We are worried about how torture pics will be viewed by Muslims when *this* is hitting the press?

[Fumesucker]

If this doesn't produce a meltdown in the Muslim press I don't know what will or what should for that matter.

This was sent to the President of the "Christian Nation" who actually used the word "crusade" in referring to retribution for 9/11.

[MountainLaurel]

1. Onward Christian soldiers

:puke:

[kentuck]

2. I think President Obama was thinking of his trip to Egypt...

when he made the decision not to release the photos. It would have made his trip much less comfortable.

[Fumesucker]

5. Well, he'll have this in his lap to explain now..

And we know he strongly supports the same religion, Christianity.

It's going to be an interesting meeting, watching Obama placate the Muslims without enraging the Christians.

Edited to add: I think this incident is egregious enough to require a direct Presidential apology.

Unforgivable rudeness for starters and incompetence at a level even I find hard to fathom.

Somebody looking at these things had to have known they were cultural nitroglycerin?

[stillcool]

10. I think he supports all religion...

or at least respects what people choose to believe in. As far as outraging the Christians..he does that by his mere presence.

[Fumesucker]

12. Do you think Obama should apologize?

On behalf of the United States?

In my mind these things are just unforgivable.

[Occam Bandage]

22. No, I don't believe

we should demand Obama apologize for an internal memo from Rumsfeld to Bush. I'm tired of people here expecting Obama to pay the political price for Bush's fuckups. Why would he apologize? "I'm very, very sorry that I did not infiltrate the Pentagon in 2003 and force Rumsfeld, at gunpoint, to not use religious quotes in top-secret internal briefings. Please forgive me."

[cascadiance]

27. The problem is they will now view him as a complicit apologist for Bushco...

... and therefore they feel that now that Obama has taken sides PROTECTING those that should be indicted and imprisoned, that he will need to answer for these other actions as well, even if he had no direct responsibility for them.

THAT is the reason why he should be releasing these photos, no longer using state secrets privilege to prevent exposure of their crimes, etc. He WILL be made to answer for these sorts of things, even if he shouldn't have to! That is also what Nancy Pelosi and Jane Harman are also learning from their COMPLICIT actions with these criminals, even if the criminals are trying to get them to take the blame for far more egregious actions than they should.

If you get in bed with these guys you'll get their fleas and pay the price later!

[Occam Bandage]

36. No, they won't. That's ridiculous.

The Arab world is largely quite pleased with Obama, though his decision to restart military tribunals has raised some ire, despite the fact that he has brought the tribunals in line with both American law and the Third Geneva Convention. As for the pictures? There's no evidence of any Mideast outrage that he hasn't released them; when it comes to tamping down outrage, it seems he made the wise call. And as for this thread? Nobody, but nobody, expects Obama to apologize for insensitive content in internal, top-secret memos written by Rumsfeld to Bush. To suggest that failure to apologize for those memos is "complicity" is absolutely fucking insane.

[cascadiance]

37. Try watching the MOSAIC reports on this on Link TV...

I would submit that the news media in the middle east are doing anything but ignoring them. They are talking about it quite a bit. I wouldn't use the domestic media as a barometer of whether people over there are "accepting" of what he's doing or not.

I think many of them (like myself and many other Dems) were really hopeful that things would change a lot with Obama taking over. I had a lot of questions about whether Obama was going to take necessary risks or not, but I was going to give him the benefit of the doubt. I'm STILL hoping he's holding back against a lot of internal corrupt opposition to play his cards at the right time, but each day we get more actions like this, I start wondering if he's doing that or he's just going along to get along, and isn't prepared to take any risks when the chips are down, that he WILL need to do at some point.

I still am not wanting to "shoot him down" like others, but I WILL make my feelings known that a lot of these actions I feel are unwise if we really want to fix the problems that exist now.

[stillcool]

29. A blanket apology for..

all that has come before?

[merh]

18. I think he was respecting the opinions of his military leaders

He has to show them respect for them to respect him, he is a man who seeks common ground and understanding. He was empathetic, concern for the troops is not a bad thing or something to be ashamed of.

[Badgerman]

32. Forgetting for the moment that He is Cmdr-in-Chief? They are to advise NOT lead. n/t

[merh]

35. A good leader listens to those who work for him

[Badgerman]

44. Listens yes. follows them blindly NO! n/t

[merh]

47. Respecting their opinions on the danger of those photos

is not following blindly.

[walldude]

3. Bible quotes on top secret war debriefings..

It's time to separate church and state for real. I mean it, this "Christian Nation" crap needs to stop now. Wasn't one of the main reasons the US was founded was to get away from this religious persecution?

[Divine Discontent]

6. exactly! and God doesn't want to be associated with a govt anyhow! ha eom

[walldude]

15. I'm pretty sure that God doesn't want to have anything to do with religion

either... Judging by the things done in his name I'm pretty certain that he's had enough of what they have done to his name.

[Divine Discontent]

4. as someone else stated - there's plenty of way to slander GOD & putting His words on a military doc

is one of them!

And yeah, they think the pics are bad - how about now the Muslim world hearing that our gov't peppered their military documents with (GULP) BIBLE VERSES!

Open the gate? They opened the gate to HELL! And by their opinion by using the verse about committing to God and your plans will succeed - well - I guess they weren't too committed to God, now were they?


Funny how they left out the one that says ----

Blessed are the peacemakers for THEY shall be called the children of GOD!

Amen

[Fumesucker]

7. They are not so fond of the Gospels..

I didn't notice anything from the Gospels on any of the docs but I was too enraged to really pay close attention.

[Divine Discontent]

16. haha.. exactly. I could only stomach a brief overview also. They are so offensive. eom

[Kalyke]

48. I noticed that first off, too.

I even went back and looked at every one of them trying to find the "Good News" and couldn't find a hint of Jesus, the Prince of Peace, in any of them.

Which reminds me of something I've always asked: Why do Christians want to post the Jewish 10 Commandments everywhere instead of posting the Christian Beatitudes? :shrug:

[Occam Bandage]

23. Not if they're Old Testament quotes.

The God of the OT demanded his Chosen People go to war with all their neighbors, and demanded that all wars end in complete and total genocide.

[Ghost in the Machine]

24. How do you slander a mythical being from a fairy tale?

:shrug:

[Divine Discontent]

41. I don't know? You tell me. Is this a riddle?

;)

[Kalyke]

54. Probably the same way you blow off a bigoted DUer who

isn't accepting of the beliefs of others, choosing instead to mock them.

:shrug:

[Bluerthanblue]

8. i'm almost positive i've seen this before-

not in the major media- but online years ago-

:shrug:

[Fumesucker]

9. It wouldn't surprise me..

I've seen so much crap in the last eight years that I can't begin to remember everything.

It kind of looks like something Bartcop might find.

[stillcool]

11. It says April of 03..

so I think you're right.

[walldude]

13. It's also marked top secret... not sure what the time frame is to allow

classified documents to be released.

[Bluerthanblue]

20. the document was classified top secret, but I'm not sure the image

and isaiah quote were.

I've surfed quite alot of places since 2000- very intently after the selection of 2000- Wish my old computer hadn't crashed- I saved several images on it.

I could be wrong- but it really seems like I've seen this before.

:hi:

[Fumesucker]

14. Now they speak of God's will..

[Solly Mack]

17. Didn't Bush call it a crusade?

http://www.csmonitor.com/2001/0919/p12s2-woeu.html

"On Sunday, Bush warned Americans that "this crusade, this war on terrorism, is going to take awhile."

[Fumesucker]

19. Oh yes, I remember that well.. n/t

[Solly Mack]

25. and now we know that memos were distributed in just that context

:(

[Occam Bandage]

21. If this is legitimate it is disturbing. Man, the Bush White House was fucked up.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Ah this was a CRUSADE

photos, shmotos... this will go well, really

[dustbunnie]

28. God propaganda is one of the most useful wartime/occupation tools.

It's been used by every nation including ours since forever. Look back at World War I and II. The idea of fighting God's war was probably far more openly exploited then than now even.

Gott Mit Uns style propaganda gets soldiers to fight and overcome their fears far better than actually telling them they're doing it for oil or whatever. You have a much better chance of getting them to go on suicide missions and kill others when there's eternal life waiting in heaven. The idea of death and nothingness isn't such a big seller.

[Fumesucker]

30. I actually "turned" a moderate conservative once with that belt buckle..

They took a look at it and I had them run the phrase "gott mit uns" through babelfish

It isn't often you get a conservative to just shut up and admit you're correct.

[dustbunnie]

34. I use it all the time. It's all "Gott Mit Uns" propaganda.

I don't know how to post pics but look at these American posters from World War II. The religiosity of it all was so openly exploited.

http://digital.library.unt.edu/permalink/meta-dc-159:1

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/album/showphoto.php?photo=12012

http://history1900s.about.com/library/photos/blywwiip115.htm

[redqueen]

49. "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully

as when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal

[Fumesucker]

51. Good one...

Thanks for your contribution, Pascal was a brilliant man.

[Bluerthanblue]

31. I would think this would have been pretty inflamatory: --

(can't link the photo- it's worth seeing and reading)

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1107-02.htm

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Senator]

38. K&R

[Kablooie]

39. You're probably right. This hits right at the heart of Muslim fears. Much more than torture.

This could easily be interpreted as a Christian desire to eliminate the Muslim faith.
Whew.

[Fumesucker]

42. Hell, *I* think that some Christians think that way..

I know these fuckers too well, I've lived among them too damn long, nothing whatsoever is beyond them.

By far the easiest interpretation is the one you put forth, a Christian desire to do away with Islam.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

40. I remember when Bush used the word "crusade"...

Talking heads on TV scrambled to say he "didn't mean to say crusade".

[Fumesucker]

43. I think it was a Freudian slip..

Bush let go what he was really thinking at that moment.

He thinks of himself as the avenging angel of the Christian God.

[spanone]

45. the george bu$h* theocracy war

[Snazzy]

46. Guardian: George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq'

George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq'

President told Palestinians God also talked to him about Middle East peace

Ewen MacAskill

Friday 7 October 2005

George Bush has claimed he was on a mission from God when he launched the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, according to a senior Palestinian politician in an interview to be broadcast by the BBC later this month.

Mr Bush revealed the extent of his religious fervour when he met a Palestinian delegation during the Israeli-Palestinian summit at the Egpytian resort of Sharm el-Sheikh, four months after the US-led invasion of Iraq in 2003.

One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."

Mr Bush went on: "And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. And, by God, I'm gonna do it."

....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa

[Snazzy]

50. William G. Boykin, remember him

Wonder if he's the powerpoint guy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_G._Boykin

From April 1998 to February 2000, he served as the Commanding General, U.S. Army Special Forces Command (Airborne) at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. From March 2000-2003, he was the Commanding General, United States Army John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center, Fort Bragg, N.C. In June 2003, he was appointed Deputy Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence under Dr. Stephen Cambone, Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence.

...

He has gained notoriety for his Christian Fundamentalist views over the last few years and some public remarks. Boykin is a born-again Christian, who has cast the "War on Terror" in Biblical terms. A Pentagon investigation concluded in 2004 that he had violated regulations by failing to explain these remarks were not made in an official capacity.

Boykin achieved wide-spread media coverage for his statements that appeared to frame the War on Terror in religious terms, first broadcast on NBC News, October 15, 2003 <12>. William Arkin,<13> military analyst for NBC-TV News, was the source of the video and audiotapes of Boykin. The following day the Los Angeles Times ran a piece on Boykin. Amongst several quotes, the LA Times article revealed Boykin giving a speech about hunting down Osman Atto in Mogadishu: "He went on CNN and he laughed at us, and he said, 'They'll never get me because Allah will protect me. Allah will protect me.' Well, you know what? I knew that my God was bigger than his. I knew that my God was a real God and his was an idol."

...

On 10 April 2008, Boykin spoke at Epicenter 2008, a conference in Israel hosted by Joel C. Rosenberg. His closing statement made a large round of applause:

We as believers have been promised that we will spend an eternity with God. Last Saturday I was doing a men's conference in Fredricksburg, Virginia and I was praying during the worship service and something dawned on me and it was the Holy Spirit speaking to me. And the Holy Spirit said, "this is what I want you to share with My men today", and I'm going to share it with you and this is what it is: One day, we're going to stand before the gates of Heaven. Some of us want to be able to walk up there in a white robe and we want to sing Abba Father and Amazing Grace and we want to say to the Lord, "I worshiped You." But I want you to think about this: Heres the way I want to enter the gates of Heaven. I want to come skidding in there on all fours. I want to be slipping and sliding and I want to hit the gates of heaven with a bang. And when I stand up and I stand before Christ, I want there to be blood on my knees and my elbows. I want to be covered with mud. And I want to be standing there with a ragged breast plate of righteousness. And a spear in my hand. And I want to say, "Look at me, Jesus. I've been in the battle. I've been fighting for you." Ladies and gentlemen, put your armor on and get into battle. God bless you.

....

(note how that mirrors some of the GQ quotes exactly)

Wiki also briefly notes he was a facilitator in the torture and Hersh's death squads. Crusades indeed.

[Fumesucker]

53. Oh yes, I remember Boykin..

Another rock, another worm.

[Fumesucker]

52. Little did he know that Rummy was sneaking subliminalable messages into his briefings..

When you talk to god it's known as prayer, when god talks to you it's known as schizophrenia.