Interesting conversation at the repair shop

[nadinbrzezinski]

So I took the car to the shop this morning... and of course they had CNN on the storm in the east.

Now it is wickedly hot round these parts... so the lady besides me turned to weather...

Well I mentioned that I would not want to be anybody at an EOC in the East Coast right now...

Well she said, and I quote... "we need to pray for them!"

"Ok, I hope the people went to the store and got ready with food, water, batteries..."

"Well they still need to be practical but we need to pray for a miracle..."

"Yes, prayer will help you, but people in the path of the storm need things that cannot be delivered by any god."

She dropped it, another gentleman asked, if I believed in any god. He was insulted I guess.

I told him... if there is one it really does not play favorites or play a role in human history. If such a good existed then all the horrors and tragedies would be stopped for the righteous right? Oh and do not give me the story of job.

So do you believe in god...

Not in one that plays favorites at all in human history. Perhaps there is a god particle (Higss bossom) but that god really has no time for us teeny little critters living on the third planet going around a yellow start in an insignificant arm of the Milky way...And yes, before you say it, I also believe in science and evolution and rational thought, which also means getting ready is the rational thing to do. Pray only after you get ready... if that is what you need to do for your own religious reasons. But your first priority is to get that water, not hope it gets delivered.

He looked surprised and shocked... you have to understand making this statement in that particular part of the county. means he just met a rare quantity... and that goes for the both of them.

I really get tired of people pushing their views on me. And yes I mean it... if there is a god (the big bang might be the place) it really does not intervene in human history... but for those who believe in a god... get ready and then pray... serious.

Oh and I did not expect the weather talk to turn into a cosmology\theology talk either.

[MorningGlow]

1. People who have lost the thread

It's okay if people want to believe in God/the gods/whatever, but that doesn't mean they can sit on their asses and hope a million dollars or whatever they want falls out of the sky. What I learned in my esoteric studies is that the old adage "The Lord helps those who help themselves" is actually talking about co-creation with the ASSISTANCE of the Divine, not asking for something and just expecting it to be handed to you on a silver platter.

And, in this case, it also means using your brains and getting the hell out of Dodge if that's what the situation calls for. If not, preparing for the worst.

[gateley]

3. Reminds me of a joke:

Flood. People told to evacuate. Water is rising. Rescue team comes by in a 4-wheeler.

Guy says "I'm fine, not going anywhere. God will save me".

Water rises. Guy had to go to second floor in his house. Rescue team comes by in a rowboat.

Guy says "I'm fine, not going anywhere. God will save me".

Water rises. Guy is on the roof. Rescue team comes by with a helicopter.

Guy says "I'm fine, not going anywhere. God will save me".

Water rises. Guy drowns. Gets to heaven and says to God -- What happened? I believed in you! You were supposed to save me!

God says "I sent you a 4-wheeler, rowboat and helicopter -- what more could I do?"

[MorningGlow]

6. Love it!

:)

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. That is one of my all time favs

[EC]

22. Bill Cosby had a whole Noah routine

that was really funny. I remember it ended with God asking Noah, "How long can you tread water?"

[gateley]

27. Ha! That's funny! nt

[Thats my opinion]

33. Right! nt

[Deep13]

68. Lord helps those who help themselves =

people have to help themselves. It's indistinguishable from being on our own.

[Newest Reality]

2. Being somewhere between our

creature and our subjective, symbolic representations allows for all manner of synthesis of the two. It may be a question of balance, considering our shared predicament.

By nature and definition, an ultimate GOD would be unknowable, and so, our species has lived in the shadow of "revealed" religions where someone interprets or defines the unknowable by claiming a direct communion with the ineffable. The revealed religions claim an exclusivity to that revelation and so, dogma ensues.

As for illusions as ideas about what actually is, perhaps we need more convincing ones, now? They do break down and fade, especially as individuals find the freedom to entertain their own, subjective understandings rather than the social, organizing concepts that control and define acceptable and unacceptable behavior based on an ultimate, abstract authority as an interwoven substrate of culture.

An god who excretes seems to make sense as a potential these days. We are getting dumped on in so many ways, why not deify the act?

[LynneSin]

4. I'd ask where was God when Rick Perry was praying for rain

Personally, I think she said a giant size 'FUCK YOU' to Rick Perry and diverted all the rain to us folks on the east coast - because we are being overwhelmed with rain.

[akvo]

5. Preparation & prayer are not mutually exclusive

People can pray and prepare at the same time. They are not mutually exclusive.

From your post, it sounds like maybe you are overly sensitive to the subject? The lady made a mild statement that doesn't sound like preaching at all. The man asked a question which you answered, and that was the end of the conversation. I don't see any preaching from him. Nobody interfered with you, hindered you, harrassed you, said anything rude to you.

And I do believe in God, specifically Christianity as outlined in the New Testament. In your terms, that means I believe in a God that plays favourites - only those that believe a certain way are saved and go to heaven. That's my choice, you can choose differently if you want.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Actually she was preaching

You had to be there I guess.

And I will not question what you believe if this gives you comfort... just ask that when you have a disaster, get ready. Pray while you want while doing it, but get ready.

[monmouth]

9. "We need to pray for them"....Maybe you do lady if that's your thing.

It's the wording, that "we" making the assumption that you believe the same as me. I find it insulting. Pray for them on your terms and quietly, keep it to yourself.

[Bluenorthwest]

11. So you never pray in public? Or are you a Paulist, posing as a

Christian? I mean, do you live by the actual teachings of Jesus or by the Paulist stuff on a cafeteria basis? Do you, for example, believe that women should never wear any garment that draws attention to their beauty, or is expensive? That they should refrain from asking questions in public, but only do so to their husbands in private? Which bits do you 'believe'? And more important, which do you actually practice? Any of it?
So you 'believe' that Jerry Falwell goes to heaven but good people don't, over nouns and verbs and other words?

[akvo]

28. Am I ultra fundamentalist ......

Am I ultra fundamentalist believing that every single word must be followed to the letter? No. The concepts, yes. Much of the rules (such as womens dress from 1 Timothy 2-14) are specific to the period and are designed to teach lessons through examples and guidance.

I believe the philosophy including the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ.

Anyone that accepts Jesus is saved, even if the acceptance is by a terrible criminal on his deathbed. That does not mean that all a person has to do is live in any manner they choose and simply say the words at the last minute of life. A person has to truly accept in their heart.

Christianity is salvation through faith not through works. Good works naturally follows salvation, which is one indication of salvation, but there is not a tally sheet or scales that weigh your good deeds against the bad deeds to determine if a person goes to heaven or hell.

As to Jerry Falwell,I have never met him, I assume he is a Christian and if I ever do met him I will treat him as one of the Bro's, but when it gets down to it I don't know where he is going.

What I practice in my daily life is probably irrelevent in this discussion, but since you asked specifically I never pray to impress people (which is what the "don't pray in public" issue is about).

[laconicsax]

30. I'm curious...

When you say that some passages are specific to the time and are designed to teach lessons through examples and guidance...

When did they stop being literal? Presumably, the rules on womens' dress were literal during the time in which they were written, so when was it that they became a lesson through example?

[Thats my opinion]

36. They were never literal.

They were culturally conditional. We are expected to love God with "all our minds" and that mean we think through every verse in light of its context--and ours.

[laconicsax]

39. That doesn't answer the question.

1 Timothy 2:9 says, "In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;"

Would this verse not have been literal when written? If so, what has changed such that it no longer means exactly what it says? If not, what lesson does it teach and why did it need to be taught in such a manner?

[akvo]

42. Great question

Great question, I've never thought of a timeline.

First, not all sections that we interpret as "rules" were meant as general rules for all people in all times. The dress code for women in 1 Timothy for example. 1 Timothy was only part of a dialogue between Paul and Timothy and related to issues with the church at Ephesus. It may be that there were problems with people flaunting their religious status and wealth as opposed to living in a dignified and respectful manner. Women dressing modestly and with self-control may have been a solution to a specific problem at Ephesus.

On the other hand, women prohibited as preachers is a good case for a timeline. It may have made sense at the time because women generally were not educated or held positions of authority in society, and their legal status was non-existent. The problem is that the Bible doesn't seem to fully explain why women should not be preachers, and there are examples in the Bible (New & Old Testament) of women who held high positions within the church and society. The "ban" on women preachers may not have been an outright ban, but a rule-of-thumb since very few women were qualified and would be taken serioulsy in a male dominated society. If the social context during Biblical times is considered, I think there is room for interpretation. Times have changed and the rule of thumb no longer applies.

But thats my opinion, there are others who will take the ban as a literal ban and I cannot refute that position. Some things are vague and open to interpretation.

Thats not a complete answer to your general question, which is an excellent question. I will do some reading and talk to some people and see what comes out.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Well a few of the the things you mentioned ARE articles of faith

we may quibble about another, since it depends on CHRISTIAN denomination on how much good works matter.

I am not a Christian, but Jesus's words are quite specific on that as far as I am concerned... and his words about clothing the unclothed, feeding the hungry and visiting the prisoner mean good works are part of it... but admittedly I am looking from the outside, so I might not be interpreting this right... and for some a Jesuit, who happened to agree with me on my silly interpretation, is not a Christian, just a papist.

Calvin had an argument with him on this and the meaning of salvation... something about those who are wealthy have been already (almost) saved. Why the protestant ethic might be a moral quandary, at least to me.

But believing that salvation is through your lord, it is an article of faith, you either believe in it... or you don't.

Just like Judaism has this one... you shall not have others before me and I am your lord and only god... you either believe in it, or you don't.

That is why they are called ARTICLES OF FAITH and have little to do with fundamentalism. THey just are.

Trivia... cool trivia... Judaism has TEN articles of faith... oh and ONLY ONE comes from the ten commandments

[MikeH]

41. I have some very serious problems with some things you say

I believe the philosophy including the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ.

Anyone that accepts Jesus is saved, even if the acceptance is by a terrible criminal on his deathbed. That does not mean that all a person has to do is live in any manner they choose and simply say the words at the last minute of life. A person has to truly accept in their heart.

So a murder victim who happens to not have "accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior" is "unsaved" and goes to hell. However if the murderer some time later has a change of heart and "repents" and "accepts Jesus Christ" then the murderer is "saved" and is let into heaven.

If that is the case then God is simply a despicable, arbitrary, and evil tyrant, and "salvation" is nothing more than the arbitrary favor of a despotic tyrant.

Christianity is salvation through faith not through works. Good works naturally follows salvation, which is one indication of salvation...

Actually for myself I did once "accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior", and found that my having done so, and supposedly being "saved", and supposedly having a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ", had been of absolutely no help to me in enabling me to deal with any difficult or distressing circumstance or issue in my life, or with anything that was a source of pain, frustration, or unhappiness with me, and certainly did not help in enabling me to do any noticeably more or better "good works".

I eventually came to see that I needed to part company with the Christian faith, and particularly to absolve myself of any duties and obligations specifically imposed by the faith (as opposed to those incumbent on any good or moral person). I am much happier and much more at peace with myself for having done so. I am as certain as I am of anything that parting company with the Christian faith was the right and healthy thing for me to do.

I consider the Bible to be no more than a book written and put together by a bunch of fallible human beings, and at the very best exhibiting human fallibility and human prejudice just like anything else that has ever been written.

[akvo]

43. It sounds harsh to non-believers but you are correct

So a murder victim who happens to not have "accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior" is "unsaved" and goes to hell. However if the murderer some time later has a change of heart and "repents" and "accepts Jesus Christ" then the murderer is "saved" and is let into heaven.

Correct. The salvation door is always open and people can always repent and be saved. The theology is that acceptance leads to salvation, not being a victim.

Actually for myself I did once "accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior", and found that my having done so, and supposedly being "saved", and supposedly having a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ", had been of absolutely no help to me in enabling me to deal with any difficult or distressing circumstance or issue in my life, or with anything that was a source of pain, frustration, or unhappiness with me, and certainly did not help in enabling me to do any noticeably more or better "good works".

I eventually came to see that I needed to part company with the Christian faith, and particularly to absolve myself of any duties and obligations specifically imposed by the faith (as opposed to those incumbent on any good or moral person). I am much happier and much more at peace with myself for having done so. I am as certain as I am of anything that parting company with the Christian faith was the right and healthy thing for me to do.

I consider the Bible to be no more than a book written and put together by a bunch of fallible human beings, and at the very best exhibiting human fallibility and human prejudice just like anything else that has ever been written.

I'm sorry to hear that you changed your mind, but that does lead to an interesting issue. Some believe "once saved, always saved". Christians sin but that doesn't negate their salvation since its salvation through faith, not works, and works don't negate faith. I suppose if a person drifts away then they are still saved, but if someone honestly rejects their salvation ands faith then they are not saved any longer.

[Humanist_Activist]

51. Its not just harsh, its evil...

to demand such a thing is unconscionable. Also, I'm trying to figure out why you think faith without works as a path to salvation is acceptable. An asshole who is "saved" goes to be rewarded in heaven, and an kind person who isn't "saved" goes to hell.

Why should anyone worship such an evil being like this god you believe in?

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. Well by this logic, of this particular christian faith

(related to Calvininsm most likely)... adolph Hitler is in heaven while his six million victims who happen to be jewish, his half a million who happened to be Roma, and of the other seven million a good percentage... are in hell.

That is what these people need to chew on, but won't.

Why at least to me Calvinism and it's branches are devoid of any morel center.

[akvo]

61. An exageration....

You assume none of Hitlers victims were "saved" and all went to hell, which is not true. Nobody knows the numbers and nobody will know the numbers. How many turned to God while being persecuted, how many were already believers? Unknown. Jews are the one group that as Gods Chosen People have their own route to God outside of Jesus (they are subject to the Old Covenant between God and Abraham (the Jews), while Jesus represents the New Covenant between God and all people).

Hitler could be in Heaven if he repented and accepted Jesus, but did he? Theoretically it could have happened, but theory is one thing, real life is another. Could a person so steeped in anti-religous thought have a complete change of heart? Its possible but not likely. Look at your own position, think of the intellectual and emotional issues you would need to overcome to convert. How much larger a hurdle it would be to someone as far gone as Hitler.

Hitler grew up in the Catholic Church and was intrigued with the pageantry of the Church, and he certainly knew of the teachings, but those teachings were rejected. In Nazi Germany, some religion was tolerated and while not banned it was discouraged. It was acceptable for people to be Catholic, but allegiance had to be to the Nazi Party first (people literally swore allegiance to Hitler), to Germany second, family third. Too much religous faith was a hindrance to progression within the Hitler Youth, the Nazi Party, the SS, and other powerful organizations.

There is no indication from people around Hitler up to his final moment that there was any conversion. If he did convert, I think there would have been some indication to the people around him.

And if Hitler did convert, he would become a completely different person. Its a change of heart, not just words.

[LuvNewcastle]

65. "No man cometh unto the Father but by me."

Christians believe that Jesus is the Son of God and was God incarnate while on Earth. People who do not accept this belief do not, according to Christianity, have any "route to God." That includes Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and other religions. Some Christians don't believe in a literal Hell, so they wouldn't say that non-believers go to Hell, but they would say that there can be no relationship with God outside of a belief in Jesus Christ. The basis of this doctrine comes not only from the words of Jesus himself, but numerous other references from several books of the New Testament. You can try to tone down the doctrine all you want to, but this belief is at the very core of Christianity.

[akvo]

57. Because its a change of heart

Good works can be performed without a change of heart. If good deeds negate bad deeds, then a person can willingly continue a bad life without consequence. For example, a person can be evil every Monday and then do a certain number of good deeds on Tuesday to clear the slate.

Faith requires a change of heart, and good deeds follow the change of heart. If a person truly believes, then their model of behavour is Jesus and that person will strive to be like Jesus.

[Humanist_Activist]

58. Jesus wasn't a paragon of virtue, he was, ar best an egotistical dickhead...

He cursed a fig tree for crying out loud, so add delusional to the list.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. articles of faith are articles of faith

Yes, there is one god and you shan't accept others before me is as much an article of faith as Jesus Christ is lord, or there is one god and Muhammad is his prophet. Revelatory religions are unique in how they exclude people from other faiths.

That said... not all Christians (I find it odd I have to point this out since I am not one) are that exclusive. For that matter not all Jews are like that or Muslims (just dealing with the three major revelatory religions)... but the fundies among them are.

There is a role for the righteous and a path to salvation for those who are not Christian in some Christian denominations. What bothers me is that a significant group of Christians do not recognize either good works... (yes Christ made those central in the new testament... will deal with who wrote it in a second)... were central, or that the righteous can achieve salvation without the revelation. The revelation just helps... but if you are a righteous person you too can be saved. It is a very JEWISH concept and given that Christ was a Rabbi in the classic sense of the word... it should surprise none. Just Gentiles were seen among Jews as just as righteous as Jews... well there is this little dark secret that Judaism did not have a sense of hell, in the classic sense either... so that is fairly recent for jews that is.

As to who wrote it... the old testament, we know this now, was commissioned by one of the late kings... and a minor one at that. We know it was written by four groups of people... and you can see it in the stylistic differences. The first character mentioned in it that can distantly be called historical is david... and he was no king, but a clan leader.

The New Testament, we know it was written anywhere from 100 to 300 years after the fact... and in fact there were far more books than entered the Canon at Nicea... my personal favorite is one by that lady who was a prostitute and was a member of apostles... I have no idea why the Council would like to suppress that one... nope not a one. But the Essenes had a point there... and the faith would have gone in a very different direction if they prevailed.


There was a very valid reason for the reformation. Yes the corruption of the apostolic church was legend (some might argue still is) but I find it of interest that things like a wealthy man cannot go through the eye of a needle to get into heaven has been replaced with... wealth indicates salvation, since the saved are chosen to lead us... and wealth is the true indicator of it.

I am also amused that a large minority truly has ignored the almost commandment for good works, which are part of the morals of the church, with deep ties to actually ancient Judaism...

But some of this... like the law was given to the people at Sinai by God, or these books were revealed by god... are matters of faith, and you cannot argue faith.

I know that my life path has taken me increasingly away from any belief in god... but I still find the HISTORY of all of this damn fascinating. I also know that if we have another bout of antisemitism... it ain't gonna matter what I personally believe in. But to me the actual history is far more fascinating than the mythology.

[MikeH]

40. So you believe those who make a correct guess are "saved" and go to heaven

And I do believe in God, specifically Christianity as outlined in the New Testament. In your terms, that means I believe in a God that plays favourites - only those that believe a certain way are saved and go to heaven.

So those who happen to guess correctly by believing a certain way (i.e. by "accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior") go to heaven. Those who happen to guess wrong by adhering to a religion other than Christianity, say Islam, are condemned and go to hell.

And usually those who make the right guess happen to be brought up in a society or environment conducive to "accepting Jesus Christ". Those who are unfortunate enough to be brought up in, say, a Muslim or Hindu society or environment, will usually make the wrong guess and adhere to a religion different from Christianity, and thus will not be "saved".

[Jenny_92808]

62. Well said. Also, there are many people in the world who...

have never heard of Jesus. So then, by circumstance they must go to hell.

[LiberalLoner]

10. I've noticed that too before in some right-wingers who are fundamentalist to boot.

It's as if there is this attitude of, "I don't need to take any action because God will save me. I am too special so He won't let anything bad happen to me. Bad stuff only happens to people God hates and I know God loves me."

A neighbor of ours, back in the 1950's, refused to have her children vaccinated against Polio because she said "God will protect my family because I am a Godly woman." (Not that it matters, but she was a Southern Baptist in case anyone is curious.)

Sure enough, her daughter contracted Polio and suffered permanent injury as a result.

I think it must be a type of denial or something? I don't know. Denial that anything bad could happen. Making themselves feel better by thinking they are better than those to whom tragedy happened.

I really think this type of thinking is found all too commonly among fundamentalist right-wingers.

K&R

[sinkingfeeling]

14. They're all here just awaiting the Rapture or Second coming, so if they do a little

child abuse (denying a child preventive health care is abuse, IMO), so what?

[LiberalLoner]

17. Yes, I've seen that too! It seems like such a strange thing to me, like those

followers of that one guy who predicted the end of the world last year - Harold Camp? Was that his name? It just seems kind of nuts to me.

[Jenny_92808]

63. Yep...They believe the corpses crawling out of the grave scenario..

I tend to believe in Edgar Cayce's teachings...

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/cayce11.html

Cayce foresaw that this "battle" (Armageddon)will not be a war fought on Earth. Rather, it will be a spiritual struggle between the "higher forces of light" and "lower forces of darkness" for 1000 years of Earth time. The reason for this struggle is to prevent souls from lower afterlife realms from reincarnating to Earth. By preventing souls from the lower afterlife realms from reincarnating to Earth, only enlightened souls will be permitted to reincarnate. The result will be 1000 years of building a world of peace and enlightenment. After 1000 years, souls from lower afterlife realms will be permitted once again to reincarnate to Earth. By this time, the so-called "kingdom of heaven" will have been established on Earth.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. And it is not limited to christian fundies

either...

Oy...

[sinkingfeeling]

12. Being in the 'Bible Belt', I'm always amazed at how 'god' has to be included in every

conversation about the most mundane subjects. And they always expect you to think the same way.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Yep that is the point

and it is also the point that we should start speaking of this in how it affects politics and policy..

[Thats my opinion]

37. What authentic religion demand is that you

Think!

[cleanhippie]

45. Wait, what? Religion demands that its adherents "think"?

Where is the "thinking" involved when believing in the resurrection of a dead body? Where is the "thinking" involved in believing a cracker and wine become flesh and blood? I could go on and on, but you get my point, right?

[skepticscott]

48. Since when?

And what, please, is an "authentic" religion? Are you saying that the deeply and sincerely held religious beliefs of tens of millions of Americans are not "authentic"?

Can you provide us with the definition and characteristics of an "authentic" religion, and give us some examples of some religions that are "authentic" and those that are not?

[cleanhippie]

53. No. Thats My Opinion will NEVER quantify just what "authentic" religion is. EVER.

[Obamanaut]

16. This part of the message block is interesting: "I really get tired of

of people pushing their views on me..."

The majority of the message block was a tale of YOUR views being foisted onto someone else. If they started the chat with some sort of religions theme, it is easy to nip it in the bud.

I have found that if/when I do not want a conversation re politics or religion, a simple "I really don't want to talk about politics or religion right now, thank you."

And it has always stopped it.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LiberalLoner]

19. I politely disagree, I don't think she was pushing her views on others. If I had heard that, I

would have interpreted it more as general information and an attempt at being polite while still retaining integrity towards one's own point of view.

I don't feel she was insisting that they stop praying or stop believing in God, at all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Exactly, if people want to pray that is fine with me

but any conversation on weather turning on miracles is just jarring to me.

After the rescue in Chile (A feat of human engineering) a very religious friend of ours (who also happens to be a lefty) told me that it was a miracle. We politely disagreed... but I have never told him to stop praying either.

[akvo]

29. How do you know it wasn't a miracle?

Do all miracles have to be supernatural intervention obvious to the entire world, or can they be smaller interventions obvious only to an individual? Can't God work behind the scenes, sparking an idea in an engineers mind that leads to a rescue, or delaying the scrapping of critical hardware so that it was available for the rescue?

I tend to think that this life is a test of faith. An obvious modern miracle would provide conclusive proof of God's existence and maybe of the truth of a specific theology, and then faith is not required.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. Alas it could also be free will

alas it could also be the fact that humans are tool makers...

Alas... we could go back and forth in circles until the cows come home.

Why we politely disagreed. He believes it is a miracle... that is a matter of FAITH...

[cleanhippie]

54. If it WAS a "miracle", then that proves your god is a horrible being.

If any "miracle" actually happened, that means that your god, in some way, intervened in the course of a human(s) life, which begs the question: Why does this god choose to intervene in some matters, yet chooses to ignore the horrific suffering of most of the world?

[akvo]

55. The earth is not heaven

The earth is not heaven. This life is a test, and for a test there must be trials and tribulations to be overcome. Pass the test and the reward is in the afterlife.

Not knowing the mind of God, I can only guess why God intervenes in some matters and not others. In many cases in the Bible when God intervened, the intervention was due to the faithful asking God to intervene. Even in the cases in which God seems to intervene unilaterally (as in the Flood), we don't know that prayer from Noah and his family was not a factor.

But if God intervenes totally and there is no suffering, hunger, disease, every want and need is provided, what would life be like? Paradise or a prison? In either case, mankind has to lose all free will.

[cleanhippie]

56. If your god intervenes at all, even in the slightest way, then free-will is a farce.

[akvo]

60. Thats an exageration

That requires you to equate all interventions equally. A slight intervention, for example giving comfort to a mother with an ill child, isn't the same as God stopping a tsunami and saving thousands of lives.

If intervention is asked for through prayer, and God intervenes (which doesn't always happen), then intevention is limited by free will.

[cleanhippie]

67. Thats rationalization.

You are trying to rationalize the problem, and failing.

[Silent3]

66. The interesting thing is that the end result...

...of a God who intervenes only in covert ways, a God whose reasoning about when and how to intervene are supposedly beyond our mortal comprehension, is utterly indistinguishable from a situation with no divine intervention at all.

Bad thing happens to bad person: Punishment!
Bad thing happens to good person: It's a test!
Good thing happens to bad person: Wickedness will be punished later. Maybe it's a deal with the Devil!
Good thing happens to good person: Reward!

Person prays, gets what they prayed for: God has answered their prayers!
Person prays, doesn't get what they prayed for: God answered, he just answered "no"! God gave them what they needed, not what they wanted!

[Angry Dragon]

70. +1000

[Angry Dragon]

69. So love to your god is a test

Is that how how so love to the people around you??
You tell them to prove to you that they love you and then you will take car of them??
And saying you do not understand your god is a cop-out......
If one expects love and wants it then they open up their heart and soul
and does not hide themselves.........

[skepticscott]

59. Please, not the old

"God doesn't want to make it too obvious" dodge. It's nothing but special pleading to justify why the world looks just as we'd expect if there were no god like the one you believe in.

[sfpcjock]

20. God favors the prepared if she favors any.

You pray that you have done all you could to prepare. That is why Gladwell talks about 10,000 hours of study to become an expert.

[masmdu]

23. "EOC" is what?

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Emergency Operation Center and I did translate it for her

sorry, alphabet soup...

[hedgehog]

25. You can also refer to an expert opinion on this:

Then he led him to Jerusalem, made him stand on the parapet of the temple, and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down from here, for it is written:

‘He will command his angels concerning you,

to guard you,’and:

‘With their hands they will support you,

lest you dash your foot against a stone.’”

Jesus said to him in reply, “It also says, ‘You shall not put the Lord, your God, to the test.’”

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. That is a good one that I should remember

:-)

[Thats my opinion]

32. Sounds as if

you have good solid clue as to what it authentic Christian faith and what is superstition.
The governor of N. Carolina asked the people of that State to pray that the storm won't hit them. Where would she rather it hit? This sort of thing is what gives all religion a bad name.

[cleanhippie]

35. "what it authentic Christian faith and what is superstition"

Let me turn your statement into a question for you.

What is the difference between authentic Christian faith and what is superstition?




Please, be specific.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. Serious question did any governor do that?

I mean I know Perry did for rains, but still.

And no I am not a Christian... but I admit all religions have a subgroup that is quite superstitious. It has little to do with religion, in my opinion,

[Thats my opinion]

46. In Christian faith

Prayer is not getting God to pay attention to our wills, and responding to them by doing what we ask.
but
putting ourselves quietly in a mood so that we can pay attention to what God wills and responding to it.


And prayer is very important

[darkstar3]

47. And who says you get to define that?

[skepticscott]

49. So when Jesus said

that what people pray to God for in his name, they shall receive, he was dead wrong?

Somehow, I think he had a better pipeline to that than you...

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. Not from what others have explained

But I came to realize a long time ago that Christianity is an umbrella term for many religions.

:-)

Peace by the way

[Angry Dragon]

71. So god is really inside of you??

[polly7]

64. I had a neighbour lady who told me quite often she was praying for me.

I wanted so badly to ask her why, but instead just always said 'thank-you'. As someone who has lost 99.9% of my faith in God, it still didn't hurt to be glad for her, religion was obviously a great joy in her life. Live and let live .... but I applaud you for reminding those people we've been given brains and need to use them, with prayer or without.