During Dean's campaign....the party showed its hand about civil unions.

[madfloridian]

This is a little something in his defense, something some don't realize happened. So in his defense, sort of on this.

Howard Dean has written op eds, made statements to the leaders of the gay community, he has gone to see some of the groups and met with them. He has done just about all he can do except give in on the word "marriage."

Since he fired someone there at the DNC because their partner was sending letters around telling people not to donate to the DNC, the attacks have been merciless.

He has more than received his share of grief for not actually supporting the term "gay marriage", yet he is one of the strongest supporters of their total inclusion into the Democratic community.

One of the biggest reasons he lost support was that Bill Clinton was working behind his back early in the campaign in 03. Here is what he was doing. I am excerpting it and leaving out a name or two to keep peace here.

On Page 113 of his book "You Have the Power, Dean says:

"It remains to be seen, too, just how much my support for the civil unions bill will hurt my chances to reshape Democratic politics. Some pretty important Democrats have shown they think it might. When former president Clinton was trying to drum up support (for another candidate), just prior to (that candidate's) entry into the presidential race a year ago, he called a friend in a large city and said "I need you to be for so and so." The friend demurred. (sentence left out)

The friend told Clinton he was Dean supporter. "Howard Dean", Clinton said "forfeited his right to run for president when he signed the civil unions bill. He can't win."

It was a rare mistake for the president. The supporter was gay and called us to tip us off.

Page 113 You Have the Power

For a man who is trying to fair to most everyone, trying to rebuild a party that has been in corporate hands for years....he is going to be the brunt of attacks. People don't want change. Clinton did not want change...and he played a big role in Dean's loss.

Time to be open. Dean can not win for losing on this issue.

[madfloridian]

1. The sad part is that he is the only one the bloggers are going after.

And he has tried to be fair.

[Old and In the Way]

2. Yep, it's all Clinton's fault.

I knew there was a reason Kerry ran the table in the 04 primaries. :eyes:

[madfloridian]

3. I figure then that Clinton doesn't support civil unions.

But no one is mad at anyone but Dean who has tried.

This place is so crazy.

[Old and In the Way]

5. Perhaps I misinterpreted the point of your OP.

I've read a bunch of threads since that seem to be making much out of nothing with regards to gay rights....interesting that this starts up as the latest wire tapping news is breaking. hmmmm.

[madfloridian]

6. Yes, did you see the attacks in the WP tonight?

They will continue. They are organized at other blogs and brought here. Dean has Clinton blasting him for civil unions during the campaign while Bill was pretending to be fine with it all.

He can not win for losing, and this is a crying shame....the attacks will continue. They are going on viciously at MyDD and Kos as well tonight and the last few days.

[madfloridian]

4. Kick just because no one cares.

These attacks are going to continue, and I hope he just steps down and turns it over to the right wing Dems completely.

I hope he goes back to DFA, and then runs again.

He won't, but this is just digusting.

[mnhtnbb]

7. I hope Dean starts a third party. I'm fed up with both Clintons,

Kerry and all the rest of the corporate ass-kissing Dems.

[last1standing]

8. Dean deserves to get his ass kicked around a bit tonight.

I love the guy and understand what he was trying to say, but he's made a statement that is not only not true, but wrong in the eyes of many of his core, myself included. I'm okay with the fact that he supports civil unions and not gay marriage, let someone else take up that battle. However, he has been neglecting the gay community lately and needs to work on his base as well as evangelicals.

The thing I admire most about Dean is his ability to make his message understood by just about anyone. He failed us in that today.

[madfloridian]

9. Why aren't you mad at Clinton and others as well. Why just Dean?

It is organized, that's why. Americablog is going to continue this against him. It is a shame.

I think he was right to go and talk to those folks today. I resent the way they are being called freaks here.

[last1standing]

10. I am mad at Clinton....and others.

I'm also rather angry with several people here tonight for making things worse. However, the point tonight is that Dean - not Clinton - went on a talk show hosted by people who have repeatedly accused gays and liberals of being responsible for every evil and problem this country has ever faced and made a comment that was completely out of line and incorrect. He should be called out for that.

Like I said before, I'm a big Dean supporter (you can search my previous posts to confirm that), but just as I have called out Clinton and Gore, and Kerry, and any other Democrat when they have made comments or have taken actions that I cannot support, I'm going to call Dean out for this. If Americablog is conspiring to unseat him, then they have gotten a big hand from Dean himself today. That saddens me.

[madfloridian]

11. It is his job to reach out to the other side.

I don't see anything wrong with that at all. He is a fair man. He is getting attacked tonight in post after post here. He is doing his job.

[last1standing]

13. There's a difference between reaching out and ceding our beliefs.

Dean made a mistake yesterday, a big one. He went on a talk show who's hosts have accused us of causing the World Trade Center attack. That's not Christian, that's hateful. It's also only one example of the host of comments they have made to create an atmosphere of intolerance and bigotry in this country. In going on that show, Dean gave credence to their wild, cruel, beliefs. To make matters worse, he made a statement that was not true, and that seemed to support their bigotry (I'm not saying it did support it, but it is easy to quote out of context).

I know you are a very big Dean supporter - so am I, but to gloss over a mistake of this proportion doesn't help him or us. It only serves to make others think we don't care about them or their beliefs.

On another note, I don't think you're a "fundie", and I don't think most others here think that either. There have been many things said in the heat of anger on both sides and I hope those who have said them are big enough to apologize later.

[kevinbgoode]

12. Look, Dean is not the President of the United States

and I've defended him before for his straight-talking, direct manner. That is, in my position as a member of the gay community, still no excuse for appearing on one of the most vile, vicious, disgusting "news" programs, whether he views it as reaching out to the "other side" or not. These are not people who just need to be drawn into the party for everything to be "nice"...they advocate elimination of all of my civil rights. And you think I should be pleased to discover that the head of my party is sitting on their news program, telling them the platform defines marriage?

This isn't merely some nice little social issue to discuss, in which no one life is damaged, oppressed, or harmed by the outcome. . .I've attended too many gay funerals, gay ceremonies and met too many gay partners kicked out of their homes when their partner died by "legal" family members to take this "issue" as just something easy. You seem to forget that my community is attacked on a DAILY basis....not occasionally, not every now and then, but EVERY DAY by many of the very people inhabiting the 700 Club. Tell me something - since abortion and denying gays any civil rights are at the top of their political agenda, just what are the Democrats prepared to offer these nutcases for their votes?

[madfloridian]

16. Ok. here's my point. Dean is being attacked here from 3 directions.

A DFA site was shut down by DHS. Rahm and Schumer are after him, and so is the gay community. The whole internet, including free republic is freaking out that Dean actually talked to some right wing Christians.

Bill Clinton said Dean has forfeited the right to be president by signing a civil unions bill. Why does that not upset you? Why just the fact that Dean talked to CBN?

I am having trouble with that. Clinton worked behind the scenes to keep him from being the candidate. Why does not that bother you as well.

It should show the rough road he has to walk as chairman.

I can see things from the point of view others can't, and it is the kind of thing that just might make a difference. He said he would talk to people we don't usually talk to, and explain ourselves to them.

[kevinbgoode]

17. I know nothing about the DFA site and I don't view this as some

conspiracy against Dean. Bill Clinton is not holding any office and has little influence over public policy and is not the major spokesperson for the Democratic Party. . .Howard Dean has that job.

I don't give a damn what Clinton did - we weren't happy with him either - he sold us out on the gays in the military policy, wimping out on his promise to get rid of the ban by introducing that "don't ask - don't tell" travesty that still entraps gay citizens trying to serve their country. There is no major love for Clinton, but we supported him just like we've supported Howard Dean. But we've also never forgotten what Clinton did in that case, and frankly, laws that are exclusively reserved for "married" straight people only affect even more of us on a daily basis.

I'm not interested at the moment about what Clinton may have done to Dean - I'm interested in what Dean was doing on the 700 Club. Is there some rational reason for him to appear on a crazy man's network with a shady reputation and a history of making abusive statements? You put Bill Clinton on CBN and I'd be just as angry. . .and what rough road is he walking as chairman? Alienating one community which has been very supportive of the Democratic party just to pander for a few votes from the crowd hanging on every word of Pat Robertson?

Well fine - he explained himself to the 700 Club. And in doing so, he managed to anger a huge constituency to the point where one national organization RETURNED a DNC donation. Doesn't THAT mean anything? Or should we just ignore it because gosh, Howard was so clever to reach out to the christo-fascist faith-healing send-me-all-your-money revival crowd who doesn't like us and smears Democrats all the time? I have put up with the outrageous rhetoric slamming my community for the last few years - daily - with some of the most vicious, vile remarks made about our very persons. It may not bother you that he reaches out to the 700 Club, of all things with no credibility - but MY community is directly affected by the legal organizations they help support, the rhetoric they broadcast on a daily basis and the vile attacks made on us over every single issue.

[madfloridian]

18. Well, then continue to follow his every word....

And then have 4 or 5 threads at once.

It is kind of sad. He was on your side, but there is a stubbornness in him when people are not fair. He won't go left, he will go right because the demands from the left are impossible to meet.

Sad. He's a good man who cares about the party.

[kevinbgoode]

19. And what exactly is "fair" about appearing on the 700 Club

and making that statement when he had to know it would anger supporters of the Party? After all, if Pat Robertson can slam the Democratic Party for YEARS and YEARS. . .and then slam GAYS for YEARS...why, that warrants some kind outreach by the DNC. . .

Meanwhile, the gay community which has helped support the Democratic Party has, at various times, been BLAMED for the 2004 election, brushed aside at strategic times in the constant daily battle for our own survival, and then Dean appears on the "news" program of one of our most hateful enemies. THEY deserve outreach because. . .? ? ?

And we deserve to be kicked under the bus because Dean thinks it is only "fair" to pander to the Right that attacks us daily - AND the Democratic Party. He might be able to talk a few of them into not attacking the Democratic Party - but he won't stop them from attacking US. And he won't get their votes unless the Party promises them something, and that likely includes something about US too.

But you are right - we don't deserve outreach and have no right to be upset about this at all.

[maddezmom]

20. what do you mean he'll go right?

:shrug:

[Solon]

21. If the demand for equal rights is impossible for the party to...

endorse, then the party isn't worth supporting, seems pretty simple to me.

[madfloridian]

22. Then do what you have to do, I guess.

That is all I can say. Reading this board today, I simply have no answers at all.

[rucky]

14. We need to hear an explanation from Dean.

I lost my secret decoder ring.

[libnnc]

15. This lesbian has rooted for Dean as chair....

But that doesn't mean he gets a pass for giving Pat Roberston the time of day. The CBN interview was a fuck-up. A big, fat, hairy fuck-up. One that deserves an explanation at the least.