It’s not just Lower Merion!: Bronx school watches unwitting students via Webcam

[maddezmom]

In this week's A Million Stories, we explored the messy Webcam scandal that's going down at Lower Merion School District. The district insists that it only peered through students' Webcams in order to find lost or stolen laptops, and did so using a security software called LANrev. Insanely enough, Douglas Young, the district's spokesperson, told us that it wasn't the only school district using such software: "The software feature isn't just utilized in this school district," says Young. "It's utilized by other school districts and organizations." (He said he couldn't name any offhand.)

Dude wasn't kidding. In the thoroughly creepy clip above from the PBS documentary Digital Nation, the assistant principal of Bronx's middle school IS 339, Daniel Ackerman, shows exactly how he can watch kids through their Webcams. Just wait for the part where he says, "They don't even realize that we're watching." Oy. Also: "I always like to mess with them and take their picture."

more:http://citypaper.net/blogs/clog/2010/02/25/pbs-documentary-shows-bronx-school-watching-unwitting-students-via-webcams/

[upi402]

1. Crap, guess what the TV News story will bury Health Care Reform n/t

[depakid]

2. Tip of the iceberg(s)

If it's legitimate for the telecoms, then hey! Why not us?

[PCIntern]

3. K&R and

of course we're not alone here. they didn't write that program to sell to one entity. But interestingly and unfortunately, we will begin to see, IMO, a devaluing of the moral outrage, since 'everybody does it'...

We live in one weird country...remember Douglas Ginsburg? He smoked dope so he couldn't possibly sit on the Supreme Court...but it inoculated everyone else, so everyone, including all the Presidential candidates, came forward and admitted that they had, and it was officially 'fine'...a "youthful indiscretion"...

It is to be noted that Republicans commit youthful indiscretions of all types into their eighties. Democrats however, are not allowed to live down a traffic ticket from their seventeenth year.

[Hekate]

4. KnR

[SoCalDem]

5. Memo to students..

If YOUR school "gives" you a laptop and tells you it's ok to take it home...turn the volume down to MUTE and cover the damned camera lens with a bandaid:)..and don't "surf the web" on it either..or use it for facebook etc:)

Assume that Big Brother IS watching you..and listening to you

[damyank913]

9. I would amend that to say that if ANYONE gives you any communications device...

I'm waiting for the day when you can't trust devices that you personally purchase from anyone. Perhaps that day has already arrived...

[proud2BlibKansan]

10. Or just buy your own laptop

:eyes:

[Heidi]

13. With all due respect, that is not an option for many students.

What you suggest essentially means poor kids get spied on, while more affluent kids' right to privacy is protected.

[SoCalDem]

19. We bought a fantastic wifi Dell laptop for $250

from a place in Dallas that refurbishes corporate turn-ins.. and the best part? NO AOL or all that crap the ones you buy at stores have loaded into them..

http://www.hcditrading.com/Shop/Control/fp/SFV/%5BU%5Dhttp:/www.hcditrading.com/Shop/Control/fp/SFV/29664/view_page/usedlaptops

[Raineyb]

30. That whole thing about not being able to afford one just went right over your head didn't it? n/t

[Posteritatis]

62. $250 is a fortune for some parents of students. (nt)

[woo me with science]

18. Kids at Lower Merion were required to use the school computers. nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. They were also required to pay $55 for insurance but if they didn't they still got a computer

[woo me with science]

21. They were prohibited from bringing their own,

which is what you just suggested here.

[proud2BlibKansan]

23. Again. They were also required to pay $55 insurance but got a computer even if they didn't pay it.

A requirement in this district is obviously not binding.

[woo me with science]

24. So what?

It's still the school's cam. The point of this subthread is the intrusive spycams, and using another cam from the school obviously doesn't help.

[proud2BlibKansan]

27. Actually, looks like I started this subthread

with a post suggesting the kids buy their own laptops.

[Fumesucker]

28. And then it was pointed out that not all parents have the money to buy a laptop..

And furthermore that the school disallowed non-school laptops.

I recall that one kid at the Lower Merion got his personal laptop confiscated..

[proud2BlibKansan]

31. And I pointed out that school regulations are not always enforced

Like the one in my district against cell phones. :eyes:

Making the argument that the school required it is easily disputed by any teacher who will tell you how things really work in our schools. Despite the image painted here on DU of rampant authoritarianism, that is just not the case in most of our schools.

[Fumesucker]

35. I guess you missed the part where the kid had his personal laptop confiscated..

As was confirmed by another poster who replied to my previous post.

And you are a teacher encouraging the breaking of rules by students?

Which rules do you think students should be encouraged to flaunt?

[proud2BlibKansan]

45. Encouraging them to buy their own laptops is breaking the rules?

Perhaps you should read my reply again. I merely pointed out that compliance with rules at school is not as common as those who don't work in a school realize. Now how that statement can be translated into encouraging kids to break rules is lost on me.

[Fumesucker]

47. If the rule is no personal laptops then yes indeed

Advocating they buy their own is encouraging rule breaking.

And once again I point out that it was reported a child at that school had their personal laptop confiscated.



Now teacher I am fully aware of the rules
everybody knows that smokin' ain't allowed in school
-Brownsville Station

[BigErnMcCracken]

36. HUH?

Your argument is still rather baseless. Let's get to the nitty gritty of this whole thing. Hypothetically -poor kid - poor neighborhood - gets a computer from his school to allow him to keep pace with classmates. Could never afford her own computer. Computer is in the bedroom of her home and anyone with the administration passwords can access that computer and watch the webcam?

COME ON. To just dismiss this as "well take your own computer" is so freaking tone deaf I can't even compute. We're talking about a situation where more and more children are going to be exploited. Don't we already have enough places on the interwebz where people can go to see these poor young girls who think that taking a cell phone photo in the mirror and posting it for the world to see is a good idea? Can't we acknowledge that this technology, whether or not it's a good idea for a child to use a school issued laptop aside, is horrifying and that steps need to be taken to ensure that this kind of situation doesn't happen to our kids?

I don't even care about Hannah's ongoing fight about what if, what did, what didn't. I care only that as time goes on this WILL be an issue and it needs to be dealt with starting today. For those of you defending this whole thing, I hope you don't have a 13 year old daughter.

[Jamastiene]

68. Well said.

:thumbsup:

And you can BET that this technology WILL be abused. Just give it time and the news stories will start coming out.

[woo me with science]

74. Yes, not only baseless, but incoherent. nt

[woo me with science]

33. Yes, I recall reading that, too. nt

[pipi_k]

41. That's true, but...

One of the reasons the school gave for having activated that one boy's webcam was that he hadn't paid the insurance fee and, in their minds, it had been "stolen".


Which is ridiculous, because if they knew he hadn't paid, then they knew he had it. No need to activate anything. Just send a note home telling the parents to either pay up or lose it.

Or, if they were feeling particularly generous, tell the parents that their son could use the computer even though the fee hadn't been paid.


How can they claim they used the webcam to locate the "stolen" computer when they knew all along that he hadn't paid the fee and that he had it?

[blogslut]

39. Lower Merion students were forbidden to use their own laptops

I'm not exactly sure why but I imagine it had to do with the fact that those students were logging into the school's intranet and perhaps the IT people felt they could protect their system from malicious activities better by controlling the hardware.

Whatever the reason, the Lower Merion students were forbidden to use any laptops but those issued by the school.

[comrade snarky]

56. There is no such thing a privacy on a work or school computer

Bank on it.

Everything you do or look at can be logged.

[TexasObserver]

6. Recommend. I'm sure it's more common than we've imagined.

We have had an attitude of spying and lawlessness by those in authority the past 9 years, which traces to the Bush administration, which set the tone for this century.

[Heidi]

14. Amazing how quickly we've become inured to the erosion of our rights,

isn't it?

[TexasObserver]

17. Yes. Every generation, it seems, has to fight to retake the Bill of Rights.

With the proliferation of online data available on so many people, many citizens don't seem to care about encroachment until it's way over the line. In house "spying" by employers and IT types has become a given in the work environment.

A GPS device would better serve the school's purposes than this camera, which is one very good reason the entire program should be suspected. If the goal is to track the units while out, GPS makes sense. Cameras do not. If it is stolen, what will the camera see? Nothing? The trunk of a car? A pawn shop shelf?

The whole thing is a bullshit excuse to snoop on underage students while they're totally unsuspecting.

[old mark]

7. I knew if one school was doing it, many more would soon be discovered

to have spied on homes. Remember, students are not the only ones who may be in range of the cameras - everyone in the home is being spied on.

I am sure this is school administrators looking for cheap sex thrills and feelings of power.


mark

[Hannah Bell]

11. "I am sure this is school administrators looking for cheap sex thrills "

oh, undoubtably. i mean, everyone knows that.

[trumad]

16. Like clock work Hannah...

[ProdigalJunkMail]

22. 4:35 on the west coast...wow n/t

[elehhhhna]

40. time and a half

[ProdigalJunkMail]

43. sweet... n/t

[annabanana]

76. heh. . . n/t

[Hannah Bell]

50. 5:05 am - wow.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

57. 8:05...eastern... n/t

[Hannah Bell]

66. so what?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

77. it's funny, Hannah, because you must

set an alert system of some sort for this topic...your favorite of late. Four AM is pretty early for most people...did you roll out of bed and check DU?

sP

[Hannah Bell]

51. i see. no problem with random accusations of pedophilia; only with mocking such accusations.

like clockwork, trumad.

[old mark]

34. HB, I have many relatives, including my late mom and MIL who were educators, and

many who still are, from grade school through college. You obviously are an administrator of some sort or at least seek to defend them.

I have very little use for them and stand by my statement.

mark

[BigErnMcCracken]

37. Hannah...

Hannah,

If I concede a point to you and say that in this case, it isn't proven and cant be that this was a school administrator looking for cheap sexual thrills, can you at least concede the point that this person STILL needs to be dealt with severely, simply because this case DOES represent an invasion of privacy, and because if it isn't dealt with now the door will be open for a lot of kids to find themselves in bad situations. I have a friend who had a college roommate - and that roommate had a very controlling and abusive boyfriend. She was a heavyset girl, no self-esteem. Turns out the boyfriend forced her to leave her webcam on all the time. Not to watch his girlfriend, but to see my friend when she THOUGHT she was alone in her room. Can you imagine? Finding out that two years of your life, your private life, were open and available for this creepy guy to watch, record, masturbate to, etc? This is a huge issue in the world moving forward.

[Hannah Bell]

72. i don't even know what person you're talking about. your friend's experience is irrelevant to this

case.

[Hissyspit]

8. I showed that episode of Digital Nation to my students a few days before I heard about

the Pennsylvania incident here at DU.

This is the trailer for the whole episode: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6PRIGW6pqA

[damyank913]

12. Did you see the special on CNBC about Google...

In an interview with the Google CEO, He revealed that Google NEVER deletes any search requests-NEVER!!!! He says the searches are "anonomized". Other computer experts interviewed said that the identity of the searcher still can be obtained. Big brother is also corporate America selling us out (again).

[maddezmom]

15. I've been watching it, some really interesting stuff

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/digitalnation/view/

[Chemisse]

25. It is different to watch kids in school via webcams

I don't think it is a violation of privacy to watch kids at school, as long as they are aware of it. They are being watched all the time to some degree, from the eyes of the teachers to cameras in the hallways and on the buses.

It is rather creepy and I don't care for the idea, but I don't find it to be unethical.

Viewing children in their homes is a whole other ball of wax. Not only is it unethical, it is probably criminal.

[TexasObserver]

26. Agree. No problem openly video monitoring school common areas.

I don't think anyone believes video monitoring of students - monitoring that is policy and is done openly and not in secret - is inappropriate for schools.

And no one would object to GPS devices that allow them to track lap tops taken out. That makes sense, and it's not intrusive. It only identifies the location of the lap top at any moment in time, and since it is the property of the district, that's appropriate.

We all know this case is a matter of a school district snooping inappropriately and illegally on students while those students are not in school and not subject to the school's video monitoring. Imagine if someone's mom decides to check the lap top to see what the daughter is working on? Does the school have to right to see mother and daughter walking around in their home, with a reasonable expectation of privacy while there?

It is shocking that anyone tries to defend the action by the school district in using the cameras.

[BigErnMcCracken]

38. Agreed.

I can't see how anyone doesn't just default to this view. You do NOT need to be able to activate a webcam to find a stolen laptop. Period. This is pandora's box.

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. Interesting how the little details get in the way, isn't it?

:)

[Odin2005]

29. This is what happens when schools are like prisons.

[pipi_k]

42. One thing for sure here...

I'm glad my grandkids have their own computers to use for schoolwork. If the school ever decides to loan out their own computers because they don't want kids using their own, I'm going to make sure their parents know they need to cover up cameras and microphones before they use them.

As it is, Mr Pip has been working on the computer of a young family friend whose dad passed away over a year ago. The young man lives with his mom and older sister. They are not very well off and struggle from month to month on Social Security survivor's benefits. The kid's computer was so messed up it wouldn't even start up and he had to walk a mile to the library to use the computer there. He can't afford a new computer, and probably couldn't afford an "insurance" fee to borrow one from the school if they were doing a loaner program.

At least he'll have a computer (actually two now, since a kind neighbor donated one) so he doesn't have to go to the library to do his homework. Next time I see him, I'm going to tell him to be careful about using computers other than his own.

[Fumesucker]

46. Covering up a microphone won't block the sound, just muffle it a bit..

It's very likely that a covered microphone would still render understandable speech.. Particularly if the audio was run through some enhancement program.

[pipi_k]

49. Yeah, I know...I meant cover it with a cotton ball or something

and then tape it down. Wouldn't totally block the sound, but would probably muffle it so it's very hard for someone on the other end to hear clearly.


Or the other thing I would do is play an iPod and put one of the earbuds next to the microphone so all the other end hears is some (really loud...hee hee) music.

:evilgrin:

[olegramps]

44. Right wingers response is: If they aren't doing anything wrong then they have nothing to hide.

[Hannah Bell]

52. right wingers' response is to accuse school personnel of pedophilia, while ignoring the fact

that this monitoring took place at school.

[TheMadMonk]

48. How did these people get the bloody idea that conducting covert, intrusive...

...suveilance on the private property of others is even remotely legal? Even if their sole intention is to track their own property (laptop) which they know with 100% certainty has been stolen, this can not possibly be legal.

Where were the various school district's lawyers when the decision to aquire the LANRev software was made? Were were LANRev's lawyers when they built this capability into the software, and marketed it to businesses and schools for use in machines that would be taken off the property of the business owners/school grounds and into private property where the user (and property owner) has not just a reasonable expectation of privacy, but an absolute expectation absent the issuing of a legally issued warrant authorising such surveilance?

[Xithras]

59. Gear tracking & monitoring software is perfectly legal.

And because it's school equipment, I have NO problem them monitoring its location. I have something similar on my Droid, which allows me to GPS track it in real time, open audio channels to listen in, etc. I can even make it start screaming "HELP, THE GUY WHO IS HOLDING ME IS A PEDOPHILE PHONE THIEF" on speaker at top volume, and lock out the buttons so he can't turn it off unless he pulls the battery.

The only real legal question here is whether the parents were ever advised that their children were being provided with monitored equipment. If the answer is no, then the parents can potentially sue. If they were advised, and accepted the gear anyway, then I have no sympathy.

You have a right to privacy on your own computer. When you use someone elses computer, you should have no such expectation.

[woo me with science]

61. Problems here:

1. Tracking a computer's location does not necessitate putting a CAMERA into a private home. GPS will accomplish the same task without the egregious privacy concerns of putting a remote-activated camera into a teenager's bedroom.

This feature does much more than just show the location of the laptop. It provides spying capability in private homes.



2. "You have a right to privacy on your own computer. When you use someone elses computer, you should have no such expectation."

This is not a case of choosing to accept certain rules and limits for the privilege of using someone else's computer. Students were REQUIRED to use the school's computers and were prohibited from using their own. They had no option to refuse this invasion of privacy. Low-income students in other districts would also be unfairly denied any other option.

Bottom line: The school district has absolutely no business having the capability to remotely activate a camera in a private home in the first place.

[TheMadMonk]

75. INTRUSIVE SURVELIANCE.

Surveilance that INTRUDES into the private space of others.

Calling it tracking software does not negate the fact that it places a remotely activated camera in the private space of others.

If I knowingly activate a camera on a computer belonging to a school or my boss, then yes I might expect to have that monitored. However, for someone else to activate that camera without my knowledge and express permission, even if I did in fact steal that computer, is flat out wrong.

[Echo In Light]

53. What a slime

[gmoney]

54. Boortz was bemoaning this the other day

Big brother, government schools, ooh scary... Then he says to his producer, "you know, there's hacker software you can download from the internet that will let people view your webcam feed?" then cut to commercial with him touting "Go To My PC" Software that will let you access your PC from anywhere! It was seamless and weird... I don't think their people got the irony.

[comrade snarky]

55. This is a truly stupid move by some schools

And their IT departments. From the above article it sounds like the software to monitor laptops is freely available to school administrators so all you need is the password or monitoring application to gain access.

That is insane.

As a former IT administrator at a college there is no way in hell I would have allowed unfettered access to laptop webcams for school administrators to spy on and "mess with" students. Not without a massive chain of protests letters and replies going up to the top management and some final statements making it clear that I was doing this under protest. Even to activate one in case of theft I'd want a damn police report. My job search would begin the day I had to set this up. If I could afford it I'd walk out the door.

These people need a harsh lesson.

[Quantess]

58. Now all pedophiles are going to apply for IT jobs in school districts,

unless this is stopped.

[mzteris]

60. who says they haven't

already?

[Hannah Bell]

65. there we have it. mzteris spews "pedophiles in public schools".

[Quantess]

70. No, actually, I did.

Put yourself in the shoes of a pedophile...doesn't an IT job with these conditions sound gratfiying?

[Hannah Bell]

71. both of you did. what conditions would those be, quantess?

[elehhhhna]

78. I had a coworker -- head of IT -- who built an elaborate system

within the company's computers to supersecretly download and trade child porn.

He got busted by the co. eventually by accident, and they reported him pronto.

[pipi_k]

63. Nahhh....some of them will find other means to get close to kids...

My pedophile brother in law tried to get his wife (my sister) to open up a daycare in their home.

This was before we found out what he was doing with my daughter and some other little girls and he was prosecuted.

Thank goodness they didn't succeed in their pursuit. At least a whole lot of other little girls' lives weren't damaged by him.

[Jamastiene]

69. In some places *cough*Gastonia and Charlotte, NC*cough*

it seems like a big ol' pedophile get together, at least according to the news.

[niyad]

64. so was ackerman fired the minute that segment hit the airwaves? my guess is, probably not.

[Hannah Bell]

73. no, he wasn't, being as he was using school equipment, on school time, on school grounds.

why do you think he should be?

[Jamastiene]

67. That is creepy.

There is something creepy as hell about that. :cringe: