Kestrel's official position on "raw food diets" for pets:

[kestrel91316]

First of all, this will be fairly brief. I am on my crappy old computer at home. Doing any research on it is nearly impossible due to Windows ME, 15 GB hard drive, Pentium 3 processor, and dial-up. So I am not going to be able to post links for everything I think should be here. My internet service at the office (where I have a GREAT computer) has gone out 4 times in 8 days, and is down again (thank you, AT&T DSL, you total POS). I will add additional comments and links to published, peer-reviewed research and official government and NGO policies once I can get online at the office again.

There appears to be some confusion about where I stand with respect to feeding pets raw foods (raw meats, in particular). I was posting a reply to a thread about this earlier today when I lost the internet. The poster seemed to think, for some unfathomable reason, that I had said pets should be gradually switched onto raw foods.

PLEASE NOTE: I DO NOT advocate ANY feeding of raw meats to dogs or cats EVER. This ALWAYS constitutes a risk to the animal's health AND MORE IMPORTANTLY a risk to the health of humans who may have contact with the animal in question.

Raw meats are ALWAYS contaminated with bacteria to some degree when they are purchased. This is inevitable. Germs come with the territory, and the government position is that sterility can not be achieved nor should it be sought for raw meats. It is simply not achievable.

The bacteria commonly found in/on raw meats and likely to cause illness are Salmonella, Campylobacter, and E. coli O157H7. Raw meats may also contain, within the flesh, parasites such as Trichinella, Toxoplasma, and tapeworms. Of these, Toxoplasma is the biggest danger.

Salmonella can make dogs and cats seriously ill and even cause their death. IIRC Campylobacter can also (when I can surf the net I can look up sources on this). Toxoplasma may or may not make any particular cat ill or cause its death, but its greatest danger is to unborn human fetuses. Generic E. coli is ubiquitous in meat packing plants, and anywhere it is found, it may be accompanied by its evil twin, E. coli O157H7, a notorious killer. I do not have information this evening as to whether that one can harm dogs or cats, but it bears looking into. The point is, contaminated meats can AND DO make dogs and cats ill and even cause their deaths with some frequency.

Pets infected with these pathogens may pass them on to humans. The young, the old, the chronically ill and the immunosuppressed are particularly vulnerable. Dogs and cats frequently become asymptomatic carriers of Salmonella and have been widely shown to then pass the infection on to humans. These humans are at risk of serious illness and even death. Same problem with Campylobacter, though I do not recall offhand if an asymptomatic carrier state exists for it. Animals and their food dishes and toys and such may act as fomites for transmission of these pathogens.

The evidence is clear. It is indisputable fact that raw meats should not be fed to dogs or cats because of the disease risk to the pets and the risk of zoonotic disease in humans.

I have been viciously attacked for pointing this out on other threads. But it is my firm belief that, if someone is going to make an outlandish claim that is FAR outside the realm of mainstream scientific thought, it is incumbent upon the claimant to prove their case. My case has already been proved, time after time, in refereed journal after refereed journal, and in study after study.

If you are going to call me a liar (and you people know who you are) you had better be able to back up your claims that raw meat is harmless with some published, peer-reviewed data of your own. I will not accept the rantings of some mad internet bloviator as fact. I don't care HOW many breeders advocate it, or how many "alternate practitioners" in my own profession do. That doesn't make it safe.

I took my professional oath very seriously 26 years ago. I have a duty to the public, and when I see advocacy of something so potentially deadly as feeding raw meats to pets, I intend to speak out.

As I said, when I can navigate the internet normally I will post links to my sources and back up what I say. It's unfortunately not possible to do so tonight.

For those who will no doubt attack me again for daring to speak out, you are on notice. I will aggressively alert on anyone who attempts to start in with the flaming. If you think raw meats are the greatest thing since sliced bread, go back to one of your many threads already here. This one's my baby.

[RevCheesehead]

1. Those are the same ass-wipes who think global warming is a myth.

I want to thank you for taking the time to reassure us, help us, answer tons of questions, and even tell us to calm down. We are so fortunate to have someone like you here!!!

Ruth, Oreo, CC, and Keith (my 3 furbabies)

[LeftyMom]

2. We get to disallow disagreement and constructive criticism from our threads in main forums?

I could care less about the raw/cooked debate, and I'd never feed raw because you couldn't pay me enough to touch raw flesh, but I'm pretty sure DU doesn't work that way.

[MonkeyFunk]

5. Yes

but the considered opinion, backed up with research, of a veterinarian trump the "feel-good" opinions of lay-people.

[kestrel91316]

7. I'm posting in GD because I was unable to find that GD post that I was

originally responding to when my internet died.

This is an issue of general interest. Given the number of GD threads in the last three weeks advocating feeding raw meats in a hysterical overreaction to the pet food recall, I think it's only fair to allow me to speak on it here also.

[LeftyMom]

15. I'm not saying it doesn't belong in GD. I'm just saying you can't say "no disagreement"

I'm not a fan of raw diets, but I don't think that's right at all.

[uppityperson]

19. Did you miss this part?

"If you are going to call me a liar (and you people know who you are) you had better be able to back up your claims "

[philosophie_en_rose]

172. Of course, you can say "no disagreement."

But that won't stop anyone from disagreeing. :)


I'm not a fan of raw diets either. (as if terriers are the natural predators of cows!)

[hang a left]

12. You know I think that is a right.

I have asked people to get off of my threads. There are thousands of threads on this site find one or create your own. People looking for arguments and fights when a poster desires discussion on a particular subject, are trouble makers.

Start your own thread and flame away.

[LeftyMom]

18. I'm not looking to fight with her, I don't feed raw and don't want to.

I just think that declaring in advance that there's no debate to occur on a thread is contrary to the whole point of discussion boards generally and DU in particular. That's what blogs with comments turned off are for.

[roseBudd]

3. Two cats who did die of septicemic salmonella were DNA matched to the same...

salmonella found in their raw meals. It was on DVM mag online but I can no longer find it. They were cattery cats, hence the advanced post mortem work.

Also some cats fed raw ground whole rabbit during a raw food trial exhibited taurine deficiency resulting in death from dilated cardiomyopathy and the trial was stopped.

[MonkeyFunk]

4. Thank you Kestrel

You've been a rare point of sanity in these discussions. I very much appreciate your efforts.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

6. but why not get a Mac?

you can navigate the tubes, you can run windoze and apple OS AND you get a great laptop without being tied to desk machine.

but, thank you so much for your information. I have learned a lot.

My three pups eat nothing but dry food, unless I am cooking and make a mess. they like when I cook.

so far no troubles. and talking about 300 lbs of fur, that is saying something.

[kestrel91316]

9. I love my Dell at the office. So that's what I am going to get for home soon.

Don't ask me what I think of Gateway after 6 1/2 years suffering with this thing.........

[orleans]

45. dell is the company bush gave a plug to during a speech

something about "when you turn on your dell computers"

http://opensecrets.org/softmoney/softcomp1.asp?txtName=dell

dell is a wing of the gop

[kestrel91316]

83. Well, they make a computer that meets my needs. I'm happy with it.

Show me a blue company that has an equivalent product.

[orleans]

86. i wish i could. (don't know your needs, don't know computers much either)

but while i have your attention...

have you heard about this vitamin d3 business in the pet foods?

what is your thought on all of that now?

(as gilda said: if it's not one thing it's another)

i bought a couple bags of new food last week and started giving my dog newman's organic. well, that has the vitamin d3 supplement in it.

so, i'm going to open the bag of natural balance organic without the d3 supplement and try that one.

(this is really getting to be too much! where the hell is the fda? --that's a hypothetical since i know this administration has destroyed it)

[kestrel91316]

98. There is no reason to believe that the toxin in the recalled food

is too much Vitamin D.

Vitamin D toxicosis causes marked hypercalcemia and hyperphosphatemia. The clinical picture of the poisoned animals does not fit, as they are NOT seeing hypercalcemia.

No hypercalcemia = NO VITAMIN D poisoning.

PETA is promoting this. Apparently they think we vets are too stupid to diagnose that one, and we have (all 70,000 of us) overlooked the obvious diagnosis, lol.

[mike_c]

8. perhaps something further needs to be said about pet "biological" diets....

It's not true that raw diets precisely mimic the "natural diets" eaten by wild carnivores. Setting aside the issue of composition for a moment, what often escapes notice is that while prey are indeed raw, they were closed packages with functioning immune systems up until the time they were killed. Raw meat from previously slaughtered animals is a bacterial growth medium, and as you point out, the industrial scale of the meat packing industry precludes any serious attempt at sterility.

Also, carnivores can and do acquire both pathogens and parasites from their raw prey. That too is "natural" and "biological" but it's not something I want to happen to my cats.

[kestrel91316]

30. I always like your perspective, mike c. You think of things that never

occur to me.

[HamdenRice]

129. Even further, most dogs were not predators

I won't get into the details here, but was discussing this on the Pet forum. Basically, my argument is that while wolves may eat raw meat, dogs have evolved for the last several thousands years to eat human left overs and scavenge human garbage. For all that time, humans have been eating cooked food.

So I don't understand the whole notion that dogs naturally ate raw food anyway. Dogs are not wolves, although they are closely related. Even feral dogs will choose to scavenge human food rather than hunt if given the choice.

I know people want to think of their dogs as noble savages, but in their "natural state" they are actually friendly tail wagging garbage disposals.

[Ayesha]

10. There is plenty of opposing evidence

And no, I'm not going to try to sit here and look it all up, because I'm busy with other things. However, I will say that my previous vet, who was not an alternative practitioner, supported raw feeding. Animals in the wild eat raw, their stomachs are designed for it. Their mouths have antibacterial properties so that prevents passing any germs on to people.

I do not currently feed raw, but have in the past and support those who do. Hundreds of high-quality breeders, including most breeders of working dogs, now feed raw. Thousands of vets support it. Hundreds of people with service and therapy dogs feed raw with no impact on the disabled people they help. As far as I know the major therapy dog registries don't ban raw feeding of animals that visit immune compromised persons.

Raw feeding is not for everyone or every dog, but to make a blanket statement against it is IMHO, irresponsible.

[hang a left]

13. Well if you "don't have the time"

Why use what precious little you have to post here.

[kestrel91316]

16. Post the peer-rerviewed literature to support your position or take it elsewhere.

You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

21. peer reviewed?

how quaint. The idea of SCIENCE, experience, intelligence, education and insight having meaning in the era of Bush.

But, again, I thank you kestrel.

My youngest pup had a scare. He chewed a quarter of a small bottle of gorrilla glue. THAT STUFF KILLS DOGS AND CATS. (A family friend - guest borrowed it, left it on a table and my youngest is so big, he simply looked down and grabbed ate, and more.

Luckily, he vomited out most of the glue, then passed the rest. This stuff expands 10 TIMES its size and blocks the sphincters of any animal. When you have a 100 lb ten month old, they chew enough even then to have a problem.
But a warning to all NEVER ALLOW GORILLA GLUE OUT WITH PETS. Unless they are named Darth.

[kestrel91316]

25. I've heard about that stuff. NASTY. The dog vets see it, but I never have.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

29. my vet AND the corporation were both G R E A T

truly, the best service in an emergency situation. The corporation (Can't believe I say this) was reactive, suggestive, helpful and in constant contact with my vet.
The vet hates surgery, tried a natural approach, and it worked.

My friend has not been told, nor will I, but I will keep gorilla glue hidden away.

[mike_c]

24. I think it's ironic that after pointing out why raw meat is not the same...

...as raw prey, the very next post contains the statement "Animals in the wild eat raw, their stomachs are designed for it."

Actually, as far as that goes, our stomachs are too. Yet I guarantee you that while your digestive system might appreciate raw meat, your immune system will not unless you either eat the meat very fresh, or preserve it while it's very fresh.

[philosophie_en_rose]

173. Very interesting.

I find it hilarious that some people seem to think that poodles and yorkies naturally prey on cows and pigs and sheep.

[bettyellen]

27. pets have magic antibacterial mouths? LOL! that's f'ing pricelss!

[kestrel91316]

33. The many bite wounds in my hands over the years are proof that there's

nothing magically antibacterial about their mouths, lol. Au contraire.

I wound up at the ER in the middle of the night a few years ago when a hand bite got massively infected in spite of the antibiotics I was taking. They gave me a REALLY painful injection of something, but it worked. Red streaks all gone in the AM.

[bettyellen]

34. LOL, we all want to be in denial because they lick our faces, but they go right from their asses

to our collective mouths without so much as a wipe to the paw.

[kestrel91316]

36. Interestingly enough, the bacteria that cause problems with bite wounds are

usually NOT butt-end bacteria. E. coli and its buddies find the oral cavity inhospitable due the huge resident population of other bugs. Pasteurella is the one that cats infect each other with in their fights, and it often causes cat bite infections in humans, too.

DF2 (dysgonic fermenter-2) is a NASTY bug that dog bites can spread - kills people PDQ. Fortunately it's infrequent. Don't know if it's from the butt, or lives in the mouth, or what..........

We try not to dwell on these things as we go off to work every morning.......lol.

[Jo March]

73. "butt-end bacteria"?!?

:rofl:

That is so gross and yet so funny at the same time!!!

[yardwork]

75. My cat recently got a bad abscess from a fight

The wound was so small that I didn't even see it until he hindquarters blew up like a water balloon and he stopped eating. I took him to the vet to have it drained. I'm very careful about not letting him outside even for a minute now.

Two weeks ago he accidentally broke the skin on my hand while we were playing and I got a very sore infection there - there's still a mark.

The germs in cat's mouths are no joke.

[kestrel91316]

99. "....My cat recently got a bad abscess from a fight...."

Ah, my favorite thing - cat bite abscess, lol!

That was likely due to our old friend, Pasteurella multocida.

[ebayfool]

41. Yeah ... that's why I ended up on an antibiotic I.V. drip in the emergency room

when a dog bit my lip almost completely off. Followed after release w/an intense & pricey round of antibiotics to take at home, because it STILL got infected! The E.R. docs said if it had been a more 'dispensable' body part, they would have just finished taking it off instead of trying to reattach & save it - the bacteria from a dog bite are sooooo nonexistent!

They said that in ANY dog bite, the threat of infection is enormous - think of the stuff most pets try to eat ... feces, carcasses, etc.

I think I'll take your 'expert opinion' here w/a very large grain of salt.

Or not at all.




"Their mouths have antibacterial properties so that prevents passing any germs on to people."

[yellowcanine]

92. Problem with this argument is that pets are not wild animals. They have been artificially selected

by man and that includes what they eat - which is what people want them to
eat and more nearly resembles (or may actually be in many cases) human food than wild prey. So it is not helpful to compare pets to wild animals.

[libnnc]

11. Seeing how lax the government has been with inspecting meat

for human consumption, and what falls through the cracks of the system, (remember the 60 Minutes piece in the '70s on poultry processing plants? :puke: ) I'd never, ever feed my dog or cat raw anything.

We're feeding our dog cooked meat, rice and cheap canned veggies until this crap gets figured out. Our 9 month old cat is getting Science Diet Kitten dry (hoping that's still okay).


I'll leave you with this: My late uncle worked his way through vet school (NC State)
as a poultry inspector. He never, EVER, ate chicken from the grocery store or from a restaurant. The only chicken he'd eat was what he raised on his small farm. He was adamant about that.

[kestrel91316]

17. Idon't recommend kitten food beyond 6-9 months of age.

They get too fat, lol.

[libnnc]

26. She is getting pretty um.....thick.

On the bag it said up to a year but I'll start giving her some adult food soon.

[mockmonkey]

165. They won't like it at first

They just love all that fatty kitten food and won't think much of the Adult food. It will take a few days for them to get over it. Our 6 month old kittens were aghast at what they found in their plates.

Today, two of them are going to the vet to be neutered and boy are they pestering us for food. They had to fast since last night for surgery.

[kestrel91316]

169. That's why we do gradual transitions of food where possible.

Cats are creatures of habit. They especially want the SAME food in the SAME place at the SAME time every day, or there's hell to pay!

[tblue37]

40. Most canned veggies are high in sodium and

have also had most of their nutrients overcooked out of them?

Frozen vegetables are far more nutritious, because they are flash frozen at their peak of nutritiousness.

[sniffa]

14. you are brave for speaking out

:rofl:

[kestrel91316]

22. I don't exactly need courage when I have facts on my side.

Too bad it takes me 5 minutes to get from DU to any other website on this computer, lol. Can't exactly go cutting and pasting and pointing and clicking to gather documentation.

I am mad as a wet hen over my internet problems. So I'm in no mood to be trifled with!

[Truthiness Inspector]

20. Thank you

Your posts have been the best on this topic, with so much misinformation flying around.

[pnwmom]

23. Thank you, kestrel, for all your time

and efforts spent on educating us!

And I was particularly happy to see your post today, because my husband undercooked our burgers tonight. When I insisted on recooking them, somehow that led to assertions that animals eat raw meat all the time and that's not a problem for them, etc., etc.

And our sons were sitting there thinking that their mom was overreacting . . .

[Ilsa]

28. Hey kestrel, my husband and I used to be avid

bird watchers and sometimes feeders, but feeding always scared me. I was a purist with hummingbird feeder water, insisting on no dyes, and preferably not a pure sugar water, ut a special fructose solution or something (I can't remember, it's been so long). Anyway, I digress. Sometimes the school teachers send home cones with peanut butter and birds seed all over them. Is PB okay for birds?

BTW, excellent post. And toxoplasmosis, if passed on to a pregnant woman, can cause severe fetal neurological problems.

[kestrel91316]

32. I know there are seed mixes for birds with peanuts in them, and I THINK

if they are roasted they are ok???

I can't look it up on this POS computer tonight. Windows ME has it pretty crippled up.

[Ilsa]

51. Don't sweat it right now on my account. When we are ready to do it

again, I'm going to do alot more research first on what is harmful to typical birds, resident and migratory, in our area.

My husband and I always used to say that if we could be rincarnated, we'd want to return as large waterfowl, like a brown pelican, especially if we could eat some good fish!

[semillama]

67. Peanut Butter is great with a caveat:

Get it unsalted. I don't know if salted PB is necessarily bad, but why take the risk?


Back on topic: Go, Kestrel! Don't let the flat earthers get you down.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

31. Thanks for all your good advice.

Like a lot of people I've been worried about what I should be feeding my cats (not just because of the recent wheat-gluten problem, but because there seems to be so much stuff in commercial cat food that I don't know what it is). And so I was tempted to try making food for them at home. Fortunately, they won't eat anything raw - they don't seem to like it (maybe they are smarter than I am). You've offered solid evidence and explanations for why raw food is not a good idea, and I do appreciate that a great deal. So we are back to Science Diet and Wellness, hoping for the best.

[amitten]

35. My cat eats raw now and has never been healthier. I will always

continue to feed him his (prepackaged and organic) raw diet.

[kestrel91316]

113. Like this stuff?

FDA detects Salmonella contamination in brand of raw cat food

The Food and Drug Administration is warning consumers not to use Wild Kitty Cat Food because of possible Salmonella contamination.

During routine monitoring, the FDA detected Salmonella organisms in a sample of frozen raw Wild Kitty Cat Food. As of Feb. 20, the warning covered the Chicken with Clam Recipe, 3.5 and 16 ounces; Raw Duck with Clam Recipe, 3.5 and 16 ounces; and Raw Tuna with Conch Recipe, 3.5 ounces.

The Wild Kitty Cat Food company voluntarily recalled the products after initially refusing FDA requests to do so. The company had received no reports of illness in association with these products.

The company and the FDA are investigating the matter to determine the source of the problem, according to a Feb. 16 company press release, and will take any additional steps necessary to protect public health.

In the initial response to the FDA warning, the Wild Kitty Cat Food company stated that it follows FDA Guidance for Industry 122, "Manufacture and Labeling of Raw Meat Foods for Companion and Captive Noncompanion Carnivores and Omnivores." According to the Feb. 13 company statement, the Wild Kitty Cat Label product label includes guidelines that the FDA has recommended to ensure that consumers are aware of safe handling methods to limit the spread of bacteria.

The FDA has asked consumers to report any injuries or problems with Wild Kitty Cat Food to its Office of Emergency Operations at [phone].

The FDA warning and the company press release regarding the recall are available from the agency's Center for Veterinary Medicine at www.fda.gov/cvm.

[amitten]

157. No, but thanks for the head's up. The raw food I use is produced

under very strict safety standards, and doesn't use imported products.

He has no more chance of getting sick from it than from anything else.

[kestrel91316]

167. Imported meats aren't the culprit in foodborne illness associated

with "raw food" diets in dogs and cats in the US. The meats come from right here in the US.

"...He has no more chance of getting sick from it than from anything else...." Do you have factual evidence that kibble poses the same risk of Salmonella, Campylobacter, or E. coli O157:H7 that raw meats do???

:evilgrin:

I'll check back periodically to see if you do.

[amitten]

168. Well, it was recommended by my vet, who also comes from a

large family history of farmers, and who I trust completely.

Sorry...the DU advice doesn't sway me on this one. But thanks for your concern for my cat.

[NormanYorkstein]

37. I have been reading these treads about pet killing corporations

selling poisoned food and I am appalled. I am not a big animal person myself but this is horrific.

If what I read was true - that these companies sold killer pet food even after animals DIED after eating their food during tests - the people responsible should go to prison. I hope they sue the hell out of these criminals and bankrupt these crooked companies.

Again I'm not a big pet person myself but I have family and friends who love their animals and this sort of murder-by-cheapness deserves the fullest penalties of the law.

Plus I agree with the DU posters earlier who asked "why our we importing wheat from overseas" when we have such an efficient agricultural system here at home? The only reason it could be cheaper if they are skimping on safety - which seems the be the case, doesn't it?

[AZBlue]

66. Welcome to DU

:hi:

[mopinko]

38. you go kestrel

lots of luck, tho. the natural=always-perfect-always-right crowd are a religion unto themselves.

[kestrel91316]

59. Many vets on VIN have commented that the raw food fanaticism

is VERY MUCH LIKE religious fanaticism.

Because of this, I haven't the slightest interest in changing the opinions of "raw food believers". That is acknowledged to be impossible. They take it on faith that it's safe, and facts will never sway them.

I am posting this information in an effort to educate those who are considering using raw foods. Research indicates that INFORMED pet owners, when they know the facts about foodborne/zoonotic disease risk, are very likely to reject raw food diets.

[mopinko]

63. i have had many such conversations about

pelleted diets for birds. it is a "religion".

[hang a left]

39. btw

Any progress on what is poisoning animals??

I posted this ? in another one of your threads today.

[kestrel91316]

42. I am having internet troubles at the office so can't keep up with things, but

here's today's thinking:

Aminopterin has been totally ruled out.

Melamine is useful as a marker, 'cause it's THERE, but it's not likely to be the killer. There is apparently some other as-yet unidentified contaminant in the gluten that may be our killer.

The deaths and sick animals presenting to vets appear to be dropping off. Hard to say for sure. VIN is working madly to get the info in their database collated and into some sort of easily understandable format for us vets.

[Skittles]

43. thank you kestrel

I have avidly read your wisdom during this pet food crisis and appreciate your input

[troubleinwinter]

44. I am so grateful that you made this concise post

I would no more feed my pet raw meat than I would my child.

I don't object quite so much to those who insist on doing this in their own home (though I think they are foolish), but I DO MIND when people insist that others ought do it and link to irresponsible fad sites advocating the unsafe practice selling books and suppliments.

A recipe was posted on DU that included raw ground chicken to feed to cats. People are up in arms concerned about safety of what our pets are eating, and RAW GROUND CHICKEN is recommended??!!!! Would anyone of us eat it? Feed it to our family?

It seems to me that common sense would dictate that if poultry must be cooked for our family, it should be for our pets also.

Some say that it is 'natural' for cats and dogs to eat raw meat, as in the wild. Animals in the wild live short lives, partly due to eating meats containing disease, bacteria and parasites.

Animals can't make fire to make their food safer. We can do it for them.

[DreamOutLoud]

47. common sense?

"A recipe was posted on DU that included raw ground chicken to feed to cats. People are up in arms concerned about safety of what our pets are eating, and RAW GROUND CHICKEN is recommended??!!!! Would anyone of us eat it? Feed it to our family?

It seems to me that common sense would dictate that if poultry must be cooked for our family, it should be for our pets also.

Some say that it is 'natural' for cats and dogs to eat raw meat, as in the wild. Animals in the wild live short lives, partly due to eating meats containing disease, bacteria and parasites."

Nope, wouldn't feed it to a human (although did anyone see that Wife Swap episode with the whacky family who did eat raw meat??). We have much longer and different digestive systems. Common sense tells me that the quickly in and out systems in a dog, with really high acidic content, and teeth for tearing, are optimal for ingesting and digesting raw meat. And not all animals in the wild live short lives, and especially not from what they eat. How inneficient would nature be, to have the diet an animal pursues be the cause of it's demise?? No, usually the short life span is due to being the eatee.

[DreamOutLoud]

46. informed choice

"I took my professional oath very seriously 26 years ago. I have a duty to the public, and when I see advocacy of something so potentially deadly as feeding raw meats to pets, I intend to speak out."


I'm curious. How many hours of nutrition do vet students recieve? Who sponsors this portion of the education? I'd be interested in what studies back up your position. You have every right to speak out an opinion, as do all of us, but it is only that, not gospel, not The Truth, and how dare anyone question it.

The reality is, most people make an informed choice of what to feed their pets, based on whatever research they choose to do. That's what I did. And I feed raw. To my now six year old, extremely healthy German Shepherd, who is a Service dog, and a Therapy dog. I'm not a fanatic, as I believe there are a lot of very good foods out there. I've been trying out a new organic brand this last month, but alas, I can see it's causing some weight gain. My dog has always been extremely fit, (and he's neutered).

Here's a link. http://www.sojos.com/rawstudiesarticle.html It's the Pottenger study. I know there's not a lot out there. But it is true that dog's have a huge amount of enzymes that break down bacteria, in their mouths, and very acidic digestive systems. That's why they can eat putrid rotting meat, and be fine. (Not routinely, of course). Raw diets are fed to canids in zoo environments, why are they not becoming ill from this type of feeding?

It's like the vaccine debate. There's good points to either side, and in the middle. Studies are continually being done, and beliefs revised. This is good, progressive. All we can do is read up on what is available, and make our own informed decisions. I feed a commercially made, frozen (kills bacteria) raw diet to my dog, with a variety of nutrition sources. An extremely healthy dog tends to validate that I am making the right choice, for us.

[Ayesha]

48. Actually

Most people don't do research and carefully choose what food to buy. They buy whatever is cheapest at the grocery store. They'd prefer not to know that dead dogs and cats, byproducts, chemicals, preservatives, and waste are what makes up cheapie pet foods. If they need a special diet, they go to the vet. Most vets sell Hills, which is only marginally better than grocery store food, still full of low-end ingredients. I don't trust most vets to know about diet because they choose to sell that shit.

I don't blame pet owners; most people don't know better and trust well-known brand names and pictures of happy dogs on the can or bag. But I was not at all surprised when this recent tragedy began unfolding. It was only a matter of time.

I am not saying feed raw necessarily, I am saying pay attention to ingredients. Don't buy foods made with ingredients ruled not fit for human consumption. Don't buy the cheapest food at the store. Don't buy Hills or Science Diet just because that's what the vet sells. Raw is a big commitment, and part of that includes carefully choosing ingredients and/or monitoring pre-prepared foods for quality and freshness. It also includes monitoring your dog's health, his coat, energy level, weight, breath, digestion etc. It is NOT for everyone, and if you don't know what you're doing, yes, your pet could become ill. I choose not to feed raw because I have five dogs and I learned from experience that they all have different raw formulation needs, and it's impractical for me and my situation to do that. So I feed a kibble made with all human-grade ingredients, including organic meat. My dogs are incredibly healthy; for example, my Lab's coat feels like velvet instead of the coarse texture that many Labs have. It was the same when they ate raw.

BTW, kestrel and others, humans DO eat raw meat without becoming ill. Sushi!

You have the right to your opinion on raw diets. But it is incredibly arrogant to then say that nobody can argue with you unless they meet XYZ criteria. This is a discussion forum and as such, people are doing to discuss and debate things. If you are so convinced that you are right, you should welcome opposing views, not say you don't want to hear it.

[kestrel91316]

56. Fish was not meat last I checked. And it has its own risks:

http://www.google.com/search?q=raw+fish+parasites&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1

Enjoy some reading.

[kestrel91316]

55. How many "hours" of nutrition? Well, I don't recall exactly, but it

was AN ENTIRE SEMESTER-LONG bear of a course the same year I took pathology, sophomore year of vet school. It was, aside from freshman anatomy and junior musculoskeletal diseases, about THE MOST DIFFICULT COURSE IN VET SCHOOL. The course notes probably weighed 20 lb. It was part of the professional veterinary curriculum, not some "sponsored" lecture, lol.

Frankly, my nutrition education has NOTHING to do with the issue at hand, which is the fundamental safety of raw food diets in pets from an infectious/foodborne disease pespective. I have a BS in Microbiology from a top university, and then in vet school we also had one or two semesters of medical microbiology, and several weeks of epidemiology during our sophomore year pathology course.

What I am saying about the risk of foodborne disease and ensuing zoonotic disease risk to humans from feeding pets raw meat IS NOT OPINION. It is established medical fact.

MY OPINION is that anyone, knowing these risks, who feeds raw meat to a dog or cat, is either a complete moron or the worst sort of evil. That's an OPINION I don't have to provide source material for. It's my right to hold it.

BTW, the Pottenger study, IIRC, has been pretty seriously discredited over the decades (you really aren't citing 75-yr-old unsubstantiated research here, are you, lol???) as being poorly controlled. Surely you can do better than that.

[TZ]

76. There is NO debate on vaccines in the scientific community..

as well as in mainstream America. Its known that they are not 100% safe for people who aren't healthy, otherwise
vaccines are an accepted and much appreciated medical tool, like penicillin (which also can potentially hurt those who are allergic). Knowing what pets should eat is more than just a "nutrition class" btw. You also need to have a deep understanding of animal anatomy and physiology as well as pathology and other microbiology classes. Which of course vets are extremely well versed in. Canids and felids in zoo environments are NOT the same as domestic animals. Does a poodle look like a wolf to you? Its not just external differences. She is stating scientific facts on pathology and microbiology.
Its possible for your dog to eat raw foods for its entire life and not get sick, but feeding your animal raw is regarded as russian roulette-all it takes is ONE piece of contaminated food.
Your post shows a strong anti-scientific bias. There is a difference between an opinion and scientific fact, which is what Kestrel posted here. Any microbiological text will tell you so.

[DreamOutLoud]

164. not anti-science

"Your post shows a strong anti-scientific bias. There is a difference between an opinion and scientific fact, which is what Kestrel posted here. Any microbiological text will tell you so."

I'm most definitely not anti-science. The dog training I use is grounded in it! I was trying to say there are compelling arguments on either side, and I cited the Pottenger study as just one thing that's out there, when reading up on the topic. Vets may be well versed in anatomy,physiology, pathology and microbiology, but in the scope of all the learning, nutrition is a small amount. Look at who sponsors it, too. Science Diet.
Also, there are more wild canids out there than only wolves. Look at the Dingo. Still might not resemble a poodle, but it's still a dog. Last time I looked, they don't go hunting for Science Diet.
Sure there are risks. But they're small. Just look at how popular raw feeding has become, yet do we see a huge increase in these potential risks?

With vaccines, there certainly IS debate. Look at how recently the protocol was changed from yearly, to three years.

[yellowcanine]

95. My thought is that pets, being domesticated animals, neither resemble wild animals nor

zoo animals very much in their dietary requirements. The other issue is that even if a dog is more tolorant of, say salmonella, his handler is not, and there is a high risk of transmissiion by contact between dog and handler. Dogs and cats do fine on prepared cooked foods, whether prepared by the owner or commercial foods, the current problems aside - they are fairly rare in the grand scheme of things - so why introduce additional known and unknown risks?

[piesRsquare]

49. Here ya go, kestrel...

I posted the following on my blog (http://2blackcats.wordpress.com) on 3/25/07, and it includes a link to the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) along with an excerpt from one of their articles regarding the risks surrounding raw food diets (note to those who don't know: I'm a veterinary technician):

A Raw Food Diet is NOT the Answer!

An article being published in multiple newspapers on Sunday, 3/25/07 features a self-proclaimed dog nutrition specialist touting the “benefits” of a raw-food diet (sometimes known as BARF–Bones And Raw Food diet) for dogs. Apparently, she will be giving a public presentation, and was fielding phone calls all last week, as many people are considering a raw-food diet for their pets in response to the pet-food recall.

I am not linking to the article, as I stand by the American Veterinary Medical Association’s position on raw-food diets, and believe it would be professionally irresponsible to direct people reading my blog to “advice” that is against the interest of public health and safety.

The American Veterinary Medical Association’s scientifically-supported position on raw-food diets is that they are NOT recommended, “…because of the risk of foodborne illnesses in pets as well as the public health risks of zoonotic infections.” Feeding one’s pet a raw-food diet puts both pets and their owners at risk of salmonella and other pathogenic poisoning.

From Raw Meat Diets Spark Concern–American Veterinary Medical Association, January 15, 2005 (BlackCat Note: Emphasis Added):
http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/jan05/050115ww.asp

In recent years, feeding dogs raw meat has become increasingly popular. The trend, however, has sparked health concerns, because of the risk of foodborne illnesses in pets as well as the public health risks of zoonotic infections. Now, a new study that identifies potentially harmful bacteria in 21 commercial raw meat diets bolsters these concerns.

“This has some potential public health concerns for both the animals being fed these diets and their human owners,” said Dr. Rachel Strohmeyer, a researcher at the Animal Population Health Institute, Colorado State University…

“There is a greater apparent risk to animals and humans from feeding a raw meat diet,” Dr. Strohmeyer commented. “I really do not think that there is any advice we, as veterinarians, can give to improve safety. You can give basic food safety guidelines like hand washing, cleaning surfaces, and bowls, etc., not letting the food sit out for extended periods of time. I just think that it would be a disservice for a veterinarian to give any recommendation for the safety of dogs and their owners (except to not feed raw meat to pets). Bacteria are not the only health concern, there are also parasites and protozoal organisms that can be transmitted in raw meat, even meat labeled fit for human consumption.“

Other veterinarians, including Dr. Jeffrey LeJeune, a food safety molecular epidemiologist and microbiologist at The Ohio State University, agree that pets should not be fed raw meat. *End of Excerpt*

The loudest voices speaking up in favor of a raw-food diet tend to be those of breeders, show-dog handlers, and groomers–NOT medical specialists, scientists, researchers, or clinicians. The highest scientific and/or medical credential of the woman featured in the article is “veterinary technician”, which, I can personally attest (as I am a technician myself), does NOT constitute scientific expertise. “(She) said she doesn’t have a veterinarian’s opinion to offer because she hasn’t needed one…” and she says her recommendations are “supported” by “newspaper articles from around the country”.

It’s crucial that one acknowledge the limits of their knowledge, the limits of their expertise. I personally prefer to follow–and offer–the recommendations of recognized professionals in the field, and facts stated and published by university scientists. I am a just a veterinary technician; those people know a lot more than I do. Newspaper articles are not professional journal articles, and phone calls to veterinarians are not equivalent to peer-reviewed published research studies.

The genuine experts agree: Raw-food diets are risky business, and are NOT advised.

***
Updated pet food recall info: http://2blackcats.wordpress.com

[kestrel91316]

57. Thank you

[ScreamingMeemie]

50. I'm going to stick with my breeder, who's also a vet...if that's okay with you...?

Actually, I don't give a damn if it is. She knows a hell of a lot more about it. :hi:

[StefanX]

52. Thank you

Kestrel -- Thank you for contributing this information.

I often tend to think that "everything natural is good" so I had been feeding our dog raw meat sometimes lately. I hadn't thought about all the bacteria, but what you say makes sense.

I understand that in the wild, (the ancestors of modern) dogs ate raw meat of course. But that wasn't factory-produced and commercially-transported and -stored meat. It was fresh kill which had a living, functioning immune system until the canine got to it.

I remember reading a brochure a long time ago:

http://www.vivavegie.org/vv101/101reas98.html

which emphasizes how dirty the meat industry is. So while in the old days it may have been fine for canines to kill and eat their own meat raw, this wouldn't be the same as feeding them dirty industrial meat.

Personally I do think raw food is very healthy, if you can make sure that it's clean. (I eat a lot of raw veggies, which I peel/wash myself.) Unfortunately, given how dirty our meat industry is, I guess our pets can't enjoy the benefits of clean, raw meat.

Thank you for this info. From now on, our dog gets cooked meat!

[kestrel91316]

60. "....I eat a lot of raw veggies, which I peel/wash myself....."

Raw veggies carry minimal risk of foodborne diseases compared to meats.

That said, I strongly advise against raw fruits and veggies for pets, largely because of digestibility and nutrient availability issues. But that's not the topic on this thread.

[kestrel91316]

53. A good summary of three major foodborne pathogens of

potential risk to dogs and cats if fed raw meats: Salmonella, E. coli O157:H7, and Campylobacter. This info comes directly from USDA FSIS PHV training materials and as such addresses the public health significance and how they come to contaminate food. I will address how these three organisms affect animals in another post. Sorry the formatting is crappy.

If anybody wishes to challenge this factual info, you will need to cite published, peer-reviewed literature or some other acknowledged public health authority. Otherwise you get ignored, lol.


Pathogens and Infectious Agents of Concern from the Public Health Regulatory Perspective

Salmonella spp
Salmonella is a rod-shaped, motile bacterium (non-motile exceptions are S. Gallinarum and S. Pullorum), non-spore forming and Gram negative. This microorganism grows at 6.5- 47˚C, pH as low as 4.5, with or without air, and aw of >0.95 (may vary, e.g., S. Newport = 0.941 and S. Typhimurium = 0.945). The optimum growth temperature is at the human body temperature but it grows very poorly at refrigerated temperatures. Even though freezing and frozen storage can have some deleterious effect on Salmonella it is known that this microorganism remains viable for long periods of time in frozen foods. There are specific serotypes that are capable of producing foodborne illness (salmonellosis) including S. Enteritidis (eggs and egg products), S. Newport (milk and dairy cows), and S. Typhimurium (cattle) among others.

As of 2002 there were 2,541 Salmonella serotypes identified and approximately 2,000 serotypes cause human disease. The CDC has estimated 1.4 million cases occur annually in the United States but approximately 2.14% (culture-confirmed) of those cases are reported to CDC. Also, annual estimates of over 500 cases are fatal and 2% of the salmonellosis cases are complicated by chronic arthritis. Furthermore, salmonellosis is more common in the summer than winter. In 2004, a total of 35,661 isolates were reported from participating public health laboratories. From that total, the five most frequently reported Salmonella serotypes from Human sources reported (expressed in per cent) to CDC encompass S. Typhimurium (includes var. 5-)(19.2%), S.
Enteritidis (14.1%), S. Newport (9.3%), S. Javiana (5.0%), and S. Heidelberg (4.9%). (PHLIS Surveillance Data, Salmonella at http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/phlisdata/salmonella.htm)

The cumulative (year-to date) of salmonellosis cases reported by CDC for the years 2004 and 2005 were 42,207 and 41,820, respectively. All age groups are susceptible to salmonellosis, but symptoms are most severe in the elderly, infants, and those individuals with impaired immune systems. AIDS patients suffer salmonellosis frequently (estimated 20-fold more than general population) and suffer from recurrent episodes.

This microorganism is usually transmitted to humans by ingestion of contaminated foods of animal origin, such as beef, poultry, milk, or eggs. The organism penetrates and passes from the gut lumen into the epithelium of small intestine where inflammation occurs. There is evidence that an enterotoxin may be produced, perhaps within the enterocyte. The onset time of the disease typically ranges from 6-48 hours. The acute symptoms of this disease include nausea, vomiting, abdominal cramps, diarrhea, fever, and headache. Chronic consequences can include arthritic symptoms which may follow 3-4 weeks after onset of acute symptoms. An infective dose can result from as few as 15-20 cells and the symptoms may last from 1 to 7 days or may be prolonged depending upon age, health of host, ingested dose, and the degree of pathogenicity (virulence) among the members of the genus.

The prevalence of the pathogen Salmonella in beef, lamb, pork, and poultry carcasses varies greatly. The overall contamination of meat and poultry carcasses with these pathogens depends not only on the numbers of the pathogens on the hair, hide, feathers, skin, and in the intestinal tract of the animals, but is also significantly affected by the degree of cross-contamination occurring from these sources during slaughter and processing. The establishments that slaughters and/or process meat and poultry products must adhere to pathogen reduction performance standards for Salmonella, as specified in 9 CFR 310.25 for livestock and in 9 CFR 381.94 for poultry.

Data on Salmonella isolates obtained from non-human sources (animals, feed, and environment) can help identify possible sources of human illness. The four most common serotypes of Salmonella isolated in livestock and poultry in 2003 and 2004 are S. Enteritidis (Serogroup D), S. Typhimurium (Serogroup C2), S. Newport (Serogroup B), and S. Heidelberg (Serogroup C2) which accounted for approximately 50% of the isolates reported to CDC. Salmonella Typhimurium, the most common serotype in humans, is identified from clinical samples (results from clinical of animal disease) from bovine and porcine sources, and from non-clinical samples (results from animal surveillance and food products) from chicken sources. Outbreaks of S. Typhimurium infections have been associated with the consumption of ground beef. A large portion of the isolates recovered from humans were resistant to multiple antimicrobial drugs including those with a five-drug resistant pattern characteristic of the S. Typhimurium phage type DT104. Salmonella Enteritidis, the second most common serotype in humans, are identified from clinical and non-clinical chicken sources. While the number of human infections caused by the previous top two serotypes had substantial decreases from 1994-2004, Salmonella Newport has emerged as a major multidrug-resistant pathogen (resistant to at least nine of 17 antimicrobial agents tested), becoming the third most common serotype in the United States. This serotype has been identified from clinical bovine sources. Between 2002 and 2004 CDC reported four outbreaks of antimicrobial resistant Salmonella infection that implicated FSIS regulated products, including three attributed to ground beef. Two of the three ground beef associated most common serotype in humans in 2003 and the fifth most common in 2004; is identified from clinical chicken, and porcine sources as well as non-clinical chicken and turkey sources.

Various Salmonella serotypes have long been isolated from the outside of egg shells. The present situation with S. Enteritidis is complicated by the presence of the organism inside the egg, in the yolk. This and other information strongly suggest vertical transmission, i.e., deposition of the organism in the yolk by an infected layer hen prior to shell deposition. Foods other than eggs have also caused outbreaks due to S. Enteritidis. Also, Salmonella has been isolated from milk and dairy products, fish, shrimp, frog legs, yeast, coconut, sauces and salad dressing, cake mixes, cream-filled desserts and toppings, dried gelatin, peanut butter, cocoa and chocolate, etc. Environmental sources of the organism include water, soil, insects, factory surfaces, kitchen surfaces, and animal feces, to name only a few.


Escherichia coli O157:H7
A minority of E. coli serotypes are capable of causing human illness (colibacillosis) by different mechanisms. Naturally E. coli is a normal inhabitant of the intestine of all animals, including humans; serves a useful function in the body by suppressing the growth of harmful bacterial species and by synthesizing appreciable amounts of vitamins. Based on disease syndromes and other characteristics, there are six classes of diarrheagenic E. coli recognized: enteroaggregative (EAggEC), enteroinvasive (EIEC), enteropathogenic (EPEC), enterotoxigenic (ETEC), enterohemorrhagic (EHEC), and diffusely adherent (DAEC). EHEC is the class that is of concern to industry, FSIS, and public health; the more significant serotype is E. coli O157:H7. Escherichia coli serotype O157:H7 is one of the rare serotype of this genus and, as mentioned above, belongs to the EHEC family that causes severe disease. This pathogen is a rod-shaped, generally motile, non-spore forming and Gram-negative. It generally grows at 2.5-45˚C, pH between 4.6-9.5, with or without air, and aw of >0.935. There are strains of E. coli O157:H7 that possess an unusual tolerance to environmental stress such as temperature, pH, dryness, and can survive in water.

This pathogen produces several virulence factors that cause severe damage to the lining of the intestine, acute renal failure (children and elderly), hemolysis, thrombocytopenia, and neurological problems (the last three occur mainly in adults). All EHEC, including E. coli O157:H7, produce Shiga toxins (Stx 1 and 2; also known as Vero toxins and Shiga-like toxins) which are closely related to or identical to the toxin produced by Shigella dysenteriae type 1; these toxins targets the human kidney, particularly the cortical region which is rich in Gb3 receptors for the toxin. These toxins are encoded on a bacteriophage that was transferred from Shigella to E. coli O55:H7 (parent strain of serotype O157:H7). Other virulence factors are the pO157 plasmid (90-kb size) which encodes the EHEC hemolysins and serine proteases; LEE pathogenic island which enclose the genes accountable for the A/E histopathology including a type III secretion system responsible for the epithelial cell signal transduction events leading to the
attaching/effacing (A/E) lesion, and a bacterial adhesion proteins called intimin and Tir (Translocated intimin receptor); as well as other virulence factors. Data collected by CDC through the National Notifiable Diseases Surveillance System (NNDSS) in collaboration with the Council of State and Territorial Epidemiologists (CSTE) have shown that during 1996-2004, the estimated cases of infections with E. coli O157:H7 had a substantial decline (2005, MMWR 54(14):352-356). During 2004 through 2005 (cumulative, year-to-date) a total of 2544 and 2461 cases of EHEC O157:H7, respectively, have been reported from 50 states, District of Colombia, and Puerto Rico. In 2003, the majority of the EHEC cases reported were during the months of August-November. Interestingly, the non-O157 EHEC are on the rise with a total of 252, 315, and 352 reported cases corresponding to the respective aforementioned time period. This data may be underrepresented due to the limitations of the protocols (can vary and are not implemented uniformly) for the isolation of non-O157 enteric pathogens in clinical laboratories. The O-antigen that has been identified to a large number of the non-O157:H7 isolates include O111, O103, and O26.

This microorganism causes three distinctive clinical manifestation including hemorrhagic colitis (HC), hemolytic uremic syndrome (HUS), and thrombotic thrombocytopenic purpura (TTP). All people are believed to be susceptible to hemorrhagic colitis, but young children and the elderly appear to progress to more serious symptoms more frequently (HUS and TTP, respectively). HC is characterized by severe cramping (abdominal pain) and diarrhea which is initially watery but becomes grossly bloody. Occasionally vomiting occurs and some individuals can exhibit watery diarrhea only. Fever is either low-grade or absent. The infectious dose is as few as 10 bacterial cells with an incubation period of approximately 4 days (median) and clinical manifestations can develop within 24-48 hours with duration of 8 days (average). A week after the onset of gastrointestinal symptoms with this pathogen some victims (particularly the very young under the age of 10) have developed HUS, characterized by renal failure and hemolytic anemia. Permanent loss of kidney function may result and the mortality rate in children is 3-5%. In the adults and elderly, a complication associated with this microorganism is TTP characterized by central nervous system deterioration, seizures, and strokes. This illness can have a mortality rate in the elderly as high as 50%.

Escherichia coli O157:H7 is a bacterial pathogen that has a reservoir mainly in cattle; other reservoirs have been identified including pigs, sheep, flies, deer and other wild animals. In recent scientific studies, it has been shown that feedlot steers and heifers appear to carry the organism at higher levels than once thought, even higher than dairy cattle and calves. Also, it has been shown that E. coli O157:H7 is seasonal (April through September) peaking during summer.
Undercooked or raw hamburger (ground beef) has been implicated in many of the documented outbreaks. Because of its public health significance, the vast scientific evidence showing the high incidence in cattle, the severity of the illness, and outbreaks due to this pathogen, these events prompted FSIS (1994) to declare E. coli O157:H7 as an adulterant in meat (beef) products. By the year 2002, the Agency required all
establishments producing raw beef to reassess their HACCP plans to determine if E. coli O157:H7 is a food safety hazard reasonably likely to occur in their production process (Fed Reg. Vol.67, No.194:62325-62334, October 7, 2002/Rules and Regulations). Recently, FSIS published a notice (Fed Reg. Vol. 70, No. 101:30331-30334, May 26, 2005/Rules and Regulations) informing the establishments that produce mechanically tenderized beef products, including those that are injected with marinade, to reassess their HACCP plan by the year 2006. This reassessment was triggered by the fact that there have been three E. coli O157:H7 outbreaks associated with consumption of mechanically tenderized beef. Additionally, E. coli O157:H7 outbreaks have also been implicated with alfalfa sprouts, unpasteurized fruit juices, dry-cured salami, lettuce, game meat, cheese curds, among others. Other vehicles of infection with E. coli O157:H7 include person-to person transmission (child day care facilities), water (recreational, well, and municipal water systems), animal contact (farms and petting zoos), and diagnostic laboratory related



Emerging Foodborne Pathogens of Concern from the Food Industry
Perspective

Campylobacter jejuni
Campylobacter jejuni is a Gram-negative slender, curved, and motile rod. It is a microaerophilic organism, which means it has a requirement for reduced levels of oxygen and requires 3 to 5% oxygen and 2 to 10% carbon dioxide for optimal growth. It is relatively fragile, and sensitive to environmental stresses such as 21% oxygen, drying, heating, disinfectants, and acidic conditions. This microorganism can grow at temperatures between 25-42˚C, pH range of 5.5-8, and aw >0.95. This bacterium is now recognized as an important pathogen. The pathogenic mechanisms of C. jejuni are still not completely understood, but it may be invasive and produce a heat-labile toxin that may cause diarrhea. The isolation of this pathogen requires special antibiotic-containing media and a special microaerophilic atmosphere (5% oxygen).

Campylobacteriosis is the name of the illness caused by the pathogen C. jejuni and it is also often known as campylobacter enteritis or gastroenteritis. It is one of the most common bacterial causes of diarrheal illness (even more than Shigella spp and Salmonella spp combined) in the United States. Active surveillance through FoodNet indicates about 15 cases per 100,000 persons are diagnosed each year. Many more cases go undiagnosed or unreported, and it is estimated that this illness affect over 1 million persons every year and it is estimated that approximately 100 persons with Campylobacter infections may die. Campylobacteriosis occurs more frequent in the summer months than in the winter. Although anyone can become ill with campylobacteriosis, children under 5 years and young adults (15-29) are more frequently afflicted than other age groups. Campylobacter jejuni infection causes diarrhea, which may be watery or sticky and can contain blood (usually occult) and fecal leukocytes. Other symptoms often present are fever, nausea, cramping, abdominal pain, headache, and muscle pain within 2-5 days after exposure to the organism. A very small number of the pathogen (fewer than 500) can cause illness in humans. The illness generally lasts 7-10 days and individuals with compromised immune systems the pathogen occasionally spreads to the bloodstream and causes a serious life-threatening infection.

Since C. jejuni is an invasive organism long-term effects of this illness can lead to Guillain-Barré syndrome, a rare disease that affects the nerves of the body beginning several weeks after the diarrheal illness. This disease occurs when a person’s immune system is triggered to attack the body’s own nerves, and can lead to paralysis that last several weeks and usually require intensive care. It is estimated that approximately one in every 1000 reported Campylobacteriosis cases leads to Guillain-Barré syndrome (40% of the syndrome cases).

Many chicken flocks are silently infected with Campylobacter, i.e., the chickens are infected with the organism but show no sign of infection and can be easily spread from bird to bird through a common water source or contact with infected feces. When infected chickens are slaughtered, the organism can be transferred from the intestines to the meat. More than half of the raw chicken in the United States market has Campylobacter on it. Campylobacter is also present in the giblets, especially the liver. Raw milk, raw beef and pork are also sources of infection. The bacteria are often carried by healthy cattle, birds, and by flies on farms. Non-chlorinated water may also be a source of infections.

In 1982, CDC began a national surveillance program and a more detailed active surveillance was instituted in 1996; this will provide more information on how often the disease occurs and what risk factors are for getting it. The U.S. Department of Agriculture is conducting research on how to prevent the infection in chickens. Moreover, during the year 2006 FSIS will be conducting a nationwide young chicken microbiological baseline data collection program to acquire information concerning the prevalence and quantitative levels of selected foodborne pathogens including Campylobacter.

[truedelphi]

54. My elderly father lived with my sister who fed her dog

Frozen only slightly thawed turkey legs

The poor guy was often sick with diarrhea. And as much as I complained, my sister only laughed. After all, her vet told her of this diet. (turkey leg often deposited here and there on the counter top, family members handling the leg and not washing their hands. The whole situation was Yucky.)

[kestrel91316]

58. Articles from JAVMA about zoonotic risks from foodborne diseases

in animals:

E. coli O157:H7:
http://avma.org/reference/zoonosis/znescherichiacoli.asp

Salmonella:
http://avma.org/reference/zoonosis/znsalmonellosis.asp

Campylobacter:
http://avma.org/reference/zoonosis/zncampylobacteriosis.asp

Toxoplasmosis:
http://avma.org/reference/zoonosis/zntoxopl.asp

Please note the EXTENSIVE list of references at the end of each article.
I don't want to see Pottenger's shoddy work from the 1930s mentioned again on this thread. It's the 21st century.

Remember, Lamarck got published, too.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

61. My Vet is against raw diets also

We discussed different food types and what's best last week when I took one of my kitties in for a check. I was one of the many worried-for-no-real reason people he'd seen last week.

He said raw raises more health risks than if one were to continue to use the current marketed feeds. I told him I was thinking of cooking my own and showed him some of the recipes I had. He said that they were OK, but not perfect and to be careful as a cats urinary PH gets out of whack easily. He sent me home with a bottle of spray vitamins to add to their diet if I choose that route. Currently they're all getting an organic I bought at the local feed store. It claims to be all natural and at the moment I think it's the best option for them.

[havocmom]

62. So is my USDA working husband

Cook it and DO NOT eat the liver is his golden rule.

I have no problem cooking up meats and grains for our dog. Adding other good things to give him a balanced diet is no problem.

Am hoping the Raw Meat advocates suddenly appearing are not just too damned lazy to cook something for a pet they say they love.

And to the raw meat advocates who pose the argument that animals in the wild eat raw meats, we need to remember those animals generally have a MUCH shorter life span than the ones we help care for as our companions.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

64. I don't understand why people don't simply consult their vets first

Let's face it, they're the ones who know animal nutrition best. I know that before I went vegetarian I consulted my doctor. It seems the same should apply with a radical change in diet for your pet.

[kestrel91316]

84. No, you can't do THAT. All vets are just stupid, uneducated,

robotic shills for Hill's!!!!!!!!!!1111!!!!11!!1!

Veterinary school consisted of four years of getting our brains siphoned out of our heads, and indoctrinating us to unquestioningly parrot certain corporations. And in the 26 years since I graduated, I have been VERY CAREFUL to make a point of not learning anything new, not going to ANY continuing conferences, and not paying any attention to my clinical experiences.

:rofl:

[TZ]

94. lets make it easier on everyone,

and just call you Kestrel the Hill-Shill! Has a nicer ring than "merkie" don't ya think!:rofl:

[kestrel91316]

101. Hey, works for me!

[kestrel91316]

123. Er, that would be "continuing EDUCATION conferences", lol.

[KT2000]

65. Thank you for the info n/t

[AZBlue]

68. Thank you so much - for this post and the innumerable others that you've shared!

You've been such a help to so many of us - THANK YOU!

[OneGrassRoot]

74. I second that! n/t

[TZ]

69. great post

now where in the world did you get your ideas for this post in this forum? Hmmmm? LOL. Thanks. This fleshes the arguments out wonderfully.:hi:

[porphyrian]

70. Couldn't you microwave it for half a minute or so and kill the bacteria?

Then, you only have to contend with antibiotics and growth hormones and such, right?

[TZ]

71. microwaving doesn't kill that much..

You notice you don't microwave raw meat or poultry for human consumption. In order to really kill bacteria, heating/cooking at high temperature is the best method and microwaves don't really "heat" things as much as remove moisture.

[yellowcanine]

97. Oh geez no. Half a minute? It is not the time that matters - it is the temperature

reached. Red meat needs to be cooked to 160 degrees F evenly throughout to kill the bacteria, poultry 180 degrees. Microwave ovens are notorious for leaving cold spots. A rotating microwave will help but not eliminate cold spots. In general, the only way to safely cook meats in the microwave is on lower power for longer periods of time using a thermometer to confirm temperatures.

[kestrel91316]

102. THANK YOU.

[Gelliebeans]

72. Thanks

We (me and the critters) look forward to your updates and the information you continue to bring us.

[kestrel91316]

77. Subthread on pathogenicity of Salmonella in dogs and cats

For informational purposes. This should not be necessary, but there ARE those who dispute Koch's postulate with respect to foodborne pathogens in pets...............sigh.

There is some duplication in the two articles.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
***Feline Salmonellosis*****

Salmonellosis (Zoonotic)
Last updated on 10/29/2003.
Contributors:
Rhea V. Morgan DVM, DACVIM, DACVO

Synonyms:
Song bird fever

Disease description:
Salmonella are nonspore-forming, gram-negative bacilli. They are motile members of the Enterobacteriaceae family. Salmonella infect primarily the gastrointestinal tract, and may affect a wide variety of animals and birds. All serovars are believed to belong to one species, S. enterica. Serovar names usually follow the Salmonella genus name, with “enterica” being deleted. Serovars are identified based on their somatic and flagellar antigens. Common serovars that cause disease in domestic animals include S. typhimurium, S. enteritidis, S. chloeraesiu, and S. arizonae. S. enteridis is further subdivided into more than a thousand bioserotypes, such as S. enteridis dublin. It is common practice to also delete the “enteridis” portion of the name, thereby relying upon the bioserotype portion to identify the bacteria, e.g. S. dublin. 1 The organism most commonly isolated from dogs and cats is S. typhimurium. 2

Salmonella often enter the intestinal tract by the ingestion of contaminated food or water. Food, water, food stuffs, chew toys, etc. may be contaminated by the infected fecal material of insects, rodents, birds, or animals. 8 The bacteria may also be acquired from soiled utensils (fomites). Infections in animals are sometimes acquired from in-contact people. 1 In-utero infections may be transmitted to the offspring, resulting in abortion, stillbirths, or ill neonates. 1 The bacteria can survive in the environment for relatively long periods of time.

Most enteric organisms are not able to colonize the gastrointestinal tract (GI) unless there is disruption of the normal protective mechanisms of the intestinal tract, or alteration in the normal bacterial GI flora. Surviving organisms invade the ileum and may spread to lymph nodes, liver, and spleen via the lymphatics and blood vessels. Gastrointestinal signs are caused by invasion of the ileal epithelium and the subsequent inflammatory response. Diarrhea is secretory owing to increased production of adenyl cyclase. Bacteremia or endotoxemia may induce fever, endotoxic shock, and death. Shedding of bacteria may last for 3-6 weeks and may be intermittent. 1

Factors that increase the likelihood of clinical disease from Salmonellosis include ingestion of large numbers of bacteria, age of the animal, poor nutrition, presence of neoplasia and other concurrent diseases, stress, and the administration of antibiotics, chemotherapy, or glucocorticoids. 1

DIAGNOSTICS
Hemogram results are variable. Anemia (nonregenerative), lymphopenia, thrombocytopenia, and neutropenia with a left shift may be noted. Leukocytosis may occur with chronic infections. Serum chemistry results are often normal, unless clinical signs are severe. Then hypoalbuminemia, hypoglycemia, hyponatremia, hypokalemia or hyperkalemia, and elevated renal function tests may be found.
Culture results from the gastrointestinal tract can be difficult to interpret, since many healthy animals may harbor the organism. 4,5,13 Isolation of the organism from other sites in the body is more significant. Negative cultures do not rule out the disease. 1
A fecal PCR assay can detect Salmonella in fecal samples, but is not widely available. 6 Serologic assays are difficult to interpret, are rarely diagnostic, and not often used. 1

Disease description in this species:
Salmonella organisms are isolated from 0.8% to 18% of healthy cats. 1,4,5 Cats appear to be more resistant to infection than dogs. 1 Gastroenteritis with anorexia, vomiting, diarrhea, and salivation is the most common clinical manifestation in cats. Bacteremia, endotoxemia, pneumonia, and infection of other organs may result in more severe, life-threatening signs. 1,3,11 Some cats develop a persistent fever, with weight loss, lethargy, and anemia as complicating signs. 16 Abortion, still births and ill neonates may occur with in utero infections. 1,10

An interesting source of S. typhimurium infection in cats is the ingestion of infected wild songbirds. Cats become ill 2-5 days after eating infected birds and exhibit anorexia, depression, fever, vomiting and diarrhea of 2-7 days duration. This form of salmonellosis has been documented both in Sweden and the Northeastern United States, and has been called “Songbird Fever”. 1,7,8 Although most cats recover within a few days, some cats are ill for up to 3 weeks. 1,7 Approximately 10% of affected cats may die from the disease. 1

Etiology:
Salmonella spp.


Clinical findings:
Abdominal pain
Abortion
AFEBRILE
ANOREXIA
ASCITES
Bradycardia
Cachexia
Collapse
COUGHING
Dehydration
Depression
DIARRHEA
Diarrhea hemorrhagic
Diarrhea mucoid
Diarrhea watery
DYSPNEA
Epistaxis
Exercise intolerant or reluctant to move
FEVER
Hematochezia
Hypothermia
Icterus
Malaise
Mental dullness
Pale mucous membranes
TACHYCARDIA
Tachypnea
Tenesmus
VOMITING
WEAKNESS
Weight loss
Zoonosis, Zoonoses
ZZZ INDEX ZZZ


Diagnostic procedures: Diagnostic results:
Ocular examination ANEMIA - variable
Anemia nonregenerative, nonresponding
Leukocytosis
Leukopenia

Serum chemistry Hypoalbuminemia
Hypoproteinemia

Radiography of the thorax Pulmonary infiltrate, pneumonia

Culture of feces, water, urine, blood, trachea Salmonella isolated and identified

Stained fecal smears Leukocytes in feces


Treatment/Management/Prevention:
SPECIFIC
1) Unless the animal is systemically ill, antibiotics are withheld because they may produce a carrier state. Amoxicillin, trimethoprim-sulfa or chloramphenicol have been successfully used in the past, but multiple-drug resistant strains are emerging. 12,14,16 Other antibiotics to consider, especially if sepsis is present, include enrofloxacin, imipenem, and the aminoglycosides:


Enrofloxacin (Baytril): 2.5 mg/kg PO q12h
Amoxicillin: 20 mg/kg PO q12h
Chloramphenicol (Chloromycetin): 25 mg/kg PO, IV q12h. This drug is contraindicated if neutropenia, anemia, or pancytopenia are present.
Gentamicin (Gentocin): 5 mg/kg IV, IM, SC q24h
Trimethoprim/sulfadiazine: 15 mg/kg PO, SC q12h
SUPPORTIVE
1) Nothing should be given by mouth if vomiting or severe diarrhea are present.

2) Fluid therapy is important and indicated for most animals with gastrointestinal signs:

Dehydration should be estimated and deficiency replaced with lactated Ringer's solution (LRS) and dextrose 5% (D5W) or similar solutions. Three quarters of the loss should be replaced immediately and the remainder in 24 hours.
Daily maintenance fluid, similar to the above, should also be administered.
If hypokalemia is present, potassium is added to the above fluids at the rate of 20 mEq/L. The rate of administration of K+ should be no more than 0.5 mEq/kg/h.
3) Protein supplements in the form of amino acids 5% (20 ml/kg/day) or plasma may be needed if the pet has prolonged gastrointestinal signs.

4) The use of anticholinergic drugs (atropine and derivatives) are not recommended because they tend to promote bacterial overgrowth and are of little value in combating diarrhea induced by salmonellosis.

Preventive Measures:
Salmonella are susceptible to many disinfectants, such as the phenolic compounds, and diluted bleach, as well as household detergents. The bacteria can also be killed by most sterilizing techniques. Infection from food stuffs can be decreased by feeding only fully cooked foods and food stored at proper temperatures. 1 Infected animals should be isolated and all areas/equipment cleaned that came into contact with them. Complete eradication within a given animal population is difficult, because some animals may be asymptomatic carriers and shedders of the bacteria. 1,4,5,12,14 Animals recovering from clinical infections may also shed the bacteria for 6 or more weeks. 1 Research to investigate the development of a vaccine for salmonellosis in dogs is underway, but no such work has been published in the cat. 9

Special considerations:
Salmonellosis is a both a zoonotic and reverse-zoonotic disease. 1,2,8,17 Care must be taken by all people who are potentially exposed to the feces, vomitus and other body fluids of infected animals. Animal handlers must also be careful to wash their hands after handling animal bedding, food dishes, and any other materials that may be contaminated with fecal material.

Differential Diagnosis:
Helicobacteriosis
Campylobacteriosis
Giardiasis
Coccidiosis
Cryptosporidiosis
Feline immunodeficiency virus infection
Parvovirus (panleukopenia)
Feline leukemia virus infection


References:
1) Greene CE: Salmonellosis. Infectious Diseases of the Dog and Cat, 2nd ed. WB Saunders 1998 pp. 235-240.
2) Greene CE: Bacterial diseases. Textbook of Veterinary Internal Medicine, 5th ed. WB Saunders 2000 pp. 390-400.
3) Foley JE, Orgad U, Hirsh DW, et al: Outbreak of fatal salmonellosis in cats following use of a high-titer modified-live panleukopenia virus vaccine. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1999 Vol 214 pp. 67-70.
4) Spain CV, Scarlett JM, Wade SE, McDonough P: Prevalence of enteric zoonotic agents in cats less than 1 year old in central New York State. J Vet Intern Med 2001 Vol 15 pp. 33-38.
5) Hill SL, Cheney JM, Taton-Allen GE, et al: Prevalence of enteric zoonotic organisms in cats. J Am Vet Med Assoc 2000 Vol 216 pp. 687-692.
6) Kurowski PB, Traub-Dargatz JL, Morley PS, Gentry-Weeks CR: Detection of Salmonella spp. in fecal specimens by use of real-time polymerase chain reaction assay. Am J Vet Res 2002 Vol 63 pp. 1265-1268.
7) Practice Bulletin Cornell University: Songbird fever. Companion Anim Pract 1988 Vol 2 pp. 31-32.
8) Tauni MA, Osterlund A: Outbreak of Salmonella typhimurium in cats and humans associated with infection in wild birds. J Small Anim Pract 2000 Vol 41 pp. 339-341.
9) McVey DS, Chengappa MM, Mosier DE, et al: Immunogenicity of chi4127 phoP-Salmonella enterica serovar typhimurium in dogs. Vaccine 2002 Vol 20 pp. 1618-1623.
10) Reilly Ga, Bailie NC, Morrow Wt, et al: Feline stillbirths associated with mixed Salmonella typhimurium and leptospira infection. Vet Rec 1994 Vol 135<25> pp. 608.
11) Rodriguez CO Jr, Moon ML, Leib MS: Salmonella choleraesuis pneumonia in a cat without signs of gastrointestinal tract disease. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1993 Vol 202 pp. 953-955.
12) Low JC, Tennant B, Munro D: Multiple-resistant Salmonella typhimurium DT104 in cats. Lancet 1991 Vol 348 pp. 1391.
13) Weber A, Wachowitz R, Weigl U, Schafer-Schmidt R: Occurrence of Salmonella in fecal samples of dogs and cats in northern Bavaria from 1975-1994. Berl Munch Tierarztl Wochenschr 1995 Vol 108 pp. 401-404.
14) Wall PG, Davis S, Threlfall EJ, et al: Chronic carriage of multidrug resistant Salmonella typhimurium in a cat. J Small Anim Pract 1995 Vol 36 pp. 279-281.
15) McDonough PL, Simpson KW: Diagnosing emerging bacterial infections: salmonellosis, campylobacteriosis, clostridial toxicosis, and helicobacteriosis. Semin Vet Med Surg Small Anim 1996 Vol 11 pp. 187-197.
16) Dow SW, Jones RL, Henik RA, et al: Clinical features of salmonellosis in cats: six cases (1981-1986). J Am Vet Med Assoc 1989 Vol 194<10> pp. 1464-1466.
17) Pelzer KD: Salmonellosis. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1989 Vol 195 pp. 456-463

Source: VIN
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*****Canine Salmonellosis*******


Salmonellosis (Zoonotic)
Last updated on 10/18/2003.
Contributors:
Rhea V. Morgan DVM, DACVIM, DACVO

Disease description:
Salmonella are nonspore-forming, gram-negative bacilli. They are motile members of the Enterobacteriaceae family. Salmonella infect primarily the gastrointestinal tract, and may affect a wide variety of animals and birds. All serovars are believed to belong to one species, S. enterica. Serovar names usually follow the Salmonella genus name, with “enterica” being deleted. Serovars are identified based on their somatic and flagellar antigens. Common serovars that cause disease in domestic animals include S. typhimurium, S. enteritidis, S. chloeraesiu, and S. arizonae. S. enteridis is further subdivided into more than a thousand bioserotypes, such as S. enteridis dublin. It is common practice to also delete the “enteridis” portion of the name, thereby relying upon the bioserotype portion to identify the bacteria, e.g. S. dublin. 1 The organism most commonly isolated from dogs and cats is S. typhimurium. 2

Salmonella often enter the intestinal tract by the ingestion of contaminated food or water. Food, water, food stuffs, chew toys, etc. may be contaminated by the infected fecal material of insects, rodents, birds, or animals. 8 The bacteria may also be acquired from soiled utensils (fomites). Infections in animals are sometimes acquired from in-contact people. 1 In-utero infections may be transmitted to the offspring, resulting in abortion, stillbirths, or ill neonates. 1 The bacteria can survive in the environment for relatively long periods of time.

Most enteric organisms are not able to colonize the gastrointestinal tract (GI) unless there is disruption of the normal protective mechanisms of the intestinal tract, or alteration in the normal bacterial GI flora. Surviving organisms invade the ileum and may spread to lymph nodes, liver, and spleen via the lymphatics and blood vessels. Gastrointestinal signs are caused by invasion of the ileal epithelium and the subsequent inflammatory response. Diarrhea is secretory owing to increased production of adenyl cyclase. Bacteremia or endotoxemia may induce fever, endotoxic shock, and death. Shedding of bacteria may last for 3-6 weeks and may be intermittent. 1

Factors that increase the likelihood of clinical disease from Salmonellosis include ingestion of large numbers of bacteria, age of the animal, poor nutrition, presence of neoplasia and other concurrent diseases, stress, and the administration of antibiotics, chemotherapy, or glucocorticoids. 1

DIAGNOSTICS
Hemogram results are variable. Anemia (nonregenerative), lymphopenia, thrombocytopenia, and neutropenia with a left shift may be noted. Leukocytosis may occur with chronic infections. Serum chemistry results are often normal, unless clinical signs are severe. Then hypoalbuminemia, hypoglycemia, hyponatremia, hypokalemia or hyperkalemia, and elevated renal function tests may be found.
Culture results from the gastrointestinal tract can be difficult to interpret, since many healthy animals may harbor the organism. 4,11-14 Isolation of the organism from other sites in the body is more significant. Negative cultures do not rule out the disease. 1
A fecal PCR assay can detect Salmonella in fecal samples, but is not widely available. 5 Serologic assays are difficult to interpret, are rarely diagnostic, and not often used. 1

Disease description in this species:
Salmonella are commonly isolated from both healthy and hospitalized dogs. 1,2,11-13 Dogs appear to be more susceptible to infection than cats. 1 Gastroenteritis is the most common clinical manifestation in dogs, although bacteremia, endotoxemia, and pulmonary embolization may result in more severe, life-threatening signs. Less that 10% of infected animals die acutely. 1 Abortion, still births and ill puppies may occur with in utero infections. 1, 10

Etiology:
Salmonella spp.


Age predilection:
Juvenile


Clinical findings:
Abdominal pain
ABORTION
AFEBRILE
ANOREXIA
Bradycardia
Cachexia
COUGHING
Dehydration
Depression
DIARRHEA
Diarrhea hemorrhagic
Diarrhea mucoid
DYSPNEA
Epistaxis
Exercise intolerant or reluctant to move
FEVER
Hematochezia
Hemorrhagic diathesis
Hyperpnea
Hyperventilation, tachypnea
Hypothermia
Icterus
Intestinal hemorrhage
Malaise
Nausea
Neonatal mortality
Onset sudden, acute
TACHYCARDIA
Tenesmus
VAGINAL DISCHARGE
VOMITING
WEAKNESS
Zoonosis, zoonoses
ZZZ INDEX ZZZ


Diagnostic procedures: Diagnostic results:
Ocular examination ANEMIA
Anemia nonregenerative, nonresponding
Leukopenia
Lymphopenia, lymphocytes decreased
Neutropenia, neutrophils decreased, left shift
Thrombocytopenia

Culture of feces, water, urine, blood, trachea Bacteria isolated and identified
Salmonella isolated and identified

Stained fecal smears Leukocytes in feces


Treatment/Management/Prevention:
SPECIFIC
1) Unless the animal is systemically ill, antibiotics are withheld because they may produce a carrier state. Amoxicillin, trimethoprim-sulfa or chloramphenicol are the preferred drugs to administer. Other to consider, especially if sepsis is present, include enrofloxacin, imipenem, and the aminoglycosides:


Enrofloxacin (Baytril): 2.5 mg/kg PO q12h
Orbifloxacin (Orbax): 2.5-7.5 mg/kg PO q24h
Chloramphenicol (Chloromycetin): 30 mg/kg PO, IV q8h
Gentamicin (Gentocin): 5 mg/kg IV, IM, SC q24h
Trimethoprim/sulfadiazine: 15 mg/kg PO, SC q12h
Sulfadimethoxine/ormetoprim (Primor): Initial dose 55 mg/kg (25 mg/lb) PO, then 27.5 mg/kg (12.5 mg/lb) q24h
SUPPORTIVE
1) Nothing should be given by mouth if vomiting or severe diarrhea are present.

2) Fluid therapy is important and indicated for most animals with gastrointestinal signs:

Dehydration should be estimated and deficiency replaced with lactated Ringer's solution (LRS) and dextrose 5% (D5W) or similar solutions. Three quarters of the loss should be replaced immediately and the remainder in 24 hours.
Daily maintenance fluid, similar to the above, 40-50 ml/kg/day should also be administered.
If hypokalemia is present, potassium is added to the above fluids at the rate of 30 mEq/L, unless additional potassium is already present in the fluids being used (Normosol-M in D5W). The rate of administration of K+ should be no more than 0.5 mEq/kg/h.
3) Protein supplements in the form of amino acids 5% (20 ml/kg/day) or plasma may be needed if the pet has prolonged gastrointestinal signs.

4) The use of anticholinergic drugs (atropine and derivatives) are not recommended because they tend to promote bacterial overgrowth and are of little value in combating diarrhea induced by salmonellosis.

Preventive Measures:
Salmonella are susceptible to many disinfectants, such as the phenolic compounds, and diluted bleach, as well as household detergents. The bacteria can also be killed by most sterilizing techniques. Infection from food stuffs can be decreased by feeding only fully cooked foods and food stored at proper temperatures. 6 Infected animals should be isolated and all areas/equipment cleaned that came into contact with them. Complete eradication within a given animal population is difficult, because some animals may be asymptomatic carriers and shedders of the bacteria.1, 11-13 Animals recovering from clinical infections may also shed the bacteria for 6 or more weeks. 1 Research to investigate the development of a vaccine for salmonellosis is underway. 7

Special considerations:
Salmonellosis is a both a zoonotic and reverse-zoonotic disease. 1,2,16,17 Care must be taken by all people who are potentially exposed to the feces, vomitus and other body fluids of infected animals. Animal handlers must also be careful to wash their hands after handling animal bedding, food dishes, and any other materials that may be contaminated with fecal material.

Here is link to "Salmonellosis" article from Iowa State University, Institute for International Cooperation in Animal Biologics.
Salmonellosis

Here is link to some VIN discussions on Salmonella diarrhea, Salmonella and BARF diet:
VIN discussions


Differential Diagnosis:
Helicobacteriosis
Campylobacteriosis
Giardiasis
Coccidiosis
Cryptosporidiosis
Coronavirus
Parvovirus


References:
1) Greene CE: Salmonellosis. Clinical Microbiology and Infectious Diseases of the Dog and Cat, 2nd ed. Philadelphia, WB Saunders 1998 pp. 235-240.
2) Greene CE: Bacterial diseases. Textbook of Veterinary Internal Medicine, 5th ed. Philadelphia, WB Saunders 2000 pp. 390-400.
3) Hackett T, Lappin MR: Prevalence of enteric pathogens in dogs of North-Central Colorado. J Am Anim Hosp Assoc 2003 Vol 39 pp. 52-56.
4) Fukata T, Naito F, Yoshida N, et al: Incidence of Salmonella infection in healthy dogs in Gifu prefecture, Japan. J Vet Med Sci 2002 Vol 64 pp. 1079-1080.
5) Kurowski PB, Traub-Dargatz JL, Morley PS, Gentry-Weeks CR: Detection of Salmonella spp. in fecal specimens by use of real-time polymerase chain reaction assay. Am J Vet Res 2002 Vol 63 pp. 1265-1268.
6) Joffe DJ, Schlesinger DP: Preliminary assessment of the risk of Salmonella infection in dogs fed raw chicken diets. Can Vet J 2002 Vol 43 pp. 441-442.
7) McVey DS, Chengappa MM, Mosier DE, et al: Immunogenicity of chi4127 phoP-Salmonella enterica serovar typhimurium in dogs. Vaccine 2002 Vol 20 pp. 1618-1623.
8) Willis C: Isolation of Salmonella species from imported dog chews. Vet Rec 2001 Vol 149 pp. 426-427.
9) Sato Y, Kuwamoto R: A case of canine salmonellosis due to Salmonella infantis. J Vet Med Sci 1999 Vol 61 pp. 71-72.
10) Caldow GL, Graham MM: Abortion in foxhounds and a ewe flock associated with Salmonella montevideo infection. Vet Rec 1998 Vol 142 pp. 138-139.
11) Cantor GH, Nelson S Jr, Vanek JA, et al: Salmonella shedding in racing dogs. J Vet Diagn Invest 1997 Vol 9 pp. 447-448.
12) Adesiyun AA, Campbell M, Kaminjolo JS: Prevalence of bacterial enteropathogens in pet dogs in Trinidad. Zentralbl Veterinarmed 1997 Vol 44 pp. 19-27.
13) Weber A, Wachowitz R, Weigl U, Schafer-Schmidt R: . Berl Munch Tierarztl Wochenschr 1995 Vol 108 (11) pp. 401-404.
14) Buogo C, Burmens AP, Perrin J, Nicolet J: Presence of Campylobacter spp., Clostridium difficile, C. perfirngens and salmonellae in litters of puppies and in adult dogs in a shelter. Schweiz Arch Tierheilkd 1995 Vol 137 (5) pp. 165-171.
15) McDonough PL, Simpson KW: Diagnosing emerging bacterial infections: salmonellosis, campylobacteriosis, clostridial toxicosis, and helicobacteriosis. Semin Vet Med Surg Small Anim 1996 Vol 11 pp. 187-197.
16) Sato Y, Mori T, Koyamam T, Nagase H: Salmonella virchow infection in an infant transmitted by household dogs. J Vet Med Sci 2000 Vol 62 pp. 767-769.
17) Pelzer KD: Salmonellosis. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1989 Vol 195 pp. 456-463.

Source: VIN

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[TZ]

78. Windows ME and dial-up?

Surely with all the money you have made pushing Science Diet on innocent cat owners as a vet would have allowed you to buy something much nicer than that! LOL!:rofl: :rofl:

[kestrel91316]

87. Hey, I would have got a new one by now but I'm moving one of these

days pretty soon and don't want to set up a new computer right before I do. I don't find it fun.

If I buy one now, it will just be completely obsolete and overpriced for its capabilities by the time I set it up in a couple months, lol. I already learned THAT lesson once.

[kestrel91316]

79. Subthread on pathogenicity of Campylobacter in dogs and cats:

Ditto.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*********Canine Campylobacteriosis*********

Campylobacteriosis (Zoonotic)
Last updated on 10/15/2003.
Contributors:
Rhea V. Morgan DVM, DACVIM, DACVO

Disease description:
Campylobacter are small (1.5-5 X 0.2-0.5 µm) curved, motile, gram-negative rods that often occur in pairs or in chains. The bacteria may taken on an “S” or almost spiral shape. They have a single flagellum, which is responsible for their motility. C. jejuni is the species most commonly associated with diarrhea in dogs and cats, although C. coli may occasionally be isolated. C. upsaliensis has been cultured from asymptomatic cats, and both healthy and diarrheic dogs. 1,5-7,12 Strains of C. upsaliensis appears to have a considerable degree of genomic heterogeneity, which can make serotyping challenging. 9 C. helveticus has also been isolated from asymptomatic cats. 9

Contaminated food (e.g. meat, poultry, mild products) and water are the main sources of infection, with the most common mode of transmission being the fecal-oral route. 1 The organism can survive in feces for long periods and fecal-contaminated surface water may be a persistent source of infection. 10 Incubation varies from 1-7 days and organisms that reach the jejunum, ileum, and colon colonize the mucosal surface. There they may produce enterotoxins and cytotoxins that result in watery, mucoid diarrhea. The disease usually lasts from 7-10 days.

A tentative diagnosis can be made by finding gram-negative bacteria with a "gull-wing" shape on a fecal smear stained with a Gram stain. Swabs of the rectum or colon or fresh fecal material may be submitted for culture. Material may be stored at room temperature or refrigerated for up to 3 days. Isolation of Campylobacter spp. requires special media (e.g. Campylobacter BAP, cefoperazone amphotericin teicoplanin medium) and a reduced oxygen environment because the bacteria is microaerophilic. 1,15 Different serotypes of Campylobacter may be identified by their thermostabile or thermolabile surface antigens, by PCR/restriction enzyme assays, or by fluorescent amplified fragment length polymorphism fingerprinting. 1,13,14 Serologic assays specifically for dogs and cats have not been developed or evaluated.

Disease description in this species:
Campylobacter spp. may be isolated from both healthy and symptomatic dogs, and dogs may be asymptomatic carriers of the bacteria. Clinical disease (i.e. diarrhea) and shedding of bacteria are more likely to occur in young dogs (< 6 mos. old) that are stressed by other illnesses (e.g. parvovirus, coronavirus, etc.), shipping, etc., or are housed in high density populations, such as in shelters, laboratories, or kennels. 1,3,4,10,11 A seasonal incidence may also be noted, with more cases arising in the summer or autumn. 4,8

Clinical signs vary widely from mild diarrhea to bloody, mucoid diarrhea with malaise. Diarrhea often lasts for < 7 days, but can be intermittent or become chronic. Campylobacter jejuni has also been found in two cases of bacteremia and cholecystitis in dogs. 2 Elevated bilirubin and liver enzymes are possible in cases of cholecystitis. Co-infection with Helicobacter and other enteric pathogens is also possible. 18

Etiology:
Campylobacter jejuni


Age predilection:
Juvenile


Clinical findings:
AFEBRILE
ANOREXIA
Cachexia
Depression
DIARRHEA
Diarrhea hemorrhagic
Diarrhea mucoid
Feces mucus covered
FEVER
Hematochezia
LYMPHADENOPATHY
Malaise
Melena
Nausea
TACHYCARDIA
Tenesmus
VOMITING
Zoonosis, zoonoses
ZZZ INDEX ZZZ


Diagnostic procedures: Diagnostic results:
Ocular examination Leukocytosis

Radiography of abdomen and thorax Intestinal, bowel loops thickened

Culture of tissues and feces Campylobacter isolated

Stained fecal smears Gram negative organisms isolated and identified
Leukocytes in feces

Exploratory of abdomen or necropsy Colonic lymphadenopathy
Fluid in intestinal lumen
Intestinal congestion


Images:


You may click on the image to view a larger version Campylobacter organisms


The Campylobacter organisms are the smaller gram negative curved or "seagull" shaped thin rods that are seen in-between the normal- sized gram positive bacteria.




Treatment/Management/Prevention:
SPECIFIC
1) Antibiotics are instituted once the diagnosis of Campylobacteriosis is confirmed to decrease the presence and shedding of the bacteria, but the actual efficacy of antibiotics for Campylobacteriosis is not well defined.

2) The choice of antibiotics may be based upon sensitivity testing or past experience with the bacteria. Options that have shown efficacy in the past include: 1,7,16,17

Erythromycin: 10-20 mg/kg PO q8-12h x 5-21 days
Cefoxitin: 15-20 mg/kg SC, IM, IV q8h x 5-7 days.
Chloramphenicol: 25 mg/kg PO q8h for 5-7 days.
Enrofloxacin: 5 mg/kg PO q12h x 5-7 days. This drug is contraindicated in young, growing animals.
3) Antibiotics that may also have efficacy against many strains of Campylobacter include gentamicin and clindamycin. 1

4) Campylobacteria are commonly resistant to streptomycin, penicillin, ampicillin, trimethoprim, vancomycin, and metronidazole. 1,7

SUPPORTIVE
1) Supportive care with subcutaneous or intravenous fluid therapy, electrolyte supplementation, and gastrointestinal protectants may also be warranted in individual cases.

Preventive Measures:
Strict sanitation and hygiene help prevent transmission. Campylobacter species are readily killed with drying or heating, but are viable in moist environments at room temperature for at least 3 days, and for up to one week when refrigerated. The bacteria are susceptible to many disinfectants, such as 1% sodium hypochlorite, 70% ethanol, iodine-based products, phenolic chemicals, and formaldehyde.

Special considerations:
C. jejuni, C. coli, and C. upsaliensisi cause gastroenteritis in people, and both dogs and cats are potential sources of infection. 1,8,10,12,19 Human infections may be acquired from ill pets, or from asymptomatic carriers. Another potential source of human infection is from the eating of raw or undercooked meat or poultry. All in-contact humans should be warned of the zoonotic potential of this disease.

Click here to see previous VIN discussions on this topic: Campylobacter infections

Differential Diagnosis:
Helicobacteriosis
Salmonellosis
Giardiasis
Coccidiosis
Cryptosporidiosis
Coronavirus
Parvovirus
Canine distemper


References:
1) Fox JG: Campylobacter infections. Infectious Diseases of the Dog and Cat, 2nd ed. WB Saunders 1998 pp. Fox JG: Campylobacter infections. I.
2) Oswald GP, Twedt DC, Steyn P: Campylobacter jejuni bacteremia and acute cholecystitis in two dogs. J Am Anim Hosp Assoc 1994 Vol 30 pp. 165-169.
3) Buogo C, Burnens AP, Perrin J, Nicolet J: Presence of Campylobacters spp., Clostridium difficile, C. Perfringens and salmonellae in litters of puppies and in adult dogs in a shelter. Schweiz Arch Tierheilkd 1995 Vol 137 pp. 165-171.
4) Torre E, Tello M: Factors influencing fecal shedding of Campylobacter jejuni in dogs without diarrhea. Am J Vet Res 1993 Vol 54 pp. 260-262.
5) Burnens AP, Nicolet J: Detection of Campylobacter upsaliensis in diarrheic dogs and cats, using a selective medium with cefoperazone. Am J Vet Res 1992 Vol 5 pp. 48-51.
6) Woldehiwet Z, Jones JJ, Tennant BJ, Jones DM: Serotypes of Campylobacter jejuni and C. coli isolated from dogs. J Small Anim Pract 1990 Vol 31 pp. 382-284.
7) Sandberg M, Bergsjo B, Hofshagen M, et al: Risk factors for Campylobacter infection in Norwegian cats and dogs. Prev Vet Med 2002 Vol 55 pp. 241-252.
8) Lopez CM, Giacoboni G, Agostini A, et al: Thermotolerant Campylobacters in domestic animals in a defined population in Buenos Aires, Argentina. Argentina. Prev Vet Med 2002 Vol 55 pp. 193-200.
9) Moser I, Reiksneuwohner B, Lentzsch P, et al: Genomic heterogeneity and O-antigen diversity of Campylobacter upsaliensis and Campylobacter helveticus strains isolated from dogs and cats in Germany. J Clin Microbiol 2001 Vol 39 pp. 2548-2557.
10) Baker J, Barton MD, Lanser J: Campylobacter species in cats and dogs in South Australia. Aust Vet 1999 Vol 77 pp. 662-666.
11) Brown C, Martin V, Chitwood S: An outbreak of enterocolitis due to Campylobacter spp. in a beagle colony. J Vet Diagn Invest 1999 Vol 11 pp. 374-376.
12) Hald B, Madsen M: Healthy puppies and kittens as carriers of Campylobacter spp., with special reference to Campylobacter upsaliensis. J Clin Microbiol 1997 Vol 35 pp. 3351-3352.
13) Engvall EO, Brandstrom B, Gunnarsson A, et al: Validation of a polymerase chain reaction/restriction enzyme analysis method for species identification of thermophilic Campylobacters isolated from domestic and wild animals. J Appl Microbiol 2002 Vol 92 pp. 47-54.
14) Duim B, Vandamme PA, Rigter A, et al: Differentiation of Campylobacter species by AFLP fingerprinting. Microbiology 2001 Vol 147 pp. 2729-2737.
15) Byrne C, Doherty D, Mooney A, et al: Basis of the superiority of cefoperazone amphotericin teicoplanin for isolating Campylobacter upsaliensis from stools. J Clin Microbiology 2001 Vol 39 pp. 2713-2716.
16) Monfort JD, Donahoe JP, Stills HF Jr, Bech-Neilsen S: Efficacies of erythromycin and chloramphenicol in extinguishing fecal shedding of Campylobacter jejuni in dogs. J Am Vet Med Asso 1990 Vol 196 pp. 1069-1072.
17) Jergens AE: Rational use of antimicrobials for gastrointestinal disease in small animals. J Am Anim Hosp Assoc 1994 Vol 30 pp. 123-131.
18) Misawa N, Kawashima K, Kondo F, et al: Isolation and characterization of Campylobacter, Helicobacter, and Anaerobiospirillum strains from a puppy with bloody diarrhea. Vet Microbiol 2002 Vol 87 pp. 353-364.
19) Hackett T, Lappin MRM: Prevalence of enteric pathogens in dogs of North-Central Colorado. J Am Anim Hosp Assoc 2003 Vol 39 pp. 52-56.

Source: VIN

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Feline Campylobacteriosis

Campylobacteriosis (Zoonotic)
Last updated on 10/27/2003.
Contributors:
Rhea V. Morgan DVM, DACVIM, DACVO

Disease description:
Campylobacter are small (1.5-5 X 0.2-0.5 µm) curved, motile, gram-negative rods that often occur in pairs or in chains. The bacteria may taken on an “S” or almost spiral shape. They have a single flagellum, which is responsible for their motility. C. jejuni is the species most commonly associated with diarrhea in dogs and cats, although C. coli may occasionally be isolated. C. upsaliensis has been cultured from asymptomatic cats, and both healthy and diarrheic dogs. 1,5-7,12 Strains of C. upsaliensis appears to have a considerable degree of genomic heterogeneity, which can make serotyping challenging. 9 C. helveticus has also been isolated from asymptomatic cats. 9

Contaminated food (e.g. meat, poultry, mild products) and water are the main sources of infection, with the most common mode of transmission being the fecal-oral route. 1 The organism can survive in feces for long periods and fecal-contaminated surface water may be a persistent source of infection. 10 Incubation varies from 1-7 days and organisms that reach the jejunum, ileum, and colon colonize the mucosal surface. There they may produce enterotoxins and cytotoxins that result in watery, mucoid diarrhea. The disease usually lasts from 7-10 days.

A tentative diagnosis can be made by finding gram-negative bacteria with a "gull-wing" shape on a fecal smear stained with a Gram stain. Swabs of the rectum or colon or fresh fecal material may be submitted for culture. Material may be stored at room temperature or refrigerated for up to 3 days. Isolation of Campylobacter spp. requires special media (e.g. Campylobacter BAP, cefoperazone amphotericin teicoplanin medium) and a reduced oxygen environment because the bacteria is microaerophilic. 1,15 Different serotypes of Campylobacter may be identified by their thermostabile or thermolabile surface antigens, by PCR/restriction enzyme assays, or by fluorescent amplified fragment length polymorphism fingerprinting. 1,13,14 Serologic assays specifically for dogs and cats have not been developed or evaluated.

Disease description in this species:
Campylobacter spp. may be isolated from both healthy and symptomatic cats, and cats may be asymptomatic carriers of the bacteria. Most infected cats are asymptomatic. Clinical disease (i.e. diarrhea) and shedding of bacteria are more likely to occur in young cats (< 6 months old), although in one study cats 3-5 years of age were also infected.8 Cats that are stressed by other illnesses (e.g. parvovirus, helicobacteriosis, giardiasis, etc.) and shipping, or are housed in high density populations, such as in shelters, laboratories, or catteries have a higher prevalence of clinical signs. 1,3,4,10,11 A seasonal incidence may also be noted, with more cases arising in the summer or autumn. 8 Mild diarrhea, sometimes with blood and mucous are the most common clinical signs. Anorexia, lethargy, and tenesmus have also been noted. 3 The diarrhea may become chronic or recurrent in some cases. 3 Co-infection with Helicobacter and other enteric pathogens is also possible. 2

Etiology:
Campylobacter jejuni


Age predilection:
Juvenile


Clinical findings:
AFEBRILE
ANOREXIA
Cachexia
Dehydration
DIARRHEA
Diarrhea hemorrhagic
Diarrhea mucoid
Diarrhea watery
Feces mucus covered
FEVER
Hematochezia
Malaise
TACHYCARDIA
Tenesmus
VOMITING
Zoonosis, Zoonoses
ZZZ INDEX ZZZ


Diagnostic procedures: Diagnostic results:
Ocular examination Leukocytosis

Campylobacter culture of feces Campylobacter jejuni isolated and identified

Stained fecal smears Gram negative organisms may be isolated in some cases.
Leukocytes in feces

Exploratory of abdomen or necropsy Intestinal congestion

Necropsy Colonic lymphadenopathy
Fluid in intestinal lumen


Images:


You may click on the image to view a larger version Campylobacter organisms


The Campylobacter organisms are the smaller gram negative curved or "seagull" shaped thin rods that are seen in-between the normal- sized gram positive bacteria.




Treatment/Management/Prevention:
SPECIFIC
1) Antibiotics are instituted once the diagnosis of Campylobacteriosis is confirmed to decrease the presence and shedding of the bacteria, but the actual efficacy of antibiotics for Campylobacteriosis is not well defined.

2) The choice of antibiotics may be based upon sensitivity testing or past experience with the bacteria. Options that have shown efficacy in the past include: 1,7,17

Erythromycin: 10 mg/kg PO q8-12h x 5-21 days
Cefoxitin: 15-20 mg/kg SC, IM, IV q8h x 5-7 days.
Chloramphenicol: 10-15 mg/kg PO q12h for 5-7 days.
Enrofloxacin: 2.5 mg/kg PO q12h x 5-7 days. This drug is contraindicated in young, growing animals.
3) Antibiotics that may also have efficacy against many strains of Campylobacter include gentamicin and clindamycin. 1

4) Campylobacteria are commonly resistant to streptomycin, penicillin, ampicillin, trimethoprim, vancomycin, and metronidazole. 1,7

SUPPORTIVE
1) Supportive care with subcutaneous or intravenous fluid therapy, electrolyte supplementation, and gastrointestinal protectants may also be warranted in individual cases.

Preventive Measures:
Strict sanitation and hygiene help prevent transmission. Campylobacter species are readily killed with drying or heating, but are viable in moist environments at room temperature for at least 3 days, and for up to one week when refrigerated. The bacteria are susceptible to many disinfectants, such as 1% sodium hypochlorite, 70% ethanol, iodine-based products, phenolic chemicals, and formaldehyde.

Special considerations:
C. jejuni, C. coli, and C. upsaliensisi cause gastroenteritis in people, and both dogs and cats are potential sources of infection. 1,4,6,8,10,12 Human infections may be acquired from ill pets, or from asymptomatic carriers. Another potential source of human infection is from the eating of raw or undercooked meat or poultry. All in-contact humans should be warned of the zoonotic potential of this disease.

Click here to see previous VIN discussions on this topic: Campylobacter infections in cats

Click here for link to Iowa State University summary of Camplyobacteriosis in all species Campylobacteriosis


Differential Diagnosis:
Helicobacteriosis
Salmonellosis
Giardiasis
Coccidiosis
Cryptosporidiosis
Toxoplasmosis
Parvovirus (panleukopenia)
Trichomoniasis


References:
1) Fox JG: Campylobacter infections. Infectious Diseases of the Dog and Cat, 2nd ed. Philadelphia, WB Saunders 1998 pp. 226-229.
2) Shen Z, Feng Y, Dewhirst FE, Fox JG: Co-infection of enteric Helicobacter spp. and Campylobacter spp. in cats. J Clin Microbiol 2001 Vol 39 pp. 2166-2172.
3) Junttila J, Schildt R, Myllys E, et al: Campylobacter-associated epidemic in cats. Companion Anim Pract 1987 Vol 1 pp. 16-18.
4) Spain CV, Scarlett JM, Wade SE, McDonough P: Prevalence of enteric zoonotic agents in cats less than 1 year old in central New York State. J Vet Intern Med 2001 Vol 15 pp. 33-38.
5) Burnens AP, Nicolet J: Detection of Campylobacter upsaliensis in diarrheic dogs and cats, using a selective medium with cefoperazone. Am J Vet res 1992 Vol 53 pp. 48-51.
6) Hill SL, Cheney JM, Taton-Allen GF, et al: Prevalence of enteric zoonotic organisms in cats. J Am Vet Med Assoc 2000 Vol 216 pp. 686-692.
7) Sandberg M, Bergsjo B, Hofshagen M, et al: Risk factors for Campylobacter infection in Norwegian cats and dogs. Prev Vet Med 2002 Vol 55 pp. 241-252.
8) Lopez CM, Giacoboni G, Agostini A, et al: Thermotolerant Campylobacters in domestic animals in a defined population in Buenos Aires, Argentina. Prev Vet Med 2002 Vol 55 pp. 193-200.
9) Moser I, Reiksneuwohner B, Lentzsch P, et al: Genomic heterogeneity and O-antigen diversity of Campylobacter upsaliensis and Campylobacter helveticus strains isolated from dogs and cats in Germany. J Clin Microbiol 2001 Vol 39 pp. 2548-2557.
10) Baker J, Barton MD, Lanser J: Campylobacter species in cats and dogs in South Australia. Aust Vet J 1999 Vol 77 pp. 662-666.
11) McDonough PL, Simpson KW: Diagnosing emerging bacterial infections: Salmonellosis, campylobacteriosis, clostridial toxicosis, and helicobacteriosis. Semin Vet Med Surg Small Anim 1996 Vol 11 pp. 187-197.
12) Hald B, Madsen M: Healthy puppies and kittens as carriers of Campylobacter spp., with special reference to Campylobacter upsaliensis. J Clin Microbiol 1997 Vol 35 pp. 3351-3352.
13) Engvall EO, Brandstrom B, Gunnarsson A, et al: Validation of a polymerase chain reaction/restriction enzyme analysis method for species identification of thermophilic Campylobacters isolated from domestic and wild animals. J Appl Microbiol 2002 Vol 92 pp. 47-54.
14) Duim B, Vandamme PA, Rigter A, et al: Differentiation of Campylobacter species by AFLP fingerprinting. Microbiology 2001 Vol 147 (Pt 10) pp. 2729-2737.
15) Byrne C, Doherty D, Mooney A, et al : Basis of the superiority of cefoperazone amphotericin teicoplanin for isolating Campylobacter upsaliensis from stools. J Clin Microbiology 2001 Vol 39 pp. 2713-2716.
16) Monfort JD, Donahoe JP, Stills HF Jr, Bech-Neilsen S: Efficacies of erythromycin and chloramphenicol in extinguishing fecal shedding of Campylobacter jejuni in dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1990 Vol 196 (7) pp. 1069-1072.
17) Jergens AE: Rational use of antimicrobials for gastrointestinal disease in small animals. J Am Anim Hosp Assoc 1994 Vol 30 pp. 123-131.
18) Marks SL: Diagnostic and therapeutic approach to cats with chronic diarrhoea. J Feline Med Surg 2000 Vol 2 pp. 105-109.

Source: VIN

[kestrel91316]

80. Subthread on E. coli infection in dogs and cats:

Excerpt from AVMA zoonosis update http://avma.org/reference/zoonosis/znescherichiacoli.asp :

".......Escherichia coli O157:H7 infection has been documented several times in dogs9,26 but never in cats. All the reports are associated with the farm environment. One of the reports identified an outbreak of E coli O157:H7, where epidemiologically related strains of O157:H7 were isolated from a dog, a pony from the same farm, and a child that developed bloody diarrhea after the infection.9 Although in this study the cattle and the goat had negative test results, the limited number of samples taken and the fact the agent is shed intermittently does not rule out cattle as the source of the pathogens. In a study of the sources of E coli O157:H7 in feedlots and farms in the northwestern United States, 65 dog samples and 33 cat samples were obtained and analyzed for the presence of E coli O157:H7. Results for all cat samples were negative, and 3.1% of the dog samples tested positive. The probable source of the bacterium for the dogs on these farms could have been the cattle directly or the water troughs.26 In a comparison study27 using a newly developed phage typing scheme for E coli O157:H7, it was determined that an STEC strain isolated from a dog was of the same phage type as E coli O157:H7 isolates obtained from humans. Two additional reports, both from the United Kingdom, associating E coli O157:H7 with dogs have been reported through Pro-Med28 and the FS Net.29 The Pro-Med report28 describes a geriatric, double incontinent dog that shed E coli O157:H7 in its feces. The dog's diet consisted of dry food and occasional food scraps. The FS Net report29 described results of an outbreak investigation in which 90 fecal samples from dogs were obtained from 4 different beaches, and 7.8% of the samples were contaminated with E coli O157:H7. The role of dogs in transmitting E coli O157:H7 to humans should be considered as a potential risk factor for infection............."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dogs may become asymptomatic/transient carriers of E. coli O157:H7. I am not aware of it occurring in cats, but at this time I see no reason why it couldn't. The role of this pathogen in dog and cat illnesses is not well understood at this time. Again, given how lethal it can be in humans, we are well-advised to use caution and avoid exposing our pets to it needlessly.

[kestrel91316]

81. Subthread on pathogenicity of Toxoplasma in cats:

Toxoplasmosis1-6,10 (Zoonotic)
Disease description:
Toxoplasmosis infection is acquired by ingestion of sporulated oocysts, tachyzoites in tissue and fluid, bradyzoites within tissue cysts, and in utero infection. Ingested organisms then migrate through the intestinal wall and through the lymphatics to mesenteric lymph nodes. Dissemination takes place by way of the bloodstream and lymphatics to other organs including the liver, pancreas, lymph nodes, intestines, lungs, heart, skeletal muscle, CNS, and eyes.12

Pathogenesis is associated with rupture of the host cells as a result of the rapid proliferation of tachyzoites, which then invade other cells. Necrosis of the cells and vasculitis result from immune mediated reactions to the organism. Bradyzoite cysts form in the chronic cases and these cysts can persist for long periods of time.

Clinical disease depends on locations and numbers of cysts present. The enteroepithelial or intestinal cycle, that produces oocysts, occurs only in the cat family which are definitive hosts. Intermediate hosts are fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals.

Etiology:
Toxoplasma gondii


Clinical findings:
Abdominal pain
Abortion
AFEBRILE
ANOREXIA
ARRHYTHMIA
ASCITES
ATAXIA, INCOORDINATION
Behavior change
BLINDNESS
Cachexia
CONVULSIONS
COUGHING
Depression
DIARRHEA
DYSPNEA
ENCEPHALITIS, ENCEPHALOPATHY
Exercise intolerant or reluctant to move
FEVER
GAIT ABNORMAL
HEPATITIS, LIVER INFLAMMED
Hepatomegaly
Icterus
LYMPHADENOPATHY
Malaise
Mental dullness
Miosis
Muscles painful, myalgia
OCULAR DISCHARGE
Onset gradual, chronic
PAIN
Pale mucous membranes
PARALYSIS OR PARESIS
Photophobia
TACHYCARDIA
Tremors
VOMITING
WEAKNESS
Zoonosis, Zoonoses
ZZZ INDEX ZZZ


Diagnostic procedures: Diagnostic results:
Ocular examination ANEMIA - variable
Anemia normocytic, normochromic
Leukocytosis
Leukopenia
Neutrophilia - uncommon

Serum chemistry Alanine aminotransferase increased
Alkaline phosphatase increased
Amylasemia
Aspartine aminotransferase increased
Gamma-glutamyl transferase (GGT) increased
Hypoalbuminemia
Hypoproteinemia
Lipasemia, lipase increased

Urinalysis and Urine Sedimentation Bilirubinuria, urine bilirubin increased
Proteinuria

Radiography of the thorax Pulmonary alveolar and interstitial infiltrate
Pulmonary infiltrate, pneumonia

Electrocardiography ELECTROCARDIOGRAPH ABNORMAL

Ocular examination Aqueous flare
Retinitis

Cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) analysis Cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) protein increased
CSF PLEOCYTOSIS, CELLS INCREASED

Whole body radiographs Toxoplasma IgM titer positive

Electroencephalography (EEG) EEG ABNORMAL
High voltage, slow wave activity

Exploratory of abdomen or necropsy Pancreatitis

Necropsy Aspirates may reveal fungi, bacteria or neoplastic lymphocytes in selected cases; histopathology usually diagnostic.
Encephalomyelitis
Toxoplasma cysts in central nervous system
Toxoplasma cysts in conjunctiva


Preventive Measures:
A vaccine is being developed to prevent cats from shedding Toxoplasma oocysts.9,10

Special considerations:
Toxoplasma is a common protozoal infection. It is in the family Sarcocystidae. How frequently it is responsible for disease is unknown, probably uncommon.

Treatment:
1) Clindamycin 5-10 mg/kg PO q6-8h.
2) Sulfadiazine 15-30 mg/kg PO q6-12h with pyrimethamine 0.5-1.0 mg/kg PO q24h for 2 days then 0.25 mg/kg PO q24h for 2 weeks.
3) Folinic acid 1.0 mg/day recommended for anemia and thrombocytopenia.


References:
1) Fenner WR: Quick Reference to Veterinary Medicine, 2nd ed. Quick Reference to Veterinary Medicine, 2nd ed. Philadelphia, JB Lippincott 1991.
2) Greene CE: Clinical Microbiology and Infectious Diseases of the Dog and Cat, 2nd ed. Clinical Microbiology and Infectious Diseases of the Dog and Cat, 2nd ed. Philadelphia, WB Saunders 1990.
3) Swango LJ, Bankemper KW, Kong LI: Bacterial, rickettsial, protozoal and miscellaneous infections. Textbook of Veterinary Internal Medicine, Diseases of the Dog and Cat, 3rd ed. Philadelphia, WB Saunders 1989 pp. 265-297.
4) Murtaugh RJ: Protozoal diseases. New York, Churchill Livingstone 1988 pp. 1009-1028.
5) Levine ND: Veterinary Protozoology. Ames, Iowa State University Press 1985.
6) Dubey JP, Greene CE, Lappin MR: Toxoplasmosis and neosporosis. Philadelphia, WB Saunders 1990 pp. 818-834.
7) Olsen LH, Fredholm M, Pedersen HD: Epidemiology and inheritance of mitral valve prolapse in Dachshunds. J Vet Intern Med 1999 Vol 13 (5) pp. 448-456.
7) Lappin MR, Greene CE, Winston S, et al: Clinical feline toxoplasmosis. J Vet Int Med 1989 Vol 3 pp. 139-143.
8) Frenkel JK, Smith DD: Immunization of cats against shedding of Toxoplasma oocysts by cats. J Parasitol 1982 Vol 68 pp. 744-748.
9) Fishback JL, Frenkel JK: Prospective vaccines to prevent feline shedding of Toxoplasma oocysts. Comp Cont Educ Prac Vet 1990 Vol 12 pp. 643-648.
10) Dubey JP: Toxoplasmosis and other coccidial infections. New York, Churchill Livingstone 1994 pp. 565-574.
11) Hill SL, Cheney JM, Taton-Allen GF, et al: Prevalence of enteric zoonotic organisms in cats. JAVMA 2000 Vol 216 pp. 686-692.
12) Duncan RB, Lindsay D, Chickering WR, et al: Acute primary toxoplasmosis pancreatitis in cat. Fel Practice 2000 Vol 28 (1) pp. 6-8.

Source: VIN

[LynneSin]

82. Now here are the facts from someone who has learned much about raw-food diets

My cats are not on the diet, I'm too lazy to go through that hassle.

But I have a friend who's dog was suffering from various skin maladies & allergies. Thousands of dollars on testing showed that this dog (which was only a few years old) should not be suffering the way he was. So the friend switched his dog to a raw-food vendor for pets. Six months later the medical issues have cleared up and the dog is healthier than ever.

Mind you, the guy didn't just go to the supermarket and buy 100lbs of raw beef & chicken. He found a local vendor that specializes in raw food for pets. He was able to see the place where the food was packaged and learned about the testing that the food gets before being sold. His dog has not had any food related illness from the food purchased.

If my cats were having the medical issues that this dog was having, I might even consider a raw-food diet. The diets are safe provided that you go through a raw-food vendor and NOT try to 'do-it-yourself'.

[lukasahero]

85. Actually, I think that's more like "here's an anecdote" rather than "here are the facts"

Sorry but seriously, one person's experience does not equal "the facts".

[LynneSin]

88. You have a point there but if you research this on the web

You'll find that every recommends that you buy from someone who specializes in raw-food instead of just grabbing stuff from the local grocery store.

[kestrel91316]

89. Sadly, this isn't true either:

"........The diets are safe provided that you go through a raw-food vendor and NOT try to 'do-it-yourself'......."

The bad contaminants come WITH the raw meat from the slaughter/packing facility. Both these articles concern commercially available raw diets:

FDA detects Salmonella contamination in brand of raw cat food
http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/apr07/070401l.asp

Raw meat diets spark concern
http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/jan05/050115ww.asp

[PhilipShore]

90. Would Grapefruit Seed Extract (GSE)...

added to the raw food -- kill most of the bacteria in the meat? I am to lazy to make a "raw diet" food for my cat, so I am now feeding her Merrick's wet cat food, she loves it.

[TZ]

91. I doubt it

because anything acidic enough (which I assume is why you suggested this) to kill the bacteria would likely be unpleasant for your cats. Plus, if I remember my micro well enough, some bacteria are acidophiles and actually thrive in lower/acidic pH's. From what I know cooking at a high temp for an extended amont of time is the only way to kill bacteria in food.In our lab we use BLEACH to kill pathogens, obviously you can't do that with food.
(:-)

[PhilipShore]

93. Pets 4 Life FAQ: Grapefruit seed extract kills all dangerous bacteria.

Grapefruit seed extract kills all dangerous bacteria.

http://www.pets4life.com/index.php?p=research/faqs">Link

It kills most bacteria but the dangerous bacteria it may not. But the dangerous bacteria is rarely seen in meat today. All meat fed is USDA human grade. The meat is thoroughly inspected and carefully chosen for the Home Made 4 Life diet. There should be no concern. The dog and cats gut does not provide for bacteria to harbour in the gut long enough for the bacteria to be of a concern. The carnivore’s gut is much different then a human’s gut. The carnivore’s gut is shorter and quicker for processing food thru. Prevention is the key to good health. That is why we have added GSE(Grapefruit Seed Extract) to the diet to ensure that the meat is safe. It is not necessary but we want to make sure that it is SAFE. :)

If you want to find out more about GSE go to the proseed (http://www.imhotepinc.com/ITPwho.htm) or nutribiotic (http://www.nutribiotic.com) web sites to see for yourself. Ask them for scientific proof and they will provide it for you.

[TZ]

96. hmmm company website vs.

microbiology textbook. I know what I believe. And the dangerous bacteria are more common in today's meat than ever. Like I said, could also promote certain growth of other bacteria. More bacteria are sensitive to the higher pH's (lyes and bleaches) then acids. Raw LEMONS don't inhibit growth of most bacteria. This sounds like a company using new age pseudoscience to promote thier product IMHO. But what do I know? I am only a biologist with 10 years of experience including testing for and dealing with both human and animal pathogens...:sarcasm:

[PhilipShore]

104. University of Georgia Evaluates GSE: Our studies indicate excellent potential for ... (GSE)

Nutriteam

http://www.nutriteam.com/index2.html">Link

Testing was conducted by the U. of Georgia, in Athens, GA, to evaluate grapefruit seed extract in tests against E. Coli, Salmonella sps., and Staph aureus. Roger Wyatt, Ph.D., and Microbiologist for the U. of GA, reported,

"Our studies indicate excellent potential for these products(GSE). ...The toxicological that I have reviewed indicated that this product and the active ingredient poses very low toxicity. As you know this is important because most disinfectants that are currently used in either animal or human environments have moderate to high toxicity and extreme care must be exercised when these products are used. The lack of any significant toxicological properties of (GSE) is also impressive when one views the efficacy data where extemely small concentrations of the product can be used with marked beneficial results."

Dr. Wyatt continued, "In view of the reports that we have discussed, the wide spectrum of activity that (GSE) offers(antiviral, antibacterial; Gram+ and Gram-, antimycotic, and antiprotozoan) will undoubtedly aid in its acceptability."

Dr. Wyatt's findings have also been confirmed by a variety of clinics and labs, as well as universities from around the world, including the University of Arkansas, the U. of Malaya, the U. of Sao Paulo, and the University Ricardo Palma, to name a few.

[kestrel91316]

107. Please post research data showing how GSE has been proven

to eliminate all risk of foodborne disease when used in preparation of raw meat diets. Also, post the data that proves that such a diet is both attractive enough for the pet to eat AND when fed, is capable of sustaining health over time.

(crickets chirping......)

[kestrel91316]

106. New age pseudoscience. That's being CHARITABLE.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PhilipShore]

109. I was not trying to prove a point , or debate with you n/t

I am not a doctor; so I have no idea, what a peer review is -- a review of the company website cites a trained microbiologist. Is that a peer study?

Nutriteam

http://www.nutriteam.com/index2.html">Link

Testing was conducted by the U. of Georgia, in Athens, GA, to evaluate grapefruit seed extract in tests against E. Coli, Salmonella sps., and Staph aureus. Roger Wyatt, Ph.D., and Microbiologist for the U. of GA, reported,

[TZ]

110. you do understand that the claims being made...

are utterly scientifically impossible. No one substance can be mild enough to kill all those different organisms and be used in food.

[PhilipShore]

114. I think it works... not for everything...

but I use it all the time as an alternative to antibiotics. My doctors -- go nuts -- but they are not trained holistic doctors, and they were prescribing Penicillin -- and I clearly was allergic to it. When I switched to a non-penicillin antibiotic, I did not get sick.

I think my vet is a holistic doctor -- he prescribed Acetic acid/Carbolic Ac/Phos Ac, is that a Vitamin or Herb?

[TZ]

117. Do you mean Ascorbic acid?

Acetic acid is a chemical. Ascorbic acid is vitamin C.
As for your doctors with Penecillin, thats clearly negligence if they were prescribing something that you were clearly allergic to. GSE, if you are using it to stay healthy MAY, and again I am skeptical, may serve as an immune booster, like vitamin C. I would not call it an antibacterial, antiviral, antimycotic...anyone who claims that is selling snake oil.

[PhilipShore]

119. No, it is -- exactly -- what the prescribed medicine says on the bottle

Acetic Ac/Carbolic Ac/ Phos Ac, 5 drops 3 times a day

[TZ]

121. For what if I may ask?

Maybe I can see the benefits of Carbolic or Phosphoric, but at a loss what Acetic acid would work for. Thats a lab chemical I work with from time to time.:shrug:

[PhilipShore]

122. Reducing blood sugar levels

That is my guess.

[TZ]

124. okay if thats what your vet says

I don't understand that at all, honestly. Although, I have a blood disorder with too many blood cells and I have heard about homeopathic remedies with acetic acid which puzzled me before. I guess I don't have enough biochemisty to understand the theory there. It just doesn't seem logical to me though.

[PhilipShore]

125. No, he did not say it was to reduce blood sugar

She was urinating frequently, and drinking excessive amounts of water. Now she has none of those problems.

[kestrel91316]

127. If it were me, I sure wouldn't be taking carbolic acid or phosphoric acid

internally..............

Carbolic acid.........hmmmmmmm.....why do visions of Hans Semmelweis and women in childbirth come to mind???

[PhilipShore]

130. Thanks

Can a cat under extreme stress, like going into -- fight mode -- with another cat, raise the blood sugar level by 200 points? Her blood sugar was 250 according to the vet.

She was even in a "fight mode" during the exam with the vet.

[kestrel91316]

134. Stress hyperglycemia is VERY common in cats.

It's why I don't do very many blood glucose curves in my diabetic patients. They turn out screwy every single time.

That sort of stress reaction requires no treatment whatsoever, except perhaps tranquilization of kitty prior to the next visit, lol.

More importantly is, what did urinalysis show. High blood sugar plur sugar in the urine equals diabetes in most cases. Hope your vet is keeping on top of this. Untreated diabetes is fatal.

[PhilipShore]

138. Thanks

Cats are very smart; she knew I was talking about her, and she got quite happy and running all around playing, when I asked the question.

[Dogmudgeon]

160. Carbolic Acid ... that's phenol, right?

--p!

[lizerdbits]

146. Umm

Acetic acid is vinegar which is probably a lot cheaper than what you're buying now. Carbolic acid is also called phenol. Here's an MSDS for it: http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/p1952.htm But hey, that's for an 88-92% liquid.

[TZ]

148. ooh

I had forgotten that particular detail on the carbolic acid.

[PhilipShore]

154. You mean my vet -- prescribed -- Pine-Sol and Lysol for my cat?

http://www.i-pets.com/rpet25.html

PET READING
Interesting articles and handy tips for pet owners
The Top Household Dangers to Your Pets

#

Phenol and Phenol Derivatives, such as Pine-Sol and Lysol


*

Phenol and derivatives such as creosote, naphthol, wood tar and others
*

Especially toxic to cats
*

SYMPTOMS: Muscle twitches, depression, coma, respiratory distress, jaundice. Contact Vet immediately.
*

PREVENTION: Use safe home cleaning and other products instead of those with phenol (which is obtained from coal tar) and phenol derivative.



Phenol
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenol

Injections of phenol have occasionally been used as a means of rapid execution. In particular, phenol was used as a means of extermination by the Nazis during the Second World War. Phenol injections were given to thousands of people in concentration camps, especially at Auschwitz-Birkenau. Injections were administered either by medical doctors or by their assistants; such injections were originally given intravenously, more commonly in the arm, but injection directly into the heart, so as to induce nearly instant death, was later preferred. <2>

[lizerdbits]

156. Probably something to ask about

next time you're in.

[kestrel91316]

158. Something tells me I better stay WAY away from this phenol

in cats thing. I might say something that will get me banished........

WHY do people think because something is supposedly homeopathic that it can't do any harm? I had a client several years ago that KILLED HER CAT WITH CYANIDE. A "holistic" vet prescribed laetrile for the cat over the phone, without ever seeing it (after I had removed a malignant mass from the paw). The client never told me, she just gave it the laetrile. Next thing I know, she presents the cat to me, comatose.

With an extraordinary effort that included taking the cat home with me one night (it stayed in the bathtub, with IV fluids running, merrily seizuring away......) I got it over the worst - had to get the cyanide antidote from the pharmacist down the street. Poor cat stopped seizuring, but was permanently blind and deaf and had to be PTS, couldn't recognize food or eat.

"Holistic" practitioners don't impress me in the least.

[PhilipShore]

163. I am not going to panic

It is listed as a homeopathic medicine. I just have no idea, what they are talking about, when I attempt to read the language. It is also -- listed as an ingredient in homeopathic Flu medicines.

Carbolic Acid. - Homeopathic Remedies

URINE
urine; colour; black;
urine; alkaline;
Diabetes
Irritable bladder in old men with frequent urination at night, or probably prostatic nature

http://www.abchomeopathy.com/r.php/Carb-ac

Flu Relief Tablets by NatraBio 24 Chewable Tablets

http://www.health.icestandard.org/products.php?q=Flu+Relief+Tablets+by+NatraBio+24+Chewable+Tablets


For body ache, minor fever, chills, nausea vomiting, nasal congestion, sore throat and cough and headache. Homeopathic Medicine is a safe treatment for most minor ailments. Symptom relief is attained through stimulation of the natural healing process. Precise levels of homeopathic ingredients work safely and without side effects. Suggested Use Adults, chew 1 tablet and allow to dissolve in the mouth every hour for 4 hours, then reduce to every 4 hours or as needed. Children 2 12 years of age, take one half the adult dosage. Ingredients Active Carbolicum Acidum 4X, 25.0% Carbolic Acid, Sticta pulmonaria 4X, 25.0% Lungwort, Triosteum perfoliatum 4X, 25.0% Wild Ipecac, Aviare 7C, 12.5% Mycobacterium Aviary Nosode, Influenzinum 7C, 12.5% Influenza Nosode Inactive Lactose Warnings A persistent or high fever may be the sign of a serious health condition. If symptoms do not improve after 10 days, consult your health care professional. As with any drug, if you are pregn

[kestrel91316]

115. "........so I have no idea, what a peer review is ........."

Oh dear. This isn't good.

Well, here you go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_review

I just LOVE wikipedia.

[PhilipShore]

116. Thanks

:)

[PhilipShore]

126. Peer Review: Journal of Burns and Wounds in December, 2004, GSE

http://www.nutriteam.com/faq.htm

Q. Is Grapefruit Extract effective against anthrax?

A.This is no longer a "frequently-asked-question" with the anthrax scare well behind us for now. However, there is some exciting news: a study entitled "Combating Anthrax: The Anti-Infective Armamentorium" has been published in the Journal of Burns and Wounds in December, 2004. This study establishes that GSE is an effective topical treatment for anthrax. This Journal is also available online, at www.journalofburnsandwounds.com. The authors are J.P. Heggers, R. Goodheart, A. Chopra, and J. Peterson, associated with the Department of Surgery, University of Texas Medical Branch, and Shriners Burn Hospital, Galveston, Texas. GSE also destroys bacillus subtilis, a spore that causes food spoilage and is a cousin of the anthrax spore, bacillus anthracis. Laboratory tests required only 2 ppm concentration to inhibit B. subtilis.

Serious efforts have been made for years to get the F.D.A. to register GSE(E.P.A. has been petitioned also). Both agencies have consistently ignored the petitions. This is most unfortunate, as there are literally thousands of people who can testify to the effectiveness of GSE against hundreds of harmful pathogens, including some very dangerous drug-resistant strains. It is certainly encouraging to see this current research published in a well-known, peer-reviewed journal of world-wide repute.

[TZ]

128. NO NO and NO!

I have professional knowledge of Bacillus Anthracis and I can tell you there is NO POSSIBLE WAY THIS IS TRUE. Bacillus Subtilis is a different bacteria for one thing. B.Anthracis is only used in BioSafety level 4- the highest level of biosafety possible and there are 3 or 4 labs in the entire country and they are exceedingly overworked. I guaruntee they have not had time to test this "theory"! This confirms my suspicions- pure snake oil. I will no longer debate this issue with you And of course its inhalation Anthrax which is the worry more than the contact. To even "claim" this is totally irresponsible.

[PhilipShore]

132. Have you read the peer review cited? I cannot find it n/t

[TZ]

133. I can't either

seems to be misleading. I would say that they have misinterpreted data from whatever paper they are talking about. That wouldn't be the first time.

[PhilipShore]

136. All I could find is this:

Heggers JP, Cottingham J, Gusman J, Reagor L, McCoy L, Carino E, Cox R, Zhao J. The effectiveness of processed grapefruit-seed extract as an antibacterial agent: II. Mechanism of action and In Vitro Toxicity. Jour Altern and Complemen Med, Volume 8(3): 333-340, 2002.

Reagor L, Gusman J, McCoy L, Carino E, Heggers JP. The effectiveness of processed grapefruit-seed extract as an antibacterial agent: l. An In Vitro Agar Assay. Jour Altern and Complemen Med, Volume 8(3): 325-332, 2002.

[kestrel91316]

144. This pretty much sums it up:

"......In Vitro Toxicity......." = kills germs in test tubes

Well, so does pure bleach. But I wouldn't put into my pet's food based on that.

[kestrel91316]

145. You are also citing two references from a journal I would consider

to be somewhat less than rigorous in its "peer review" process.

Journal of Alternate and Complementary Medicine: "The Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine includes observational and analytical reports......"

I'd be interested to know if they have ever published any double-blind controlled studies that are considered valid outside of Alternative Medicine circles.

[PhilipShore]

150. The effectiveness of processed grapefruit-seed extract as an antibacterial agent: I. An in vitro aga

The effectiveness of processed grapefruit-seed extract as an antibacterial agent: I. An in vitro agar assay

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12165190&query_hl=1

Reagor L, Gusman J, McCoy L, Carino E, Heggers JP.

School of Medicine, University of Texas, Medical Branch, Galveston, USA.

OBJECTIVES: Grapefruit-seed extract (GSE) Citricidal has, in recent reports, been reported to be successful in combating a variety of common infectious agents. In our study, drops of concentrated grapefruit-seed extract were tested for antibacterial properties against a number of gram-positive and gram-negative organisms. DESIGN: Sixty-seven (67) distinct biotypes were tested for their susceptibilities to the GSE as well as to 5 other topical antibacterials (Silvadene, Sulfamylon, Bactroban, Nitrofurazone, and Silvadene, Nystatin). Wells were punched into Mueller-Hinton agar plates, which were then inoculated with the organism to be tested; each well was then inoculated with one of the antibacterial agents. After an overnight incubation period, the plates were checked for zones of bacterial susceptibility around the individual wells, with a measured susceptibility zone diameter of 10 mm or more considered a positive result. RESULTS: The GSE was consistently antibacterial against all of the biotypes tested, with susceptibility zone diameters equal to or greater than 15 mm in each case. CONCLUSIONS: Our preliminary data thus suggest an antibacterial characteristic to GSE that is comparable to that of proven topical antibacterials. Although the GSE appeared to have a somewhat greater inhibitory effect on gram-positive organisms than on gram-negative organisms, its comparative effectiveness against a wide range of bacterial biotypes is significant.


The effectiveness of processed grapefruit-seed extract as an antibacterial agent: II. Mechanism of action and in vitro toxicity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12165191&query_hl=1

J Altern Complement Med. 2002 Jun;8(3):333-40.

Erratum in:

* J Altern Complement Med 2002 Aug;8(4):521. Reagor Lana .

The effectiveness of processed grapefruit-seed extract as an antibacterial agent: II. Mechanism of action and in vitro toxicity.

Heggers JP, Cottingham J, Gusman J, Reagor L, McCoy L, Carino E, Cox R, Zhao JG.

Department of Surgery (Plastic), School of Medicine, University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, USA. [email protected]

OBJECTIVES: Recent testimonials report grapefruit-seed extract, or GSE (Citricidal) to be effective against more than 800 bacterial and viral strains, 100 strains of fungus, and a large number of single and multicelled parasites. This study investigated GSE for antibacterial activity at varying time intervals and concentration levels and tissue toxicity at varying concentrations in an effort to determine if a concentration existed that was both microbicidal and nontoxic and in what period of time. DESIGN: Gram-negative and gram-positive isolates were introduced into graduated dilutions of GSE (twofold concentrations ranging from 1:1, through 1:512) for determination of bacterial activity. In vitro assays with human skin fibroblast cells were also performed at the same dilutions to determine toxicity. RESULTS: These tests indicated that from the 1:1 through the 1:128 concentrations, GSE remained toxic as well as bactericidal. However, test results indicated that at the 1:512 dilution, GSE remained bactericidal, but completely nontoxic. CONCLUSIONS: The initial data shows GSE to have antimicrobial properties against a wide range of gram-negative and gram-positive organisms at dilutions found to be safe. With the aid of scanning transmission electron microscopy (STEM), the mechanism of GSE's antibacterial activity was revealed. It was evident that GSE disrupts the bacterial membrane and liberates the cytoplasmic contents within 15 minutes after contact even at more dilute concentrations.

[kestrel91316]

159. Bactericidal activity in vitro is common as dirt. Can it be put into

raw food diets to make them perfectly safe while retaining palatability? Who knows. I suspect not. My cats turn their noses up at the slightest whiff of citrus, lol.

[foo_bar]

171. the active ingredient in "GSE" turned out to be the preservative itself

In all of the antimicrobial active grapefruit seed extracts, the preservative benzethonium chloride was detected by thin layer chromatography. Additionally, three extracts contained the preserving substances triclosan and methyl parabene. In only one of the grapefruit seed extracts tested no preservative agent was found. However, with this extract as well as with several self-made extracts from seed and juiceless pulp of grapefruits (Citrus paradisi) no antimicrobial activity could be detected (standard serial broth dilution assay, agar diffusion test). Thus, it is concluded that the potent as well as nearly universal antimicrobial activity being attributed to grapefruit seed extract is merely due to the synthetic preservative agents contained within. Natural products with antimicrobial activity do not appear to be present.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10399191&dopt=Abstract

The components in a commercial natural food additive "Grapefruit seed extract" and the ethanol extract of grapefruit seeds were analyzed by HPLC and LC/MS. The HPLC chromatogram of the commercial grapefruit seed extract was quite different from that of the ethanol extract of grapefruit seeds. Three main peaks were observed in the chromatogram of the commercial grapefruit seed extract. By comparison of the retention times and the absorption spectra with those of authentic samples, two peaks were ascribed to methyl-p-hydroxybenzoate and 2,4,4'-trichloro-2'-hydroxydiphenylether (triclosan).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9037863&dopt=Abstract

[lizerdbits]

141. Anthrax is level 3

Putting a vial of spores inside an animal carcass in the autoclave and then seeing if they are still viable is a great autoclave test.

[TZ]

143. are you sure?

I remember that we couldn't get stuff from Dietrich because the level 4 suites were busy with Anthrax I thought. Maybe the different grades- weapons grade. I know my company has NO facility to work with it on site. Only in Michigan, and they must have level 3 labs elsewhere from what I can tell.

[lizerdbits]

149. I know of one level 3 place that used it

but it might depend on the strain. Was that the old job when Tom was saying he couldn't get anything out of RIID? Maybe he was just making things up because he's lazy or using it as an excuse to not do anything.

[lizerdbits]

152. It claims it's effective TOPICALLY

which means probably not spores. So if these claims are true, which I'm pretty doubtful of, it's probably also not very helpful you're infected.

[kestrel91316]

135. "......GSE is an effective topical treatment for anthrax........"

Even if this is true, how does that relate to the foodborne/zoonotic risks of raw meat diets in dogs and cats?

:banghead:

[kestrel91316]

103. Nope.

[yellowcanine]

100. This information actually demonstrates the fallacy of anecdotal data.

If this were a controlled experiment where you had several dogs having the same health problems being tested with a raw food diet against another group with a standard diet (better yet, several other groups on several different non raw food diets) you might have something. But you have one dog whose diet was changed and his problems cleared up. What else was being done besides the diet change? Furthermore, how do you know it wasn't the original diet causing the problem but a different non raw food diet might have had the same beneficial results? You don't, because it was not a controlled experiment. And all it will take is one slip up and you might have a very sick or even a dead dog (or handler!)- even after several non eventful years on the raw diet. I would not be willing to take such a chance. This whole discussion reminds me of the raw milk discussions I have gotten into on DU. Everyone has their favorite anecdotes that seem to refute the overwhelming scientific evidence against the advisability of the practice. But in the end, they are just anecdotes and as such, not to be trusted.

[kestrel91316]

108. Ah, but there's the rub. Most of the people claiming that "their"

diet is the greatest (in spite of facts to the contrary) are vehemently opposed to any and ALL research involving animals. So feeding trials are NOT ACCEPTABLE to them.

I must admit even I consider a feeding trial of raw meats to be exceedingly cruel, but that's just me.

[yellowcanine]

120. Well I am not recommending feeding trials of raw meats either.

Supplements that might address a particular problem - that would be ok though, in my mind.

[GeorgeGist]

111. Thank You

It's always refreshing to hear objective science in the lay community.

[WindRavenX]

112. Kestrel, once again, thank you

I find you scientific background and approach to modern issues to be refreshing :thumbsup:

[pinto]

118. Please remember there's a range of opinion here.

Civility: Treat other members with respect. Do not post personal attacks against other members of this discussion forum.

Content: Do not post messages that are inflammatory, extreme, divisive, incoherent, or otherwise inappropriate. Do not engage in anti-social, disruptive, or trolling behavior. Do not post broad-brush, bigoted statements. The moderators and administrators work very hard to enforce some minimal standards regarding what content is appropriate. But please remember that this is a large and diverse community that includes a broad range of opinion. People who are easily offended, or who are not accustomed to having their opinions (including deeply personal convictions) challenged may not feel entirely comfortable here. A thick skin is necessary to participate on this or any other discussion forum.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

Thanks.

[madokie]

131. so what came first the human derived dog food or the dog

if its the dog then what do you reckon the dogs ate, then. :shrug:
Sorry but I don't buy your argument.

[mondo joe]

137. Whatever they ate then is not what is available as raw food now.

Is it?

[kestrel91316]

139. What don't you buy? My assertion that raw meats contain pathogens

to humans and animals and therefore are inadvisable in pets?

[madokie]

147. so we must feed our pets a known food that is not good for them?

Dogs and Cats have been eating raw meat forever, haven't they???
I don't feed my pet raw meat but I can't see as how that would be worst than feeding them human manufactured dog food where money is the name of the game to the manufacturer and not safety.

[mondo joe]

153. Animals have been eating raw meat forever. And getting parasites and bacteria

related illnesses forever.

Think it's a good idea?

[TZ]

155. here are some NEW reasons why not only should they

not eat raw meat but maybe not even wild animals like mice and birds: West Nile Virus, Hantaa virus, LCM..all emerging problems in this country.

[flvegan]

140. This is really "Kestrel's official position on "raw meat" for pets:" then

Considering the main objection is to raw meat, it's not the diet, just one aspect of it. I would argue that dogs (not cats, per se) would thrive on the same type of "raw diet" that humans undertake.

The majority of my dogs, both personal and rescued, thrive on a vegetarian diet. Sure, it gets scoffed at by some of the folks I speak with, but considering how little they actually know, I don't worry about it.

[kestrel91316]

142. This is actually more correct. I am not keen on homemade diets for

pets, period, but my objection to raw meats concerns the infectious disease aspects. From my perspective, "raw food" = "raw meat" because I am a feline practitioner.

Dogs are omnivores (unlike cats, who are obligate carnivores). You can theoretically, if you are fastidious, feed a homemade vegetarian diet to a dog and get away with it. And as far as homemade diets that would be FAR preferable to feeding a homemade diet with raw meat.

If you are interested, Strombeck's book is considered the best reference for homemade dog foods. You still should work with your vet on it to make sure you are feeding a well-formulated diet overall.

[flvegan]

151. We've been feeding

Nature's Recipe Vegetarian, and we've also used Wow-Bow. I hate that Del Monte (the "new" owner of Nature's Recipe, bought from Heinz) is now in the mix.

I regret to say that I don't work with any of my vets on the diet for our rescues (in general, not in specific cases of treatment). They think a vegetarian diet is idiotic, but then, I also know how little training they've had in nutrition.

I can see how "raw food" = "raw meat" considering your practice. I know folks that have had success with Wysong vegan and a taurine supplement with cats. However, to me, I'm not going to risk my cats' health over my beliefs, considering what nature has suggested for them. When the jury comes back after many years of deliberation on the "veg cat" thing, I'll look at it again.

[kestrel91316]

161. The jury is in on vegetarian diets for cats. BIG NO-NO.

Cats are obligate carnivores. This is a biological fact that no amount of personal opinion or quasi-religious faith-based views can change.

IMHO feeding a cat a vegetarian diet is animal abuse and I would immediately report the owner to the authorities for feeding it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nutritional adequacy of two vegan diets for cats
J Am Vet Med Assoc. December 2004;225(11):1670-5.
Christina M Gray1, Rance K Sellon, Lisa M Freeman
1 Department of Veterinary Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, Washington State University, Pullman, WA 99164-7010, USA.

Abstract
People have a long history of consuming vegetarian diets, and the population of humans who are vegetarians appears to be growing. In a 2002 poll, 4% of Americans considered themselves to be vegetarians. However, vegetarianism comprises a wide range of dietary beliefs and practices. Some of the more common types include ovovegetarians, who eat vegetables and eggs, and lactovegetarians, who eat vegetables and dairy products. The strictest form of vegetarianism is veganism. A vegan excludes meat, seafood, eggs, dairy products, and all other animal products from the diet. Reasons for adopting any of the many vegetarian diets include health as well as religious and ethical concerns. Ethical beliefs are a common reason for people to adopt a vegan lifestyle and to eliminate all animal products from their diet. Some so wish to distance themselves from any sort of animal consumption that they elect to feed their dogs and cats a diet free of animal products. To our knowledge, the health and safety of vegan diets has not been determined for dogs or cats, and this issue is of particular concern for cats. The 2 vegan diets (diets Ab and Bc) analyzed and described here did not meet the minimum nutrient amounts cited in the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) Cat Food Nutrient Profiles and thus cannot be recommended as a sole source of nutrition for cats. The premise of the food manufacturers that their vegan diets can meet 100 % of a cat's nutritional needs was not supported by an independent dietary analysis. Despite obvious differences, all parties interested in this issue are united by a common concern for the welfare of cats. Thus, veterinarians have an important role to play in helping cat owners to understand the unique nutritional requirements of cats so that a diet can be chosen on the basis of the most complete information possible. b Vegecat Kibblemix, Harbingers of a New Age, Troy, Mont. c Evolution diet vegan gourmet vegetable strew entree, Evolution Diet, Saint Paul, Minn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Comment by a veterinary nutritionist:

"....There are many potential problems with feeding vegetarian diets to cats....they won't show up immediately. But in a year or two when one or both cats come in with heart failure due to taurine-deficiency - - well, it's a little past the "I-told-you-so" phase. There are many good resources that show that "cats are carnivores" although there are a couple out there on vegetarian cats as well. I suggest that you have a nutritionist look over their diet to begin with. this will require knowing what they are feeding and how much ( and assumes the nutrient information for the ingredients are available)...."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Comment from a veterinarian who is an alternate medicine consultant:

"Vegan diets for cats - the ones sold as foods and as diet plans, if I'm not mistaken - have recently been proven nutritionally inadequate.
Speaking as an alt med consultant, I hope you will advise this owner that the large majority of alt med veterinarians do not believe in vegan or vegetarian diets for cats. Our entire approach is that when science doesn't have all the answers (and it clearly doesn't in feline nutrition), you must go paleolithic in management. It is pure hubris to believe that we understand enough feline physiology to synthesize an entirely new nutritional plan for a cat, and it's unfair...."

[flvegan]

162. No, it isn't

Your first cite is inconsistent.

Your second cite relates to taurine deficiency, which I suggested in my first post.

Your third cite, I agree with, though I haven't seen the "proven nutritionally inadequate" yet. Regardless of what vets "believe in" I don't think that science has all the answers.

TBH, I'd go with the veterinary nutritionist before either of the others. Doesn't change what's in the bowl, though. For me, the cat still eats meat.

I find this to be questionable: "feeding a cat a vegetarian diet is animal abuse and I would immediately report the owner to the authorities for feeding it."

I think that it'd be wise to first take into full consideration what that diet consists of. Then, take an evaluation of the animal itself. I mean, if the animal is thriving, and the cat was healthy, happy, etc, then I think that you'd be doing a disservice based on a knee-jerk reaction.

I've been accused of animal abuse based on my canine feeding. Some folks forget what an omnivore is.

[kestrel91316]

166. "....I don't think that science has all the answers....."

Veterinary nutrition is a science based on verifiable facts. I practice what is known as evidence-based medicine. I make my practice decisions based upon published, peer-reviewed research findings and years of clinical observations in the course of my own practice. Mumbo-jumbo has no role whatsoever in my professional life, nor should it.

If I practiced medicine based on feelings and emotions and quasi-religious faith-based views, I'd probably find myself successfully sued for malpractice on a regular basis, and my license would eventually be yanked, with ample justification.

I have NO interest in converting you from your religion. My sole goal is to deter others from adopting it, and eventually harming their animals.

[atommom]

170. Thank you for being the voice of reason. nt

[InvisibleTouch]

174. Disagreement is not necessarily a flame or an attack.

In fact, it was you who have attacked people on this topic, calling them "stupid" and making a blanket statement that breeders are generally ignorant of science, and so forth. In fact, I saw the mods remove at least one message of yours on account of your uncalled-for personal attacks. I'm sorry, but you really can't expect to write up an inflammatory post and then say "If you disagree with me, don't post here." Your post in itself was a provocation, and you can expect replies.

Like many others here, I've greatly appreciated your inside info and insights into the pet food poisonings, but that doesn't mean I have to automatically agree with you on every point. On raw feeding, I personally believe without a doubt that you're simply wrong and misinformed. My own experiences, and those of many others on this site and elsewhere, have shown many times that illnesses and conditions that were considered incurable, or treatable only with a lifelong intake of toxic pharmaceuticals, were alleviated or even cured when the animal was put on a natural raw-fod diet. I've seen you make lots of blanket assertions, but I've yet to see you post one case history that you yourself have seen in your practice or in personal experience, where an animal got sick or died from a raw-food diet. Granted, maybe you have posted such an example, and I've missed it. What I have seen are many first-hand personal accounts, including my own, that have shown the opposite. And while there are some risks with almost any diet we choose, including the commercial crap that's out there, and even, as we have now seen, the premium brands, I feel a lot safer with a home prepared raw and cooked diet than I do with anything from a soulless megacorporation. Of course the big industries want us to think we're all too stupid and inept to prepare a balanced diet, whether for our pets or for ourselves - and they're very aggressive in pushing that mindset on the medical professions, because if everyone was increasingly self-sufficient and ate a natural diet, they'd miss out on their ill-gotten profits.

As to your repeated assertion that feeding raw is some kind of a monster health risk, that does not and has never made one iota of sense. I've asked you this directly before, and you've never answered it, so I'll ask it again (and I don't honestly expect a reply, but that's okay): How is cutting up a raw chicken breast to put in your dog's food bowl any more hazardous than cutting up a raw chicken breast to plop into a pan to fry up for yourself? Either way, you're handling raw meat (and yes, I know that all poultry carries Salmonella), you're cutting up raw meat with utensils, you're presumably using a chopping board, all of which would have to be washed and sterilized afterwards, whatever the end result of the meat is. Under your criteria, everyone who ever prepared a Thanksgiving turkey is generating a "public health risk."

Now, you're entitled to your personal and professional opinion, of course. You're not entitled to demonize those (including other vets!) whose personal experiences and research have shown the exact opposite of your assertions. You seem to feel that your educational background makes you so entitled, but it doesn't. I have plenty of respect for the veterinary profession (in fact, it's said that if you're going to be stuck on a desert island and have a choice of bringing with you a human doctor or a vet, you're better off with a vet, because a vet has to know about all bodily systems, whereas a human doctor usually specializes in one area at the expense of all others) - but that doesn't mean that others who haven't had your exact version of formal education, are uninformed or lack an educational background in related areas. I'm not going to get into a credentials pissing-contest, but I'll simply recommend that perhaps you shouldn't assume everyone else is uneducated and stupid.

You will note that nowhere in this post did I insult or attack you, as you have done in the past to me and others who share my views. I simply disagree. I think that it's unfortunate that you're trying to scare people away from a legitimate alternative to commercial pet food, but again, you have the right to state your viewpoint and your beliefs. The opposite viewpoint has the right to make its case as well. Those who are already in one "camp" or the other, will stay there, regardless of what you or I say. Those who are still searching for a solution that fits their lifestyle, and who read the posts on this topic, will ultimately make their own decision. I would hope it's a wise one.