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liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 02:21 AM
Original message
A primer on India and Pakistan
Edited on Sat Nov-29-08 03:15 AM by liberalpragmatist
I figured DU'ers who aren't familiar with South Asia might appreciate a brief rundown of the political history of South Asia. My profile is this: Indian-American and Hindu. I consider myself proudly Indian and proudly Hindu, though a cultural sense (like secular Jews). I'm also very interested in Indian history. One of Hinduism's best tenets is the belief in universalism -- I believe very firmly in tolerance and the essential goodness of the vast majority of human beings. Hence I strongly recoil from simplistic attempts to label any group enemies, something that needs to be stressed in this kind of Islamophobic climate.

In any event, here goes:

The Creation of Pakistan

Prior to 1947, under British rule, India, Pakistan and Bangladesh were all under British administration. 3/5 of the subcontinent was ruled directly by the British and divided into various provinces (Punjab, Sindh, Northwest Frontier, United Provinces, Central Provinces, Bengal, Assam, Madras, Bombay, etc.). The other 2/5 of the subcontinent were ruled indirectly through various Indian princes whose ancestors had cut deals with the British.

Pakistan arose due to the agitation of the Muslim League, lead by Muhammad Ali Jinnah. Jinnah had been an Indian Nationalist at one point, but he came to embrace the "Two Nation Theory" -- the idea that Hindus and Muslims constituted two separate nations within India and required equal political representation. People still debate whether Jinnah's actions were merely opportunistic or heartfelt (you can often tell who's Pakistani and whose Indian based on their assessments). Nevertheless, I won't delve into Jinnah's motivations. What IS true is that for a significant body of Muslims, there was fear that their religious rights would be curtailed under Hindu-majority rule.

Hindu nationalists also came to embrace the Two Nation Theory, and activists from the Hindu Mahasabha Party promoted the idea that Islam and Hinduism were incompatible; though some opposed the partition of India, they weren't all that upset by the outcome -- an overwhelmingly "Hindu" India.

The Muslim League was actually dominated by landowners who largely came from what is now Northern India. The demand for Pakistan was not particularly widespread prior to 1946 (a year before independence). In fact, the areas that currently MAKE UP Pakistan were largely resistant to the idea -- in those provinces, Muslims constituted a majority, so the local Muslims didn't really feel any sense of oppression. The Northwest Frontier Province -- the Pashtun region that is now the source of most of the terrorism -- was actually dominated by the secular Indian National Congress and their provincial leader, Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan, was a close disciple of Gandhi who vehemently rejected the idea of partition. The Punjab was ruled by a regionalist party that also eschewed partition.

Part of the Muslim League's rise to power actually came in response to WWII. The Indian National Congress, which was secular but Hindu-dominated, had been running a devolved government under British rule. They opposed Britain's declaring war on behalf of India, however, and boycotted the government and were arrested. Since the Muslim League had supported Britain's war efforts, the Brits put the Muslim League in charge of the Indian Administration -- the move vastly increased their visibility and gave them crucial space. In the previous elections, after all, the Muslim League had actually vastly underpolled the Congress and numerous regional parties.

When the war ended and the Congress members were released, the Muslim League's new power allowed it to agitate more strenuously for Pakistan. Due to their increased visibility, the call for Pakistan this time began to resonate, especially once communal violence broke out in several Indian cities.

In the 1946 election, the Muslim League vote surged, and the League swept the races for the Muslim seats (the British had divided seats in the Indian proto-parliament along religious lines -- Muslims could only vote for Muslim candidates, Hindus for Hindu candidates). At this stage, the demand for Pakistan remained quite vague, and there's reason to believe that Jinnah was actually agitating for a pan-Indian Confederation with Pakistan as a component unit. (After all, much of the Muslim League's core support came OUTSIDE the areas that would become Pakistan -- a completely independent Pakistan would leave those people outside its jurisdiction unless they moved.)

This was actually proposed in 1946 as a power-sharing deal (the 1946 Cabinet Mission Plan). The Muslim League actually accepted it -- however, the Indian National Congress, after initially accepting it, changed their minds and turned it down. Basically, at this point, the Congress had little desire to compromise with the Muslim League, especially when they felt they could obtain unchallenged political power in a slightly smaller India.

Partition came extremely rapidly. The demand had seen very little public support just two years earlier, yet in June of 1947, amidst rising communal tensions and following severe riots in major cities, the Brits -- who were hell bent on getting out -- announced that in two months they would leave and that the country would be divided. The borders weren't even announced until the day AFTER independence. They were drawn by a civil servant from England who had never been to India and never would.

Few on either side expected partition to be particularly traumatic. The expectation from both the Muslim League and the INC was that most Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan would stay in Pakistan and most Muslims in India would stay in India. Jinnah himself never sold his Indian property. The expectation was that BOTH states would be secular (as Jinnah himself desired).

Yet as soon as independence for both countries was declared, there was mass chaos. The British refused to enforce order, arguing their mandate had expired. As cities devolved into massive killing zones, millions of Hindus and Muslims abruptly fled -- many with almost no planning, having anticipated staying in their homes until just days earlier. 10-20 million people crossed the borders in those days, and millions were killed in an undeclared civil war.

The Partition permanently poisoned relationships between India and Pakistan thereafter. It radicalized an entire generation on both sides to think of "the other" as a would-be killer.

The Kashmir Dispute

The Kashmir Conflict is fairly complicated. At the time of partition, Kashmir as a princely state -- the princely states were not subject to the British and were technically independent when the British ended their administration. The princely states were theoretically free to join either India or Pakistan or remain independent. Except for Kashmir, however, all the others either joined India or Pakistan (based on the wishes of the local population) or were forced to join either India or Pakistan by force.

Kashmir was an interesting place. It had a multethnic and multireligious character, but had an overall Muslim majority of about 65%. Nevertheless, it was ruled by a Hindu king. The chief political party -- the democratic opposition to the Maharajah -- was the National Conference, a Muslim political party based in the Kashmiri valley (the region of the state where the bulk of the state's Muslims lived).

At the time of the partition, the general sentiment in Kashmir from both the king and most of the Kashmiris (at least among residents of the Valley) was for Kashmir to remain independent. Both India and Pakistan coveted the region, however. Pakistan coveted it because it was a Muslim-majority region and India coveted it for strategic reasons and more sentimental ones: the family of Nehru, India's first Prime Minister, was Kashmiri in origin.

When, months after independence, Kashmir had yet to accede to either state, Pakistan sent tribal elements to invade and jumpstart what they hoped would be a pro-Pakistan uprising. Things did not quite turn out that way. The tribal warriors would up getting diverted and preoccupied themselves with looting, which gave the Maharajah enough time to ask for Indian assistance to repel the invaders. India consented on the condition that the Maharajah accede to India.

At the time, the evidence actually indicates that most Kashmiris supported the decision to accede to India. Though the king was hated, Sheikh Abdullah, the popular leader of the National Conference had openly denounced the partition of India and was a close friend of Nehru. India troops were welcomed by the local population, who also feted Gandhi when he had visited earlier. India managed to turn back the Pakistani irregular forces, but only pushed them back until they were left with about one-third of the state -- these were mainly tribal regions in the north where India had little popular support. Nehru called for a cease-fire and went to the UN, who asked that both states withdraw and hold a plebescite.

Both sides ignored that call. India simply admitted Kashmir as a state, albeit one with a special autonomous status -- Kashmir was to be largely self-governing, with its own flag and constitution (something other Indian states don't have), and it would have the right to nullify federal laws. Furthermore, Kashmir could set its own immigration policies (to prevent large-scale Hindu transfers into Kashmir).

For the next ten years, there were no protests against Indian rule in Kashmir. However, the central government began to violate the terms of Kashmir's accession, stripping the state slowly of its autonomy. When Sheikh Abdullah protested and publicly flirted with the idea of independence, India responded by throwing him in jail on charges of sedition, which lead to the first large-scale protests against Indian rule.

Over the next several decades, successive Indian governments, attempting to stifle rising separatist sentiment, would jail Kashmiri politicians and blatantly rig elections in order to promote friendly politicians. The modern troubles date to 1988, when the brutal suppression of protests following another rigged election lead to sustained militancy.

Thereafter, Pakistan's intelligence services essentially grabbed onto Kashmir as a proxy conflict. They began funding anti-India groups that quickly took on a deeply fundamentalist bent. (The movement had started out largely Muslim but secular.) This was ironic, since Kashmir had historically been one of the most tolerant places in India -- the local Muslim customs were highly universalist and the Sufi saints were honored jointly by Hindus AND Muslims in Kashmir. The Islamicization of the Kashmir conflict lead to attacks on local Hindus and their large-scale emigration to other parts of India.

These days, most of the militants in Kashmir are foreign fighters. That isn't to say Kashmiris themselves are any happier with the situation -- most of them still desire independence. Independence is complicated by the fact that its opposed by the Hindu minority and by majorities in the regions of the state abutting the Kashmir valley. The Jammu region of the state is majority-Hindu and would like to remain part of India - Jammu lies to the south of the Kashmir Valley and the Valley is economically-dependent on Jammu. To the east of the Valley are the regions of Kargil and Ladakh, which have a mixed Muslim/Buddhist population -- that region too wants to stay part of India but can only be accessed through the Kashmir Valley.

Moreover, India fears that independence in Kashmir would lead to a small, unstable state on its northern border and that it would threaten India's unity, since India is a multiethnic, multireligious country with several dozens of languages and other non-Hindu majority states. (Indian Punjab has a Sikh majority and several tribal states in the Northeast have Christian majorities.)

Pakistan and Islamic Militancy

Pakistan entered independence in a very weak state. India had obtained most of the civic infrastructure and the bulk of the British-Indian military. Moreover, the Indian National Congress had more developed plans for government. The Muslim League had mainly been a pressure group for agitating for Pakistan -- once that demand was granted, the party had little in the way of a policy platform.

Moreover, the state was a geographic monstrosity, consisting of two wings -- East Pakistan and West Pakistan -- that were separated by nearly 2000 miles of Indian territory. Culturally, the Bengalis of East Pakistan and the Punjabis, Pashtuns, Sindhis, and Urdu-speakers of West Pakistan were completely different. There was nothing in common between them except for their Islamic faith. (Imagine creating a "Catholic" nation that consisted only of Spain and Poland -- that's what Pakistan was like at birth.)

Jinnah's hope was to create a secular homeland for Muslims on the subcontinent -- in theory, the closest analogue would actually be Israel. (It was for this reason that the Indian National Congress opposed the division of Palestine or the creation of Israel, viewing it as the exact same principle.)

Yet that distinction between a homeland for Muslims and a Muslim state was lost on many. Certainly, the more politicized members of the Muslim clerical establishment saw Pakistan as an endorsement of an Islamic state.

Jinnah may have been able to prevent that from happening, but he died very shortly after independence. His successor, the like-minded secularist Liaquat Ali Khan was assassinated in 1950 under mysterious circumstances.

The result is that Pakistan drifted for nearly a decade without a formal constitution, being governed under an amended form of the Government of India Act of 1937. No elections were held and the civilian president, Ghulam Muhammad, basically ruled as a civilian-autocrat until the army stepped in and placed Gen. Ayub Khan in power in the late 1950s.

The country drifted in and out of military rule for the next several decades. In 1971, the country split apart, with Pakistan's eastern wing, the province of East Bengal, becoming the independent state of Bangladesh in an extremely bloody civil war that saw Indian intervention.

In 1977, the civilian Prime Minister Zulfiker Bhutto was overthrown by Gen. Zia ul-Haq, who was responsible for the large-scale Islamicization of Pakistan. Although Pakistan had trappings of Islamic rule up till that point, it had largely been secular and most Pakistani law was British in origin.

Zia used Islam as a tool to justify his rule and curry favor with the conservative clerics. He also became a key U.S. Cold War ally and both the Carter and Reagan Administrations showered his regime with arms and funding in order to arm the Afghan Mujihadeen who were fighting the Soviets. It was Zia who also began funding militant groups in both Indian Punjab (Sikh separatists) and Kashmir.

He also put in place sharia law in civil cases and cracked down harshly on the Ahmadiyyas, a heterodox Muslim sect. Zia died in a mysterious plane crash in 1988, but the legacy of his rule is the rise of radical political Islam in Pakistan, something which had barely existed prior to his patronage.

Throughout the 1990s, Pakistan was ruled by weak and corrupt civilian leaders -- Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif. The country's economy was entirely stagnant during this period and Islamic political parties began to exercise a great deal of political power through brute force -- though they still didn't win many votes, they became expert agitators.

After Sharif was overthrown by Musharraf in 1999, Musharraf again, like Zia, used religious parties as cover for his policies. Though, post-9/11, he pledged to withdraw financing and funding of terror groups operating in Kashmir and Afghanistan, this didn't happen, whether by intent or design -- much of the Pakistan security and military establishment is essentially rogue.

***

In the end, this has wound up FAR longer than I anticipated. I expect this will drop like a rock, but I'm posting it anyway. I hope at least a few of you find this informative.
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 02:56 AM
Response to Original message
1. STRONGLY recommended!
My knowledge of India and Pakistan is rather sketchy, but probably up around the 95th to 99th percentile when it comes to Americans. Your mini-history hit every main feature of the development of the current situation in a very fair, clear and concise manner, and yet added important details that I did not know without getting bogged down in factoids.

I hope people begin to see how conflicts like this get generated by political maneuvers, rather than being somehow "human nature."

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liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Glad you enjoyed it
The ending is fairly abrupt. And there's a whole lot more one could add -- certainly, I could give a more detailed description of the political landscape in Pakistan (which is absurdly complicated right now) as well as the political landscape of India.

Maybe some other time :)
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strategery blunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 04:10 AM
Response to Original message
3. K&R. Off to the Greatest Page with ye!
I knew that I knew little about India, but I thought I knew a bit more about Pakistan. I had no idea that Pakistan used to include what is now Bangladesh!

I knew that the two countries really do not like or trust each other, but I had never bothered to do the research as to why. Your post provides a very good explanation that is concise enough for me to digest at 1 AM :)
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 04:16 AM
Response to Original message
4. Khan was quite an amazing fellow
This guy should be as well known as his comrade in arms Ghandhi, but unfortunately is not.

http://www.monitor.upeace.org/innerpg.cfm?id_article=93

Badshah Khan was progressively drawn to involvement in the struggle for independence and sought inspiration from the nonviolent tradition of Islam, which he claimed had been present in that creed but had been forgotten. “There is nothing surprising in a Muslim or Pathan like me subscribing to the creed of nonviolence. It is not a new creed. It was followed fourteen hundred years ago by the Prophet all the time he was in Mecca, and it has since been followed by all those who wanted to throw off the oppressor’s yoke. But we had so far forgotten it that when Ghandhiji placed it before us, we thought he was sponsoring a novel creed.”

Badsha Khan set about setting up his own nonviolent army, Khudai Khidmatgars or “Servants of God” in 1929-30. As with Gandhi, the ”simple life” went hand in hand with nonviolence and anti-imperialism, and non-violence as a method was directed against Pathan violence as much as British violence. When the Pathans wanted weapons he would say “I am going to give you a weapon…It is the weapon of the Prophet…that weapon is patience and righteousness…If you exercise patience, victory will be yours.”

For two years after the formation of the Khudia Khidmtagars, Pathans died without fighting back violently, and Badshah Khan’s movement swelled to eighty thousand, many showing astonishing bravery in the face of British atrocities. He was arrested and then banished. He chose to spend his exile at Gandhi’s ashram and the two men became close. In the end British India did not stay together as we know, and Gandhi died of violence. Badshah Khan lived well into his nineties, dying in 1988, having spent thirty years on and off in prison. He never faltered either in his opposition to foreign rule nor in his resolve of the power of nonviolence.
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liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
21. It's truly sad that Khan isn't more well known
... as you say. Especially when political Islam is currently dominated by violence, it's sad that a non-violent political movement that drew from Islam gets so little attention.

Part of the problem is that Khan, at some level, failed. Partition basically undid his political power and killed his movement. It's amazing to think that a Pashtun leader was the head of such a movement, given that the Pashtuns have such a martial reputation.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #21
39. I think the martial discipline contributed to the movement's success
They were an army in every sense except that of having weapons. In Pakistan, they'd probably want to forget someone who was against partition, and in India he's probably regarded more as Ghandi's kid brother than an co-equal movement leader.

Interesting that both cropped up in the same historical time frame. Maybe, as Aleister Crowley said, it steam engines when it's steam engine time.
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 05:32 AM
Response to Original message
5. Very good article...
Edited on Sat Nov-29-08 05:33 AM by regnaD kciN
My only question would be on one unraised issue: how many Muslims in India and Pakistan believe, as I've heard some claim, that, since the (Muslim) Moghul Empire ruled those lands for centuries prior to British conquest, India should properly have been returned to being an Islamic state following independence? Was that a sentiment of many at the time, or has that only become part of "conventional wisdom" on the part of (some) Muslims in recent years, as the influence of Islamism has grown?

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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. this is said by some of the biggest critics of Islam also
i don't know how true it is.

but i often hear from the critics of Islam when discussing terrorism that they are upset because Islam use to rule and be more influential and higher up in the world and now the mostly muslim nations are lagging behind. and that's why they commit terrorist acts.

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liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
20. Pre-independence, Muslims were the "old elite", Hindus the "new"
Prior to British rule, Muslims formed the ruling class. That meant that they were largely shut out of government when the British took over administration.

The break was especially sharp after the 1857 Rebellion (the British call it "Mutiny"; Indians call it the "First War for Independence"). Though the rebellion was largely non-religious in character, and although large numbers of Hindus took part, the leaders of the rebellion were largely the old Muslim landowners and princes.

Many of them were killed or exiled by the Brits when the rebellion was put down. Thereafter, the old Muslim elite was sort of shut out of power. When the British began cultivating an Indian "ruling class," it wound up being upwardly-mobile Hindus who largely benefited. That was partly through patronage, but similar in many ways to what happened in Europe, where in the 19th century much of the political space was dominated by conflict between the "new" bourgeoisie (merchants, professionals) and the old aristocracy. In India, this was also the case, only with Muslim landowners as the old aristocracy and Hindu civil servants, lawyers and merchants as the bourgeoisie.

This was actually a major source of the division between Hindus and Muslims. The Muslim leadership essentially felt shut out of political discussion because the political class was dominated by Hindus. Moreover, many of those Hindus came to embrace Socialist ideas like land reform which threatened the land holdings of the Muslim aristocracy.

Ironically, despite the fact that British rule is what shut out the Muslims in the first place, by the 1920s and 1930s, many Muslims began to see the British as protection against Hindu-majority rule, something they increasingly feared when they saw the the Indian National Congress was, despite some prominent Muslim members and a secular ideology, disproportionately Hindu.

Of course, the Muslim masses were largely poor. The Muslim community in India was somewhat bifurcated - there were low-caste Muslim villagers and the Muslim landowning elite. However, as is typical of political movements, political ideas were cultivated at the top and trickled down. Many Muslims genuinely began to fear for their future in a Hindu-dominated India. Active Hindu consciousness movements, such as attempts to ban cow slaughter, made them more suspicious. And Gandhi played an unwitting role as well - though he was highly tolerant, he still typically spoke of India having an essentially Hindu character and calling for a "Ram Rajya" -- rule of Ram or a kingdom of God. He meant this as paradise, but it left many Muslims cold and seemed to question their validity to the Indian experience.

So to answer your question, at least in the case of India, there was a sense of being shut out from their old power-center.

I've talked a lot in this reply about the Muslim landowning class -- interestingly, this has implications for today. Part of the reason that Muslims in India are overwhelmingly poor is because most of the middle-class and upper-class Muslims left for Pakistan.
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 05:45 AM
Response to Original message
6. I was clueless about the history of India
Thank you very much for the education.

This seems to me to be a very, very bad thing to do and the end of any Unity that may have been possible: "Muslims could only vote for Muslim candidates, Hindus for Hindu candidates."
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 05:52 AM
Response to Original message
7. Nominated.
Thank you for this. It is what DU is, at its best.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 05:59 AM
Response to Original message
8. Wow. Kick and rec and bookmarked for later. Thank you. n/t
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 07:24 AM
Response to Original message
9. Well written and informative--did you do this?
Take a bow if you did and post a cred it you didn't. This is a much better explanation of that tragic border than what my high school text gives.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
10. an interesting bbc article from last year about papers found on the partition
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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
11. FANTASTIC summary...
thoroughly unvarnished.

Though i'd love to see maps to accompany this piece.

Have you submitted this anywhere? If not, you should.

K&R

and peace.


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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
13. Universalism in a country that has a caste system?
How do you rationalize that?
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liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. Well, I mean in terms of its relations with other faiths
... certainly the caste system is a blot on Hinduism. But what I'm referring to is Hinduism's belief that all religions and belief systems can lead to salvation. Hinduism is action-based; at its core, its based on the idea that its one's ACTIONS that determine one's fate in the afterlife, not one's beliefs. Hinduism does not say that it is the only true faith and that members of other religions will burn in Hell or fail to attain a reward in the afterlife.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
14. Excellent - thank you for this (nt)
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Buns_of_Fire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 08:22 AM
Response to Original message
15. Fascinating. Thank you.
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
16. K&R. n/t
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
17. Interesting that your narrative includes no influence by Russia or the US during the "Cold War"
Edited on Sat Nov-29-08 10:20 AM by ThomWV
Thank you very much for your narrative. I needed to see something like this. However I suspect that what you've told us is more of a personal narrative that of necessity omits events or pressures of national importance that you gave little weight. Its natural and not a bad thing. Someone who is very very close to my wife and I was a child traveling with her father in Kashmir witnessed her first killing, her father would later die there as well. So naturally when she recounts the history of her nation its comes from a different viewpoint.


By the way, I think you said it beautifully when you said "One of Hinduism's best tenets is the belief in universalism -- I believe very firmly in tolerance and the essential goodness of the vast majority of human beings." I have found this to be true of every Hindu I have ever known.
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
18. Thank you for your very interesting and informative article.
I knew so little before.
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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
19. Yeah. like a rock. K&R, printed and saved to the HDD so I can print a copy I can see.
Thanks for the lesson and the extensive time you put in.

I know less than nothing about Hindu, but I'm sure our current administration is a direct affront to everything you believe. However, I will do some research to learn my bit in not offending the few Hindu, Sikh and anyone else I hadn't considered previously. I've been a complete dick.

Thanks for the wake-up. Cultural and Religious insensitvity is my gift and I need to change and make a few other people understand.
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jrandom421 Donating Member (367 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
23. Interesting
Apparently there is no mention of the 3 wars they fought, the latest one in 1971.
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liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Well, I just figured I'd give background...
... to a few major issues. Namely, (1) partition, (2) Kashmir, and (3) Islamic militancy in Pakistan.

But you're right -- I skipped over large parts of history between 1947 and modern times.
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varun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
25. Well written
You have presented the post mughal history in a concise and clear fashion.

To understand the present tension between India and Pakistan, however, one needs to read about the three wars (actually four - the last one in 1999). Most political leaders in both the countries were born after the partition, so their worldview has been shaped by the events after 1947.

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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
26. rec. Thanks, I saved a copy for further study. nm
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bluestateboomer Donating Member (313 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
27. Very Informative. K&R
Thanks!
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bluesmail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
28. bookmarking and a K&R.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
29. k&r&b with thanks.
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snappyturtle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
30. K&R and bookmarked! Thank you so much. nt
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La Coliniere Donating Member (581 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
31. Thanks!
I needed that (to understand the present situation more thoroughly vis a vis an historical context).
Kick
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
32. K&R.nt
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denverbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
33. Great synopsis! Thank you! n/t
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ljm2002 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
34. Thanks so much for this!
Very informative.

K&R

:kick:
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2QT2BSTR8 Donating Member (320 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
35. K&R! Very informative!
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blaze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 08:05 PM
Response to Original message
36. Don't know why you thought this would drop like a rock!
We are hungry to understand.
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AusDem Donating Member (219 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
37. that first paragraph:
"I figured DU'ers who aren't familiar with South Asia might appreciate a brief rundown of the political history of South Asia. My profile is this: Indian-American and Hindu. I consider myself proudly Indian and proudly Hindu, though a cultural sense (like secular Jews). I'm also very interested in Indian history. One of Hinduism's best tenets is the belief in universalism -- I believe very firmly in tolerance and the essential goodness of the vast majority of human beings."

pretty much describes me too (except currently working in Aus)

great primer
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DUlover2909 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
38. very informative. Thanks!
:)
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davidthegnome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
40. Thanks for taking the time to put that together
I was wondering about it, worried about the tensions between India and Pakistan, this certainly makes things a little clearer to me. A very educational thread, well done and thank you. I know I learned a lot.
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Orwellian_Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
41. K&R
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-29-08 11:53 PM
Response to Original message
42. great essay; did you write it yourself?
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liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-08 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #42
45. Yup
I'm actually a little embarrassed it got so popular. I intended it to be (very) brief, but I got a little carried away. Had I known it would get so many recs I would have expanded a couple sections, written a better conclusion, included some maps and blockquotes and made some citations and references.

Still, glad I could provide some info to people.
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Kire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-08 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
43. how do you know all this?
nt
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-08 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. S/he said they were interested in their Indian history.
So they must have done their research.
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liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-08 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #43
46. I have a good mind for history...
... I've been interested in Indian history and I know a lot about India's political and social development.

I can also credit a couple college courses an EXCELLENT professor (who I've unfortunately lost touch with) with a lot of this knowledge. I'm not too far out of college, but three years ago, I took a fantastic seminar on the history of British India which went really in depth into how British rule impacted Indian society. It taught me a lot about how British rule effected Hindus and Muslims differently and how their responses to British rule and to modernization culminated in the Partition.

Moreover, as an Indian-American, I'm extremely aware of partition, as virtually all Indians are. Partition is basically the essential catastrophe of the Indian political experience, much as the Nazism and WW2 define modern Germany or how the Holocaust defines Israel.
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Kire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-08 06:08 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. thank you very much
thank you for posting this

I am skeptical of information that people post as their own when they don't identify where they got it at all.

I have several childhood friends who were from Indian families and they weren't shy about talking about India. My best friend in college, Venkatesh (RIP), was Indian, and I have always been interested in India's political and social development.

I have never been there, but my brother has been all over India (he said he "would be dead" if he were in Mumbai the other day). But he and I have been all over different places in Africa. http://chucksworldjournal.blogspot.com/">His blog is full of different places from all over the world, but I have "only" been to Ghana in 1995 and Jamaica in 2005, myself. I had quite an experience learning about the political and social development of Jamaica. We did a little touristy stuff, but not much. It was an NGO called Edu-Tourism from the Philadelphia area, made up mostly of professors and students from West Chester University and Temple University.

Anyway, I have spent a great deal of time setting up all these different links, which is unusual for a simple reply in a DU forum, but I wanted to really let you know how grateful I am that you posted the OP and, though I am an Swedish-Irish-Norwegian-English-Dutch-French American, I consider people from many different countries and backgrounds my brothers and sisters.

Check me out on myspace or facebook, please. I would really appreciate that.

Thanks,
Erik B. Anderson
Independence Township, New Jersey
Established 1782

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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-08 06:45 AM
Response to Original message
48. Thank you for filling in the vacuum left by our useless media.
This is the kind of information that Americans NEED. How can we push our Government to behave in a rational fashion if we are ignorant of the details and reality of any situation?

DU is my primary source for "What you Need to Know Now" when it comes to so many things that are going to effect the trajectory of the future.

It is too late for me to recommend this post.. but kick it I will!
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-08 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. "How can we push our Government to behave in a rational fashion
Edited on Sun Nov-30-08 12:30 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
if we are ignorant of the details and reality of any situation?"

I'm afraid the realpolitik pursued by the West reflects no more than what its leaders want to know - more emphatically, what they want us to know. Maybe it's true of all country's now. In other words, the West makes up what it wants its people to believe and force-feeds it via its corporate media propaganda arm. As one of the "psycho" Neocons once put it, "You don't understand. We make our own reality."

In good times, people, generally, are unwilling to ponder moral questions raised by their country's ethos and mores. Only in bad times do people resensitize themselves to question the received wisdom as peddled by our corporate media, for whom the sole "moral" purposes of the population should be to buy, consume ad ratify its Government's policies.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-08 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
49. A lot to take in, but very interesting, liberalpragmatist. Thanks very much.
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two gun sid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-08 02:36 PM
Response to Original message
51. Great post, liberalpragmatist! k&r
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-08 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
52. kick
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sledgehammer Donating Member (774 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-08 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
53. Pretty good history...
Definitely written from an Indian perspective, but it remains rather objective (anyone who knows anything about Pakistan and India knows how difficult that can be!). Thanks for sharing this info with DU readers.

Just a few points for clarification and enhancement, mainly around the Pakistan-Islam-US side of things:

- The US supported the Afghan Mujahideen with money and lots of arms to get rid of Soviet occupiers, and convinced them it was a religious battle. Once that Soviet pullout was over, many of these fighters were "laid off" as the US dropped its support to Pakistan (late 80s, early 90s) and ran. So many of these fighters/leaders turned their attention to other Muslim causes e.g. Kashmir, Chechnya, etc. That's when the Kashmir struggle got worse - both politically and militarily.

- Musharraf really didn't use religious parties as a cover for anything. He only asked for their support once and tricked them into believing he would support religious causes in return for giving him legitimacy as President. Musharraf's failures are that he didn't clamp down enough on the Army itself, but he did try to do it politically and socially (even though he failed in that attempt as well, mainly due to the negative reaction to his support of the US). FYI, I am NO fan of Mush at all!

- Pakistan has enjoyed its greatest support from the US when we have had military dictators. This has seriously hampered Pakistan's efforts for democracy. Throughout the 90s we had democratically elected governments, but absolutely no support from the US. On either end of this period, we had military dictators and massive US support (first for Afghanistan, and then for War on Terror). This also speaks to Pakistan's biggest failure - they have never worked toward self-sufficiency in policy or economic terms. This is in serious contrast to India's success in these areas.

- The statement of "brutal suppression of protests" is a bit generous. The Indian Army has one solider in Kashmir for every handful of Kashmiris. Reports of serious army excesses against Kashmiri civilians, combined with Hindu-Muslim tensions in India following the destruction of the Babri Mosque by Hindu extremists (and the subsequent Hindu Muslim riots), exacerbated the situation tremendously. It was really unfortunate timing.

- Zia was a follower of Wahabi Islam, which is what the Saudi royal family has exported to the world over the last few decades. It's basically Puritan Islam. Zia was a hero to the Saudis, and under his rule the Saudis funneled serious money into Pakistan to spread this highly intolerant version of Islam. Zia enabled this unfortunately irreversible and permanently damaging period of Pakistan.

- The persecution of the Ahmadis started under Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. Yes, he was a big liberal. But he needed the support of Islamic parties in his waning years, so he had Ahmadis declared officially to be non-Muslims, and he took other socially conservative actions (e.g. banning the general availability of alcohol, etc.). Under Zia, the persecution intensified. Zia also began attacking Shias and other minorities, and established a fundamentalist mentality in the Army and government.

Hope these points add to the discussion. I think most people around the world have little or no insight into the subcontinent and its intricate history. Thanks for your post.
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liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #53
62. Good points to add...
... I didn't realize Bhutto was the one who declared the Ahmadis non-Muslims. Did their persecution intensify under Zia? (I had always been under the impression Zia initiated the persecution of the Ahmadis.)

Also, did Zia impose separate electorates for religious minorities, or was that there before?
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sledgehammer Donating Member (774 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #62
63. The decision to declare Ahmadis non-Muslim was Bhutto's
He tried to pander to the religious right (never a good idea in any country!). He went on to ban alcohol, casinos, and nightclubs - all of which were very common in Pakistan until then. Given his socially liberal personal life and philosophies, these moves were pretty damn disappointing.

Separate electorates were introduced by Zia in the 1980s. They were definitely discriminatory and wrong in principle. However, they did ensure that 10 seats (4 Christian, 4 Hindu, 1 Ahmadi, 1 Parsi/other) were reserved for minorities in the National Assembly. So it was an uneasy two-way street - minorities couldn't vote for general election candidates, but they were assured of some representation especially since they stood little chance of getting elected in general elections against Muslim candidates. However, their vote base was totally disenfranchised, and there was no scope for participation of minority candidates in general elections.

The separate electorate system was abolished by Musharraf in 2001 for national and provincial elections, yet he still kept the reserved seats for minorities. These reserved seats are divided among the major parties based on proportional representation, and the parties select the minority candidates of their choice to fill the seats.

Minorities have not fared well in the general election process. In 2002 only one minority candidate was elected to a National Assembly seat, and in 2008 I don't think a single minority candidate won a seat. Thus, the reserved seats are critical for minority representation, and they were a product of the imposition of separate electorates. So I think things are good now - joint electorates, and some guaranteed representation.
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sledgehammer Donating Member (774 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #62
65. And yes, persecution of Ahmadis increased under Zia.
And Zia also planted the seeds of permanent and violent ethnic (e.g. MQM/others) and sectarian (Shia/Sunni) strife.
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pauldp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-08 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
54. If much of Pakistan's Military establishment is rogue with ties to terrorists..
then we really need to ask where the 10 BILLION a year we give to Pakistan to fight the "War on Terror" is going right?
How can we be sure some of it is not going to actually fund terror instead of fight it?
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sledgehammer Donating Member (774 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-08 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. Not "much of"...
...but certainly elements of the Army share the same mentality as some militant groups. And in some cases the support is more than just emotional, though that has been reduced in the last few years.

Nobody really knows where those $10 billion are going. I know a good portion is going to conventional weapons rather than anti-terrorist weaponry. The Army is completely unaccountable in Pakistan - no one can question their finances.

Oh, and definitely some of it went to upgrade the Army's luxury homes and offices.

This is what happens when you give money with no oversight. A total waste of US $$$. In the end, Pakistan is worse off, the Taliban and extremist elements in Pakistan are on the rise, and countless Pakistani soldiers and civilians have been killed in the crossfire.

There are smarter ways to combat terrorism. It requires a combination of military, political, and educational action. I recommend reading this article about the effort of Greg Mortenson, an ordinary American who has done extraordinary things.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/13/opinion/13kristof.html?_r=2&ref=opinion&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin

Here's an excerpt from the article:

"Military force is essential in Afghanistan to combat the Taliban. But over time, in Pakistan and Afghanistan alike, the best tonic against militant fundamentalism will be education and economic opportunity.

So a lone Montanan staying at the cheapest guest houses has done more to advance U.S. interests in the region than the entire military and foreign policy apparatus of the Bush administration."
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pauldp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #55
66. Thanks for the link. My wife just read "3 Cups of Tea" It sounds great. nt
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-08 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
56. Thank you for this very interesting summary
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ZombieNixon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-08 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
57. Thank you, liberalpragmatist.
This incident in Mumbai has attracted me more to GD than I have been in years, mostly to see what's going on, and I have been appalled by the lack of knowledge of the historical background to the situation in some quarters.

And an Indian-American as well, I appreciate seeing and objective and well written history primer that highlights some of the aspect that led up to this awful tension. Props. :toast:
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stanwyck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-08 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
58. I just finished Rushdie's Children of Midnight, so
your synopsis helped me understand the politics within Rushdie's fascinating book. The children of midnight were the babies born at midnight when India gained independence. Much of what you've covered is mentioned within the fictional framework. But your concise analysis helps me better understand Rushdie's story which begins in 1947 and continues for 30 years.
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hay rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-08 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
59. Good read. Thanks. nt
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JitterbugPerfume Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-30-08 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
60. fascinating!
bookmarked

There is way to much here to digest in a single reading
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 07:03 AM
Response to Original message
61. Monday morning kick for the cube-rats.. .
a must read.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 07:31 AM
Response to Original message
64. Another kick for any lingering lurkers who missed it.... This is stuff
that needs to be absorbed by as many people as possible.

(Pass it around)
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