SFPD: Zoo Attack Victim Admits Taunting Tiger

[warrior1]

http://cbs13.com/national/tiger.attack.affadavit.2.632801.html


One of the three victims of San Francisco Zoo tiger attack was intoxicated and admitted to yelling and waving at the animal while standing atop the railing of the big cat enclosure, police said in court documents filed Thursday.

Paul Dhaliwal, 19, told the father of Carlos Sousa Jr., 17, who was killed, that the three yelled and waved at the tiger but insisted they never threw anything into its pen to provoke the cat, according to a search warrant affidavit obtained by the San Francisco Chronicle.

"As a result of this investigation, (police believe) that the tiger may have been taunted/agitated by its eventual victims," according to Inspector Valerie Matthews, who prepared the affidavit. Police believe that "this factor contributed to the tiger escaping from its enclosure and attacking its victims," she said.
snip
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And the tiger lost her life.

[chelsea0011]

1. taunting or not the zoo failed to protect the public but,

am I correct that this tiger escaped and selectively hunted down the parties that were teasing her?

[Lars39]

3. They were probably the only people dripping blood at that time.

[hobbit709]

4. That appears to be the case.

when I was five years old I learned about teasing animals-I got bit on the nose. 50 odd years later I still don't tease them.

[RebelOne]

8. Yes, I learned the hard way, too.

When I was about 7 or 8 years old, at the circus, there was an elephant chained. There was a crowd around the elephant. I picked up a stick and hit the elephant on the leg. Well, that elephant searched the crowd, found me and whacked me on the head with its trunk. I deserved it. What a brat I was.

[earth mom]

Elephants are smart-love them! It disgusts me that the GOP uses them as a mascot. A pig would fit

them better! :puke:

[bean fidhleir]

37. Sadly for them, pigs are also smart. Read Temple Grandin's books

on the subject of non-human intelligence.

(edit to fix spelling - I often want to spell her family name 'Grandon' for some reason)

[Hoof Hearted]

38. Temple Grandin has books? I wish I had more time to read.

She's a remarkable story in herself, an extraordinary person doing difficult work I wish wasn't necessary.

[bean fidhleir]

51. She wishes her work wasn't necessary, too.

She remarks that she's tried to turn veg for ethical reasons, but each time got sick and had to revert. She hypothesizes that there's individual variation in how flexible people can be in their diet.

[earth mom]

39. I love Temple Grandin....

but honestly, even though reading is a passion of mine, I had a tough time reading any of her books.

Love who & what she is about though. I may try again to read her books. Her message is important. :hi:

[bean fidhleir]

54. I've only read one, so far, but found it very readable

It's Animals In Translation http://www.amazon.com/Animals-Translation-Mysteries-Autism-Behavior/dp/0156031442/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200674303&sr=8-2

It has a lot of citations and references, but I found that they added to the value (perhaps because many of the cites were from my field). My main regret was that it doesn't have much about cats. A fair bit about dogs, but mostly about farm animals or non-humans generally.

[Kingshakabobo]

60. Hey! Pigs are smart!

[atreides1]

5. Not according to the standards set.

The height of the wall was a recommendation, not a requirement according to some of the stories that I've read. And as we all know recommendations don't carry the same weight as requirements, they're sort of like voluntary policing of companies that pollute the environment.

After countless inspections the zoo has kept its accreditation, which would suggest that the rules about the height of the wall were not written in stone, so to speak.

[TwilightGardener]

2. Poor cat.

[BoneDaddy]

9. Poor cat?

How about poor families? I don't blame the cat but I certainly do not give it a pass. It killed someone.

[TwilightGardener]

10. "Give it a pass"? It's an ANIMAL. Animals aren't guilty or innocent, they're

just acting on instinct. They can't reason, they can't choose how to react, they do what they're born to do. It's a shame the cat was able to escape the enclosure--that's the zoo's failing. And as for the guys taunting it--stupid and cruel.

[BoneDaddy]

12. That still does not excuse it from killing someone

and deserve this incredible outpouring of sympathy and none for the men who died or their families. If this occurred out in the wild, what would be your reaction?

And, although, these idiots are accountable for their part in it, taunting an animal does not deserve death as a punishment.

All parties involved are accountable.

[TwilightGardener]

14. "Excuse it from killing someone"--that's what tigers DO! That's what they're born to do!

They are killing machines! Tigers and other predatory animals are neither good nor bad, they're simply a force of nature that sometimes kills humans, like tornados and floods. It's an unfortunate incident that the zoo is primarily responsible for. I didn't say anyone "deserved" to die, it's just a tragedy all around, and the cat was killed for doing what it does naturally. People do stupid things, not enough precautions are taken to protect people from the effects of people doing stupid things, and terrible things happen.

[BoneDaddy]

20. That response is very different from

"poor cat".

[TwilightGardener]

25. I feel bad for the cat. We as humans are responsible for protecting

animals, especially when we take one out of its natural environment and subject it to unnatural stressors. The zoo did not adequately protect either the animal or the public.

[mondo joe]

29. Me too. The cat didn't choose to be in a zoo. It will now be killed because it did

exactly what it's supposed to do, because it was misused.

[BoneDaddy]

30. No disagreement from me there

if people really read my post you would see I wasn't blaming the cat solely. I think the men who were taunting are accountable, I think the zoo is accountable and I think the tiger is too (regardless of whether it is aware that it is accountable or not). It killed a person.

If the family dog snaps and attacks the 3 year old, do we say the dog should be spared because it doesn't realize it's actions? No. We can certainly see the tragedy of it, but the dog would need to be put down.

[TwilightGardener]

34. I'm not arguing that the zoo should have let the cat live. Just remarking

on the sadness of the situation, that humans failed in their responsibilities as supposedly superior creatures (and that includes not taunting and harrassing a large predatory animal), and because of these failings, the cat acted as he was programmed to do, and a tragedy happened. The example of putting down a dog, as you describe, is not really comparable. Dogs are domesticated, they are bred to be our companions, and when they are found to be unsafe, then they must be put to sleep, because they are incompatible with domestic life but also can't live in the wild. Tigers are wild, undomesticated animals--apples and oranges.

[Hoof Hearted]

42. You can't "blame the cat" at all. Don't you get it?

What do you mean you can't blame the cat solely? That's utter nonsense. The cat is ruled primarily by two things, instinct and motivation. The stupid, stupid, boys provided the motivation and the instinct was already there. It's like dying under a vending machine because you were trying to rock a few quarters out of it. Sometimes some people pay for abject stupidity with their lives.

[BoneDaddy]

57. It is called cause and effect

regardless of it's instict and motivation, which means that it is accountable.

If my son gets bit by my dog for no reason, the dog is accountable and I get rid of it. What part do you not understand.

[mondo joe]

61. Sorry, but no. Accountability requires agency. The tiger is no more accountable than an avalanche

is.You can get rid of your dog for biting your kid. Or because it stinks. Or because it's more trouble than is worth to you. Or because you're in the mood. That you can get rid of your dog doesn't make it accountable.

[Hoof Hearted]

75. The crack of my butt has seen more light today than you are apparently capable of receiving.

Do you hold a two month-old baby "accountable" for pooping in his diaper? No, and in that spirit, I will no longer hold you accountable for your responses.

Good day.

[Scout]

79. what if the dog HAS a reason for biting your son, then what?

i'm sick of the animals always being the ones who are made to suffer, or be murdered because some stupid human made the animal react and hurt them.

[AlGore-08.com]

76. Dogs and tigers are apples and oranges. Dogs are the result of selective breeding that allows them

to learn and follow human commands easily. Most dogs, even many who were born wild, can be taught not to bite humans and other animals. It makes more sense to blame a dog's training instead of the dog when one bites a child.

[mondo joe]

16. I have to say, I think just being a tiger excuses the animal from human conventions.

Tigers are not accountable.

But that doesn't mean they are protected from human choices either.

[BoneDaddy]

22. Of course they are different from humans

but it is still accountable in that it killed a person. Doing what it does naturally does not mean that killing it was not the appropriate thing to do in the situation.

[mondo joe]

27. No, tigers are not "accountable". It will likely suffer as a result of what happened,

but it's not "accountable" because it has no agency in the whole affair.

Killing was exactly appropriate - for a tiger. It didn't break any law.

[BoneDaddy]

31. It has agency merely by it's actions, regardless of whether or not

it is aware of it's actions. Now we can go on a long discussion on the evils of zoo's but even if a tiger killed a human in the wild, it is the one responsible for it's actions, regardless of whether or not it recognizes it or it is it's natural behavior.

[mondo joe]

33. Nonsense. I'm sorry, but that's nonsense. If the animal was ACCOUNTABLE it should get its day in

court.

But it's not - it has no agency.

[BoneDaddy]

55. Accountability

on a cause and effect basis, not as a legal entity. Obviously the tiger is not a human and cannot be seen in the same light, but on a very basic level, it's actions determined a response.

[mondo joe]

59. There is no cause-and-effect accountability. Accountability refers to having

responsibility, of which tigers have none.

The fact that it can be killed as a result of what it did doesn't make it accountable - it has no concept of consequence.

[BoneDaddy]

73. A man is in the bush, walking along and a tiger jumps out and kills him

what is accountable for his death? The sun, the stars, the man, the bush?

No the tiger is accountable for his death. The tiger killed him.

I think our problem is a the definition of terms. I am talking about it in the most basic terms where you are talking about it from a more human legal sense that requires an understanding of what one has done, which obviously the tiger, as an animal, is not capable of doing.

[mondo joe]

74. What is accountable for his death? Life. Nature. Human biology.

In short: nothing in your scenario is accountable for his death, as described. Accountability requires responsibility.

If someone let the tiger loose, they are accountable. If the man knew there was a tiger on the loose he might be accountable.

The language problem, IMO, is your use of ACCOUNTABLE to mean THE CAUSE OF.

[frylock]

46. the cat is dead..

the cops killed it.

[mondo joe]

58. Understood. Thanks. NT

[BuelahWitch]

69. The tiger was shot the same night

So she has already suffered the consequences of her actions. :cry:

[panzerfaust]

48. So, what was the "Appropriate" thing for the Tiger to do ... ??

How can the Tiger, in any sense, be held "accountable?"

Even our courts do not hold humans who kill other humans "accountable" unless they can be shown to possess the ability to distinguish right from wrong actions.

[The Stranger]

17. It amazes me when I read a post such as yours.

If this occurred out in the wild, it would be the natural order of things. Tigers are evolved over millions of years to hunt. They are predators at the top of the food chain and arrived there after a millions-year fight.

Then some people thought they could put them in cages and admire them. They are out of their habitat and often seriously damaged as a result of this imprisonment. When they get out of the cage and do what they are supposed to do, they are supposed to be "accountable"? Are you fucking kidding me?

Trying to assign blame to a tiger for doing what it is designed to do is like trying to assign blame to a car for running over someone.

It amazes me to read some of the posts here on DU. Fucking amazing.

[mondo joe]

19. It seems to me rather lke blaming Niagara Falls for some fool crossing the safety

barriers and falling in to his death.

"Sure, the kid was wrong, but I am not letting the Falls off the hook completely."

[BoneDaddy]

26. I find it amazing

how people put animals above humans. I find it amazing that people such as yourself will reserve sympathy for a tiger and none for grieving families of a a man who acted very irresponsibly.

If a tiger kills someone, it kills someone. If it did it out in Africa, the tribal people would do their best to hunt the animal down.

I never said the animal had the human trait of premeditated murder or is able to understand the ramifications of it's actions, I was responding to the people who put animal life over human life and feel somehow justified by it.

[The Stranger]

32. I find it amazing that every time I inject reason into the debate, I am accused of putting "animals

above humans."

What is it about some people and posters that when someone tries to inject reason into the debate -- that is, a tiger is essentially a beautiful, God-given, natural predator, who predates and should be expected to do so -- I am accused of "putting animals above humans."

I mean, seriously, what the fuck is going on here?

[flvegan]

36. Let me know if you ever get a reasonable response to that question.

[The Stranger]

43. I wonder if some people see other humans as being "on the same team." As if there is a war or a

contest between all species, and since we're humans (at least biologically and taxonomically speaking), then we have to side with a couple of humans, even if they are pieces of shit who went and got drunk, taunted a dangerous animal, then, by doing so, indirectly caused the death of one of their friends, and the death of an extremely endangered, nearly extinct animal.

Since they're "on our team," we can't have too much sympathy for the tiger, or even point out its innocence in this sad series of events.

If we were tigers, then, I suppose we would have to "root for" the tiger. Then we would be free to "root for" our team in this imaginary, bizarre little "war" or "contest" some have inferred from the world.

But the fact is that humans are not in any contest or war of species. Humans won that contest long, long ago. This doesn't give them any inherent value or superiority, as the religious cults inject into the minds of "believers." Rather, it gives humans the responsibility to now care for, cultivate and ensure the survival of all other species. And, after being given this responsibility, most humans have failed utterly, completely, shamefully and despicably in fulfilling this responsibility.

In fact, some fail even to realize the above series of events and the state of reality. They see humans as inherently better than other "animals" (albeit, humans are techincally animals too), and therefore, anyone not siding with "us" against "them" is acting out of order and convention.

How very, very sad. I hope others can see this too.

[BoneDaddy]

56. You crack me up

talk about projection. If you really read my comments instead of going off on your own personal crusade, you would have realized that I found all entities in this case "accountable". I respond to the people who, like yourself, seem to go into some deep distress over the death of a tiger, yet you do not hold any compassion for the people who died or their families.

I was saying it was an all or none scenario with the cat taken the entirity of the blame. I was responding to the "animal lovers" who seem to value animals over humans.

I happen to see all life as deeply deeply connected. I support anti cruelty associations and do not put humans at the top of the pyramid. But in the same respect I do not put animal life over human life.

[The Stranger]

62. That's funny, my post was in reply to that of flvegan. But if you insist . . .

I respond to the people who, like yourself, seem to go into some deep distress over the death of a tiger, yet you do not hold any compassion for the people who died or their families.

What makes you think that, just because I do feel distress at the loss of a nearly-extinct species, that this somehow detracts from the people who died or their families? Why do you believe that humans have to be the first ones over whom someone feels "distress," and that if this prescription isn't followed, the humans are being put "beneath" animals? This simply can only be your projection, not mine.

I was saying it was an all or none scenario with the cat taken the entirity of the blame. I was responding to the "animal lovers" who seem to value animals over humans.

I happen to see all life as deeply deeply connected. I support anti cruelty associations and do not put humans at the top of the pyramid. But in the same respect I do not put animal life over human life.

You believe that if someone feels for the loss of a nearly-extinct species, that humans -- and by implication, you -- are being put "beneath" animal life.

You imply that it is unacceptable to feel for the loss of the nearly extinct species -- which is, by the way, nearly extinct because of humans -- without first showing some kind of preferential homage to people. This is bizarre.

And all of this, of course, is fabricated in your own thinking and your own posts.

[LanternWaste]

66. It seems to me that the tiger did not exceed the bounds

It seems to me that the tiger did not exceed the bounds of reasonable expectation of what tigers do. It also seems to me that the youths did in fact exceed the bounds of reasonable expectations.

As this is merely an observation rather than a judgment-- I am neither placing humanity above or below one or the other.

[BoneDaddy]

72. Fair enough

I might also argue that all human beings have the potential to act with great love and with great cruelty and that too is inherent in our make-up, thus being a part of our nature as well.

[frylock]

47. some folks just feel a need to lord thier moral superiority over others..

you see a lot of that around here.

[Hoof Hearted]

44. "If it did it out in Africa, the tribal people would do their best to hunt the animal down."

Holy Lord.

I have to work on a paper now, so perhaps others will have time to tell you how utterly asinine this statement was. It explains a lot though, I'll give you that.

[KG]

49. industrious little digger!!

[Kingshakabobo]

64. "A TIGER?,,,,,, IN AFRICA?!?!?"

[panzerfaust]

52. I feel sorry for these people who lost a child ...

Nixzmary Brown may have been only 7 years old when she died, battered and starved ... She may have weighed only 36 pounds - the same as a healthy child half her age.

But for all that, a lawyer for her stepfather told jurors on Wednesday at the opening of his murder trial, Nixzmary was a force of destruction ... What's more, he said, she refused to be disciplined, slipping the ropes that bound her to the chair in her room, just out of reach of the litter box she was forced to use as a toilet...

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/01/17/america/slay.php

[Kingshakabobo]

67. A Tiger? In Africa?

[Gormy Cuss]

81. Plenty of tigers in Africa.

This one was from Siberia, that little country on the west coast. :+

[karlrschneider]

24. Horse

shit.

[distantearlywarning]

45. I thought I'd already seen it all on DU.

But I guess not. Here is a poster demanding that we hold predators "accountable" for killing things smaller than themselves. God, I've never seen such horseshit in all my life.

Perhaps we should send the tiger to therapy to talk about the angry feelings that made it want to eat a person. He should take responsibility for his negative emotions and recognize how his actions and choices affected others around him. :eyes:

Newsflash for you: every instinct inside a tiger FORCES it to kill and eat prey. That includes humans. It's the natural order of things. It happens in the wild, and it certainly happens when humans take tigers from their natural habitat and put them in unnatural situations like zoos. You cannot hold a tiger "accountable" for any actions involving the hunt and kill instincts; they do not have free will. They just do what they are supposed to do, which is attack and eat things smaller than themselves. They cannot change who they are and how they act, no matter how much those actions might not fit with our fragile human sensibilities and what we think is fair. Beyond that, they have no concept of the "sanctity of human life" or any of the other portions of the veneer of civilization we humans like to apply to our species, nor can we expect them to understand philosophical matters like the relative worth of a life of a tiger vs. its prey. Thus, if a tiger eats a zoo patron, the only people who should be held accountable are the zoo, for letting the tiger escape to conduct its natural normal business, and well, the asshole who encouraged the tiger to eat him by teasing it.

And frankly, I can't believe anybody even has to explain any of this to you or anyone else.

[LanternWaste]

63. I'm afraid I cannot hold an animal responsible for acting like an animal.

Your indictment seems to be analogous to assigning blame, guilt and responsibility to the sky for forming a tornado: nature does what nature does. I'm afraid I cannot hold an animal responsible for acting like an animal.

However, I do hold people responsible for acting like animals...

[kskiska]

6. He didn't admit it to the police,

just to the dead boy's father. After conferring with Geragos, they'll probably come up with another version in court.

[bettyellen]

82. and i'm sure they never used the slingshots too

because that would get them a smaller settlement.

[originalpckelly]

7. "yelling and waving" What, don't little kids do stupid shit like that too?

Stuff like that happens all the time, these enclosures should be designed well enough so that despite it, there is no chance of escape.

[mondo joe]

11. Little kids as a rule don't climb on the railing a few feet from the moat.

That's also in the story.

[originalpckelly]

13. Why is it even possible to do that?

:shrug:

[mondo joe]

15. I believe during daylight hours when you are supposed to be in the zoo, it is not

possible because staff will prevent you from doing it. But once you're in the zoo after hours you're already doing things you're not supposed to do.

To make an analogy, it's like breaking into a construction site and hurting yourself with heavy construction equipment, or breaking into a pharmacy and harming yourself by taking some pharmaceutical.

The point of a zoo is to allow visitors to see the animals. To do that, the zoo has to make certain calls on how to best allow people to do so while keeping it safe. They certainly could make it a LOT more safe by also making the animals a LOT less visible.

The balance the zoo struck seemed to work very well when used as it's supposed to be used. It's not the zoo's fault that some kids broke in and misused it.

[tuckessee]

50. That's why I suspect these guys did a lot more than standard taunting.

They pissed her off royally.

Enough that she specifically sought them out, passing by other potential victims.

Something made the tiger think "it's either me or those three".

[blindpig]

18. Well, duh

That kind of stupidity always goes on at zoos, for better or worse there's always dumbasses. When I was a zookeeper we tried to get the bulk of our work done before opening time and spent a good portion of our time keeping an eye on the public around our exhibits. This event occurred on a holiday in winter, crowds are thin and you're usually short staffed so most workers can be off, precluding such intervention.

Facilities should be built for worse case situations, these apparently were not. Don't know if it was cheapness, graft or possibly the enclosure was designed for Bengals and not Siberians, a larger cat.

It was a goddamn shame but if blame need be placed it should be laid at the door of the zoo administration which built the enclosure.

[moez]

21. It sounds like the zoo director has had his head up his ass

ever since he took over....



http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/12/30/MNNQU63KP.DTL

[blindpig]

35. That's pretty fucked up

I saw the same thing happening when I left the zoo trade.You get these local zoological societies which are nothing more than toys for the rich coming in and dazzling people with the bucks they can throw around, players in the administration get on the bandwagon that they might hobnob with the elite. They force through vanity projects, get their kids on the staff, take over. Then when the economy gets tough and the rich tighten up on the money the zoo is left hanging in the air.

This guy is a real jerk but if he wasn't aware of the enclosures short comings and wasn't involved in the construction then we can't blame him for this one, just the rest.

[AlGore-08.com]

77. FWIW the area was designed in the 1940s

I haven't read whether it was originally designed for Bengals only.

[earth mom]

23. I knew there was a reason those kids where there so late in the day & at their ages.

:(

[saltpoint]

28. Wasn't there, can't assert specifics, BUT. If this young man and his pals

were taunting the animal, it was a captive animal they were taunting, a pretty big captive animal, and one that has been genetically wired for some centuries to rip the flesh off of other creatures.

Getting blasted and taunting a huge captive animal doesn't strike me as the best possible use of these young people's time.

The tiger responded in the way it felt it had to respond.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

40. Kids taunt the animals

Some kids are dumb. They taunt animals at the zoo. Bad kids!!

Still, there should have been no way for that tiger to get out of its enclosure. No matter what taunt provoked it. Bad zoo!!

That zoo is going to pay.

[mondo joe]

41. That's like blaming Niagara Falls for people who cross the safety barriers falling in.

Had the kids abided by the rules, they would have been safe.

You want a situation in which there is ZERO risk of harm by a tiger? Look at a photo.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

65. If the tiger made a meal of them in its enclosure

then I'd agree with you. You climb in with the tiger - tiger eats you - your fault, not the tiger's.

But if that tiger can get out of the enclosure, no matter the motivation, it's the zoo's fault (again, not the tiger's).

Kids abide by rules? Bwahahahahaha!

[mondo joe]

68. But the kids did climb into a dangerous area.

They passed the safety point, same as if they passed the safety points at the Grand Canyon or Niagara Falls.

Clearly the zoo didn't think the tiger could get out. They have passed inspections over the years so they must have met whatever the safety standards are.

Neither you nor the zoo can be held responsible for anything that could ever conceivably happen - you can be held responsible for taking reasonable precautions/steps.

[Elspeth]

53. I kinda like the idea of the Tiger getting its day in court.

With the right lawyer, it could get community service. :)

[LanternWaste]

70. How about Jackie Chiles...?

Jackie Chiles: So you're laying in your pen, you're with your friend, minding your own business?

Tiger: Yeah.

Jackie Chiles: Then what happened?

Tigerr: Then we saw this woman, and she was wearing a bra with no top.

Jackie Chiles: No top? She didn't have a top on?

Tiger: No. So I got distracted and I crashed the car.

Jackie Chiles: Well how would you describe this woman? Would you say she was an attractive woman?

Tiger: Oh yeah!

Jackie Chiles: So we got an attractive woman, wearing a bra, no top, walkin' around in broad
daylight. She's flouting society's conventions!

Tiger: She was flouting.

Tiger: It was outrageous. And she's the heir to the O'Henry candy bar fortune.

[opihimoimoi]

71. In Tonga they have a saying, "Let sleeping tigers lie"

[varkam]

78. Well, when police arrived they did find the tiger on top of a victim...

and then the tiger started approaching them...so...what would you have them do?

[Ikonoklast]

80. Pass the tiger some salt n/t