How could ANYONE believe that there could be foul play in Ken Lay's death?

[joeunderdog]

After all, it's only a billion dollar con game. And as you can see by the list below, the friendly folks in the Energy Biz who had knowledge of Andersonian accounting practices sometimes had trouble staying alive. One might need to assume that there would have to have been a little cooperation from the police to mischaracterize the circumstances of their deaths, so believe what you will. But if you don't believe the "authorities'" official stories of these men, how could you put anything past them in their role in the death of Ken Lay?

Murder, suicide, faked death, heart attack. Show us proof.

Cliff Baxter
Found dead in his car, shot in the head. Mr. Baxter was vice chairman of Enron Corp. when he resigned in May 2001. Enron has been hot copy lately with the revelation that they were the largest campaign contributors for George W. Bush. Was J. Clifford Baxter a potential witness to Bush foreknowledge of their wrongdoings? His death was ruled a suicide.

http://www.georgewalkerbush.net/bushdeathlist.htm

The death of J. Cliff Baxter, the former vice chairman of Enron, looks a lot like that of former White House Deputy Counsel Vincent W. Foster, Jr. Foster's death was pronounced a suicide by the U.S. Park Police when they found a gun in his hand. The media accepted the word of the police, who had made no investigation worthy of the name.
snip
The claim that Foster killed himself came as a shock to his family, close friends and co-workers. Close friend Webster Hubbell told a partner at the Rose Law Firm not to believe the stories that Foster committed suicide. Mrs. Foster accepted the suicide finding, but Vincent Jr., the oldest son, told classmates that his father did not kill himself. The New York Times reported that a former business associate of Cliff Baxter's called him the day before his death, congratu-lating him for having criticized Enron's practices before resigning. Someone had suggested that Baxter hire a bodyguard, and Baxter told the caller, "I'm a businessman. Why do I need a bodyguard?" The Baxter family, according to close friends, all believe he was murdered.

http://www.aim.org/publications/weekly_column/2002/02/06.html

James Daniel Watkins
An autopsy report has confirmed that a man whose body was found in a van parked in the Pike National Forest (in Colorado) last week committed suicide. (Hmmm, Park Police again?)
Snowmobile riders discovered the body of James Daniel Watkins, 59, in a snow-packed parking area off Rampart Ridge Road in Douglas County on Dec. 1.
snip
Watkins had been missing since the afternoon of Nov. 13, 2001 when he left work at the downtown Denver accounting firm of Arthur Andersen.
snip
Officials initially said the death was suspicious and were awaiting the autopsy findings before ruling whether it was a homicide or a suicide.
http://www.apfn.org/enron/gunshot.htm

Jake Horton
Greg Palast writes) Jake Horton was the senior vice president of a company called Southern which since the sad demise of Enron is the number one power company in the United States-they are the guys who have us by the bulbs. Who are these guys? Jake Horton was the Vice President of that company and he found something unusual in the mid eighties-he found that the company was making political campaign contributions. He knows because he was delivering them in little brown paper bags-and in the good old days before the miracle of de-regulation-there was a guy- a disabled president called Franklin D Roosevelt-who was morally however abled. He gave us a law called the Public Utility Holding Company Act- which didn’t put a limit on campaign contributions by power companies-he said no soft money, FDR-he said no hard money-he said NO MONEY-because when a power company gives money to the government that regulates it-it has got to be a bribe, right? That went out the window, right?

But with de-regulation signed by George Bush senior in 1992 on his way out, right? But in the meantime before that Jake had delivered some cash and he was going to take the fall-so he said you know what else-he said make me take the fall and I have some news for you-there is a little bit of a problem with our accounting system-there is one set of books that we give to our regulators and there is another set of books locked in the trunk of the car of the Senior Vice President of the company. This is the biggest power corporation that is there in North America, right? And they pretended according to these books that the company had spent 61 million dollars repairing its power plants and its grid systems-but it didn’t.

It pocketed the money-Now Jake thought that the Attorney General ought to have this information-borrowed the company plane-10 minutes after the plane took off, April 1989-the plane exploded.Co-incidence? I don’t want to hear from the conspiracy nuts out there-actually the company did not believe it was an accident-the chairman of the board said to BBC television, where I work, that Jake saw no other way out-and anyway the company was about to be indicted by Grand Jury not for Jake’s demise but for the funny books under the US Racketeering Laws-except there is a funny provision in the country’s racketeering laws which says that the justice dept can pull an indictment-and in fact the Justice Dept under George Senior’s government pulled out the indictment on this company-because they said it may be an odd method of keeping your books in the trunk of the car of the company’s Vice President-but according to Bush’s guys it was approved by that upstanding auditing firm-Arthur Anderson
http://www.democracynow.org/print.pl?sid=03/08/22/1529206

And on a reach, if you want to throw in the plane crash/gun shot wound death of Clinton Commerce Secratary Ron Brown who was reportedly being investigated for, amongst other things, ties to the Energy Dept, then you could make a connection there, too. Brown had early ties to Enron. The circumstances of that plane crash are controversial.


I, for one, will believe anything--homicide, faked death, whatever--until these possibilities are ruled out. If the police do their job and investigate the death of this public figure, this convicted felon, then I'll accept it. They owe it to the family to rule out foul play and to the victims to prove that they've got positive ID of a man who has an enormous debt to pay to them and society.

Show me.

[Child_Of_Isis]

1. I don’t want to hear from the conspiracy nuts out there

Well, that leaves me out.

[NYC]

2. On the streets of New York today:

The New York Post, Thursday, July 6, 2006.

[Fridays Child]

6. And that's a Murdoch paper. Well, whatever sells his rags, I guess.

[RB TexLa]

34. Yep both the Post and the Daily News

It's fun really, to see them side by side each morning, who can put the most outlandish thing on to separate you from your change.

[MissWaverly]

3. I believe the timing is convenient, very convenient

[Bretttido]

57. Maybe it's just "an inconvenient truth"?

Sorry, had to say it

[MissWaverly]

63. ha, ha

very funny

[Cleita]

4. Your post sure makes Lay's death pretty fishy. n/t

[LynneSin]

5. I've considered that he's also done this to himself

Knowing that he was 64 years old, ready to spend the rest of his life in jail and probably going to have most of his assets seized what better way to get around the system them to commit suicide in a way that it looks like a heart attack.

As it's been posted several times (and mentioned in Salon) that he has not completed sentancing and therefore is not a criminal and thus it helps his family protect their assets. Plus he doesn't have to rot in jail as somebody's beyotch.

Sure, one says that it could have been a hit on Lay because he might testify. But for him to testify would mean that he would have to admit guilt and be willing to co-operate with the system WHICH means that most of his assets would be seized and the family would live in poverty.

[cornermouse]

9. Well, if he already has a bad enough heart condition,

possibly he might have just stopped taking his meds? Simple but effective?

[LynneSin]

18. Doctors said the heart attack was unexpected

and there was no heart condition

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

64. There is no way that would be reliable enough, in the time frame between

conviction and sentencing.

It's the fact that he was not yet SENTENCED, apparently, that is a technicality that, for now, allows his family to hang onto the ill gotten gains.

Interesting how Right Wing people HATE perps getting acquittals and such on technicalities, unless it's one of their own, or one of their heroes.

[texastoast]

12. You might be interested in this story.

http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/rommel.htm

[SharonRB]

20. My personal theory is also suicide

:hi:, Lynne!

Although, who knows, he could just have been a lucky guy and died at the right time.

[lonestarnot]

54. If his heart was as bad as has been reported, suicide by failure

to take medication would be same as any other suicide, only not as messy. Waiting for the toxicology report. Hope the autopsy doc checked for pin holes in his skin before they torch him.

[napi21]

7. I could understand if KenneyBoy would have been shot, missing,

suicided, or something like those, but for God sake, he had a massive heart attack! He was taken to the hospital, and there was an autopsy done. I really think it's wayyyyy out there to think there was foul play involving his death.

His Drs said he had one heart attack in the past and was medicated for high cholesterol. He was an older man who was used to living a lifestyle of luxury! Knowing he was facing prison time had to be devastating, and I'm sure that's what caused his heart attack!

I don't mean he shouldn't have done jail time! He deserved it! I just mean that he physically wasn't able to pay the price for his crimes.

[Last Stand]

14. We had the entire media, military personnel and docs on the Jessica Lynch

story all involved in a big ol' lie. Didn't you feel betrayed then? Didn't you want more proof from that point forward? Didn't you get more pissed about Tillman? Didn't you?

And just for good measure...
Just a Coincidence? Four of Jessica Lynch's Rescuers Have Died Mysteriously http://www.propagandamatrix.com/291003lynchrescuers.html




I want proof, not reassurance, on Lay's death. It's not a private matter.

[papau]

15. Autopsy report done moments after death - No way it could have been

done that fast and written up and released - meaning time of death is wrong or there is a con going on.

Toxicology report was not even back because it just got sent. I still have not seen or heard the results.

There are a 100 ways to give someone a massive heart attack - with many using methods whose finger print disappears in hours.

All the defenders of the official reports do not comment on the apparent "holes"

Why not?

The NT Post = "check for a body" suggestion is far out - but we are talking our extremely wealthy energy folks - and little is beyond them

None of this above proves anything - and only is my saying it smells to me - just another opinion.

I have heart problems/stents/etc - and the one good thing I take from this is that, if true, there is hope of not ending up a veggie for the last years of my life.

[SharonRB]

21. 64 is not considered "an old man"

That's actually pretty young these days.

[rman]

45. The CIA has been researching a drug that does cause a heart attack

and leaves no trace:

British documentary about the CIA, featuring several former CIA employees
http://youtube.com/watch?v=eKkYVVInRnc
http://youtube.com/profile?user=TheNewPatriot

[texastoast]

8. I spoke about it on the radio today

On our local CC "news" channel talk show.

Here's how the host introduced me (a brand-new listener and never-before caller):

"Everyone is so ANGRY about not getting to Ken Lay. But there are a surprising number of listeners who, in this day and age of CSI, (yes, he really said that)actually believe that Ken might not be dead.

"______, you are on the air. Why don't you believe Ken Lay is dead?"

He tried hard to get me to say that Bush is lying to us about Lay beind dead due to the "Kennyboy" connections. I didn't, but I did point out that our government--any administration--is able to concoct a set of "facts" for the peons on a need-to-know basis, and that I knew this from having worked on military contractor plaintiff cases. I just commented that I thought it was pretty unusual--though not unheard of--for a Methodist to cremate a family member so quickly. I also pointed out that it would bring closure for thousands of investors to be able to know (as much as we can know) that the cremated remains of the "deceased" are actually Lay's. After all, the Lay family will be benefitting from their ill-gotten gains while trusting investors suffer--old people, teachers, and hosts of other groups. Why not give us all a little closure so we know that Lay is not off somewhere being dead like so many WWII Nazis.

[robinlynne]

24. I haven't heard that he was cremated. Was he?

[texastoast]

29. As far as I know

That's what I heard this morning on our Clear Channel "news" station on the way to work. There was to be a funeral service in Aspen, and I just read that there will be a memorial service in Houston at the First United Methodist Church.

[joeunderdog]

41. Generally, any insurance company on the hook for big $ would be

demanding an investigation before a cremation. Homicide or suicide could complicate a payoff. They would have every interest in validating the circumstances of the alleged death. If they don't, the fix is in.

[Last Stand]

50. Is this consistent with his "religous" beliefs?

If cremation is inconsistent with his stated religon or family practice, I would have a real problem with believing there isn't some other motive. The police have every interest to be involved here. This is not "politics"--this guy is a criminal and his death should be considered suspicious by any measure.

[Bridget Burke]

51. Actually, there will be 2 "memorial services"....

A very private one in Aspen & another in Houston. His ashes will be interred in Aspen. (Just look for the yellow snow.)

Don't know about the timing of the cremation.

[eviltwin2525]

10. well, ya see....

Q: "How could ANYONE believe that there could be foul play in Ken Lay's death?"
A: Ken Lay was involved in it, wasn't he?

[snappyturtle]

11. I can't believe.......

that a man with Lay's money wouldn't know he had clogged arteries. Those of us with no medical insurance===YES! But Lay? I think Lay (put on the tin foil hats) was told by * that a pardon would be difficult for the presidente at this time and oh well, they paid off a medical examiner and the rest is history. Me thinks they should check out the casket.....DNA.....whatever! Am I nuts?

[screembloodymurder]

30. You're not nuts.

Let's see the report. Where's the body?

[KoKo]

32. No...you are not Nuts....Lay had access to same high level care as Cheney

and if he was on Cholesterol lowering meds (just reported, btw) he would be monitored by a cardiologist. He would have had access to the tests to determine if he had any blockages. Not saying something couldn't have been missed in his care...but also that Dick Cheney is a heart miracle having had four heart attacks since his 30's BEFORE there were statins to reduce cholesterol and sophisticated tests to determine how bad off one was.

Either Cheney is lying about his condition or Lay had terrible medical care.

Take your pick or both. I have relatives who have had bypasses so I kind of know what I'm talking about with the tests that Ken Lay certainly had available to him with his level of concern about his health (DU Poster DemTexas flew him around the world and said Lay was very concerned abouthis health way back).

:shrug: If he's already been cremated ...it sure looks kind of odd considering the questions over his "convenient demise."

[NoSheep]

59. I don't think you're nuts. I think exactly the same thing. I wanna see

the body and I want DNA evidence.

[Double T]

13. In THIS world anything is possible........

and usually probable, but also unbelievable!!!!

[neoblues]

16. So Now His "Estate" is No Longer in Jeapordy...

at least not owing to the criminal conviction... the government will have to go back and start over in attempting to take what remains via a standard "civil" suit.

Of course, there wasn't much left. Especially after the lawyers were done.

Interestingly, his family will enjoy millions of dollars, free and clear, from the Life Insurance policies. Their golden parachute I suppose.

Skilling will now be the primary target for recovery.

[FloridaPat]

17. How about he was going to spill the beans to the gov't to get

out of the verdict. You know - the things about Enron and India and Enron needing gas from the future pipeline in Afghanistan and his good buddy * promied to do everything he could to get that pipeline going and bail out Enron. Or how * let him steal from California with all those high gas prices. Or all the little dirty deeds * did over the years.

As for heart attacks - they're easy to make happen. Just the right drug at the right time.

[BrightKnight]

19. No pardon needed to keep him quiet now...

I hope that there is a thorough investigation to rule out any foul play.

[DireStrike]

22. This post goes in the 9/11 forum. Could someone please move it?

:sarcasm:

[ComerPerro]

23. BushCo wouldn't kill lay. They were probably set to pardon him in Dec.

He probably either actually had a heart attack (apparently even heartless people have heart attack), took his own life (doubtful since he was a coward and knew he wouldn't actually go to jail) or faked his death and fled the country.

[Mist]

27. I think Lay was too much of a heavy hitter to be offed--I think he got

the admin. to go along with his "death," and the admin. instructed the corpo-media on what to write. My off-the-cuff reasoning:
the corpo-media says Lay's dead, so he probably not. On the other hand, yeah, maybe it was a heart-attack.

[jasop]

56. Of course they would kill him.. they had more reason to kill him than not

[malaise]

25. You forgot Philip Merrill

and a few others -John Paisley and William Colby
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1579946

Sp.

[Kenergy]

26. American journalists are very honest

They would never lie to us.
















<sarcasm off>

[wakeme2008]

28. Watch the wife.....

If she leaves the country, he is ALIVE...

[jmowreader]

31. Kenneth Lay was Soylent Greened

No, he wasn't turned into little green biscuits to be fed to poor people. We don't do that yet.

Soylent Green was partly about a police investigation into the death of a Soylent Corporation executive who was murdered for "unreliability." Basically, he planned to take public the fact that Soylent Green, which was supposed to be made from plankton and sea greens, was being made from human corpses because plankton and sea greens had been fished to extinction. The Soylent Corporation sent someone to his apartment to beat his brains out with a crowbar.

Kenneth Lay was in the phase of his trial between conviction and sentencing--when prosecutors ask convicts if they have anything to exchange for lighter sentences. The only people who have the potential to have more dirt on George Bush than Kenneth Lay are all in Bush's administration--and Kenneth Lay wasn't going to die in prison. This man would sell his own mother for three-to-five.

Oh, he HAD to be whacked.

[Reckon]

46. HAD to be whacked, or disappeared by fake death.

Both work. If Lay is your good ol' buddy, which one does he get? Disappeared!

[SlavesandBulldozers]

33. too much of a coincidence. waaay too much.

not gonna claim to know what happened, but the timing is way too much of a coincidence.

[Recursion]

35. In fairness, improbability is not impossibility

Thomas Jefferson and John Adams both died on July 4th, 1826, exactly 50 years after they published the Declaration of Independence. Adams' last words were, "Thomas Jefferson still survives" (he was wrong; Jefferson had died about 4 hours earlier).

I only mention that to point out that weird coincidences like that do happen, so the appearance of one doesn't neccessarily mean a lie.

That said, since everything these guys have said so far was a lie, I think we should at least check for the body and have an independent DNA analysis.

[Zensea]

36. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar n/t

.

[Pastiche423]

37. And sometimes it ain't

[Last Stand]

38. And sometimes con artists just continue to con. the art of deception.

Three deaths of men with knowledge of Enron accounting practices, all by highly suspicious circumstances, and you want to put your chips on coincidence? Have I got a bridge for you.

[Vidar]

39. Nice collection of evidence.

[Nothing Without Hope]

40. EXACTLY. I posted earlier with similiar ideas but without your examples

and was ridiculed as a tinfoil hat loony:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1579533&mesg_id=1579533
thread title (july 6, 2006): Ken Lay's death: I don't swallow this story without question. Do you?

With all that has happened these last years, with a lying, corrupt government and a corporate press that suppresses the truth, how can we NOT ask questions?

In the thread I posted, I linked to a current NY Times article on how his death will make it very difficult to get restitution for his massive thefts. It also removes the embarrassment over the issue of a presidential pardon and shuts the mouth of a man who knew damaging things.

Maybe it all went down as we're told. Maybe it didn't. Maybe he was killed, maybe he's still alive and now living on billions in secret bank accounts. Whatever the truth may be, how can people NOT question the reported story about this very, very convenient death?

[dweller]

42. there were people, organizations that searched out the Nazis

in the past, and brought them to justice. It took years.


there are people who were wronged by this man, and are possibly unwilling to just forget about him. Sorry, perhaps a bad comparison, but just saying.

i don't believe we've heard the last of this story for a good many years.

dp

[EFerrari]

43. I'm with you. Show me. This cabal will do anything.

We, on the other hand, have the choice to take their cr@P! on trust or not.

[rman]

44. And then there's this judge who died of heart attack on the job

while reviewing the case against James Earl Ray, (officially) the killer of MLK:

...
"On March 31st the Judge, who had sentenced him and who had overseen the guilty plea hearings was reviewing the petition for a new trial, had told some people that he was concerned about certain aspects of the case (whether that is serious or not one doesn't know) and he was found in his office dead of a heart attack, with his head on James' motion papers. You can speculate what that means. It may mean nothing. It just may mean that man was under a lot of stress for a lot of different reasons, he had a heart attack and he happened to be reviewing those papers and when he collapsed and the head down it was on James' papers.

But there is a law in Tennessee that says if a judge dies and you make a motion for a new trial and in the course of that motion before ruling on it the judge dies, you get a new trial automatically. There were two people who had filed those motions before Judge Preston Battle. One was James Earl Ray and the other person was the one who got the trial. James didn't..."

From a transcript of a talk by William F. Pepper, attorney of James Earl Ray and of the King family, about his book "An Act of State -
The Execution of Martin Luther King"
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/WFP020403.html


An Act Of State - The Execution of MLK (video of the talk by William F. Pepper)
http://www.chomskytorrents.org/TorrentDetails.php?TorrentID=862
Dozens of witnesses contributed to a forceful, detailed case that accused the FBI, the CIA, the U.S. military, the Memphis police, and local and national organized crime leaders. After only an hour of deliberation, the jury found for the King family. The accusers, led by Pepper, cried vindication and fully expected to be at the center of one of the biggest news stories of the century. But the trial and the verdict barely registered in the media.


The King Center
Complete Transcript of the Martin Luther King, Jr. Assassination Conspiracy Trial
http://www.thekingcenter.org/news/trial.html

[autorank]

62. K&R Talk about sending a message....I'm sure people paid attention

"found in his office dead of a heart attack, with his head on James' motion papers."

Good lord.

[Eurobabe]

47. It's really Crashcart that croaked, and now for the face transplant

Look it worked for the woman in France?

[Pachamama]

48. 3 words - Open. Casket. Funeral.

Show me Ken Lay lying there in an open casket at his funeral and I'll believe he's dead...

But was this death then due to "natural" causes.... :eyes: Me thinks this whole thing was just way too convenient....

[Bridget Burke]

52. No "open casket"--no "funeral"....

There will be 2 memorial services, without a body. He will be/has been cremated.

[Pachamama]

53. Are you serious??? He's been/will be cremated????

That does it folks...call me tinfoil, but I will forever wonder if the guy isn't sitting on some estate on a secluded island nation somewhere with his new reconstructive surgery looks and laughing, all while his conviction is overturned, Bush probably gives him a post-humous pardon and his family gets to keep all the cash and the lawsuits all stopped with claims against his fortune.

[Bridget Burke]

55. Yup.

It is said that Lay wanted to be cremated & have his ashes buried in Colorado. There will be 2 Memorial Services--the usual terminology for commemorations without the body.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with cremation & have been to several Memorial Services. But, in this case, it does look odd.

www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/special/enron/4030008.html

[NoSheep]

60. I bet my life on it 10 minutes after I heard the lie.

[KurtNYC]

49. "Dick Cheney is healthy. He did not have a heart attack"

-GWB 11/22/2000

"She (Schiavo) certainly seems to respond to visual stimuli." His (Frist's) speech on the floor of the Senate: "I have looked at the video footage. Based on the footage provided to me, which was part of the facts of the case, she does respond." - Bill Frist (R)

And still some ask 'Would they lie about medical conditions?'

[leesa]

58. I PREFER to believe he just had a heart attack, but it's getting harder

to swallow with each bit of news that comes out...the 'lost' guilty verdict, the intact estate, the cremation. It's just all too wierd. He had a lot to say and could easily have called in some powerful favors.

[bobbieinok]

61. heard that according to TX law Lay is now considered 'never to have been

found guilty'.

So his death before sentencing and appeals means that in the history books he is listed as NOT GUILTY.

This whole thing is so suspicious. I wondered when I heard of his death but now learning in this thread that he was cremated and the question of the autopsy.

And yet a question regarding the quickness of the autopsy mentioned above:--if a person dies in a hospital under a doctor's care is an autopsy normally done?? I thought only if there's some reason to think that the cause of the hospital stay did NOT cause the death, which apparently was not the case here.

Also, was he in Aspen? Why--a vacation there or a meeting?? Remember Libby's note to Judith Miller about 'the Aspens'.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

65. It depends. If a patient dies in certain settings, like an operating room

then it is AUTOMATICALLY a coroner/medical examiner case. That doesn't mean the coroner will automatically DO an autopsy, but they have jurisdiction, and family, hospital, doctors do not have the ability to decline an autopsy if the coroner elects to do this.

Outside of the hospital I'm not sure how this is determined.

[Reckon]

66. What did Libby say about the Aspens'

I can't recall.

Thanks

[Red Right and BLUE]

67. Everything falls into place.

Way too convenient.