When should a young person be permitted to choose what to study?

[Boojatta]

Poll question: When should a young person be permitted to choose what to study?

The status quo for political policy seems to be the use of chronological age as a proxy for maturity. So I have created a poll in that format. However, I'm hoping that this thread will spark a discussion of policy that goes beyond the status quo.

For those who are interested in such a discussion, I should point out that, by "choose", I don't mean choose within some range of choices predetermined by the young person's parents or relatives or neighbors. For example, a banker's daughter might wish to study to be a plumber. Various people might object based on such issues as social class and gender expectations. These objections are irrelevant if the young person is to have the opportunity to choose within the full range of actual possibilities.

There are two separate financial issues: the cost of basic support (such as food and shelter) and the cost of specific educational choices (such as tuition, books, and transportation). Of course, as soon as a young person is legally permitted to leave parental custody, there is a theoretical opportunity to choose what to study. However, there could be financial constraints resulting from the specific studies that the young person already pursued, perhaps mainly or entirely as a result of choices made by the parents.

If maturity is a consideration, then there are two kinds of maturity that could be considered. We could try to consider the maturity of a young person's top three choices (for example) or we could try to consider the maturity of the young person. Either way, there's the problem of measuring maturity.

[tazkcmo]

1. When the young person is paying for it. n/t

[Boojatta]

5. Do you think it's wise for people to go into debt before they

are able to earn money in a sustainable way?

[Boojatta]

16. What about choices that are available in public school?

Students attending public school from K to grade 12 typically don't pay for their education. Does that mean that they shouldn't get to make any subject area choices in public school?

[k8conant]

2. Other = always

This doesn't have anything to do with so-called maturity.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. It has to be individualized

My nephew announced to his parents when he was 5 that he wanted to play the piano. They gave him lessons-and he turned professional at age 7. He supplements his income playing music in churches to this day.

[liberal N proud]

4. Yeah,

Different ages for different people.
Some are genius and can make up their mind very young while others may take until they are in high school before they decide what they truly want to be when they grow up.

[Boojatta]

7. How should it be determined what is the appropriate age

for a particular person?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. desire and ability

It does no good to force a child to take music lessons on an instrument they detest--I know this from personal experience! I think if a child wants to persue a course of study, and asks about it, then they should be encouraged to try. If, after a time of trying, it is obvious there is no talent, the child will most likely lose interest, and it can be suggested he try something else.

[Boojatta]

6. Do you think there's any law that entitles any 5 year old to

piano lessons? Should there be?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

8. I started piano lessons at 5 because I wanted to.

My grandmother's piano was at our house, and I started messing with it. My parents had NO musical talent. That's the only reason I found out I had any talent.
I took 12 years of lessons, until I graduated from high school.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

9. of course not

but the question was when a student should be able to decide what they wanted to study. I said it would depend upon the person. What a person wants to study, and whether or not it is funded, either by the state via scholarships or via student loans, are factors each individual must take into consideration.

[Boojatta]

11. What should the law be?

If a person is to have a meaningful legal right, then there needs to be a way for the person to enforce that right.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

13. It may depend upon the individual's actions

I'm thinking of the 12 year olds who are smart enough to go to college. They prove they have this right by their actions--their studies and their test results. Wasn't it test results, etc, that allow a young genius to go to university years earlier than the norm and then to go on to get advanced degrees? I had to prove my intelligence by tests and GPA to get a university scholarship.

[Coyote_Bandit]

12. Ummmm

Any young person with access to a library has the ability to study many, many subjects. It is a myth that formal education is required to master any subject.

As far as careers go it is also a myth that higher education is necessary for career success. Such success depends upon work ethic, skills, a network of acquaintances and ***sometimes*** credentials.

It is also a myth that white collar workers always fare better than blue collar workers in financial terms. A skilled blue collar tradesman can easily earn more than many entry or mid level white collar workers - and he can maintain his independence while doing so.

You imply that some career choices demonstrate more maturity than others. Sorry. All honest work is honorable - including nontraditional work.

IMHO, every young person should undergo thorough career testing looking at their interests, aptitudes, resources and personality - which is then examined in light of long term work place demands for various skills. This gives the young person the tools and information to make decisions that will impact the rest of their life. It is their decision and it should be respected as such.

[Boojatta]

14. ?

You imply that some career choices demonstrate more maturity than others. Sorry.

Are you suggesting that I implied that there are two particular careers A and B such that all young people who choose A are making a less mature choice than all young people who choose B?

Edited for clarity.

[Coyote_Bandit]

17. From the OP

"If maturity is a consideration, then there are two kinds of maturity that could be considered. We could try to consider the maturity of a young person's top three choices (for example) or we could try to consider the maturity of the young person. Either way, there's the problem of measuring maturity."


"...the maturity of a young person's top three choices" ***OR*** "the maturity of the young person". Sure implies to me that those three choices are being assessed as to their level of maturity - whatever that means. Sounds like career A or field of study A just might be thought to require less maturity than career B or field of study B.

[Boojatta]

22. I didn't say that they are assessed in isolation from any other information.

For example, what efforts has the person made in a relevant direction, what progress has the person made, and what are the person's expectations? If someone who is physically unfit and relies entirely on science fiction stories for information about space travel expects to "easily surpass John Glenn", then there is a problem.

Sure implies to me that those three choices are being assessed as to their level of maturity - whatever that means.

[Boojatta]

15. I didn't say that formal education is required.

I'm asking what should be the rights of young people who wish to pursue formal education of their choice. Informal education could be discussed, but it would be a more difficult topic and, of course, there are "many, many" blue collar occupations that a young person cannot learn simply by using a library.

It is also a myth that white collar workers always fare better than blue collar workers in financial terms.

A young person's parents, relatives, etc. might wish to veto a particular career choice based on concerns about social class. You might try to argue with them by citing wages and benefits associated with some blue collar occupations, but you wouldn't necessarily persuade them that they shouldn't veto a particular choice.

[Coyote_Bandit]

18. The rights of young people who wish to pursue formal education?

Simple. If they are paying for it then it is their choice. Nobody else has any obligation to pay for higher education if the young person is a legal adult (i.e., age 18 and older). If somebody choses to do so then it is at their discretion. A parent has no obligation to underwrite the educational and career choices of their adult children.

Formal education does not confer job skills. That is true of both blue and white collar work. That's why plumbers and electricians apprentice and nurses, doctors, teachers and social workers do supervised practicums. Formal education confers credentials. Practical experience confers skills. And skills are very different from book knowledge. This is true in all fields of endeavor.

Parents have no right to veto the career choice of an adult child. And any adult child who would allow them to do so is either spineless or lacks the necessary commitment to make the sacrifices required to pursue that career.

[Boojatta]

23. Is it really true in all fields of endeavor?

Formal education does not confer job skills. That is true of both blue and white collar work. That's why plumbers and electricians apprentice and nurses, doctors, teachers and social workers do supervised practicums. Formal education confers credentials. Practical experience confers skills. And skills are very different from book knowledge. This is true in all fields of endeavor.

Do students not learn to type when they take typing classes?

When people study Spanish as part of their formal education, do they not learn to speak Spanish, read Spanish, write Spanish, or understand spoken Spanish? Do they instead simply study abstract linguistic theories about Spanish?

[Coyote_Bandit]

25. My sister in law

graduated with honors from a major university and has a degree in Spanish. She cannot speak it well enough to translate for the local hispanic population. Also, the "academic" written Spanish differs from the language that is commonly spoken.

As for typing. So what? Typing is not a job. At least not anymore. Being able to type might be necessary to perform some job duties but that alone will not enable someone to perform well in their broad range of job responsibilities.

[Boojatta]

24. "Nobody else" excludes a lot of people.

Simple. If they are paying for it then it is their choice. Nobody else has any obligation to pay for higher education if the young person is a legal adult (i.e., age 18 and older).

When a divorce occurs, does the poorer spouse become legally a child regardless of age?

[Coyote_Bandit]

26. Being poor

does not make somebody a child. Duh.

Property division and alimony are determined by many factors: fault (yes that is still relevant in some states), contributions and sacrifices for the marriage, family or career of the other spouse, contractual agreement, community property laws, tax considerations, child custody, a spouses actions during the marriage that created debts and obligations. It is not simply a matter of rich ex-A supports poor ex-B. There are many considerations involved. Alimony is a form of compensation and is measured as such. When it is awarded courts do not typically specify the manner in which the funds must be used.

If a kid wants to go to college and they pay for it then how they choose to invest their time, effort and money is their choice. The kid is not entitled to higher education provided through the generosity of anyone else. Nobody else has any obligation to pay for that kid to go to college if he/she is a legal adult (i.e., age 18 and older). Kid can put himself through college. With a little effort he can avail himself of AP testing and can test out of many of the general education classes. He can also attend school part time while working.

This thread seems to point out two problems in our society: (1) we overestimate the value of higher education in terms of its potential contributions to career and earnings potential, and (2) some folks have a sense that they are entitled to and ought to be provided with things (higher education in this case) that they can provide for themselves through a bit of effort and self sacrifice.

[Boojatta]

29. "Formal education does not confer job skills."

Isn't that a bit of a problem? What's the point in designing a system that encourages everyone to study hard from K to grade 12 inclusive if the system produces the following two results?

Result number one: inevitably, for the vast majority, the marks earned are not good enough to earn a scholarship.

Result number two: those years of schooling provided at taxpayer expense will not permit the graduates to do any kind of work other than unskilled work.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

19. Former college professor chiming in

On the K-12 level, I am a great believer in required subjects. The reason is that a student may have a preconceived notion that he or she "hates" or is "no good" at a subject, merely because that's the family's culture. "My parents were never any good at math." "No one in my family can carry a tune." Even (I'm not making this up), "I've always dreaded the day when I would have to study a foreign language."

But many times, students actually try these subjects and find out that they like them and are good at them. If they had not been forced to take them, they would never have found this out. Besides, I am also believe that a good citizen needs to know history, geography, science, and literature in order to make intelligent political choices.

On the college level, however, I saw too many parents who were trying to force their child into a straitjacket. College is different from K-12, in that you spend an awful lot of time on your major, instead of just one course per year.

Over the years, I ran into students whose parents told them that they would pay only for a business, accounting, or finance major. The students were not interested in business, they hated their classes, didn't want to go into a business career, and in some cases, had strong talents in other areas, such as art or languages.

I even had students who were highly intelligent and good language students whose parents wouldn't let them study abroad. "If you graduate in 1989 instead of 1988, you'll lose a whole year's lifetime income!" One such student, a finance major, really wanted to go study in Japan, but her parents pulled that argument on her. As a consolation prize, they sent her on a two-week luxury hotel and escorted tour junket to Tokyo, Hong Kong, and Singapore. To my mind, it looked as if they were afraid that having her actually live in a foreign country on the local economy would distract her from the family's single-minded pursuit of money.

The career office at the last college I taught at reported that a significant number of business and accounting graduates came back after three to five years, miserable in their jobs, and wondering what the alternatives were.

As one who rebelled against her own parents' attempts to impose career choices, I agree with the recently deceased playwright Wendy Wasserstein, who came from a long line of lawyers and stockbrokers. When she told her parents that she wanted to go to Yale Drama School and study playwriting, they were horrified. But she struck a deal with them: She would give herself five years to write plays, and if she failed, she would go to law school. She said that she didn't want to end up as forty-year-old miserable lawyer wondering if she could have been a playwright.

[Boojatta]

27. "On the K-12 level, I am a great believer in required subjects."

Are you saying that you are a great believer in a system that does not allow any student to make any choices about what to study or are you simply saying that you want students to be required to do at least some study of all or almost all subjects?

Suppose that some schools that offer courses at the K-12 level give students an opportunity to make some choices of what to study. In practice, how can students take advantage of that opportunity if their parents wish to prevent them from taking advantage of it?

For example, suppose some parents wish to veto the study of some particular subject. If they threaten their children, what should their children do? Should they assume that it's a bluff and ignore the threat? A parent could simultaneously deny to outsiders that any study is forbidden and also punish a child for studying a subject that the parent doesn't want the child to study.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

28. There should be electives, of course, but students at the K-12 level

should be required to at least try some of each subject.

It's like what my parents did when introducing new foods. We were not permitted to reject a food on the basis of what it looked like. We had to take one bite, and then if we still didn't like it, we were allowed to avoid it.

I find it hard to imagine any K-12 subject area that parents would object to, unless they objected to specific content, such as books to be read for English class. However, I can't imagine them objecting to the actual idea of an English class.

[ulysses]

20. since when is a child *not* permitted to choose what to study?

I'm not sure why it's a question of policy. Yes, schools have mandated curricula, but learning is not relegated to the classroom.

[LWolf]

21. Other:

I believe that students should get a full 4 years of math, science, language arts, social studies, Physical Education, and a foreign language in high school. Hopefully the language study would have started in middle school, if not before. From there, students should be able to choose art, music, and other electives. If you're doing the math, though, you'll see that electives would have to be "extra" periods added on to the day, rather than part of the regular class schedule.

Once a student has earned a high school diploma, further studies should be entirely their choice, as long as they've met academic entrance requirements.

I also believe that we should have universal preschool - college or vocational ed training, so that every hs graduate can finish their education without bankrupting their family or incurring debt.