Can I say it? Fuck Jobs.

[Naturyl]

Poverty should be a non-option for ALL American citizens - employed or not, willing to be employed or not, black, white, yellow, or red, willing to watch "Dog The Bounty Hunter" or not, and regardless of ANY other consideration.

Poverty, homelessness, and starvation should simply be non-options, period. Dignified survival should not be tied to employment - and frankly, if you disagree, I think you are are a regressive, a social Darwinist, and a throwback.

Flame away, slavery-lovers.

[LiberalLoner]

1. I agree with you...I think we should have a minimum guaranteed standard of living...

I think we should all have food, shelter, and medical care as a basic right. Although I do think most of us will have to work, to be able to accomplish those things as a nation. Still, I think no one should ever go hungry, no one should ever die of exposure or from lack of medical care.

[Mimo78]

13. food, shelter and medical care as basic right

I agree with you. Though the "American Dream" is about achieving wealth and success through one's own hand work one should never forget that some things are just due to luck.
Most people are not poor because they are dull or dump but because they are ill-fated.
In my opinion every human being has the right to lead a life in dignity and that includes food, shelter an health.

[jailthecrooks]

14. Add a top notch education and unfettered communications and you're right

Food and Shelter are absolute necessities of life. How can a society call itself anything but barbaric if it denies those to a growing number of millions. There are 1.5 million homeless children in America today: http://www.homelesschildrenamerica.org/ Without access to nutritious food and clean water, a child will not grow to his or her potential, mental or physical. That is a tragic waste: which of those 1.5 million kids would have grown up to be the next Einstein, Marconi, etc., had they not been impoverished?

Lack of proper medical care could be just as much a limitation to a child's developing their potential as lack of nutrition. We were all children once.

But I add education to the list because it is vital for our nation that we do not waste any of our potentially great minds. The problems we face are too pressing, too dire for us to throw away 30% of our potential geniuses and inventors as we do today with the current high school dropout rate.

We need to make a college degree a part of the education guarantee for every American child as well. Some students do not even reach their intellectual awakening till college. Then, of course, they take off like a rocket and achieve amazing things. The idea that 12th grade is a good stopping point any longer is dangerous for the survival of our nation. Doctors, engineers, mathematicians, scientists, etc., are vital to our ability to compete and to solve the many pressing problems we now have.

Lastly, communications should be a right as well. How can we have a functioning Democracy if only the well off can afford high speed internet and the other technologies that enable us to keep track of our elected officials and corporate owned media outlets. Each citizen should have a guaranteed access to high speed internet, wifi networks, 4G, etc., in order to stay in tune with the society and to stay informed on issues.

An efficient, green, and reliable power grid is also implied in all of these. Our way of life would be impossible without access to electricity to power our life saving devices and our learning tools.

Great post and keep us thinking!

[ThomCat]

2. Yes and no.

I agree that we desperately need a guaranteed standard of living. We need a real social safety net in this nation.

But "fuck jobs" isn't the answer. People need to be access to work. We just need to make sure that it's work that leads to a chance for advancement and fulfillment and careers. Not just endless, boring, dead-end work that doesn't pay shit.

I really miss being able to work. I liked my career. Being disabled sucks. :(

[xchrom]

3. indeed. nt

[Phil The Cat]

18. Dirty Jobs

Not every job can be fulfilling!

Trash NEEDS to be dumped! Food NEEDS to be harvested! Bathrooms, the sewers themselves, NEED to be cleaned!

The question is, HOW can these not so pleasant jobs be:

(A) Financially viable, and
(B) Kinder to those holding them?

In a world that, naysayers aside, DOES have a huge carrying capacity (if properly managed), NO ONE should live without the basics of life!

But things NEED to be done! And some mythical diety is NOT going to do it for us!

Synopsis: Respect the WORKING man and woman! Give them what they need, and quit dissing them by saying their occupations are useless or degrading!

[Sherman A1]

4. I agree and disagree

We should all have a dignified survival, but a job is more than just the income, it is also about pride in doing something (even if that work is pretty mindless), it is about social interaction at the job-site, it is about being responsible for completing a group of tasks, it's about so much more.

[Naturyl]

5. Pride is a deadly sin

I'm not Catholic, but I agree that it is.

There is no value in work that does not meaningfully advance the human race. And most doesn't - and that which does is generally unpaid.

[Sherman A1]

7. Really?

So if I go to work, complete my assigned tasks (at a grocery store btw) and enjoy some self satisfaction in having given my employer a fair day's work for a fair's day pay (it's a union contract upon which I voted) then I have violated the sin of Pride?

Gaining self respect by earning my income through my work for these last 37 years (which btw I happen to be pretty good at) is prideful?

Enjoying conversations with my co-workers and the social interaction of same does not add to my (and hopefully their) life's experience??

Helping a customer who comes into the store where I work find a product that they want or even get a empty box or two so they can pack their kids things to go to college does not benefit society in some small way?

Interesting outlook on your part one must say.

:shrug:

[jailthecrooks]

15. You drank the Capitalist kool-aid I see

Where does it say that pride for a job well done has to be connected to making obscene profits for some Capitalist a-hole who couldn't care less if you live or die? Pride in a job well done is its own reward. If your company were employee-owned would you get less pride? I'd wager that you'd get a heck of a lot more pride, along with a sense of ownership, security and feeling that you are a part of something bigger than just collecting a paycheck till you are no longer of service and get tossed out on your ass like the millions of kool-aid drinkers before you. Where do you think the elderly who have no choice but to eat cat food worked before they got too old or too ill?

What the OP is saying is that there should be a larger safety net for Americans, one that puts us all on a level playing field and ensures that any and all can bounce back from a temporary bump in the road such as we're having today. You read that to mean that nobody should ever have to work. Interesting outlook on your part one must say.

[NewMoonTherian]

19. I'm having trouble with the reasoning here.

A larger safety net includes all of the basic necessities of life; nutrition, shelter, clothing, medical care, etc. Such a safety net would, in fact, eliminate the perceived need for any person to work. Without work, a person would have no disposable income, but their needs would be met. Thus, of course, any kind of work becomes entirely optional. This idea assumes that a large enough cross section of people would continue to work anyway - for disposable income - that their income can be tapped to provide the basics for those who choose not to work. If that assumption proves false, it means a collapse beyond hope of recovery.

[ThomasQED]

21. "willing to be employed or not"

From the OP.

I read that to mean that the OP advocates everyone getting shelter, food, health care, etc., even if they choose not to do anything at all.

[Naturyl]

22. I certainly do.

[NewMoonTherian]

23. How can that be sustainable?

Wouldn't there have to be a system in place to force a certain portion of the population to continue working in order to provide for the rest?

[Boojatta]

29. It wouldn't be sustainable.

It's also not sustainable to have high military spending, an increasing debt, and tax cuts.

[joeglow3]

31. So, because others advocate unsustainable policies, you do too?

Not very good logic.

[NewMoonTherian]

20. Is there value in growing food?

Is there value in building and manufacturing the things that are necessary for the survival of the human race? Is there value in saving lives? Is it okay to take pride in that kind of work? I'm sorry, because I'm usually more levelheaded, but I've just been the target of a grave insult, and I feel I'd be remiss not to respond to that unvarnished elitism.

[Morrisons Ghost]

25. So is

Sloth. What's your point?

[Xenotime]

11. Pride leads to greed and that is what the rethugs thrive on.

Where the real problem is those who work two jobs taking money away from people who need it.

[stray cat]

6. What will you give of your own to help your GOP neighbor

Who pays for everyone if no one makes any thing or does anything

[qazplm]

8. if you can work, you should

unless you are raising a family or have a spouse or SO who is providing for your family.

If you can't work or can't find work but are seeking, then you should be supported by the government.

But the idea that you shouldn't live in "poverty" (which is a relative term so you will have to do a little better in defining exactly what the minimum standards are) even if you sit on your rear and aren't willing to be employed is not progressive or socially advanced, it's just silly.

Certainly homelessness and starvation should be non-options. But if a guy isn't willing to look for work, isn't willing to try, then he wants the benefits of society with none of the responsibility. Now I think such folks are limited in number, but I would provide job training and educational programs as a requirement for receiving aid. I would require actively seeking work as a requirement for unemployment, and I don't find either of those positions "regressive or Darwinist or a throwback."

[Naturyl]

10. And yet they are.

People's access to the necessities of life shouldn't depend on your *opinions* about whether or not they are "deserving."

To label anyone "undeserving" is very much socially-Darwinist and regressive. Sorry, but it just is.

To allow oneself to become so culturally indoctrinated and programmed as to be unable to see this is what is truly "silly."

[jailthecrooks]

16. Right wingers love to label people as undeserving

If you weren't born with a silver spoon in your mouth then there's something "wrong" with you and you deserve what you get out of life. If you weren't so lazy or such a drug addict you'd be rich already. :sarcasm:

What a load of social Darwinist crap. The Republicons always try to put the poor and middle class down, to create division among us, to keep us bickering amongst ourselves lest we all band together and take them down.

You people are behaving like fools and tools for the right wing psycho squad. People with no ability to think critically. Those who have no empathy for their fellow man. Those too stupid to know that "there but for the grace of God go I." Really nice. If that is honestly what is in your heart then you truly suck.

The OP states that there should be a certain level of social safety net that goes beyond just handing out food stamps. In addition to nutritious food, clean water and safe and adequate shelter, my comments above recommend adding the right to a top notch education through college and top notch communications infrastructure to the list. This will ensure that no person be "left behind" - in the true sense of the word.

[joeglow3]

27. How does it work if EVERYONE says "fuck it?"

Suppose the entire population says "fuck it. I am content with just the bare necessities and don't feel the need to work for it." So, where do the necessities come from?

Philosophically, I can understand how your view makes you feel enlightened and allows you to easily elevate yourself above everyone else. However, the simple fact is that it is NOT ground in reality.

While everyone here agrees we need a wider safety net, your view goes a step or 2 beyond reasonable possibility.

[JoeyT]

9. K&R

And an added "Hell yeah."

At this point we'd have to give people more than minimum wage pays, since it's almost impossible to live on it.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bobbolink]

17. FDR added recreation to the list in his Second Bill Of Rights.

[kdt]

24. agreed

Poverty is horrible especially in a country like this. But I do not see it ending soon.

[Silent3]

26. What counts as "dignified" survival?

I certainly agree with there being a strong social safety net so no one has to go hungry or homeless or worry about access to good medical care.

There's no way to ensure dignity, however. If someone is fully capable of working but chooses not to work simply because they don't feel like it, and they are happy to let everyone else who does work support them (yes, I know that doesn't describe most poor people) should that be considered "dignified"?

Even for those who would like to work but are disabled or otherwise can't find work, how can you ensure "dignity" if they themselves wish they could do better than whatever the best safety net provides, and they feel bad that they can't?

[butterfly77]

28. Kicked&Recommended...

[saras]

30. You can either do productive work, or you can have a job. But you can't do both.

[bobbymonterey]

32. Dog... lol I like that

I agree... I should be able to watch Dog the Bounty Hunter. I like Dog, he will give you a cigerette and even let you smoke it in his car.

[Blue Meany]

33. I agree. One of the reasons I have always supported welfare

programs is that it keeps people out of the job market, thereby putting upward pressure (or at least putting a damper on downward pressure) on wages. My view is that anyone who is willing to live on such a miniscule amount of money certainly ought to get it. If welfare actually kept people above the poverty line, it would probably result in an increase in wages, since businesses would have to raise wages to attract workers. I'm sure that's the real reason the GOP hates welfare.