Excuse me for being patriotic

[LynneSin]

Yes this country is flawed beyond belief and do try a little bit everyday to make it a better place. I know that my country is not better than others and expect God to bless other nations as equal as ours. But if I had to do it all over again I would still live in the USA.

But I still love my country. I still believe in USA and for those of you who feel being negative is the way to go don't let the door hit you on the ass as you flee to Canada. And btw, that's not saying Canada is somehow less. It's just saying that those who feel they should just run instead of fight well I can't be bothered with them.

[sufrommich]

1. I agree with you,Lynn. nt

[uppityperson]

2. unrec for bashing people who feel negative about the USA or chose to move away

You say you are "patriotic" yet bash those "who feel being negative is the way to go", wishing pain upon them as they "flee to Canada". You can't be bothered with those who feel they should "just run instead of fight".

Unrec for pseudo patriotism.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

9. "love it or leave it" does not seem "patriotic" to me, no matter who says it

[Skittles]

10. it isn't patriotic

because it leaves out the option of improving America

[Ishoutandscream2]

14. +1.

[Zhade]

114. Nicely said.

NT!

[laughingliberal]

17. A particularly nasty RW talking point in the 60's. Favorite bumper sticker of Klansmen & Birchers.

Absolutely disgusting. Was used constantly against us in the fight for equality for minorities and women.

[AsahinaKimi]

19. +1

Never thought I would see that here. Surprises every day! mainichi ohatu!

[Skittles]

22. you are referring to the OP, right?

I'm just rephrasing the mentality of the original post :o

[laughingliberal]

37. Yes, I'm agreeing that's the message of the OP.

Just adding a little context. :hi:

[Shell Beau]

31. You never thought you'd see someone post that they are happy

to be an American at DU? REally? WTF?

[uppityperson]

41. America, love it or leave it.

[Shell Beau]

45. No, not really. See that is the beauty (that I CAN STILL SEE) of this

country. You can hate it and say it loud and proud as much as you want to. For all those who keep posting "love it or leave it", really, it is old now. No one said that. No one implied that. People want to read into it what they will. BTW, what are some things you do love about this country?

[uppityperson]

46. If I feel negative about how things are going, I am free to "flee to Canada".

That is what Op said that we are taking offense over.

"for those of you who feel being negative is the way to go don't let the door hit you on the ass as you flee to Canada. "

[Shell Beau]

47. Well, I read it differently than you did.

Of course there are negatives here. Negatives in each and every country on this planet. But quite honestly you see people posting here all of the time that they'd rather live in Canada or wherever. Instead of being willing to want to be here and fight for this country, so many are willing to give up and go elsewhere. Or at least say they are. I actually believe many just say it to say it. IT gets you points here at DU for whatever reason. I can only assume, she was referring to those who always bitch and want to leave, but choose to stay to continue to bitch. And of course being an American, that is well within their rights.

[uppityperson]

55. I'd rather live elsewhere but am staying and fighting.

I'd like to give up, am tired of living in a country where the Almighty Dollar is worshiped, and what (culturally) is important isn't. I'm tired of living in a country where so many other people fear and hate me (and others) and would love to deny me (and others) basic rights.

I would love to move, am not posting where as that is not for public consumption, to a place where I could get health care at least. I would love to live in a country where watching tv ads is not considered a quality thing to do. I would love to live in a country where news media actually reported the news, and where many are involved with politics from local to national.

I tire of having to support Dems who sell out, imo, rather than actually do what I want them too, and having to support them because they are not as awful as the alternative. I tire of living in this country, yet stay and try to do what I can. I can very well understand why others tire and move. Very well. I will not insult them, will not tell them "don't let the door hit you in the ass".

[Shell Beau]

58. Unfortunately, we as a people of this country are divided in where

we want this country to go. But to me, that means fighting harder. And I appreciate you and others being willing to do that. This country deserves that. Our people deserve that. But on today of all days, I will find the beauty of this country and where we have come since we began. There is a beauty here. It may be hidden at times, but it is there. We can't lose sight of it. Especially when we have all kinds of people dying across the world. JMO.

[uppityperson]

62. My grandparents immigrated, I can understand why they did. I can understand

why people do now. I will not say "don't let the door hit you on the ass" like OP does. I appreciate and respect those who continue to work to try to make things better, but I also understand and respect those who tried and tired and moved on.

[Shell Beau]

67. I can't see that. Sorry. Much of my family also came here.

I also have many who were native to this country in my family. However, you can't tire out. You just can't. It shouldn't be an option. If you move elsewhere, there will still be fights to fight. I ain't giving up. No way. No how. Just me though. But if you do tire out and leave, fine. But IMO, you can leave the bitching to a minimum because you weren't willing to fight it out. Maybe it is in my DNA to be a fighter. But I am to the bone. And I am not giving up on this country. There are too many wonderful things about it. Too many people died trying to make it better than other countries. And I will continue to fight that fight too.

[uppityperson]

76. Well, tell your ancestors they were wrong. I'm NOT telling you to give up, just

have some respect for those who do tire and move on. Continue to fight if you want to, but unless you are willing to tell your ancestors they were wrong for immigrating, don't give anyone else the "don't let the door hit you in the ass as you flee" crap line.

Do what you want. But realize that each of us has a line and respect those who decide to take the battle elsewhere.

[G_j]

143. how long have you been fighting?

It makes a difference you know. If you are near 60 yrs old, I'll cut you some slack.

[Shell Beau]

146. If I were near 60, I'd see a lot of the fruits of my labor.

Many a changes. Many. I bet MLK would agree. Look at Obama.

[G_j]

149. well you seem to have little understanding

of what it is like to fight hard for many decades.
BTW, MLK Jr. was passionately anti-war, and no doubt would be heart broken today.

[Shell Beau]

155. Well, we certainly can't speak for him. I think he'd be heartbroken at

many things, but be joyful at many others. I bet at that time, he was one of the few who could foresee a black president of this country. So, yeah if I am going to imagine what he'd feel in these days, I think he'd be happy to see many things and unhappy at others. I think that goes for just about everyone in this country. But, boy what a difference 40-50 years have made. Few when you think about the starts of many of the other "big" countries. Still, 50 years is a long time. I think MLK Jr. would think he certainly made a difference.

[G_j]

160. he made an incredible difference

He was, in my opinion, possibly the greatest leader in America's history.
However, for a while now things have been sliding away. The ever growing gap between the rich and poor for instance, the huge prison population, the militarization of foreign policy. I'm sure he would have recognized his part in preparing America for a black president. I would only suggest that someone read his many words to decide for themselves what he might think and say today.

And, I would highly suggest that, because it is really powerful, life changing stuff.

[Name removed]

171. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

174. Oh, aren't you cute? "flame bait shit stains", awwwwww

Indeed. You either LOVE it like it is or LEAVE it! Rah rah rah we're number one!!!!1111

[AsahinaKimi]

51. You certainly took my post wrong..

But hey, thats all part of the fun here, isn't it? I agreed with what laughingliberal posted. Its very simple.

[Shell Beau]

53. Sorry if I misread it. Please explain to me what you meant, if you will.

[AsahinaKimi]

56. Did you read her post?

The kind of people who used "Love it or Leave it", it being the USA, are those who used it against Minorities (of which I am one) and Women (of which I am one).


Those women who complain they don't get equal pay for equal work were simply told by right wingers, that if you don't like how the system is now, then get the hell out of the country.


Those Minorities who were told that if they didn't like how they were being treated, should do the same.


This is not difficult to understand.

[Shell Beau]

60. Of course I read it. She said those not willing to fight yet bitch and moan should leave.

See? Big difference.

[AsahinaKimi]

64. Guess I didn't read it that way

Forgive me if the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end when I hear Democrats using that phrase, when Republicans been speaking that crap for years.

[Shell Beau]

71. And my hairs on my neck stand up too when a long time DUer, and

I am guessing a good democrat gets compared to the KKK or a freeper troll.

[AsahinaKimi]

72. You keep using those terms

I haven't seen anyone else use those. I wouldn't if I were you.

[Shell Beau]

82. And why is that? And yes someone did say

this kind of response is what a right winger would say and that a klansman said. Read on. You'll see it. But thanks for the advice. Didn't want it or need it though.

[AsahinaKimi]

91. You know it is

against DU rules to call someone something like KKK or a Freeper troll right? But, ya know, just carry on.


may as well say it..

IBTL

[Shell Beau]

94. Yeah, I know the rules. I've been here, well longer than you.

lol! Keep on educating me Ms Kimi! I don't know how I'd get along on DU without your guidance. What did I do for those 3 years before you came? God help me.

[AsahinaKimi]

99. SO Now you are calling me out..

Lovely, and ..reported. Thanks for playing..

[Shell Beau]

100. lol! Thanks!

[laughingliberal]

126. Well, that's the point this poster is missing. I didn't call anyone KKK or anything else.

I said the OP was using the same talking point the Klan and the Birchers were using against liberals in the 60's and 70's.

[AsahinaKimi]

132. I totally understood what you said

and no you were not calling anyone that. But apparently there are people who like playing with matches to see how much of a fire they can start. ai yaaaaaaaaah :(

[laughingliberal]

140. Indeed. nt

[laughingliberal]

123. I said, "don't let the door hit you on the ass as you flee to Canada"

is the same RW slogan the Klan and Birchers were using against my family and others fighting the civil rights battles in the 60's and 70's-"America-Love it or Leave it! And it is. Now, it's being used by Democrats against other Democrats who are 'negative.' Well, we were pretty 'negative' about things were back then, too. And the RW felt we should take it as it was or leave. We didn't. And I'm not going to now. Not because I wouldn't like to but because there is now no way to emigrate at my age and my stage of financial ruin. So, no choice but to stay and fight. Fighting means we might be 'negative' sometimes.

[uppityperson]

70. No, she said "for those of you who feel being negative is the way to go don't let the door hit you."

"for those of you who feel being negative is the way to go don't let the door hit you on the ass as you flee to Canada."

I am negative about what is going on, so I should flee to Canada, guarding my ass on from the door.

[Shell Beau]

30. Ridiculous to compare what the OP said to anything a klansman said.

Really.

[laughingliberal]

40. "you who feel being negative is the way to go don't let the door hit you on the ass"

RW reactionary TP right down the line. "America, Love it or Leave it!" Used by Birchers and Klansmen in the 60's/70's as a way to say STFU to those, like my family, working in the movements for rights for minorities and women. Never thought I'd see Democrats spewing it.

[Shell Beau]

43. Pretty sure she wasn't saying love it or leave it.

From what I read, I got that she was saying she loved it regardless of the faults it has. And it was also, I am guessing, a response to all the negative posts about this country on the day we celebrate this country. But saying that must mean I am some right wing free republic troll because I am not as far out as others. Good God that is tired.

[laughingliberal]

65. This is the quote from the OP, copied and pasted.

"I still believe in USA and for those of you who feel being negative is the way to go don't let the door hit you on the ass as you flee to Canada."

Whatever the intent, it is still the same STFU and get out that those of us who were 'negative' about the lack of equality for all in this country heard from the RW in the 60's/70's. It is 'love it or leave it' redux. I think people should not use the same TP against members of the party with whom they don't agree as the right has used against all of us for decades. As for the patriotism thing, 'patriotism' has always been a code word on the right for telling liberals to STFU. FFS, have we already forgotten the Bush years?? Did we not all know in the Bush years that standing up for what's right is not unpatriotic? Did we not know that telling the truth about our country is patriotic? When the country is doing 'negative' things it is not unpatriotic to say so. Dissent is patriotic.

But now, not just standing up to the PTB, but 'being negative' is unpatriotic and we're supposed to not let the door hit us in the ass as we flee to Canada? There is a reason why Samuel Adams called patriotism the last refuge of a scoundrel.

[uppityperson]

73. Thank you, good explanation of why this rubs wrong. eom

[AsahinaKimi]

77. +100

Totally agree.

[uppityperson]

89. No one said you are a rw freeper troll. WHERE is that?

If you mean this... it doesn't call you a "right wing free republic troll".

"America, love it or leave it"

"A particularly nasty RW talking point in the 60's. Favorite bumper sticker of Klansmen & Birchers. Absolutely disgusting. Was used constantly against us in the fight for equality for minorities and women. "

[Shell Beau]

92. Didn't say I was called that. I told people to feel free to call me that.

And yes, that post there does imply something. If you don't see it, it is because it wasn't directed to you.

[uppityperson]

95. you are right, I misread. eom

[Cleobulus]

50. Why not, whats the difference between being "Proud to be an American" and saying...

you are "Proud to be White"?

[Shell Beau]

52. How do you even answer that?

Being white, I am pretty much talking about myself and something I can't even control. Being an American, I can, as a voter of this country, control to an extent what goes on in this country. And it isn't so much about being proud to be an American. It is about being proud of what this country has accomplished in such a short time. Doesn't mean there isn't a long way to go. And I am proud of this country. No one will take that away from me. We aren't perfect. There is so much to work on. But I am willing to work on this country because I am proud of it. BEcause it deserves to be worked on. There are some ugly things about this country. And I do bitch about those things, but I also continue to work on those things, and I can still see the beauty of this country and what it was founded on.

But it is a cheap shot to compare what a good democrat has to say to what some racist asshole said. Really.

[Cleobulus]

87. You can't control being an American, unless you are naturalized...

Also, what does it mean to be "proud of your country"? I'm truly puzzled by this, it has nothing to do with what the country does, or anything of that sort, but rather why you are proud of lines that were arbitrarily drawn on a map? That I don't understand.

[Shell Beau]

97. If you don't understand it, I doubt I can help you to understand it.

We see it differently. I am proud of this country. Very proud. We set a standard for other countries. Maybe we are falling down on that standard now, but that means we need to fight harder. Put our time, money, and efforts where our mouths are.

[Cleobulus]

104. OK, never mind, I hate talking to nationalists. n/t

[Shell Beau]

106. Um, ok.

:hi:

[Cleobulus]

107. I will say this though, anyone who dismisses others based on nationality...

or where they live, alone, is a fucking bigot.

[Shell Beau]

110. Obviously you don't know me. And I am guessing that is a good thing.

If I am a bigot because I care more about what Americans think of the country they vote in, live in, thrive in, then call me a bigot. Doesn't mean that I don't think other people's opinions don't matter, but hey, you ain't living it. So you can preach your ass off about how horrible this country is, but if you don't have a clue other than what you see on the news, then hell yeah I can make that statement without being a "bigot". That is ridiculous. But this is what DU has become lately. Sad really.

[uppityperson]

111. Too bad we are talking about "patriotism" not "nationalism".

[Shell Beau]

112. I am sure I've been called worse at this lovely site.

[uppityperson]

168. FLDCVADem or soleil? Outed.

[Cleobulus]

113. I didn't say anything about this country, in case you are wondering...

national shame makes as little sense as national pride.

I'm commenting on your nationalistic posts, which are frankly disgusting and disturbing.

[Shell Beau]

115. Yes!!! Love it!

:eyes: Please. Quit with that already. Really it is old and tired by now. It is still false, and no matter how many times you post it, it doesn't make it true. Save yourself the trouble.

[Cleobulus]

116. Why are you getting all worked up, hell, I'm trying to keep things at least abstract...

you are the one making things personal. Why tie yourself into knots when someone in Australia made an apparently accurate observation?

Also, why are you so defensive?

[Shell Beau]

119. Hello? You called me a bigot? What do you mean "why am I getting

all defensive"?

[Cleobulus]

122. You made a bigoted remark, are you going to claim it wasn't bigoted? n/t

[Shell Beau]

124. I am done. I am not a bigot, nor was anything I have said bigoted.

You see things one way, I see them another. The end. :hi: It was fun while it lasted (not).

[Cleobulus]

128. Again, I'm mystified that you can't even recognize why what you said...

was so ugly.

[uppityperson]

117. not worth it.

[Shell Beau]

118. You're right. I went from not posting at DU to posting a buttload in this

thread. And it isn't worth it. I have been called some crazy shit in this thread. Shit that is nowhere near true. It IS NOT WORTH IT. I have never in my life been called a bigot. Hell, only at DU. Whatever. I think I am done. FWIW, I hold no ill will towards you.

[uppityperson]

120. I see you calling yourself a lot of shit in this thread, no one else calling you crazy shit

Point out where you were called a bigot. I don't see it. Except for you saying "now you can call me a bigot (paraphrased not copy/pasted)"

[Shell Beau]

121. Excuse me. It was all implied. It might as well been said.

[uppityperson]

125. So it wasn't said.

[Shell Beau]

141. I am guessing if this was said to you, you'd take it exactly how I did

"I will say this though, anyone who dismisses others based on nationality...
or where they live, alone, is a fucking bigot."

Yes, I was indirectly called a bigot. Gotta keep those new rule in check.

Of course, even though that wasn't exactly what I did, I am quite sure you will agree with it being directed at me. Oh well. I've wasted far too much of my time here in this thread. So this is my last post. Reply if you like, I won't be replying back.

[Cleobulus]

144. And what, in my lovely post that is quoted from, is inaccurate about that statement?

There is such a thing as discrimination and prejudice based on nationality, are you saying your post and attitude aren't manifestations of either of those things?

[uppityperson]

145. You are wrong. I would look at what I posted and see if it was bigoted

I wouldn't reply as you did

[proteus_lives]

172. You are hilarious.

:rofl:

[jody]

3. Misled by politicians elected to command them, the true patriots are men & women who serve in our

military, prepared to give "the last full measure of devotion" so that "government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth", a dream only dimly foreseen in 1776 and still yet to be achieved in all respects but still we are the world's longest surviving government with that as our goal.

[Lint Head]

4. Patriotism is not defined as words. Patriotism is an act.

Nathan Hale did something patriotic. Daniel Ellsberg did something patriotic. Wearing tee shirts and saying you are patriotic is not patriotism. Voting is patriotic. Putting George Bush and Dick Cheney in jail is patriotic.

[depakid]

5. Oh, don't worrry "about the door"

Some of us are quite happy- and thankful every day NOT to be around this sort of shallow, self righteous nationalism.

[sufrommich]

7. None of that in Australia,huh? nt

[depakid]

11. Not to the extent one sees it on display in the states

and certainly not from people who consider themselves progressives.

Now granted it's 4th of July there... but that consideration only goes so far in the context of an OP.

[sufrommich]

13. You don't think progressives can be patriotic? The right

wing in this country hasn't trademarked patriotism .

[depakid]

20. What's been expressed isn't "patriotism" and you're correct, it isn't limited to the right

[Skittles]

23. CORRECT

[sufrommich]

26. The OP said that those who would run rather that fight should

run. I don't have a problem with that and agree with her.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

42. also said this...

"those of you who feel being negative is the way to go don't let the door hit you on the ass as you flee to Canada." If I feel negative about how things are going, I am free to "flee to Canada".

[Shell Beau]

54. She also said if you aren't willing to fight the fight then take your ass on to Canada.

Don't leave that part out. Kinda makes it a lie.

[uppityperson]

57. Speaking of lies, here is the quote

"I still believe in USA and for those of you who feel being negative is the way to go don't let the door hit you on the ass as you flee to Canada. And btw, that's not saying Canada is somehow less. It's just saying that those who feel they should just run instead of fight well I can't be bothered with them."

2 parts.
"I still believe in USA and for those of you who feel being negative is the way to go don't let the door hit you on the ass as you flee to Canada."

"It's just saying that those who feel they should just run instead of fight well I can't be bothered with them."

Quit with the insults. ("kinda makes it a lie", so you won't be confused)

[Shell Beau]

61. So you of course read into that that she'd rather people leave than

fight for this country to be better? I read the opposite.

[uppityperson]

66. How the hell did you get that out of what I wrote. Wrong again Shell

You call me a liar ("kinda makes it a lie") for giving only a partial quote, then you combine the parts of what the OP wrote. I copy/paste the OP to show you how you are wrong and this is what you come up with?

No, I read "for those of you who feel being negative is the way to go don't let the door hit you on the ass as you flee to Canada." Direct quote from OP. For those who feel being negative is the way to go (hence, if I am negative) don't let the door hit you on the ass as you flee to Canada.

[Shell Beau]

75. I am not going to argue what she meant. I took it to mean she

meant (since she said it) that those who aren't willing to stand up and fight for this country to take their asses elsewhere. You can copy and paste till your hands fall off. That is how I read it, and that is how I think she meant for it to be read. You think otherwise. YAY. Maybe she'll pop back up and clarify. Until then, please refrain from copying and pasting what is right there in this very OP. I am not dumb, and I can read.

[uppityperson]

81. I am trying to tell you what I take the Op to mean and will correct you when you

incorrectly tell me "So you of course read into that". Or am I not supposed to correct what you are assuming I mean? Seriously. I am telling you how I took it.

I read not "So you of course read into that that she'd rather people leave than fight for this country to be better?" but for those who feel being negative is the way to go (hence me, if I am negative about what is going on in the country) don't let the door hit you on the ass as you flee to Canada.

AND I read your "kinda makes it a lie" as an insult.

[Shell Beau]

83. Well it wasn't insulting. You left out a big part of the OP IMO.

No cherry picking.

[uppityperson]

85. Which was why I posted both lines, not combined them. I'll have to remember saying

"kinda makes it a lie" isn't insulting.

[Shell Beau]

90. lol! That really insulted you? When you originally copied and pasted, you

did leave out that part. And leaving out a major part of the OP is disingenuous. Since then, you've basically copied and pasted the whole OP. But be insulted. It is what this place has become lately.

[uppityperson]

93. Thank you for permission to take your calling me a liar as an insult.

There is a reason I have not been on Du much lately, thank you for pointing out why. hugs to you shell.

[Shell Beau]

102. Hey, I haven't been here much either. I bet it is for the same reason as you.

I am pretty sure we've gotten along in the past. Don't let this disagreement change that. I can disagree without hating on someone.

[uppityperson]

103. I was thinking the same. nt

[uppityperson]

169. changed my mind oh sunny one. Looks impossible.

[sabrina 1]

49. Were all the immigrants who came to the U.S. to find a better

life not patriots to the countries they left? I have never heard anyone in Europe make that claim. They seem to understand that when a country is not providing for its citizens, or oppressing them, citizens have a right to seek refuge elsewhere and when they return to the lands of their ancestors, they are generally warmly welcomed.

I think it would be more patriotic to talk reasonably to those who feel their only option is to leave. Persuasion works better, and those who love their country and believe it is better to stay and fight, would not tell their fellow citizens who see no option, to 'not let the door hit them in the ass on the way out'. They would try to give them hope and if that failed, wish them well in their new lives and hope that wherever they go, they would continue to help those who remain behind to make things better. Which is what many who fled Europe did in the past.

I cannot see how being angry and using that 'with us or against us' attitude is particularly patriotic.

[Bonobo]

16. Count me in that group, mate. nt

[underpants]

6. I love my country too

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PynDWwK8KI0

[stray cat]

12. Patriotism is the courage to act to make America better

Its black students walking into a Little Rock School during desegregation. Unpatriotic then speaks for itself.....Every generation has to strive and sacrifice to maintain a great country - nothing stays the same or gets better without action

We need more patriots and more real patriotism otherwise we will deserve what we become.

[Bonobo]

15. It's also the last refuge of a scoundrel. nt

[madmax]

33. +1

[KonaKane]

79. Sir, you're talking about crass patriotism. Thats a distinction that few get

in that famous quote. Real patriotism is something else entirely.

[Bonobo]

98. Consider this then:

"“If patriotism is "the last refuge of a scoundrel," it is not merely because evil deeds may be performed in the name of patriotism, but because patriotic fervor can obliterate moral distinctions "

-Ralph B. Perry

[KonaKane]

127. A quote worthy of thought. But consider this.....

"The last refuge of the scoundrel" was clearly an allusion to "wrapping oneself in the flag" which everyone knows is what hypocrites, powermongers and tyrants do. However, if you serve your community - another person or your nation in some way, and do so out of love and not needing to be paid back, how is that not patriotism? And, how is that the act of a scoundrel?

[Bonobo]

135. You are correct. But one's community need not be one's "country".

One can act in a more local way without any thought for the country in toto.
It is largely a question of perspective.
For most of human history, people lived in small communities and were active, important parts of them.

It is relatively recently that the "patriotism, nationalism" idea was pushed so hard. In return, small communities have been largely hollowed out as things have centralized and communities lost their local flavor as long as jobs.

Remember the baker and the candlestick maker?

[KonaKane]

157. True, but we are in the same nation whether we like it or not.

Continuing to poo poo the obvious is just going to make things worse. I see no disgrace in good works that help my neighbor as a human first, and then as a fellow citizen.

[Cleobulus]

137. Because you don't do it in your nation's interest?

Let's put this in perspective, are the doctor's in the organization "Doctor's without Borders" doing what they do for their nation, or for their fellow human beings? What do they value more?

[KonaKane]

159. "Doctors without borders" is internationalist as indicated in their name.

But when I take my veteran neighbor to the store because he can't drive (progressively bad injuries that have taken much of the feeling from his legs) am I not helping a person and my nation by taking just a tiny bit of the burden the state would otherwise shoulder in helping to get this guy around, on myself? Or that I was happy to do it?

What is so ghastly horrible about such actions? That they might be attributed to patriotism as well as humanitarianism?

[Cleobulus]

101. Really, is it crass patriotism or "real" patriotism that makes some DUers dismiss the opinions...

of other DUers simply because of where they live or because of their differing nationality?

[KonaKane]

131. I would have to ask those who wasted no time today with the strawman attacks,

hyperbolic bullshit snark and putting words in the mouths of others ("how RW of you"..." oh whats next, Welfare queens?"...."just like they did in the Old South" etc).

[Cleobulus]

138. I can give you the exact quote if you wish...

In fact, its in an OP I just put up, no strawman, no putting words in people's mouth, just their own words, black and white, for all to see.

[KonaKane]

158. Please do.

I'm all ears....or eyes, as it were.

[humpty dumpty]

21. Patriotism can be the courage to stop change for the worst

Patriotism can also be the courage to act to keep America from changing, if the change is for the worst.

[KonaKane]

78. Precisely.

The real patriots stayed and worked their asses off to make a positive difference. They didnt wave flags and sing songs and call it a day.

[Biker13]

18. K&R

I hear ya, Lynn

[lunatica]

24. I'm sure the millions of immigrants who came here heard the same thing when they left

their countries too. Maybe some in your family perhaps? Funny how the brought the culture they loved and they left behind and added it to the richness of this country.

Whatever.

[Shell Beau]

25. As much as I try to leave DU, certain topics draw me back.

This being one. So yes, I still look at DU even though I don't post much.

I agree Lynn. No one is saying this country doesn't need work. Hell, it always needs work, and will continue to always need work. No perfect country exists, nor will it ever. However, I will take this country any day, anytime over any other. ALWAYS. Call me dumb, blind whatever you will. I don't give a rat's ass. We are still a very young country, and we have come a hell of a lot farther than many old countries and in a whole hell of a lot less time. Does that mean I think it is all roses? Hell no. But I can see past the shit and see the beauty of this country. And it is there, and I will say that those who don't see it are the blind ones. So hell fuckin yeah I will celebrate today. Happy Independence Day to all. Even those who don't give 2 shits. See, that is how this country works. And it ain't love it or leave it. However, to those who aren't willing to help make a difference and put your time and efforts where your loudass mouths are, then yes, please, by all means, leave it. Thanks.

[havocmom]

27. I love my country. That is why I am critical when bad people promote bad policy

'My country right or wrong' and 'Love it or leave it' never worked for me. If you love something, you try your best to keep it on the course that serves We The People. If you don't agree with what temporary leaders (and ALL leaders are temporary) are doing at any given time, you raise hell about it. You don't leave it. The opposite of love is not hate, it is apathy. If we know there are corrections needed, it is patriotic to work to make them.

Letting leaders persist, unchallenged, in promoting agendas harmful to We The People is apathy, and that isn't what most of us are about.

Love it? Take care of it; don't hope some bright folks with good pr skills will do it for us.

I love my country more than words can say. My actions have to be my words. I will not be still and suffer bad intent from bad agendas. Dissent is not unpatriotic. Dissent is needed when it is needed, and is an act of love.

[Crystal Clarity]

151. "Letting leaders persist unchallenged in promoting agendas

harmful to We the People is apathy and that isn't what we're about"

Here's an excellent anecdote to this "apathy" you speak of... Why not face all of those evil politicians head on by becoming one yourself. That way your actions don't have to be just your words, AND you can promote your agenda 100% of the time! Kick those bad ass politicians "who promote bad policy" where it really hurts... in their/your own playground!

"If corrections are needed, it is patriotic to work to make them". You sound like an excellent person to set members of your party on THE right path. But please don't forget us little folk... Come back in 6 months or so after taking office and let us know how well your "critical" approach to your colleagues works for you. I for one don't want to see you leave this country anymore then the OP did. IMHO you'd be a great scrapper for us in the political arena or die trying I'm sure! :patriot:

[havocmom]

161. not everyone should run for office. There is wisedom in knowing that.

But working to support good candidates, ah that anyone can do. And most of us do it.

[L0oniX]

28. Unrec'n ....Patriotism is for fools!

Never was a patriot yet, but was a fool. – John Dryden

A patriot is a fool in ev’ry age. – Alexander Pope.

Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. – Samuel Johnson

In Dr. Johnson’s famous dictionary, patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer, I beg to submit that it is the first. – Ambrose Bierce

Patriotism is as fierce as a fever, pitiless as the grave, blind as a stone, and irrational as a headless hen. – Ambrose Bierce

That pernicious sentiment, “Our country, right or wrong.” – James Russell Lowell

“My country right or wrong” is a thing that no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying, “My mother drunk or sober.” – G. K. Chesterton

Patriotism which has the quality of intoxication is a danger not only to its native land but to the world, and “My country never wrong” is an even more dangerous maxim than “My country, right or wrong.” – Bertrand Russell

Patrioism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious. – George Bernard Shaw

You’ll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is a pernicious, psychopathic form of idiocy. – George Bernard Shaw

Patriotism is an ephemeral motive that scarcely ever outlasts the particular threat to society that aroused it. – Denis Diderot

To me, it seems a dreadful indignity to have a soul controlled by geography. – George Santayana

The Athenian democracy suffered much from that narrowness of patriotism which is the ruin of all nations. – H.G. Wells

Nationalism is our form of incest, is our idolatry, is our insanity. “Patriotism” is its cult. . . . Just as love for one individual which excludes the love for others is not love, love for one’s country which is not part of one’s love for humanity is not love, but idolatrous worship. – Erich Fromm

One of the great attractions of patriotism–it fulfills our worst wishes. In the person of our nation we are able, vicariously, to bully and cheat, Bully and cheat, what’s more, with a feeling that we are profoundly virtuous. – Aldous Huxley

Many studies have discovered a close link between prejudice and “patriotism” . . . Extreme bigots are almost always super-patriots – Gordon Allport

It seems like the less a statesman amounts to, the more he loves the flag. – Elbert Hubband

Patriotism varies, from a noble devotion to a moral lunacy. – William Inge

Every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud, adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority. – Arthur Schopenhauer

Patriotism is the passion of fools and the most foolish of passions. – Arthur Schopenhauer

Patriotism corrupts history. – Goethe

Into the cultural and technological system of the modern world, the patriotic spirit fits like dust in the eyes and sand in the bearings. Its net contribution to the outcome is obscuration, distrust, and retardation at every point where it touches the fortunes of modern mankind. – Thorstein Veblen

The standardization of mass-production carries with it a tendency to standardize a mass-mind, producing a willing conformity, not merely to common ways of living, but to common ways of thinking and common valuations. The worst defect of patriotism is its tendency to foster and impose this common mind, and so to stifle the innumerable germs of liberty. – J.A. Hobson

2. Patriotism and War:

At the bottom of all patriotism is war: that is why I am no patriot. – Jules Renard

No other factor in history, not even religion, has produced so many wars as has the clash of national egotisms sanctified by the name of patriotism. – Preserved Smith

Naturally the common people don’t want war . . . Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders . . . All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism. – Hermann Goering.


3. Patriotism and Religion:

Patriotism is a kind of religion; it is the egg from which wars are hatched. – Guy de Maupassant

God and Country are an unbeatable team; they break all records for oppression and bloodshed. – Luis Buñuel

To be patriotic, hate all nations but your own; to be religious, all sects but your own; to be moral, all pretenses but your own. – Lionel Strachey

When a dog barks at the moon, then it is religion; but when he barks at strangers, it is patriotism! – David Starr Jordan

4. The American Syndrome:

If you have a weak candidate and a weak platform, wrap yourself up in the American flag and talk about the Constitution. – Matt Quay

How much longer are we going to think it necessary to be “American” before (or in contradistinction to) being cultivated, being enlightened, being humane, & having the same intellectual discipline as other civilized countries? It is really too easy a disguise for our shortcomings to dress them up as a form of patriotism. – Edith Wharton

The 100 percent American is 99 percent an idiot. – George Bernard Shaw

Treason is in the air around us everywhere. It goes by the name of patriotism. – Thomas Corwin

[laughingliberal]

170. Very enlightening. Thanks for posting! nt

[Desertrose]

29. Not negative...just realistic.

I don't love a "country" ...I love the people who make it up...the ideals and vision that we began with...but now, knowing the reality of our corporate overlords, well lets just say I'm sure not feeling the love there- either way.

Seriously, why is that everyone says if you don't thrill at the first notes of the National anthem or something, that we should LEAVE? Excuse me, I have as much right as anyone to stay here and to hold my own opinions....that's another of those ideals this country laid down at the beginning. Just cause I'm not blinded my nationalistic (false) pride, doesn't mean I should go elsewhere.

You can't be bothered with those who run instead of fight? And this should matter to me?

(Sorry...this argument always gets me.)

[sufrommich]

36. The OP did not say anything of a sort. s/he said that those

who choose to run instead of stay and fight should go.

[uppityperson]

44. If I say something negative, then I am free to "flee to Canada". If I feel negative about

how things are going,I am free to "flee to Canada".

"those of you who feel being negative is the way to go don't let the door hit you on the ass as you flee to Canada."

(edited to add missing letter)

[liquid diamond]

34. Most of these people that threaten to leave are bullshitters.

The truth is they want their cake and eat it too by bashing this country but enjoying its privileges.

[Shell Beau]

35. I will say you hardly ever see the naysayers post what they do love

about this country. So easy to bash it. Why point out anything positive? :eyes:

[Book Lover]

38. Is this what you'd say to your ancestors who left their nations to build a better life?

Unless you're descended from slaves, or a member of any of the remaining First Nations, your ancestors "ran," too. You have just as much scorn for them?

[Shell Beau]

39. Many of my anscestors are from right here. And to compare

America to what people left back in the day is pretty silly. And I will also say, many of those who did leave and come here STAYED here.

[Book Lover]

139. Well, bully for you.

I wonder if the OP will ever come back to this thread...

[Cleobulus]

48. I'm not a patriot for the same reason I'm not proud to be white...

its stupid, divisive, and idiotic, but that's just me.

[era veteran]

59. Some of these posters should spend some time in the

military or Peace Corps. That experience gives people an investment in their country. If you don't like it fix it or get the fuck out & out of the way! ...... Don't Put it Down ( best one around ): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TILxgiceWUY 'My heart beats true, for the red, white, and blue."

[LWolf]

63. You don't need anybody's permission to be patriotic.

Nobody needs your permission to eschew patriotism, here or anywhere else, either.

:shrug:

[JackRiddler]

68. It's our sacred right as Americans to dislike our country, if so we feel. To say, "Go to Canada..."

is anti-American.

This country belongs to its people, all of them. Not only to those who claim they "love" it more than others.

[KonaKane]

80. The real question is....who would intentionally stay in a place they do not like?

That is exceedingly stupid, and a terrible excuse to grouse.

[depakid]

129. You STILL haven't learned?

Even after getting schooled in the last thread?

Wow. That's actually kind of sad.

[KonaKane]

133. You mean I still disagree? Yes.

And you didnt prove a thing with the other thread except that there are people here with exceptionally thin skin and even thinner reasoning and rhetorical skills.

[depakid]

142. You persist in making false claims about things you've been shown to know nothing about

other than you don't like Haole's "bitching about the islands" when they can just go elsewhere.

[KonaKane]

153. In other words, you disagree. I can handle that.

Although you may want to work on that anger issue a bit.

[depakid]

163. No- in other words, there are such things as facts- and they differ from opinions

At least they do in other western nations. The US... not so much in the 21st Century.

[JackRiddler]

130. As though they always have a choice. The real question...

is why people tolerate so much misery and bullshit, wherever they are. Or why so many want to persuade themselves it's all cheesecake and honey, when it's not.

If you don't like it, fight to change it.

[KonaKane]

136. You said it right - dont like it? fight to change it.

Failing that, do your damndest to get out and find a place more pleasant to be (I dont think the government holds a gun to your head and makes you stay in the USA if you don't want to be, as long as you arent being held for a crime).

Failing that, they come off a someone who likes to do nothing but bitch and expect others to love them for their misery. Something I find a little repulsive.

[JonLP24]

147. Probably because they can't afford it

I hate the political atmosphere of Arizona but I can't afford to leave. I would love to live in a progressive state.

[KonaKane]

156. I have no doubt that would be why many can't move.

And my heart goes out to them. But I cannot escape the feeling that alot of this anti-country sentiment is just grousing by the negativity crowd who don't lift a finger to change things anyway. I can't prove it, it's just a hunch after dealing with attitudes like that in different spheres of my life over the years.

[UTUSN]

69. Eh, it's O.K. I got that way at the World Cup. n/t

[treestar]

74. Agreed and why would Canada want

anyone so sour on their own country. If I were Canadian I'd be insulted by U.S Americans thinking they can come to Canada any time they want. Can you say "illegal alien?" :rofl:

[Greyhound]

84. No, I will not excuse you. Jingoism is one of the most pernicious of our deficits.

OTOH, if you would like to take up a collection and send sufficient quantities of money to me, I will personally ensure that you will not have to suffer our presence one minute longer than necessary.
:patriot:

[Bluebear]

86. Please point us to the thread that chided you for being patriotic. Thanks.

[Shell Beau]

105. I think (and yes I am assuming) this is a counter to all the

other threads going around on today of all days. Of course, many would say today is the best day to do that. Whatever.

[WCGreen]

88. My rec lasted about one second....

I feel the same way.

This is our country and it is almost impossible in this day and ae to divorce yourself from the country where you were born, raised a family and have ties that stretch back decades...

[donheld]

173. My Unrec lasted quite awhile.

:)

[LoZoccolo]

96. K&R!

:patriot:

[Wind Dancer]

108. Hmmm

So the OP starts an inflammatory thread and vanishes.

[AsahinaKimi]

109. IBTL

Its bound to happen.

[flvegan]

134. This thread hasn't gone well.

[QC]

152. Warmed-over Bircher sentiments from the 60s seldom do. n/t

[NJmaverick]

148. K & R

[proteus_lives]

150. Agreed, 100%

"still believe in USA and for those of you who feel being negative is the way to go don't let the door hit you on the ass as you flee to Canada."

Let the cowards cut and run.

Real Americans stay and fight for their beliefs.

[anthroguy101]

154. The GOP would want nothing more than for us to flee to another country nt

[QC]

162. This thread needs some theme music!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHAFmFsb9XM

[WolverineDG]

164. Nothing wrong with loving your country

but hating the flaws. I know you're doing your part each day to make a change for the better. That's what patriotism really is. Of course, you won't get to sit with the "too kool for skool" kids who do nothing but sit around & piss & moan about how awful the US is but do nothing to change or improve it.

dg

[Onceuponalife]

165. I can't be bothered with this topic.

-1000

[EstimatedProphet]

166. You do realize that it isn't about you how other people feel, don't you?

That other people may feel alienated living here, or unfairly treated beyond their ability to live their lives the way they want, even 2nd class citizens sometimes, and they're not doing it just to annoy you?

[inna]

167. "don't let the door hit you on the ass as you flee to Canada" - disgusting post.

Sickening.