I Agree With Merit Pay And I Don't See What's So Damn Hard About Determining Who Is A Good Teacher

[mudesi]

We all had good teachers and we all had bad teachers when we were in school. We all knew who the good ones were and we all knew who the bad ones were. It wasn't all that difficult. The good ones were the ones who genuinely cared about us, the ones who helped us get our grades up, the ones who inspired us, the ones who made it fun for us to learn.

The bad ones were the ones who didn't care. They went through the motions. They didn't plan their lessons and they didn't know how to pass their knowledge on to us, if they even had the knowledge to begin with, which we wouldn't know because they didn't know how to teach. They couldn't control the classroom. We didn't learn anything and we didn't want to learn.

I don't understand what's so friggin controversial about this. This is a no brainer. Every profession has its performance reviews. There is nothing new or wrong or weird about giving a teacher a performance review and paying the good ones for the hard work that they do. Merit pay would attract good teachers into the profession.

What is the problem?

[ananda]

1. No problem at all if..

.. you buy into assembly line schooling
by numbers and test scores.

[Donnachaidh]

3. and the potential of cliques running the show on who gets *merit*

That's another slippery slope with this nonsense.

[midnight]

2. I think that smaller classrooms are more important in retaining

good teachers.

[SheilaT]

12. The core problem is that we

collectively don't fund our public schools adequately.

I decided to move my two sons from the very good local public schools to an even better private secular school when they were in 7th and 3rd grade. On a visit back to the elementary school they'd attended, one of the older son's teachers asked about class size at the new school, and when I told her it was 15, she got a look of awe and envy on her face. And this was a good school in a good neighborhood with middle-class parents who mostly made sure their kids did the homework and so on. But the class size there was more like 25-30 at that school, and I could see a huge difference at the private school.

The reason we moved the boys was that the older one had been bullied, and I was warned that sending him on to the middle school (7-8) was not a good idea, because the bullying would be worse. The change to a much smaller k-12 school, total enrollment under 600, was wonderful. There was no bullying of my kid, who was very small for his age (looked at least three years younger than his age), who was totally bald because he had an auto-immune disorder called alopecia areata which causes hair loss, and undiagnosed Asperger's. He was now in a place where no one seemed to care if he looked different or was small, his academic prowess was admired, and there was simply a lot more control of the kids because of the smaller student-teacher ratio.

I understand quite clearly that the public schools have to accept everyone. That's all the more reason why we need to fund them so that class sizes are small, there are appropriate services for all.

[struggle4progress]

95. A classroom of ten or twelve is really optimal in secondary school or the

early college years. In larger classes, it's simply impossible to give students much individual attention

[Joe Fields]

98. how small do you want?

Switzerland has the smallest average ratio of student/teacher at 18. The avg. in the U.S. is 25. That's fifteen students smaller than the forty student /teacher ratio I had when I went to H.S., and ranks 6th in industrialized nations.

[Fire1]

144. Joe, that's the avg. it's SUPPOSED TO BE, NOT what IS.

[muntrv]

4. I have no problem with that.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[navarth]

6. I think one of the objections is that

there are situations where the amount of dedication of the teacher doesn't make a difference.

My wife recently retired from a lifetime of preschool special ed teaching, and it was such a hard job I thought it would kill her. But what criterion would one use to show she got better results? She was extremely dedicated, but how do you measure that effect with those poor little kids?

I don't know all the facts about Obama's plan, but this strikes me as a possible exception.

[Fresh_Start]

15. the same thing occurs in other merit pay environments

sometimes you get stuck with the projects from hell....and your merit pay isn't great that year
Another time, it seems like you're in a dream and everything is great....and your merit pay will be larger.
Over time, it works out.

There may be widget counting jobs somewhere but I've never had one. Evaluating performance is never simply or easy.

[KamaAina]

34. But in this case, the "project from hell" means teaching in a struggling school

which is exactly where the good teachers are needed, not in wealthy suburban schools, where the opportunities for them to get the merit pay would be better.

[Canuckistanian]

40. Right you are

It's a case of "them has has, gets"

They should give merit pay to teachers that try to succeed in "failing schools", the ones that DON'T score high on standardized testing.

[Fresh_Start]

41. Merit pay shouldn't be judged nationally or statewide

it should be against a peer group.
The teachers in that school compared to other teachers in that same school or at least similar schools.

No reasonable system would be as simplistic as you are imagining it would be.

[Luminous Animal]

49. Indeed. Let's pit teacher against teacher!

The only time where teachers have come board with merit pay is when 1) teachers have benefited as a team, 2) they wrested a lot more freedom to control the curriculum, teaching techniques, and classroom environment.

[Fresh_Start]

53. all professionals are judged compared to other professionals

just because you're assessed compared to your peers doesn't mean you bring a knife or gun to the showdown or sabotage someone else.
Its a fact of life.

If you think teachers aren't judged compared to one another, ask parents or students. And I most seriously hope and pray that the adminstrators do it everyday.

[Luminous Animal]

88. What you are doing is directly pitting teacher against teacher

in a profession that relies on cooperation from their peers. As do police officers and firefighters. One of the best reform ideas that unions have been promoting for decades is team teaching and co-administration. Team teaching appeals to educators because they recognize that their profession would be enhanced by a variety of ideas and cooperation would ensure that the best ideas practiced communally would be have more of an impact on a larger population of students. Administrations reject it out of hand because it dilutes their authority.

[Fresh_Start]

141. so in your belief other professions don't need to cooperate

with their peers in order to perform their duties?

You are completely wrong.

[Johonny]

147. I agree

[Fresh_Start]

48. just out of curiosity are the base salaries the same

between the struggling school and the wealthy suburban school?

I'd guess no.
If there salaries aren't coordinated, why would you imagine that there merit pay would be coordinated?

[proud2BlibKansan]

145. No the base salaries are probably not the same

So there goes your plan. :)

[Fresh_Start]

163. actually, no, there goes your objection

because your the one who believed that the money from the struggling school district would go to the wealthy district.
I said the merit pay should be among peers.

[Hippo_Tron]

103. Which is why Obama wants to pay teachers more to teach in struggling schools

[Fresh_Start]

7. I've always worked in a merit pay environment

I agree with you. Its not a poison pill: its an opportunity.

Here's a compromise. Allow merit pay.

If all the teachers don't want the merit pay, they can throw it into a common pool and have equal shares.
If they want the merit pay, they take it and don't participate in the common pool.
I think the answer about merit pay will become self-evident.

[Sabriel]

8. Because it's not so easy to quantify "good"

And because if the only measure of "good" is performance on a standardized test, many teachers will make sure students learn only what's on the test.

NCLB testing, for example, has greatly reduced social studies and science curriculum in many elementary classrooms, because those areas are not on the test. So why on earth would I teach it, if it takes time away from me improving test scores in order to be considered a "good" educator?

[mudesi]

11. Yes It Is Easy. I Just Gave Several Examples

God. What a load of bullshit. If students can tell who the good teachers are, why can't anyone else?

Come on. You must have had a good teacher when you were in school. How did you know he/she was a good teacher?

[rwheeler31]

30. Did all the students agree with you?

[Luminous Animal]

Oh yes, let's make teaching a popularity contest!

Some of my best teachers, that is, those from which I learned the most were also those that many students tried to avoid because of their tough reputation. In my high school we had two chemistry teachers, everyone tried to transfer to Mr. Brown's class because he was likable. Unfortunately, some of us were "stuck" with acerbic Mr. Balducci. It wasn't until I matured that I realized that Mr. Balducci was a very good teacher.

[Posteritatis]

109. "The students" generally can't

With one major exception, I couldn't really point at which of my HS teachers were good (versus merely being ones I liked) until a couple of years into university. Likewise for which of my HS teachers were bad (again, with one exception, who we spent a year trying to get fired).

Some of the ones I considered the best ones in the building were despised by most of the students, mainly because students consider "easy" and "good" to be synonymous. That tendency's even worse in university, where all of my favorite instructors were hated by most of the student body for not being easy As.

Equating "merit" with popularity among the students is an extraordinarily stupid idea.

[Lyric]

130. ROFL!

In your world, the highest-paid teachers will be witty, funny, and young enough to be considered "hot." They will be the teachers who make jokes about the students who stink of cigarette smoke instead of turning their asses in ("Hey Smokey--did you finally make it to class?" said a former "popular" teacher of mine, every time one particular girl came to class late, stinking of smoke, when he SHOULD have been calling her effing parents.)

If we make extra pay dependent upon students "liking" a teacher, the school system will go under in a year. Just wait until the little angels find out that THEY control how much their teachers get paid. Yeeeaahh...we can totally trust children to be fair and sensible judges of what's in their own best interests. Honestly, if anyone actually BELIEVES that, then why do we bother with parenting in the first place?

:eyes:

[eppur_se_muova]

161. The "good" teachers make the students feel good, whether they learn anything or not.

Try teaching an unpopular (i.e. difficult) subject and you'll see just how much student evaluations are really worth. The students' favorite teachers are always the ones that teach "fun" subjects, particularly elective subjects, like art or music. If you teach science or math, you're lucky to be the favorite of a small number of bright students, but of no one else.

If students knew enough for their opinions to carry that much weight, they wouldn't need to be taking the classes in the first place. Such evaluations should be left to people with enough experience and education for their opinions to be informed ones.

You seem to believe that "students know who the good teachers are" as an article of faith, which I do not for a moment share. Students can usually spot an *exceptionally* good or bad teacher, but that's about it. They are not mature, fully formed individuals, which is *why* they are in school in the first place.

[mopinko]

83. teaching to the test and high stakes testing are things that obama is

AGAINST. they are not in this proposal.

[Posteritatis]

110. What's in their place?

(Serious question, as a Canadian who is putting more mental cycles on following his province's educational system at the moment.)

I'm having trouble figuring out a way to measure teachers that isn't standardized testing, which I also think is utterly broken as a concept because it will result in teachers teaching to the test and nothing else. So how are they going to measure teachers' "merit?"

[Fire1]

152. Ultimately, it will come down to 'testing,' as a measure of

progress by comparison of scores over a period of time. Duncan also suggested a measure to determine progress per grade level.

[mopinko]

157. it is only dividing them into the good half and the bad half.

all these teachers get evaluated. simple stuff like their own attendance. control of the classroom. continuing education. dedication to the school. cooperation with other teachers. relationships with the kids. reports from parents.
i could go on. the shit that other people get evaluated for at their jobs. if this was a plan to reward the top teacher in a school, and give them a 50% raise, it would be hard. but the proposal is to do the opposite.

[anneboleyn]

108. My husband and I are university professors and we know it is by no means easy to determine this.

This is in fact extremely subjective, especially at the university level. Students are biased for many reasons and other faculty members are also and especially deeply biased. The "evidence" -- student evaluations and other professors observing a class -- are by no means objective sources of information. "Poor" evaluations can be read in a positive light: "Professor X made us work incredibly hard and we learned a lot but we really, really didn't like it." Also, faculty committees can decide to support a friend who is up for tenure while sending down a controversial colleague by reading a file in an uncharitable way.

Professors are hobbled in schools that overvalue student evaluations (keep in mind these are the opinions of often sheltered and pampered eighteen year olds) because they learn "to teach to the evaluations."

[av8rdave]

9. Devil's advocate question

And no, I'm not a teacher.

Are there going to be mandatory percentages? In other words, will the standards dictate that a certain %age of teachers will/will not make the "acceptable" cut?

I'm all for making sure out teachers are competent (I take a great deal of professional pride that, in my profession, I have to prove my worth on a regular basis).

However, I believe huge potential exists for nepotism, favoritism, quotas, etc. exists.

[rwheeler31]

10. If you cannot see the problem I am sorry your education

was not excellent.

[mudesi]

14. Sounds To Me More Like A Bunch Of Bad Teachers On DU Making Excuses

Why don't you tell me what the problem is?

[EFerrari]

"Because when we talk to you like grown ups, you don't listen."

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NYC_SKP]

24. Not a bunch, just a couple.

And they aren't necessarily bad teachers, just confused and not reading up on things, imo.

:patriotL

[Hello_Kitty]

35. I think we have a lot of shit-ass parents here

Who want to blame their incompetence on teachers.

[EFerrari]

44. There's always a group of people who go for blaming individuals

for systemic problems. I call those people Republicans because that is their strategy. If you focus all your attention on Mrs. Ferrari then maybe you don't have to deal with the whole district struggling with underfunding and misc. right wing incursions.

The modern Republican party is all about destroying communities so they can pick people off. To buy into that bs is a shame, really. That's why they demonized "Kumbaya and holding hands" because as soon as we band together, they're screwed.

[Hello_Kitty]

47. It's why they valorize the rugged individual

But it's more like "bailouts for me, personal responsibility for thee".

[EFerrari]

50. Right. Rugged rules for everyone else, individual for them.

And that's why all their mass meetings are slobbering people facing a stage and not people talking to each other. You can't run an authoritarian scam in a real community.

[Fire1]

155. WhooooHooooo!!! Stop telling the truth!!!!

[rwheeler31]

38. We are dealing with children not numbers.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Joe Fields]

100. I'm thinking I wouldn't have wanted my son to be taught by any of them.

[proud2BlibKansan]

148. And I'll bet some of them are thinking

they are relieved not to have you as a parent.

[Odin2005]

150. I agree. Mediocre teachers defending their positions and seniority.

[Riley18]

13. Teachers do have performance reviews every year. I am a teacher and work

for a paycheck just like everyone else. How will merit be decided? It would be nice to finally get paid for attending workshops or something else we can actually control. I think when merit pay is mentioned that the assumption will be pay for student test scores. That type of "merit" pay will never work for a variety of reasons. One reason is that many teachers do not actually teach a tested subject. Another reason is that teachers do not get to choose which students they will teach. Good teachers work together for the good of the students. What will happen to us if we have to work against each other to pay our bills?

[mudesi]

18. How About With The Examples I Gave?

The teachers who inspire. The teachers who plan their lessons well. The teachers who genuinely help their students succeed. The teachers that we all knew were good teachers when we were in school.

[rwheeler31]

Do you want to go home with the teacher and count the

overtime?

[eridani]

126. What about the ones we hated because they weren't very nice?

Some of those were topnotch.

[Lorien]

112. Merit pay is additional pay on top of your regular salary, from what

I understand. Personally I'd welcome the chance at getting a bit more money for the extra effort.

[ulysses]

16. thank god you've put it all in perspective for us.

:eyes:

[mudesi]

19. Thank God You Can't Say A Single Thing Other Than To Post A Rolling Eye Emoticon (NM)

[ulysses]

21. the op didn't seem to require more.

Sorry.

[mudesi]

25. Guess It Means I'm Right Then

:hi:

[ulysses]

28. believe as you will.

:)

[mudesi]

32. Do You Have Anything To Say, Or Do You Just Want To Keep Kicking My Thread? (nm)

[ulysses]

37. I'm happy to keep kicking the thread

if it means I get to keep ridiculing the idea. :D

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mudesi]

69. When They Have Nothing To Say, They Call You A Troll

Mr. 16 whole posts....
:eyes:

[schlarmie]

74. OOOOH,, ouch, that hurt....weep weep N/T

[Squatch]

78. Really...you should knock it off. You're being annoying.

[Marrah_G]

132. Squatch!

Good to see you posting! I hope this means you are home safe and sound with your family.

[Squatch]

136. Hey-ya!

Nah...I'm back in Afghanistan. I was, however, back at home last week for R&R, which was great! Got to see my daughter take her first steps!!!

Good news is, though, that we're past the 1/2-way point. I figure that we have about 5 more months of being over here. I can do that standing on my head. ;)

[Marrah_G]

137. So glad you got home, even if briefly.

Stay safe- Keep in touch and come home with some great stories and pictures. 5 months isn't so long.

I know you must have been thrilled to see your baby and you didn't miss her first steps!

~hugs~ stay safe my friend.

[CRK7376]

139. Congratulations on 1/2

R&R is critical and always fun to be home when the kids are growing like weeds...Stay safe from one who was there with CJSOTF-A in TK and DR back in '02.

[Squatch]

142. R&R was great...travel, not so much.

4 days to get home, 6 to get back. I especially enjoyed hanging around BAF where the threat is low enough so that the whole place is a salute zone but high enough so that everybody has to walk around (while wearing reflective belts) with the weapons in an amber status. WTF?

I work with some SOTF guys (ODA) here...they look like a bunch of thugs with their beards, but man are they good people. Absolutely trustworthy folks.

[CRK7376]

151. BTDT

We called it "relaxed grooming standards" and it was a hoot for the Army to let me grow a beard....Whenever we rolled back in the wire the FOBITS would howl at our appearance....I hated BAF, chow was good there, but catching a rotater south was painful. Reflective belts, wearing headgear and saluting ah.... the reminders of life back in Mother Army...

[Squatch]

159. Yeah...3 days at BAF is too much

dragging my kit back and forth to make every roll call for space A flights KAF sucks. I finally turned on the charm with one of the cute Russian women they have working the ticket counter to squeeze me onto an ISAF flight.

We have our fair share of Fobbits too...the USAF folks down here are prohibited from engaging in anything that closely resembles tactical work, so they take that to mean that they can wear PTs all day, every day. It's all I can do not to "counsel" one of them that PTs with a 9mm in a shoulder holster does not constitute an appropriate uniform in Afgh. You'd think they had no idea there was a war going on. LOL

[Luminous Animal]

17. Because the problem lies with the system...

not the teachers. The right wing is, yet again, successfully scapegoating the actors that have zero power to affect change. Those actors being, of course, the teachers. The teachers have no say in the curriculum implemented, the books used, the test administered, class size, parent contact, or sanctions against poor student conduct. And yet, over and over again, they are asked to shoulder the entire responsibility for the failure of our school system.

Merit pay is a distraction. It moves the focus from school boards and administrators who actually invent and control the system onto the shoulders of those who perform the work but are constrained by the limits of the system..

It would be like blaming Ford auto-line employees for the design and engineering failures of the Pinto.

[EFerrari]

22. Thank you!

:applause:

[mudesi]

23. But It's Not About Blame Or Scapegoating

Merit pay is about rewarding the good teachers, not penalizing the bad ones. The bad ones will still get their paycheck. The good ones will get a bigger one because they deserve it. I must again ask, what is the problem?

[ulysses]

26. of course it is.

[EFerrari]

31. If you seriously believe that the answer to 30 frigging years

of Republican predations on our school system is some bogus hamfisted merit pay decision, then you are simple.

If you want to fix the food chain, you don't start in the MIDDLE which is what merit pay, a stupid idea that has been discarded many timed, does.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

121. If you think that Obama's education plan is

just some bogus hamfisted merit pay decision, then I'd have to say you are the simple one since you obviously have not read much about his plan

[Luminous Animal]

36. The problem is is that you are suggesting

a solution that does nothing to deal with the problem.

It is a feel-good reaction to deeply systematic problems caused by administrators and school boards.

You are asking the workers to bear the brunt of blame for the disaster their bosses designed.

[Luminous Animal]

64. Merit pay is about rewarding teachers who

are skilled at teaching students to do well on a standardized test. It been well established that some students have an aptitude for standardized tests and others do not and thus, results of standardized testing is a piss-poor assessment for separating the well-taught from the poorly taught. That is why some universities have, in recent years, left off SAT scores from admission requirements. So what you would be rewarding is whether or not a teacher had a class room full of good test takers.

[Lorien]

76. Did Obama say that standardized tests would be used? In the schools I

attended merit pay was based partially on student evaluations of the teachers. The OP is right; people know who the good and lousy teachers are. Why not reward those that go the extra mile? Standardized tests help no one and that has already been established, but I don't think that that's how Obama was planning to measure their performance.

[Luminous Animal]

91. Ahaha!!!!

How about we, as communities and a nation, go the extra mile of overhauling a defective system before we put the entire burden of "reform" upon a class of workers who have zero input into how they are required to succeed at their profession.

[Lorien]

111. I don't think he is putting the entire burden of reform on teachers

he's talking about REWARDING THE BEST OF THE BEST. WTF is wrong with that? In EVERY profession there is SOMEONE who is at the top of their game, and everyone around those few know just who they are.

[Luminous Animal]

118. Because the quality and condition of a teacher's raw materials

varies so widely from year to year that there is no way to make an objective assessment.

[CRK7376]

138. That's part of what

has always bothered me with merit pay. I never ever had control of my incoming students and their family life or status etc...Too many variables and what of the teachers that don't have to teach something that is tested yearly? Or those that are tested yearly? I don't like merit pay and never will. You got extra money, through it in everybody's paycheck.....

[tangent90]

153. Seems pretty obvious you weren't teaching English.

"through"?

[NYC_SKP]

29. True, and an excellent analogy....

Though rewarding Ford employees who are more productive or find cost saving techniques with a raise would still be a good thing, and analogous to merit pay.

[Luminous Animal]

42. You can't be any more productive

than the line allows. A teacher cannot has little control of the outcome when constrained by a mandated curriculum.

[NYC_SKP]

58. Where I see mandated adopted texts used and timelines for implementation...

...I see no room for innovation, I see sad teachers.

[prairierose]

54. Thank you LA for articulating the biggest problem...

with beginning to discuss this. So many want to make this very simple. Unfortunately, the system is complicated and there are so many involved in the process.

I have believed for many years that the biggest problem with our schools is that our culture does not value education or those who are educated. Until that changes, nothing else can change.

[snappyturtle]

27. Well, I think the point is that good teachers can be lost with merit pay.

The teachers you described should have been weeded out by the school district. Even though I was a tenured teacher, I do not agree with tenure.

NCLB has shown us what comes by way of teaching toward test results. The tests themselves, if uniform in context, would not accurately measure their objectives throughout the nation. Remember when Stanford-Binet Intelligence tests were biased toward Caucasians and had to be altered after years of use?! Merit based on what could well be poorly designed tests if compiled quickly to put the merit pay program into effect could cull out those we want to keep. If nothing else, I hope that much thought is given before instituting a merit pay system after all, do we want teachers who only teach to guarantee good test results?

[knitter4democracy]

33. You didn't all agree, though.

There were the one or two that everyone agreed about (in our h.s., it was the Spanish teacher with Alzheimers), and then there was massive disagreement after that. Think about the teacher who really helped you understand something--did every single kid at your school think s/he was the greatest or at least really good?

Teachers have strengths and weaknesses, and a good principal takes advantages of the strengths when scheduling for the year. My first calc teacher in high school was amazing. He taught with such clarity and patience that I felt like I actually understood what was going on. He'd ticked off the principal at some point, though, and so spent much of the day teaching remedial math classes, which was definitely not his strong point. People could hear him screaming at the students pretty often, and the kids deliberately taunted him. The head of the math dept. got all the honors and advanced classes (except for calc, which even she admitted that she couldn't teach), and the honors and advanced math kids hated her, saying she repeated everything too often (the mark of a good remedial teacher).

So, according to you, the calc teacher would be bad and wouldn't get merit pay all because he was being punished and given classes that weren't what he should've been teaching.

When I taught, I had kids who thought I was the best English teacher ever (some who even tried to get the principal to re-hire me after she let me go with a drop in enrollment only to have to turn around and hire someone else). I had students who thought I was the meanest, worst bitch alive. Which kids would you believe?

[BlooInBloo]

39. They're just making shit up....

As a way to avoid any accountability.

So long as the measuring stick is imperfect in ANY way, they will rally to that line.

Fuck merit pay, I say. Quadruple their salaries, make the environment workable, and remove barriers to the profession for non-education majors. Then let nature take its course.

[Fresh_Start]

71. I was going to vehemently disagree with you

until I read your statement to remove barriers to the profession for non-education majors.

Personally, I don't think the salaries should be quadrupled. I think the salaries should be set to a nice middle class salary in the area where they teach. The last thing we need is for teachers to become as out-of-touch as the wall-streeters.

[BlooInBloo]

79. :) The 4x pay is to buy off the dim-bobs currently inhabiting teacher-space...

... to pave the way for the bright people we would be better off having there.

[Fresh_Start]

81. why do you think the dim-bulbs inhabiting teacher space

would leave their cushy spots if they were being paid 4x as much as they are getting right now?

[BlooInBloo]

84. They gotta retire someday, attrition due to lack of advancement...

or actually becoming smart-bobs. That kinda thing.


EDIT: And with the monetary attraction, good work environment, and lowered barriers to entry, the wanna be new-dim-bobs will be hired in lower and lower numbers.

[Fresh_Start]

85. why would you want to pay them 4x until they reach retirement?

Offer them a one time buyout with a limited time offer

[BlooInBloo]

86. Cost of bringing about substantial change, that the entrenched dim-bobbery will go along with.

EDIT: Not a bad idea, your buyout offer - but we can't have TOO many of them leave at once. We gotta sail on the ship WHILE we're repairing it, after all.

[Joe Fields]

115. Quadruple people's pay? Do you know what the average salary is

for a teacher? 50,000 dollars. I think they're paid plenty.

[last_texas_dem]

43. Obviously we don't "all know" or all agree on what makes a good or bad teacher.

If that was the case, "merit" pay wouldn't be a controversial issue.

[schlarmie]

45. Enabeling Parents

who do not hold their child accountable. Granted there are lousey teachers, lousey parents, lousey doctors, politicians, whatever profession you opt to discuss. However, you can teach your child that you can learn in spite of an occasional "bad" teacher and teach that child to overcome adversity, which is a useful survival skill.

I am a retired Assistant Principal at a Middle School and I can tell you that there are very loud vocal parents who do not have the spine to stand up to their acting out children. Educating children should be a partnership/relationship between the educator/adult and parents/adults. A teacher might have your child, plus or minus 30 more, an hour a day, parents have them every day, all their life, and children are very good at playing the emotional blackmail card on busy overburdened parents.

Your experience is not necessarily universal. Some disengaged parents treat the education system as socialized daycare and are not engaged in their child's life.

Remember, single simplistic answers to complicated issues are necessarily WRONG.

OK, flame away.

[kwassa]

90. Educational values begin at home, like all values.

this is not factored into student performance, however.

[norepubsin08]

46. If you agree with merit pay, then you need to let the

teachers pick their students and also kick out the ones who don't produce. That's why private schools score so much better on tests...they can control their gene pool. Otherwise a teacher is going to say: fuck every kid who might put me at risk for my job!!!!

[BlooInBloo]

57. My raises are merit-based, and I don't get to pick my projects...

or the people I work with.

Why should it be different for teachers?

[norepubsin08]

59. kids are too variable

unless you have total control over them AND their parents, you can't predict what the little fuckers will do...if you go to that system, teachers will just start to look at kids as either commodities or liabilities.

[BlooInBloo]

63. I don't control what the people I work with do either.

[Luminous Animal]

92. Who said that you did?

But I really going to convince me that the professionals that you work with have not attained a recognized standard of expertise?

[EFerrari]

68. It isn't different for teachers, they're evaluated all the time. AND at the same time

teachers, good teachers, every day make a hundred accommodations to facilitate their students who are all different and all need something fine tuned to what they need to succeed.

And most of those accommodations are invisible.

Who else does that? Shrinks don't. Doctors don't. Spouses don't. I can't think of any other profession where it is your job to try to facilitate who someone else is X 30 every day. :shrug:

[Luminous Animal]

72. I work on many projects

and I do have a level of expectation that the people I work will be working with are fully formed adults and have attained a level of expertise that is required to complete the job.

Teachers work with children and the maturity levels and intelligence levels vary wildly from student to student and from classroom to classroom. Some children will learn how to read at four, another at 7. For some, algebra will come easy at 10. Other's will be unable to grasp it until their teens. Some will be homeless and hungry and ill. Some will have parents going through a divorce or be dealing with terrifically horrible domestic problems.

Sure adults will be having personal problems as well, but they are adults.

[Joe Fields]

116. Nope. Deal with it. Deal with the parents, inspire the students,

and find a way to succeed within the framework that the school administration has set up. You want utopia. No one has it, not in any industry.

[U4ikLefty]

119. Tell that to the police when they complain that they are underfunded

and understaffed in a crime-ridden city. Throw that "utopia" line their way & see how they react Mr. one-liner.

Maybe we should give merit pay to cops who make more arrests, or come up with creative ways to enforce the law.

I know, maybe they can "inspire" the criminals...lol

[tonysam]

51. Short Answer: Because Schools Aren't Businesses

It's not the same as the private sector. End of story.

[babylonsister]

80. Yes they are. Someone has to run them and set the rules. If you

think schools have been run solely for the benefit of children, how did they fail so miserably?

[Mnemosyne]

55. Let the students decide. n/t

[KamaAina]

56. The problem is that the kids, or parents, probably wouldn't be the ones making the determination

We all knew who the good ones were and we all knew who the bad ones were.

Indeed we did.

Now if parents (and maybe students at the secondary level; grade-schoolers might tend to rate down teachers who disciplined them :-) ) were on a committee to determine which teachers got the merit pay, rather than just going by standardized test scores, you might very well be on to something.

[mudesi]

70. And I'm Not Saying Kids And Parents Should Make It

All I'm saying is that the idea that it's somehow impossible to determine who is or is not a good teacher is complete bullshit. I don't think standardized testing is the way to go, frankly. But how about giving teachers the same kind of performance review that just about everybody else in any other job gets? What does it take for a principal or an administrator to recognize who is or is not a good teacher?

[KamaAina]

75. Adding parents to the process would have as a salutary side effect

increasing parental involvement, which is the best predictor of school success.

[kwassa]

94. Parents can have an extremely negative effect, as well.

There are many who are not even close to objective about their own children. There are also many, like many noters here, who consider themselves expert on education although they have no training in the area and no work experience in the field.

There are political wars that go on on PTAs that are as ruthless as corporate takeovers.

[kwassa]

93. A teacher is largely a small independent businessman.

The problem with performance reviews is that performance in teaching is hard to measure in many ways. A principal does not see about 98% of what each individual teacher does. A teacher works alone, usually, not seeing another adult for almost all of the day.

There is also no teacher that is universally good for all students, no matter how talented they are. Different students are motivated by different things and different personalities, and there is no one size that fits all.

I think merit pay is a great idea IF it can be done realistically and fairly, but HOW to do it is a difficult problem to answer. Asking the students isn't good enough. The teacher has responsibilities and requirements the students never see and may never care about. What is important to students in a teacher, and what is important to parents and administrators can be quite different.

[eridani]

127. Really? So in order to avoid making their "customers" unhappy--

--they should never give any bad grades?

[CRK7376]

143. You Absolutely hit the

nail on the head with this answer.

[Fire1]

160. I think it's been pointed out numerous times, on this thread alone

that teachers are evaluated throughout the school year by administrators and appreciate the feed back that it provides.

[JackDragna]

62. Here's the problem with your argument.

I would agree students generally know who the best teachers are. I teach, and I know who is top dog among my colleagues. The problem with merit pay is coming up with a reliable metric to measure teacher quality. Given the huge number of variables that go into determining student performance, it'd be nigh well impossible to come up with a system to give merit raises and wouldn't subject the schools/school systems to lawsuits from teachers who felt slighted. The things I personally look for in a good teacher are easy to spot, but would be hard to prove to a review board.

[rwheeler31]

65. That was fun, take a break , then on to the next nut wad.

[ulysses]

66. I just sprained something...

:rofl:

[schlarmie]

73. FIST BUMP

:fistbump:

[Laelth]

77. Merit pay is a bad idea.

I am sorry that my otherwise awesome President is using this excuse to score cheap political points.

:dem:

-Laelth

[babylonsister]

82. I think it can be subjective. How will they determine which teacher is

better? Who makes that decision? What if you are a special ed teacher? Do you weigh the value of the teacher by how much the child learns?

Has any of this been hashed out?

[FLyellowdog]

89. Great question...n/t

[Squatch]

87. I am considering a post-Army career as a teacher

and finding a teaching job in which I can distinguish myself from my peers and gain higher compensation or promotions by doing so is pretty high on my list.

Every professional, whether they be teachers or doctors, should strive for higher levels of productivity and commensurate benefits in return. And every professional organization, whether they be schools or hospitals, should foster work environments that encourage their employees to strive for higher productivity and benefits. In the end, such attitudes will result in recruiting and retaining higher-caliber professionals.

[babylonsister]

102. Squatch! Great response, and I hope you are doing well!

Stay safe. :hug:

[Squatch]

106. Doing great, thank you!

Just got back from R&R, visiting my fam. I was home for about an hour before my daughter took her first steps...which absolutely lifted my spirits.

But, it's good to be back...I'm past the 1/2-way point and I'll be back home in no time.

Brian

[babylonsister]

107. So very cool you are here and got to see your baby!

I think of you and always am thrilled to see you post. Stay strong, hopefully you will get to stay home forever soon.

[ProfessorGAC]

124. Good Luck With That Squatch

I hope you can find an environment that engenders that, but i'm pessimistic for you.

My wife was a teacher for 25 years. I don't think she ever saw what you suggest.

It exists to some degree at the university level, but not as much as i'd hope.

I hope you find what you're looking for, but be prepared.
GAC

[eridani]

128. Yes. Strive to be more productive by firing all your bad apples n/t

[CRK7376]

146. Careful there Major

Gaining higher compensation and promotions.....tough in the world of public education....Promotion to Department Head or Curriculum Chair....not like how we promte in the Army. COmpensation much the same way, with Dept Chair or Curriculum Developer etc get more pay, but most teachers pay tied to number of years they have taught and their education level, masters degree etc...

I will be returning to teaching in a rural high school system when I retire in a few more years. I spent 13 years in the classroom before going back in the Army....

[liberalhistorian]

96. Have you ever been a teacher? Have you ever grown up

with teachers so that you see first-hand what they go through and how they're blamed for everything despite their best daily efforts and even though they have no control over their students' home lives and parental actions? No? Then STFU because you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I'm getting royally sick of this shit on here from people who have NO FUCKING CLUE what they're talking about.

[Squatch]

99. That's not fair...

"Then STFU because you don't know what the fuck you're talking about."

This is the same ad hominem that Freepers use when dismissing the comments of those who have, for instance, never served in the military but still have an opinion on the war in Iraq. It's intellectually lazy to be dismissive this way instead of considering the merits of the argument.

[Hanse]

114. We did consider the merits of the argument.

In fact, the more you consider it, the stupider it gets.

[roody]

97. We do have performance reviews.

The problem is that it will be based only on test scores.

[bvar22]

101. "We all knew who the good ones were ..."

No "we" didn't.
Some of the best teachers in my high school had a very negative reputation among students who preferred
easy teachers.

[Hannah Bell]

104. you & bush & the rest of the ruling class.

[bertman]

105. Perhaps it would be helpful for mudesi and some others to read this OP to get a bit

of perspective on some of the problems with the merit system that's being talked about.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8256470

Enjoy.

[Hanse]

113. If DUers got merit pay for good posts, you'd get docked for back pay.

And we all know it.

[Joe Fields]

117. good thing they don't dock us for snark. We'd all lose out.

[RiverStone]

120. It's late at night, so without reading all the up-thread stuff...

I'll say --- just like any profession, there are good and bad teachers. I've been in public education about 20 years, the district I currently work in has EVERY student on a free and reduced lunch. The poverty level is that high here.

You can have gifted teachers working with students from very challenged socio-economic conditions and not see the same progress as a teacher who works in a district with students of wealth and privilege.

How do you account for the audience (s) being vastly different? Rural Appalachia, inner city L.A., and here in depressed timber country in WA state --- just getting 50% of the students to pass a standardized test may be HUGE when you consider the depressed environment many of these kids live in.

I don't know how one measures "merit" when the kids that are being served are so different. It is far, far more than the results of testing; it is about preparing the whole kid for life. That's the real measurement of success.

[CRK7376]

149. Absolutely Correct!

Rural, foothills of Appalachia teacher here that dealt with poverty and kids that tried and kids that could care less! Parents that supported and worried and parents that could care less.....

[Political Heretic]

122. That's becuase you aren't one.

[lostnfound]

123. Actually I was recently thinking that we should survey the kids about that question

and actually use the results in determining merit pay.

Oh, I forgot, stripping kids of any real power or real responsbility is a part of the school structure and a goal. They can't be trusted to make those decisions. Unless they are at Sudbury.

[radfringe]

125. my experience with "merit" or "performance" pay

I've worked for several companies which offered raises or bonuses based on "merit" or "performance"

To determine the $$ amount, a review would be conducted. Some parts of the review were based on quantifiable parts of job duties and therefore objective. Other parts were solely SUBJECTIVE.

adding up the "numbers" and coming to a performance "mark" determined your bonus or raise.

There's one problem - more often than not - the raise or bonus amount was determined ahead of time, and the "review" was then tailored to match, using the "subjective" portion of the review to down-tick or up-tick the final "mark".

You could object to the final "mark" - however, your objection would be noted and the fact you objected would count against you as being "uncooperative" or "does not play well with others"

the end result is incentives to perform better didn't encourage you to perform better at all because the system was rigged for the get-go

[timtom]

129. Because, more often than not,

the main problems lie with the system, and not the operator. First, you fix the system. Then you look for spikes in the lower control level. Those, you weed out. Spikes in the upper control level should get merit pay.

But the system must be viable first.

And we need to take a long, hard look at the existing model of education.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

131. Students can't tell who the good and the bad teachers are.

Some of the most popular teachers at my school were, with hindsight, awful, and some of the unpopular ones were very good.

I have no problem with merit pay in principle, but "who do the students like?" is a daft way of measuring who is a good teacher.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

134. Define "mathematician" please. eom

[Donald Ian Rankin]

135. One who studies mathematics.

Definitions of "Mathematics" I like include "anything that can be rigorously deduced from the axioms of set theory" and "the rigorous study of structure, quantity and pattern", although neither of those is perfect.

In my case, I'm just finishing a PhD in multiplication by 2.

Why do you ask?

[asteroid2003QQ47]

140. Thank you. As one who has struggled with mathematics...

for far too many decades it has been my observation that the purists in the field of mathematics are above the ego problems (and deserving of respect) that beset those lower on the ladder.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

133. "Determining Who Is A Good Teacher" not "hard" IF...

students ("we"-is an extreme generalization!) are truly equipped to make that determination and IF administrators paid ANY attention to what students, who are all too often seen as little more than meat on the hook, think!

Without students the bureaucratic empire crumbles,
$tudent$ ARE the school!


-------------------------------

"That erroneous assumption is to the effect that the aim of public education is to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence, and so make them fit to discharge the duties of citizenship in an enlightened and independent manner. Nothing could be further from the truth. The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all; it is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality. That is its aim in the United States, whatever the pretensions of politicians, pedagogues and other such mountebanks, and that is its aim everwhere else."
-H.L. Mencken

Woe unto teachers, however 'good' they might be, if they are unwilling to maintain the pretense!

[kwassa]

156. but students largely aren't and never will be equipped to make that determination

They don't have knowledge and input to curricular goals, they may be required to take subjects that they don't like and see no use for, as they don't know what the world requires from them when they graduate from school. They simply don't have the knowledge and perspective to make those goals.

[garry6882]

154. Merit pay

Ok, as the ex husband of a teacher, this balloon has been floated numerous times, here are the problems with it.

A teacher has NO control over what students he or she is assigned
An administrator, if they don't like a particular teacher can assign them nothing but problem students while cherry picking the best students, therefore the "bonus" to the teachers they like.

That alone should kill this totally unfair proposal until there is accountability from administration to the teachers.

[B Calm]

158. Merit pay is based on who's the BEST ASS KISSER!

I work for a company that gives raises based on how the boss wants to evaulate you! This is not a good idea!

[LanternWaste]

162. What are the objective measurements used to determine this?

"We all knew who the good ones were and we all knew who the bad ones were"

What are the precise objective measurements used to determine this, and how are those measurements quantitatively applied?

I imagine that if it really is a no-brainer, there should be little or no hesitation in listing those very same objective measurements, yes?