When Love is NOT the Answer..

[undergroundpanther]

Sometimes by introspection into your own motives,you wrestle with your own conscience and find Love is not the answer.. I know there is a fine line between love and hate and it is made sharper through understanding that this world is not just,unless we agree to make it be just,by our actions and words. A desire to make it better for real... might mean the use of violence in some cases.

Everyone needs to study the authoritarian,psychopathy and narcissistic personalities among us more.These people have character/conduct disorders, not mental illness ,for a character issue is something that cannot be cured with drugs,therapy, or love.Character disorders are NOT the same thing as a mental illness because the personality that is toxic is WHAT and Whom they are. People with mental illness can change and even be cured with the right kind of help.Unlike the mentally ill toxic character disordered people, they can't be cured, only contained one way or another.

I get really annoyed when people lump in the mentally ill and traumatized people with psychopaths,narcissists,authoritarians and bullies as if we have the same problems.Mentally ill and traumatized people STILL have the quality of character, good or bad they had before the sickness or trauma occurred and fucked their heads and lives over. Traumatized people for the most part DO NOT grow up to be abusers.If that was so abusers would be more common than they already are.That LIE that victims will become perps is called the Vampire myth.Stop using myths to explain psychopaths and bullies behaviors.
http://www.aest.org.uk/survivors/vampire_syndrome.html

Some character disorders you can live with, they might be difficult to be in a relationship with,annoy the hell out of you and make for an unrewarding time, but they usually are not abusive in the toxic to humanity sense like the psychopath,authoritarian or narcissistic types of people.
Learn the differences and you will learn what you CAN live with and what you Can't.

The toxic personality if severe enough means you can't live around them without someone or yourself being beaten,tortured, raped or emotionally battered to traumatic breakdown. If you can't live with them,you CAN live without them.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/13/science/13BABO.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5007&en=36f651ea236a423d&ex=1397188800&partner=USERLAND

I find the biggest barrier to change on a cultural scale comes from people who have not faced traumas bad enough for them to see reality as it IS and understand this.. The un-traumatized really need to sensitize themselves,learn what boundaries are for,learn how abuse works to victimize people on behalf of the toxic people games going on among us that keep abusive assholes in positions of power-over all of us. This knowledge is VITAL to our survival as a SPECIES.

You don't have to suffer torture to know it is evil,and wrong do you? You don't need to be discriminated against to know it is wrong do you? Yet people never having to feel the pain of being called"fa**ot" allow themselves to be a bit homophobic,men that never get looked at and treated as an object rationalize porn as "womens lib"..Are people that are in the position of not facing this shit really THAT stubborn in your insensitive fortunate obliviousness? Sometimes YES!!
http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v3n2/justworld.html
"Hypocrisy which takes the form of denial of hypocrisy is hypocrisy squared."Lionel Rubinoff The Pornography of Power.

Love cannot always fix this toxic person problem.Tolerance cannot either.There comes a time when tolerance becomes by-standing and enabling the destruction of everything you hold dear your family your kids your friends,or even your country.
Than you must speak in the language of an abuser to the abuser by harsh words,fists or even guns. Many wars are UNJUST but when an abused spouse who kills her abuser after many years of tolerance,patience kindness in the extreme, living under emotional ,sexual or physical torture for years.. I am happy for that killer spouses well aimed shot,and I am glad one less habitual asshole is in this world to cause more pain to people.

http://members.aol.com/dswgriff/chardisorder.html
http://www.bullyonline.org/
http://ponerology.blogspot.com/2005/12/political-ponerology-science-on-nature.html
http://www.nospank.net/demause1.htm
http://www.psychohistory.com/
http://www.parascience.org/psycho1.htm
http://drzeusforensicfiles.blogspot.com/2006/05/cure.html

Psychopathy authoritarian and narcissistic personality is kind of like mental retardation,all the love in the world won't make someone with with an IQ of 45 understand nuclear physics.(savants aside).

Years ago these toxic personalities were called "morally insane".But that ain't quite accurate, they aren't morally insane, if anything they are deliberate in their choices unencumbered by emotions like ours they know what they do is wrong and that it hurts people,and they do it anyway and desire to get away with it and they cover up their choices to do crimes because they don't CARE about anyone else's life or happiness at all..Sometimes they hide by appearing very"normal".

Sometimes they manipulate groups via a keyboard or bureaucracy to dominate and build themselves a consensus of support to attack the victim speaking up about their own mistreatment,so they will not find their voices and heal the problem by getting the group to see the real asshole sucking up to be the ruler of a community that's rapidly becoming a fiefdom.Bullies do this shit because they don't care about the quality of others lives at all,their ideas, anything..Bullies just care about their own pleasures and wants and everyone owes them to the bully on demand in the bullies mind..

These toxic personalities are NOT like us.They don't respond to love ,help or pity as we would do, in fact if you love them they'll destroy you by their unreasonable demands for more tolerance and forgiveness as they abuse the hell out of you until you break down.Abusers tend to create a culture around themselves to keep them company and to reinforce a tolerate the abusive shit the abuser does,deliberately through manipulation of OTHERS emotions.And this country is FULL of this shitty game bullies play that causes so much pain in homes,schools corporations,governments...

So if you don't or won't wake up to see your own ethical and personal boundaries violated when will you see this countries conduct boundaries being demolished ?

How long does it take to get away from the abuser or take the abusers power to abuse away? Are you afraid you may have to destroy the attacker? Does that fear keep the abuse going?

( Stopping an abusive personality that refuses to obey boundaries after warnings and jail, is what I think the death penalty and the right to abolish a corrupted government stuff is really designed to do).

If each of us do not attempt to resist,and try to defend our right to live free from abuse in the ways we are capable,be it in home shouting out on line,leaving an abusive spouse, or rioting in the street.. If we are so well taught to be helpless by this culture, so powerless our default position is toby-stand ,mute our voices,deny reality with utopias,,and blame ourselves for the injuries and traumas perpetrated against us,like telling lies"the vampire myth". If we just rationalize the irrational, tolerate the intolerable, and refuse to SPEAK,instead of standing up,speaking up,fighting back in whatever capacity we can that is required to make the bully stop bullying and force a change to the situation that's intolerable,all of us in one way or another are going to be wounded.And this time the whole world is gonna get it.

Talk to any domestic violence counselor they will tell you the same things about the importance of standing up and asserting boundaries.

Bullies who refuse to accept boundaries cannot be tolerated in a society if you really do value freedom democracy equality, love and peace. Bullies are the exploiters and spoilers of humanity's better ennobling sides .Does not matter if the spoiler abuses through the physical,emotional,sexual,or financial or any mix of these things, he is doing WRONG to us. ( there are more ways a person can take advantage of the weaker or more trusting i.e. enabling abusers by a utopian belief or ignorance about the nature of toxic personalities).

Inside yourself you may feel authoritarian tendencies at times but that does not mean it is who you are. You cannot tolerate anybody running roughshod over other's lives without it harming you,up to a point.That is what our authoritarian side is for..Knowing that point of when enough is enough,is where you realize some people are not like you and it is up to you to MAKE a boundary takes use of the side of ourselves we don't always like to admit we have..To call up the rage the authoritarian feelings inside,to use the snide cruel mouth in the language of domination we all can use at times in service of protecting self, your kin and even strangers from abusers.This side of us is used for boundary keeping, it can even be used skillfully to respect and preserve the integrity of the sensitive human heart and defend right relationships from those who would desire to make the healthy, right relationship fall into dysfunction..

Using the language of dominance requires each of us to make strong, yet flexible, healthy, reasonable and very clear boundaries. If we love each other we can't help but be fierce in defending our boundaries ,putting limits upon people who violate our boundaries and be willing enforce it in whatever way that keeps integrity alive.Be it admitting our own mistakes or killing a person hellbent on destroying integrity..if we really want a decent life and peace we need to get this idea. Do not tut tut those of us who's bad experiences tell them why boundaries must be drawn on others and why it harms.

The pacifists must see past their ideals to understand those willing to observe,do what is needed to protect the vulnerable among us from harm from the authoritarian narcissist and psychopath personality .Yes war claims to be for this purpose. War is very often a lie used to dupe those who understand the need to defend personal boundaries. When a leader is a toxic personality and call for war, he is playing a game when he himself hides from the enemies he declares surrounded by sycophantic obedient guards and P.R firms..He is by proxy abusing the people making THEM fight for him when there is no clear reasons for this"war"to begin with other than his sick amusement or winning some geo political 'insiders' game..

I think the potential boundary breakers be they personal or political should get warned to stop it first.Ignorance and foot in mouth happens to all of us. We should wait until the ass is showing fully before we kick it..Assess their sincerity by observing them, over time,Do look into their pasts,to see their patterns .It will be clear in demonstrating a toxic character in the patterns of behaviors and choices made.And feel the red flags,internal conflicts,cognitive dissonance, rising and emotional storms that arise from being exposed to abuse creates inside you.Don't shut it down,feel it, learn from it, listen to it's messages ,than go SAY it!!
We ARE emotional beings..The psychopath lacks emotion so his head is ALWAYS cool.Expect this when faced with this kind of personality,and know that is why abusers can appear so rational when caught, while the victim sounds crazy..By observing these dynamics people will be upset by the victims distress..but amazingly they are selfish in another way, driven to avoid their own anxieties they go preferring to listen to the non emotional cool head of the abuser's story first as they demand the victim 'calm down'.Pain hurts and all the bully asks is we do nothing,to help the wounded,and forget and deny them so evil can prevail.

The victim on the other hand,asks we FEEL the pain they feel enough to do something real to help them or stop the abuse and change the situation.Pain causes anxiety when it's not your pain.But people need to feel the anxiety and CARE regardless. It takes courage to do this.. So if you have any shred of self dignity ,self honesty and integrity you will seek to learn more about what you are dealing with.
What you do or don't do in a abusive situation be it severe or just a snarky post aimed at another person's weakness tells a lot about your character. Abuse survivors ask we be rightfully outraged to stop the cycle of abuse.. hopefully angry enough to empathize and assert a boundary and take action to do the right things.

If the toxic personality keeps on abusing after the warning then you must leave them, if you can't leave them,or feel you have a right to be where you are, than you either fight back, if you must,remove them away from where you are, or kill them..

The other choice when faced with abusers is to remain in DENIAL.If you choose denial and rationalizing it away, prepare to be targeted as a victim .The bully will insure you go quietly to your cross and take the torture like a victim. The asshole will destroy you and not feel one drop of guilt about it.
So if you prefer denial, do not interfere with those of us that have integrity and intend to keep it .Do keep your mouth shut about, justice, peace love and happiness and that happy joy joy for all thought control crap, or stop enabling bullies with your misplaced pity and absolutist pacifism,stop excusing bullies who hurt others by defending their sadistic bullshit and 'talking points',don't repeat poor pitiful bully whining if that sort of vile game is what you are about..Enabelers are no ally of right relationships,mental health,peace, democracy,love or freedom.Really.They make me sick.

The real issue here I am trying to say here is is what to do about the use and abuse of power. The abuse of trust,abuse of love,and when to trust and love.It's about handling violations of boundaries and what to do with intolerable situations and how to STOP the abuse of power.That's what all this boils down to.

Love does not "cure all" it never has, it never will.
Ask any domestic violence counselor or survivor of abuse.

Pacifism and love works on people who can feel love and shame and are willing to change their behaviors because they VALUE other people around them self enough to not desire to break others boundaries on purpose,This means they are SENSITIVE and can feel others pain through empathy and don't want to cause unnecessary harm to others because it HURTS.

But there is a flip side that nice ideal,that is crazy making,and it is a common form of belief that has no grounding in reality beyond a certain limited view of reality, it manifests as misplaced tolerance,by-standing when you could have stood up, or outright enabling through a set of beliefs.Authoritarian,psychopathy and narcissism desires for us and every person who has been traumatized to swallow this utopian ideal of total tolerance and unconditional love and endless forgiveness .This is because DOING unconditional love is intolerable for the toxic personality they want it DONE FOR THEM.

All because they like to violate others boundaries and get away with it.Some beliefs like you control your own reality,positive thinking CBT,pacifism,total tolerance,and unconditional love and forgiveness is found and misapplied in some forms of "therapy"', some religion and a lot of new age beliefs, make exploiting easier for the bully to do to us.. The toxic personality however hates adhering to any boundaries on his conduct in society and the toxic person is not gonna do what he tells others they must do..

Some people do not feel sensitive to others pain for reasons we may never know.They are obviously missing the mechanism in us that gives us internal restraints on our own behaviors based in empathy and love for self/other, the thing that makes us humane.. Toxic personalities are lacking conscience(the inner cop that works through conscience or our inner locus of control that gives us self governance)

These toxic personalities think the law is for the inferior people.Sheep.etc. Some violate boundaries to entertain themselves.So being bored, they are playing the GAME of power over and winning, ruthlessly. That is all they can conceive that life is about.Reward and punishment and getting away with it all..Everything is a game to them even relationships, intimacy love and power.

The toxic personality will seek power to abuse power and break boundaries they get in by aiming to exploit those who are"tolerant" "pacifist"or ignorant of abuse dynamics, they speak in our language than softly, kindly and appear to be something they are not..Preying on those weak in self love, and confidence,and weak in body or mind.They make targets of the gentlest most ethical yet most blind to torment the emotion out of them, to get a rise out of them, because the abuser is entertained by others misery and upsets..Sometimes you have to assert a boundary with a gun, in some intolerable situations that's the reality we must face.We are locked on a planet with many soul assassins and killers of quality of life what can we do?

Killing may be required of each of us if the person you are seeking to force to stop hurting you,desires to torture/and or/destroy you,even though you are not out to destroy them, you can't be tolerant of their choices and behaviors anymore.They will destroy you and not feel one drop of guilt about it. Boundaries are what's needed to survive in this uncontrollable, unpredictable, sometimes dangerous and indifferent world..

And this idea of absolute trust in love cannot make the intolerable be tolerable for anyone if they just believe hard enough.For some love is not like magic pixie dust,if you love it it will change.Change through love does not happen for ALL people.Psychopaths already see themselves as perfect so they see no need to change authoritarians and narcissists carry that same blindness to their own asshole .We are inferiors bound by silly rules off conduct and inner locus of control, that any toxic personality has a right to exploit in the bullies thinking.
These personalities when they know others disapprove of what they choose to do, they do it,because they consider themselves above obeying conduct rules that help us live together,to the point others like me and you are as fools to be used and abused tormented for a bullies entertainment and pleasure.

Loving what is out to torture you for kicks and force you to bow down and obey them, is sick.It is sicker even when inside you your own heart is in conflict about tolerating this and you suffer it anyway. This is a form of self/other destruction,and social destruction and it's social soul/self soul suicide and murder of the victim/target of the abuser too.

And for me that shit is intolerable and has got to stop.Maybe I see this because I am not stuck in a just world hypothesis that many people who have not been abused never shake off enough to really know the world is not good or just all the time.

Another sort of a subtle kind of sickness in some people,and the ones calling themselves 'pacifists' and it is in many well meaning people as well.Society overlooks the bystanders crimes because they see their overarching belief in 'tolerance' of the intolerable with rose colored glasses. but what that is,really , is enabling abuse..abuse again of the target/victim who's boundaries have been run over by the abuser already , next the person who tolerates the toxic mean person by being kind to the abuser, and denying the victims voice is also an abuser by proxy.To stop the games means you STOP the games and get over your beliefs and look at how things really ARE...and draw some limits lest we all suffer from a few people's ignorance driven belief fueled misplaced tolerance.

Love is not the answer for relating to a bully. But anger at the bully wounding love is the answer to bullies.Do you love,love itself enough to protect the love inside you and your relationships by REFUSING love to those who seek to destroy love and destroy right relationships?

Do you give your expressions of love the depth to have claws and use a voice with sharp words sometimes to defend love..or is love in you view so dangerous of a motive when used in the name of justice? Is Love always suffering helpless and bleeding like a dove nailed to a cross? Must Love always be de-clawed and crying bloody tears and suffer a broken heart or it is not really Love? Is that that kind of love you speak of like a dove dying on a cross,as bully shooting spitballs at it,laughing it patiently endures..is your view of love so "tolerant" of un-lovingness that is lets those that hate life and will not give love to anything trample it forever? Is being a martyr for an asshole, love or stupidity?
How loving is it tolerance of the intolerable?

Think about it.

[bobbolink]

1. "I find the biggest barrier to change

on a cultural scale comes from people who have not faced traumas bad enough for them to see reality as it IS and understand this.. "

What you said here is so true, and so important! Minimizing the pain, hurt and disability that comes from trauma is rampant in our "Rugged Individualist" society, common on DU, and the most ugly part of life that we face.

I've given up thinking that people can be educated to be more caring and understanding. It certainly doesn't work at DU, and I don't see it having much of an affect anywhere else.

I don't see an end to the toxicity. It's allowed just about everywhere, including DU, and will only end when so many are so sick of being hurt and abused that they refuse to tolerate it anymore. We've a long way to go before reaching that point.

Love and trust are out of fashion now.

:cry:

[undergroundpanther]

3. I know

But in time it will be understood..

Because our planet is about to die from being abused.1 in 4 girls are raped before age 18 eventually trauma will have a saturation point in a population and when that is reached, is when denial is no longer effective as a coping tool for a culture or a world.
and it is than we go back to the days when an abuser was observed and then eliminated.Or we die

Some tribes like the Cherokee were not tolerant of rape for instance.

Cherokee justice and commitment to each others well being and the bonds of close knit kin networks where everyone knew each other well enough made it tough on the abusers to get away with crimes in their midst.

A rapist that was caught raping would be whipped 50 times and have his ear notched. A missing ear so everyone knew he was a rapist. The next time, 100 lashes and his other ear notched,I bet that notch scar really reduced his access to victims ,alone.
The third time he raped or attempted it he was caught,than dragged out to the center area of the camp and killed and disposed of.
With justice like that rape did not turn into serial rape like what happens nowadays with 1 rapist raping many times before he is even caught, the tribe would kill the rapist before it got that far out of control.
So they were safer than we are regarding crimes like rape.

Some tribal cultures saw psychopathic tendencies like bullying over weening ambition,too much individuality,to the point it became obnoxious,competitiveness in the wrong contexts, selfishness,sexual exploitation,abuse of power, greed and such as bad things. In other words they were a PRO social community.
http://www.coax.net/people/lwf/FIP_PT1.HTM

Other tribes were just horrible to live in.Some were pro social others not so.It would be interesting to find out how many of the anti social tribes were hierarchical dominated by an authority and what concentrations of psychopaths or toxic personalities were in the bad tribes.

We could if our culture didn't have this our consumer and atomized civilization is superior to every other way of life belief,take the lessons from both kinds of tribes and learn what to do and not do to build a community.But that's a hard task in this sick empire that will not tolerate a pro social community within it if it threatens to overshadow the empire.

[bobbolink]

6. Indians and violence and justice

So interesting that you bring this up--last week I met a couple of Indian women who are deeply involved with preventing violence against native women. I'm going to be seeing them again tomorrow.

They have a handout with a GREAT piece in the form of a circle (of course), and it is so well-written that I wish I could send it to you. However, it's apparently not on the web anywhere. I've even had a librarian try to find it for me, but no luck.

The anglos, of course, screwed up Indian societies, and brought in violence where there was none before. Now, many of them are going back to their traditions to try to rectify the situation.

"But that's a hard task in this sick empire that will not tolerate a pro social community within it if it threatens to overshadow the empire."

Oh, absolutely! Take away the profits of the shrinks and the pill-makers? Harumph!!

Great post!

[GeorgeGist]

2. Tough Love

[undergroundpanther]

4. Not tough love

Tough love is an authoritarian mind-fuck to excuse the abuse of kids more than it is to stop toxic personalities from abusing people.

Tough love advocates believe torturing a person produces growth of character. I think torture and bullying does NOT help anyone develop any character ,it just traumatizes the person and teaches fear that appears as obedience to authority and the seeking of reward and avoiding punishment,to survive also this kind of abuse is a betrayal and it causes a profound mistrust of people with power and it fosters learned helplessness in the face of abusive toxic people.In other words tough love amounts to don't bite the masters hand,the one he smacks you with..

What I was speaking of was about creating and protecting pro-social BOUNDARIES in the personal and public. Not"tough love".

I am making no assertion that psychopaths, authoritarians and narcissists will grow a conscience by being tortured or humiliated. Or they'd grow a conscience by me or my society enforcing sane boundaries against their ass-holey conduct.
Too much tolerance or "tough love" does not change the essential issue of the psychopathy problem and our culture's needing to find some clear flexible but not too flexible pro social boundaries and enforcing them in a way that is effective in stopping abusers even if it means killing a few..

What I am saying is we do have to love ourselves and each other enough to not be apathetic to each others suffering, but that's not 'tough love'.A It is not "tough love" to desire and do what is required protect ourselves from abuse.I have no love for what seeks to traumatize and destroy me.To love a toxic personality is to love who seeks to destroy my mind heart body and spirit.
I don't want someone that likes causing me torment to assume they can get away with doing it by my lack of boundaries.

There is no growth or benefits to the abusers intended or implied by what I was trying to say about boundaries in my OP. I am not arguing for putting the "tough love" thumbscrews on the assholes.

I am stating a distinct need for an educated population in regards to dealing with toxic people. And forming self and social defenses with sane boundaries to protect us against people who choose to destroy our lives,exploit us, and want to desensitize us,abuse us and shut down our voices and cripple our emotions.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/28/AR2006012800062_pf.html

[bobbolink]

5. "Tough love is an authoritarian mind-fuck "

!!!!!

:applause: :applause: :applause:

:yourock:

You've given the best response by MILES!!!

Can I quote you?!

Yes, Yes, YES!

Mindfuck, indeed!

And so misused.... it was originally meant to be used for those who are so deeply embedded in denial that they couldn't be reached. How is that love?! But, it's so much easier to do the confronting that is supposed to be "tough love", that it came to be used for all of us.

LOVE?? I think not!

No wonder we're so confused about "love".

"It's because I love you", he says as he beats her.

"I love you so much that I can't do without you. If I can't have you, nobody else can," he says as he stabs her to death.

"tough love"

Yup, no wonder love confuses and frightens us!