The Straight Dope on Thimerosal

[Orrex]

Read Cecil's thoughts on the matter here.

The money quote:

evidence for a connection between thimerosal and neurological problems is unpersuasive.

I'm 100% certain that this will settle the controversy, once and for all.

[Bjornsdotter]

1. Funny thing

...25 years ago I worked as an Rx tech while in college. The pharmacist I worked with was brilliant. He gave me a list of things to avoid, almost everything that he listed has either been removed from the pharmacy/otc or has been under investigation.

Thimerosal was on his list.....

Cheers

[Orrex]

2. But did he say "Thimerosal will cause you to become autistic," perchance?

At issue isn't whether a swig of Thimerosal is good for you or not. At issue is whether or not Thimerosal's presence in vaccines leads to an increase in the incidence of autism.

To date, there is no empirical evidence that it does so.

[Bjornsdotter]

17. No

What he said was to avoid it if at all possible. He had serious concerns about it and I have taken his advice faithfully, it has served me well.

Cheers

[Warpy]

18. Oh, I think most of us realize that as soon as a replacement

became available, it should have been eliminated on the theory that adding anything to a lifetime mercury exposure was not a great idea.

However, NOTHING has ever been linked to it.

The vaccines that contained it, however, have saved many lives.

[Bjornsdotter]

19. The key phrase

<<What he said was to avoid it if at all possible>>


....and in some cases it is possible to avoid it, eye solutions for example. I never said to avoid vaccines; however for those who are sensitive to thimerosal they have their own issues.

Cheers

[Orrex]

20. That's true, but...

however for those who are sensitive to thimerosal they have their own issues.

The problem is that this hypothetical "sensitivity to Thimerosal" is too often assumed to be proof that Thimerosal causes autism.

Before that leap can be made, we need to demonstrate first that this "sensitivity to Thimerosal" exists and second what its impact(s) might be. Only then can we address its possible causative link to autism, if indeed it exists.

At present we're dealing with a supposition based on a supposition, and that's hardly a solid basis for mandating health policy.

[philb]

28. Vaccines are documented to have been a common cause of autism and ADHD, &

doctors who successfully treat thousands of such use metals detox as the cornerstone of their treatment. They are
called DAN doctors. There is no other treatment regime as consistently successful. The largest and most prestiegious autism research institute and group of parents of autistic kids confirms that mercury/vaccines are a major factor in autism (ARI).

from a DAN doctor clinic:
www.flcv.com/autismc.html

documentation from researchers on the mechanisms by which vaccines cause autism:
www.flcv.com/kidshg.html

Documentation that millions of kids are affected by toxic metals
www.flcv.com/tmlbn.html

hundreds of peer-reviewed medical studies and clinical experience documentations cited

[TZ]

3. K+R n/t

:kick:

[cureautismnow]

4. Straight Dope, indeed.

"Tom Verstraeten of the Centers for Disease Control."

Make that - Thomas Verstraeten, MD, MSc, - vaccine researcher for GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals.

Can you say conflict of interest, Cecil?

[Orrex]

5. Well, is Verstraeten's information correct or not?

You can't just shout "conflict of interest" and leave it at that. You need to demonstrate that the assertion being made has been tainted by that conflict of interest.

RFK Jr. wants to sell books and to do so he needs to generate publicity. Is that a conflict of interest? Does it invalidate his arguments?

[cureautismnow]

8. Cecil withheld pertinent information.

That's NOT providing the straight dope.

Bobby doesn't need to sell books. He sees a wrong and is trying to right it - just like his father.

[Orrex]

9. Read my other reply, please

Admittedly, I should have included that link in my first reply, but oh well.

Anyway, I'm not sure that the information is really "pertinent." Verstraeten's LTTE spells it out pretty clearly IMO.

Anyway, Bobby sees a wrong and so he's attacking the most popular target. He's not advancing the research nor improving our understanding; he's simply jumping on the bandwagon and adding his weight to the mob (and seriously damaging his credibility among non-true-believers along the way).

[Orrex]

6. Also worth reading

Read Verstraeten's response to your intimation here.

[cureautismnow]

10. What do you expect him to say?

Admit to a conflict of interest in a LTTE? :eyes:

He does say more studies are needed. His last conclusion was "neutral." So, that's 1 positive and 1 neutral for Dr. V. How does that help your side?

BTW, he also writes, "Whereas the original plan was to conduct the second phase as a case-control study, we soon realized this would be too time consuming."

Children's lives are at stake and he thinks it would consume too much time to really get to the bottom of it. What kind of a half-assed operation was he running?

[Orrex]

11. That's some fine reasoning by inference

Here's the bottom line:

Whether or not you want to throw out Verstraeten's input, let's see the evidence in support of your contention. The burden is on you (that is, on the people who believe in a causative link) to demonstrate it.

[cureautismnow]

12. It was demonstrated in his first trial.

That's what positive means.

[cureautismnow]

13. Congressional Record

"A report prepared by staff of the Subcommittee on Human Rights and Wellness, Committee on Government Reform, United States House of Representatives was published in Congressional Record of May 21, 2003, detailing the results of its own investigation. It concluded:

"...However, the Committee, upon a thorough review of the scientific literature and internal documents from government and industry, did find evidence that thimerosal did pose a risk.

Thimerosal used as a preservative in vaccines in likely related to the autism epidemic. This epidemic in all probability may have been prevented or curtailed had the FDA not been asleep at the switch regarding the lack of safety data regarding injected thimerosal and the sharp rise of infant exposure to this known neurotoxin. Our public health agencies’ failure to act is indicative of institutional malfeasance for self-protection and misplaced protectionism of the pharmaceutical industry."

-The Congressional Record, May 21, 2003, Page E1030

[Orrex]

14. Give me the link

I'd like to read the woo-woo site that linked that particular passage of the Congressional Record, because I'm confident that you didn't search the whole Record just for my benefit.

Also, as I browse page E1030 of the Congressional Record from May 21, 2003, I don't see anything at all about Thimerosal at first glance, though I admit that I'm not greatly familiar with the search interface of this site. Help me out, please--I'd like to read the original citation, and it's 100% possible that I'm just missing the relevant passage.

However, as I see it page E1033 does feature some unrelated comments by our good friend Randy "Duke" Cunningham, FWIW.

[cureautismnow]

15. It begins on the bottom of e1011 for 5/21/2003

You are searching in the right place. The title is "Mercury in Medicine Report." Burton introduces it. The conclusion cited is e1030. Adobe Acrobat Reader will display the results.

The date is ironic to me. It's my autistic son's b-day.

[Orrex]

16. Geez Louise! It starts on page E1011!

That'll take me more time to read than I have available at the moment. I'll see what I can do...

[Liberal Veteran]

7. You aren't going to convince some people no matter what.

If vaccines contained nothing more than purified mountain spring water and fresh air from the Canadian rockies or distilled angel's breath and liquid kitten purrs, they'd still stick to their assertions that vaccines are dangerous and cause more harm than good.

[FlaGranny]

21. My questions are as follows.

Where is this thimerosal produced? Where are the components of any given vaccine produced? Is it possible that some of it is contaminated with something that can cause problems? It's not like things like this don't happen. Is it possible that during vaccine testing "pure" vaccines have been used, yet the actual vaccine supply has contaminants?

I have been afraid to even take a daily multivitamin since I found out where they are manufactured. Maybe it's not vaccines at all, maybe it's baby vitamins causing autism. Geez. I know, I sound paranoid, but with recent revelations, maybe not so much. I wouldn't trust toilet paper made in China to not make me sick.

[TZ]

22. I've been in labs that produce vaccines

Thimerosol is usually not even IN the labs anymore and if it is its made up totally separate. Vaccines are often made in fermentors in what are called "clean rooms". That kind of cross contamination is highly unlikely. Manufacturing facilities have some of the strictest controls in the world. Most who work in them often shower in and out and sometimes have to wear tyvek suits (bunny suits) to protect the vaccines from THEM. GMP regulations (Good Manufacturing Practices) make it difficult to have significantly "different" vaccines from the clinical trials. With GMP EVERYTHING is documented. Minor variatons can happen from lot to lot, but USUALLY thats not a big difference.

[lizerdbits]

23. I've worked in a clean room but it was for media production

First put sterile gloves on. Put one sterile bootie on, step that foot over the line on the floor that nothing non sterile crosses, then do the same for the other foot. You have to put a sterilized suit on (ours were autoclavable but you can probably get disposable) and it CAN'T touch the floor or you have to get a new one. Our suits also had face covers over masks (I'm guessing the N-95 masks but I don't remember) so the only thing showing was your eyes. The fist 3-4 times you suit up they stick agar plates on various body parts to make sure you have no bacterial contamination on your suit and if you're 'clean' you are deemed 'qualified' to enter without assistance. Also the entire area is HEPA filtered and negative pressurized so when you open the doors to go in air rushes out and no outside air gets in. The procedure is so drilled into your head that I still remember almost every step even though that was my first college job in 1993.

I've never worked in large scale vaccine production for humans so I don't know if the procedure is similar. I imagine they might have air locks to further reduce the chance of any outside air getting into the area.

[lizerdbits]

24. An error

I realized while going to work that I said negative pressure so no air flows into the room which is backward (the editing period has expired for the post). That's what happens when I post in the morning, lol.

[CGowen]

25. there are also reports on improving behavior

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZArebYZzdc

[Duppers]

26. Cecil's been wrong on so many things - here is a most respected

DU member's post on this subject from March 30, 07:

>>
Studies show that mercury can accumulate in primate brains
and other animals after being injected with vaccines. Mercury poisoning is linked to autism, seizures, cardiovascular disease, dyslexia, mental retardation, hyperactivity, and many other nervous system conditions.

The DoD classifies mercury as "hazardous material" that can cause death if swallowed, inhaled or absorbed through the skin.

It's hard to understand why there are such strident, unreasonable arguments about mercury in vaccines as mercury toxicity has never been in question. If you read the medical / scientific literature you discover that it's one of the most studied substances on earth. The most pressing question is precisely how much mercury-laced thimerosal is toxic to children--but the answer to this question has been distorted in thousands of ways. It's astonishing that so little thought is given to the fact that children have underdeveloped detox systems -- or that mercury is even toxic to adults. Why are people astonished when they discovered consequences of multiple shots injecting mercury into our kids -- even though in low doses? Very few doctors even considered the possible effects of cumulative doses.

The United States has been extremely lax about mercury in vaccines. They were banned in other countries all over the world --but not in the US. Thirty years ago a Russian study (the Russians do excellent scientific work) that discovered ethylmercury exposure in adults in the form of the mercury in thimerosal -- showed brain damage even years after exposure. Studies showed nervous system injury, including obtundation -- and tubular necrosis. Coma and death were also noted in that study. That was THIRTY YEARS AGO!!! Russia only took three years to ban thimerosal from children's vaccines --that was in 1980. Soon afterward, ALL of the Scandinavian countries banned thimerosal -- not long afterward Austria, Japan and Great Britain joined the ban.

The chem/pharm industry has repeatedly contaminated the discussion and science on this issue in the U.S. If you look back into the record you see that Eli Lilly supposedly "answered" the mercury safety questions in 1930 -- not surprisingly it found that thimerosal to be of "a very low order of toxicity" for humans. The company hired then paid doctors to perform thimerosal experiments on meningitis patients at Indianapolis City Hospital during in 1929 when there was a significant outbreak. Eli Lilly continued to cite this flawed old "study" in its company brochures until 1990. One person who filed a lawsuit against Eli Lilly -- Andrew Waters, found during the discovery process that most of the important studies on thimerosal toxicity were aggressively suppressed by Eli Lilly.

Eli Lilly used it's considerable power and influence here in the U.S. (Bush senior was on its board-of-directors) to promote its version of thimerosal "science". It wasn't until immunizations per kid reached between quantity 12 and 15 -- that the general public started to worry out loud about the potential dangers. Although mercury is toxic to everyone there began to be an emphasis on "more vulnerable children" with inadequate detox systems. A 1999 study came along to reveal that some infants lack the ability to eliminate mercury --so parents began to think that this was the only thing they really had to worry about -- children with defects ("not my kid" thinking). Then some parents began to notice that vaccines like those for Hepatitis-B -- contained as up to 12.5 micrograms of mercury per dose -- more than 100 times EPA's upper limit standard for infants!

It was 1999 when FDA released this info.

One of the things that saddens me a great deal is how industry has managed to vilify groups of parents who have begun to search the medical/scientific literature and employ the skills of researchers, doctors and scientists to help them make sense of the science that exists in thousands of papers on mercury. Many of these groups and individuals have done an outstanding job getting closer to the truth that has eluded industry influenced U.S. regulatory agencies and the CDC.

The reality now is that Autism hits 500,000 to 1.5 million U.S. citizens. Since the late 80s it has grown at an annual rate of 10 to 17%! Not all states keep track but California reported a 273% increase from 1987--1998. Maryland reported a 513% increase from 1993---1998!

Centers for Disease Control cannot be trusted with thimerosal data. In 2000 industry and federal official reps were assembled by CDC to discuss disturbing thimerosal damage evidence. Epidemiologist Tom Verstraeten analyzed the CDC data and said that thimerosal appeared to be responsible for a dramatic increase in neurological disorders including but not limited to autism. Verstraeten those present at that CDC meeting that earlier studies indicate problems such as attention-deficit disorder,speech delays, autism, and hyperactivity.

Verstraeten did not offer causes for this correlation but insisted that there was very strong statistical evidence linking neurological disorders to vaccines. Two others -- Dr. William Weil, a hired consultant from American Academy of Pediatrics, and immunologist / pediatrician Richard Johnston,MD from the University of Colorado, expressed similar data. But CDC chose to take the almost impossible to achieve "scientific certainty" path of least resistance -- for the reason that it's nearly impossible to ever establish a causal relationship-- with 100% certainty. With this "scientific certainty" stance, NOT the stance of the precautionary principle which is based on the weight of evidence of harm -- the CDC and industry representatives took the position that the evidence was "not credible".

CDC then paid Institute of Medicine (IOM) to perform a study on thimerosal -- and this is the one that was cited by Robert F. Kennedy Jr., as being in advance with a preconceived goal of whitewashing all previous negative findings. In IOM's 2001 report the Immunization Safety Review Committee admitted that the link between thimerosal and neurodevelopmental disorders was "biologically plausible" but took the position that the evidence "neither proved nor negated it". Then to cover its ass it stated that phasing out thimerosal was “a prudent measure in support of the public health goal to reduce mercury exposure of infants and children as much as possible.”

The trouble with this was that it was not a clear mandate. It would do little to quickly stop thimerosal from continuing as an added preservative. Add to that the fact that the 2000 meeting data was withheld from publication! This kept the perception alive that the link between thimerosal and autism remained "inconclusive."

The result is typical of US sponsored toxicity "investigations" -- the public remained in guinea pig mode while other countries had already banned it years ago.

The politics of vaccines and toxicants are disturbing. One barely needs an advanced science degree to know that something stinks. Just examine the meaning of the word "inconclusive" in industry, science and regulatory circles. The meaning is different dependent on who you ask. Ask the FDA and industry and they will tell you that "inconclusive findings" NEGATE THE RISK OF A CAUSAL RELATIONSHIP!!! NEGATE!!!! This means that any interpretation of a risk of a causal relationship between thimerosal and autism is NEGATED! Scientists and researchers working for industry or FDA say the same thing, but independent scientists usually say something like "more research is needed."

They know that scientific certainty, or absolute certainty -- is an almost impossible.

What a good thing for toxic industries!

Corruption of scientists studying or commenting toxic products is also a huge problem. Take for example the guy who testified at that CDC meeting -- Tom Verstraeten --who presented epidemiological evidence. He campaigned against thimerosal based upon his correlation, after being hired by GlaxoSmithKline he immediately changed his public views to "neutral" on the topic.

Without an FDA mandate to stop adding thimerosal -- Merck took its own good time reducing vaccine levels. When the FDA came out with limp data in 1999 the public perked up and began to speak out. Then Merck began decreasing the amount in its vaccines and announced that its new vaccines were "thimerosal-free". Unfortunately, Merck continued its distribution of thimerosal laden vaccines until 2001. It took 2002 congressional action before Merck stopped distributing their inventory. Congressman Dave Weldon said Merck's actions were highly misleading. Unfortunately, there was very little press to alert parents -- who had thought vaccines were now mercury-free.

Government oversight in the U.S. has failed us regarding protecting our health from corporations more interested in profit that guarding our health. The same companies that create iatragenic drugs and products -- also PROFITS when we become ill. Anyone with chronic illness is viewed as a profit center by this industry.
>>


If you want links, google 'em yourself. I trust this person implicitly!



My son had a petit mal seizure in the pediatrician's within one minute after an injection of a vaccine. He was diagnosed with ADD eight yrs later. There MAY have been a cause and effect relationship; I am not sure but am only reporting the truth of what's happened to him.

-d

[TZ]

27. Here's whats totally wrong with this argument..

the people who claim its thimerosol vaccines say it was the MMR vaccine mostly which did the damage- WHICH NEVER EVER EVER used Thimerosol.
And citing an anonymous DU source does not give your claims validity. I am know many non-FDA scientists and none of them believe that thimerosol (which btw is gone from vaccines except for some flu vaccines) has anything to do with it.
Finally that whole thought about Merck...they didn't even have a vaccine development department until about a year ago. Almost all the vaccines used in this country have been made oversees. Merck until the HPV vaccine was basically contracting out the manufacturing of their vaccines and I happen to know the company who does a lot of that work (an british company) and they are INCREDIBLY thorough in their production. So this paranoid rant about the FDA and Merck covering something up..Never happened.

BTW studies now show that autism is a genetically based disorder. And vaccines, whatever you believe do not stay in the system long enough to bring something out years down the road. A vaccine works in the first few weeks after injection. And then the body rids itself of it through the spleen. Thats why the scientific community is so doubtful (real scientists not celebrities named "Kennedy" or one scientist who keeps changing his story) of any link. Its like saying because you took an aspirin one morning it must be responsible for the brain tumor that developed 5 years later