Nobody cares about the Medal of Honor ceremony?

[LLStarks]

Say what you will about the wars, but this is the first MoH to be awarded to a living soldier since the Vietnam era.

[alanquatermass]

1. Wish I knew more... Who won it, and how...?

I'm sure our fellow DU'ers are every bit as proud of this man (woman?) as we are.

With no caveats or qualifiers, either.

Again, I'd love to know more.

[gkhouston]

12. Rachel Maddow covered the story the day it was announced this soldier would

receive the award. Wouldn't be surprised if she covers it again tonight. It was a guy on patrol in Afghanistan, IIRC. The patrol was traveling single file and he was third in line. The patrol was ambushed, people got shot up, including Sgt. Giunta (the recipient). Despite being wounded in several places, he fired back and scattered the attackers (along with what little remained of his patrol). My recollection is that they were still under fire from a distance, but despite that, he then recovered the two people in front of them, one of whom was in the process of being dragged away by their attackers.

[nmbluesky]

2. I dislike war, but

I care Medal of Honor who save their live..

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

3. I dunno

Being that the soldier himself doesn't seem comfortable with the whole thing, I can't say one way or another.....

But I gotta tell you, why start a thread like this? You know you're opening a door here, right?

[JuniperLea]

7. Why not start a thread like this?

This is pretty big stuff... it's a rare occasion.

I hate war, and these wars in particular because of the lying that started them and the wholesale murder that ensued. That said, if military props are in order, and I believe they are, WTF is wrong with starting a thread?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

10. First off, there are other threads commenting on it

It's not like no one here cares......

But the way the question is posed seems like an invitation for someone to say something stupid. I hope I'm proved wrong. Some people don't have the same sense of decency as you do to salute the individual even though you fundamentally disagree with why he was there.

[Poll_Blind]

4. A MoH, especially one bestowed non-posthumously is a rare sight and...

...worthy of consideration by all of us. To the Right, these unique individuals might represent an apex of a strong America, represented by strong citizens. To the Left, they might be interpreted as selfless heroes or heroines who are willing to sacrifice everything for defense of Liberty.

But they, each of them, should be recalled by anyone of any political persuasion as a person called to duty in defense of the country and selflessly executing that duty without any doubt or hesitation, without regard to personal safety.

And that attitude, not the acts themselves, makes them a rare and limited Treasure our country must use as sparingly as possible and only as a last resort.

For those individuals cannot be replaced so easily, even in a country as large as our own.

PB

[EmeraldCityGrl]

5. I watched the 60 minutes interview with this soldier.

He is a remarkable, humble young man that insists he is not a hero.
True heros never seem to see themselves that way.

[JuniperLea]

8. Well said...

You're right. When you see interviews with WWII heroes, they all say the same thing. I believe you're correct; true heroes never see themselves in that light. All the more reason to give him the award, IMHO.

[Dyler Turden]

31. +1

See. We do agree on things!

[malaise]

69. I watched the ceremony live

Pres Obama deliberately went off script and said I like this man.
I hate war but Sgt. Giunta is a genuine hero.

[WildEyedLiberal]

6. Who won the Medal of Honor?

I haven't seen anything about it on the news today, which is pretty disgraceful. This is the first I've heard of this. I guess Dancing With the Stars is more important to America than soldiers who earn the highest award for valor our country has. :eyes:

[bluedigger]

18. The awards ceremony was broadcast live on MSNBC. n/t

[Rebubula]

24. You are not looking

It is the top story at several sites including CNN and MSNBC.

Of course, they also have the engagement of some English inbred as a top story as well...

[WildEyedLiberal]

50. No, I don't go to news websites, but I check my email at Yahoo and Google both of which have news

Yahoo decided it was more important to inform me of Cheney speaking at the Shrub library dedication than of a soldier who won the Medal of Honor.

[Dyler Turden]

9. I really have to wonder why people are unreccing this thread.

This isn't about the war, it's about the people who are caught up in it. They are victims as surely as others.

[Bluebear]

16. Maybe they're unreccing the negative question in the OP?

In other words, no, I DO care, so unreccing the premise. Just an idea.

[Uncle Joe]

17. I'm not reccing nor unreccing this thread, but I agree with your take on it. n/t

[Parker CA]

11. Watched it. Very cool to see the medal go to a living soldier, especially one so young.

It was a great ceremony.

[TriMera]

13. Rec. This young man is a true hero. eom.

[T Wolf]

14. Regardless of your view of the individual soldier and whatever he did, this still is an illegal,

immoral and obscene war and there should be no celebration of anything except actions that get us out of there.

Medals for these wars is like awarding a marksmanship award to a gang-banger for expertise in a drive-by shooting.

[JuniperLea]

15. Soldiers don't get to choose their wars... gang bangers do...

Soldiers trust their Commander in Chief to do the right thing. Clearly Bush didn't do the right thing, but this guy put his life on the line to save the lives of others. That is an individual act of courage.

I think your analogy is way off base.

[T Wolf]

20. Considering these wars have been going on for almost ten years, I would say that these

soldiers did choose their war.

And, in some areas, young kids do not have a choice as to whether they "join" a gang - probably less freedom of choice than anyone who actively, consciously, deliberately enlists in the military.

As long as there is no draft, the entire military is volunteer and, as such, is responsible for their actions.

"I was just following orders" does not excuse them.

[TriMera]

23. There are many reasons to join the military...

to get a better chance at an education, to receive training for a career, to get out of going to jail, to get away from crappy parents, or because you want think it is the best way to serve your country; just to name a few. I don't believe in these wars either, but the troops are there and, if he saved lives, he deserves deserves this medal. IMO.

[alanquatermass]

26. Damn right. Too many people on these boards...

-- seem to be looking upon these brave men and woman ONLY as victims. And you can argue that they're that too, occasionally, and in these particular wars for sure.

But they are warriors first.

And the fact is -- as much as some of us would love to deny it -- there are some very, VERY dangerous people in this world, outside the United States, and some of them have armies. And I don't know about you, but I'd hate to live in this country for 17 goddamn MINUTES without a fully functioning military that was ready, and able, to defend it.

Without them, we'd be done for.

[RaleighNCDUer]

33. You think 15% unemployment might have something to do with why

someone would enlist during wartime?

[alanquatermass]

34. No doubt there are many different reasons for wanting to enlist, but my best friend...

-- from high school -- who comes from a well-to-do family, by the way -- first went to West Point and then, upon being commissioned, volunteered for duty in the first Gulf War, with no regrets.

He simply wanted to serve.

So let's not forget that there are many people in the U.S. Military who genuinely believe in defending our shores.

And don't kid yourself, these shores need defending.

[RaleighNCDUer]

37. Oh, I don't doubt it. I enlisted in the Marines myself,

though I did wait until we were out of Vietnam first. I really thought that illegal war was an aberration. Some of the guys from my boot platoon were in on the Mayaguez operation - and that is what I thought, and still feel, we should be all about. Being the good guys.

[alanquatermass]

38. Amen! And by the way, Thank you for your sevice!

My wife and I (not to mention our cat!) can only sleep safely because of men, and women, like you.

[bluedigger]

19. Not even close.

[alanquatermass]

22. Interesting, Wolf -- so if you found yourself sitting next to this man at a dinner party --

-- would you treat him the way you would a gang banger?

In other words, Wolf, would you treat him the way you'd treat a CRIMINAL? Because isn't that, by definition, what all drive-by shooters are -- criminals?

I am genuinely interested, Wolf: Would you reprimand him? Ignore him? Change seats? Leave the party?

And here is the answer I expect from you, Wolf (if you're even bold enough to answer it at all): Essentially the cop-out, "It's a stupid question. Why would I be sitting next to him at a dinner party?" or some variation thereof. Whatever -- it will be some cowardly, sniveling, dodging of the issue.

[T Wolf]

25. All of us had had many opportunities to speak out on an issue to others and, for various reasons

(family peace, job security, etc.) have chosen not to "rock the boat" at that particular moment. In other words, it is not always necessary to speak one's mind.

The fact that I would simply ignore this man if I was put in such a situation is far different than celebrating his participation (no matter what his actions) in the most destructive killing organization the planet has ever known.

I will never back down from my view that these wars are wrong and anything that continues them (whether that thing is an individual soldier killing (or even saving) people or a President who accelerates the war-machine or a Congress that goes along with a lie) is just plain wrong.

Period.

And I will not apologize for that belief.

[alanquatermass]

28. Well Wolf, you fooled me: I did not expect such a forthright reply...

-- so if there is one thing about you I respect, it is your honesty.

And absolutely nothing else.

It is our men and women in uniform (like the Medal of Honor winner you would so willingly snub at the party) who are protecting your freedom to be so candid on these boards -- indeed, who are protecting your freedom to call them "the most destructive killing organization the planet has ever known." (And by the way, Hitler, Stalin and Mao will be thrilled to know they are now in second place!)

I hope you'll think about that.

[superduperfarleft]

71. How are they "protecting our freedoms?" n/t

[proteus_lives]

41. Wow.

"in the most destructive killing organization the planet has ever known."

That historical ignorance burns.

[alanquatermass]

45. It burns me up too...

But you'll notice we don't see him DEFENDING that statement, Proteus, because he CAN'T. There is no coherent rationale behind it. No logical thinking, just venom.

It is one thing to call our campaigns in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan misguided -- an assertion I would agree with -- and quite another to call America's military "the most destructive killing organization the planet has ever known."

Remarks like that are lunacy of the first order.

[proteus_lives]

48. Yep.

History is so important for understanding situations today.

I can think of a dozen more destructive organizations off the top of my head from 1900-2000 alone and if going back further makes the list much, much larger.

I view comments like he made as another form of American Exceptionalism. If we're not the best then we're the worst. It's very silly.

[alanquatermass]

49. Beautifully put!

For some (many), if there's ever any problem -- of any sort -- anyplace in the world -- you can bet your bottom dollar that the U.S. is behind it.

Somehow.

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. Bingo and I am willing to give that honor

to a mythical army for starters... the one that "liberated Cannaan..." and engaged in a campaign of ethnic cleansing. just to piss off a few bible thumpers!


:-)

Hey everybody needs a hobby.

Of course in the real world a certain campaign of genocide using machetes not too long ago, made us look like rank amateurs.

[proteus_lives]

64. Or the semi-mythical one that put Troy to the sword.

Yep, Rwanda.

And a few years before that there were a bunch of Serb militias that made any US behavior look like a rowdy tea-party.

[Jokerman]

27. I'm with you Wolf.

I refuse to celebrate any part of these wars or their participants.

[alanquatermass]

29. How sad for you. Hope you'll read what I just said to Wolf...

-- and maybe give it some thought.

[Jokerman]

35. Sad? Don't bother.

Save your sadness for the real victims of the military-industrial complex.

I don't buy into the myth and idolization of military service and I never will.

[alanquatermass]

36. Great! I'm not buying into the myth of military service, either...

-- but let's talk about the reality of it. And the reality is, without a functioning military we'd be screwed. Agree or disagree?

And if you disagree... WHY for God's sake?

Please try, without being evasive or answering a question with a question, to address yourself to one, single query: Hasn't history shown, time and again (e.g., Hitler, Stalin, Al Quaeda etc.) that there are people in the world who wish to harm us?

[LanternWaste]

43. Realizing the necessity of an armed force

I would imagine that realizing the practical necessity of an armed force within a culture and realizing that that armed force may be engaged in an arguably immoral war are two wholly and separate conversations.

It may be argued just as validly that Italy needed an army in the late thirties also. All things being equal, what they did with that army, and the awards and medals won in Italy's conquest of Albania and Ethiopia are not part and parcel of that initial conversation.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

44. America's military is dozens of times larger than is needed for self-defence.

There are undoubtedly *people* in the world who wish to harm America. The army is basically useless for stopping them; it's the police, FBI and CIA who do that.

An army a tiny fraction of the size of your current one would be enough to make you entirely safe from attack by *nations* or *armies* (which are the things that an army is useful protection against), given your possession of nuclear weapons.


The only reason for America's massive military spending is its habit of sending troops overseas to fight in wars that have nothing to do with protecting it from attack. Sometimes - as in the case of Serbia - I think that's the right thing to do; other times - as in Iraq and Afghanistan - I think it isn't. But it should be clearly and unabiguously acknowledged that America's army is almost entirely for attack rather than for defence.

[PavePusher]

59. Bullshit. Your ignorance is hanging out in public. n/t

[Donald Ian Rankin]

68. As is your inability to provide anything other than unsupported denial. N.T.

[Jokerman]

70. Hitler has been dead for over 60 years...

and Stalin died in 1953 so using them as boogiemen to justify the American war machine of 2010 is disingenuous at best.

I would argue that more recent "threats" in such places as Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran are actually a product of years of reckless and corrupt policies on the part of the U.S. government. The military buildup of WWII made a select few people very rich and most every threat since then, from the cold war to the so-called war on terror, has been manufactured to keep the money flowing.

I've never said that we don't need a functioning military so that straw man won't stand. Protecting our country is an honorable goal that could be done for a fraction of the current military budget. Using lies and manufactured evidence to justify invading and occupying a foreign country that poses no immediate threat is a criminal act that stains the hands of everyone who participates.

[Catherina]

30. +1 n/t

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PavePusher]

73. Odd, I guess calling vile filth out is verboeten. Whodathunkit.

Whatevah, my previous comment still applies.

[PavePusher]

74. Deleted, double post. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. I even posted a thread

[Catherina]

32. Nope. Not interested in any glorification of these wars n/t

[obxhead]

39. I would care a great deal if it was being awarded for the soldier

standing against these senseless and illegal wars.

[Better Believe It]

40. Nope. Many Vietnam war vets took all their medals and threw them over the White House fence

[proteus_lives]

42. Some care.

This site did a post for him.

http://www.badassoftheweek.com/giunta.html

[alanquatermass]

47. Proteus ROCKS!

nt

[Texasgal]

46. I do...and I watched it.

:shrug:

[tinymontgomery]

51. I've meet 9 MOH recipients personally

Had them speak at a yearly ceremonies I held plus at other events. When they speak they are very humbly about the award. Had 6 come to my house for dinner and they are a riot. Lots of fun, laughter and a good time. NEVER at that time do they speak about what they did or how happy they were to receive it or what fun it was. All were from the Korea or Viet Nam war. Two were in the battle that was made into the movie "we were soldiers" they said it was close to the truth. I've never had so much respect for these men as after I've met them. These men didn't care about politics at the time so I for one will honor them. Those that fight battles to not not have war I will also honor but in a different way.

Great page on the MOH: http://www.homeofheroes.com/

[WildEyedLiberal]

52. This thread really exemplifies what is wrong with DU

And why I don't think any of the recent changes are going to do a goddamn thing to help. No site devoted to mainstream Democratic politics would compare a Medal of Honor winning soldier - who received his medal trying to SAVE his fellow soldiers - to a GANGBANGER. This is repugnant. If I wanted to read bullshit ANSWER spew, I'd go to any other number of websites that cater to that crap. Clearly DU has decided that it's not a place for actual Democrats any more.

[proteus_lives]

53. Sad, isn't it?

I'm against the war too but I'll damned if I ever compare a MOH receiving soldier to a gangbanger.

It's simply missing the point and it's cruel.

Are we so jaded, partisan or divided that we can't raise a metaphorical glass to a brave man?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

54. It's why I asked "Why bother posting this thread?"

It's a open casting call for contrarian stupidity.

[alanquatermass]

55. I hear ya, Proud, but we can't go letting the "contrarian idiots" of the world...

-- set the agenda.

[PavePusher]

60. It's not a bad thing for assholes to publicly reveal themselves.

Just makes it easier to avoid stepping in their shit.

[alanquatermass]

56. WildEyed: It is BEYOND pornographic...

-- WAY beyond.

The word "vile" doesn't describe it, either.

[Kaleva]

61. +1

[flvegan]

62. I watched the brief bit that was on the news tonight.

I really had no idea this was going on. However, the man is an absolute hero. I found myself talking back to the tv when they showed Obama speaking and he said that it was "his privilege" to give him this award. Yes, Obama, it is.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

63. Anyone that saw this soldier interviewed on 60 Minutes

would feel nothing but compassion and respect for him.
He's not the macho, kill the ragheads mentality that I have
come to despise. He referred to himself as a mediocre soldier.
I distinctly got the impression he thinks this war is bullshit
and all he cared about was his fellow soldiers.

I hate the military and the pro-war mentality that has
saturated our culture, but this man is a wonderful
human being. He knows he's being exploited by the
hero worshipping imposed on us and when interviewed
made it clear he did not see himself as a hero.

Maybe if in the next few years if enough soldiers find the
courage to call this bullshit war for what it is something
will change. Unfortunately we have a an economic draft.
there are so few career opportunities for young people
this is the only choice they are left with. They certainly
can't depend on us for change. We have failed miserably
to do anything dramatic enough to end the wars. Now that
Obama has escalated the war in Afghanistan even Dems
have toned down their opposition.

[bullwinkle428]

66. He's from my area of residence, and I totally get the same impression

as well! Plenty of local media pieces on him as you'd imagine, and he seems so genuine and sincere in the feelings toward his fellow soldiers, and how that was the absolute driving force behind his actions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. You mean like all CMH winners he was humble

and spoke about accepting the award for all those who have gone before him, or who deserved it far more?

See, this is the great misconception, outside the movies (and these days video games) and with the exception of very few troops, people do and die and never question why. Some things never change.

If I may regale you with a little personal experience... perhaps it will give you an insight into this.

We were sent to a major shoot out.

When we got to scene you had both cops and drug dealers still exchanging fire, with nothing less than AK -47s and full auto M-16s. In the middle of that mess was a casualty. I asked for some body armor and crawled in there to drag that idiot out. Yes, mosquitoes flew over me, and to this day I remember and hate fireworks.

Long story short, he lived, and my hands were trembling on the way to the hospital. I was told by my CO that I had done the most stupid (correct) and heroic (I like stupid, fits better). thing he'd ever seen and he was putting me in for a medal... a valor medal. In reality it was the hight of stupidity, youth invincibility and the belief that nothing can kill ya. So I asked and begged not to. We had a long discussion on the way back to the Police Station to first return the armor... and then to the station.

Oh and the cops were also going, why? So I pointed to a silly patch on that uniform and mentioned one word, that escapes most people, not them. DUTY.

In the end he did not, he liked my reason. I'd have to explain to my mother the meaning of that piece of tin. Most people who do stupid things like that, and earn medals, know full well that somebody else deserves it far more... and that truth be told, others will do it too. And truth be told the cops giving cover fire, one in the open deserved it more than I did, ironically he also refused it, from the department. It was contagious I think.

That is what is going on. And the Staff Sergeant is speaking of things that are very common in the military. There is an old saying from Normandy. For each CMH there were ten not awarded, for each bronze star, there were ten not awarded and so on.

[PavePusher]

72. If you were to drop your "hate" of the military...

"I hate the military and the pro-war mentality that has
saturated our culture, but this man is a wonderful
human being. He knows he's being exploited by the
hero worshipping imposed on us and when interviewed
made it clear he did not see himself as a hero."

...and get out to meet some of them, you'd probably find that this mans attitude is the norm, not the exception.

Posts like your, whether intentionally or not, seem to lay blame for the wars on the individual troops at the point of the spear, when in reality, all the control is in the hands of the sitting President and Congress. Both of which have had Dem control for two years now. Find your government reps, horsewhip them into submission and place the blame where it belongs.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

76. My son has several friends in the military.

When they're home on leave and come over I hear plenty.
I know what good kids they are and most of them i've known
for most of their lives. But, I also hear the hate and garbage
that has been drilled into their minds.

In my post I clearly place the blame of a decade of war partially
in the hands of the people and state we have failed to take a
strong enough stand against the wars. I'm sorry I didn't spell
that out simply enough for you to understand that includes
demanding our elected officials are held accountable.

Individual soldiers were profoundly instrumental in helping
end the Vietnam War. To quote one soldier "we truly believe
what would stop that war is when soldiers stopped fighting it."
And they did.

Lastly, I hate the military, not the soldier. You have a problem with that ?
To Bad.

Watch the film "Sir! No Sir!"
http://www.sirnosir.com/

[ProudDad]

78. The Universal Soldier

He's five foot-two, and he's six feet-four,
He fights with missiles and with spears.
He's all of thirty-one, and he's only seventeen,
Been a soldier for a thousand years.

He'a a Catholic, a Hindu, an Atheist, a Jain,
A Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew.
And he knows he shouldn't kill,
And he knows he always will,
Kill you for me my friend and me for you.

And he's fighting for Canada,
He's fighting for France,
He's fighting for the USA,
And he's fighting for the Russians,
And he's fighting for Japan,
And he thinks we'll put an end to war this way.

And he's fighting for Democracy,
He's fighting for the Reds,
He says it's for the peace of all.
He's the one who must decide,
Who's to live and who's to die,
And he never sees the writing on the wall.

But without him,
How would Hitler have condemned him at Dachau?
Without him Caesar would have stood alone,
He's the one who gives his body
As a weapon of the war,
And without him all this killing can't go on.

He's the Universal Soldier and he really is to blame,
His orders come from far away no more,
They come from here and there and you and me,
And brothers can't you see,
This is not the way we put the end to war.

[TransitJohn]

65. Not really.

Poor guy and his friends shouldn't be where they are, but I don't partake in the United States' military fetish too awful much.

[thelordofhell]

75. I thank the lord that this was President Obama awarding the medal

If it was President bush awarding it, it would have been a huge, wasteful pomp and circumstance ceremony created to put a good light on bush. Instead we got the ceremony we should get for something like this......humble, respectful and quiet.

God bless our troops, God damn our wars.

:patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot: :patriot:

[ProudDad]

77. Nope. It's just another device to glorify war... (n/t)

[ctaylors6]

79. It's the first thing I told my kids about this morning at breakfast

"Every single person I was with would have done what I did, possibly even better, but they were doing other things," said Staff Sgt. Salvatore Giunta.

I like my kids to have balanced, understanding views of the wars. I want them to understand the full gravity, and that includes soldiers risking their lives while serving. One of my children studied American history last year, including a special project on all major wars. He had learned about the various military medals/honors. I thought it was interesting that a Medal of Honor was awarded to a living soldier.