Stan Goff's being threatened with foreclosure for growing vegetables

[noamnety]

I live in a modest subdivision in Northwest Raleigh (annexed five years ago into the city limits). Last year, inspired by the politics of food as well as my love of fresh, unpoisoned vegetables, I cleared about 800 square feet of useless grass and “decorative” landscaping, as well as two large stumps, in the front yard. My back yard is almost completely shaded by mature oaks and faces Northeast, making it less than ideal for sun exposure. That’s why I used the front. I terrraced one particularly bad runoff section of ex-lawn, hand tilled it with shovel and hoe, abutted it with stones, and mulched it to high heaven. The former “landscaped” section I sectioned off into meandering beds with mulched walkways between them. I planted some veggies last year, and we had very good luck all summer with the basics: cucumbers, tomatoes, zucchini, yellow squash, and some herbs.

...

This winter, I prepared the soil carefully, adding great mounds of organic compost, lime, and bone meal. When Spring rolled in, I planted spinach, radishes, turnips, carrots, sugar snaps, bush beans, and kale. I also interspersed flowers in the ground and in pots, and the parsley, oregano, rosemary, and thyme had all survived winter on their own (and flowered this year). it looked very good, and people who walked past commented to that effect.

...

Anyway, today I received a two letters in one envelope, dated June 14 and June 29, from Charleston Management Corporation, who handles the dirty work for the HOA (home owner's association). the June 29 letter told me I’d been warned in the June 14 letter (which I first received in the same envelope today) that vegetable gardens are not allowed in front yards here.

My garden is just starting to produce tomatoes, and my okra, cucumbers, squash (and all that summery stuff) is just beginning. Also cantaloupes, and I’m still getting turnips, carrots, and kale like mad.

I have until July 14th to remove my vegetable garden. I checked the architectural and landscaping standards, and sure enough, no veggies allowed… also no herbs. But I have a legal question. Does that mean that nothing edible can be grown? I mean, rosemary is used all over here as a hedge. How does one legally determine what is decorative and what is edible, and that ne’er the twain shall meet?

Any legal advice is welcome.

...

Long story short, I have to haul away the piled up brush I was using for bird habitat alongside the house; and now I have to hide my compost heap. But I really really really don’t want to uproot my food.

This HOA was successfully sued in 1999 for trying to levy fines on someone. But the text of their bullshit legal document says the can foreclose for violations.

Please send this to anyone who knows about htis stuff, and post comments here, so others who are facing the same crap can see what’s up.

http://stangoff.com/?p=515

1. This pisses me off because he's a friend, but also the issue itself is one that's been on my radar for awhile. The right to grow food is at its heart, political: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3284116

2. Anyone have any legal advice on this? Anyone successfully fought this sort of thing before?

3. If you don't know who Stan is, he's this guy.

(he's okay with me quoting more than 4 paragraphs.)

[Cerridwen]

1. I'm only good for a K & R here -

no help with legal hassles with HOAs.

Any reason for the no veggie garden stuff in the landscaping standards?

[Captain Angry]

3. My dad can't put a shade tree in his yard.

Because the covenants of the HOA won't allow it. The landscaping standards in his covenants are way strict.

It's crap. The whole reason covenants came along was to prevent your neighbors from parking stuff on their lawn or painting their house bright purple. It got extended and expanded to the levels we have now.

[Cerridwen]

7. Yeah. Give control to control freaks and watch 'em go

nutso.

The people who are best in those positions don't want the position and the people who want the position are the worst to have in it.

[trof]

41. You're right about who's in charge...kinda.

It's like pulling teeth to get anyone to serve on our POA's board.
And the ones who won't serve are the first to rant and rave about something in a meeting.

Apparently we just don't have any empire builders in our neighborhood.

I'm serving my 3rd (and last!) 3 year term since we moved here in 1993. And this year, by default, I'm the prez.
Lucky me.

Happily, our covenants are not very restrictive.
By now, I'm pretty damn familiar with the few rules we do have.
And almost all of the complaining calls I get are from people who think a neighbor shouldn't be able to do something, so it must be in the covenants that he can't.

"John has his boat and trailer in his driveway. Would you send him a letter telling him he can't do that?"
And I say "If there were anything in the covenants that said he couldn't do that, I sure would. But there isn't. Please read your covenants next time. Thank you."

The most common complaint is "You can't DO that!"
And the most common answer is "Well...yes you can."

Coming here from the woods of southern NH with pretty much NO restrictions on what I could do on my 3 acres, I was a bit apprehensive about living in a neighborhood.

The 'restrictive' covenants were surprisingly not very restrictive.
Mainly about minimum square footage for homes (1500 waterfront, 1800 inland) and lot setbacks and side yards. We weren't in the city then, and the county had no zoning regs.

"What are the POA dues?" I asked the seller.
"$80."
"Wow, $80 a month. That's not so bad."
"Oh no no no, EIGHTY DOLLARS A YEAR."
I could live with that.
;-)

[wryter2000]

62. Covenants

Also used to be used to keep the wrong people out. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink. Blech.

[Captain Angry]

69. No doubt.

My dad's neighborhood is way too new for that. But I know exactly what you mean.

[Jed Dilligan]

80. I thought the original reason for covenants

was to exclude blacks and Jews.

:hide:

[Captain Angry]

2. I'm not a lawyer. But...

1: The Home Owners Association does not hold his mortgage, therefore they don't get to throw around the term foreclose. The worst they can do is fine him. So he needs to check his covenants to determine what the fines are and for how long they can accumulate and if there is a cap.

2: He could appeal to the HOA, since it should theoretically be made up of fellow homeowners. He could petition his neighbors and attempt to have that section written out of the covenants.

I had my fill of covenants, and sold my house. I am now saving and waiting for the right spot of land to come along. And I *will* be planting my own vegetables wherever I feel like it on that land.

Good luck to him!

[noamnety]

6. Will you post that over there?

I wonder if the other homeowners would sign a petition. I don't see how anyone could object to vegetables. :(

[Cerridwen]

8. Careful - HOAs can fine, then put a lien on a property for not paying

the fine.

Some can also foreclose.

I lost the link - I'll be back to post it as soon as I can find it again.

edit to add: I lost the damned link! But, I agree with Patrick - best advice is get a lawyer. HOAs can be hazardous to your mental and financial health.


edit typo

[Captain Angry]

11. I forgot about that.

Hence the disclaimer I had in my post.

My HOA tried to get uppity with me. I sold the house. Let them have somebody else to step on.

But definitely waving a lawyer at them will make them reevaluate how important it is to the HOA to make him conform.

[dogday]

19. Yes they can, and they will, and they have

in my city.... If you don't pay the fines, they go for foreclosure, that simple and they usually get it... It is a shame in my book...

[Cerridwen]

21. So I've heard.

Amazing, isn't it, what people will do to people to "keep them in line."

[PATRICK]

9. Get a lawyer

All I know is from experience. One guy I know here has an eyesore of large trees crowding his yard like a jungle. He held off the Homeowners' predictable lawsuits and his poor neighbors for years. the only reason he started pruning the trees back might be because they are lifting his house off its foundations, I don't know. he shrugged off all demands and got a lawyer. Another guy with homegrown wildflowers(weeds) was less successful but that was because it was the local government that lowered the boom, not a pretentious pipsqueak like an HOA. because it was the government it was the latter case, quite common, which got a photospread fully story in the papers. No reporter ventured to one of the seven natural forest wonders of the Finger Lakes for a wilder story because it was a little HOA affair.

If you don't want to be intimidated or roll over or rail uselessly and get despairing, if sympathetic, advice from police and many other non-experts, simply get a GOOD lawyer who knows specifically about this stuff. That takes research too. The HOA will try to operate as a pseudo government even if the local government has jurisdiction and gives permits on the same issues. This is simply a job for an advocate lawyer with expertise.

[The Backlash Cometh]

16. H.O.A.s have enough power to take your house.

If you don't pay your fees, they can put a lien on your house. I think our H.O.A. even tried to foreclose someone in my development.. They have more power than cities do, in that way. Homeowners can fight back, but, it will be in the courts, and if the H.O.A. has powerful connections in the community, good luck getting fair justice.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer.

Edited to add the lien info.

[trof]

42. About liens:

Yes, HOAs can file a lien against your property for non-compliance with covenants.
And it probably won't matter a bit to you until you sell the house.
Then you have to clear the lien to give clear title.
In most cases the dollar amount is a few hundred dollars or less.
Hardly enough to take your property.

But, again, it depends entirely on what your covenants say.
And you should have known that going in.

[The Backlash Cometh]

46. No one can ever know everything, going in.

Especially if you are moving into a devious community which has a history of amendments they never filed with public records. If the city has a copy, then it's valid, but you'll never know it existed unless you go digging in their files. You'll never even know if it was drafted properly.

Then you have the adverse possessions in the community and how they affect your rights to the common grounds. And how they may have been possessed improperly when homeowners took over the board to advance their adverse possession claims. Though this is a clear breach of fiduciary responsibility, where are you going to go when the entire community is pro-property rights and they support these kind of good ole boy manifest destiny take-overs? What court? The entire State is corrupted this way, I'm convinced.

So, the best idea I've heard here, is if his HOA is corrupt, get those petitions and fight back, because only in numbers are you going to succeed. Reason has been thrown out the window, and might makes right.

[trof]

47. Our HOA can not operate that way, by law and by bylaws.

It is practically impossible to change or amend the covenants.
Bylaws say we have to get 80% of property owners to vote in favor of a change.
Good luck with that.
We can't even get 80% to VOTE, one way or the other.

[The Backlash Cometh]

48. Know any one in the movie business who wants to make a movie about

a disasterous HOA situation? Send them my way. I'm convinced that there are places in America which have such deep dark secrets that the rules are intentionally suspended. Here's a potential title: "It takes a village to hide a secret."

[noamnety]

90. I like this idea.

(and I suggest posting it over there, also.)

[The Backlash Cometh]

92. Posting, over where?

[noamnety]

93. Oh, sorry, on his blog

http://stangoff.com/?p=515

I meant to put in the OP that if anyone has useful advice/interesting comments, to please consider posting 'em over there. It's kinda funny to have 12 comments there and 90+ over here behind his back. :)

I know he has at least one indie film maker who frequents his blog, though. And personally, I think it's a cool idea for a film.

[The Backlash Cometh]

99. Thanks.

I'll give it a shot.

[Kingshakabobo]

66. Re: The mortgage.

When one enters in to a mortgage on a property controlled by an association, the borrower executes a rider to the mortgage agreeing to comply with the covenants. The rider usually stipulates that the lender can pay, at their discretion, fines to prevent their lien being superseded by the association. The lender will then go after the borrower for the money and/or foreclose if necessary. Two things can usually supersede lender's first liens - property taxes and association dues. That's why they would prefer to pay them and deal with the borrower.......I'm referring to Fannie Mae/Freddi Mac conventional guidelines.

As a side note: These are some of the reasons Fannie/Freddie considers condominium lending slightly higher risk.....

I'm a mortgage banker.....I did a loan last year for a friend that didn't pay his association dues for over a year. The association received a court judgment against him and gave him ninety days to pay up or they would evict him and rent his property - collecting the rents to satisfy the lien (and substantial legal fees)and leaving him to fend for himself on the loan. Of course he waited, out of embarrassment, till the last minute to contact me. Fortunately, I was able to get his loan handled 2 days before the sheriff came.

Like you said, smaller liens can be paid at closing either by paying off a lien or the association refusing to issue a "paid assessment letter" to the title company/new lender.

[trof]

45. Very good (and sane) advice.

[Trillo]

4. Dontcha know that its every corporate merchants' god given right

to have the entire community of surrounding homes buy food from them? That there happen to be a couple or three 'grocery stores' under different ownership matters not to the bigger plan of development of consumers' corporate dependence.

[Elwood P Dowd]

5. I have a garden in front of the front yard

but my yard is 4-5 acres located out in the country. It's a pain in the ass keeping up the yard and garden, but veggies from anywhere else taste like crap in comparison to those from my garden. I feel for you.

[nam78_two]

10. No advice but here is a K&R

Hopefully you will get some help.

[napi21]

12. Be careful with this. HOA's have been granted a lot of power, and

when you buy a house in an area you accept the obligation of abiding by the HOA's rules. If you could get a group of your neighbors together to support you, you could petition the HOA for a waiver or exemption to this section of their rules.

I would also suggest talking to a lawyer. It should be realtively inexpensive to have a simple meeting and pay him to write a letter to the HOA. See what the lawyer has to say your options are.

I too lived in a SD in Tx. that had an HOA. Our rules weren't terribly harsh, but some other SD's we WILD! My coworker wasn't allowed to let his garage door open except to pull his cars in or out. He had to keep the cars IN the garage, and the car wasn't to just sit in the driveway for more than 1/2 hr. without being "put away". I can understand people not wanting their neighbors parking junk cars in their driveway, leaving trash cans on the sidewalk for days, painting their house neon pink, etc. but some of these groups are getting out of control!

[noamnety]

18. I've never heard of the 1/2 hour car rule

That's insane!

Not as insane as banning vegetables maybe, but still pretty crazy. Who does it hurt?!!

[napi21]

31. "Who does it hurt?" They think the homes LOOK better when there's

no vehicles in the driveways and the doors are all closed! STUPID? Yep! I honestly wonder what kind of people sit around a table thinking up this stuff? Again, I do understand some of the rules. I know right now it pi&&es me off that my neighbor, who has 2 teenage kids, waits until his grass is looking like a hay field before it gets cut! But we don't have a HOA here, and I guess I have to put up with hayfields next door rather than having someone tell me what I can or can't plant and where!

[emilyg]

22. My HOA

We have to get approval from the Board before any outside changes are made - such as replacing windows, doors. Limit on pets allowed.
Not allowed to grow vegetables, flowers only. They can place a liean on your house. They can fine you. Seek attorney advice.

[me b zola]

13. We refuse to buy anywhere that has a HOA or covenant

Last year we found the perfect 20 acres that we wanted to buy. We thought our dreams had come true until the realitor mentioned the covenant. It was a deal breaker for us, and subsequently we are still in the city.

I wish Stan the best of luck, I would love to see the courts bat the hell out of HOAs & covenants.

[noamnety]

14. I'm lucky, I don't have one.

But this sort of nonsense angers me no end.

Cities shouldn't allow rules that are destructive to be put in place, imho.

[The Backlash Cometh]

15. HOA's are evil.

Go check your Attorney General's webpage and look to see if they have on-line access to their Attorney General's Opinions <AGO's>. Do searches for H.O.A.s and regulations. They are not legal opinions, but they do carry some water. If it's anything like in Florida, you'll find that your Homeowner's Association should have performed due diligence to keep the H.O.A.'s authority active and objective. One of those things, for example, would have been periodic mailings of the regulations to all homeowners to make sure everybody was on the same page, and then, oopsy, you planted a vegetable garden, so there they are to remind you.

However, I see two problems <I'm not a lawyer, btw, just a perpetual victim of an evil H.O.A.> First, they should have slapped you with that letter when you first started clearing your garden last year. And second, if they didn't perform due diligence with regular mailings of H.O.A. regulations, it does appear that they are singling you out.

Check with a H.O.A. attorney, but if you walk in with the AGO's, you may be surprised to learn you know more than they do.

Oh, make sure you have an attorney who has never represented the H.O.A. That would be a conflict of interest, I would think.

[zabet]

17. I cannot give legal advice....

thank goodness I live on a farm in the country and do not have to deal with this.
We grow vegetables and raise our meat.

[bleedingheart]

20. This is one of the reasons I live in a neighborhood without a HOA

they can take legal action and they can force him out....when he bought the home all of this would have been pointed out to him.

There is a couple in Florida ( I think) who is selling their home because their HOA forbids residents to have children....and they are raising a grandchild whose mother is drug addicted...

[Richard Steele]

23. He needs a lawyer willing to get muddy, and as much PUBLICITY as possible. K&R

[Triana]

24. I h8 HOAs ...

... and Stan is my neighbor too and an upstanding guy. I hope someone can help him!

[Tsiyu]

25. The world is upside down

I really do grieve over Stan's little patch of food being threatened. I sit here wondering what the Native Americans and settlers would think of a community in 2007 that refuses to allow people to grow their own vegetables.

How rigid have we become because some of us want to live in Anal Retentive World?

He can try to appeal but if I were him I would sell and move somewhere where he can have more freedom to use his own property as he wishes. Where I live, a lush garden in the front yard is a source of pride, as it should be. Having a garden is healthy for the body and pocketbook and communities should encourage their residents to do what Stan is doing.

Til then, one suggestion is to make extensive flower beds rambling up next to the house - if there is enough sun - and intersperse his veggies with the flowers. At this point, most wouldn't take well to transplanting, though.

Hope his plants get a pardon.

The world is upside down.

[MatrixEscape]

28. Yes, upside down and inside out ...

and subject to change without notice.

As bio-fuels keep pushing up food prices by competing for crops and petroleum/energy costs continue to rise, I wonder how long it will be before those living in HOA gulags will wish they had even a small garden to harvest food from.

It is so hard to understand buying a home so that other people can tell you what you can and can't do to it, in it and around it. Yes, I can see no neon green paint or life-size elephant statues, but the rest can be rather ridiculous. Ahhh, but here in America, we know that control equals a form of safety for many ... only the odd ducks complain about the wonderful rules that create walls around us.

[formercia]

34. Tell them you grow tomatoes for the flowers.

those pesky fruit.

[mondo joe]

53. What's upside down is choosing to join a HOA and then crying about it.

I don't like HOAs, so I don't belong to one, and wouldn't choose to do so.

[DarkTirade]

26. k&r, wish I knew what advice to give. :(

[dysfunctional press]

27. ummm...technically, aren't MOST plants 'vegetables'..."

definition number 5 in my random house/webster's dictionary defines vegetable as : "of or having to do with plants".

seems to me that a good lawyer should be able to construe that to mean that ANYBODY who has ANY plants in their front yard is in violation of the hoa rules.

[noamnety]

76. That's a great point.

I elaborated some on it, on his blog. The comment's not moderated in yet, but as I wrote there, broccoli is just an edible flower, as are day lilies and carnations. So I assume if he plants day lilies, and brings them to a meeting and eats them there, they'd have a legal right to demand he remove those plants - and if he has to remove them, so should everyone else in the association.

[struggle4progress]

29. Chapter 47F: North Carolina Planned Community Act

http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/ByChapter/Chapter_47F.html

Googling indicates the issue is complicated. He should get as much info as possible about the homeowners association, including the documents establishing it and copies of its current procedures. And he should get a lawyer immediately. If he's smart, he won't run his mouth at the HOA about what he intends to do or what he thinks are the potential weaknesses in their position.

[K8-EEE]

30. Can't he request a waiver??

I can see if he let his front yard to to hell or something....but I know where I live (no HOA though) we are zoned R-1 meanint one residence per lot is the only permissable land use, but some people bought 2 houses and knocked them down, THEN requested a waiver from the city to build a synagogue. They only needed to collect signatures from the neighbors and ask the city planners for a meeting and they got the zoning changed.

Perhaps if he got signatures on a petition from his neighbors and presented it to the HOA, and made some kind of mitigating factor (how about some tall hedges?) they would grant him an exception.

I think our country is getting less and less free with this "ownership society" bullshit. Reminds me of the thing where the guy couldn't take a picture of downtown because downtown was privately owned.

[mrbscott19]

32. HOA's should never be allowed....thats what town ordinances are for

I still have a hard time understanding how someone that owns a property can have someone else tell them what they can and can't do with it. Whats the point of buying if thats the case? It's more or less a rental at that point.

[mondo joe]

51. HOAs are voluntary. Are you actually saying people should not be permitted to

voluntarily join associations or form contracts?????

[nolabels]

33. Change the nomenclature from HOA to communists then it will make more sense.......

Like if anybody thinks the USA and others under it's various sphere of influence doesn't mirror what is left of USSR and China then they must be blind :shrug:

[Kingshakabobo]

58. LOL. We call our association 'The Commune' or 'The Compound'.....

....but we all get along, watch each other's houses/pets and hang out in the yard together. So far it has worked out......it's kinda weird being that close with your neighbors.........kinda commie like.

:)

[mondo joe]

68. I'm not in an HOA - but we call it The Compound too. My kids' moms live

next door, and their lifelong friends live behind us, and then some other families moved in right nearby. So we all share each others' yards, watch the pets, and the kids run through all the houses and eat whereever there's food.

[nolabels]

79. Maybe the pejorative don't fit at any rate

Has more to do with the authoritarian- control freak nature of people who have no idea of other's needs. My brother lives next door, our mother out behind him, we borrow our neighbors tractor and take care of his animal stock when he is away. All of us in the area watch out for each other and help who ever needs help. The point being we don't get into other peoples business unless it's asked for. The people who need dress-right-dress uniformity of everybody else are the ones that don't have enough brains to manage their own life.
It's actually simple arithmetic :shrug:

Btw, if Mr.Goff wants to grow vegetables he should move somewhere that he has a place to do it. Lastly, a lot of times i come to D.U. to see what i am not missing.

H.O.A. :puke:

[OneBlueSky]

35. well, he should be safe with tomatoes . . . they're fruits, not veggies . . .

maybe he should plant the entire area with tomatoes, and then bargain with the HOA -- I'll diversify and make it look nice if you'll lay off . . .

[trof]

36. I'm president of an HOA.

If the covenants of his subdivision say no veggie gardens in front yard, then that's that.

Sorry for your friend.
He should have read the covenants.
When you buy a house in a neighborhood that has restrictive covenants you have tacitly agreed to abide by them. They are usually presented by the seller, or realtor, before closing, but no later than closing. It's a legally binding contract and can be even more restrictive than local zoning regs.

As to whether they can 'foreclose' on his house, that also depends on what the covenants say.

In our case, if a resident is in violation and refuses to comply, we must figure what the dollar amount financial effect/loss is (highly theoretical in many cases) and then file a lien against the property in that amount. We're usually talking about a few hundred dollars at most, not nearly enough to take the property in lieu of payment.

Again, it depends entirely on what HIS covenants say.

I'm about to file liens against 2 members for non-payment of annual dues. The payment deadline was Jan. 1. I've sent repeated requests for payment.

To my knowledge it's the first time we've had to do this.
130 lousy dollars for the entire year. And this is a fairly upscale neighborhood.

Good luck to your friend, but I suspect the law is against him.

[Tsiyu]

40. Do you feel more safe and secure

having so much control over other people's lives?

I'm trying to understand people who abide by every jot and tittle, people for whom the law is more important than their neighbor man and woman.

And please explain why an association would find a veggie garden to be detrimental to the community.

Thanks.

[trof]

44. I LOVE to grind people under my heel. See my post #41.

I have very, very little 'control' over other people's lives.
I am president this year because:
1. We have to have one, and
2. No one else would take the job.

The board of directors elects officers.
I pleaded with others to take the office of president.
"Nope."
"No way."
"I'll serve on the board, but no way I'll be the president."

Well, I guess we could have sat there with our thumbs up our asses and reported to the membership that we were unable to elect a president.
But there are common areas to be kept up and bills to be paid and our bylaws say that's what the officers and board of directors have to do.

And most of the folks here would rather have a full colonoscopy than serve on the board, even though it's not that tough a job.
But it does take a little time away from their precious lives and schedules.
:eyes:

[noamnety]

49. I think most folks would rather have a full colonoscopy

than be in a position to start foreclosing procedures over a vegetable in the front yard. :)

So if your board wanted to change a covenant or grant an exemption, how would they go about doing it?

[trof]

54. First, we can not 'foreclose' on a piece of property.

We can file a lien against the property (as is well explained in our covenants and bylaws) for non-payment of dues or financial damage suffered due violations.

I'm about to file the first 2 liens we've ever done.
The dues bills (a whopping $130 annually) go out Jan.1 every year and must be paid by the 31st.
I've sent these two deadheads two subsequent notices and they've just blown us off. I don't know what the problem is. This has never happened before.
We have bills to pay for utilities and upkeep of common areas.
Everyone has to pay their fare share.
I mean $130 for the YEAR?
In a neighborhood where the average home price is over $500,000?
Come on.

The board has the power to grant exemptions and has, twice that I know of.
Long story, but one of our elderly members just could not pay her dues. Her house was on the market. We just waived them.
Mobile homes aren't allowed, but after Hurricane Ivan we waived that for folks who wanted to live in motorhomes or trailers while their homes were rebuilt.
Pretty damned nasty, hunh?
;-)

We CAN NOT change the covenants.
80% of the members must vote to make a change.
As I said in another post, we can't even get an 80% turnout to vote, one way or the other.

I'm sure other POAs have much more restrictive rules and regs, but that's just not the way ours operates.

[Kingshakabobo]

64. LOL. I got Shanghai'd in to being president because I missed a meeting.

No one else would do it. I wasn't able to attend the meeting so I sent a letter asking for permission to install a sky-light in my unit. When I got home that night my neighbor told me the other owners said "OK, as long as you take over the president's job." It was done with a smmile.....a little friendly extortion from the neighbors.

That said, I'd rather be president than treasurer. The treasurer actually has to do work every month (we are self managed).

[trof]

70. Oh yeah...NEVER miss a meeting.

The rest of the bastids will elect you to something.
That happened to us a while back.
The 'president' so elected was absolutely worthless.
Almost got the whole association sued by the city.

[mondo joe]

50. People in HOA's cede control over their lives, by choice.

No one is forced to enter a HOA.

I don't like them, so I never would.

But for those who choose to do so and THEN complain, I have no pity.

[trof]

55. There ya go.

[Roland99]

37. Why didn't he read thru his HOA documentation earlier? Caveat emptor.

Sorry but not much sympathy here. But this is just one of many reasons I would NEVER live someplace that had an HOA.

[Vinca]

38. I couldn't stand living under a HOA, but that's beside the point.

What do you have to do to change the landscaping laws? Go door to door and convince everyone it needs to be changed. What kind of people would kill a ripe tomato??????

[IDemo]

39. I predict this type of thing will become much more common within a couple of years

As the dollar sinks further, and energy and food costs skyrocket. We have just a few raised beds in a small backyard, but what I would really like to do is take out the water-sucking front lawn and plant some fruit trees and additional vegetables. Covenants are basically non-enforced in this area. We have a shed, gasp! next to the fence!, as do the neighbors. This would be pushing things a bit, though. May have to pursue it incrementally.

Nowadays one is basically forced to agree to covenants when purchasing a new house unless they are moneyed enough to build on a private lot. I consider covenants to be an infringement on the concept of private property, regardless of whether they are "agreed upon".

side note -- regardless of what your covenant restrictions claim, feel free to place satellite dishes (less than one meter) or tv antennas on your house. The FCC has stated that covenants and zoning restrictions have no power to restrict this. You can be required to place them in a least-visible (from the street) side of the house, but only if such placement will not negatively affect reception.

[SpiralHawk]

43. "All your property & vegetables are belong to us." - republicon mind set

"SHUT UP and eat your mutant cloned irradiated chemicalized preserved food-product facsimile nutrition units."

- republicon corporate mindset

[JanMichael]

52. Get me the name of the HOA. If its a non-profit there are ways...

...to utilize certain fiduciary laws that govern their operations and slam them upside their little dictator heads..

[Liberal Veteran]

56. When I went house shopping, I made it clear to my realtor that covenants were off the table.

And under no circumstances was he to show me a house that would require me to enter into one.

Yeah...it can be interesting living outside of a Stepford neighborhood, such as the house a few doors down that painted their house a hideous shade of blue or the one a couple of doors down that has so many roses in their front yard, I expect to see Prince Charming chopping his way through them any day.

But at least I am free. City ordinances cover all the basics I need (such as if someone had more than one "junk car" on their property or disturbing the peace).

[ecstatic]

57. Reality Check: A clearly visible veggie garden in the front yard is tacky

If I was a neighbor, especially if I was trying to sell my home in this slow market, I'd be pissed too. I bet all sorts of unsightly sticks and rods are in use too, to hold up the plants.

[Liberal Veteran]

59. I can't agree.

I live in an area that has pretty short growing season and you plant your veggies where they get the most sun exposure. Sometimes it's the front, sometimes it's it the back....

But why are vegetables somehow tackier than a manicured lawn? A lawn serves no purpose except MAYBE to prevent erosion.

It may look tacky to you, but it looks to me like someone actually using their property for something useful and productive.

[glitch]

71. That's what makes it tacky - it's practical and not simply conspicuous.

Looking forward to the day when conspicuous consumption is "tacky".

[noamnety]

74. Bravo!

Some people have a remarkable ability to look at a hot pink shirt with rhinestones spelling out "princess" next to a farmer's workshirt, and point to the workshirt and call it tacky.

[glitch]

82. What a world, huh? nt

[wryter2000]

63. Unsightly sticks and rods?

There's not much in life more beautiful than a well-tended vegetable garden. If the guy puts in a bench, I'll sit on it for hours.

[ecstatic]

65. Maybe, but it belongs in a backyard--not the front nt

LOL

[Karenina]

75. Growing FOOD is icky and unsightly

and breastfeeding is just... GROSS!!! DO IT IN THE LATRINE!!!

[noamnety]

78. buahahahaha (nt)

[MissB]

81. .

:applause:

[entanglement]

98. You sound ridiculous - the world doesn't exist for your viewing pleasure

A vegetable garden is FUNCTIONAL goddammit - close your eyes or look the fuck away if it annoys you

[Occulus]

60. I would just love to see HOAs banned outright

There is NO reason we should tolerate a fucking committee telling us what color the paint on our house has to be, how far from the road our mailboxes must be located (and you BETTER not put it in a nonsanctioned area!), and yes, telling us where our gardens can be located in OUR yard, and what may be grown there.

Conservatives cry about the evils of communism/socialism ala China and Cuba, and yet somehow don't realize.... people living under the influence of a homeowner's association may as well be living in the USSR, because they have a marked lack of personal freedom when it comes to the disposition of their own homes and their own property.

I really do wish we could just get rid of HOAs. Their only true function seems to be to trash our right to live the way we wish on the property we own.

Note to realtors: when I finally do get in the market for a home (probably never), homes in an HOA are verboten no matter the quality or the price. Let someone else be willing to be told how to live. I'm a bit more independent than that.

[mondo joe]

67. On what basis should people be prohibited from forming associations or voluntary

contractual agreements?

It's amazing that in the name of "living the way we wish" you want to tell people they can't form agreements as they wish.

[Trillo]

73. We (as in The People) don't allow people to kill themselves.

Prohibiting the growing of food on Gaia is "killing" yourself. Perhaps its a passive form, but it's a form of death nonetheless.

Why don't we allow people to form agreements to kill each other?

[mondo joe]

83. You failed to answer my question.

Is it your position that because the government prohibits people from murdering each other that adults cannot be empowered to make contractual agreements with one another?

[Trillo]

87. Your title is a lie.

I answered that government prevents people from making certain types of contracts.

I really don't wish to argue or debate further with you because of your deceitful title. Good day!

[mondo joe]

89. With your rationale, states that want to ban gay couples from forming contractual relationships are

justified, because, after all, SOME contracts are banned.

:barf:

What you're missing is a legal principle.

[wryter2000]

61. Effing HOA's

I'm a home "owner" (the bank owns the house, but I'm buying it), and I'll be damned if I'll join one of those snobbery societies. Don't people have anything to do with their lives?

The lady across the street put an ugly, old trailer in her driveway once, and the guy next to her wanted me to help him DO something about it. He said, "It'll lower your property value." I looked right back at him and said, "I'm not planning to sell, so I don't care."

The stupid bastards could probably have had some delicious vegetables when his garden made more than he can eat. I wish I lived next door to that eyesore.

[nini]

72. foreclosure??

An HOA cannot foreclose on your home - whomever holds your mortgage does that.

The HOA can fine someone in the association - however there is a big difference between and HOA being assholes and a foreclosure.


If the HOA rules do not specifically address the issue of a vegetable garden in the yard then ther's chance of winning this, however I'd bet they have some reference to keeping one's lawn clean and mowed etc.. which will be their right to do what they are.

[depakid]

77. North Carolina will suffer worse than most in the post peak oil era

Utterly irresponsible land use planning- miles of mindless suburbs and almost a complete lack of public transportation. Couple this with the attitude seen in the OP, and you have an area ripe for collapse.

[Odin2005]

84. HOAs should be banned.

They are nothing but tools of upper-middle class elitists and yuppie wannabe upper-middle class elitists to keep the "wrong" people (I.E. African-Americans, Hispanics, Progressives, "Tree-huggers," "Dirty Hippies," etc., out of thier neighborhood.

[Blue_In_AK]

85. This is why I'm glad I live in a funky.

dubiously zoned, anything-goes section of Old Anchorage even if it may not be the most esthetically pleasing part of town. Homeowner associations are ridiculous.

[likesmountains 52]

86. There is a subdivision near me that banned clothes lines...

[trof]

88. So did one near us.

Lady built a lattice fence around her umbrella type clothesline.
whatever

[knitter4democracy]

91. In the older subdivisions like ours, there are no HOAs anymore.

That's one of the reasons why we bought this house. There were rules at some point, it was even in our legal docs when we closed on the house, but no one seems to know where a copy is or what they are. One of the older guys in the neighborhood is the de facto president, and he has a compost bin and a lovely yard. He doesn't mind my compost pile or my veggies. He's a cool guy.

He should lawyer up and fight. I would. Their definitions need looking at, and he can probably get some other neighbors to join in the fight. I would--I have herbs in my front plantings.

[LiberalHeart]

94. Tell Stan to make the back of the house the front --

He could put a notice on the now-front door telling people to please come to the (new) front door (in what is now the back). By the time HOA battles him over that, the garden will have yielded its goodies. Then tell him to move.

And he can hope he's threatened in an unseemly manner by the HOA's officials. That happened to a friend of mine, she sued, and she's now more than $600,000 richer.

[Kingshakabobo]

95. That's the best advice on this thread! LOL! n/t

[noamnety]

97. Oooh, that's some creative thinking. :) (nt)

[Lars39]

96. Maybe if he called it a Victory Garden...

[youthere]

100. I think it's a silly rule myself but...

that's life under a HOA. I really don't think your friend has any recourse.

[Richard Steele]

101. Tuesday-afternoon kick.