, It is so sad.

[whathehell]

343. At least we don't put our workers through "bad manager" schools like they do in Japan, LOL

and guess what?...Some people LIKE to work a lot...My spouse works fifty hour weeks.

He also makes a quarter million a year...and he likes it...The time AND the money.:hi:

[whathehell]

344. My spouse of the fifty hour weeks works for a Japanese Pharmaceutical company in America.

They bring over young workers to work in the States for awhile

and many of them get used to what they see as a looser, more

relaxed workplace and don't want to go back to Japan...So much

for all that "Third World Stress" I guess.

[fujiyama]

145. One major issue I see among professionals

is that much of the work in IT and engineering especially are outsourced to third party vendors - staffing firms like Aerotek take a huge cut, while providing garbage for benefits (lousy health plans and little vacation if any meaning any time taken off is unpaid). And of course, there's no recourse for getting let go at a moment's notice. I recently got laid off along with 200 other people as a contractor. And keep in mind this is a company that is doing fine financially. When I was told I had to leave, I asked the manager what was up and why the hell the company would hire someone and then let them go after three months (a time during which internal chaos and confusion prevented management from even making it clear what my responsibilities were). His response was striking - "Oh it's not performance related. We just do stupid shit around here". That afternoon I spoke to one other there - he had worked there for five weeks without being given a single thing to do.

Companies now like to use these contractors on a "contract to hire basis". Basically, it's a nice way to dangle a fucking carrot in front of you. In some cases, the contracts just drag themselves out, well beyond the initial contract basis. This gives no additional stability for the employee. Meanwhile there's no real incentive for the company to hire the person on full time, unless it's clear the person is about to leave and it would be incredibly disruptive to a project.

So, ultimately it's very understanding why this country's workers would behave like an abuse victim - and the crazy thing is that we keep going back for more. We feel guilty taking care of personal errands and dealing with family issues during the day (and of course some services simply aren't open beyond 4 or 5). That's why it's also easier for the republicans to build resentment for public sector workers - because those jobs actually have a set time at which they end. Hell, some even neglect eating meals or eat incredibly unhealthy. Others just get trashed after work.

I don't think the solution is something like Greece. It's obviously proven itself to be unsustainable. But there's certainly a healthier work life balance than what we have here. Germany, France to a lesser extent, and the northern European countries especially, have something much more reasonable. Productivity really hasn't suffered in the Scandanavian/Nordic countries either. They work hard during the hours they're at work. And a lot of vital statistics and QOL indicators are well above ours.

I think even the Japanese (in some ways) have it better figured out. Yes, they work insanely hard, but I think the workers at least feel some sense of permanence and loyalty when they are hired to work somewhere. They also have more national holidays. Here the workers never even gain a sense of loyalty or commitment. People have become so cynical. After all, it's all at will employment anyways. So, every job is just a game of chicken.

[RedRocco]

190. for a temp worker to become a full time worker

the full time employer has to buy the temp workers contract. when I did a stint for labor ready in the 90's it was $8k for a real employer to buy a temp worker from them.

temp places should be regulated tighter, in my opinion. I once worked a temp job for $8/hr that the agency was getting $23/hr for. now Im not against the temp services making a profit but I feel they should limit their cut to 10%. temp agencies are also bad about charging employees tool rental and transportation charges.

[southernyankeebelle]

156. My own son who is a cook is a workaloholic. He thinks he should

be there at work. His wife gets upset because she is the complete opposite. She never stays in a job over a year. My son comes from a family that has a good work ethnics. I told him just work 40 hrs. Sometimes he'll work from 7 in the morning til midnight. He feels this obligation if his wife doesn't show up for her shift then he will work it for her. He gets upset at her when she calls out. He feels it reflects on him. She doesn't get it.

[Name removed]

157. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Divernan]

163. Criticizing TSA and huge corporations is not attacking workers.

no matter how you try to spin it. There is no direct or implied reference to cheap labor. There is much support throughout this thread for humane working conditions, i.e., pro workers.

[Romulox]

170. Every time the OP opens his mouth there is an "implied reference to cheap labor".

The fact that you REFUSE to search on the OP's name but continue to berate me for daring to tell the truth says a LOT.

"There is much support throughout this thread for humane working conditions, i.e., pro workers."

Not from the Original Poster, though. Didya notice that? In fact, he even takes time to trash the UAW in this "pro worker" thread! :hi:

[Divernan]

181. I DID research the OP and found NOTHING to substantiate your attack.

Furthermore, it is considered stalking and against the DU rules to follow a poster around and carryover attacks from other threads.

Elsewhere on this thread you start ranting about John Edwards? You are in a state of confusion, to put it kindly.

And he never trashed the UAW. You are consumed with attacking the OP to the extent that you make no sense.

[Romulox]

185. What tripe. Remembering a poster's previous work is not "stalking"

In fact, you're just blindly attacking me right now, without reason.

"Elsewhere on this thread you start ranting about John Edwards?"

That's because the poster in question has John Edwards as an "avatar" (that means the picture that appears near their name when the post.) I am starting to think you have the images turned off on your browser! :silly:

"And he never trashed the UAW."

You are flat out wrong.

"You are consumed with attacking the OP to the extent that you make no sense."

You've already confused me with another poster, addressing me as if I had made the comments made by "amborin". Any chance that YOU are confused? :hi:

[Divernan]

197. No. His avatar is a photo of actor John Goodman, who played Walter Sobchak

in The Big Lebowski.

[Romulox]

198. No, the poster to whom I made the Edwards remark is "JDPriestly"

He has an avatar of John Edwards.

Anyhow, I think you have confused two or more people in your responses to me. :shrug:

[Divernan]

207. You referred to the "OP", who is NOT JDPriestly.

The OP is Sen. Walter Sobchak.

[Romulox]

238. I was responding to JDPriestly. That's why my post is indented and below his.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1779031&mesg_id=1781503

[Quantess]

252. I fully understand Divernan's confusion.

I also thought you were talking about the OP, Walter Sobchak, the whole time. Anyway, I am surprised the mods haven't deleted your "calling out" messages yet.

[Romulox]

265. That's because this is the *second* subthread dedicated to Divernan's alleged confusion.

The original commented is below and indented from the comments of poster JDPriestly, who uses a picture of John Edwards as an avatar. That's because it was in reply to that poster. That's how this board works, and it's how this board has ALWAYS worked.

At any rate, at this point, with links passed out, and it OBVIOUS that the poster made a mistake, what is accomplished by piling on? Not trying to shed any light on the matter, it would seem. :hi:

[Quantess]

270. I'm not "piling on", I'm just saying that...now I'm confused!

This is getting funny. :D

Oh well, I think we can all give it a rest for the day.

[devilgrrl]

171. I should start a thread about all the Latin Americans I met that have no interest in visiting the US

let alone living there.

:think:

[anarch]

174. hence the term, "shock doctrine"

don't think for a second that it isn't on purpose.

[Name removed]

175. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Divernan]

184. Links? Cites? Anything? Anything? Bueller? Anything?

[Romulox]

186. That's OK. White Knight the Outsourcing Advocate you've never met before

while trashing two posters you have similarly never met.

You're either confused or not being honest. Either way your act is becoming stale! :hi:

[tama]

193. Hey dude, relax

and take it easy. :)

[Romulox]

199. That's excellent advice!

:smoke:

[Divernan]

192. Again: hiring Americans in LA for California jobs is not outsourcing.

[Romulox]

202. Hyundai doesn't make cars in California. nt

[Divernan]

212. This thread is about a Swiss company, not Hyundai, hiring people to work in LA

South Korea is a different country than Switzerland. That is a simple fact. Statement of a simple fact is not sarcasm. It is not a personal attack on you. It is not hostility. It is, simply, a fact.

[Romulox]

241. Right. There is a broader context to this discussion, though. nt

[amborin]

248. LOLOL .....check out those ethical Swiss corporations:

"Nestle and other babyfoods companies have put pressure on governments not to introduce strong codes. Gabon, Pakistan, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Swaziland, Uganda, Uruguay and Zimbabwe came under pressure in 1997 and 1998. “In Zimbabwe, Nestle reportedly threatened to disinvest from the country if strong measures were introduced”, alleged Baby Milk Action."

[tama]

204. Here's a clip

for all American shell shocked employers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOVS_SYyXe8

[Romulox]

266. They should "relax" like you said.

And not take things so seriously! Who cares who wants to outsource whom? CHILL! :hi: :eyes:

[tama]

273. If you really care

you help best when you feel well and let go of anxiety, fear and anger. :)

Letting fear and anger take control is not the warriors way.

[Arugula Latte]

227. I would guess that maybe only in Japan is this condition worse.

You hear about the salarymen sleeping in "drawers" in Tokyo so they don't have to waste work time going home at night...

[theaocp]

235. Quite frankly, I don't like the diss on Detroit.

Memo to all y'all fuckers that know everything you ever wanted to learn about Detroit from Robocop: please shut the fuck up and come visit us. Seriously. :eyes:

[amborin]

247. how 'bout

the diss of UAW workers and products?

and the touting of those super fast assembly lines in Alabama?

[JNelson6563]

256. I know, right?

I am sick of this anti-Detroit sentiment. Of course most people can't fathom the amazing strength to keep getting back up and come roaring back stronger and better each time.

Julie


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKL254Y_jtc

[Romulox]

267. Most of the time a fixation on insulting Detroit = repressed racism.

:shrug:

[klook]

236. I once jokingly said to a colleague I didn't know very well,

"I'll probably just be in the office on Christmas day. You can get so much done without all the distractions." I said it with a straight face, droll sort that I am. She and the other participants in the meeting just looked at me, trying to figure out if I was serious, I guess. This was somebody who I could plausibly see working on Christmas day, so maybe it was a scary look into the mirror for her, I'm not sure. We continued the meeting as though nothing abnormal had happened, but I'm sure we all felt that same chill to the bone for just a second.

In my younger years, I worked many long hours as a matter of course, even in jobs that paid like crap -- partly because I hated my jobs so much I would sometimes get behind and have to put in overtime to meet deadlines, and partly because I thought my employers would eventually reward me for all my hard work.

:rofl:

I am glad that I took a look around many years ago and realized the profound truth in the saying, "No one on their deathbed ever said, 'I wish I had spent more time at work.'"

I provide good value to my employer, but I have learned to maintain a sort of firewall between work and personal life. I don't allow work to make me neglect family, friends, hobbies, volunteer work, and the other good things of life -- except during brief crunch periods.

But I know plenty of people who are in jobs where routinely working nights, weekends, and even during vacations & holidays is considered the norm. I work with people who make a point of mentioning that they emailed somebody about a vital work matter "on Sunday night," or who volunteer to join conference calls during their vacation. When I hear something like that, I always think, "You sap."

I realize I'm lucky to be in a situation where I don't have to be a workaholic, but I also realize that workaholism is something many of us do to ourselves.

[TNLib]

280. I think I'm one of those shell shocked people and I'm gainfully employed.

nt

[JDPriestly]

294. I remember spending a Christmas Eve in the office.

And another employee was surprised to see me there. But I had not choice. I was surprised to see her there. The two of us -- on Christmas Eve working in this lonely office.

My family was so happy when I "retired."

[Romulox]

243. Anyone who advocates for outsourcing in our manufacturing sector has little room

to complain about the insecurity of US workers.

A LOT of people have been suckered by this thread.

[amborin]

246. or touts right to work states and bashes UAW workers, etc:

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1108576&mesg_id=1108652



hurrah for speedups, low wages, and generalized union-bashing

[JNelson6563]

253. I have had so few co-workers or subordinates

that don't even come close to what you describe. A lot of lazy people out there who do the minimum they can. I realize we are suppose to believe every person out there that needs resources is a victim of the system but I have seen many who just don't give a shit and refuse to lift a finger to improve their situations, no matter how many opportunities present themselves.

Julie

[Lions_fan]

262. “Go home and screw your wife or I am going to do it for you.”

CLASSIC!!!! I wish i could tell my boss this when he emails me on my days off

[whathehell]

356. Sounds ugly and abusive...Maybe the guy should have told his boss he'd rather screw HIS wife?

...all assuming said wives want to be "screwed".:eyes:

[panzerfaust]

268. The is a Fear in America which I have found to be lacking in other Western Countries

We are being screwed, and we know it.

If we are lucky enough to have a job, especially if we are older, we will do most anything to keep it (since our retirement funds have basically been stolen).

Psychops is winning: Fear, Fear, Fear ... that's about all one hears from the MSM.

Land of the Free
Home of the Brave

Not for a long time now I observe.

I hope the Swiss hired a few folks.

[lib2DaBone]

275. This has been going on since the "Reagan Revolution" and the PATCO bust.

The Robber Barons have always been out of control. Luckily (eventually) there was someone to reign them in.

Today.. there is no one who will stand up to the Corporate Robber Barons... Media, the White House, Congress.. all corrupt.

[Mimosa]

291. Crude, rude, half literate but they have high self-esteem

Yikes.

I suspect many of the poor people modeled their behavior from television shows. :(

[whathehell]

316. Who are you describing as "crude" and "half literate"

with "high self-esttem"?

I hope it's not Americans as a whole, as you would

have to include yourself, and virtually everyone on DU and

elsewhere as such.

[marlakay]

352. Most americans take pride in working overtime

I have always thought this was crazy and the reason for so much stress and divorce. I just don't see how we can change this...makes me think of those books on slow eating...we need to learn to live slower...

[Bluenorthwest]

358. Sounds like a hellish field filled with less than cosompolitian

minds. They need help to get a cell phone in a country that is not their own, while being executives who make snarks about 'fucking your wife for you', and they think the problems are one sided? "Help me find a place to live, I'm scared of the ethnics" is often the core issue with those from certain, less diverse nations.
In my field, it is fully the opposite. Those who can compete at the highest levels have to come to the US, want to come to the US, need to do so to earn the good money, and very often desire to and do become US citizens. The reverse is almost never true, when we do go to work in Europe, we virtually never stay, and almost always come with 'an American style contract'. Yep. The list of 'Americans who excelled' in my field is filled with asterisks, because many of them are actually Canadian, Australian, British, Spanish, French, you name it. They pass live and work as Americans. And the reverse is never true, because even the large projects in their countries tend to be American projects there to use the space or talent pool.
The characterizations of others by people involved in international business mean far less than the fact that they are here, doing that business. Those who come to a country to profit and yet criticize the people and say 'I will fuck your wife for you' are often just assholes, the sort who come to another country and expect to find their favorite local brands of toothpaste and foods. Those who are quiet certain they are very superior to those whom they still require for the sake of their profit are, to say the least, not always coming from a righteous place. "The natives are jumpy" said the man from Geneva, echoing so many of his Euro ancestors as they also exploited those they see as lessor.
I traveled much as a very young person, and I was always instructed that to expect other countries to be like mine was rude, it was called 'being an Ugly American' and during my adult years, that prize most often goes to Eurozone citizens, known across the world by many lovely pet names. Euro trash being the leading moniker, with damn good reason: 'I'll fuck her for you' says the boss 'and you are traumatized as if your boss was somehow out of line.' Dig that.