More Madsen: Hot off the press

[AntiFascist]

http://jamboi.dailykos.com/story/2004/12/31/175217/25

From Jamboi:

Just recieved this e-mail from Wayne Madsen:
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 17:27:11 EST

Subject: End of Year Update on Investigation

To: (JamBoi)

Here is an update of where the investigation is heading -- many strings must be tied together but a clearer picture of how this Election Fraud 04 was done is beginning to emerge. The follow the money trail is leading to some interesting places.

<snip>

I am getting great support from a number of people inside and outside the government who believe this group must be "outed" and dealt with as any other dangerous cult would be. These are not Jim Jones' followers or Marshall Applewhite's Heavens' Gate people we're talking about. These Fellowship eople want to take us all with them. The earthquake and tsunami in the Indian Ocean is just what these people are waiting for -- the more death and destruction the better as far as they are concerned. I suggest we all work together and not against one another to expose these people. Those who hide behind the veil of "non-partisanship" should just keep quiet if they are not going to join the effort. We all have enough to do without incessant carping from those who believe it is wiser to sit on the sidelines. A re-read of William Shirer's "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" may be in order for those who believe neutrality and non-partisanship is the better course. As the son of a WW II refugee from the Nazis, I can tell you that neutrality in times such as these just does not work and is definitely not advised.

Wayne Madsen

31 Dec 04
<end>

and on a related note:

http://jbie.blogspot.com/2004/12/is-du-sick-of-cult-probing-dems.html

[flpeach]

1. Excellent Find . . .

Thank you for posting this, very very interesting!! I think Votergate may be a scandal in Bush's future . . . .

[lthuedk]

17. Wishy washy describes the DU. What we need now-

is fucking spine. The target is fascism. Not realizing what the target is, is a function of denial: one of the defining characteristics of the Democratic Party. Another is courage. Fascism isn't going to leave peacefully.

Get it? Now, start working towards it's overthrow, party or not.

[nashville_brook]

58. yeah, this post is rich with info!

we've lost an important voice here! jamboi/masden are/were really connecting dots and following the money. i can't understand the controversy. he was tombstoned for posting too much? too much what? leads? since he's been gone the board has turned into a koffee klatch. we're losing resources. it's depressing. makes me regret being a donor.

[Pam-Moby]

2. Thanks for sharing. .....

Madsen is great

[NVMojo]

3. ....and this is real ...we'd better start dummying up...

[IndyOp]

4. Good information about Datamaxx in Ohio! (n/t)

[dlaliberte]

12. Datamaxx is not needed to suppress vote in Ohio

I don't quite follow the Datamaxx connection. Certainly they could have data on where the democrats are in Ohio, but Blackwell should also have that data already, given records of previous elections. I see no need to involve Datamaxx for that.

Now the purging of selected voters from registration based on an assumption of criminal activity, or even more interesting, the selection of registered voters who are not likely to vote (maybe because they have moved or died) for the purpose of using their votes.... that would be something I could see requiring the services of a company like Datamaxx.

[fooj]

5. thanks for the update!

I was wondering what happened to Madsen-now I know!!!:thumbsup:

WHAT ARE THEY HIDING?????:think:

[FULL_METAL_HAT]

6. Missing Jamboi... Wish there was a way to reinstate him! n/t

[clydefrand]

7. What happened to Jamboi?

[TexasChick]

8. I can't remember the reason, but he was tombstoned, I think. n/t

[dlaliberte]

9. Jamboi worked too hard

I recall the reason Jamboi was tombstoned was that he was caught posting at all hours of the day, with only a few breaks of a couple hours now and then. Shame shame...

Here I am writing about a poster, which is supposed to be forbidden. But, dear moderator, we have no recourse. The meta-level system for discussing policy is FUBAR because it forces us to talk one-on-one with administrators, never as a group. Tombstoning has been abused, it appears, and there is no visible due process.

Madsen's work is a very important part of this democratic underground movement, and Jamboi was doing a valuable service for us of keeping in contact with him and informing us about what is new. One might tend to distrust such a single point of contact, and I would actually rather be hearing from a few more such people. But for Madsen at least, he risks his safety more by being in contact with more people.

[Darkhawk32]

10. Tombstoned for posting too much???

That doesn't make sense. :shrug:

[burn the bush]

14. I probably post at all hours of the day and night too

I'm at the computer all day, all night. Can't function to do anything else because of all this shit going on in the gov. I take care of my mom who has alzheimers and a mentally retarded brother who oddly enough prefer to stay up nights too. (they did that before they came to live with me) I check all the sites and come back to du constantly. I go to bed for a couple of hours up to 6 but often only 2. but anytime i wake up, I come back in here and check DU for news. I don't know what my posting hours have been but I definately don't have an awake and asleep schedule.
As for Madsen, I think he needs to copy all of his evidence and send it to many many safe places to be held in case he ....well suicides. Please be careful Wayne.

[nashville_brook]

16. what's the idea behind tombstoning for too many posts?

is there a finite amount of post-age?

[AntiFascist]

37. As someone wise has pointed out....

if a DU poster is rubbing you the wrong way or you don't like their behaviors (like posting too much) then its easy enough to just put them on your ignore list. You don't have hit the Alert button and have them tombstoned.

[New Earth]

21. honestly he was a little wierd with the Madsen stuff

but i post almost all hours of the day :shrug: cept for now cuzi have a job, so not as much....but esp. on the weekends i am on here all hours of the nite till i pass out :shrug:

oh well

[rdmccur]

25. How was he weird?

[New Earth]

27. i dont know

his posts were usually positive, but he was just a little to adamant on the Madsen articles, in my opinion.

[ebayfool]

34. Faye - Wasn't God_bush_n_cheney looking for info on Datamaxx ...

somewhere in here yesterday? I thought I might have seen you in the thread, do you remember anything @ it? I'll search the threads to see if I can find it, maybe this might tie in?

[Razorback_Democrat]

56. Yes he was a few days ago n/t

[leanin_green]

70. Funny thing is. . .

I'm just so happening to be reading the book by David Brock; "BLINDED BY THE RIGHT," and damned if those same names that Madsen has used don't turn up with someone who was part of "the movement." That is, Coors, Moon(who ones the Washington Times where David Brock worked), and a whole lot of shadier characters too lengthy to go into here. I don't know, ya'll, after exhausting every other possibility, the one remaining, no matter how ridiculous, is usually true.

[Quakerfriend]

39. Thanks AntiFascist

for keeping us up-to-date. Regards to Jamboi. We would all love to see him reinstated. He was a marvelous voice for democracy despite being a little frenetic.

Haven't seen KingoftheJungle in several days.:hi:

[AntiFascist]

52. Thank you Quakerfriend.....

and Happy New Year! Jamboi really deserves all the credit for staying in contact with Madsen and posting his communications on DailyKos. He desparately misses being at DU. Messages posted to the Ask the Administrators forum may help in this regard. As I mentioned in a previous post, if anyone is offended by excessive posting, they can always put the offender on their Ignore list.

[salin]

43. It couldn't possibly be...

if one never stops posting... that maybe there is more than one doing the posting? That maybe there is something else going on? ... just seemed like perhaps a counter-read might be interesting at this point.

Per Madsen - any way of reading his work directly?

[AntiFascist]

11. Speaking of "Outing the Fellowship"......

Has anyone heard from KingoftheJungle lately? I hate sitting on top of information that should be made public, apparently.

[Igel]

13. Has anyone here actually read a few 1000 pages of

Dominionist literature?

[nashville_brook]

15. i've read some, and worked within a company run by dominionists

why?

[Igel]

29. When I read a lot of their stuff a while

back it was incompatible with the idea of a forced take-over; this was 1991 and before. They believed they would eventually have dominion, but it would come through God turning people to his way (which, of course, was identical to theirs). This was Rushdoony's and North's take on it. Theocracy, but one accepted by the people--with anything else being insufficient.

When did they make the change to forcible imposition of a theocracy?

[Zhade]

30. Maybe when they realized people aren't buying their mythical utopia?

Maybe Peak Oil had a hand in the decision as well.

[Igel]

32. Maybe.

But for many people, fundies are simply another dehumanized 'the Other', and nothing is beneath them.

[Eye_on_prize]

87. Mythical Utopia? or Welcome to the Apocalypse?

Don't these fanatics believe they'll be 'raptured' as the 'righteous ones'? which magically turns everyone else (that's us folks) into "evil-doers", as they pathologically conjure projections onto some 'evil out there' (Commies, Libs, Dems, gays, etc.), short-circuiting any possibility for self-reflection or critical thought.

I checked out your lucid dreaming site. Cool. Do you know about Paul Levy's work? He's a Buddhist practitioner and life long scholar of CJung, who's building on Jung's work related to understanding our waking experiences as a dream. He's writen some interesting stuff on *. If you're interested see:
http://www.awakeninthedream.com
I especially recommend "It's time to wake up!" one, his most recent.

[nashville_brook]

55. igil -- what's your take on this?

isn't any theocracy imposed forcibly on non-believers?

[Igel]

63. Can be. Usually is.

But Dominionist literature (at least what they published) as of 1991 rejected such a thing as evil. This is a passive (by humans) utopian vision; in their worldview (as of 1991) God'll do it, sort of a leavening action, and if it comes from them, it's a version of hell. They're--er, were, at least--post-Millennialist (i.e., Christ returns after a 1000 years of people accepting him). I'm not sure what they said about the minority that reject Christ; I'm not even sure they allowed such a thing would be possible (we're not necessarily talking reality here), but it's been a while.

One thing that struck me deeply at the time was a moderate environmentalist worldview: Dominion over the earth didn't imply destruction, but reasoned, sustainable use, making sure that if you owned land that your great-great-grandkids would be able to use it in the same way.

I've read the various anti-Dominionist sites, but most of what they cite can be taken two ways, it's a question of being internally consistent. I have no idea what they've done for the last 13 years or so. I was asked to precis a lot of their writings, did so, and that was that. Went off to grad school, and haven't looked back.

[leanin_green]

71. Perhaps you could use some more reading material.

This is a pretty interesting site

http://www.yuricareport.com

Lots of info on Dominionist theory.

[Al-CIAda]

18. "The Rise of Dominionism" -must see

"The Rise of Dominionism"
recorded October 11, 2004, 44 minutes

Play the Real Video version. Works best on faster connections. Dialup users can try the audio only version below.

Play the (Windows) WMV Video version, or right-click here, and select "Save Target As" to save the file if you are not set up to stream it. This is a full motion, but low resolution video for 256Kbps or faster connections.

View the QuickTime Video version, or right-click here, and select "Save Target As" to save the file if you are not set up to stream it.

(Check the TheocracyWatch Materials page to get a copy of this video on DVD.)


"The Rise of Dominionism"
recorded October 6, 2004, 41 minutes
http://www.theocracywatch.org/audio-video.htm

--------

Thank you for keeping us updated on Madsen!

[Donailin]

24. Funny, I just posted the same website. .

I found it when researching this painting, it was linked somewhere along the way. . http://www.americanfundamentalists.com/

[Donailin]

23. I've read a few dozen from this site:

http://www.theocracywatch.org/

pretty comprehensive, pretty scary.

[The Judged]

19. Dominionists are the tools of the trade for the NeoCons.

NeoCons gave the Dominionists their political voice and will put them in their place when they are finished using them, or are they already in their place?

NeoCons have a special relationship with the US Military and the modern day global pirates, or are they the global pirates and do they control the US Military?

They seem to be running the show, and to have inspired the Dominionists to assume power, or have they gotten the moral majority to make a deal with the devil that allows for ultimate Dominion at the hands of the NeoCons, which is more Biblically correct than recent history in their opinions?

Perhaps the NeoCons, global pirates, and the US Military believe that they will be better able to perpetuate their reign via directives to the Dominionists who will be allowed to run day to day global politics?

This will enable them to remain stealth and above the radar, above the corrupt Church which is based on God's good word and the Bible and to which all others will be accountable, just as in centuries past.

[genieroze]

26. These people need to be taken down a few notches. eom

[BamaBecky]

20. Very interesting! Now I want to know more about these folks! n/t

[rdmccur]

22. Madsen is working with Arnebeck

I believe. Madsen talks about 'Opus Dei'
or the Council for National Policy (CNP)
in a letter he purportedly sent them. Blackwell may have connections to that organization? Here is an excerpt from the letter with a list of known members:

"----------------------------------------------

LIST OF MEMBERS IN COUNCIL OF NATIONAL POLICY

----------------------------------------------
Rich DeVos was past president as well as tim and Pat!
How can Ankerberg justify being in a group headed by 33rd Degree Freemason Rich DeVos!!!!!!

Ahmanson, Howard
Alby, Barbara
Aldrich, Gary
Ally, Arthur
Allison, Daniel
Anderson, Thomas
Andrews, John
Angell, Al
Ankerberg, John
Ardizzone, Kristen
Armey, Richard
Armstrong, Thomas
Atsinger, Edward
Baehr, Theodore
Bahakel, Cy
Baker, Dick
Balderson, Terry
Ball, William
Batchelder, William
Bauer, Gary
Beckett, John
Behnke, Melvin
Belk, John
Bell, Mariam
Berryman, Ray
Bigham, Paul
Bird, Wendell
Blackwell, Morton
Blinn, James
Blocker, Michael
Bolan, Thomas
Bosgra, T.J.
Bott, Rich
Bott, Richard
Bozell, Brent
Breese, David
Bright, William
Brinson, Alan
Broadhead, Paul
Bronson, Earle
Brown, Floyd
Bull, Benjamin
Bullington, Daniel
Burkett, Larry
Burress, Pamela
Burton, Dan
Butler, Sandra
Byne, James
Callaway, Howard
Campbell, Kenneth
Carl, William
Carriker, Charles
Caruth, W.W.
Ceverha, Bill
Chalfant, John
Cies, Margaret
Cline, Nancy
Clymer, James
Condon, Guy
Cone, Robert
Cook, Peter
Cooper, Henry
Coors, Darden
Coors, Holland
Coors, Jeffrey
Copeland, David
Creedon, William
Cresanta, Judy
Cribb, Kenneth
Cross, Raymond
Crotty, Daniel
Csorba, Les
Czirr, James
Dacus, Brad
Danielson, Beverly
Dannemeyer, William
Davis, Cullen
Davis, Jean
Dawkins, Maurice
Deaton, Dorsey
DeLay, Tom
Denman, Diana
Denton, James
DeVos, Rich
DeVos, Richard
Dickey, Catharine
Dingman, Dick
Dobson, James
Dodd, John
Doggett, John
Donnelly, Elaine
Doolittle, John
Dornan, Robert
Drexel, Ann
Drexel, Gregory
DuPont, Pierre
Dugan, Robert
Duggan, Daniel
Dunham, Richard
Dupuy, Kathy
Durant, Clark
Dye, Alan
Eaton, Lee
Eller, Karl
Ellis, Tom
Ensminger, Ronald
Epperson, Kristy
Epperson, Stuart
Epperson, Stuart Jr.
Etchison, Michael
Faircloth, Lauch
Faison, Mollie
Falwell, Jerry
Farah, Joseph
Farris, Michael
Feldtman, Robert
Feulner, Edwin
Fields, William
Fischer, Robert
Flaherty, Peter
Flowers, Langdon
Folkers, Donald
Ford, Richard
Forsythe, Clark
Foy, Peter
Frankland, Herman
Frazier, Ann
Freeman, Kevin
Freeny, Tracy
Friess, Foster
Frizzell, Ben
Fuller, Corinne
Gardner, Frank
Garvey, Willard
Gentry, Kevin
Glessner, Thomas
Godwin, Ronald
Goodrick, Stephen
Gottlieb, Alan
Grampsas, Anthony
Grant, Robert
Grant, William
Guffey, Hal
Gustafson, Darryl
Haden, Ben
Hakola, Edith
Hale, Billy
Haley, Rosalind
Halvorssen, Thor
Hanicke, Elizabeth
Hanna, Colin
Hansen, Nancy
Hardage, Sam
Hardman, Sara
Hart, Benjamin
Hasson, Seamus
Hawkins, Preston
Hayes, Karen
Hayne, Peck
Haynes, Ray
Headrick, Richard
Hearne, Donna
Heath, Charles
Helms, Jesse
Helton, Harry
Hendrix, Richard
Herbster, Carl
Herbster, Matthew
Hess, Thomas
Hill, James
Hinz, Roland
Hodel, Donald
Hodgman, Thomas
Hofmeister, Gary
Hogan, Neal
Hueter, Ernest
Hughes, Dudley
Hunt, Mary
Hunt, Nelson
Hurme, William
Irby, Charles
Irvine, Reed
Istook, Ernest
Jackson, Peb
Jacobson, James
Jaeb, Lorena
Jaffe, Laurie
James, Kay
Jarmin, Gary
Jarvis, Charles
Jenkins, James
Jenkins, Margaret
Jenkins, Woody
Jones, Bob
Jordan, Daniel
Kaloogian, Howard
Keating-Edh, Barbara
Keene, David
Kemp, Jack
Kennedy, D. James
Keyes, Alan
Kimble, Richard
Kingsley, Dora
Kincaid, Cliff
Kirk, Jerry
Klayman, Larry
Kyl, Jon
LaHaye, Beverly
LaHaye, Lee
LaHaye, Tim
Lane, David
Larson, Reed
Ledzinski, Jerome
LeFever, Tim
Lenczowski, John
Lester, Andrew
Levin, Mark
Lewis, Keet
Lifschultz, Jay
Linton, David
Long, Christopher
Lott, Trent
Lozick, Edward
Mabon, Lon
Maclellan, Scott
MacLeod, Laurel Ann
Maddoux, Mark
Maddoux, Marlin
Magruder, Marion
Magruder, Shannon
Malenick, Carolyn
Marshall, Peter
Marshner, Connie
Martin, James
Mason, Christopher
Mason, Richard
Matrisciana, Pat
McAlvany, Donald
McAteer, Ed
McCabe, Thomas
McCarthy, Richard
McClellan, Bob
McClelland, Norman
McConville, Timothy
McCotter, James
McCotter, Liz
McCotter, Shannon
McCoy, Tidal
McDonald, Mrs. Larry
McEwen, Bob
McGuigan, Patrick
McKim, Ken
McLittle, Emanuel
Meese, Dana
Meese, Edwin
Messing, Andy
Metrahi, Peter
Meyer, Eugene
Miller, James
Miller, Stephen
Mills, Andrew
Minnery, Tom
Missler, Charles
Mix, Mark
Moffitt, Terry
Monteith, Barbara
Monteith, Stanley
Montgomery, Michael
Montini, Mark
Mooney, Pat
Moore, Raymond
Moore, Sam
Moorman, Thomas
Morris, Henry
Morris, Allen
Motley, Duane
Mounger, William
Mount, Jay
Mullin, Martha
Muskett, Rob
Nash, Richard
Neill, Richard
Nickles, Don
Noble, Edward
Noebel, David
Nolan, Pat
Norquist, Grover
North, Gary
North, Oliver
O'Neal, B.F.
O'Neill, George
Oakes, Stanley
Oates, Marvin
Oates, Philip
Olsen, Phillip
Olson, William
Oster, Merrill
Owens, Eric
Parker, Jay
Parker, Thomas
Parro, Colleen
Pate, Carmen
Patterson, Paige
Patterson, Tom
Pederson, Patrice
Perkins, Tony
Phillips, Brad
Phillips, Howard
Phillips, Thomas
Poland, Larry
Pope, John
Powers, Jim
Pratt, Lawrence
Pressler, Paul
Pressler, Paul IV
Price, James
Prince, Elsa
Privette, Coy
Pullen, Penny
Reed, Ralph
Reynolds, Bradford
Richardson, H.L.
Richey, Daniel
Riddle, Richard
Ridenour, Elizabeth
Ridley, Stephen
Rigell, Isom
Riner, Tom
Robertson, Pat
Robinson, Ronald
Rohrbough, Gregory
Rosenberger, Ron
Rushdoony, R.J.
Sanford, Mark
Saracino, William
Scanlon, Terrence
Scarborough, Rick
Schatz, Rick
Scheideman, Blaine
Schlafly, Phyllis
Schuele, Mrs. Carl
Schultheis, David
Scott, Otto
Scribante, John
Scribante, Lynda
Sears, Alan
Seeley, Ronald
Segermark, Howard
Sekulow, Jay
Sennholz, Hans
SerVaas, Beurt
Shadegg, John
Shakespeare, Frank
Sharpe, Shelby
Shealy, Dal
Shipe, Rich
Shoff, Richard
Showers, Robert
Siemens, Abe
Siemens, Terry
Simons, Richard
Singlaub, John
Sirico, Robert
Skousen, Mark
Smith, Alice
Smith, Baker
Smith, Eunie
Smith, Jim
Smith, Lowell
Smith, Malcolm
Smith, Michael
Snyder, Geraldine
Snyder, Jay
Spence, Mike
Spivy, LaNeil
Squires, Ted
St. Martin, Darla
Stallings, Kyle
Stavarz, Nick
Staver, Mathew
Stevens, Allen
Stewart, Donald
Stockman, Steve
Stormer, John
Stover, Robert
Strack, Jay
Strake, George
Strassner, David
Strickler, JoAnn
Sullivan, Kathleen
Sumner, Gordon
Swim, Gaylord
Tambs, Lewis
Taylor, Helen
Taylor, Jim
Taylor, Stacy
Teepell, Timothy
Thompson, Kristine
Thompson, Tommy
Thornton, James
Tierney, Bill
Titus, Herbert
Trueman, Patrick
Twardowski, Timothy
Uhlmann, John
Uribe, George
Utley, Jon
Valentine, Harry
Van Arsdale, Corbin
Vazsonyi, Balint
Viguerie, Richard
Vollmer, Christine
Vucanovich, Barbara
Wakefield, Gray
Warner, Lucien
Weaver, Phyllis
Webb, Jack
Weiner, Bob
Welch, Craig
Westberg-Warren, Judi
Weyrich, Diana
Weyrich, Paul
Wheat, Marie
Wheeler, Jack
White, Somers
Whiteford, Ronald
Whitehead, John
Whittlesey, Faith
Wildmon, Donald
Wildmon, Timothy
Williams, Alvin
Williams, Arthur
Willke, John
Wilson, Chris
Wirthlin, Richard
Witwer, George
Wood, Robert
Woodall, Jim
Woodfill, Jared
Young, Carl
Young, Charles
Zanotti, David
Zentara, Maria

To verify list of members:

http://www.berkshire.net/~ifas/cnp/index.html

http://www-2.realaudio.com/webactive/features/censored.html “

You read correctly, Morton Blackwell is a member. So is all sorts of other familiar names that are now having their relative kin run Ohio. Now while the vote rigging scam or unfair elections is not unique, nor exclusive to Ohio, a number of bad eggs and different well known fringe members created the mess that the American citizens are now faced with there today in that state. "

Is Ken related to Morton?

[rdmccur]

31. Here's something on Morton

Blackwell: (Haven't seen anything to suggest kinship to Ken)

"Morton C. Blackwell has served (circa 2000) as Treasurer of the Free Congress Foundation.

According to one biographical sketch of Blackwell (http://watch.pair.com/database.html),

Blackwell is "Executive director, Council for National Policy; founder and president, the Morton Blackwell Leadership Institute, a foundation which trains youg people for youth leadership; founder and chairman, Conservative Leadership PAC; Republican National Committeeman from Virginia; treasurer, Reagan Mumni Association; youngest delegate to Barry Goldwater RNC in 1964; alternative delegate for Reagan in 1968 and 1976 and a delegate in 1980; former special assistant to President Ronald Reagan on the White House staff; former staff member, Senate Republican Policy Committee; serves on the Republican National Convention's Standing Committee on Rules; former policy director, U.S. Senator Gordon J. Humphrey; overseer, 1980 Youth for Reagan effort; former editor, The NewRight Report; former contributing editor, Conservative Digest. Formerly with The Viguerie Company. Spouse: Helen R. Blackwell, Virginia state chairman, Eagle Forum; chairman, Voting Integrity Project; former member, State Central Committee, Republican Party of Virginia.

"With Paul M. Weyrich and Richard Viguerie, Blackwell met with Jerry Falwell to found the Moral Majority. 'Finally, on the verge of realizing his right-wing utopia, Weyrich harvested what his friend Morton Blackwell termed the greatest track of virgin timber on the political landscape: evangelicals. Out there is what you might call a moral majority, he told Jerry Falwell in Lynchburg, Pennsylvania, in 1979. That's it, Falwell exclaimed. That's the name of the organization.'

"Morton Blackwell works with Plinio de Correa de Olivier's Tradition, Family & Property and endorsed Olivier's book, Nobility & Analagous Traditional Elites, on the necessity of restoring traditional Nobility & Elites to rule the world. In the Forward Blackwell wrote: 'One does not have to accept Papal infallibility to appreciate a case persuasively made, using theological, moral, and prudential arguments. This book will convince many readers, whatever their faith, that good elites are legitimate, desirable and, yes, necessary.' The Secret Story of a Cult Apologist features a picture of Paul Weyrich and Morton Blackwell with the American head of TFP, which is the parent organization of CESNUR, the cult apology network for cults such as Scientology."

[regularjoe]

38. DeVos is also a co-founder of Amway. n/t

[eowyn_of_rohan]

82. His son's wife, Betsy, is the chair of the Michigan GOP -nt

[bunny planet]

42. I heard somewhere that Scalia was in Opus Dei and that his father was

an out and out member of the fascist party back in Italy, and perhaps imported his ideas to America.

[Al-CIAda]

44. Yes, Scalia is also discussed in this piece-

"The Rise of Dominionism"
recorded October 6, 2004, 41 minutes
http://www.theocracywatch.org/audio-video.htm

[KerryOn]

28. "The Crazies"

When I saw this list of names in the article: Feeney, Ashcroft, DeLay, Bush (Dubya and Jeb), Cheney, ...

It reminded me of a speaker I heard this past summer, that referred to some of these same people as "The Crazies". Some of you may find it interesting.

Snip-it:

RAY MCGOVERN: I was one of the briefers who prepared the President’s daily brief and delivered it and briefed people one on one with the senior officials downtown.

AMY GOODMAN:Now one of the things we are talking about a lot and seeing a lot is that the same people that were there during the Reagan-Bush years and even before, the Wolfowitzes the Rumsfelds, Cheneys were there then. What was George Bush’s view of these people then?

RAY MCGOVERN: Well, you know it’s really interesting. When we saw these people coming back in town, all of us said who were around in those days said, oh my god, ‘the crazies’ are back – ‘the crazies’ – that’s how we referred to these people.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4736.htm

[IndyPriest]

33. I got a packet of stuff on Opus Dei from a DU poster recently

Can't remember his/her handle at the moment, and haven't seem him/her since. (Hmmm....) (Probably too much New Year's cheer...) But s/he is quite sure that there's a whole nest of this RW stuff out there, including the secretive Opus Dei, to which many if not all of the OH players -- Blackwell, et al -- supposedly belong. It was a little weird reading through it. But it did make me wonder: what the hell's going on in this country, anyway?

[jazzjunkysue]

35. Holy Friggin' Shit.

Ok. If only half of this is true, it's scary as hell. And, you know, with all I've read about the neo-con s.o.b's, it's real easy to believe. Next time you want to kill an hour, go to a bookstore and thumb through Richard Clark's Against All Enemies. It's all there. Also, look at Imperial Designs by Gary Dorrien. Holy crap, does this all fit together.

Right now on CNN man of the year, they're talking about how Bush does nothing we expect a president to do. This new Dominion thing sure explains that, don't it? That's why up is down, down is up, clean is polluted, free is enslaved, reform is destruction. God, it all makes sense. It really does.

[AntiFascist]

36. Very S & C nt

[FULL_METAL_HAT]

40. How the Theocons have pulled it off

(I posted as before but its very insightful I think)
From: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x216096

When I learned how the theo-cons managed to take over the "Republican polity*", it made so much sense! Over the last 20+ years they basically BUM-RUSHED local Republican meetings by going en-masse, asking lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of questions, to the point where, ahem, "real Republicans" (I CAN"T BELIEVE I JUST SAID THAT!!** :)) would GET TIRED AND GO HOME, feeling bored and bewildered by these new members with their million stupid questions. Enough to slowly, month-by-month, participate less and less... All the while the theo-cons are VOTING THEMSELVES IN to all these local offices! Local Dog Catcher then steps up and wins Regional Dog Catcher who then steps up and wins State Dog Catcher who then steps up and wins (EGAD!) FUCKING PRESIDENT DOG CATCHER.

You see how that works??

THEY BORED THE REAL REPUBLICANS AWAY!

Devious... god damned robots I say.

Anyhoo, *&co. KNOW their robots, like Asimov's, have one pesky "programming law" that if triggered will FTITA:

DON'T GET CAUGHT ! ! !

You break that one and their 1st Law of Theobotics runs this code in their brain:

1. "Jesus _wouldn't_ get caught I mean, do anything evil;
   
2. these guys are, thus, NOT like Jesus,
   
3. therefore they must be like Satan, therefore
   
4. THEY MUST BE DESTROYED"

Glory faith and begora, you gotta love FAITH (aka "follow the programming laws!") -- and nothing like a little black propaganda being turned on it's creators.

If, behind closed doors on Jan6, there is an unveiling of SERIOUS hardcore evidence being kept secret from us, and of course the "enemy", the even the Theo-cons will turn on them.

In fact, with the right "triple-x" evidence, it could be like a "nuclear bomb", wiping-out/purge of "the evil doers".

That'd be a sight for sore eyes!

I think "Stealthy Team Kerry" has got these bastards boxed in finally.

It is is my hope their SEa Air Land team has alllll the bases covered for their D-Day landing on Jan 6.

THIS IS NOT A DRILL -- Kerry knows it.

All the best,
{B^)
FULL_METAL_HAT

---

* Polity is such a perfect word I have to share!
NOUN: Inflected forms: pl. pol·i·ties
1. The form of government of a nation, state, church, or organization. 2. An organized society, such as a nation, having a specific form of government: “His alien philosophy found no roots in the American polity” (New York Times).

BTW, I am already trying to "reclaim" the word "Republican". As we all know if you searched for another unifying characteristic, all of them would probably be classified as psychologically needy in a way that allows them to "look the other way" at bullshit going on around them -- it's not their fault they bought in hook-line-and-sinker to the neo-con's man-boy and his clubhouse pals -- they're the people who buy the shitty used cars! Pity over hate is my creed. Though a little hate will be needed on Jan 6, to "get their attention".

[lonestarnot]

41. Been meaning to buy copy Clark's book...Know we are in Alice's Wonderland

[SharonRB]

45. I read it last spring

It's a great read and very scary. No wonder Bush shut him out.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

83. up is down, night is day....

The primitive simplicity of their minds renders them more easy victims of a big lie than a small one, because they themselves often tell little lies but would be ashamed to tell big ones. Such a form of lying would never enter their heads. They would never credit others with the possibility of such great impudence as the complete reversal of facts.
-- Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf

[SharonRB]

46. If even half of this is true, it's really scary

I've been very slow to believe everything Madsen says, but this is very, very scary if any of it is true. All of those suicides and other deaths can't possibly be coincidental -- there are too many of them. Do we know for sure that all of the suicides really were suicides?

All of this Opus Dei talk in the later posts sounds like "Angels and Demons," Brown's book written before "The DaVinci Code." It's almost surreal reading this as reality instead of in a novel. We may be dealing with something way beyond election fraud, but how do we ever prove it if it's true? I'm still taking it with a grain of salt, but there's probably at least some truth here.

[gdub]

47. This is such crap. Madsen is a total fraud.

Can anyone else read this without laughing?

My golden retriever was hit by a car when I was 10. Apparently, he knew too much about the Bushes.

[femme.democratique]

48. Gdub, methinks you are merely blind...or just trying to spread doubt here.

Sorry, none of the events Madsen writes of are accidents. Our government is guilty of doing many horrendous things, and yes conspiracies do exist.

[gdub]

54. Indeed, conspiracies do exist

However, someone as sloppy and undisciplined in their writing and logic as Wayne Madsen is unlikely to uncover them.

Most importantly, in my opinion, his transparent lack of crediblity makes us all look like nuts and undercuts the entire effort to lend the fraud investigation credibility.

I would suggest that Wayne Madsen himself is a very valuable tool for the Bushes. By making everyone involved in the investigation look wild-eyed and kooky, he is certainly serving them well.

I find your suggestion that I am spreading doubt amusing but misplaced. By supporting Madsen with such unquestioning zeal, you seem to me to be the bigger potential Bushie.

[spooked911]

62. I tend to agree. Madsen seems to spout disinfo very easily

I think Madsen is a tool-- he is being used.

[nashville_brook]

69. got any links to Madsen disinfo?

it would make this argument stronger.

[KingoftheJungle]

51. You're tripping girlfriend

Madsen might enjoy going out on a limb with the information he reports occasionally, but he is no fraud and is working very diligently with a group of investigators that are turning more dirt than you know. Things are progressing at a fairly rapid pace now and more and more links keep popping up so we always seem to be on the edge of releasing all the data when, all of a sudden, someone finds another link and then its back to google looking for more and more...

[AntiFascist]

53. Hi KingoftheJungle....

How are you doing? Do you have an ETA for any more info. on the Fellowship stuff?

[lonestarnot]

65. And Nixon knew about the tapes

Tin soldiers and Nixon's comin'.
We're finally on our own.
This summer I hear the drummin'.
Four dead in Ohio.

Gotta get down to it.
Soldiers are gunning us down.
Should have been done long ago.
What if you knew her and
Found her dead on the ground?
How can you run when you know?

Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na.
Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na.
Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na.
Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na.

Gotta get down to it.
Soldiers are cutting us down.
Should have been done long ago.
What if you knew her and
Found her dead on the ground?
How can you run when you know?

Tin soldiers and Nixon's comin'.
We're finally on our own.
This summer I hear the drummin'.
Four dead in Ohio.
Four dead in Ohio.
Four dead in Ohio.
Four dead in Ohio.
Four dead in Ohio.
Four dead in Ohio.
Four dead in Ohio.
Four dead in Ohio.
Four dead in Ohio.

[corbett]

49. "Dangerous Cult"? Excellent Phrase!

This piece truly is a superb find and can be a nice icebreaker for pursuing moderate Republicans who might be open to challenging the election, such as Lugar and McCain.

[gdub]

57. Hah, that's a good one

I am a moderate Republican and this kind of junk psuedo-journalism is exactly the sort of stuff that makes the mainstream cringe at this issue.

Right, spam Congresspeople with Madsen dreck--just what we need!

[Alizaryn]

60. It is a well documented organization.

Here's one link FYI.

http://www.toobeautiful.org/lat_020927.html

[redacted]

61. gdub: Cornell University isn't laughing

How do you explain away that what Madsen says about the Fellowship agrees with what the scholars at Cornell point out in their video here?

http://www.theocracywatch.org/audio-video.htm

You can't GET much more mainstream than the Ivy League, and this doesn't exactly look like "junk pseudo-journalism."

Go ahead, gdub. Impress us with your justification. Try to cite some specifics and stay away from personal attacks. If you're like most Freepers, that level of rhetoric will be quite a challenge for you.

[gdub]

64. In response

First, how is it a personal attack to call a "fraud" someone who holds themselves out as a journalist when one suspects their motives and the veracity of their reporting?

I am quite serious. My point is that he is more damaging to the fraud investigation than any other single person who seems to be involved in all this. Of course, that is my opinion. Although, perhaps like Madsen, I could suggest that I have shadowy "sources" that prove he is a poor journalist. Fortunately, that's not really necessary since that fact is clear on the face of things.

I guess you may take issue with the fact that fraud requires intent, in journalism as elsewhere. I might concede that, since from Madsen's writing it is unclear whether he has any intent at all. His writing is that bad. I will happily donate a copy of Strunk & White to Wayne if someone can provide his address.

Generally, when journalists, novelists, lawyers write--basically anyone who makes their living communicating--the writer will use the active voice, not the passive voice. The main goal of using the active voice is to have a subject, a verb and a predicate that clearly communicate who is doing what to whom. When a writer uses the passive voice as liberally as Mr. Madsen, the effect is discrediting because the writer is not communicating the fundamental facts in a way that is intended to make the reader understand the who, what, when, where and why.

If someone holds themselves out as journalist, these basic skills--the ability to write clearly--are essential to the task. Particularly, when one is engaged "investigative journalism," basic writing skills would seem a requisite part of the craft and the charge.

For example, please enlighten me as to how a series of suicides are connected to the Dominion and where the facts are that make the connection? If Mr. Madsen is correct, and he is speaking the truth, why is he still alive?

Perhaps the Republican theocracy has decided that Madsen is such a crappy writer that even though he has nailed the truth to the proverbial church door, his delivery is so poor that he serves their cause better alive by discrediting the opposition and by making everyone look like a kook who challenges their power.

Again, since you are such an ardent supporter of his undisciplined journalism, I would counter that perhaps you too are part of the black psy ops team led by Mr. Madsen that has infiltrated DU with the express purpose of discrediting the entire fraud investigation.

Prove you aren't.

[AntiFascist]

72. There are 2 areas that deserve much more investigation:

1.) Do "Dominionists" have so much power in Washington D.C. that they are successfully and radically in the process of changing the nature of our government? In other words, are they paving the way for a worldwide "dominion" under the rule of "God"'s law? I used to ignore this as only a crazy or fringe following, until I realized how much power these people have in all 3 major religions. 9/11 should have woken us up to the seriousness of the following of Osama bin Laden in Islamic nations. Radical Zionists are fighting for control in Israel and may have more power and control in Washington than anyone cares to admit. Christian dominionists are radically changing the nature of Christianity to the extent of reversing the basic message of Christ altogether. Look at some of the "secret" organizations which hide under the cover of appearing Christian, yet historically allow those with power to maintain their power under the guise of the "divine right of kings."

2.) Does the fact that there are strong ties between the Religious Right and many of the major voting machine companies bother anyone or create any cause for concern? The flow of funding towards the development of these systems is currently under close scrutiny.

Watch out for those who may start to panic about this, and who are trying to make those investigating the issue look like the crazy ones.

[gdub]

75. Agreed on each of your points

Greatly generalizing, I take away from the various comments, the following notions:

1) the war in Irag may be understood as a clash of theocracies to a much greater extent than most have assumed to date (i.e., Bin Laden's pan-Islamic caliphate versus the 1,000-year Christian empire envisioned by the Dominionists and executed by the Bush administration and the pro-Zionist neo-cons);

2) that, yes, the Dominion and the Fellowship exert significance influence in Washington--and the question remains to what extent and is it reversible?

3) Is our "democractic" goverment and society still up for grabs? Despite the fact that we were all sleeping (or at least the moderate Democrats and Republicans amongst us) while the religious right BECAME the Republican party and then stole at least two if not three of the past national elections, can we take it back?

4) History suggests that there really is no single overarching "conspiracy theory" that will explain the balance of power in America. Rather American power politics at any given point in time is comprised of a series of uneasy alliances between ideological and economic minority groups. For example, the Dominionsts and Zionists of today--certainly not natural bed fellows. As a result, can we take it back? Why or why not?

I appreciate the various posts in response to my challenging positions--both the knee jerks and the more thoughtful responses. For me, devil's advocacy is an important part of debate.

Theocracywatch.org was particularly valuable as was a link to Political Research Associates.

[Peace Patriot]

74. gdub, you could make the same charge about Kerry's speechwriters...

...bad writing. But it really doesn't prove anything. It may or may not be indicative of deception, or lack of substance. You have to consider it in context.

I'm with you on vague charges couched in the passive tense. I vet things this way, too. (The BushCon press often uses this and similar literary techniques to avoid pinning responsibility for anything on anybody.)

However, after Cheney's secret energy task force, 9/11, the invasion of Iraq (100,000+ people bombed into oblivion), and this Election, I don't think any conspiracy theory can be automatically ruled out. I've no doubt there are many such conspiracies--that's what happens when a powerful country like ours gets taken over by fascists and begins to disintegrate. And there is most certainly a central conspiracy, evident all around us, to rob us blind, use our children for cannon fodder, destroy our communities, divide us against each other, and turn us all, or most of us, quite literally into slaves.

We may not be able to see all of the actors in this conspiracy, but we can see some of them. The BushCon White House. Cheney. Bush "Pioneers." Daddy Bush. Prince Bandar. And the heads of probably any global corporations you could name.

The problem I see, with Madsen and others, is that we get involved in ardently supporting, or fervently trashing, an individual and his ideas--as if we were pursuing the Holy Grail, the key to everything, and the pure knight who will find the secret--and we thus fail to keep the big picture in mind. Also, individuals (like perhaps Madsen) can themselves get overwhelmed by their pursuit of the truth, and lose their way (focus madly on the details, in hot pursuit, but can't discern false trails, or lose sight of the overall context).

At bottom, I don't think we're dealing with a religious cult. The religious thing is on the periphery--it motivates some people, but it is merely a tool for the real actors--and furthermore, it has been with us since the fall of the Roman Empire, always angling for privilege and secret power. I think we are dealing, instead, with a Mafia-like cabal of gangsters, with riches and powers far beyond anything the Mafia could have imagined.

The sole drivers are greed and power. Religion has nothing to do with it at all (except in so far as the religious permit themselves to be used, or are individually power hungry, greedy and/or repressive).

As to what this BushCon gangster cabal is up to, I think much of it is pretty obvious. The one thing that stood in the path of global corporate dominion and a worldwide protection racket was the American people, and their inherent or latent powers as citizens (their voices, their votes) to curtail and regulate corporate greed (since these bad actors all come from here), to demand a piece of the pie, to stop unjust wars, and to maintain their democracy.

This is why so much attention has been lavished on the American people, in the form of brainwashing them, dividing them, keeping them completely ignorant and uninformed, and creating dreams and illusions of prosperity and democracy (a total sham), while the BushCons eat their children for dinner, and destroy their once great progressive, share-the-wealth country.

This great democracy had its problems--it's true. It was partly based on abundant resources, which are almost gone. And the rich vs. poor divide has been building for some time. And the military-industrial complex has been a great albatross on its back--and worm in its belly--since at least the Eisenhower administration. Still, many good dreams were realized here, by many people, and there is much about our country to admire and to defend.

One of the shining lights was the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965--bought with such suffering and courage--now under vicious assault by the BushCons.

And the final blow to all--to our dreams and ideals, and to our power as a people--was this election.

One of the things this fraudulent election accomplished was dividing and fracturing the great coalition that had arisen of grass roots leftists and the Democratic Party leaders to oust these criminals. It was quite real, and it had to be destroyed.

I think the election fraud was extremely well-planned. When the coalition to oust them began to really roll, in the last three or four months of the campaign (and especially when the Swiftboat Liars attack to discredit Kerry didn't work--people didn't buy it, ultimately), they implemented Plan A (electronic fraud) and Plan B (vote suppression in Ohio, Florida and elsewhere) together. Plan A would have been sufficient if the grass roots hadn't risen up to defeat them. As it was, they needed both.

And--here's where Madsen comes in, I think--they had OTHER backup plans, which Madsen maybe got hold of the tail of. Plan C--a plan for a more overt coup.

I think the old pols among the BushCon cabal (the Rove types) maybe didn't entirely trust the new techie solution--that it would be so easy and undetectable, that they could actually steal the whole election that way. Thus Plan B. And Plan C (of which the Homeland Security scam in Warren County may have been a remnant) was the backup to that. If all else fails--say, if Kerry had been getting 10% advantage in votes on election day, enough to overcome the planned fraud--then we would have seen critical states and counties locked down over some awful-sounding but phantom terrorist threat, disruption of the election, the use of only partial results to empower Bush Inc., and the use of paid covert operatives to produce those results.

They seem to have been rehearsing Plan C throughout the lead up to the election, with all those phony terrorist alerts. (And, personally, I was intrigued by Cheney's flight to Hawaii two days before the election--what was THAT about?)

Madsen put out a possible scenario of the Homeland Security plan (Plan C) coming down in California and the west. I thought it sounded quite plausible--and it would not have surprised me in the least. Why? Because I have a gut feeling--as I'm sure a lot of others do--that this cabal CANNOT AFFORD TO lose power. They are much too dirty. In any functioning democracy, they would all be in prison already--just on their most visible crimes.

So, they would have done just about anything to retain power--is my feeling. (That is also a positive sign that our democracy is not quite over yet--they still have to manipulate, lie, cheat, and brainwash to keep control of us. They still fear a reckoning.)

Please be aware that, in some respects, I'm just guessing--like all of us are. This situation that our country finds itself in is a very difficult one. There are things we can see, but there is a lot that is totally non-transparent. And we have been used to being citizens of a country in which transparency is the ideal--what our laws and political process are supposedly aimed at.

We are also at the vortex of this powerful gang's designs, and many of their actions are aimed at us. What the world is going to look like for centuries to come--and whether or not there is even going to be a human race, and a habitable planet for them to live in--is being fought out, right now, here.

What I would suggest for DUers is to try to keep the big picture in mind, especially in dealing with individuals who are working hard on aspects of various serious crimes. If they don't know how to write, or they seem off the wall at times, or they fail in some way, let's not immediately presume impure motives (tch, tch!), and, please, let us give deeper thought to this matter of THEM appearing too "tinfoil" and "discrediting" OUR movement because of how the BushCon media MIGHT VIEW THEM.

I think we have to be very wary of that.

We have a right to make our own judgments of what is worthy of our attention, and what is not, but why burn someone to the ground because we don't particularly buy what they're saying, or don't like their style, or feel "tainted" by them? (What's to taint? We're ALL "tinfoilers" here, in the eyes of the Propagandists?)

And I hope that we can learn to act toward others with respect, and thoughtful consideration, and some compassion, review what they have to say, and try to fit it into the bigger picture, and also into the context of ACTION to save our democracy.

On the ground, grass roots political activity is badly needed, for some very practical things we have to do, that could have far reaching consequences as to turning this situation around.

One of them is a local, state by state campaign, to achieve: a) a paper receipt for every vote, and b) open source code, or, a) paper ballots, and b) hand counts. We still have the power to do this. (It resides with the states and counties.) Most people would agree with it. But we may not have much time. This is a must do.

Another is a divestiture and boycott campaign targeting BushCon news media. This is doable, and much needed.

A third may be preparing our local communities for a financial meltdown, and/or working toward independence from the corporate powers (on energy, food, etc.).

And a fourth may be creating a task force to protect our freedom of speech on the Internet. If you want to look for conspiracies, you need look no further--for I'm sure there IS one to take away our only independent news and communication source. (We need to know what it's possible for them to do, what might be in the works, and what alternatives we might have.)

January 6 is, more than anything else, an opportunity to inform other like-minded people of what has gone down in this election, so that we can develop a broad consensus on effective action. The Democratic Party leaders may help us; and they may not. We'll see. But one thing I know, we don't help consensus and unity--and we don't give the truth any more currency in the BushCon media--by trashing other activists, no matter how far-out their ideas may be.

The "tinfoil" of today has too often turned out to be tomorrow's proven and accepted truth. (Just think a bit about the "lone bullet" theory of the JFK assassination, and how all those truth-seekers were reviled, for so many years! Give me the tinfoilers and crazies of the Internet any day, compared to the corporate media that covered up the truth about that assassination!)

[gdub]

76. Amen

or, rather, ahem.

[gdub]

77. "..."

Please contact me for a single-malt scotch, if you like, and an interesting proposition. I tried PM'ing you but you have that function blocked. I am available via PM here or at my blog via the comment function at the bottom of any of the entries -- http://scam-o-rama.blogspot.com

[truth2power]

84. gdub, I'm just reading thru, here. Don't really have a dog in this fight..

but, I'm just curious...

You made an assertion early on, that Madsen is a fraud - an opinion to which you are certainly entitled. I've been following some of what Madsen has written, and my opinion is that he is likely onto something, consequently, I choose to give him the benefit of the doubt until I know otherwise.

I notice, though, that Nashville asked if you had any links to support your assertion that Madsen is perpetrating disinformation. Then, Redacted also asked for any facts you have which would support your assertion, above.

In response, you did a skillful job of refocusing the issue back onto Redacted, with the demand, "Prove that you aren't" <part of the black psy-ops team led by Mr. Madsen>.

Presto-chango! You no longer need to support your assertion. I hope Redacted doesn't rise to the bait. The ball is in your court.

[gdub]

92. Appreciated

My earlier replies took two principal approaches:

1) to define "fraud" in this case as my opinion and an opinion based solely upon the quality of Madsen's writing (or "journalism") with the explanation that I believe it to be below a minimum standard of professional credibility. In a court of law, the credibility of the attestor is one of the principal purposes of having a witness testify in person. (Why did Rep. Conyers call two forums to shed light on the Ohio allegations? To verify the credibility of those making the allegations AND to publicize the issue itself.)

When one judges the credibility of a source via their writing alone, one can establish general credibility only by the writing itself and the writer's credentials (assuming the credentials are accurate). I have researched online Mr. Madsen's career and his published books. I have previously published a summary of this research (and my opinion on my blog - http://scam-o-rama.blogspot.com), and I have read all the various stories that Mr. Madsen has written on this issue. Quite simply, in my opinion, I can assign to him no credibility--hence, the admittedly strong lable of "fraud."

2) the reason that I used the term "fraud" was to invite spirited debate. I found it particularly interesting that in response to this invitation several people questioned that I may in fact have some ulterior, political motive to impugn Mr. Madsen's credibility. In response, my suggestion was simply that those seeking to question my motives could just as easily have their motives questioned for supporting Mr. Madsen--a view apparently shared by many at DU. It is also interesting to be called a "Freeper" when I freely admit that I am a life long Republican. What purpose does the lable "Freeper" have in this context? I am a Republican who is not a Freeper.

Aside from these previous responses, I would like to add the following:

With respect to the requests for proof that Mr. Madsen's assertions are not credible, I have not yet responded because I am, in fact, diligently following up on the various links that others have provided to me. I can say, that at this time, I have found absolutely nothing in the Dominionist links or other literature that would allow me to take the logical leaps suggested by Mr. Madsen.

Accept as true that the Fellowship and similar organizations have powerful influence in Washington. Accept as true that the religious right has taken over the Republican Party from the most local to the most national levels. Accept as true that systemic voting irregularities resulted in George Bush winning when, in fact, John Kerry should have won. Accept as true that the election result was a direct consequence of some significant measure of vote fraud in addition to obvious voter disenfranschisement.

How do any of Mr. Madsen's other allegations inevitably flow from these premises? The answer, for me, is that they don't. In addition, Mr. Madsen appears to obscure any connection between what actually is true and can be verified and subsidiary assertions that can't. His inevitable conclusions cannot be supported by logic.

My job as a seeker of truth is to not jump to conclusions. Rather it is to ask those seeking to convince me for evidence to support their assertions and the logical connection between them.

I have many personal connections in the world of Republican politics, including the current Bush administration. The people I know do not torture puppies in their basements or make burnt offerings at secretive altars. In general, they are average people with, albeit, overly conservative views.

In addition, I have members of my family and my closest circle of friends who have held highest level government security clearances working in top management positions for the DOD, NSA and CIA in addition to Congress and the White House.

In short, my experience tells me that many if not most of the people who run our government have not yet been assimilated by the Borg.

As a result, in working diligently to frame a strategy to respond to religious zealotry in our country, to war mongering, to election fraud, and to intolerance and hatred in any form, I must work from facts. Because facts will allow me to respond effectively in a manner best calculated to overcome my adversary. Anything else is folly.

Isn't one faith-based community enough for us to handle at the moment?

[AntiFascist]

93. I see that you're back to playing devil's advocate....

I'm glad to hear that most of the DOD, NSA and CIA have not yet been assimilated by the Borg, but certainly you've heard about the uprising that had occured amongst the old guard of the CIA and how many were unwilling to "generate" information just to support anyone's agenda? This had even been covered in the MSM.

With regard to Madsen, I've been operating under the assumption that there may be a lot of "money flow" type of evidence which simply has not been made public and which they may be trying to attach faces to. When money is transferred between corporations or when it is being laundered it is not always clear who is responsible or what the intentions are. By fitting the evidence into a larger contextual theory one can then make a case which can be presented to the judges. The problem with being an investigator, it seems, is that sometimes you have to float theories to see if they work or not, eventhough it may have no bearing on the actual evidence.

I also agree that many Republicans are not bad people who would willfully break the law, but the key in this discussion should be: would those people who have the most wealth and power lead a global strategy that places "God"'s agenda above that of the laws of any government? As TorchesAndPitchforks pointed out on your blog, just a tiny bit of computer fraud would make it a "done deal."

[gdub]

95. Let's rest

I believe we have exhausted this topic until another day and perhaps in a different light.

Your points are valid.

Peace

[cyberpj]

50. The Fellowship and a (not so funny anymore) photo -

If you're familiar with the www.sorryeverybody.com site, then you may also know there are others, in response to that one. One of the others is www.apologiesaccepted.com.

Here is a (no doubt Photoshopped) image that's posted there.

After reading Madsen's info, it's not quite so funny anymore.......

One ring to rule them all
One ring to bind them
One ring to find them all
And in the darkness bind them.



Want to see it there yourself?
Go to: http://www.apologiesaccepted.com/gallery_00008.html and scroll down to the last photo.

[mopinko]

59. this photo has been around

for a long time.

[cyberpj]

67. Sorry, I guess I'm newer here than you

and be nice to me - I'm one of your customers! :)

[mopinko]

73. seriously?

cool. thanks. it's a little late, but welcome to du. :toast:

[cyberpj]

78. yep

I'm "pj online" Re: "My order is caught in a loop!" email:freak:

Finally, paypal set us straight. Cool stuff.:thumbsup:

DU is great - kindred spirits appreciated.

PJ

[mopinko]

85. did you get them

in time for the rally?

[cyberpj]

94. 1 day late but then I mailed them to participants

with info on your site if they wanted more.

Keep on keepin on --- your efforts are appreciated.

[mopinko]

97. booo

i felt bad, cuz if you had let me know in the beginning that you had an event coming up, i would have been on top of it from the start. you would have had them. oh, well.
can't help keepin on. i'll explode if i don't. thanks.

[BamaBecky]

66. Clearly a fake photo - all you have to do is look close!!!! n/t

[cyberpj]

68. Yes, that's why I said,

"Here is a (no doubt Photoshopped) image that's posted there."

I'm just learning about this Fellowship thing in D.C. but honest, I didn't believe there'd be an actual ring!

Honest! :hi:

[Peace Patriot]

79. Look, there is always a certain morbid chumminess among the mass...

...murderers and despots of this world, until they see something to be gained from destroying each other. And culty religious types always attach themselves to mass murderers and despots--because they will never gain power in an open, rational, progressive society, and they have character flaws that make them want to bow down in abject worship (as well as opposite and complementary tendencies to dominate and oppress).

But I think the main thing in operation here is plain old greed and power-mongering (as it has always been)--only now on a scale far more dangerous to all life on earth than humanity has ever seen before.

We are seeing unprecedented rapaciousness, and unprecedented worldwide organization of piratical and exploitative "trade" (if you can call it that), along with a sort of desperation to grab every last tree, every last oil deposit, and every last everything before it's gone, and to squeeze more and more labor out of the human population, at lesser and lesser cost to the rich. And all of it--or most of it--is centered right here, in the United States of America.

It's a sort of Beast that we have spawned--which at first gave us many benefits, but which has now turned truly ugly, and has gone way out of control. And it has turned against US.

I've often wondered about this over the last few years. The US middle class is the "golden goose" that has made all these corporations so rich and powerful. We are not only a highly creative and highly productive people, we are also the most willingly seduced consumers on earth. How could the Republican Party--always known for its pro-business outlook--be conspiring to destroy this "golden goose"--as they clearly are doing?

The through the roof federal debt, this bottomless pit of a war, overtaxing the poor and the middle class, undertaxing the rich, underpaying workers, astronomical medical costs, destroying Social Security, destroying local budgets for infrastructure, schools, etc., are actions that will obliterate the American middle class, sooner rather than later.

How could this be in the interest of the business community? The only answer I've come up with is they don't need us anymore. They have China--and India! And soon, the Middle East. Also, they are no longer a "business community." They are individual jackals heading global corporations, who may conspire to enhance their own power, but who have no loyalty, no patriotism, no attachment to anything, not even to their own princely class (unlike, say, the British nobility of old, which had old school ties and attachments, a genuine love of England, and its own code of ethics).

A Beast.

Yup, religion is irrelevant to it--except as a means of mind control.

I think we have much more to fear from the dark princes who comprise this Beast, than from their astrologers--and we should stay focused on their greed and power, and how to curtail it.

The American people are also very diverse, and, at bottom, very tolerant and open-minded. (Look at all the B.S. they saw through--in repudiating Bush and all his works, and electing Kerry!) Think how many of us come from cultural and racial roots in which the rejection of religious oppression--and other kinds of oppression-- are key elements of the immigration story, and are part of our upbringing. (I sure picked up a lot of anti-Cromwellian views myself, being part Irish.)

Religious oppression is always a danger (seems to be always with us, too--some sort of misdirection of a human need to be in accord with others, to be "in"?). But I don't think it's the primary danger that Americans are facing. It is merely one of many propaganda weapons being used to try to keep us in line.

[me b zola]

91. Peace Patriot

Thank-You for your eloquent, well-spoken words. I have been trying to say many of the same things (spooky how identical some of the thoughts are), but am not nearly as articulate as you.

[gdub]

80. BTW, who is Jamboi anyway?

[AntiFascist]

81. You can find out much more.....

at the second link of the original post.

[AntiFascist]

86. Jamboi wanted me to post his response to you.....

you can find it here on DailyKos:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/1/2/231554/3343

[Al-CIAda]

89. Keep up the good work

Thanks for the info.

[rdmccur]

88. Thanks for the devil-advocacy!

[genius]

90. Thanks

[gdub]

96. The last thing I will add is this

Has anyone considered the possibility that Madsen simply sits around reading books by other people and then strings everything together around various news stories and pieces of information available on the Internet? It is hard for me to believe that he really has any actual "sources."

That is the way it looks and feels to me.

Over and out.

[AntiFascist]

98. His experience is impressive.....

http://iml.dartmouth.edu/ists/madsen.html

Mr. Madsen is a Senior Fellow of the Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC), a non-partisan privacy public advocacy group in Washington, DC. He works with member of Congress and congressional committees on legislation and hearings of common interest.

He is also a freelance investigative journalist, and has written for The Village Voice, The Progressive, CAQ, Counterpunch, and the Intelligence Newsletter. Mr. Madsen is the author of The Handbook of Personal Data Protection (London: Macmillan, 1992), an acclaimed reference book on international data protection law.

Mr. Madsen has some twenty years experience in computer security and data privacy. As a U.S. Naval Officer he managed one of the first computer security programs for the U.S. Navy. He subsequently worked for the National Security Agency, the Naval Data Automation Command, Department of State, RCA Corporation, and Computer Sciences Corporation.

[gdub]

99. Big deal

Sounds like a plant to me.

[AntiFascist]

100. He's currently directing investigators to look more closely at....

Adnan Khashoggi. As you know, Saudi billionaires and royalty are notoriously shy and defensive about any attention that would call into question their relationships in Washington. Why would a plant do this?

[gdub]

101. I meant: a house plant

[AntiFascist]

102. Any FBI here??

That's the "beef" we need.