Colombia Faces Military Border Blockade from Venezuela and Ecuador

[seemslikeadream]

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/03/05/7490/

Venezuela and Ecuador were today seeking to increase pressure on Colombia over a controversial military raid, as the region’s most perilous crisis for years developed into a test of diplomatic strength between their leftwing governments and the heavily US-backed administration in Bogotá.

Colombia, which faces thousands of freshly mobilised troops on its borders with both Ecuador to the south and Venezuela to the north, has attracted widespread regional condemnation for Saturday’s bombing raid on a rebel camp one mile inside Ecuadorean territory.

The attack killed at least 21 members of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (Farc), including a senior commander, Raúl Reyes.

However, Colombia’s president, Álvaro Uribe, received strong support yesterday from President George Bush and hit back with a series of claims, including allegations of close collusion between Farc and the Ecuadorean and Venezuelan leaders.

Ecuador’s president, Rafael Correa, has already rejected a Colombian apology as insufficient. Today he was scheduled to meet Brazil’s left-leaning president, Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, on the latest leg of a six-nation regional tour.

His next stop will be Venezuela for a meeting with the country’s president, Hugo Chávez, who has begun shutting down sections of Venezuela’s 1,400-mile border with Colombia to try to isolate its neighbour

[Hardrada]

1. Mt nephew's wife is from Ecuador. She keeps me up on events

down there. She was initially surprised that any American was interested!

[lovuian]

2. Columbia maybe invaded soon time will tell

[MaryCeleste]

3. Then expect help for Colombia from the USN

The Tomahawks will fly...

[RaleighNCDUer]

4. Yep. We'll rush right in to save the ass of the death squad supporting

narco-trafficker friendly Presidente of Colombia.

We'll show THEM what the war on drugs means.

[MaryCeleste]

5. When (not if) Chavez sends his armor over the border with Colombia

he will effectively green light the strikes. The only question will be what will be hit and how hard.

[pbca]

6. And Gas prices will soar

and the US will have another war, probably a big one - Ecuador AND Venezuela AND Columbian Rebels

Welcome to Iraq II

[JackRiddler]

7. Excuse me? The only one who's invaded another country's territory so far...

is Colombia. Deal with it.

[MaryCeleste]

9. So Far...

Colombia does not have the military strength to go up against Chavez, especially in the area of armor. Instead they are going to smear Chavez in the media and at the world court with "data" they seized at the FARC camp.

I see it unfolding about like this:

There will be a punitive raid into Colombia "in support" of Ecuador. It will have an Ecuadorian front, but the real military power will be from Venezuela. Colombia will call for help. If Chavez makes a broad attack rather than a small raid, Colombia will get help in the form of tomahawks or air strikes. This is an addition to whatever cadre and other US assets that are already in country.

Remember, Chavez has the largest and most effective army down in the region. News reports said 10 battalions and support troops were sent to the border with Colombia. That better than 10,000 men. The raid into Ecuador was most likely no more than 100 men. Though the deployment can not be instantaneous, there is going to be a serious imbalance of forces, even if Colombia reinforces and goes defensive. Add to that the ongoing war of words between Venezuela and Colombia. That Chavez would use his troops is well within the realm of possibility.

Also note that I was not the person who broached Venezuelan military action in this thread

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

10. I honestly dont know how I feel about that...

Lets say there was a group of Americans making raids into Mexico, killing people, stealing, and then going back across the border... Lets say the US govt turned a blind eye to it...

Would you really fault Mexico for a surgical strike?

Its not all that simple..

[FalconsRule]

13. Self Delete

[LynnTheDem]

15. Yes.

I would indeed fault Mexico for violating another nation's sovereignty and international law.

I don't care who does it. It's illegal and wrong.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

16. But it is legal to harbor people who kill, steal, and destroy because

of political differences?

[LynnTheDem]

17. Strawman.

[DadOf2LittleAngels]

18. What straw man?

The folks who Columbia went after (and Mexico in my scenario) were, for years, committing violent act then going back across the border.

this is why I said its a hard call..

[EFerrari]

19. Colombia just knocked off the guy who has been negotiating

the hostage release, and btw, has been trying to broker a peace agreement.

They did it on purpose, most likely with Bush's approval if not at his suggestion. And now the PR is being spun the other way.

[MaryCeleste]

21. The fact that he was holding hostages doesn't figure into the equation?

FARC is a bad actor who does bad things. He was the #2 guy. That he was also negotiating with others for their release means he was holding them. Saying FARC wants peace is just silly. Not saying that it justified the raid, but quit trying to lionize him.

[EFerrari]

22. So, relating facts now is "lionizing"?

The only ones who are benefiting from the situation in Colombia is the Uribe government and your own government. The google is your friend.

[MaryCeleste]

23. Most of the silly spin on this is coming from Venezuelan sources

assinine claims of "massacre" and such.

To me the percentage bet is Chavez will instigate some sort of vengeance attack. See post #9 for more

[EFerrari]

27. No, that's wrong. In fact, the Pentagon made sure that their version

made it out first, complete with their client's fabrications.

It was a massacre. These people were shot in their sleep and those who tried to flee were shot in the back. Makes you proud to be an American.

And Chavez will do no such thing. That's also wrong.

[EFerrari]

28. Links that don't come from the White House fax machine:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x2404

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x2433

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x2412

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=405x2425

[MaryCeleste]

31. "soliders" attacked at night is not a massacre, its SOP in every army in the world

but it is a major breach of trade craft by those being attacked were all sleep. Not a lot of verifiable details have come out about it either. There have been claims of being US lead (cadre) and aided by US intel assets. Have to wonder if prisoners were taken or how many FARCs escaped. Raids like that one are rarely 100% effective.

Chavez has claimed in the media to have sent 10 battalions with armor to the border of Colombia, thats more than 10,000 soldiers. He is easily the largest military power in the region. He was not attacked, and the raid into Ecuador was ground troops, most likely less than 100 (single company). Something about disproportionate response. Colombia lacks armor, but if it they go defensive on home terrain, Chavez could be further embarrassed.

I still think the its better than 50-50 that there will be some sort of vengeance attack on Colombia. but I don't think its a certainty. Since Ecuador can't really do it, how Chavez will justify it will be interesting to see.

[EFerrari]

35. Chavez has not been embarrassed. The United States and Colombia

have shown they do not want those hostages released. This was not a raid on FARC per se but yet another attempt to derail the process and it has been recognized as such by a number of countries in that region as well as in Europe and by several humanitarian organizations. If anything, this is another humiliating moment for the United States and their thugs in Colombia or it would be had they any shame.

With respect to details, I think the second link I posted above has visuals of the camp and the casualties after the attack.

Chavez is using economic means to push back:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3212444

[MaryCeleste]

47. His reactions to the claims made after the raid were not calm...

It will be interesting to see how is done with the "data" from the laptops purportedly captured, starting with if they are genuine.

Your comment on the reasons are one of several possibilities. The opportunity to kill a number of FARCs just to get them out of the picture is also a valid possibility. FARC and Reyes are not one of the good guys.

I have seen various reports about the raid, nothing really independently verified. Some of what has been published makes no tactical sense. Moreover there is significant variation among the reports. This is not surprising or an indicator of guile, but expected in a circumstance where there is governments control the scene and official accounts and eye witnesses are of various qualities.

10,000 troops with armor is economic? The economic efforts are also there, but the armor speaks louder. Chavez is the leading military power in the region. Also IIRC Colombia produces a lot of electricity used in Ecuador and other nations. That has to figure into it somewhere as well. Chavez could easily end up hurting Ecuador if things get really stupid.

[EFerrari]

52. There was no reason for Chavez to be calm or to satisfy

a North American audience. Uribe purposefully disrupted (again) the negotiations and has likely killed Betancourt who is gravely ill. The French must be livid right now.

Chavez has exercised a great deal of restraint over time when you consider that Colombian paramilitaries have been caught inside Venezuela with arms and drugs. Instead of being thrown into a prison, they were sent home. That was probably a mistake and may in part account for this different tactic.

It doesn't matter if FARC or Reyes are good or not. They weren't the bad faith actors in this situation.

[MaryCeleste]

105. I am at times amused by some of the statements Chavez makes

clearly intended for internal or regional consumption, but are pushed in the M$M internationally and make it look silly. One would think he would have learned by now.

It doesn't matter if FARC or Reyes are good or not. They weren't the bad faith actors in this situation.

thats a real narrow set of blinders you are wearing.

[EFerrari]

112. Chavez makes me laugh out loud because he says in public

what many people in Latin America think about Bush and American imperialism. That Bush et al try to make him look silly or dangerous is an irony not lost on the international community either.

Regarding FARC, as I said elsewhere, of the three actors (US, Colombia, FARC) they are probably the least brutal.

[Peace Patriot]

100. It was Rafael Correa, President of Ecuador, who called it a "massacre."

How is that "silly spin" "coming from Venezuelan sources"?

-----

"Correa said planes bombed rebels from Ecuador's airspace while they slept and helicopters flew troops into the camp.

'This was a massacre ... We will not allow this to go unpunished,' he said."

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:fmlj9jcsIE0J:www.reuters.com/article/homepageCrisis/idUKN03303873._CH_.242020080303+Correa+Uribe+lied&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=15&gl=us&client=firefox-a

-----

It's mindboggling, the amount of Bushite disinformation that gets repeated here at a supposedly Democratic web site!

[MaryCeleste]

101. First place I saw it was in Venuzuelan sources

And Correa saying it does not make it correct or any less silly. Ive read various write ups on the sequence of events, some of them make no tactical sense, including the one you quote. Not saying anyone is lying (at this point), but there is a lot of conflicting information. The is common an agreed to is more than enough for Ecuador to complain about. Some of the rest of it is smoke, mirrors, machismo, and saber rattling

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

104. The BushCo propaganda found here is, indeed, mindboggling.

Maybe, people forget our own administration has an Info Ministry that out-does pretty much ANY of the most condemned of tyrannies?

:shrug:

[MaryCeleste]

106. Not sure how that is relevant to my comment that the term massacre is hyperbole at best

My other point is that there are so many stories coming out that they can not all be true, more are dubious, and others clearly wrong. Thats not Bushco agitprop, thats common sense, and typical under these circumstances.

[seemslikeadream]

25. I'm not afraid of lions, I taunt them

[EFerrari]

30. You're giving me flashbacks.

:)

[MaryCeleste]

33. In that case please avoid the San Francisco Zoo

[seemslikeadream]

36. I hope you realize that was just a little smilie joke

I really really like lions, really I do

[MaryCeleste]

41. As was mine

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. Who started this little fracas by sending their troops over the border to ECUADOR

Oh yes, COLOMBIA

The US is out of step with the OAC on this one... and so are you by the way

[MaryCeleste]

107. I have not defended Colombia....

I said I expect Chavez to launch a revenge attack and am curious about how he will justify it

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. Why? Because he ordered troops to the border?

So did Ecuador by the way. So which country will launch troops first?

By the way under the UN Charter BOTH Venezuela and Ecuador have a right to self defense, and incidentally so does Colombia. But let repeat this... the AGGRESSOR here was Colombia.. the other two countries, SO FAR, have reinforced their borders.

Oh and this is NOT out of step with South American History EITHER

[MaryCeleste]

117. If there is any military follow up it will be from Chavez

Review the orders of battle at global security, its pretty clear as to why

[seemslikeadream]

8. Chavez Calls Colombia Raid a 'War Crime'

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5igRW2ib_PTdNeoQNn6kOIuk8GGxQD8V7NPTO0

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) — Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez on Wednesday called a Colombian raid that killed two dozen rebels in Ecuador a "war crime," and joined Ecuador's president in demanding international condemnation of the cross-border attack.

In a bid to ease the diplomatic crisis, the Organization of American States approved a resolution earlier Wednesday that called the Colombian military raid a violation of Ecuadorean sovereignty. But President Rafael Correa said the resolution was not enough.

"The OAS resolution pleases us. We are pleased, but not satisfied," Correa said, standing beside Chavez in Caracas. "This isn't going to cool down until the aggressor is condemned."

The watered-down resolution approved by the OAS in Washington declared the attack a violation of Ecuador's sovereignty and called for the OAS Secretary-General Jose Miguel Insulza to lead a delegation to both countries to ease tensions, but stopped short of explicitly condemning the assault.

The United States was the only OAS nation offering Colombia unqualified support.

"We are using all the peaceful and diplomatic channels available for the international community to condemn the aggressor," Ecuador's president said.

"We've cut relations with a government that can't be believed, a treacherous government," Correa said. "We can't have relations ... with that sort of government."

[Judi Lynn]

11. OAS condemns incursion by Colombia

OAS condemns incursion by Colombia
Resolution aims to ease crisis in Andes
By Simon Romero
New York Times News Service / March 6, 2008

CARACAS - The Organization of American States approved a resolution yesterday condemning the Colombian military incursion into Ecuador as a violation of sovereignty, in a move aimed at easing a diplomatic crisis in the Andes involving Colombia, Ecuador, and Venezuela.

The resolution was approved in Washington after talks in which the United States was the hemisphere's only nation explicitly supporting Colombia, a top Bush administration ally. The measure stopped short of condemning Colombia for the raid, which occurred Saturday and killed 24 guerrillas, including a senior commander in Colombia's FARC rebel group.

"We consider this agreement a triumph for the concept that every nation's territory cannot be violated whatever the reason," Maria Isabel Salvador, Ecuador's foreign minister, said in a telephone interview from Washington. "Ecuador is a peaceful country that had been dragged into this unfortunate situation."
(snip)

But distaste persists around the region for the way Colombia carried out the operation by acting without the Ecuadoran government's knowledge about a mile into Ecuador's territory.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/latinamerica/articles/2008/03/06/oas_condemns_incursion_by_colombia/

[Peace Patriot]

12. Please understand WHO the Colombian military murdered--the CHIEF HOSTAGE NEGOTIATOR!

Paul Reyes, the FARC representative, was the person with whom the Presidents of France, Venezuela and Ecuador were negotiating for the release of FARC hostage Ingrid Betancourt (a dual citizen of France and Colombia, and a former presidential candidate), and 11 others. Reyes was likely trying to set up a safe haven inside Ecuador's border to release Betancourt. Uribe and his puppetmasters in the Bush Junta (including Donald Rumsfeld) have denied the FARC any safe ground for hostage releases--even though Uribe issued the initial invitation to Chavez to undertake negotiations. In fact, the first two hostages whom Chavez got released reported that they were under fire as they left Colombia.

Uribe and the Bushites have now destroyed all hope for more hostages releases, and a peaceful settlement to Colombia's FORTY-plus year civil war, by massacring the hostage negotiator and his group in their sleep INSIDE ECUADOR.

Here is what four of the released hostages themselves were saying, days before this murderous raid into Ecuador...

---

Chavez, freed FARC hostages call for political solution to Colombian conflict
February 29th 2008, by Kiraz Janicke - Venezuelanalysis.com
Luis Eladio Pérez and Gloria Polanco speaking at the press conference in Caracas (Reuters)

Caracas, March 1, 2008 (venezuelanalysis.com) - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has called for international mediation group to negotiate a humanitarian accord in neighboring Colombia, after a successful Venezuelan led humanitarian mission secured the release of four former legislators held by the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC), on Wednesday.

During a telephone call to state owned VTV Thursday, Chavez indicated that France, Ecuador, Brazil and Argentina as well as the Organization of American States support such a move. It is "essential" that Venezuela is part of any international mediation group, because "the FARC have demonstrated that they don't believe in anyone else," he added.

In a communiqué, released minutes after the hostage handover the FARC said this would be the last unilateral hostage release. The FARC reiterated their longstanding call for a military free zone as a precondition for any further negotiations for a humanitarian exchange of 40 remaining high profile hostages for 500 imprisoned guerrillas. However, the Colombian government immediately rejected this proposal.

Chavez said the desire for peace by the majority of Colombians and that the pressure of world opinion would force Uribe to change his position.

"President Uribe is going to have to change his position. Everybody is in agreement except for Uribe, " he declared.

Speaking at a press conference in Caracas on Thursday night, the former Colombian legislators, Luis Eladio Pérez, Jorge Gechem, Orlando Beltrán and Gloria Polanco, also spoke out in favor of a military free zone to facilitate a humanitarian exchange.

"I publicly challenge President Alvaro Uribe to demonstrate the success of his policy of democratic security and clear the military from the municipalities of Pradera and Florida and after 45 days the Armed Forces can recuperate this territory," Perez said after his liberation. "The solution is political, Mr. President Uribe," he repeated twice during the press conference.

"If you persist in the foolishness of insisting on a military rescue you are going to receive, Mr President Uribe, 40 or 50 corpses. It is absurd to think of a military rescue with the conditions that we had in captivity. There would be a massacre," Pérez stressed.

He revealed that the four recently liberated ex legislators have a proposal to present "to President Uribe, the President (of France Nicholas) Sarkozy and, of course, to President (of Venezuela, Hugo) Chavez." This proposal would only be made public after the three heads of state had been informed, he said.

Pérez who classified the FARC as a "political military group who use terrorist practices" also referred to former Colombian presidential candidate Ingrid Betancourt, captured by the guerrillas in 2001, who he said is in a "very bad state of health."

In a message released in 2003 demonstrating Betancourt's proof of life, the former presidential candidate indicated that she was opposed any form of military rescue, as she feared a repeat of the tragedy that occurred in May that year when ex governor of Antioquia, Gilberto Echeverri, and the del ex Defense Minister, Guillermo Gaviria, died during a botched military rescue ordered by Uribe.

Betancourt maintains this position Perez said, however she is also conscious "of the high risk and lack of commitment of the President of the Republic."

In contrast Betancourt calls for a political solution to the conflict based on the Geneva Convention and believes that "fundamentally President Uribe has to recognize the political status of the FARC guerrillas," Perez said.

Pérez also affirmed that after an attempted escape, Betancourt, "remained chained up during the night," and her captors, "humiliated her, obliged her to walk barefoot, tied her to trees and rationed her food."

Ex congressman Orlando Beltrán condemned "all terrorist acts, wherever they come from. I condemn the terrorism of the FARC, of the paramilitaries and the terrorism of the State." He pointed out that Colombia "is the only country in the world that has disappeared an entire political movement, more than six thousand leaders of Unión Patriótica were disappeared, to speak only of this case."

Under a previous peace accord in the 1980's the FARC demobilized and formed Unión Patriótica, however after they laid down their arms thousands of former guerrillas were hunted down by paramilitaries, backed by the Colombian state, and massacred, forcing them back into the armed struggle.

Beltrán added that the Colombian State "has to assume responsibility and understand that they must create the conditions to achieve a humanitarian accord. I don't understand why, when make these handovers in a unilateral manner, they say they are not going to clear the military from a centimeter of the national territory."

Gloria Polanco asserted, "It is necessary to reach the heart of President Uribe, to speak to him, to explain, because he has to understand that if he does not clear the military from Pradera and Florida, which is what the FARC ask, our comrades will die in captivity."

"I am asking for a humanitarian accord, because they have to place value on life, not on a piece of land, not on a piece of territory," she said.

All four ex-legislators confirmed that they would participate in an international day of action organized by human rights organizations on March 6 in protest against paramilitary violence in Colombia. Uribe has condemned the protest scheduled to take place in some 150 cities around the world, claiming it is organized by the FARC.

(emphasis added)
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/3213
(Note: Venezuela Analysis is a Fair Use web site.)

---------------------------------------

We need to understand that what we are looking at here is Oil War II: South America, orchestrated by...

"The Smart Way to Beat Tyrants Like Chávez," by Donald Rumsfeld, 12/1/07
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/30/AR2007113001800.html

[seemslikeadream]

24. Thank you Peace Patriot

[FalconsRule]

26. Was he also a chief

hostage taker?

[EFerrari]

29. You do realize that compared with our own hostage taking,

not to mention the Colombian government's when people are lucky enough not to be butchered outright,FARC looks like a bunch of peaceniks?

[FalconsRule]

34. Oh, ok.

Sorry. I didn't know that it was ok for FARC to do it since others do. My bad.

[EFerrari]

37. It's not bad, just hypocritical to criticize FARC when

our own record is worse and when they were trying to RELEASE hostages.

[FalconsRule]

38. "Trying" to release hostages THEY hold...

I'll help them...gather the hostages in a single location. Leave the area, call the Colombian government 12 hours later with the location of the hostages. There. "Trying" is over.

[EFerrari]

40. The last time there was a release, the Colombian government

FIRED on the hostages trying to get to safety.

It has to be done carefully so the Uribe government doesn't kill them and blame FARC. It's a good thing those people aren't relying on you for their safety.

You really don't get it. Uribe needs FARC to continue to get his brazilion dollars of your tax money. They don't want the hostages freed.

[FalconsRule]

42. That's

why FARC brings the hostages to a central location without telling the government until AFTER they have departed the area. They could even notify the press, and make sure they are on-site, to ensure a propaganda victory, even before they notify the government. FARC could release the hostages easily. They just don't want to.

[EFerrari]

44. That's absurd.

[FalconsRule]

45. Not at all.

If FARC wanted to release the hostages safely they could. The choose not to.

[EFerrari]

46. You are aware that they already have released some, aren't you?

And you are aware that at several points in this process, the Uribe government has thrown wrenches in to slow everything down? Uribe outdid himself this time.

[FalconsRule]

48. Some is not all.

The FARC would actually come of better if they were to release all their hostages. Sometimes it's good to have a little moral capital.

[seemslikeadream]

53. South American "death squad" strategy during the Reagan years.

South American "death squad" strategy during the Reagan years.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dr_DpryPCks

[FalconsRule]

54. Has no bearing whatsoever

on the FARC releasing hostages today. But thanks for the link.

[seemslikeadream]

56. oh of course not, history means nothing

a bit of reading would help

[FalconsRule]

58. A. That was a video

B. History doesn't prevent the FARC from releasing innocent hostages.

[seemslikeadream]

61. I figured you may find it easier than reading

[FalconsRule]

63. Nope.

I work differently than you...thanks for trying though.

[seemslikeadream]

65. I read quite a bit

I just figured you didn't

[FalconsRule]

68. I figured you were

just projecting.

[seemslikeadream]

70. Project this

http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/editorials/103

Torture, Murder, Bush, Kissinger and The Mothers of the Disappeared in Argentina: America on the Brink of Horror

[FalconsRule]

74. So relevant

to the FARC holding innocent hostages...how could I have missed it?

[seemslikeadream]

76. HISTORY SIR

can not live or learn without it

[FalconsRule]

79. Actually, one can,

especially when the history cited is not particularly germane to the topic at hand.

[seemslikeadream]

82. You crack me up

[FalconsRule]

83. Oh, I'm way too late for that.

[seemslikeadream]

75. It maybe a good idea for you to watch this

I know it is so very difficult to watch a video but you really just may learn something


Brian Springer - Spin - A surreal expose of media-constructed reality.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7344181953466797353&q=spin&total=137490&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

[EFerrari]

57. Of course it does. We're still funding, training and arming

criminal butchers and spinning their behavior to protect American investments. That is the context of this situation.

[FalconsRule]

60. And that gives FARC

rationale for keeping innocents as hostages?

Relative moralism is such a wonderful thing.

[seemslikeadream]

64. Did you ever hear the name Pinochet?

[FalconsRule]

67. Again

nothing to do with FARC in Colombia.

[seemslikeadream]

71. well there you go not learning from history...........

again

[FalconsRule]

72. LMAO

[EFerrari]

66. I'm not excusing FARC although you seem to want me to.

Without our policy in Latin America, FARC would probably not have needed to develop a military wing in the first place.

[FalconsRule]

69. You are excusing FARC

otherwise you'd agree that they should release their innocent hostages ASAP.

[EFerrari]

73. FARC is not the obstacle here. n/t

[FalconsRule]

77. And you JUST can't bring yourself to condemn them

can you?

[seemslikeadream]

78. When did you become so very interested in South America?

yesterday?

Or was that Feb 18th

[FalconsRule]

81. Latin America

Areas Studies Major in college. Granted, that was a long time ago!

[seemslikeadream]

84. Was that the School of the Americas?

[FalconsRule]

85. You funny, GI

[EFerrari]

87. More absurdity.

[seemslikeadream]

89. Is that our job?

[FalconsRule]

90. Obviously not. LOL

[seemslikeadream]

91. It's worked out extremely well in Iraq, hasn't it?

Afghanistan? Haiti? Belgrade? Somalia?


Grenada? :rofl:

[FalconsRule]

92. Your non sequiters are the best ever

[seemslikeadream]

93. I'm gonna try and make this really really simple for you, like a kids book?

[FalconsRule]

95. Yes, by all means,

use your preferred reading material. I'm sure you like lots of pictures.

[seemslikeadream]

96. I bid you ado, my final words Jeux sans frontieres

Jeux sans frontieres



Hans plays with lotte, lotte plays with jane
Jane plays with willi, willi is happy again
Suki plays with leo, sacha plays with britt
Adolf builts a bonfire, enrico plays with it
-whistling tunes we hid in the dunes by the seaside
-whistling tunes were kissing baboons in the jungle
Its a knockout
If looks could kill, they probably will
In games without frontiers-war without tears
Games without frontiers-war without tears

Jeux sans frontieres
Jeux sans frontieres
Jeux sans frontieres

Andre has a red flag, chiang chings is blue
They all have hills to fly them on except for lin tai yu
Dressing up in costumes, playing silly games
Hiding out in tree-tops shouting out rude names
-whistling tunes we hide in the dunes by the seaside
-whistling tunes we piss on the goons in the jungle
Its a knockout
If looks could kill they probably will
In games without frontiers-wars without tears
If looks could kill they probably will
In games without frontiers-war without tears
Games without frontiers-war without tears

Jeux sans frontieres
Jeux sans frontieres
Jeux sans frontieres




They Thought They Were Free - Read by Dave Emory

The Germans, 1933-45

Excerpt from pages 166-73 of "They Thought They Were Free" First published in 1955

By Milton Mayer

But Then It Was Too Late

"What no one seemed to notice," said a colleague of mine, a philologist, "was the ever widening gap, after 1933, between the government and the people. Just think how very wide this gap was to begin with, here in Germany. And it became always wider. You know, it doesn’t make people close to their government to be told that this is a people’s government, a true democracy, or to be enrolled in civilian defense, or even to vote. All this has little, really nothing, to do with knowing one is governing.

"What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

....

"Yes," I said.

"You see," my colleague went on, "one doesn’t see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, THE SHOCK DOCTRINE will join with you in resisting somehow. You don’t want to act, or even talk, alone; you don’t want to ‘go out of your way to make trouble.’ Why not?—Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.

"Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, ‘everyone’ is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there would be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences; in Germany, outside the great cities, perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in your own community, you speak privately to your colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, ‘It’s not so bad’ or ‘You’re seeing things’ or ‘You’re an alarmist.’



Michael Parenti - Terrorism, Globalism & Conspiracy

"Coincidence Theory: By shear chance things just happen repeatedly and coincidentally to benefit their interests without any conscious connivance by them, which is most uncanny. There is also: Stupidity Theory, Innocence Theory, Momentary Aberration Theory, Incompetence Theory, Unintended Consequences Theory and Innocent Cultural Proclivities Theory."

- Michael Parenti

[Peace Patriot]

113. The last time FARC tried to demobilize, and join the political process, the fascists

murdered four hundred of their elected representatives, and tortured and mass murdered thousands of their supporters and voters.

If you try to do anything in Colombia--say, organize a union to represent your interests--you can get chainsawed and your body parts thrown into mass graves. Thousands of union organizers, political leftists, small peasant farmers, human rights workers and journalists have been killed, merely for exercising their civil rights. And this has been going on for more than FORTY years. Colombia has one of the worst human rights records in the world!

These are the reasons WHY there is a FARC in Colombia. Leftists die there, just because they are leftists. And I can understand how people of conscience and sensibility, and people who care for their communities, can take up arms and fight. I don't condone killings or kidnappings. But I know--from the human rights reports, and human rights groups are unanimous on this point--that the carnage is mostly the government's doing.

Is THAT relevant? You dismiss the history of U.S. horrors elsewhere in Latin America. How about our CURRENT horrors in Colombia--paid for by us, backed by our government? The Colombian security forces and closely tied rightwing paramilitaries have been on a rampage of horror throughout the Bush Junta--not to mention Drummond Coal, Chiquita, Occidental Petroleum, and other corporations who hire these killers to take care of their labor problems.

This is NOT a one-sided situation of "terrorists" vs. a good government. The government forces are the "terrorists"--much more so than the leftist guerrillas, according to objective accounts. This is a CIVIL WAR. Harm has been done on both sides--although the poor of Colombia have taken the worst ravages of torture, murder and brutal repression and exploitation, at the hands of the rich and powerful, backed with billions of dollars from U.S. taxpayers, through Bushite fingers. How do you end it? By a policy of extermination? Or by means of social justice, fairness, democracy and transparency--as in Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador and Argentina, and throughout South America, with so many good governments coming to power?

The killing will never end, in Colombia--until someone STOPS THE KILLING. That is what the Presidents of Venezuela, Ecuador, France and Argentina were trying to do--first with UNILATERAL hostage releases by FARC (no conditions), and coming fast upon that, talks for a peaceful settlement of this long, long conflict.

I can imagine how Chavez feels right now, having advised FARC to release hostages with no conditions and no safe haven. No wonder he is angry. What Colombia did--and puppetmaster Rumsfeld--was foul and dirty, beyond belief.

You don't end a civil war, and stop the killing, by MORE killing--especially when so many steps toward peace were in motion. You hold back. You stop the name-calling. You cease fire--and let events like the hostage releases take place in an atmosphere conducive to further talks. You don't go in blazing with bombs and guns. You don't say one thing--assure hostage safety--then do another--fire on the hostages as they leave, in hopes of upping your kill "score." Unless you hate peace. Unless you have motives for war--billions of dollars in military aid, those juicy oil fields right across the border.

Your approach is simplistic, like Bush's, and pro-slaughter like Rumsfeld's. You want to place blame, and then what? Kill some more? What good does it do to say that it's all the FARC's fault, and if only they would release all hostages now, the "problem" would go away? Do you know what would happen if they did that, without a ceasefire? Uribe and Rumsfeld would simply nuke the 20% of the Colombia where FARC operates. They're now talking about FARC having uranium. They claim they have "evidence." And do you know what comes next? 1.2 million innocent people die.

This is a complex, 40+ year conflict. The Bush Junta and Rumsfeld are trying to turn it to their purpose--getting the oil. They should be standing between these warring parties, brokering a peace--like Chavez, Correa, Sarkovy, Fernandez and others have been trying to do. That is good government. What the Bushites are doing--using their tool, Uribe-- is bad, bad government. Like them, you accuse and you demand, and you understand nothing. I don't know what your motives are, in pushing this narrow little point of yours, over and over, and refusing to see anything else. But I know what their motives are. We have had plenty of illustration of that. They don't want concessions. They don't want to bargain. They didn't want Iraq to disarm--and they refused proof of it when they did disarm. They didn't want Saddamn to step down. They refused that offer. They didn't want Osama bin Laden to surrender for questioning and trial. They refused an offer by the Taliban to turn him over. They let him escape at Tora Bora. They want war profits and OIL! It does no good to surrender to them. They will kill you and millions of innocents ANYWAY, because their object is NOT justice, NOR peace. They object is war profits and OIL!

Narrow little arguments like yours are how these warmongers create their justifications for mass murder and massive thievery. They are psyops and disinformation. I doubt that you can see that. I hope others can. The Bushites DON'T CREATE PEACE. They don't create safety. They abhor social justice. They want to profiteer from war, and get the oil. And THAT is why they are backing Colombia and orchestrating its every move--to destabilize the region, to take billions more out of our empty pockets and give it to the manufacturers of war, and to install fascist regimes in Venezuela, Ecuador, Bolivia and Argentina, who will NOT use oil profits to bootstrap the poor.

[MaryCeleste]

32. Who also may have taken the hostages. Reyes and FARC are not good guys

Not sure there are any in that region these days.

[EFerrari]

14. This is the account the VIO sent yesterday. Actions planned today.

VIO Venezuela News and Action

VENEZUELA NEWS & ACTION - March 5, 2008

COLOMBIAN INCURSION INTO ECUADOR KILLS 20, SPURS STRONG RESPONSE BY REGION

Last weekend, the Colombian government led a military attack on the FARC in Ecuadorean territory, killing more than 20 persons including a key FARC negotiator involved in recent hostage releases. Since then, most news coverage has focused on the reactions of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez and to a lesser extent Ecuadorean President Rafael Correa, excluding the actions of the Colombian military and its president.

Colombia's raid in Ecuador killed Raul Reyes, the FARC's second-in-command and a historical actor in efforts for peace. He had been working toward a humanitarian accord brokered by President Chavez and was in the process of negotiating the release of 12 more hostages -- including ex-presidential candidate Ingrid Betancourt -- with the French government. His death comes shortly after hostage negotiations brokered by Chavez yielded the release of a total of 6 Colombian citizens. Many anaylsts suggest that this most recent action by the Colombian government was meant to bring an abrupt halt to future bids for peace.

Following the bombing, Ecuador and Venezuela both recalled their diplomats from Colombia and stationed troops along their borders. Considering that Venezuela has been accused of harboring the FARC by the U.S. and Colombia, it seemed a justifiable preventative move. To date, Venezuela has moved 10 batallions to the border, totalling about 9,000 troops. To hear more on this debate you can listen to or watch the Jim Lehrer News Hour special on this on our website.

After the aerial attack, 60 Colombian ground troops further violated Ecuador's sovereignty and raided the rebel camp, according to President Correa in Ecuador. He called this "unacceptable aggression." President Uribe then alleged that evidence was found at the site -- on still intact computers -- indicating payment by Chavez to the FARC. To date, no verifiable proof has been released. The Miami Herald recognized today that "There was no independent verification of the documents." The AP also reported that "the Colombian military provided no proof of payment." Yet, the press has proceeded to report this news as though it is fact. The Venezuelan government has consistently denied the accusations, calling them "laughable."

Tensions were brought to an all time high early this week when Colombian President Alvaro Uribe accused President Chavez of supporting "genocide," citing the alleged funding to the FARC that still remains to be proven. The Colombian president now plans to bring Chavez before the International Criminal Court. While this move makes for great headlines, it does not accurately depict what has been occurring in Colombia and the region in the last few decades, nor the actors that have been involved.

OAS, REGIONAL LEADERS & HUMAN RIGHTS GROUPS QUESTION COLOMBIA'S ACTIONS

Yesterday, at a special session of the OAS, Ecuador asked countries to condemn the Colombian raid on its territory and demand an investigation. Those who questioned the Colombian incursion include Italy, France, Argentina, Brazil, Chile, Peru, Mexico and Venezuela. France's foreign minister said, "It is not good news that Reyes, the man to whom we talked and we had contact, has been killed." On the other hand, in the U.S., President Bush said he supports Colombia unconditionally and used the opportunity to push the US-Colombia free trade agreement.

U.S. Congressman Eliot Engel, Chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere, sent a letter calling on the OAS Secretary General José Miguel Insulza and Permanent Council Chairman Cornelius Smith to send a high-level delegation to the Andean region to negotiate a reduction in tensions between Ecuador, Colombia and Venezuela. The letter - signed by a bipartisan group of 14 House members - also calls on the OAS to put in place a better process of crisis communication between the three governments. The letter fails to condemn the Colombian government for their violation of international treaties.

According to the Latin American Association for Human Rights (ALDHU), an international NGO based in Ecuador that works with over 20 nations, the attacks were "at odds with the most elemental principles of International Humanitarian Law." Juan de Dios Parra, the general secretary of ALDHU, called the events an "invasion" and a "massacre" which "violated all the international norms regulating the respect for borders." Colombian human rights groups also opposed the actions of the Uribe government and said it should be held accountable for what Human Rights Watch has called "one of the worst human rights records in the world."

WHAT YOU CAN DO

Contact your Congressional Representatives in the House and Senate and ask them to:

- Condemn the illegal actions of the Colombian government in Ecuador, which endangers the entire Andean Region.

- Demand that Colombia take a politically negotiated path toward peace in the region. No more U.S. military funding for Colombia.

- You can also write to your local news outlets to set the record straight on the current situation in the Andean Region.

- Join tomorrow's actions for "Peace in Colombia and the Andean Region" by participating in local actions across the U.S. For more information visit here. http://soaw.org/article.php?id=1664

[AlphaCentauri]

98. kick n/t

[Selatius]

20. Colombia should rightly be condemned. Wars have started this way.

They should've asked Ecuador for assistance in dealing with FARC if they wanted it done right, but they simply sent troops in. It is this kind of action that would've sparked a war if it happened in Europe 1914.

[FalconsRule]

39. I agree

Colombia was wrong to attack inside of Ecuador's borders.

They need to work out a way to eleminate FARC with the help of their neighbors, not by attacking them.

[Johnyawl]

43. FARC - and others like them - cannot be eliminated...

...as long as conditions remain unchanged in places like Colombia.

[MaryCeleste]

49. What do you do if you believe that the neighbors are supporting them

Its the current claim, valid or not is still TBD

[FalconsRule]

50. I think you attempt to

work out a non-military solution first. A strike into a foreign country should be a last resort. I don't think the Colombians exercised all other options first.

[EFerrari]

55. If Uribe had something like that on Chavez or Correa in reality

the Noise Machine would be carrying screaming headlines. They don't have anything.

[seemslikeadream]

62. THEY CAN JUST MAKE SHIT UP

[EFerrari]

80. The Pentagram probably has a whole Let's Make Shit Up About Chavez Unit. nt

[seemslikeadream]

86. Shall we?

[EFerrari]

94. I condemn him!

lol

[seemslikeadream]

97. DAMN YOU HUGO!!!!

[MaryCeleste]

110. That is an awesom pic!!!

[MaryCeleste]

102. Right branch, wrong agency

Try elsewhere in the Executive Branch, one of the intelligence agencies or State.

[EFerrari]

111. It's a popular hobby. We know the WH does, Rumsfeld had that OpEd

the weekend of the referendum, State astro turfed the idea that the same wouldn't be monitored which was untrue, La CIA (as it is affectionately known) and DEA both have presences in Colombia so if they aren't, they're lagging.

Doesn't the Pentagon run the School of the Americas? They recruit spies there as well as "train".

It would probably be easier to count the agencies who don't have a LMSUAC unit. :)

[MaryCeleste]

109. Everybody makes shit up

which is why I take a critical look at both sides in this one,and both sides have holes in their stories and actions.

- The whole "we found data that says..." stinks
- The description of the attack by some people (including Correa) is tactical nonsense
- Colombia originally claiming it was hot pursuit was nonsense
- Chavez moving 10,000 soldiers with armor to the border was nonsense (he wasn't attacked)

There is more than enough manure to go around, and not a lot of good guys in the scenario.

[seemslikeadream]

51. John Negroponte: Democracy is a threat to America

http://youtube.com/watch?v=cK2wDEKP2JE

[ReformedChris]

59. Expect a US Carrier Group to arrive in the area to "Monitor The Situation and Developments".

US Power Play will show American allegiance to Columbia and try to send a message to Venezuela and Ecuador. This situation will stay warm for a while and cool down over time.

[MaryCeleste]

108. And a sub with tomahawks is already "in range"

Think of Somalia

[seemslikeadream]

88. Why does Turkey PKK and the Kurds come to mind?

[superkia]

99. The U.S. supports their puppet in Columbia not only because of...

drugs but the main purpose reason is Venezuela is a oil rich country that wont go along with the elites new world order agenda. Just like Saddam, the U.S. wants to take out Chavez and Ahmadinejad and replace them with corrupt puppets that will go along with the plan. Our government will eventually take them out and its not because our government says they are terrorist nations either, that is just the excuse they use to do whatever they want. Take our freedoms, blow up countries, you name it. Reminds you of Germany and what took place after The Reichstag fire. They even had their own scapegoats for the fire, like we had with JFK and now with the 9/11 tragedy.



Meanwhile, investigation of the Reichstag Fire continued, with the Nazis eager to uncover Comintern complicity. In early March 1933, three men were arrested who were to play pivotal roles during the Leipzig Trial, known also as "Reichstag Fire Trial," namely three Bulgarians: Georgi Dimitrov, Vasil Tanev and Blagoi Popov. The Bulgarians were known to the Prussian police as senior Comintern operatives, but the police had no idea how senior they were: Dimitrov was head of all Comintern operations in Western Europe.



"Recent research has confirmed the widely-held belief at the time, that the Nazis organized the arson attempt in order to seize power."


History is repeating itself but now its here in the best country in the world...for some!

[Peace Patriot]

114. For those who wish to get informed on this subject....

Recommended web sites for both the current situation, and background:
http://www.colombiajournal.org/
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com
also www.BoRev.net

Colombia Journal's current series of articles is excellent:
The Upside-Down World of Bush and Uribe: Slandering Chávez and the FARC
The Death of a Colombian Guerrilla Leader: Diplomatic Distractions and the Consolidation of the Para-Military State
Uribe’s Colombia is Destabilizing a New Latin America: A Response to the Murder of FARC Commander Raúl Reyes in Ecuador
Colombia Assassinates FARC Commander Raúl Reyes

Venezuela Analysis has:
Uribe’s Colombia is destabilizing a New Latin America
Plan Colombia: The Real Destabilizing Force in South America
OAS supports Ecuador, Venezuela on "path of true peace"

And BoRev (=Bolivarian Revolution), well, you gotta see it for yourself. (Hint: It's the "Monty Python's Flying Circus of South America.")

[seemslikeadream]

116. Look who was just arrested

Victor Bout!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2969379

funny they say he was selling arms to FARC