An answer to chummer: no, Carl Sagan did NOT die believing in God

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

Since the thread in which she asked this (about a completely different subject) is locked...

I own a copy of his last book. It includes an account of his death by his wife. No conversion, and she explicit says so. Glad I could help.

[Zenlitened]

1. I think it's standard operating procedure for the religionists...

... to trot that line out whenever a well-known atheist dies. Thanks for taking the time to post a correction.

:hi:

[mondo joe]

2. And a good argument that getting religion may reflect some sort of

diminished capacity. ;-)

[spanone]

3. Beware of the freep.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zenlitened]

5. LOL!

:rofl:

[MissB]

6. Yeah, that is a reasonable request

I mean, most of us keep a tape recorder by our bed, since we know our exact moment of death.

[Zenlitened]

9. "Tell the world no light, no tunnel, I'm still an atheist! And, oh yeah..

... luv ya, honey. Bye now."

:D

[MissB]

10. LOL

:toast:

[LiberalFighter]

48. How about "They don't have Republicans in Heaven"?

God says "No... There the reason people don't believe in God. Even Satan won't take them."

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

7. Wow. That surely is NOT just a river in Egypt... (nt)

[Coexist]

8. too funny

[Hugin]

11. I personally keep a set of written papers and...

a set of tapes which completely contradict them.

I like to keep people guessing...

I opted for the "circus" option in my Living Will.

;)

(Didn't realize he did the same thing.... maybe.
Darn, now I have to come up with something original.)

[DearAbby]

12. So much for the respect of Marriage,

distrust the wife....oooooo...I guess his writings are not enough, have to have a taped confession, nothing less will do.

[Solly Mack]

13. Yes, he left one to address just this very issue

It's called "Billy-yons and Billy-yons of Things I Said While Drawing My Last Breath"

Unfortunately, he only got to number 1 on the list.

"Still no God"

I know...you feel cheated. I'm sorry...but you can buy the tape for only $19.95. Just send me a SASE big enough to hold a cassette and I'll send you a bona-fide copy of his last words....all 3 of them.

[Swamp Rat]

59. I love Calvin and Hobbes!

:D

edit:

[LeftyMom]

14. Then man believed in science,

wrote about science was well known for his lack of faith in alien invaders, sky deities and other unproven silliness.

You want a taped message to prove that somehow in his last minutes he didn't do a complete one-eighty on things he'd talked and witten about for years?

I demand a tape to prove the Pope didn't summon demons to do his bidding on his deathbed. I mean, he seemed pretty sincere about the Christianity stuff, but it's possible he got ahold of a copy of the Key of Solomon and decided to dabble in ceremonial magic in his final hours. I don't think it's unreasonable to demand evidence proving he didn't.

:sarcasm: tag for the humor impaired.

edit: fixed typos

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

15. Great answer!

(Pssst. You left one typo. The first word in the subject. :silly:)

[Warren DeMontague]

20. Yes, because surely anyone who didn't explicitly remind us

(and provide us with tape recorded evidence) that he made it all the way to his demise not believing in the immensely logical, scientifically rational proposition that an invisible magical man in the sky runs the entire universe, MUST have accepted Jesus Christ on his deathbed.

Give me a fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucking break.

[Warren DeMontague]

24. Help Who?... Oh, wait.

Buh-Bye.

[BiggJawn]

25. The Chum Bucket is EMPTY!

Thanks for playing, Elad will give you your Lovely Parting Gifts on your way back to Freak ReTHUGlic...

[yankeedem]

27. Cleanup on aisle 6

For some reason it's like whack a mole today.

[Warren DeMontague]

35. I'm tellin ya, they're pissed about gas prices.

Like they have fire ants in their underwear.

[K-W]

37. I think this proves that evidence doesnt concern believers. EOM

[mainer]

16. Carl Sagan's wife's article about her husband's death: link

"When my husband died, because he was so famous and known for not being a believer, many people would come up to me-it still sometimes happens-and ask me if Carl changed at the end and converted to a belief in an afterlife. They also frequently ask me if I think I will see him again. Carl faced his death with unflagging courage and never sought refuge in illusions. The tragedy was that we knew we would never see each other again. I don't ever expect to be reunited with Carl. But, the great thing is that when we were together, for nearly twenty years, we lived with a vivid appreciation of how brief and precious life is. We never trivialized the meaning of death by pretending it was anything other than a final parting. Every single moment that we were alive and we were together was miraculous-not miraculous in the sense of inexplicable or supernatural. We knew we were beneficiaries of chance. . . . That pure chance could be so generous and so kind. . . . That we could find each other, as Carl wrote so beautifully in Cosmos, you know, in the vastness of space and the immensity of time. . . . That we could be together for twenty years. That is something which sustains me and it's much more meaningful. . . . The way he treated me and the way I treated him, the way we took care of each other and our family, while he lived. That is so much more important than the idea I will see him someday. I don't think I'll ever see Carl again. But I saw him. We saw each other. We found each other in the cosmos, and that was wonderful."

http://www.csicop.org/si/2003-11/ann-druyan.html

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

17. A truly moving eulogy.

I'll bet even chummer will agree with that.

[progressoid]

26. I dunno 'bout that. Theres some purty big words in there.

Hard to agree with something you can't understand.

[AliceWonderland]

19. I've read her account

...how they said goodbye at his bedside as he was dying, both aware they'd never see each other again. I found it very moving and I've never forgotten it; I've invoked it a number of times. The thing that struck me about Sagan was his wonder at the beauty and profundity of the universe -- he was almost childlike in his awe and belief that the endless mysteries of the universe could be unlocked by the human mind. I respected the hell out of the man. I respected the hell out of him and his wife for be able to say goodbye like that.

[papau]

18. the DU link below discusses Sagan's religion

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=17428&mesg_id=17428

[Zenlitened]

21. I generally avoid posting in Religion & Theology...

... but I did have a look, and I think your argument falls flat in a number of places.

Sagan's statement that science has taken the place of religion in some ways was not to say, it doesn't seem to me, that science and religion are simply variations of a single type.

And the hostility many religionists display toward science is just a plain fact. It happens, and it happens a lot. Of course there are exceptions, some quite significant, but the fact remains that religious fundamentalism frequently has been a very powerful force against human progress.

[mmonk]

49. Yes

Just as Hypatia was killed by a church mob, the museum in Alexandria burned by the church, and thus sending humanity in 500 years of darkness only to rediscover what had already been displayed in Alexandria, organized religion of some sort will attack science again in the future and send us back to darkness.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

23. That's a whoop-ass article you wrote, sir.

But wrong. I was going to say something, but Zenlitened said it better than I could.

[papau]

28. Zenlitened's comment "religion has harmed science in the past"isn't denied

so I thank you both for apparently agreeing with me with regard to the other points!

:-)

[Zenlitened]

30. You flatter yourself. And manage to illustrate...

... some very unscientific thinking.

I didn't bother to address your every point... therefore I agree with those points? Oy! :crazy:

Edited to add: And please don't attribute to me, in quotes, statements I did not make. Thanks.

[papau]

31. smile now - silence is not acceptance? We have to get a rules book

out!

Heck - I agreed with you comment!

:-)

and was the paraphrase inaccurate? But you are correct that the quote marks should not be used.

sorry ..

:-(


:-)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

32. Yes, we don't agree with you. Or should I say we don't agree with...

MARK G. McKIM, minister of the German Street United Baptist Church, Saint John, New Brunswick, Canada?

Tsk tsk tsk. I don't think God approves this kind of thing.

[papau]

34. Oh Commie friend - now find the other 4 sources - indeed McKim took

his lines from 2 earlier (indeed I have been trying to re-find the Phd thesis that had the earlier date just so I can play with you along these lines!

:-)

but who has the link to God to find out if this is wrong?

[Warren DeMontague]

36. With reasoning like that...

yeah, I guess you really "proved" your point.

Time for me to organize my sock drawer.

[papau]

41. :-)

:-)

[Dookus]

38. I'm not sure what you're saying....

but it sounds like you're saying plagiarism is OK if you plagiarize a plagiarist.

[papau]

42. No - but your own standards do not seem to require you to footnote

the source of any arguement - or are all your thoughts without references?

You are correct - IMO - that I should have noted the McKim source simply because it was so major - and those are my standards - so I violated my own standards.

But by board standards - get real.

Ask for a link next time.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

47. A poster DID ask for a link.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=17428&mesg_id=17431&page=

Right now, I'd say your credibility is near the "if he tells you 2+2=4 check with a calculator" bracket.

[Susang]

51. I don't give a damn if anyone asked for a link

The OP was presented as his original work. There was no implication that he was referencing anyone else's written material. That's plagiarism. The post should be removed, IMHO.

[papau]

60. Here I agree that the post was not footnoted for a major reference -

and if presented as original work would be plagiarism.

And that by not footnoting the major reference I allowed the implication of original work to exist (always a danger in googling and reporting back the results of your google).

But Susan - you noted I am sure that 6000 words were reduced to a few hundred for posting on DU. And you noted that original material was added. That the edit was given a point of view or spin not found in the major reference, and that other reference material was in the DU post. Is that not a "good"?

I agree that if I pretended to be a writer I should be put in writer's prison - but I do not so pretend. I am a "retired" actuary, mathematician, with an econ/science/financial background, and I am a person interest in religion.

I suggest ...

no - I suggest nothing

have a nice day!

:-)

[papau]

57. :-) I like the phrase! but please check "credibility" definition

:-)

[Bat Boy]

54. Dude...If I were the original author....

I'd be pissed as hell.

We all regurgitate the thoughts of others, but most of us don't cut and paste them.

[papau]

61. Love the phrase - and the bright line distinction

:-)

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

55. There are rules about this but - they have been disregarded before

infamously

[papau]

62. The rules - the DU rules - were followed

:-)

[muriel_volestrangler]

68. Rule number 4, about Copyright

Copyrights: Do not copy-and-paste entire articles onto this discussion forum. When referencing copyrighted work, post a short excerpt (not exceeding 4 paragraphs) with a link back to the original.

You made no attempt to link to the copyrighted material that you ended your post with. Instead, you presented it as your own.

[papau]

73. copy-and-paste entire articles - 6000 words - were not posted

indeed there were few if any complete paragraphs taken.

The general outline of the response and many complete or partial sentances were taken

and that should have been noted because not doing so gave the impression of original work more original than it really was.

Indeed if I ever do "blog", your higher than my current standards will be necessary.

We can discuss law and the quoting of quotes if you like.

[muriel_volestrangler]

74. No, because you'll ignore my points, like you just did

Your last 2 paragraphs come from copyrighted material, but you made no link to it. That, on its own, is an infringement of the DU rules. The fact that you changed the odd word in the earlier section does not alter that. And you altered so few that we easily found the original using Google. That's an indication that you plagiarised shamelessly.

[papau]

76. 2 paragraphs from copyrighted material - yep shamelessly -

I hate to admit it - but I am beginning to really like you!

Any other "indications" you have noticed?

:-)

Anyway thanks for letting me know you did the google search approach - I was wondering if there was a technique I did not know about. I commend you for doing the google search - I live by that system.

Although I am a bit more interested in truth - rather than who first wrote that truth.

:-)

[opiate69]

93. From the detailed rules listing

4. COPYRIGHTS

Copyright issues and Bandwidth Theft

Do not post entire copyrighted articles. If you wish to reference an article, provide a brief excerpt and include a link to the original source. Generally, excerpts should not exceed three or four paragraphs.

Do not plagiarize.
And, from dictionary.com:
pla·gia·rize ( P ) Pronunciation Key (plj-rz)
v. pla·gia·rized, pla·gia·riz·ing, pla·gia·riz·es
v. tr.
To use and pass off (the ideas or writings of another) as one's own.
To appropriate for use as one's own passages or ideas from (another).

v. intr.
To put forth as original to oneself the ideas or words of another.

You, Sir, are indeed a plagiarist.

[muriel_volestrangler]

50. The other source you stole from is David Menton

You plagiarised this essay to get your final 2 paragraphs. It's trying to prove that since science is a religion, then it shouldn't be taught in schools.

At least you left Menton's snide dig at Catholics (wow, a Christian criticising the Catholic church - good thing he's not Carl Sagan, or we'd have to plagiarise some material to write an essay saying he's anti-Catholic) out. They've had enough comments about them this week, without Menton's accusation that they (shock! horror!) might believe in evolution.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

52. Plagiarism seems abounding here

imo

[papau]

63. Excellent ! - I could not find all that I had done as I had put it all

into an untitled "notepad" and then did massive editing.

I recall I agreed with Menton's 2 paragraphs - but not with his overall essay.

How do you go about finding the source of something like that without going back to the google search, taking quotes from the 10 pages of references and this time keeping the links, and then redoing the massive edit?

I also note that google does not give the exact same 10 pages for the same search (although it is very close).

When notetaking referencing became an issue I started to go back to find out who I had used and getting the referencing and I was going to show where original words or phrasing was used - indeed I was going to play by your folks silly rules because I do feel showing links is very important.

But the task was too much for the time of night.

So was the Menton essay find a simple google search and then review everything that I had planned? - or do you have an efficient way to do these things -beyond a lexis/nexus connection with a school paying the fee?

[muriel_volestrangler]

70. Why edit it when you make it even more inaccurate by doing so?

You made false claims about what Sagan said as a result, and left out bits of the original argument. You could have just provide a link to the original - much quicker. That would also have been honest.

I find a basic respect for the work of others is a good starting point for this kind of thing. If you find that kind of thing is a 'silly rule', maybe you should look up a couple of commandments about bearing false witness, and stealing - or one about treating your neighbour as you'd treat yourself. I had got the impression you were Christian, but now I'm not at all sure.

[papau]

75. We disagree as to making false claims - there were none

I respect your respect for the commandments - and as Jesus said, we should look to the real meaning - to love God, and to love one another - as the summary of those commandments.

As to your specifics - can quotes of other sources be stolen - does a prior quoting give one "original work"? The law does not think so. Do you?

The outline of my responce was the outline of the McKim article - and should have been noted by me. But I think we agreed on this ten's of posts earlier.


peace

:-)

[muriel_volestrangler]

82. You said 'Sagan also stated that "Religion Opposes Scientific Advancement"

which was wrong. He did not make any such statement. You can disagree by pretending that you never said that, bu that would be yet another false statement, wouldn't it?

The fact that person A quotes person B in their article, and acknowledges it as a quote, does not give you the right to copy both of their phrases, and then pretend they are yours. I'd have thought anyone would have realised that. What is your religion, by the way (if any)? It's an unusual ethical system you have. Most people, religious or not, use some form of "the golden rule" - but you appear not to.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[muriel_volestrangler]

88. Go on then, prove that quote (n/t)

[Warren DeMontague]

22. To the poster who asked previously if religious people are threatened

by the existence of atheists, (particularly famous or outspoken ones) I think the need for this thread proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that some, certainly, ARE.

[papau]

29. ?? - or vice versa ??? :-)

peace

:-)

[Warren DeMontague]

33. Yeah, that's why I'm spreading a baseless rumor about how

the pope renounced religion and embraced secular humanism on his deathbead.

Give me a friggin' break.

[papau]

44. He did! WOW - By the way - where is the Sagan rumor being spread

- indeed what is the Sagan rumor.

In my posts I said he died an atheist.

Who said otherwise? Chummer?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

46. Yes. She was woefully uninformed, refused to accept truth when presented

to her, and came forth with a beyond lame retort. That's why she's pizza now.

[papau]

56. :-) Well the truth has won- Sagan died an Atheist- but papau says atheism

is a religion.

And indeed Sagan had a blind spot for noting/seeing that he was going with assertions when he discussed how re rejected the world of religious assertions.

Indeed I was unaware there was a name given to the Sagan religion until I did the google research of yesterday - but the idea that faith is involved in the total rejection of God is more than 2000 years old.

By the way yesterday was fun - but I am way too old and lacking in energy for that!

Thanks for the fun thread!

:-)

[muriel_volestrangler]

58. Are those your own words, papau

or did you copy them from someone else? I'd like to know before responding - it's always better to go directly to the organ grinder ...

[papau]

64. They are made my words by my posting them dear lady - and best to

start with the idea that all my words started with someone else - and were copied!

Now where did the organ grinder phrase come from - and what is meant by that phrase? Indeed even as a put down, it does flow well or even make sense.

And you have done better in the past! We must maintain those past high standards!

:-)

[muriel_volestrangler]

65. “Why talk to the monkey when you can talk to the organ grinder?"

is an old phrase. It means you should go to the true person in charge, rather than a front man who doesn't think for himself.

Does this mean you will be acknowledging when you use other people's articles in future?

[papau]

71. To the extent that it is a large part of what I say- of course I will - to

the extent it is a phrase or thought that I do not have a clue where it came from or that is generic - I will - as in the past - do nothing other than spit it out.

Thanks for the explanation of monkey/organ grinder - I am not a writer - nor a great reader - and that phrase is new to me.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

92. Four score and seven years ago

... oh, never mind ...

[Discord]

66. We have no "faith" requirement.

There is nothing you or anyone can do to threaten my ability to critically think. I don't have "faith" that I can, because its an absolute. I am only threatened by religion as with my broad brush disclaimer... That I have NO doubt in my mind, that the world would be an infinately better place, if religion did not exist on this planet.

[papau]

72. Do you have faith that there is no God?

:-)

[Discord]

77. Absolutely NOT!

I KNOW there is no God. The majority of the Bibles "historical" claims have either been proven incorrect, or have no substancial evidence to back up its claims.

As for the fantastical claims the Bible has made, its mythology. Nothing more. There is not a shread of evidence to validate any surpernatural events proposed to have occurred. They are as outlandish to me as many that I would hear walking thru a state facility. Both would appear to be as irrational and illogical as the other, neither having any support or evidence.
I'll stick with what I know thanks.

[papau]

85. Yet you know without proof - is that not faith?

:-)

[mondo joe]

83. Do you have FAITH there are no invisible gremlins in your basement?

Do you have FAITH rain is not caused by rain sprites?

Do you have FAITH there is no three eyed pink skinned penguin floating behind your head?

[papau]

86. That which be proven - or disproven - are "truth" based on that fact -but

that which can not be proven - or disproven - requires faith.

:-)

[OldLeftieLawyer]

90. My Jesuit teachers gave me this

"To those with faith, no proof is necessary;
to those without faith, no proof is possible."

Still, they respected my non-belief in anything having to do with their faith, which made me love them even more.

[mondo joe]

91. Please answer me: do you have FAITH that there are no

invisible gremlins in your basement?

Do you have FAITH that an invisible pink penguin isn't floating behind you?

Are these religions you have?

[Behind the Aegis]

94. no answer for you

I hate to see you languish. Check out the profile of the person you are requesting an answer from. :)

[entanglement]

39. I believe he had a very special

and deep relationship with Ann Druyan. In one of his older books ("COSMOS"), he says "In the vastness of space and the immensity of time, it is my joy to share, a planet and an epoch with Annie."

[AtTheEndOfTheDay]

40. I understand Mortimer Adler converted to Catholicism

shortly prior to death. I was saddened to read it. Surprised too.

[papau]

45. In 1983 Dr. Adler formally converted to Christianity - not a near death

moment.

In 1983 Dr. Adler formally converted to Christianity, to the denomination of his wife, who was Episcopalian. Sixteen years later, in December, 1999 in San Mateo, California where he lived and shortly thereafter passed away (d. June 28th, 2001), he was formally received into the Catholic Church

[BillZBubb]

43. Alas, poor Chummer, I knew him...

a man of little wit, and even less intelligence. He disrupted, but disrupted poorly. He is no more!

[Ladyhawk]

53. Oh please, the fundies say the same thing about Darwin...

...and that he recanted his theory of evolution on his deathbed. Fundies are certainly insecure. :(

[Discord]

69. Its that fascination with death I tell ya.

Everything about christianity is revolved around death. The fear of what might happen to them after this life. We all know this life can suck. So some people are comforted by the thought that maybe somethings better on the other side. They deny themselves the ability to enjoy life to the fullest and learn the amazing wonders of THIS life, for some unprovable promise of something better in a next. It amazing to me that people would willingly surrender their lives to a myth. Truly boggling.

[0007]

67. Thanks for posting this. I've also read Sagan's last book

and his wife's account of his death.

[minerva50]

78. In my own family, we had a rather sad "deathbed conversion"

I have two bothers who are fundies. My dad quit going to (Catholic) church in his forties, and was always a skeptic about religion. He was a super-intelligent and extremely logical engineer and was rather angry at the church for its lies and propaganda, which he'd bought into through his youth. He died a couple of years ago of metastasized cancer, multiple tumors in his brain. The poor man was not really himself for the whole year before he died. My mom knew something was not right, he was often angry and verbally abusive to her. Once they discovered the tumors we knew why, and they dosed him with steroids to shrink them a bit and give him a few weeks to settle his affairs. During this time he "repented," my brother's bishop came and gave him confession and communion and accepted him into their church. My brothers were, of course, delighted, and I held my tongue because I knew my mother, now a practicing Episcopalian, was comforted. I know that people often turn back to their childhood faith as they approach death, but the poor man was no longer himself. He had a huge tumor compressing his centers of reason and logic. It just made me sad to see them rejoice in his "return to the fold."

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

79. Just a hunch -- maybe he did that to comfort his family?

Just a hunch, of course. I could see myself doing that to avoid compounding the family's suffering with the idea I might go to Hell.

But luckily, my family is more tolerant than that, so I won't have to do anything of the sort.

[minerva50]

80. Could be, thank you, but I don't think he was that rational

I think he was operating more on emotions than thinking. I could almost see him regressing to being his momma's little boy, at times.

Edited to say, he seemed happy, at least, so we could all take comfort in that.

[Discord]

81. Sounds like he did it for the families benifit, more so than his own.

Just IMHO.

[shrike]

84. I thought that was a given

Wonder who started that rumor. I'm Catholic, but I've always respected Sagan for sticking to his guns to the last. Showed guts.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

89. A fundie troll, of course.

The come in all shapes, weights, colors, post counts, races, and sizes these days.