Whoa - Google Map of London Riots

[Ruby the Liberal]

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?msid=207192798388318292131.0004aa01af6748773e8f7&msa=0&ll=51.558503,-0.055275&spn=0.114195,0.298691

Looks like half of England is affected right now.

[Safetykitten]

1. Gaaa! Holy cow!

[NYC_SKP]

2. That's what freedom looks like.

Docile acceptance of death by a thousand insults and losses is not freedom.

Painful and awful as these actions may seem, this is what freedom looks like, this is where the return to it begins.

[fascisthunter]

4. very true

[Skip_In_Boulder]

5. Yep and this is what we are seeing in many parts

of the world today. How long will it be until it comes here given the crazy's we have in Congress and among the rank and file Republicans? I am anticipating a very rough ride getting to the 2012 election.

[Armstead]

9. Freedom or crime?

Sounds like a lot of this is just looting and vandalism

[Ruby the Liberal]

11. Pent up anger

Yes, looting and vandalism without a forward message. Will be interesting to see if they can tamp it down, but the protesters WAY outnumber the police.

Edit to add new news link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8630533/Riots-the-underclass-lashes-out.html

[dissidentboomer]

18. When THAT many folks feel a need to loot and riot, WHAT, pray tell, does that tell you? They're not

happy? You think? Now, do you think the UK powers that be have the first idea as to why they are unhappy? It's a message, alright. :rofl:

[Armstead]

20. Protest is not the same as looting, arson and attacks on civilians

The origins may be legitimate but when ordinary people start getting attacked that's counterprioductive.

Could lead to repression and antagonism against participants, instead of the system.

[dissidentboomer]

22. It could but these are the results of a failed economic system and a political system that has

somehow made these people think that it offers them no say. THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS. Ok? I, for one, think that this looks more and more like our future.

[Armstead]

24. I fucking know that....But vilolence is not something to cheer on

One of the reasons the protests against the WTO in the 90's and early 00's were the assholes that engaged in random violence and vandalism, which distracted from the grievances.

[dissidentboomer]

31. I don't defend it but these are the results of corruption and greed.

[newspeak]

81. yeah, and some of the violence was set up

I remember the massive protest in Seattle-a few so-called anarchists did some damage to a McDonalds-the police were firing rubber bullets, using gas-my friend came back after being gassed and was sick for weeks. people were shot with rubber bullets, one doctor had his jaw broken-they shot nuns, mothers, everyone and anyone.

The powers that be have been playing this game for a long time-how to discredit a movement, and they do it so well. We are not in England and I have no clue of the climate now. I do know that violence by provocateurs have been used more than once to discredit a movement. In this situation, could be the protest being used as cover for looters.

[LanternWaste]

69. Well, I think that...

"THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS. Ok...?"

Well, I think that Dr, King and Gandhi had viable alternatives that appeared to be effective in achieving their goals. Other relevant examples too. Many, as a matter of fact.

But I have no doubt that many people will rationalize the current violence as the only valid option to better feed those visceral emotions and dystopic fantasies.

[cali]

47. +1

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Oh it is a shopping ooportunity, com'on

:sarcasm: for those who need it.

[Armstead]

33. There is a lot of shopping going on -- sorry.

While there may be legitimate grievences, I fail to see the constructive purposebof ripping off shopkeepers and terrorizing (and pissing off) ordinary people.

The powers that may be culpable for creating the conditions can afford to get out and safely enconsed away from it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. I stopped asking that question

after the great riot I had EMS side command...

When you are close and personal to a riot... and mostly become a target, you get to understand just how uncontrollable and free of any normal logic they are.

It is a great question but riots are always like this... but the underlying reasons for them, if you do not deal with them... they fester and explode again.

[Armstead]

38. I agree with thevfestering causes

And I realuze the mob mentality takes on a life of its own.

I just have a problem with thosevhere cheering it on, because so many ordinary people are also being hurt by this.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. I never cheer them on

and these days I avoid coverage of them...

I mean one riot, is like any other riot in how they develop.

How they start or why is different from riot to riot... but the reasons for this... I hate to say it... it took long... and I know we will have them here the way things are going . Yes I know a few people here hate predictions, but this is one that goes with the stress we are having as a society.

[Armstead]

42. I wadn't referring to you in that

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. I understand and I agree with you on not cheering them on

[Imajika]

10. Freedom?

This looks like nothing more than an excuse to riot and steal stuff?

What is the "freedom" being represented here? Freedom to break stuff and burn things down?

[NYC_SKP]

19. Are they stealing, or have them been stolen from (like the middle and lower classes here)?

I'm not there, I'm not going to vouch for each and every one of them, but if the government and economy were run fairly and justly, chances are these people could walk into the stores and buy what they cannot afford, having been cheated out of their livings.

[dissidentboomer]

23. This is pure desperation. No way around it. Satisfied people don't do this and I refuse to think

that such a large number of people are just "criminals" or "violent".

[muriel_volestrangler]

63. From a city of about 8 million people, you don't think perhaps 8,000 are criminals or violent?

8,000 is probably an overestimate on the number of people who are trashing the streets - about 10 areas where there's been concerted activity, and normally reported as 2 or 3 hundred at most in each place. But we'll call it 8,000, to allow for some of the smaller scale disturbances - one in a thousand people. You don't think that 0.1% of people are violent? Or criminal?

[dissidentboomer]

82. Ah yes.... and they ALL decided to attack on the same night. LOL!

[muriel_volestrangler]

88. No, over 3 nights - haven't you been reading the news about this?

On the first night, it was in Tottenham (where the protest outside the police station was), and then in Wood Green, about a mile away. The incidents in Tottenham were on the new (on DU, for that matter) before the looting in Wood Green started. So there's no particular surprise that some people decided to loot in Wood Green at that point - either they were people from Tottenham moving to a nearby shopping area for further looting, or they were people who worked out that the local police were too busy in Tottenham to be able to stop looting in Wood Green.

The next day, after this had been the major national story, there was looting in Enfield, perhaps 4 miles away, and also in some further areas, like Ealing and Walthamstow.

On Monday afternoon, trouble started in Hackney; in the evening, in Croydon, Clapham and elsewhere.

So, since it seems you haven't actually been following this, here a summary:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14436499

And there has been a lot on the news about how people have been coordinating the looting attacks - via Blackberry Messenger, and Twitter. I'm sure you can Google that, if you've managed to miss that too.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chrisa]

77. That's total bullcrap.

I absolutely can't stand this justification, that everybody who hasn't been given a fair shake in life is allowed to beat, steal from, or do whatever the heck they want, and that they're just victims fighting the oppressors. This is especially ridiculous since most of the victims of this riot are in the same economic situation as the rioters.

Guess what, there are millions of poor people who work their butts off without running around like animals punching people out or trying to kill them. First you say that these riots are what freedom looks like, and now you say that these are just poor oppressed victims who are owed the items that they're stealing. What about the victims of these thefts? I'm not sure that, after getting the crap beaten out of them during a home invasion (or having their house and livelihood razed to the ground), they would agree. In fact, many peoples' lives were ruined these last few days, and almost none of them are the people that you have a bone to pick with.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. NOt comparing it yet, but we will see, but there was

a riot oh back in Boston in 1774... the jury is still out as to this, but it speaks to how people feel.

[NYC_SKP]

41. Precisamente!

:thumbsup:

[cali]

48. No, it's not. mindless thuggery and attacking random people is not what freedom looks like.

[Zax2me]

66. .

[Zax2me]

67. What?! They are breaking into peoples homes.

They are looting, attempting murder and murder inb the streets.
This is what lawless mayhem looks like.
And looting.
Good grief.

[truebrit71]

72. Freedom from what? Paying for the shit they're stealing?

Gimme a break..

[chrisa]

76. Yep, Mad Max-style freedom. Not exactly something to celebrate.

[Inuca]

79. Freedom?

Really? Have a look at the Guradina interactive map that has replaced the Google linked to in the OP http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2011/aug/09/uk-riots-incident-map, click on a dot to see what happened. Store looted,building on fire, cars set on fire, flats above small independent shops were caught up in the blaze as fire spread from below, etc. This is not freedom, this is distructive anarchy.

[fascisthunter]

3. wow

[WillyT]

6. Oh... Crap...

:shrug:

[marions ghost]

7. Good grief

:wow:

[Armstead]

8. BBC local radio Stations covering it as it spreads

http://tunein.com/radio/BBC-Local-Radio-c467494/

[HipChick]

12. Police are retreating from protestors...they are overrun..they are simply outmanned..

bankers looted the economy, now rioters are looting shops...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4pcbiO4flY&feature=youtu.be

[smirkymonkey]

78. Why can't they get reinforcements from the military?

The entire country could go up in flames if they don't get this under control. I'm amazed at how ineffective they are. Note: I am not advocating more violence or shootouts, but something like water cannons or somthing that will clear the area without more bloodshed.

[grahamhgreen]

13. It can happen here.

[Snoutport]

14. It has happened here...I was in LA for the riots

[Ruby the Liberal]

15. I am just stunned at how quickly this grew as viral as it did.

[lonestarnot]

16. Wow, guess they got sick of the richie rich and austerity bullshit pretty quickly.

[Lifelong Protester]

17. Holy C***!!!

No wonder the PM is on his way back home.

[liberalhistorian]

46. The PM is a major part of the problem right now and I don't

think there's going to be much he can do to keep things under control. He barely won the election last year and that was really only largely because people were disgusted with Labour and not out of any really strong support for Cameron and his party. His draconian slash and burn screw-the-middle-class-and-poor-and-let's-tear-down-the-safety-net-but-protect-the-wealthy-at-all-costs-and-only-demand-that-the-middle-and-lower-classes-sacrifice "austerity measures" both greatly angered citizens and caused protests and riots earlier in the year and weakened him as a leader. And, for the final straw, he's been greatly weakened even within his own party by his cozy association with the Murdochians, including his hiring of a former News of the World head honcho as his communications chief. He has lost most of his credibility all across the board, people know it, and he's not going to be able to stop this, not without drastic, authoritarian measures.

[Lifelong Protester]

49. Oh, absolutely, I think he's for crap as a leader, just mentioning

though that it must be serious if HE is leaving his vacation!!

I do NOT think he will make the situation better, but he ought to be in country when the you know what is hitting the fan.

[suffragette]

21. Found this - still tweeting from Ealing

http://twitter.com/#!/PaulLewis

[Monk06]

25. Time for a Clash reunion. Heavens to 1979 !!!

[tkmorris]

30. Couldn't agree more

[dana_b]

27. yeah - it should now be the UK riots

I've been following this off and on for the last day and it is amazing how it is spreading. I just hope that innocent folks aren't hurt. It looks like some have been lucky to get away. BBC news was talking to a lady who lived in that big apartment building in Tottenham that burned down a couple of nights ago. She barely escaped.

[-..__...]

29. Google Riots?...

We have an app for that.

[HipChick]

32. First the bankers looted the economy, now the people are looting the stores

only seems fair..Cameron cut the police force, and emergency forces

[Nye Bevan]

45. YES, fuck those greedy store owners.

Oh wait....

[JVS]

55. Don't weep for Tesco

[MellonCollie]

68. S/he's probably isn't weeping for Tesco

S/he's probably weeping for all the corner shops and grocery stores that have been destroyed by these fucking scumbags. Shops run by good people who have served their local communities for years.

[MellonCollie]

85. Shops like this...

[socialist_n_TN]

34. I'm ready for it to take on a more political color

(or should that be colour?:)). Right now it's just random as to the politics. The rest of the socialist groups need to do some solidarity things, whether it's demonstrations or strikes. And if you're going to riot and loot, fuck it, loot the banks. They're the ones with OUR money.

[coalition_unwilling]

58. No, if you're going to riot and loot, why you go after the millionaires and billionaires.

Banks as physical repositories of physical currency offer a low cost-benefit ratio. Millionaires' manions, otoh . . . :)

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

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[dana_b]

36. amazing photos, videos and timeline here

http://www.news.com.au/world/london-burns-as-215-arrested-for-rioting/story-e6frfkyi-1226111341895

[socialist_n_TN]

37. That one lady who said when asked why she was

looting that she was "getting her taxes back". There IS a political tinge to this, if for no other reason than the heightened consciousness brought on by recent economic events and debates.

[dana_b]

50. there definitely is

and the Tottenham riots were evidenced by the man who was killed and the 16 y.o. girl who was beat. I am not excusing the idiots who just want to lash out and trash the cities, but there is genuine anger out there at a system that is unjust.

[coalition_unwilling]

59. Of course there is a political tinge to it. It ain't the ruling class that's

rioting; it's the urban proletariat. Now if they can only bring the police and military over to their side. Then it's game, set and match for the billionaires and millionaires.

[socialist_n_TN]

75. I'm not sure they'll be able to bring over the police

but the military? Maybe. It's not going to work as a revolution unless that happens. Of course, this also might just be like 1905 in Russia and just a "dress rehearsal". Either way, it shows the proletariat is fed up with the way things are.

[Armstead]

40. Dupe delete

[socialist_n_TN]

43. I might as well post this here in this thread too

For a commie perspective on the riots:

http://www.workerspower.co.uk/2011/08/tottenham-ablaze-the-anger-is-back/

[dana_b]

51. I linked this

to a friend of mine on twitter and it has caused him some grief tonight (he reposted it). He's up to the challenge though. :)

[socialist_n_TN]

73. Thanks dana. I think that it's important

to show that there IS some political/economic consciousness behind these riots. It's not just totally random.

[Waiting For Everyman]

52. A tweet from Naomi Klein led to a good blog

NaomiAKlein
@PennyRed on #LondonRiots How'd she get so wise? bit.ly/oc3u9r

http://pennyred.blogspot.com/2011/08/panic-on-streets-of-london.html

[dana_b]

60. really good

"People riot because it makes them feel powerful, even if only for a night. People riot because they have spent their whole lives being told that they are good for nothing, and they realise that together they can do anything – literally, anything at all. People to whom respect has never been shown riot because they feel they have little reason to show respect themselves, and it spreads like fire on a warm summer night. And now people have lost their homes, and the country is tearing itself apart.

Noone expected this. The so-called leaders who have taken three solid days to return from their foreign holidays to a country in flames did not anticipate this. The people running Britain had absolutely no clue how desperate things had become. They thought that after thirty years of soaring inequality, in the middle of a recession, they could take away the last little things that gave people hope, the benefits, the jobs, the possibility of higher education, the support structures, and nothing would happen. They were wrong. And now my city is burning, and it will continue to burn until we stop the blanket condemnations and blind conjecture and try to understand just what has brought viral civil unrest to Britain. Let me give you a hint: it ain’t Twitter."

[malaise]

64. Excellent

This deserves its own OP

[upi402]

53. Spain and Italy are real trouble

Greece and Ireland not as serious.

But this... now this is something!

[indurancevile]

54. looks like greater london, birmingham & liverpool to me.

[indurancevile]

56. interesting -- the east end -- the old working class/poor area for 100 years --

is pretty quiet.

i heard it was gentrifying.

[Poll_Blind]

61. K&R!

PB

[FloridaJudy]

62. Holy crap! Islington's burning.

I used to live there. It wasn't a terribly impoverished area, even before it got gentrified.

[lapislzi]

71. I used to live near Fulham Broadway

Same thing. Mixed area, mostly working class, a few nice shops. This is scary.

[FloridaJudy]

84. When I lived in Islington over thirty years ago

It was the same thing: mostly working class, but it was starting to be the place where artists and bohemians lived. We'd discovered that if a whole bunch of people split the rent on one of those huge Victorians, one could live there fairly cheaply. Now it's considered trendy. I expect the working class has pretty much been pushed out by now, which probably didn't make them very happy. London wasn't cheap, even back then.

[Chimichurri]

65. This is A LOT worse than the news said. The man shot by the cops, sparking the riots, has died.

I read this morning they are breaking into homes now.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/world/london-burns-as-215-arrested-for-rioting/story-e6frf7lf-1226111344710

[MellonCollie]

70. That's a different person

The person shot by the police was shot, and died, last Thursday.

[Inuca]

80. Updated Guardian link

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/interactive/2011/aug/09/uk-riots-incident-map (google is no longer updating the link posted in the OP)

[Ter]

83. The people do not want the New World Order of the EU

Time to exit.

[War Horse]

86. Yet people keep defending this for some reason

Any point about how people are destroying their own communities, people being beaten up by mobs, how small family businesses are being destroyed, how people are losing their homes is lost.

I thought Leftism was defined first and foremost by empathy. Tunnel vision seems more important.

[eilen]

87. "London is burning and I, I live by the river!" nt