Whether it's Amy Bishop or Joseph Stack, I don't really give a shit about their grievances

[cali]

Once you cross the line to murderous rampage, your grievances mean squat. And neither of these people were exactly downtrodden. I have absolutely no sympathy for people this hideously selfish.

[redqueen]

1. +1

[Name removed]

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[Lone_Star_Dem]

2. 100% agree

I feel really bad for his wife and daughter.

[cali]

4. me too.

as well as for anyone he killed or injured and their families.

[NoPasaran]

3. Yeah, screw 'em and the plane they flew in on.

[howard112211]

5. This is exactly the reason why I don't give squat about the people who supported the Iraq war.

[Political Heretic]

89. ZING!

Well said.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

6. Yep.

I have sympathy for people at the end of their rope who commit suicide. I do not have sympathy for people who decided to take innocent people down with them.

[RaleighNCDUer]

19. You do understand that by his lights the people he attacked are NOT innocents,

but complicit co-conspirators against him.

Even nuts have motives.

(Which doesn't in any way excuse what he did.)

[Iggo]

25. Except for his wife and kid, that is. (n/t)

[RaleighNCDUer]

29. I haven't heard that he attacked them - he burned his own house, but

presumably his wife was at work and his kid at school.

do you know differently?

[Iggo]

30. Sorry. I heard they had to be rescued. Could be bad info.

[RaleighNCDUer]

41. It seems you were right - but it doesn't really change things.

In that kind of suicidal psychosis the suicidee (if that is a real word) often sees family members as simply extensions of himself, so killing - or attempting to kill - them is not attacks on innocents but an extension of his own suicide.

That's why so often you hear of a guy shooting his family and then himself - it is not so much murder/suicide (from his POV) as mass suicide with him as the instrument of it.

And, as I said, it IS nuts.

[WindRiverMan]

76. How do we know how suicides see their family members?

it is not like you can interview them after the fact.

[RaleighNCDUer]

98. Not all suicides are successful, so there have been post incident

interviews. Very often, the perpetrator of murder-suicide holds the delusional belief that he is doing his loved ones a favor by killing them, that they are so much a part of him that NOT killing them, keeping them with him, would be doing them harm. (Note, I say 'he' because 99% of these cases are men killing wives/girlfriends and children.)

The key thing to remember is, these people are NUTS.

[redqueen]

32. Link here:

http://www.wane.com/dpp/news/small-plane-hits-austin-business-tower-1266519854367

[Name removed]

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[Fleshdancer]

71. taking away their home, husband, and father IS an attack.

It was passive aggressive, but that doesn't make it any less painful.

[marshall]

93. It's called "little eichmanns"

Zerzan coined the phrase in reference to the Unabomber and his motives.

[Warpy]

7. Bishop was a loose cannon who should have gotten

court ordered anger management sessions years ago.

Stack's manifesto speaks for a hell of a lot of people out there who are over 50 and staring at their golden years lived in grinding poverty after a lifetime of working and playing by the rules and falling farther behind every single year.

Yes, he stole and attempted murder. He might even have succeeded in murder. However, his reasons are going to resonate with a hell of a lot of people out there. If he were still around, I'd be calling for his prosecution and imprisonment. However, this is the only kind of message the corporatocracy will understand from ordinary people.

RIP, Mr. Stack. I despise what you did but I know why you did it.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

10. How is crashing a plan into a GOVERNMENT building and attempting to murder his OWN family

going to resonate with the corporatocracy?

[Geek_Girl]

81. His manifesto was a call to arms so to speak

the idea is if the Corporatcracy starts getting scared of the people well maybe things will change.

In my opinion things will get really ugly before they get better if Civil unrest erupts in this country.

But one thing is for sure something has gotta change people, are at there breaking point.

[cali]

13. grinding poverty? grab a fucking clue. the despicable piece of shit

set his house on fire and crashed his own plane into the building. The plane belonged to the company he owned.

And I am poor. I know what that's like and there is no way I'd murder because I feel screwed.

[redqueen]

14. I'm sure lots of people in grining poverty contemplate

flying their planes into governemnt buildings.

[NM_hemilover]

23. Am I considered a stalker,

if I look for your threads ? I can't possibly agree with you more and am curious about your other topics.

[cali]

63. no indeed and thanks

but most often I just post excerpts of news stories.

[Name removed]

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[NM_hemilover]

84. I'll keep an eye out

[cbdo2007]

8. *sarcasm* I can't wait until they get a picture of this wacko to make us see it on the news

every damn day and on every f'ing website.



I don't have any sympathy for them either and I just can't stand seeing these people's faces so I'm really DREADING seeing him over and over and over and over and over again forever now.

[hlthe2b]

9. No sympathy... but

we are foolish if we don't investigate their perceived reasons in order to try to prevent future occurrences.

In the words of one of my favorite philosophers, “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." -- George Santayana

[cali]

15. I'm not saying that shouldn't be investigated

I'm simply saying that no matter what their grievances, I have no sympathy for people like this who go on murderous rampages. This isn't someone who, for example, lost a child because of the callous denial of treatment from an insurance company and went off. That I can understand- even if I still feel the action was flat wrong.

[Name removed]

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[redqueen]

16. Sorry, not buying it.

IMO it's insulting and offensive to those who have to deal with actual mental illnesses to claim that any murderous asshole gets a pass because they're all just victims of mental illness.

[sui generis]

18. I am immovable in this opinion

I don't care who it insults and offends - if people are willing to kill for anything other than self-defense, they're not the same kind of human that presumably you, and I are.

"actual" mental illness - I presume the multi-axis type? Homicidal ideation doesn't fit into that? Surprise to me.

[Political Heretic]

90. People define self-defense in different ways.

At Ludlow or Pullman, for instance, people would argue their actions were completely motivated by self-defense.

[sui generis]

100. thus, if someone is willing to shoot and kill someone

because of perceived intimidation alone, they ain't right in the head. It's absolutely crystal clear to me and to most people that killing another human for nearly any reason we can come up with other than accidentally isn't and shouldn't be accepted as normal cognitive functioning.

[NM_hemilover]

22. agree with you completely

[sui generis]

44. I have to wonder why.

Are you excusing homicidal ideation as perfectly normal? That's how I read that.

[NM_hemilover]

55. I know that's how you read it, that's why I don't agree with you n/t

[sui generis]

56. Standards. We gotta have standards.

My standards are higher. Killing as "acting out" is not excusable as criminal-but-sane.

I'm not saying put every person who kills into permanent psychiatric custody either, if that's what you're worried about.

Just saying people who are willing to kill should be chipped and neutered and spayed like any dangerous animal. Okay, I'm ALMOST serious about that last sentence. :P

[NM_hemilover]

77. no worries,

I just have little tolerance or sympathy for anyone who kills without cause like this zero. I agree the guy was nuts, but not mentally insane, a selfish murderer who inflicted pain and suffering on strangers and their families for his personal financial/political story, to "teach a lesson". No regard for the pain he dealt out, but wanted to be sure others read about his pain. Low.. very very low on the food chain.

[Better Today]

40. Based on your comment, all our sodiers "ain't right up in the head"

Monumental fail. What about people who've killed in self defense? Your statement is too broad and too vague to be of any value whatsoever.

[Name removed]

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[Better Today]

45. Even with you newly added qualifications, I think you fail on many levels here.

First off it sounds like the guy tried for years to get things straightened out, meaning to me, he didn't have a ingrained compulsion to kill anyone. Secondly, he didn't kill anyone except himself that we know of at this time.

Thirdly, soldiers don't just kill soldiers, so that whole line is nothing but BS or complete naivete.

I neither like nor dislike your tone, it's yours to do with as you choose, and not mine to be a judge of.

[sui generis]

47. oh good grief

now the underhanded accusation of naivete?

Here's a blanket rule to snuggle up under: if you're likely to kill you're not right in the head. That was not a late-coming qualification.

And soldiers who like to kill aren't right in the head either. And lard ass gun toting paranoids who think they need a gun at the candy store who are willing to shoot someone for giving them a fright aren't right in the head either.

What part of killing = not right in the head did you miss? Nobody's naive here. I just have higher standards for compos mentis than SOME people here do.

[Better Today]

50. Hmm, then all of human history is full of people not right in the head.

Killing is natural for humans, unfortunately. Our histories are full of killing for "good" reasons and for "bad" reasons. You are clearly thinking in some Utopian terms to believe otherwise. We are taught not to kill, it is not natural for humans to not want to kill, we are taught to not act on those desires. This is evidenced by the fact that rules regarding killing are through out human history, this means that it must have needed to be pointed out as a "bad" choice. More evidence in today's world exist in media, movies, and games, where killing is rampant and somehow great because they are the most popular items around... the show "24", Grand Theft auto, any of the military "games" used to coerce teens to join up.

Yes, I see naivete in your perspective. It would be ideal if your perspective were accurate, it just isn't.

[sui generis]

54. "killing is natural for humans"

sounds like a true sociologist and historian :silly: Not even a little bit. You sound a bit adolescent madame. And you've misappropriated and misused the word "Utopian" in this context. And you used "we are taught" in passive voice, which tells me you are no expert in these matters, and your opinions are borrowed at best.

Books, literature, and the boob toob are not adequate descriptions of what we are. People like me insist that humans have standards - that's not utopian, it's reality. You start with a definition of what you want, not a homogenous opinion that incorporates terms like "good" or "bad", which are subjective terms and have no place in my world. I am clearly nothing like you, and I have studied the application of physical violence meticulously and personally as a hobby and an art.

Silly naive person. Go away.

[Better Today]

57. People like me insist,. . . oh p-lease. Insist all you want, but it isn't

accurate to suggest that those standards that you insist on are not taught to us, rather than being inherent in our nature.

Let's look closely here, "People like me insist that human have standards - that's not uptopian, it's reality"

Insisting is the keyword that you seem unable to grasp, the fact that you and people like you, and like me because I certainly want standards as well, have to insist, have to lay out those standards, have to lay out consequences for those standards when not met, and so on. Proving unequivocably that the idea that behaving as you "insist" is an ideal in this world, and that behaving otherwise would only be "normal" rather than "a mental disorder" in a Utopian world.

Thank you for proving my point. You're quite lovely for doing so.

[sui generis]

58. we're speaking entirely different languages

And you are still fucking up the proper use and application of the term Utopian. You are not a brilliant mind on this topic, so do yourself a favor and stop hurting yourself by continuing to prove it in every reply.

To split the hair for you: the "insistence" is in the definition of what is acceptable to the norm. There are atavistic humans and there are the rest of us. If you think the norm is barely controlled murderous impulse in all humans, then I'd invite you to go visit with a therapist, because your worldview probably comes from within. Atavism is not the norm.

Utopia has NOTHING at all to do with anything I've said, in any way whatsoever, or especially with anything you've said. You're mixing your myopic freshman sociology up with real world reality hon. It's not lovely or cute or any other girlie-ism; it's just underinformed.

[Better Today]

59. Brilliant mind? Hmmm, and you think you are a brilliant mind?

You seem way more intent on name-calling and rudeness for me to think much of the opinions that you keep tripping over. You can continue to argue with facts and history, but it remains true that killing is part of the human psyche controlled only through environmental obstacles put in place by governments and communities. Killing, thinking of killing, and in general vengefulness that leads to such, are not mental disorders. They are completely natural and part of nearly every humans thought processes at some point(s) in their lives. Resisting the desire to act upon such thoughts is a learned behavior.

[Name removed]

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[sui generis]

101. the only thing that "remains true"

in your self serving self defining argument so far is that you're not describing any reality except your own, and generalizing to everyone.

I'm a little creeped out that you think NOT-killing is the learned behavior. I think killing is the learned behavior - unless you live in the wild wild west or a cave.

[Brickbat]

46. I object to your use of the word "retarded" in these contexts.

[sui generis]

48. it's intentional nonPC

However, object away. I'll continue to use away. Objection noted.

[Political Heretic]

91. No, actually you won't

As moderation, suggests. :hi:

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

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[kudzu22]

12. To quote Chris Rock

"Who gives a fuck what kinda music they listened to? Whatever happened to crazy? What, you can't be crazy no more?"

[Dhalgren]

17. This is just the tip of the iceberg. The violense is going to get

worse and wider spread. A lot of the things Stack says in his "manifesto" are absolutely true and more and more folks are coming to realize these things. The US Government and this society deal in violence - you may not like to hear that, but it is a fact - violence is how this government functions on a daily basis. To suppose that citizens pushed to their last bit of humanity will not fight back with violence is naive. The Stacks are going to grow exponentially over the next year or two - people have no options.

The Bishop woman is a lunatic and needs to be dealt with as such, but Mr. Stack, while he may be a lunatic, is at least one who was created by this lunatic social system and that is something we all need to be aware of...

[leftstreet]

21. And the M$M will frame these incidences as isolated

They'll 'analyze' every last detail down to what the 'loner' ate for breakfast, all the while ignoring the collective experience of pushing back.

[Jennicut]

28. Yes, but because of the violence their grievances are not looked at seriously.

[cali]

42. his screed was crap

he was a businessman in some financial trouble. I don't believe for a moment that he gave a fuck about anyone but his own sorry ass. And the evidence for that lies in his own acts. And no, I doubt, much as some sick fucks wish it, that the Stacks will grow exponentially over the next year or so. I hate to break this to you since you but violent crime is down.

And it is such bullshit to claim that this businessman was created by the system. I'm looking forward to proving that to you as more information is revealed about this privileged fuck who flew his own plane into a building to get back at the gov't.

created by the system my ass.

[Dhalgren]

52. I guess some fucks are just stuck on themselves, huh?

.

[cali]

53. I guess you don't have an argument- with or without "fucks"

[Better Today]

51. Well said.

[NM_hemilover]

20. Perfectly stated, agree completely.

[Better Today]

24. I not ashamed to say I do give a shit. And furthermore,

I think the idea that "we" don't give a shit is one reason why things remain so screwed up that people do such things in the first place. There are hundreds of thousands of citizens who feel exactly the same way regarding the IRS bullying and overall tactics that focus on little guys instead of big corporations. If "we" were giving a shit about all of them, all of us, perhaps many of the ills of this country that are and have since the 1980s fallen on the middle class individuals wouldn't still be issues driving people mad with despair, anger, and vengefulness.

[redqueen]

34. I think you missed the significance of this phrase:

"Once you cross the line to murderous rampage"

We all feel sympathy for people who are having hard times.

Details matter.

[Better Today]

37. No, I did not. The fact is that no one was paying attention to his

or any of the hundreds of thousands of IRS victims, and if this idea of cali's to ignore the reasoning is spread very far, they will still be ignored. I say pay attention to his reasons, listen to his despair, and help make sure there isn't another incident like this by demanding a simpler, kinder IRS and related codes.

[redqueen]

49. He was an IRS victim?

Seemed more like he joined one of those "we don't have to pay taxes" groups.

Are those people victims too?

[Violet_Crumble]

97. He was a tax-evader, not a victim...

Also, you made a claim that the IRS focuses on individuals rather than big business. I could go off and track down their latest annual report to see for myself what they focus on, but I'm just curious to know whether you work there to know what they supposedly do or don't focus on, or are you relying on things you read in the media?

[TerryJ2]

106. I care and agree w/Stack, to a point.

***I think the idea that "we" don't give a shit is one reason why things remain so screwed up that people do such things in the first place. There are hundreds of thousands of citizens who feel exactly the same way regarding the IRS bullying and overall tactics that focus on little guys instead of big corporations. If "we" were giving a shit about all of them, all of us, perhaps many of the ills of this country that are and have since the 1980s fallen on the middle class individuals wouldn't still be issues driving people mad with despair, anger, and vengefulness.***

I agree. Our country was based on a violent revolution. Sometimes that's what it takes. Unfortunately, Stack aimed for IRS office wkrs rather than the people who actually wrote the codes(s) and/or voted for them. Everything is so complicated in this country, it's nearly impossible to pinpoint just one person, say, like King George.

I disagree w/killing innocent people. I don't know anyone who thinks they should go around killing IRS workers, but know lots and lots of people who think the taxation system is wrong and don't know what to do about it.

The strange thing is, that most people are talking about what lunatic he is instead of WHY he did what he did, when his online blog explained it quite clearly.

[Prism]

26. I really miss having plain old crazy people

Nowadays, the instant someone snaps, the media and armchair commentariat start combing through that person's politics, rubbing their hands together in perfect glee, in the hope that there rests apossibility the nutjob will share at least some of their opponent's politics.

Remember when people were just plain crazy? It wasn't that long ago.

Now "Zomg, it's the Tea Partiers!" or in the case of Amy Bishop "Look at the crazy liberal!"

Sure, people may be dead, but let's not have that slow anyone's cheap attempt to score the lowest and most craven of political points. Death and tragedy are secondary. It's the "fun" we can having blaming our opponents that's the real issue here.

[Jennicut]

27. There were always be people angry at the govt. The problem is when it moves into violence.

Violence accomplishes what? Attention to the problems of society, failings of govt? That welfare-type capitalism sucks? No, it makes these people and their issues seem insane and therefore not legitimate. Violence is an option not needed.

[sfwriter]

31. Canaries in the coal mine...

This guy started out in the wacko right early on.

[izzybeans]

33. They both seem like they brought their problems on themselves.

Bishop seems to have been a horrible professor and an unproductive researcher while Stack seems to have willingly tried to cheat on his taxes and then complained about being caught.

[ljm2002]

35. Hear, hear!

Both of them totally absorbed in their own world view, centered around themselves. Everything that goes wrong in their lives is someone else's fault, even when you can see they actively brought negative things into their own lives.

Deranged, both of them.

[cali]

36. well said. n/t

[Bitwit1234]

38. These type of people are cowards

the stand behind a gun or a bomb that is directed at innocent and DEFENSELESS people. What's more cowardly?

[proteus_lives]

39. Agree 100%

:thumbsup:

[SoCalDem]

60. EVERYBODY has grievances, but killing people is never the "solution"

these people are mentally ill, angry people, but they function alongside us all..until they snap..and afterward, it's too late:(

[DevonRex]

61. Thank you for the breath of fresh air.

:hug:

[cali]

62. thanks. more than happy to do it. those here melting over this

asshole's gratuitous bit of marxist dogma in his screed, are ignoring the reality that this fuckwad was simply a tax cheating businessman who blamed everyone but himself for his own failure. It's pathetic.

[DevonRex]

64. Wow, you really said it all right there.

And good lord, who knows if he even believed that bit of marxist dogma to begin with. For all we know that was his little way of allowing the Freeper nuts to blame this on liberals yet again.

[Toucano]

66. Too bad. There's a lot to be learned here. n-t

[cali]

73. perhaps there is

and in fact I didn't say there wasn't. I was expressing what I felt about people who do hideous things like this. They do not have my sympathy.

[Toucano]

75. I for one, agree with much of what Joe Stack wrote.

But I do not agree with his conclusion that "violence is the only answer". That's completely wrong. Fatally.

And I don't agree with his final action.



But I definitely agree that the rich are bailed out while the industrious middle class is allowed to suffer humiliation after humiliation. Over and Over again.

Chrysler was bailed out in the early 80's while thousands of independent farmers went under. Now Chrysler's in trouble again. Again with the bailout.

Air traffic controllers? Fired.
Other union members? Decimated.

People who ran AIG into the ground got paid huge bonuses and the government said, "There's nothing we can do about it. It's in their contract!"

Those contracts should have bee nullified BEFORE they were bailed out, or didn't any of these "smartest guy in the room" types think of that?


This is a fascist government that supports the interests of the wealthy at every turn and opposes the working people with equal ferocity. It isn't blue or red, D or R.

It is tyranny. But flying a plane into a government building does SQUAT to change it.

[cali]

79. what do you thnk this guy was? some poor downtrodden worker?

No. He lived in a wealthy area of Austin. He owned a private plain and his nutty screed was all about how he didn't feel he should have to pay taxes with crap about healthcare and quote from Marx thrown in to the mix.

[Toucano]

82. You don't know what wealthy is.

Which is a huge part of the problem in the U.S.


He never said "he didn't feel he should have to pay taxes".

He said the tax code is needlessly complex and rigged for those at the top. He cited a specific section of the tax code that affected his industry specifically.

That is not unlike the farmers who got screwed by similar targeted tax regulations and government handouts for the corporate class - the congressional peers.

He cited the lost pensions of the steelworkers in Pennsylvania. This was not a "natural disaster", but a calculated act with an acceptable number of victims. Victims from the wrong segment of society - not congressional peers.

Regarding health care, he said, "...they see no crisis as long as the dead people don't get in the way of their corporate profits rolling in."

That absolutely true. He could have added that the system is so corrupt that in Louisiana 85% of the people polled favored health care reform (before the corporate media had a chance to work them over) while their Senator voted against it.

Maybe you just skimmed the "nutty screed".

[cali]

85. I read the nutty screed three times

and the guy had a history of not paying his taxes. he was an anti-tax nut. And sorry, having grown up in New Canaan, CT and attended prep school, I'm more than aware of what wealthy is, dear.

[Toucano]

87. In that case, your only excuse is obtuseness. n-t

[cali]

88. I beg to differ and I so look forward

to rubbing it in your smug face.

[Toucano]

92. I won't give you the satisfaction, Darling.

:hi:

[Political Heretic]

94. And yet just days ago you were explaining how fully connected to poverty you are...

Yes I'm sure that white Connecticut upper class Ne Canaan and rich prep school life really paves the way to identifying with structural poverty and social inequality :eyes:

Not to mention the fact that one master's degree can be explained with student loans. Two can be explained by a deep level of social privilege. So congrats! Enjoy your good fortune, hopefully you've made the most of it. I hope we will find aways to give similar opportunities to a greater number of people in our society, but I don't wish you would have somehow had "less" fortune.

Just stop playing both sides of the fence.

[cali]

95. yes I am poor

and no I'm not going to get into how that happened. it's personal. period. but I've been poor a good while now. believe it or don't that's fine with me.

[LanternWaste]

104. Allowing time, one does not deny the other.

Allowing time, one does not deny the other.

[TerryJ2]

107. It was a very specific rant

****He never said "he didn't feel he should have to pay taxes".

He said the tax code is needlessly complex and rigged for those at the top. He cited a specific section of the tax code that affected his industry specifically.****


Correct.

***Maybe you just skimmed the "nutty screed".***

I agree.

[spanone]

67. when you're willing to take innocents with you, you are beyond any grievances

you are a deranged killer.

[apocalypsehow]

72. Kick, Rec. n/t.

[blogslut]

74. Fuck that guy

And fuck anybody that sympathizes with him.

[Orsino]

78. Well, since we didn't give a shit about 'em *before* their murderous rampages...

...why stop now?

[cali]

80. why should I give a shit about some rich guy who doesn't

want to pay his taxes?

[Orsino]

96. We could spare a little sympathy, if not much empathy...

...for a person so clearly mentally ill, and those grieving the loss of their friend/family member.

[Toucano]

83. +1

Why indeed.

[sendero]

86. Same here..

.... if you can't go on and want to off yourself, fine.

Leave the rest of us out of it.

[slackmaster]

99. AMEN

K&R

:kick:

[Tarheel_Dem]

103. Definitely needed to be said. Thank You. We should all be so fortunate..

as to live in a swanky suburb, and own a private plane. His apologists here make me want to vomit.

[cliffordu]

105. Yep. K&R