Atheists are so intolerant!!!!!

[InaneAnanity]

How dare they voice their opinions, when their opinions are so insulting to Jesus Christ Our Lord and Savior???!!!????

So what if they think God is a fairy tale. The least they can do is shut up and keep it to themselves. I don't want to hear it!!!!

[Deja Q]

1. It's inevitable that one person saying something will offend another.

So we either have to live with the Constitution, that says we all have a voice, or nix the Constitution and do as we are told.

[Champion Jack]

2. Yeah!

Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke!

[Gregorian]

3. I think it works both ways.

I could substitute Christian for Athiest.

My point is, it isn't who's saying it, but how it's said.

It's a very personal subject, and as such must be carefully communicated.


By the way, I could easily read your post as either humorous or as intolerant. I find that interesting. :)

[Dorian Gray]

20. I agree, Gregorian...

I don't care about what you have to say. It's how you say it. If I think it's rude, then I'll call it rude. I would never say that an atheist is stupid for not believing in God, so I expect the same courtesy. I might say that I don't believe that there is no God. It all comes down to the semantics.

And no... I don't want anybody to shut up. I'm also not demanding that everyone be polite. If you aren't, however, then I reserve the right to snap back at you.

That's what it all comes down to.

[eleny]

4. The bible a fairy tale? How dare he!

A great moment on Hardball just now.

[lvx35]

5. Damn, you guys have real straw man shortage...

...You are having such a hard time finding people to argue with that now you are pretending to be "Christians" telling atheists to shut up? This could be good. Now all we need is a forum for atheists sarcastically acting like Christians and other atheists to argue it out for entertainment.

[InaneAnanity]

6. How dare you!!!

How dare you say I'm 'pretending' to be Christian!!! Say that to the crucifix around my neck!!! Or to the communion wafer in my throat!!!!

[lvx35]

9. hee hee. Sorry, Mr/Ms Christian.

enough fun for one day in R&T for me. Good luck with your battle against the atheists! :)

[rug]

10. Tell me.

How does "crucifix" and "communion wafer" augment your argument?

Unless I'm missing something, all I see is gratuitous, unfunny, mockery. I know precisely the board where I can find that.

But, tell me: how does this mockery establish any point here?

[InaneAnanity]

12. tsk tsk

If you believed in God, you'd know the point.

[rug]

33. hohum

inane response

[cain_7777]

25. Don't choke on that communion wafer

they're dry without a swig of wine, sorry, blood of christ.

[Inland]

15. It's the essential R/T OP....strawmen and flamebait in its purest form.

Doesn't even pretend to anything more.

Some militants are so lacking in ideas that all they can do is argue over whether they are allowed to argue and that people don't let them argue with another person that doesn't exist.

[arwalden]

18. Yet Somehow You Managed To Rise To The Occasion, Eh?

:shrug:

[Random_Australian]

56. I'm going to have to take exception to that.

You are letting down the OP, and the atheists, and the theists.
The OP for posting something that was not, IMO, constructive criticism.
The atheists for the broad brush "you guys" - which I happen to find rather insulting, and also is something for which you provide insufficient evidence or logical argument.
The theists because you had the opportunity here to work with the atheists, though since as we are not a group, merely some atheists, and overcome this divide that is quickly becoming established.

Of course, if you believe your post was not one or more of these things, feel free to say why, but as it is it does not appear to attempt to discuss R/T, I should like it if you addressd that too.

If I have insufficiently clarified any of my points, just say so and I shall elucidate wherever my perception allows me.

[Meshuga]

7. It's okay to voice your opinion

and it is important that your lack of belief is respected.

You not believing and saying that you don't believe is not insulting to them.

But to make fun of what other people believe, hurting and belittling them seems stupid and it is a waste of energy!

[InaneAnanity]

8. Kudos

I like that you said "lack of belief". Honestly, I really appreciate that. You have no idea how difficult it is to get that through some people's skulls.

Perception is the key. What might seem like "making fun" to a believer is probably not meant that way the vast majority of the time. Unfortunately many people are uber-sensitive about this stuff. Talking about things online, without tone or facial expressions, also contributes to misunderstandings.

[nemo137]

13. A good deal of it is connotative, not denotative, meaning.

The denotative meaning of Santa Claus is a fat man in a red suit who brings gifts. The connotative meaning is something that is so ridiculous that only someone with the mental capacity of a 4 year old would believe.

So you may be working on the denotative level, but that word has power on the connotative level; there's a common acceptance that Santa Claus does not exist, and that an adult who believes in Santa is mentally deficient or pitiable.

It's the little things. And they get coupled with the occasional out and out attack on believers ("religion is just another addiction," or my favorite, which I've only seen once, "religious people have no capacity for rational thought, and are not to be trusted.") so that the denotative meaning, which you may have intended, gets lost.

It's late, and this may have made less sense than I'd hoped.

[Inland]

16. That made serious sense. Ergo, don't expect a response.

This isn't a "sense making" type of thread. It's a fishing for applause from the tribe sort of thread, destined for the greatest page to replace the most recent thread wondering why things are so divisive.

[Goblinmonger]

22. Of course it has connotative meaning.

You don't think we know that when we pick it? You aren't giving me enough credit. :P

The thing is that the comparison is valid TO ME. That is how I see it. I don't really see "god" as being significantly different than ol' red britches. Sure--god has a bigger volume of literature behind him (maybe?) and a greater number of people believe in him. But when you look at the point of the mythology, they are the same (at least the Christian god). They know what you are thinking, they know if you've been bad or god, they "punish" you for being bad, etc.

I know it rubs some people the wrong way, but it is a very valid analogy in my mind.

[nemo137]

30. You, I'd never deny credit.

I was trying to avoid pulling a whiney Christian and claiming that we're being picked on, again. :shrug:

The things is, aside from the fact that I see the Santa Claus analogy as good to a point, but showing a very limited definition/understanding (?) of god, is that in addition to that punish/give gifts similarity, there's also the implication that someone who believes in god is equivalent to someone who believes in Santa. That, of course, is where it gets insulting. When the Santa Claus analogy gets tossed out there, the question gets raised as to whether you really think that theists are the mental and moral equivalent of a 4 year old. And that's what rubs people the wrong way.

[riderinthestorm]

11. K & R!!!

Lol!! I really, really, really wish and hope this post gets to the greatest page. Help me out folks! This post needs to fly.

[Proud_Democratt]

36. It needs to FLY to the recycle bin. What's the motive here?

This is not a story. It's a sarcastic piece of crap that reassures/supports the myths, hearsays and other negative stereotypes of Atheism.

[Dogmudgeon]

14. Well, we ARE quite thin-skinned.

Sorry, but I'm not a whackjob atheist.

I'm an atheist.

And I'm a whackjob.

Seldom at the same time, though.

:evilgrin:

--p!

[Random_Australian]

17. Bad form. We ARE still trying to get everyone to reason properly, we ARE

still a group, and this post is rather divisive. Please click 'alert' and ask the mods to remove.

Thankyou.

[Random_Australian]

26. Allow me to re-iterate: Thumping bad form.

Stop bieng needlessly offensive!

[Random_Australian]

27. HELLO ALL- PERHAPS THIS MIGHT FIX A FEW THINGS

I hope it will anyway.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=69094&mesg_id=69943

[cosmik debris]

19. Is this sarcasm?

Surely you are not serious?

[InaneAnanity]

28. Did Jesus teach sarcasm?? eom

[cosmik debris]

52. I don't know what jesus taught

And you didn't answer my question. So I will assume that you are being sarcastic because I can't imagine that you would be so rude and arrogant to tell the people here what they can and can't post.

[Random_Australian]

40. The OP is bieng offensive, it's in the way he uses ? and !

You'll pick up on net ettiquette soon enough.

This guy has not learnt the 'we are all one community' bit yet, but probably will soon enough.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

21. I thought a long time last night

about the rancorous threads of yesterday and the day before and I have reached a conclusion. I won't participate in them anymore. I'm not going away, and I'll still post on RT but you know the ones I mean. I love the give and take, and I enjoy argument but it has gotten so ugly that I am not comfortable with being part of that level of division.

I am not certain why, but there is deep, deep anger happening here. Anger that intrudes upon and distracts from our mutual goals. Atheists say they are misunderstood, they are persecuted, they can't be themselves in real life, they are not respected, they are even fearful. People of faith are hurt that they are assumed to be childish and fools and that they can't make "the opposition" understand that words and metaphors do matter. They seek inclusion and reassurance that it is understood that they want nothing to do with a theocracy. And that's just on the surface. What is really boiling around down underneath it all? What are the REAL fears and the source of the REAL rage? I can't claim to know. Are atheists angry that they don't/can't believe? Do they wish they did/could? I have no idea, having never walked in their shoes. Do they feel somehow locked out of the clubhouse? Are the people of faith somehow looking for approval from the no-belief folks? A nod in their direction? A pat on the hand saying "it's okay if we're different"? Are they on some level afraid that their faith, what they consider their greatest gift, will be taken from them? Who knows? But the bandwidth given over to things like the myriad definitions of atheism that are impossible to keep straight without a scorecard, the demands on both sides that each treat the other with kid gloves (and then trashing them with every metaphor they can muster) has gotten old. As old as philosophy. It is the song that has no end and it reminds me of my day job teaching small children. There is no solution.

This OP is immature, divisive and not worthy of this board. I suppose the poster was trying to get another 400 post thread going or applause from his/her homies. It isn't worthy of the atheists/agnostics who are our thinkers, our logicians, the folks we need to go to when reason is required. It is not worthy of the people of faith, who are our dreamers and intuitive seekers, who we need to go to when times are difficult and the heart is heavy. I have made friends in both categories and am not willing to give them up. Yin and Yang. Up and Down. The continnum of humanity. I celebrate them all.

[kwassa]

23. great post, TG.

[arwalden]

62. "Do they think we are threatening them in some way, ..."

"Do they think we are threatening them in some way, that we want to take their rights from them?"

[Inland]

29. Good post. Hope it gets read. nt

[Proud_Democratt]

37. I did...and agree with TG's point of view.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[arwalden]

63. Hmmm... Excellent Observation.

<< I also find it sad that the first two people to applaud your post are those who refuse to allow atheists to define themselves, while believers are of course allowed to do so, and one of whom doesn't believe in supporting GLBT equality and believes blacks are naturally more predisposed to winding up in prison than non-blacks. I'd be sad to see you reflect their continuing intolerance and bigotry. I doubt it will happen, though; you're quite intelligent and compassionate. >>

Go figure. :shrug:

[NMMNG]

41. Good post TG

As yours typically are.


What are the REAL fears and the source of the REAL rage? I can't claim to know. Are atheists angry that they don't/can't believe? Do they wish they did/could?....Do they feel somehow locked out of the clubhouse?

I can only speak for myself of course, though I suspect my thoughts and feelings are shared by other atheists. I'm not angry that I don't believe, nor do I wish I could. I don't feel "locked out of the clubhouse" as that particular clubhouse is not one I wish to visit or participate in.

Some of the things that bother and/or anger me include (both in real life and on DU):
-Being proselytized to by people who insist I must accept their faith, and cannot seem to understand "no" and "I'm not interested" even when I repeat them several times.
-Having Bible verses thrown at me by people who know very well that I'm an atheist. It's the equivalent of saying "F*ck you" for all the respect it shows.
-People who presume that because I'm an atheist I am incapable of having moral/ethical values.
-People who think that I have some sort of "God shaped hole" (or "whatever shaped hole")in my life, or that I regret not being a believer. Do Christians regret not being Muslims, Wiccans or Buddhists?

I apologize if this offends anybody as it certainly wasn't intended to.

[bluesbassman]

57. Nothing offensive in your post Buffy.

Your post is a great example of expressing ones experiences and the feelings those experiences create. It also illustrates how one can cite examples of boorish behavior without con deming or judging the group or organization as a whole. You showed both personal conviction and civility in a fine post.

If you don't mind, I'd like to address the issues you raised.
-First, anyone who insists that someone else "must" accept their faith is flat wrong. I know of no major spiritual teaching that advocates this. Yes, getting the "message" out to others is important, but only when the recipient of the message is willing to listen. (Before anyone counters by saying that lots of religion was/is forced upon people, I agree. But I'm not talking about "religion", I'm talking about the spiritual teaching that precedes the religion).
-Next, quoting Bible verses to someone who clearly is not asking for them is rude and disrespectful. Further, it serves no purpose but to inflate the ego of the person doing the quoting.
-And, anyone who presumes that an atheist lacks moral or ethical values simply because they're an atheist shows their own ignorance and bigotry.
-Finlay, I think it's supremely presumptuous to assume what someone else "lacks". How in the world would they know? Because at one time they experienced some vacancy in their lives? I know many atheists who lead lives that are fulfilling and complete, and I applaud them for it. My faith and it's impact on my life works for me, but I certainly won't assume that someone else needs what I do.

Buffy, I hope that this Progressive Christian's views on the aggravating experiences you've had made some sense. I'm glad you shared your experiences, and I look forward to your future posts.

bluesbassman

[Random_Australian]

60. Sensible post. You could go far.

[arwalden]

64. Honestly?

<< I am not certain why, but there is deep, deep anger happening here. >>

Is that a conversation-starting device? Or do you HONESTLY not know why? (Frankly, I cannot imagine why someone as thoughtful and insightful as you wouldn't know or understand the reasons why there is "deep anger happening here".)

So... I'm glad you're not going too far away, and I guess I'll see ya round on the threads you do happen to pop-in on.

[cain_7777]

24. Yes, I am intolerant of you!

If Christians kept their grubby little hands out of politics and could keep a private matter private, then I would not have to publicly call you stupid for actually believing in superstition. I would call you stupid in private for believing in superstition.

[jukes]

32. :rofl:

"I would call you stupid in private for believing in superstition."



yep, sums it up.

[Critters2]

34. That is one broad brush you got there.

I've spent a good part of this week being bashed by my "fellow" Christians for being open and affirming of gays. Then I come here and find I am, by virtue of being Christian, intloerant. And stupid.

Well, I guess no one said atheists are tolerant.

Or, if they did, you've proved 'em wrong.

[Proud_Democratt]

35. This seems to paint Atheists with a broad brush also.

We Atheists, do not always share the same limits of verbal abuse or endurement. Sometimes a person will let things "roll off their back" easier than another person would, depending on the topic, tone or reply.
It's easy to fall into an offensive stance. Sometimes it's best to consider the source.
Not all believers are "out to getcha".

[bluesbassman]

38. This is unfortunate.

P_D & R_A I value your perspectives. This isn't about who's right and who's wrong concerning R/T. This is about making a legitimate point, and adding value to the debate and each other's understanding. We can all the object to that point or support that point. But posts like this serve no legitimate purpose. You want proof of that? When a post can illicit a response so distressed from someone as civil as T-Grannie, you really have to wonder about the OP's intent. Inane, I hope you got a kick out of posting this, 'cause it ain't worth much more than that.

[InaneAnanity]

42. Apparently

I got two kicks out of it, recommended.

[Random_Australian]

43. People get R's out of all sorts of things, but FYI anything less than 5

means as much as zero.

[bluesbassman]

44. Congratulations.

I should think your parents will be so proud.

[Random_Australian]

45. InaneAnanity, offending TG is widely regarding as crossing the line.

You can of course just go to the OP, click alert, and write that you want your thread locked or deleted.

Then, you can donate and talk in the Atheist and Agnostics group.

[InaneAnanity]

50. I just take it as

her having a faulty sense of humor.

[Random_Australian]

54. Nope, not this time. You may be unaware as yet of how others read what

you post.

I understand your humour just fine, and I'm a staunch atheist too, so I'm not choosing to be offended because it attacks my beliefs.

I am, however, going to take offense at this post. I see it as divisive, and even if it was the world's funniest joke, it still would not be worth it for the anger and flames it has caused.

This is an online community, and you are treating it like it in a way that takes away from that.

I believe this is against the purpose of DU.

P.S.... something seems faintly strange in all this. I'll tell you if I work it out.

[InaneAnanity]

58. I know whats faintly strange about it

Im a strange guy. I havent been eating much lately, making a more faint representation of myself.

[Random_Australian]

59. Freaks are in good company here. Be sure to eat 3 square meals a day.

[InaneAnanity]

61. Eating square meals is dangerous

I could become a square.

So I'm always sure to arrange my meals triangularly.

[SPKrazy]

39. Simple-We Should Not Mock Each Other's Beliefs n/t

[Meshuga]

46. Some of them are intolerant...

...sort of like the religious right. They try to impose their belief (of not believing in God) and don't respect other people's belief.

Instead of a debate where one respect the other belief or lack of belief we get threads like this mocking people who believe in God as if they were so childish to believe in a fairy tale.

But we know fairy tales are fairy tales and God is not a fairy tale. You believe in fairy tales if you are a child or you are an adult with a child's mentality but people who believe in God have their reasons. Sometimes using rationality and sometimes not.

Some people think that if there is not a metaphysical source of life , then life is ultimately purposeless. To them life would be nothing more than the chance of innumerable coincidences and human beings would be nothing more than self-aware molecules. They choose to believe there is a force behind existence.

Does God exist? Well, there are good arguments on both sides of this question so we cannot dismiss either side.

A believer in God has to account for one thing, the existence of evil. The atheist has to account for the existence of everything else.

Everything, according to an atheist, developed by chance. People who believe in God, do admit that beauty, love, art, intelligence, consciousness, conscience, natural law, complex cellular activity, the pervasive sense of purpose, the notions of universal justice and morality, and all creation could emanate from inanimate coincidences. But while this is a possibility (not to mention our religious natures) compels us to reject it as a probability. Design suggests to us a Designer, law a Lawgiver, creation a Creator, intelligence a Source of intelligence, conscience a God.

There are two possible explanations for creation: that everything comes from chance and coincidence, or from design and purpose. The choice is between nonsense and sense. To a believer, if there is no God, one cannot speak of sense in life, or of good and evil, or of ultimate purpose. This things would be mere delusions created by our minds to deny that all is anarchic and meaningless.

But the moment you affirm that these non-physical aspects of life posses an objective reality, you are implicitly affirming the existence of God. From where else these non-physical realities derive? Gases and amino acids don't possess truth, purpose, good, or evil.

I am not posting all this to try to prove the existence of a God. I am posting this to show that people who believe in God have an intellectual reason for believing in God. Comparing the belief in God to a belief in fairy tales is ridiculous at the very least.

I can see people say that the Bible uses fairy tales to express what God is but the Bible being a book of fairy tales does not make God into a fairy tale.

It is okay to not believe there is a God because who the hell can prove that God exists or not? But you cannot dismiss other people for believing in God unless you did not put to much thought into the subject or you are trying to proselytize your atheism.

***Edited this message to spellcheck

[Random_Australian]

47. You know, you and I could have some very interesting discussions

about this, but before this whole schism dies down it may be unwise.

The reason for this is that, given you seem to have well thought out reasons on the subject, I fear that suchlike discussion between atheist and theist would become flamebait, I certainly think that some posters would leap at the opportunity.

However, if you feel up to it, at some later date we could try it anyway, and deal with what comes come what may, if you'll pardon the tortous language.

It saddens me that R/T is becoming like this.

Edit: I might be able to think but I never said I could spell!

[Meshuga]

48. I'm game :-)

That would be great. I know it is hard to have a discussion on the subject because it does become flamebait. I also believe we should try to start a discussion at some later date.

Take care! :-)

[Random_Australian]

49. I will, thanks. Bed time now, 10:30 pm saturday.

Nighty night.

[SPKrazy]

51. Extremists Are Like That

agree with you completely

[arwalden]

65. Oh My Word! -- ROFL!!

I saw that you spell-checked... but did you PROOF-READ?? I can't believe that anyone would say such things. (Well, actually, yes... I can.)


<< They try to impose their belief (of not believing in God)... >>

Yes... those pesky atheists are always FORCING their "beliefs" on others, aren't they? ("Hey you over there... STOP BELIEVING! I saw your eyes closed... were you... PRAYING!?! Well, you better cease and desist, buddy! NO PRAYING ALLOWED!)

How horrible of those atheists to get LAWS written that impose their atheist religious beliefs on others, eh? You'd think they wanted everyone to be treated EQUALLY or something! The bastards!


<< ... or you are trying to proselytize your atheism. >>

Let's not forget about those door-to-door atheists. (**KNOCK-KNOCK-KNOCK** "Oh hello, we're here to tell you about nothingness." "We want to invite you to visit our chur-, uh, our uh... the MALL! We think you should go SHOPPING on Sunday!")

[arwalden]

53. A-a-a-and How! --- You Said It!!! --- Amen, Brother!

[Random_Australian]

55. The other thread sufficed, IMO.

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

66. I'm going to lock this.

This is a broadbrushed smear to say that athiests are intolerant. And while I think it was posted tongue-in-cheek, the moderators have opted to lock before it turns into a flamefest.

With regard to religion (or the lack thereof), Democratic Underground is a diverse community which includes Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics, and others. All are welcome here. For this reason, we expect members to make an extra effort to be sensitive to different religious beliefs, and to show respect to members who hold different religious beliefs. Members are welcome to discuss whether they agree or disagree with particular religious beliefs, but they are expected to do so in a relatively sensitive and respectful manner. As a general rule, discussions about ideas are usually permitted, but broad-brush bigoted statements about groups of people — either religious or non-religious — are not.

best,
wakemeupwhenitsover
DU Moderator