Benazir Bhutto - "Bin Laden was Murdered"

[Malmo Blue]

Run time: 10:51 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLItJMVNleY   Posted on YouTube: December 28, 2007 By YouTube Member: Views on YouTube: 0   Posted on DU: December 28, 2007 By DU Member: Malmo Blue Views on DU: 7286

 
Heard the Benazir Bhutto interview yesterday on Malloy's show and got pretty surprised when I heard Bhutto talk about "the man who murdered Osama bin Laden".
In an interview that was made two months ago, and it hasn't gotten any attention in the mainstream media.

So I took the liberty of putting together a video with clips from the interview and yesterday's show.

[rosesaylavee]

1. Thank you...

And no thank you to the M$M for NOT reporting this story when it happened 6 years ago.

[Whoa_Nelly]

2. K&R

Excellent!
Am also sending the youtube link to Keith O.

Welcome to DU, Malmo Blue! :hi:

And, excellent work! :thumbsup:

[bananas]

3. What were those names? Is there a transcript?

The man who murdered OBL, and the person associated with him?
November 6 David Frost interview.
Thanks for posting this.

edit to add link to related thread:
"Thom Hartmann is Bringing Up the Revelations of Bin Laden's Death"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2545561

[Bitwit1234]

4. Someone posted that on here about the same time as she made it

and we all discussed the fact then that MSM has not mentioned it anywhere. Now that was two months ago...nothing in two months time. Wonder if it will get more play now.

[kansasblue]

5. or here at 6 minutes in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIO8B6fpFSQ

[marylanddem]

6. Kicked & recommended

I first saw this last night - Thanks for posting & Keep spreading the word of this video.

[enid602]

7. bush

Maybe that's why bush doesn't spend much time thinkin' about capturin' Bin Laden. See, he's not so stupid after all!

[99th_Monkey]

41. and it also means all those OBL videos came from SOMEwhere.

gee ... i wonder where?

[Swagman]

43. video tapes !!..why hasn't a Saudi billionaire gone digital yet ?

[Oilwellian]

8. This really is an astounding bit of news

Excellent job Malmo Blue. I'm glad to see Kathy get the credit she deserves for uncovering this startling bit of video.

Everyone, PLEASE click the YouTube link and rate it 5 stars. We can get this on the front page of YouTube hence MORE PEOPLE will see & hear it. C'mon! Get clickin'!

[Oilwellian]

9. Malmo, have you posted this in General Discussion?

Not everyone comes to the video forum and I think this is big enough to be discussed in a much larger area.

[Malmo Blue]

10. Maybe.

I'm not too keen on tooting my own horn and putting it up all over DU - I'll think about it over the hour.

[Oilwellian]

11. I'll be happy to toot your horn for you

This is very well done Malmo and deserves to make the front page of YouTube, much less part of a major discussion here on DU. Bhutto's statement is stunning and deserves to be heard by the entire world.

[Malmo Blue]

13. Got the link up.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=2546847&mesg_id=2546847

[Oilwellian]

14. Yea! Thanks! n/t

[Joanne98]

12. Is that the David Frost interview? Six minutes into the interview she says

"Omar the man who murdered Osama Bin Laden"... Also. the first attack on her life.. they put explosives in a baby. somebody was handing her the baby and the street lights went out... She didn't take the baby because she was afraid she would drop it because she couldn't see..the baby/bomb went off..but she was not close enough to get killed.

Curious........

[jph wacheski]

15. lots have said this,. perhaps none as well placed as her to know.

so I suppose that Morgan Spurlock's (SuperSize Me) new doc. will prove this,. "Where in the World is OBL" I think he is calling it,. should be out soon,. however these recent events may get the jump on him.., as always the truth will eventually be realized.

Will be interesting to see when he was killed and when the CIA released the last "OBL" tape,. quite telling really,. seems Cheney went all Big Brother and just made up a bad guy to hoist up when needed. dead guys are easy to control! Is strange how if you research nearly any of the so called terrorist attacks you always find odd connections to intelligence agencies. American or otherwise., . Pirate Bankers strike again.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vgn1omiwaWQ ( Morgan Spurlock - not saying if he 'found' OBL,. oh the suspense.)

[katty]

17. yes, she is a reliable source for this info

[Pastiche423]

29. OBL died in December 2001

[Lint Head]

16. That means we are being hoodwinked by the powerful.

The bigoted power elite are controlling the serfs, or common people, by inventing the Bin Laden threat. That would be overseas and in this country. What could be the evil intention of such a deception? :dem:

[AntiFascist]

18. Also notable in the interview....

Bhutto wanted to go after the financiers of the terrorist groups mentioned, and she also mentioned

"Collusion to the right"

Was she taking on the New World Order?

[ramapo]

19. Truly amazing

Not a mention of this anywhere by anybody

Fact or fiction?

[ray of light]

20. What about Osama's 04 appearance the weekend before the election?

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RainDog]

63. the one republicans used to say dems were like osama?

'nuff said to me - I found that very hard to believe - seemed like classic rat-fucking, but at the same time, I didn't think OBL was dead. honestly, I thought it was so weird that he would choose the week before elections to give an "endorsement" to Kerry.

[pleah]

22. K&R I thought something was very fishy with the last video they put out of

OBL. Guy looked pretty good for someone who's dead.

[cynthia]

23. why will no one on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee

speak out on this? They should know!

[wildbilln864]

24. *K&R! n/t

[wisteria]

25. I don't know what to believe. Maybe she meant someone else and

whose name was similar to bin Laden.

[woundedkarma]

27. i would imagine this is what happened

and now that she's dead she can't be called on to confirm it or say she was mistaken.

[RainDog]

37. She was articulate throughout the interview

She also first noted OBL's son who might represent a danger to her. OBL was grooming his son to take his place -- now why would she be able to correctly name every other person but not OBL as the person killed by Omar Sheikh?

just a few things to keep in mind:

greg palast knew a coup attempt was coming in Venezuela in Jan. 02 - it ocurred in April 02. Palast found out via OPEC. U.S. media didn't really cover that much of the story.
Jessica Lynch's story was totally fabricated in order to create a favorable war story. This was known in the UK long before anyone in the U.S. knew it. MONTHS AND MONTHS before. Back then I regularly read the UK papers and things like Asia Times online to get information because the U.S. media was simply a propaganda arm.
The Bush administration, at its highest levels, outed a CIA agent because it was politically convenient for them to do so.
The Bush administration targeted journalists in Iraq and specifically bombed al Jazeera, even after they gave the U.S. their coordinates (you should watch Control Room if you haven't already) because the bushies wanted to control the flow of news.

It would have been terrible for them if people knew OBL was dead b/c then they couldn't have invaded Iraq so easily, or manipulated the american people during the 2002 midterms.

At first I thought that surely it wasn't possible, but now I think it is absolutely possible that Bush, etc. drag out a fake OBL tape when ever it's convenient. They did it before both elections after 9-11. They did it when Gonzalez was going down. The last few tapes from OBL haven't even had any credibility with U.S. intel services.

that guy Alan whazzizname, who runs for prez as a republican all the time also stated OBL was dead... something like, oh come on, let's admit that... I heard that one myself

here are some links-

Musharraf says bin Laden likely dead already since December 2001 from kidney failure
http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/01/18/gen.musharraf.binladen/

Karzai says bin Laden likely dead already
http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/central/10/06/karzai.binladen/

FOX "news" claims bin Laden already dead
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,41576,00.html

New York Times says bin Laden most likely dead
http://www.benadorassociates.com/pf.php?id=50

an FBI guy says bin Laden most likely dead
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2135473.stm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/07/17/attack/main515468.shtml

Mossad (Israeli intel.) says bin Laden most likely dead since December 2001 and any further tapes are fakes (reprint of a World Tribune article)
http://www.welfarestate.com/binladen/funeral/israel-intel.txt

[Little Star]

45. Do you happen to remember the name of OBL's son?

I saw the interview the other day and can't remember the son's name. I think that Frost interview was broadcast on Aljazerra originally. Great media we have in this country huh???

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

55. Bring me his head

A corpse on ice? Sure looks like it to me.

[will_in_chicago]

28. A need for inquiry

We may never know if Benazir Bhutto meant Osama bin Laden or someone else. However, when someone of Bhutto's prominence says something this important, it does call out for investigation.

Good work, Malmo!

Thom Hartmann also talked about this today.

[go west young man]

30. I hope you guys are joking because it would make absolutely

no sense whatsoever for her to mention a "different" Osama Bin Laden. Why the hell would she do that? Therefore I assume the joke's on me and you guys are pulling my leg.

[Infinite Hope]

26. Everyone email the video to the networks. n/t

[MindMatter]

31. That tape cannot possibly be legit.

How could David Frost hear such a statement and not follow up on that. That is absolutely inconceivable. Therefore that interview could not have come down this way.

Has anybody asked David Frost about this? With Bhutto dead, he is the next best witness to this extraordinary claim.

[MindMatter]

32. Probably a simple misstatement

In poking around some more, it seems pretty clear that she misspoke. The best guess is that she meant to say Daniel Pearl. That is a huge difference, but these things happen. It boggles the mind how David Frost could hear that and not step in to clarify.

[bjobotts]

33. The only way to not know is to not want to know. OBL is dead.

If someone screamed it in your ear you'd still say "well it just can't be true". "...I just don't spend that much time on him".(Bush) Now you know why.

[RainDog]

40. where is your evidence?

you "poked" around and found what?

I also poked around and found at least 5 reputable sources that claimed OBL was dead back in 2002 - I guess the NYTimes is reputable, as is the BBC. I think your posts are very odd. You offer nothing but "oh it can't be."

do you still not see that this administration is a fascist org? capable of lying about anything? capable of shredding the constitution when it's convenient to them? lying out their asses about nearly everything?

[MindMatter]

68. I found numerous quotes

from Bhutto just before and after the Frost interview that indicated she had no particular knowledge or opinion about OBL's status. She just had a brain fart in the Frost interview.

[MindMatter]

69. I found a set of contemporaneous quotes

with citations I take to be reliable. Unfortunately I cannot locate this reference at the moment. Perhaps somebody else will come across it and post links. But if those citations are accurate, it is abundantly clear that she had no particular knowledge or belief about Bin Laden's death. Indeed one of the quotes happened AFTER the Frost interview and she referred to bin Laden in the present tense.

It seems perfectly clear to me that it was a simple misstatement on her part in the course of going though a great many points in rapid succession.

None of that changes the fact that the American system is dominated by fascists. Personally I believe that bin Laden died a long time ago. I do not believe that "al qaeda" exists as a real organization in any strong sense of the word. It is more of a brand name that the terror mongers can use as short hand to keep whipping up the passions of their populations. As it turns out, this al qaeda franchising serves the interests of just about every government that holds power today, and it also serves the interests of the people who are fighting those governments.

It is important enough to the Bush administration that they have either arranged for a replacement Osama or at least have been quick to endorse the new and improved Osama if he was selected by somebody outside this administration. One thing is perfectly clear. The new Osama is not the same guy as the one that took the rap for 9/11.

[RainDog]

70. But you can't produce them...so you have no evidence or quotes

so what you say is still merely speculation on your part until you can produce these quotes.

[MindMatter]

71. Here you go

http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2007/10/02/bhutto_would_take_us_aid_against_bin_laden/

This is a few weeks before the Frost interview. I also saw similar statements from after the Frost interview. I'll try to find those again.

[MindMatter]

72. More citations

From this page: http://jazz-from-hell.blogspot.com/2007/12/bhutto-believed-bin-laden-was-dead.html


Here is what she said in June 2007..."If the Taliban are eliminated, or if their poster-boy Osama bin Laden is caught, the international cries for restoration of democracy will only deepen"
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/The_United_States/Mushs_toppling_not_a_nightmare_for_West_Bhutto/articleshow/2111497.cms

Said this in Oct 2007..."If there is overwhelming evidence, I would hope that I would be able to take Osama bin Laden myself without depending on the Americans,"
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=3676687

Said this the SAY AFTER THE FROST interview... I don't think General Musharraf personally knows where Osama bin Laden is, but I do feel that people around him are many who are associated with the earlier military dictatorship of the '80s.
http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0711/03/cnr.06.html

That last CNN transcript makes it absolutely, unequivocally clear that she misspoke. We make ourselves look like idiots when we froth at the mouth about these things without doing some basic research.

[RainDog]

73. thank you

good sources and so, yes, I think your pov makes sense...there's so much crap floating around about OBL, etc. that people need to source what they say, imo - also to know where the info came from... as in Ledeen, etc.

I think you make a valid argument.

[colorado_ufo]

53. Unless he already knew.

And didn't want to get caught in the crossfire that would have arisen from confronting her about this.

[RainDog]

39. the only way it makes sense is this:

Frost's show is on al Jazeera english and years ago Musharref and Karzai both claimed OBL was dead - this seems to be the conventional wisdom there. it would not surprise me at all if the Bush League had hidden that info from americans because it was politically expedient for them to do so.

the one reason I can think of for Frost not mentioning it is that Bhuto was setting up Omar Sheikh by claiming he killed OBL. others claim OBL died of health complications, but if she wanted to sow dissent between Sheikh's group and Al Q, that would be one way to do so. She was getting help from the U.S., so maybe that was something she did to sow dissension b/t terrorist orgs.

What's amazing to me is that anyone would consider the U.S. media as a reliable source for information about politics at all. they have consistently failed to tell real stories for months and months after others were reporting information.

[DWilliamsamh]

34. I live Mike....But Don't you think in TWO MONTHS

The world wide press would have been all over this story? I don't mean our lame brained media in this country. Nothing that slobbering band of chuckle heads and spokes models ignores amazes me anymore.

But....

Do you really think organizations like the Guardian for instance would not have been all over this? Even Al Jezeera would be all over this. I'm sorry, I just don't buy it. And I'm not saying she "misspoke." I don't know why she said it or what she "really meant," but start with what you KNOW. And what you know is that OBL is the most wanted, if not he's certainly one of the most famous, men in the world. His murder would not have been possible to bury. That is what we KNOW. This is bullshit.

[nytemare]

60. I agree.

She just got done speaking of Bin Laden's son, and I wonder if she would use the term "murder" when speaking of Bin Laden, whose son had her in the crosshairs. It seem she would more likely use "killed".

I also think if he was dead, she would have been talking a lot more about it in other interviews. Since returning from exile, she was interviewed quite frequently.

The interviewer seemed more concerned with the next question than her answers, so, unfortunately, he didn't follow up.

[GodHelpUsAll2]

61. Now that IS funny

Start with what you KNOW? And just what do you KNOW? And tell me, how do you KNOW it? Did you hear it on the news? Did you witness it firsthand?(Rather doubtful on that one)

The world press would have been all over this story. Ya think? Maybe the world press isn't interested in covering something they covered 5-6 years ago.

Tell me something, before 9/11/2001 did you even know OBL existed? If you are like most then the answer to that will be no. So tell me, how did he become the most wanted, or at least the most famous for you?

I bet I can guess.

[TeamJordan23]

35. She misspoke! She said "Omar Sheik...the man who murdered OBL." Omar Sheik murdered Daniel Pearl

I think she meant to say Daniel Pearl instead of Bin Laden. Omar Sheik was sentenced to death for Daniel Pearl's murder: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1804710.stm

[FlyingSquirrel]

36. Oh. I guess Omar Sheik only killed one person ever.

Not that I'm buying this hook, line and sinker. But the name Osama Bin Laden has a certain power to it. Don't you think she would have realized what she was saying and instantly corrected herself?

Still... perhaps the word "murdered" was the part she misspoke on. Perhaps she meant a different word. I dunno. It's definitely puzzling. And if the clip is real and undoctored (there was a pause, certainly, and no clear explanation for why she paused) then you would think it would be being played SOMEWHERE else. Perhaps on Al Jazeera?

[mac2]

49. Dots lead to the White House

back door. The sign...Bush World Gang, Inc.

[RainDog]

38. please see post 37, above

with several links saying the OBL is dead.

I certainly hope he is. that would be great news. and then we could start looking into who has been making tapes since then that parrot republican talking points.

[mac2]

47. Bin Laden tapes

are so bad and of inferior quality I can't believe anyone would take them seriously. The same people who attacked us on 911 made them.

[wildbilln864]

58. Exactly!

And the same people who are getting away with the anthrax murders! :banghead:

[mac2]

48. Daniel Pearl's murder?

How come this obsession with this journalists murder and not all the other ones since we Shocked & Awed Iraq? Fact is they have been shot by our own for reporting the truth. More dead journalists in this "war" than any other even the World Wars. All their deaths are important and not done by one man.

[whistle]

42. I heard her say that and Blitzer just let it slide by unchallenged

[colorado_ufo]

54. To follow-up with her on this point

would have been to confront the White House and all that comes with this, from a journalist's point of view.

[RainDog]

62. that was David Frost on Al Jazeera tv n/t

[fascisthunter]

44. Are There any Reports Else Where around the World of This?

If this is true, you all know what this means.

[mac2]

46. Murdered or dead

Bin Laden had kidney disease and was a very sick man. Murdered or dead is the reason Bush "isn't concerned about capturing him".

A Bush lie to us? You bet. Think of the number of enemies in the world and our own govenment (mostly Democratic areas and persons) who have been assisinated or in an accident since Bush stole power?

Arafat and Sharon gone...because they knew too much?

[jwirr]

50. Who is the man that murdered OBL? What are his connections? nt

[Joanne98]

51. Here's the wired.com article about the photoshopped bin Laden tapes

http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2007/08/researchers-ana.html

Neal Krawetz, a researcher and computer security consultant, gave an interesting presentation today at the BlackHat security conference in Las Vegas about analyzing digital photographs and video images for alterations and enhancements.

Using a program he wrote (and provided on the conference CD-ROM) Krawetz could print out the quantization tables in a JPEG file (that indicate how the image was compressed) and determine the last tool that created the image -- that is, the make and model of the camera if the image is original or the version of Photoshop that was used to alter and re-save the image.

Comparing that data to the metadata embedded in the image he could determine if the photo was original or had been re-saved or altered. Then, using error level analysis of an image he could determine what were the last parts of an image that were added or modified.

Error level analysis involves re-saving an image at a known error rate (90%, for example), then subtracting the re-saved image from the original image to see every pixel that changed and the degree to which it changed. The modified versions will indicate a different error level than the original image.

You can see the difference in the two pictures (below right) of a bookshelf. Krawetz added some books and a toy dinosaur to the original image -- both of which show up clearly in the second picture after he's completed the error level analysis.
But more interesting were the examples Krawetz gave of al Qaeda images. Krawetz took an image from a 2006 al Qaeda video of Ayman al-Zawahiri (above right), a senior member of the terrorist organization. The image shows al-Zawahiri sitting in front of a desk and banner with writing on it. But after conducting his error analysis Krawetz was able to determine that al-Zawahiri's image was superimposed in front of the background -- and was most likely videotaped in front of a black sheet.

Krawetz was also able to determine that the writing on the banner behind al-Zawahiri's head was added to the image afterward. In the second picture above showing the results of the error level analysis, the light clusters on the image indicate areas of the image that were added or changed. The subtitles and logos in the upper right and lower left corners (IntelCenter is an organization that monitors terrorist activity and As-Sahab is the video production branch of al Qaeda) were all added at the same time all have the same error level, while the banner writing was added at a different time has a different error level, likely around the same time that al-Zawahiri was added, Krawetz says. (See 2nd update below.)

Even more interesting is the analysis he conducted on another 2006 video image of Azzam al-Amriki showing him in a white room with a desk, computer and some books in the background. Error level analysis shows that the books in the lower right-hand corner of the image have a different error level than the items in the rest of the image, suggesting they were added later. In fact the books register the same error level as the subtitles and As-Sahab logo.

Further analysis also shows that the books have a different color range than the rest of the image, indicating that they came from an alternate source. Krawetz wasn't able to determine what the books were but says if they were religious books, they might have simply been added to lend authority and reverence to the video. It's also possible, he says, that such details could be added to a picture to send a message in code to al Qaeda operatives.
UPDATE: For those of you who asked for Krawetz's program, you can view the source code here.

You can also view his BlackHat presentation here (PDF). For those of you who think the software is better used to catch media manipulations of photos and video, Krawetz did present examples of these in his talk.

And to "Ann" who commented that she doubts al Qaeda would put subtitles on a video, As-Sahab, the logo in the lower left corner of the two al Qaeda videos is the production arm of al Qaeda. Yes, the organization has its own media production team.

2ND UPDATE: I quoted Krawetz as saying that the evidence indicates that the IntelCenter and As-Sahab logos were added to the al-Zawahiri video at the same time. Ben Venzke of IntelCenter says his organization didn't add the As-Sahab logo. He points out that just because the error levels are the same for two items in an image, that doesn't prove they were added at the same time, only that the compression was the same for both items when they were added.

3rd UPDATE: I was finally able to reach Neal Krawetz at the BlackHat conference to respond to the questions about the IntelCenter and As-Sahab logos (Krawetz doesn't have a cell phone on him so finding him at the conference took a while). He now says that the error levels on the IntelCenter and As-Sahab logos are different and that the IntelCenter logo was added after the As-Sahab logo. However, in a taped interview I conducted with him after his presentation, he said the logos were the same error levels and that this indicated they were added at the same time. Additionally, after I'd written the first blog entry about his presentation, I asked him to read it to make sure everything was correct. He did so while sitting next to me and said it was all correct. He apologizes now for the error and the confusion it caused.
http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2007/08/researchers-ana.html

On another note I'd like to add that this could be the reason the CIA interrogation tapes were destroyed. If prisoners were saying that OBL was dead.. Well that would mean Bush has been waging a war on terra for years against a dead man.

[Dangerously Amused]

57. K&R. Thanks.

What a dirty, dirty business you've been playing, Mr. Cheney (and resident Bush).

[Malmo Blue]

52. Need help!

I'm surprised by all the good word I've gotten recently over this video. The only thing that bothers me is that if one were to look at the video on YouTube, the "Related Videos" section links to videos from The Savage Nazi - aka Michael Hitler-Savage, talking about the Bhutto assasination. (read: calling for the extinction of the Pakistani people)

And I can't contact the staff at YouTube to have it removed from the section - need help!

[Oilwellian]

56. Malmo! You have two honors now on your video!

And over 4000 hits in just one day. Fantastic! Insofar as the related videos, there's not much you can do about it. There are over 2000 listed in that area. Hopefully Savage's video will sink to the bottom where it belongs. (If you notice, he's not getting many hits.) I wouldn't worry too much about it. Everyone knows he's a crazy sob and has very little credibility. Congrats on your video making the top 100!

[Malmo Blue]

65. Four honors, too!

#70 - Most Discussed (Today) - News & Politics
#68 - Most Viewed (Today) - News & Politics
#31 - Top Favorites (Today) - News & Politics
#43 - Top Rated (Today) - News & Politics

[Peace 2008]

59. well there goes the whole war on terror

[Dangerously Amused]

64. No! Look! OBL just spoke again!

Look!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071229/ap_on_re_mi_ea/bin_laden_tape


I really don't think that our good and honest government would dummy up another vid like this just to draw attention away from Bhutto's comment, and to conjure up more support for the war machine that is raping the treasury to line their pockets... do you?

[RainDog]

67. no video, only audio

and threats to Israel. no mention of Bhuto, but that could be explained if the tape was made prior to this week.

however, the authenticity of the tape has not been verified. (but of course it gets released anyway b/c it bolsters Bush.)

[RainDog]

66. replies to various posts on this thread

listen to the full Frost interview. Bhuto did not move immediately from Saad bin Laden to Osama, so this is no way to "explain" why she said OBL. Not only that, Saad is alive and very well, it seems. She mentioned two other possible groups but then said the focus should be on the financiers. At this point she mentioned Omar Sheikh as the killer of OBL. Now, why would OS kill OBL? I have my own speculations at the bottom of the post, but they're just speculations.

OBL's oldest son is Saad bin Laden. that is the son Bhuto mentioned in her interview with Frost. source: CBS News

OBL's second oldest son is Mohammed. He was married to OBL's second in command in sept. after 9-11 (source: The Guardian)

Fox News claimed OBL was dead in 2001. Karzai and Mush. claimed OBL was dead in Dec. 2002. in both cases they claimed that illness killed him. - either kidney disease, complications from TB, or TB. (see links via post #37.) None of these reports came out as "absolutely confirmed." they were presented as the opinions of M. and K.

In 2006, Saudi intel claimed he was dead. This was reported via French press in a minor newspaper and the people who believed this and talked about it were neocons such as Michael Ledeen at The Nat'l Review (I'm not linking, but just google Ledeen, bin laden dead.)

Ledeen used this report of OBL's death to promote the idea that he had lived in Iran - in other words, Iran sheltered him and this made Iran a legit target. I do not believe this source because it comes from Saudi intel and is promoted by neocons as a pretext for war, just like they lied about Saddam. Saudi intel is also intertwined with the Bushies. -not to say that he's not dead, but to say that this was all about implicating Iran in 9-11. in other words, it makes the most sense to regard this as total bullshit. Iran is Shi'a dominated and OBL and Omar Sheikh are Sunni, as are the Wahabbi in Saudi Arabia. toooo convenient.

but all these sources said the info came from Al Q. and that bin laden was buried in some obscure place. I would also not trust reports from Al Q. However, why would they say this? what benefit would they gain by saying this, other than to make people call off the hunt for him. well, Bush already called off the hunt for him. And intel has repeatedly said that OBL is only part of a larger group of men who are aligned with one another.

Sy Hersh reported in the New Yorker that U.S. troops had some portion of Al Q surrounded in the Tora Bora region in 2002. His statement was confirmed by Gary Berntsen (link to BooMan's discussion of Berntsens' book.

here are some interesting links from Cursor.org in Nov. 2001. (I think Cursor is one of the best news aggregators around.) They report various sources' articles. this one includes the bombing of Al Jazeera, but if you google Reporters without Borders you will find many links to the targeting of journalists by the U.S. during the invasion of Iraq.

Omar Sheikh, the person Bhuto said had killed OBL is british and attended the London School of Economics. He was credited with funding 9-11 and wiring money to Mohammed Atta via an Hindi mag, but again, you can google this and find many reputable mainstream sources, esp. in Britain. Profile of him here (Kashmiri herald, but there's also good ones in British news sources.

Omar heads a group called Jaish-e-Mohammed. They fought in Kashmir against India- that's their best known activities. Omar has used extortion to gain release of imp. members of this group.

here's the profile on them:
The outfit is closely linked, through the Binoria Madrassah in Karachi, with the former Taliban regime of Afghanistan and its protégé, Osama bin Laden and his Al-Qaeda. JeM chief, Masood Azhar was released by Indian authorities in Kandahar and has reportedly met Taliban and Al Qaeda leaders in Afghanistan on various occasions.
The JeM is also reported to have links with Sunni terrorist outfits operating in Pakistan such as the Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan (SSP)and Lashkar-e-Jhangvi (LeJ)

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my speculation is this- IF OBL is dead (I cannot say with certainty, although I tend to believe he is based upon his lack of reference to current events in his appearances after 2002 except to slam dems)

Omar Sheikh was also in the Tora Bora region during the stand down during which planeloads of Taliban fighters and ISI agents were allowed to escape to Pakistan. Maybe he sold out OBL in order to be able to get his organization and his ISI accomplices out. The only reason I've ever been able to come up with for the stand down previously is that Rummy (who would have been the one giving the stand down command) didn't want to catch OBL in order to justify the Iraq invasion.

however, if my speculation is true, the standdown makes sense - maybe more sense. this, of course, assumes that Bhuto was referring to that Omar Sheikh, not "the blind Sheikh" who is now in prison. he's also egyptian and Omar Sheikh, above, is of Pakistani descent, although he is a brit citizen.

Cooperative Research is a great site for mainstream references to various events and players in all this mess. do a search for names at their site. strangely, tho they have one of the most comprehensive list of mainstream sources, they don't seem to show up on a google search, or at least not in the first couple of pages.

[wildbilln864]

74. kicking to wake the sheople...n/t