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"Volition and inhibition: not "free will" but "free won't"

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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-03-11 05:33 AM
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"Volition and inhibition: not "free will" but "free won't"
http://www.elpais.com/articulo/sociedad/Volition/and/inhibition/not/free/will/but/free/won/t/elpepusoc/20110902elpepusoc_4/Tes

Surprisingly, experimental evidence seems to show that the subjective experience of free will is something of a perceptual illusion and that unconscious mental processes begin some time before we become aware of our intention to act. A milestone piece of research on which this claim is based is that of Benjamin Libet and colleagues, who were studying free will at the beginning of the 1980s. This group asked study participants to press a button as soon as they felt the urge to do so, and at the same time recorded their brain activity from scalp electrodes. It turned out that the subjects' conscious decision to press the button was preceded by the onset of brain electrical activity by a few hundred milliseconds.

This experiment has been replicated very recently using functional magnetic resonance imaging?a technique that allows visualisation of changes in brain activity as a patient performs a task. Tests showed that brain activity in the prefrontal and parietal cortex of the brain determined the outcome of a decision up to 10 seconds before the participant was aware of it.

Other studies have shown that the simple sight of a graspable object appears to activate, to some degree, the region of the brain that controls the body part involved in the potential action, even when the person isn't planning to move. Therefore, cues in our environment may inadvertently trigger potential actions.

If such processes were the source of our voluntary actions, then our nervous system would generate movements on the basis of external inputs and would not just rely on our will. According to this view, the subjective experience of consciously deciding to execute an action could simply be a "side effect" of the brain processes implementing the movement.
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eShirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-03-11 05:39 AM
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1. yep


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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-03-11 10:46 AM
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2. The conclusions are huge extrapolations from the experiments described.
The experiment descibed has a decision being made on the basis of no input (just an "urge") and no consequence of the action (at least none is described). I don't see any basis to extrapolate from this experiment to the conclusion (as in that the subjective experience of free will is something of a perceptual illusion) that when I am deciding how much of my paycheck to deposit in the bank tomorrow, my "decision" is really an illusion and my brain actually decides outside of my conscious awareness.

As to the "free won't", I agree that we have that on some occasions. But, for instance, when I decide to run across the street and as I begin to step into the street, I see a car out of the corner of my eye, I believe I stop as an unconscious reflex. IOW, sometimes my "won't" is not a free decision.

Do I believe there are unconscious aspects to our conscious decision making? Yes. But I don't believe that the descriptions supplied in the article begin to address the complexity.
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-03-11 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Truth is elusive to those who refuse to see it with both eyes wide.
It really is a stretch to conclude that free will may be a perceptual illusion from data showing that decisions are made as much as 10 seconds before we 'make a decision.'

:eyes:
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-03-11 12:13 PM
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4. So the urge to push the button occurred then 10 seconds later the button was pushed?
Edited on Sat Sep-03-11 12:19 PM by Jim__
Really? I would count any measurement from the urge to the button push of more than 1 second to be a mis-read of the decision point.
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-03-11 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. And in one comment, you demonstrate that you don't understand the studies you reject.
Thanks for playing.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-03-11 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. First of all, I didn't reject any studies.
Second, your "criticism" claims knowledge you haven't shown.
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-03-11 10:56 PM
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7. You've shown a lack of understanding while rejecting the conclusion drawn.
Both studies show that action can be reliably predicted from brain activity well before the someone has "made a free decision." This definitely suggests that "free will" may well be illusory. The methods are sound and your summary involves a large misunderstanding of them.

That you reject that conclusion as "huge extrapolations" further indicates a lack of understanding or desire for the conclusion to not be true.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Once again, your generic "criticism" does not address the specific issues that I raised. - n/t
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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Your specific issues are addressed by the studies.
Edited on Sun Sep-04-11 05:08 PM by laconicsax
If you read and understood the studies in question, you'd understand why.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Libet: free decisions are conscious decisions, and conscious decisions require subjective awareness
Edited on Sun Sep-04-11 06:35 PM by Jim__
I was basing my posts on my reading of the article and just thinking about what it was saying. So, since you were claiming that all my issues are resolved in the experiment and didn't provide any links, I looked for myself. It seems that Libet's understanding of consciousness and free will is closer to mine than the article implied. The online article about Libet and his experiments states that Libet's beliefs included the phrase in the title to the post.

But, further, experiments conducted in 2009, found that the reaction Libet was measuring was not indicative of a decision having been made (source):

One of the most frequently visited pages on Conscious Entities is this account of Benjamin Libet’s remarkable experiments, which seemed to show that decisions to move were really made half a second before we were aware of having decided. To some this seemed like a practical disproof of the freedom of the will – if the decision was already made before we were consciously aware of it, how could our conscious thoughts have determined what the decision was? Libet’s findings have remained controversial ever since they were published; they have been attacked from several different angles, but his results were confirmed and repeated by other researchers and seemed solid.

However, Libet’s conclusions rested on the use of Readiness Potentials (RPs). Earlier research had shown that the occurence of an RP in the brain reliably indicated that a movement was coming along just afterwards, and they were therefore seen as a neurological sign that the decision to move had been taken (Libet himself found that the movement could sometimes be suppressed after the RP had appeared, but this possibility, which he referred to as ‘free won’t ‘, seemed only to provide an interesting footnote). The new research, by Trevena and Miller at Otago, undermines the idea that RPs indicate a decision.

Two separate sets of similar experiments were carried out. They resembled Libet’s original ones in most respects, although computer screens and keyboards replaced Libet’s more primitive equipment, and the hand movement took the form of a key-press. A clock face similar to that in Libet’s experiments was shown, and they even provided a circling dot. In the earlier experiments this had provided an ingenious way of timing the subject’s awareness that a decision had been made – the subject would report the position of the dot at the moment of decision – but in Trevena and Miller’s research the clock and dot were provided only to make conditions resemble Libet’s as much as possible. Subjects were told to ignore them (which you might think rendered their inclusion pointless). This was because instead of allowing the subject to choose their own time for action, as in Libet’s original experiments, the subjects in the new research were prompted by a randomly-timed tone. This is obviously a significant change from the original experiment; the reason for doing it this way was that Trevena and Miller wanted to be able to measure occasions when the subject decided not to move as well as those when there was movement. Some of the subjects were told to strike a key whenever the tone sounded, while the rest were asked to do so only about half the time (it was left up to them to select which tones to respond to, though if they seemed to be falling well below a 50-50 split they got a reminder in the latter part of the experiment). Another significant difference from Libet’s tests is that left and right hands were used: in one set of experiments the subjects were told by a letter in the centre of the screen whether they should use the right or left hand on each occasion, in the other it was left up to them.

There were two interesting results. One was that the same kind of RP appeared whether the subject pressed a key or not. Trevena and Miller say this shows that the RP was not, after all, an indication of a decision to move, and was presumably instead associated with some more general kind of sustained attention or preparing for a decision. Second, they found that a different kind of RP, the Lateralised Readiness Potential or LRP, which provides an indication of readiness to move a particular hand, did provide an indication of a decision, appearing only where a movement followed; but the LRP did not appear until just after the tone. This suggests, in contradiction to Libet, that the early stages of action followed the conscious experience of deciding, rather than preceding it.


Of course people disagree with the results of this experiment too - discussed on the referenced page. The point being that these issues are far from resolved; and one type of decision making process is not necessarily representative of all types of decision making processes.
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Ready4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-04-11 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
8. I see little problem in this.
To some extent, I imagine that it is a survival mechanism for a creature to preemptively prepare for some actions, to reduce the time required for that action. See food item, prepare to grab food item, get permission to grab food item, go. If you only prepare to grab food item after getting permission (consciously choosing to grab it) then another creature who preemptively prepared to grab WHILE deciding will grab first.

This is probably the basis of what we call muscle memory. By repeating actions, we prime our reactions to preemptively prepare for certain events. It is how we find ourselves doing some things before we think of them.

What is interesting is the idea that this is going on with non-physical actions. Thoughts. It should be no surprise. Think of repetition in learning mathematics, or recalling trivia (like when watching 'Jeopardy.') What makes it interesting is that our consciousness may be resting on a sea of thoughts, and we are choosing which of those thoughts we prefer.

Perhaps that action of choosing is what makes us 'us.' Perhaps we are constantly self-assembling ourselves, by our selection of choices, and by doing so, building and fine tuning internal sets of priorities that reinforce who we 'think' we are?
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