Warning: If you are a Kool-Aid drinker, DO NOT tune into Thom

[OwnedByFerrets]

Hartmann this morning. He is truth telling.

[nemo137]

1. God, there's one I haven't heard since the primaries.

It's going to be a long 4 years.

[scheming daemons]

21. 8 years,

[nemo137]

53. There's something about hatching chickens and when to count them.

Shit, during the election, I fined my roommates a quarter every time they talked about Obama winning.

[tekisui]

2. Take cover, Thom! Incoming!

He is set to join the ranks of Krugman as a formerly-loved liberal.

[branders seine]

3. I'm a newbie and haven't been here even as a lurker for a while.

I used to come here back in the dark days to escape the drooling worship of bush.

When did this site become so sycophantic?

[tekisui]

6. November 4th.

[debbierlus]

27. Half the site is an Obama fan club - the other half is vested in policy reform

[dionysus]

41. did you type that with a straight face?

:rofl:

[branders seine]

55. it seemed pretty sober and pretty accurate to me

after what I've read here the past couple of days.

[Jakes Progress]

56. See. One reply example from each so far. nt

[johnaries]

60. Half the site is vested in policy reform, the other half wants a pony.

As a Progressive, I want to see some actual PROGRESS. That's not possible without a little pragmatism. Constructive criticism is one thing, obstructionist negativity is another.

I know this is hard for some of you to believe, but it is possible to compromise without compromising your ideals.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

4. What's he saying? nt

[tnlefty]

5. I listen to him from 3-6 ET on XM.

Previews?

[Sebastian Doyle]

7. First thing he mentioned is the fact that the health insurance stocks are up this morning.

Obviously the corporations heard the same speech I did (which the cheerleaders apparently didn't)

[dionysus]

14. you can do better, throw in a cult or a messiah. maybe even a pony or a lame joke involving "change"

[Sebastian Doyle]

20. Whatever, cheerleader.

I'm not afraid to call out the President when he's wrong. And mandatory corporate insurance is as WRONG as it fucking gets.

[dionysus]

23. all based on speculation. there is no final bill. i think you just get off on being outraged.

[Sebastian Doyle]

26. Actually, I don't.

But that doesn't mean I'll let "Democrats" get away with the same shit the Republicans are doing, either. You cannot be both the problem AND the solution, and the corrupt insurance industry IS the problem.

[dionysus]

28. of course the insurance industry is the problem. maybe it makes no sense for me not

to get upset until we know what we have. you can gaurantee it won't be as much as we hoped, but will it be better than not doing anything? no one really knows at this point.

you could say perhaps i am too pragmatic. but i get a vibe from some posters on here that if you're not as outraged as they are, or if you still trust in obama, you're a fool or not a real liberal, you're some kind of DLC hack, and that's wrong.

[Sebastian Doyle]

30. Rewarding the corrupt criminals who caused the problem with 40 million new reluctant customers

is not a solution, or even a mild step forward. It's a giant leap in the WRONG direction. Obama has said all along that "if you like your (corporate) coverage, you'll be able to keep it", which I don't have a problem with. If someone volunteers to keep getting fucked over by the corporations, that's their choice. But if you are told that you HAVE to buy from this criminal corporation, that is simply not right, and it damn sure is not REFORM.

[dionysus]

31. in my point of view, it might be worth it if you can make rescission illegal, stop denying coverage

for pre-existing conditions, ect. Then perhaps good can come out of it. remember, these companies don't get rich collecting premiums, they get rich by denying coverage.

the concept of a mandate would only work if its susidized for low income people, i'd want more detail on that.

you add a public option into the mix, they might actually have to lower their prices to compete.

i suppose from your point of view that's wildly optimistic.

i wish we could snap our fingers and insurance companies would vanish, but it's not going to happen.

single payer would be great, but in truth, there's nowhere near the amount of votes to pass either the house or senate. so you either get done what you can and try to improve it, or do nothing. you don't think obama is actually planning on scamming us, do you?

and on edit, remember we need a handfull of asshole blue dogs to go along with us so we have enough votes. keep in mind this whole thing is a ridiculously difficult task. This has been going on since FDR, and we are closer than we were in 1993...

[Sebastian Doyle]

36. "you don't think obama is actually planning on scamming us, do you?"

Do I want to think that? No.

But after putting Wall $treet whores (no offense to sex workers) in charge of the economy, MonSatan shills in charge of Agriculture, and now rewarding insurance criminals with 40 million new captive clients, it's getting more difficult every day to believe otherwise :evilfrown:

[dionysus]

39. fair enough

[jgraz]

34. Yes! For God's sake the last thing we want to do is get angry about some political issue

That might lead to ... action. *gasp*

[dionysus]

37. clearly a straw man. you know i said being angry about a bill that doesn't yet exist.

no one knows what its going to look like before it comes out of conference. yet some here are already talking about supporting a third party or someone else in the primaries over the whole affair. :eyes:

[jgraz]

38. Ah, so we should wait until the bill is written before we voice our opinions...

Right... that makes much more sense. :eyes:

[dionysus]

40. voicing your opinion does not equal "obama sucks i'm gonna quit the dems over this"

which has been said by more than a few on here

[jgraz]

42. And is that what Sebastian posted?

I believe you were saying something about "straw men"?

[dionysus]

43. well, yes, actually. "whatever cheerleader" falls under that category.

anyone who tosses out words like;

cheerleader
apologist
kool aid drinker
fanboy
and the old cult\messiah\worship crap

when people post that stuff they're not trying to debate policy, they're insulting people and trying to piss them off.

when people are talking about quitting on the dems, running primary challenges, before there is even a final bill to vote on, are at best handwringers.

there's plenty of people who have policy differences that don't go down to that level.

it's really not that complex.

[jgraz]

44. you got "obama sucks I'm quitting the dems" from "cheerleader"?

That's impressive

or something..

[dionysus]

45. no, not in this thread. everything i mentioned i have seen in GDP

i read way too much DU.

[jgraz]

46. If only there were some rule about continuing arguments from other threads...

People say crazy shit on any side of an issue. The first responder to my comments on Obama's speech called me a drooling, inarticulate hater (or words to that effect -- Skinner deleted the post immediately as it was on the thread he started). Another accused me of being *either* a Socialist *or* a Republican (there's some clear thinking for ya).

If we all brought up every nasty comment and attributed it to everyone we disagreed with, this board would be even less productive than it is now. Scary thought.

[dionysus]

47. what?!?!? DU is a bastion of productivity!!

:rofl: ;)

[jgraz]

49. In the "productive cough" sense of productivity

[JNelson6563]

63. Frankly, whenever name-calling comes into the discussion

credibility leaves the discussion. I see plenty of fault with both sides and quickly dismiss the posts by those who stoop to name-calling mentality. It's obvious real discussion with those who hold differing views is not their intention.

Julie

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

51. Just checked my portfolio...

Dell Computers is up. As is Dollar Thrifty Rental Car. As is MGM (10%!). As is Ford and Citigroup.

Their relation to health care? None. The market is having a good day.

I like Thom most of the time, but when he talks finance, he's talking out his ass.

[NRaleighLiberal]

8. Ah, Thom, my favorite AM talk radio intellectual. Breath of fresh air.

I love Steph and Big Ed, don't get me wrong - Steph satisfies my anti republican, cynical funny bone. Ed fires me up to fight. But Thom engages my brain.

[jgraz]

9. Can you give us a quick overview? Not able to stream him ATM.

Pretty please? O8)

[Dawgs]

10. Is that the same Thom Hartmann that said the DOW would be around 4500 by now?

Sorry, but just because he sounds bright doesn't mean that he always gets it right.

[dionysus]

29. i think he's brilliant, but, like a lot of media liberals, always so goddamn pessimistic.

with the grand prize winner being rachel.

[DevonRex]

11. How very 2008 Primaries of you. zzzzz. nt

[dionysus]

12. i love how bitter you are, to start on OP with a cheap insult. you've got 7 1/2 years left to gnash

imagine that. that's a loooong time.

because obviously, you're not trying to persuade people, you're trying to piss them off.
:rofl:

[Howardx]

17. clearly

inhaling the constant smell of weasel urine has addled his mind.

[Cha]

13. Well you should be drowning

in the fucking stuff.

[DevonRex]

15. *snort*

I had been thinking of saying something like that but couldn't word it right. Thank you!

:rofl:

[firedupdem]

16. +1

:eyes:

[Davis_X_Machina]

18. When Thom routinely delivers votes in the Senate...

...like Rush can, then I'll get excited.

Until then I salute his efforts to talk single-payer into existence out of thin air.

[grantcart]

48. my my how dare you allow a ray of reality enter into hallowed grounds of

the self absorbed progressive.

[Davis_X_Machina]

58. I'm a socialist. *My* preferred solution...

...is that followed in Great Britain -- nationalize it. Deliver health care the way we decided to do education back in the days of Horace Mann. As a public school teacher I'd love to go to a public health doctor -- I think we'd see the world the same way, unclouded by boat payments.

I do not, however, anticipate being able to usher in this state of affairs by a.) primarying Mr. Obama, b.) forming a third party, c.) holding my breath till I turn blue.

The single-payer train has left the station for the time being. My train hasn't left the station -- because they're still drawing blueprints for the roundhouse where someday the locomotive might be built. I feel some pain for the single-payer proponents, but it's tempered by being even further 'off the table'.

HR 3200, or whatever riff on it that comes out of conference committee, will make some people stinking rich. And we -- the great Unwashed -- are going to be compelled, more or less, to make them so. I'm not happy with that -- I'm not an idiot.

I would, however, rather have them richer than they were, and more people covered better, than have them as rich as they are now, and the status quo. There aren't any more choices on offer today. As for the future, I'm with Rick in Casablanca.

Yvonne: Where were you last night?
Rick: That's so long ago, I don't remember.
Yvonne: Will I see you tonight?
Rick: I never make plans that far ahead.

[Overseas]

19. "I thought this was a brilliant speech" --

"but he said we're going to build on what works-- which is the Republican talking point--
but we don't have a system that works."

He acknowledged that President Obama may be thinking this is the best we can get. But wished he would have pushed harder against Republican resistance as LBJ did with Medicare.

What I'm hoping is that even after President Obama proposed giving us the insurance exchange Congress now has, Republicans remain intransigent and keep floating ridiculous rumors-- then Democrats can band together and say-- OK FELLAS, WE TRIED TO ACCOMMODATE YOU

But we're just going to have to open up Medicare to all who want to buy into it at cost as the public option. And we're going to lower the age of eligibility to 50 because that is the age after which private insurers jack up their premium prices and age is a pre-existing condition.

[countingbluecars]

22. Yours is an obnoxious, worthless post. n/t

[debbierlus]

24. Bless his truth telling heart!

[treestar]

25. We aren't kool aid drinkers

We just know what we support and why.

That's for right wing blowhards, not for us.

[brentspeak]

57. Just DLC shills

[WI_DEM]

32. What is a kool-aid drinker? someone who disagrees with Thom Hartmann?

[OwnedByFerrets]

33. Personally, I define it as someone like Brittney Spears

SPEARS: Honestly, I think we should just trust our president in every decision he makes and should just support that, you know, and be faithful in what happens.

Your definition may differ. That's ok too.:-)

[Hansel]

59. No, those who don't agree with EVERYTHING

that those who call others kool-aid drinkers say.

They haven't quite figured out that not everyone agrees with their approach to issues and problem resolving. Everyday it's "You don't agree with what I want and think and say so you are a kool-aid drinker!

Some of us just agree that Obama's approach is more likely to result in success than Thom Hartmann's. We might think it is more critical to get something more positive done than to pretend that there is going to be a single payer health care system in the United States in the foreseeable future as much as we would like one.

During the Bush era we liked to refer to ourselves as "reality based". I will gladly claim the "kool-aid drinker" label if that is the new catch phrase for "living in reality".

[saucy susanna]

35. I love Thom Hartmann! He comes on in the afternoon where I live

so thanks for reminding me to listen.

[CakeGrrl]

50. I love the smell of combative Flamebait in the afternoon! K/U

[thoughtcrime1984]

52. Must we call people "Kool-Aid drinkers here? I thought the Democrats were the party of nuance

The party of well-thought out ideas, high IQ's, and those who do not march in lock-step. Everything is not black and white. We support our President, but not everything he does goes without our criticism. The health care plan is far from ideal, but there are positive points in it. We would be moving away just a tiny bit from unregulated private enterprise in health care. I see it as a little bit of progress, rather than a complete failure.

[DevonRex]

54. There you go, being all reasonable.

:hi:

[treestar]

62. It's funny but we have to find something to criticize on principle

Whereas the Repukes don't have to do that. Nice advantage for them.

[treestar]

61. when the M$M carried Bush's water, there were a few liberals to criticize him

Now the M$M criticizes Obama all day. And those who criticized Bush then now criticize Obama too. So there is zero media supporting our side. Great. Just great.