Spitting on the troops.

[Skidmore]

Finally getting to watch KO's item on Walter Reed from last night. He alluded to the spitting on the vets myth from the Vietnam era. And he pointed out that these facilities are under the purview of the DoD, not the Veteran's Administration. The parallel he was drawing was who has been "spitting on the troops" in this war? I think we can point to a symbolic spitting from the executive branch and the Republic party legislators who flakked for them over the last several years. And we can point to press too busy with garbage. Thank goodness for one good journalist who still understood the importance of pounding pavement over waiting for * to pass out a nickname or for invitations to parties in the Beltway.

[Hubert Flottz]

1. Think of the contrast between the pictures KO showed last night

of the dilapidated, crumbling, hospital and how the DoD is failing to honor the living disabled vets by sending them to live in an unhealthy pig sty and this image that the DoD wants to project.

[Hubert Flottz]

2. We need to take care of our LIVING heroes FIRST George!

[opihimoimoi]

12. Bush has done a shameful job of caring for the Troops...Shameful and Embarrassing

Its all about making themselves look good...the ILLUSION is what counts for them...not the substance...

[Hubert Flottz]

14. The GOPers are all show and no GO.

When it's their turn, they ALWAYS have better things to do, than to defend freedom and liberty for ALL.

[opihimoimoi]

58. The GOPers can SLEEP AT NIGHT???? HOW in the World can they do that

knowing the damage they have done to this once great Nation of ours??

Where do they find the Delusion to make this possible?

Are they that much into FANTASY??????

They ruin our troops lives then go on with THEIRS...not caring enough to call BushCo and make things better? This is beyond DESPICABLE.....almost CRIMINAL even....

The GOPers have succeeded in revealing their lack of Empathy, the lack of soul. the lack of Heart....they are a cold blooded species other than that of Humanity...they gatta be Aliens posing as Humans....Damn

[Hubert Flottz]

61. They don't care cause they don't ever have to go to the wars they

cheer on.

As long as they don't have to look at the cripples and the dead, the war is like a TV show to them. The Bush/Pentagon propagandists have improved their skills since Vietnam. But the dead are just as dead today as they were 35 years ago.

The people I knew, who were coming back from Vietnam, were the last people on Earth, anyone in their right mind would have wanted to spit on. I can't think of a Vet that I know who would have let someone do that to them and not gotten a piece of their hide!

A lot of people have told me about the cow that jumped over the moon, but I never believed that bull either.

[opihimoimoi]

78. Better believe it..Hubert...these dudes are DELUSIONAL.They think they right and all of us are Wrong

all 75% of us....

[zanne]

3. "spitting"

Back in the Vietnam era, some photographer flashed one picture of a GI being spit on. It then became a meme for the right wing; "War protesters spit on troops". I was around then, and believe me, I never saw a returning GI get spit on.

[Skidmore]

5. Yes, it is a myth used for propaganda, but one that can be nicely

turned onto those who have used it for so long to point out the damage they have done.

[KharmaTrain]

9. It Was The Repugnicans Who Spit On Them...

During Vietnam I, along with many others, wore POW bracelets and dedicated time to work with VVAW. My wife and I still work with various Vietnam Vet groups and now are reaching out to Iraqi groups that surely will need support...financially, emotionally and with shoe leather...in the years to come.

It was the GOOPers who cut a lot of funding for medical and psychological treatment for vets in the 80's, then Cheney downscaled and outsourced the military in the early 90's (blames it on Clinton to this day) that forced even deeper cuts. The results...homeless Vietnam vets who no longer were getting treatment and had been turned out on the streets.

Sadly, history is repeating itself with the Iraqi vets...already facing cuts before the "war" is even over. They're coming home to a right wing that has no tolerance for their ever doubting the carnage they witnessed and expect them to be willing to go back for more. Better those guys than some chickenhawk hiding behind a keyboard. If they dare speak out, then they've gone crazy or are traitors...or, in the future, will be the ones who "lost Iraq". The hypocrisy gets glossed over by the hubris of the "flag wavers" who were only in this thing for the bloodlust and the greed.

Here's hoping The Democratic Party rises to the defense of the millions in the military who were suckered into big lie after big lie by this regime and now are paying a price in blood and esteem. The VA hospitals are filling with the people who are easily forgotten...we can never and should never forget.

[tibbiit]

13. I have posted this same thing before myself

I never saw a soldier spit on and at the time thought it was the pro-war people doing any spitting that occured so they could say soldiers were spit on. The rightwingers back then were no different than today... just as ugly and devious. We just didnt have the internet.
The rightwing human demons have always been with here and just as vocal, loud, whiny cry-babys.
tib


Flag burning is the same thing... isolated incidents that became common wisdom because the Whore Press has always amplified the rightwing causes.

[LostinVA]

17. Bob Greene wrote an entire book about this very subject (spitting on soldiers)

It was very interesting. He concluded that it was basically a myth, although some service members were definitely not treated well upon their return from Vietnam.

[ProfessorGAC]

53. Tahiti Nut Was A Vietnam Vet Who Was SPIT ON!!!!

And he is one of us. I would say that it's not a myth, but probably not as common as we were led to believe.
The Professor

[LostinVA]

55. To repeat: I said "basically a myth"

[ProfessorGAC]

64. Huh?

Either something is mythical or it's real. There's no "somewhat mythical". It may be grossly exaggerated, but that doesn't make it mythical. So, it can't be "basically a myth". It can be an intentionally exagerrated event meant to make a point against anti-war protestors, though.
The Professor

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProfessorGAC]

69. I Got Your Back!

And, iirc, you have described the incident in detail.

That was a horrible slur.
GAC

[Name removed]

72. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TahitiNut]

73. Thank you, my friend.

I profoundly appreciate your personal integrity and compassion. I can't begin to describe how that kind of venom and bile opens old wounds. From people who claim 'offense' at often imaginary slights, this kind of outright malice and hatred is truly and deeply despicable.

I've put some of the many times I've been provoked into posting about my personal experiences into my DU Journal for anyone to see who cares to do even the slightest of fact-checking - without the seemingly burdensome effort to do even the most cursory of searches on DU.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lazer47]

16. If you didn't

see it, it because of 2 reasons either you refused to see it, or you had your head in the sand

[conscious evolution]

20. did not see what?

[zanne]

21. Who are you?

And what kind of proof do you have that any spitting was going on?

[lazer47]

23. See my reply at Oaklnd Army Terminal

[conscious evolution]

24. And where would that be?

[lazer47]

27. I,m Sorry I am new to this

but here is what I wrote, in the other reply
I don't mean to disagree with you, however outside the gates at Oakland Army Terminal, when most combat troops went to get their jungle gear, at that old place called the "BARN" these,, college students used to stand outside the gates and throw diffrent things and protest the war,,, involved in this some of the time was spitting on the troops. first hand story from me to you

[zanne]

31. Were you one of the soldiers being "spit" on?

Did you see it yourself? Or did somebody "tell" you?

[lazer47]

33. First hand Account,

I would not lie or by any other means try to deceive anyone about that, it the students right to do it as much as it was mine to find it disgusting, It doesn't matter in the long run what we now feel or think about it. However the MYTH that it didn't take place (spitting)is an insult to the few that it happened to, times were now easy back then with this country divided as much as it was, but as now or any time it comes to the troops themselves we deserved better then and they deserve better NOW,

[zanne]

36. "First Hand Account"

This is too important to leave to a "first hand account". Was it you? Did YOU witness a soldier being spit on?

[lazer47]

40. Y$ES,,,,, now leave it alone

I am done,,,that is enough talk about it,,,and it was 38yrs ago,I live with it,,now get over it.

[zanne]

42. Excuse me?

On DU, we don't order other people to "leave it alone". It's not final until both parties say it is. I am NOT done, buddy.

[lazer47]

44. I realize I am new

However it takes 2 people to have a conversation, and I will go no further with this one.
FURTHER AFFLUENT SAITH NOT.

[zanne]

45. Just don't tell other people here to shut up.

It's a forum. Y'know?

[Kingshakabobo]

52. Bullshit.

[NEOhiodemocrat]

25. Because it happened to my husband

just because you didn't see it or have it happen to you doesn't mean it didn't happen. The soldiers from that time did not return to a good atmosphere. It was not everyone, some people were very kind. But you can't speak for everyone by your own experiences.

[zanne]

30. I'm calling BS on that one. nt

[NEOhiodemocrat]

34. sure, just say you don't believe

because it doesn't fit in your "idea" of what happened. My husband wouldn't tell me that happened if it had not. And he doesn't tell anyone else. He tells me acts of kindness people did for him then also.

[lazer47]

35. Refusing to see is the first step to delusional thinking

Now you know why your husband and people like myself dont want to talk about it

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

50. See this link:

http://opovet.blogspot.com/2007/02/and-even-more-on-spitting.html

[zanne]

56. That is an excellent veteran's blog. Thank you. nt

[NEOhiodemocrat]

41. thank you

I really think I am beginning to see. And I must say it is quite upsetting. This is the first time I posted anything about that happening. Every time I see articles saying it never happened I wondered about why he never talked about it. Why would people not believe someone? Are they imagining this is a perfect little world where things like this never happen? The good he encountered as a soldier far outweighed the bad, but we can't just look at one side.

[zanne]

38. Then we both believe what we believe.

But until somebody tell me they were personally spit on or actually saw it happen at the time, I'm still calling BS.

[NEOhiodemocrat]

47. "we don't see things the way they are. We see things the way we are."

somehow I get the feeling that if someone came on and said it happened to them you would ask for photographic proof. Some things just happened, we can get by it, but we can't deny it.

[zanne]

49. It's mistrust of the Right Wing Propaganda machine....

And, you have to agree, the right wing is not known for it's truthfulness. You're right about my wanting solid proof. If we had demanded solid proof about WMD's from Bush, we wouldn't be in this mess now. So excuse me if I don't see it the way you do. I don't know your husband, who is your only source of information about soldiers being spit on. So you must understand my suspicion..... And, by the way, you used the quote on my profile page perhaps as a way to tell me I'm being biased, but remember, that quote applies to you, too.

[Hubert Flottz]

37. When you can't trust the president of the United States...

who can you trust. I guess that is the dirty hippie's fault too.

In Gawd we trust? Well, if Gawd is on Bush and the lying neocon's side, I guess we can't even trust Gawd anymore either.

[NEOhiodemocrat]

46. you have me there

I know I don't believe a word out of this administration, but I tend to be a bit more trusting with other people. I just can't believe anyone would doubt why a soldier would lie about being spit on. I mean, come on, my husband was drafted from a backwoods community on the Ohio, West Virginia boarder. He was not pro or anti war, he was a pawn.

[Hubert Flottz]

48. "Other people" voted for the idiot!

Or so the GOP says. I was drafted and I'm from West Virginia and nobody did anything but treat me nice everywhere I went in the USA. I was at and all around Fort Ord California and I was never mistreated. I was in Monterey Salinas Cal. LA Cal., Denver, Colorado Springs, Cripple Creek, Pueblo Colorado, Chicago, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Beaver Falls, Richmond Va, St Louis, Jefferson City Mo, Rolla Mo, Huntington WV, Campbell's Creek WV, Charleston, Ripley, Ravenswood, Parkersburg, Cleveland, Youngstown, Morgantown, Daytona Beach, Miami Fla. and I had no problems.

If someone had decided to spit on me it would have been on the news, because I would have kicked their ass!

[zanne]

51. Thank you, Hubert Flottz! nt

[Hubert Flottz]

57. You're welcome zanne

I might have had a few young GOPer ladies drooling right heavily over me back then, I will freely admit that! I forgive them every one though, cause that was the Christian thing to do, back then!

[devilgrrl]

67. When, where, who?

Funny that you never hear about the actual incidents, we just get the "well, it happened to _________ ", never the where and when by whom.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

65. Have you got any evidence?

Other than anecdotal evidence?

[TahitiNut]

62. Try to get your facts straight.

(1) Returning Viet Nam vets got spat on. That's a fact. It happened to me.

(2) The denialists on the left focus on denying it was "hippies" or "antiwar protesters" doing the spitting. OK. That's fair. I didn't get a resume from the spitter.

(3) The denialists on the left try to use a bizarre, delusional kind of 'logic' that presumes that anyone spat at would either get into a brawl or make some 'report' ... which is insane. After a year being shot at and getting rousted by incoming mortars and RPG rounds, spittle was not something that was life-threatening. Furthermore, after counting down the days to get 'home,' the LAST thing I wanted was another delay. Anyone who uses an opposite premise is engaging in delusional revisionism, imho.

Calling it a 'myth' and dismissing the experiences of Viet Nam veterans is, imho, just the same kind of alienation and dismissal that's been going on for forty years ... reopening a wound and pouring salt into it.

The fact that this comes up on DU about 3-5 times a year is disgusting. Such an obsession by some to revisit this and reject the personal experiences of those of us who came 'home' to the nightmare of betrayal and alienation is so despicable that I can't find words for it.

:puke:

[devilgrrl]

70. Ok bud, tell us everything in minute detail!

When, where and who did this to you? Until I hear YOUR whole story, I not buying it - so suck it up!

BTW, Al Franken had a guest on his show his last week on air discussing this very issue - how interesting that you didn't call into the show to set the record straight.

[MyNameGoesHere]

74. Ok i believe that

soldiers were spit on. And now i also believe the soldiers were baby killers because that is another legend not backed up by fact. So there ya go you were a baby killer.

Doesn't make sense does it?

[TahitiNut]

77. Take that demeaning and dismissive animosity ...

... and stick it where the sun shines least. :puke:

[Hubert Flottz]

4. The DoD has the money for Daytona and the Super Bowl and

But the Army don't have the money to take care of their own, when their own need it the most! Heckuva Job...

[Norquist Nemesis]

43. Primary sponsorships are in the million$

And that doesn't include the extras. A trade magazine (from 2005) listed primary sponsorship expense anywhere from $10-$18 million for the Nextel Cup and $3-6 million for the Busch series. http://www.eventmarketer.com/templates/Event_Marketer_Magazine/PDF/NASCAR101.pdf

Supposedly, the Army re-evaluated (From Dec 2005): "The U.S. Army will no longer sponsor NASCAR, Street & Smith¹s SportsBusiness Journal reports, but it will continue as sponsor of MB2 Motorsports' No. 01 Chevrolet driven by Joe Nemechek in NASCAR's Nextel Cup Series. "
http://www.scenedaily.com/stories/2005/12/19/scene_daily12.html

It irks me to no end that millions (probably adding up to billions if we're going to be honest about it) of taxpayer's money is spent in this manner. I wonder what those 'small government, strong fiscal control, less spending' Cons would have to say about a Tournament of Roses parade float "brought to you by the Department of Education". Maybe FEMA can sponsor Survivor and get their official seal on the buffs! argh!!!!!!!!

[babydollhead]

6. we need to fight for Their freedom! our dear troops!

[opihimoimoi]

7. BushCo has done a heckofajob supporting the myth of the GOP caring for the troops

In fact...they have ignored the troops....

The Bushies use the troops for photo ops and canned meetings/speeches

but when the wounded come home for treatment...they get the cold shoulder...WTF is THAT???

Classic abuse from the GOP BULLIES...

[Skidmore]

8. Hammer away on them.

Call them for their spitting on the troops. I would hope that every Dem would speak about the negligence of this administration in these terms. Turn it back on them.

[The Flaming Red Head]

10. I know maybe it started in some right wing myth factory

But there are nut jobs on our side, too who might have heard it in the media and thought it sounded like the thing to do. I have had contact with more than a few Vietnam vets (as a nurse and a friend) that told me it happened to them. I believe them, they were so emotional about it, to the point of crying and they weren’t dumb right wing nut jobs, just poor working class kids that got sucked into the Vietnam war and came home (disabled and bitter) to a country that didn’t then and still doesn’t give a fuck about them

[Hubert Flottz]

11. I flew into airports from coast to coast in my dress greens in 70-71

many times and nobody did anything to me, but treat me with friendly respect.

[lazer47]

22. Oakland Army Terminal

I don't mean to disagree with you, however outside the gates at Oakland Army Terminal, when most combat troops went to get their jungle gear, at that old place called the "BARN" these college students used to stand outside the gates and throw diffrent things and protest the war,,, involved in this some of the time was spitting on the troops. first hand story from me to you

[frogcycle]

18. comments above that incidents were blown out of proportion

are probably valid, but there certainly were incidents. Don't know how much actual spitting (probably very rare) but I recall newsclips of lines of protesters with signs chanting "baby killers" and such

there were also plenty of counter-protests, as alluded to above.

A friend recounts his story of walking thru airport upon return and being greeted by a woman from Utah who was there demonstrating in support of troops - he says to this day he feels bad that he, given his state of mind, was rude to her - don't recall exactly, but he says he said something disparaging - "you don't know me lady" and something about her lame gesture not fixing things.

It was a trying time for all, and there are plenty of anecdotes to relate, and anyone with an agenda can "cherry pick the intel" to make their case one way or the other.

bottom line is there are several hundred thousand VN vets who live with demons and the VA response to it was abysmal. Hell, they fought for years before they admitted agent orange had poisoned people. The state of denial then was every bit as bad as it is now.

In an essay written a couple of years ago about that war and this, my friend concludes "We didn't learn a damned thing"

and he is oh-so-right

[WinkyDink]

15. I think the "VietNam era" SotT "anecdotes" are apocrypha, pure and simple.

[NEOhiodemocrat]

19. I get so depressed when I hear about this

My husband told me once that he was spit on (would have been in 1968 I think) in an airport when he was in uniform traveling home. He doesn't talk to much about it, at the time he was just released from two months in military hospital, and he was limping from knee surgery. Fortunately for us, his injury was before his unit shipped out to VietNam, and he was re-stationed stateside. But his two months were spent in the hospital with injured soldiers from the war, and he lost many of his unit over there. All in all he thinks the real outrage to the soldiers of that time was bringing his brother home after two terms in VietNam, and letting him out with a drug problem. Even releasing him in California and letting him figure out his own way home to Ohio.
edit for year

[Toots]

26. Wonder what twelve billion in cold hard cash would do for Walter Reed?

We will never know because 363 tons of cold hard cash in hundred dollar bills (twelve billion dollars) was heisted right in front of America's eyes while wounded veterans suffered in silence...just disappeared..:shrug: no one knows anything...

[Hubert Flottz]

29. The "Ghost Employees" in Iraq needed that money more than the

troops.

EXXON should pay to take care of the vets...they will be getting rich off the Iraqi oil.

[opihimoimoi]

59. Ahem...Exlaxon is rich enough as of yesterday...they having 3 boom years in a row

mostly on our dime....

They coulda make themselves look good but didn't...too late now...its been exposed as NEGLECT from the Bushies Peeps.

[dogday]

28. Spitting or Shitting on the troops?

This administration has time and time again shit on these soldiers.....

[NEOhiodemocrat]

32. Exactly

It is much worse for the government who sent a soldier to then betray them than for a misguided civilian to blame the soldier. The civilian is an individual who may be misguided or just plain dumb, our government is personally responsible for that soldier and their care. And obviously they are not fulfilling their responsibilities.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

60. I had a DI spit on me when I was in boot camp.

Of course, the assholes spit on everybody when not beating on us or torturing us in other interesting ways. I would happily spit on any of those jerkoffs or piss on their graves.

[Hidden Stillness]

63. First of All, This was not Keefy Dicksuck's "Investigation"

This was a report from the great investigative reporter for the Washington Post, Dana Priest, first printed there, and then played on NBC News, narrated by Priest herself. It was merely rebroadcast on "Countdown" later. The next episode of "Countdown," Keefy Dicksuck finally broke down and had an actual WOMAN GUEST, Tammy Duckworth, the Iraq war veteran who lost both legs, ran unsuccessfully for Congress, and now serves in the Illinois Veterans Affairs Dept. She told how she herself refused to be treated at, I believe it was this hospital, after noticing mice running around in the cafeteria. This situation is a total, goddamned disgrace, and Democrats lost so much time by following those "D"LC "framing" assholes, telling them not to challenge Bush or Cheney, rather than just exposing all these outrages, that we might have been on the way to solving a lot of this by now if we had just attacked. A few years ago, when Republicans controlled Congress, they went on a killing-spree of Base Closings, with the facade of "hearings," etc., and one of the things they put on the list of "bases" to be closed was Walter Reed Army Medical Hospital!

Republicans did not spend money on body armor or armor for the vehicles, they did no hearings to locate the lost billions of dollars stolen by Halliburton, they increased the premiums and drug fees paid by veterans, and they cut medical services and availability, all while Democrats fought every step of the way. We should have been screaming about this, and not being eternally "nice," years ago!

Also, returning veterans from Viet Nam really were treated like crap, called "baby killers" (often with signs shoved in their faces), yelled at for the atrocities they had done, whether they did them or not, and just as bad, were totally ignored when they returned. There were no parades, etc., and I remember many times, coverage of returning vets at military airports, and driving off, when there was not a single person there to greet them. For years after, almost every cheesy TV police series had as its "pscychotic killer villian" a Viet Nam war vet. I do not know about spitting specifically, but it would not have been impossible in that poisoned, bitter atmosphere. People are totally different nowadays, as if the American people themselves taught themselves a lesson about the pretty disgraceful treatment of Viet Nam vets, because they no longer direct it against the soldiers.

Never be surprised at how horrible some people can be, however: I remember, as clear as if it were yesterday, a group of women protesing, feminists, who had a bucket of urine hurled at them by a prick male. This was the '70s.

[hedgehog]

75. Who was really at fault when the soldiers got back from Viet Nam?

The occasional jerks who played macho by spitting at a soldier or the military for separating soldiers as individuals and dumping them back into civilian life with no support? I'd say the military has learned a lot since then, since from what I see troops or mobilized to and returned from Iraq as a group and with ceremony.

For what it's worth, I went to college with some Viet vets who knew me for at least two years before identifying themselves as such. They wanted to be certain of their welcome. This was at University of Buffalo c 1974. At the time, some people knew it as the Berkley of the East and others considered it a blue collar commuter school. It was a big campus, and it all depended on who you hung with what your experience there was.

[TahitiNut]

76. There's more than enough blame to go around. MORE than enough.

Yes. SOME Viet Nam veterans (out of more than 2.5 million!) conducted themselves dishonorably - some in Viet Nam and some afterward.

Yes. SOME "antiwar protesters" conducted themselves dishonorably and despicably. There is virtually no 'group' without its sociopaths. SOME people today forget that "antiwar protesters" came from both the left and the right, in a day it was called "LBJ's War."

Yes. The practice of sending guys (mostly Army) over to Viet Nam alone and returning them alone and dumping them back "on the block" at some out-processing depot like OAB to make their way 'home' alone was appalling. The ones who 'escaped' that solitary experience were those, usually in the Navy and Air Farce, who were deployed as units. Some, with a service obligation that extended beyond their return from Viet nam (on leave before reporting to their new assignment), had different attitudes and different experiences. Draftees being mustered out had the hardest 'returns,' imho.

Personally, I was treated best by the 'fringe' ... the lefty, "flower power," "hippie" types. Not those filled with zealous rage but those who walked the talk. Yes, indeed. I encountered enough zealots to know I'd better stay away - zealots who hurled "baby killer" epithets and ranted without knowing the SLIGHTEST about the experience of the guys they demeaned.

I was treated worst by older veterans - the VFW and (even worse) the American Legion members who were 'embarrassed' by us "losers" - despite the FACT that there were no U.S. military defeats in Viet Nam of any significance.

NOBODY "wins" in guerrilla wars - populist wars. (Viet Nam, contrary to 'conventional' thinking, was almost solely conventional in the military activities after 1968-69. It was the NVA, not the VC, who finally took Saigon and the rest of the South.) The 'strategy' in Viet Nam was about who lost the most - not about who "won." There were no winners - except for the profiteers.