I'm still glad that I voted for Obama

[ruggerson]

Considering the two choices we all had, it was a no brainer.

I agree with him on many issues and think he is a thoughtful, intelligent guy.

I also think he's a cunning politician who at times will put what he sees as his political survival and/or viability and/or advantage above what he may know is Right and Good with a capital R and G.

I don't think he is the next great hope - he has yet to step foot into the oval office as its occupant. He may very well turn out to be something wonderful, but for now he is a smart guy with a lot of potential.

I think he made an enormous mistake with Warren, and I think he miscalculated.
Politicians miscalculate all the time, even extraordinarily smart ones.

I think Warren is a bigot. I don't think anyone can "disagree" with the basic human rights of any group of people. While life itself is many shades of gray, basic rights in America are not. They should be afforded equally to all citizens, and using the cover of "religious beliefs" to oppose them is both wrongheaded and dishonest.

The silver lining here is that Obama may now have to move more quickly on some of the gay community's concerns, and the beltway opinion makers now won't fault him if he does. They might have previously Clintonized him as inappropriately pandering to a special interest group too quickly, if the Warren fiasco had not played out the way it has. Now, the liberal punditocracy thinks he owes gay people. That's both good news for all of us, gay and straight, and for Obama too, as it frees his hands to do possibly do some good things a bit quicker than before Warren happened.

I think the gay folks at DU have been understandably furious over the Warren affair.

I think a lot of straight people here have been just as furious and have been very strong and welcome allies and trenchmates in the fight for equality.

I don't think this has ever been a black versus gay dynamic, and I think those that are pushing that point of view are trying to divert and/or divide us. Just ask any gay person of color.

There are some here who don't understand the fight for GLBT equality and have been relentlessly negative and hostile towards both gay and straight posters who have expressed concerns about the Warren fiasco.

There are some here who didn't understand the fight for GLBT equality and took advantage of this opportunity to further educate themselves and found, surprise surprise, that they were a lot more on board with gay rights than they had imagined.

The country and Obama will survive this dust-up, and gay people will probably be better off for it, when all is said and done.

Nothing that I've written, as far as I can see, is mutually exclusive.

[babylonsister]

1. Big recommend for everything you said. nt

[Fridays Child]

15. Second that. K&R. eom

[Sarah Ibarruri]

2. It's not just a gay issue. It's an issue of women. I'm not gay but Rick Warren believes women

have no right to their bodies. It shocks me that Obama would be so cozy with this man.

[GarbagemanLB]

4. It is apparent you have never listened to Obama or read either of his books.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

6. What does that have to do with the fact that there's a bigot-sexist-pig Obama hugs and loves? nt

[Clovis Sangrail]

23. because one of the central themes in his books is inclusion

of people you disagree with - sometimes very strongly - in the political process.

That doesn't change what Rick Warren is but it does mean that this decision isn't particularly surprising and it doesn't mean Obama agrees with him.
:shrug:

[IndianaJones]

27. according to his book he does on the issue of gay marriage. nt.

[Clovis Sangrail]

40. Obama compared homosexuals to pedophiles? 0o

those pages must have been stuck together or something cause I missed them

[IndianaJones]

47. he opposes gay marriage based on religious traditions. And I'm sure some of your pages are stuck.nt

[Clovis Sangrail]

48. OMFG!! they agree on something!!

I bet they both probably walk around doing that whole "america is great" think too !!1!

[IndianaJones]

49. they agree on bigotry. awesome! you can stick some more pages together! nt.

[Clovis Sangrail]

52. So "Obama's a bigot" but you're *not*?

:rofl:

big·ot (bgt)
n.
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

[IndianaJones]

53. cool...you're a reverse racism whiner too. nt.

[Clovis Sangrail]

55. EXACTLY!! Is somebody give out mind reading pills or something tonight???

this is incredible

either that or your judging me based on your preconceived notions about what people who engage in reverse racism must be like
... which would be ... what's the word....... oh yeah! ... prejudice

Normally that's a bad thing but since it's coming from you it must be good .. right?

[IndianaJones]

56. isn't that what you poor oppressed say to minorities that point out bigotry, Sticky Pages? nt.

[Clovis Sangrail]

58. I'm oppressed?

I've got to admit.. all your mind reading stuff has got me a bit spooked.

you're not like.. channeling the future now or something are you?
:scared:

[IndianaJones]

59. yeah, by the mean minorities. it sparks your incessant whining. nt.

[Clovis Sangrail]

60. do you think some, or all, minority groups are "mean" ?

it's kinda fucked up that you think everybody in a particular group is a certain way.
If you think that about ethnic groups that's called racism.. and I'm pretty sure it's not tolerated on this board.

[IndianaJones]

61. no, I think you poor oppressed majority whine an awful lot.

I think its sweet when a white person calls me a racist though. Keep on truckin' sticky pages.

[Clovis Sangrail]

62. are you like Carnac the Magnificent or something?

I'm a "reverse racism whiner" - I'm white - I'm in the majority
you're 0 for 3 so far ... want to try for more?

:rofl:

[IndianaJones]

63. uh huh...sure. keep digging sticky pages. lmao. nt.

[Clovis Sangrail]

65. what am I supposed to be digging?

that you're one hoopy frood ?

[IndianaJones]

72. your poor oppressed majority schtick. nt.

[Clovis Sangrail]

73. it seems like you have it down ... maybe I should just follow your lead /nt

[IndianaJones]

74. oh you're doing just fine, sticky pages. nt.

[Clovis Sangrail]

75. why thanks :) I've been getting some awesome lessons from one hoopy frood /nt

[Sarah Ibarruri]

34. Okay, fine. So where is he including the Neo-Nazis and the KKK then? nt

[Clovis Sangrail]

46. I don't think he does... has Pastor Rick joined the American Nazi party?

I'm not aware of him being a member of the KKK either.
His views are abhorant... I don't think anybody here disagrees with that ... but he's not a member of either of those groups.

You should scream and yell about him.. and protest him.
But prop 8 showed that people like him have a LOT of pull.
It won by significantly more than a "slight" margin - and that was in Ca.
The margin in Fl was downright huge.

For better or worse Pastor Rick's views are representative of a large segment of the population.

The changes we all want just aren't going to happen if we exclude that big of a chunk of the population from the process.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

79. He's not, but he's a bigot, he believes women have no right to their uterus, and he's a homophobe

So since Obama is doing this to be INCLUSIVE even tho he may disagree, he should be inclusive of OTHER bigots (not just Rick Warren), such as the KKK, White Power, etc. All in the name of singing Kumbaya right? Isn't that Obama's intention?

[babylonsister]

39. Very apparent, but it doesn't matter. This isn't about Warren at all. nt

[ruggerson]

7. I think your concerns about Warren are quite legitimate

and I agree with Barney Frank. I think Obama will find out soon enough that the hardcore bigots on the religious right will not change their colors simply because we treat them nicely.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

10. Of course they won't. Obama is making a huge error pissing off his base in the hopes of winning

over a few bigots

[ruggerson]

14. politicians make errors all the time

this one is a doozy, because his entire inaugural is supposed to be a symbol of hope and change. Warren embodies neither.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

18. You're right. This error is massive. He'd better find a way to get out of it quick nt

[GarbagemanLB]

22. No, it really isn't 'massive'. He will have Warren pray. He will take office. He will

implement policy and sign legislation.

Calm and rational people realize the last part is where the 'massive' problems lie.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

24. Wow, you must really be in denial. You obviously aren't aware of what people everywhere are saying

and thinking.

[GarbagemanLB]

28. I'm not the one believing DU represents the majority of America.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

31. Honey, not just DU, you obviously read no papers, watch no news, and are an ostrich nt

[GarbagemanLB]

51. No, it really is just the liberal sites.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

78. I'm beginning to realize that you do think that way nt

[polichick]

17. At the risk of being stoned here, it shows a bit of hubris on his part.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

21. No doubt we made him haughty and self-absorbed. Maybe we went too much overboard...

we cried too much, we wore too many Obama Ts, we yelled too much when he spoke. He began to think he was God and could do anything.

[polichick]

26. Maybe that's it - he thinks he's Jesus (and so does Warren). lol

[Sarah Ibarruri]

32. LOL! He thinks he's something! nt

[countingbluecars]

30. Please don't ruin what appears to be

a healing, reasonable discussion.

[TheKentuckian]

41. We always have the bash them over the head option to fall back on

Its not the bigots but the ignorant and misinformed that are the target.
There is also coverfire factor that some find distasteful but I think it will be useful. A lil okie doak action for our "friends" on the right. Not tricking them exactly but a mild disarm that keeps them from going fully off the meter.

It may not work but that's life. There is no unscrewable pooch.

[yodermon]

83. So Obama must be aiming for the softcore bigots then . n/t

[countingbluecars]

3. Good post. n/t

[polichick]

5. I would add that it's time for Obama to apologize and make a wiser choice.

[ruggerson]

8. I agree

or, if he feels he can't, put a gay preacher onstage right before or right after Warren.

[polichick]

33. And of course you're right in your op - the alternative was UNTHINKABLE.

[TK421]

69. I never thought of that option...can they put another preacher on AFTER Warren?

or do they have strict time limits with guests at this inauguration?

[Shiver]

80. I was thinking during, actually

A joint invocation. Maybe get a rabbi and an imam - maybe even a brahmin and a bhikkhu, if they want to get wild, in on it as well. The invocation should not belong to any one religion.

Great OP, by the way. Kicked and recommended.

[Starry Messenger]

9. Excellent post. k & r

As highly painful as these episodes are to the gay community here at DU and at large, we are all richer for the words that are written here in response. I treasure posts like these. Bookmarked.

[leftofthedial]

11. I'm glad I voted for him

given the alternative.

I don't admire much of what he's done since.

I give him credit for stepping up into the vacuum that is king george's reign and showing some leadership, but I don't like most of his choices at all. The Warren fiasco is unconscionable.

[ThisThreadIsSatire]

12. Amen...

I aspire to someday achieve your level of simple, logical, eloquence.

Thank you.

[Autumn]

13. The alternative would have been unbearable

excellent post.

[Clovis Sangrail]

16. people on both sides of this have been idiots and insensitive

A lot of good people have been vilified ... and the tone of the 'debate' has been one that convinces very very few and instead seperates people into opposing camps.
While spewing vitriol may feel good sometimes this isn't helping anybody.

The sooner this episode passes the better.

[ruggerson]

19. When people's basic rights are up for "popular review"

I can't blame them for being furious. I know I am.

This was not just about Rick Warren. It was also about Prop 8.

[Clovis Sangrail]

35. I don't disagree with you

I was crushed, and extremely angry, re: prop 8
However, Obama has what he has to work with .. and doesn't need to be excoriated for this.

I agree with your analysis regarding this possibly pushing things faster than they otherwise may have gone.
It can be looked at as a game of chess.. in which case it does make one wonder about Obama's motives.

[Skittles]

64. he fucking deserves to be excoriated for this

it was a horrible, ugly choice - a huge blunder

[Clovis Sangrail]

66. maybe... maybe not

I'm guessing not but time will tell

[Skittles]

67. now you sound like bush

[Clovis Sangrail]

71. really?

I increasingly think you're incapable of rational thought or are intentionally offensive.
On another thread you completely denied logic and here you're comparing me to Bush??
because you don't agree with me?

This is a prime example of DU's biggest problem at the moment: people demonizing other progressives because they don't agree with them about tactics.
all this does is push people to opposing sides

be a smart ass .. change the subject .. make an actual agrument .. whatever ... but I don't think ANYBODY around here is like Bush and saying they are isn't a smart way to win anybody over to your logic.

[IndianaJones]

29. whenever someone starts saying "people on both sides" its usually followed by crap. nt.

[Clovis Sangrail]

38. you mean like how your post followed mine? /nt

[mondo joe]

54. It's amazing how quickly DU started to adopt the "Fair and Balanced" approach,

arguing that the truth is in the middle of two arguments, rather than actually assessing the arguments.

[MoonRiver]

20. Obama = THE ONLY POSSIBLE CHOICE

I still feel that way.

[PunkinPi]

25. Great post, ruggerson. K&R

[NWHarkness]

36. I worked my tail off for Obama

I spent, without exaggeration, hundreds of hours on the phones, canvassing door to door, organizing events, doing maintenance in the office, you name it. And all the time, I knew that when he won there would be occasions when he would disappoint me.

That's politics. If you can't handle the idea that the candidates you back are fallible human beings, you are in the wrong game.

In 2012, I plan to work hard to re-elect Obama, even knowing that he can sometimes be wrong. The perfect is the enemy of the good.

[scheming daemons]

37. I'm kicking this.... good thoughtful post, ruggerson

[Egnever]

42. I think you have been codled by america for too long

"I don't think anyone can "disagree" with the basic human rights of any group of people."

It has been going on for centuries and America is the closest any society has come to believing what you espouse. Shias and sunis, Muslim and Christian, black and white the list goes on and on your statement is woefully naive of the realities of the planet you live on. That or just plain wishful thinking.

You are not owed Equality you will have to fight and plead and cajole to get it. And no the majority of people even in this fine country still don't come close to seeing it your way. Fortunately our younger generation is much more amenable to the Idea of your rights so if it doesn't happen in Obamas first term by the end of the second I think the tide will have turned.


I am glad you voted for Obama as well. As you said the alternative was just not acceptable at all. Unlike you however I believe he will do great things in office including advancing the rights of GLBT folks. See I am a pasty white straight guy I don't need any of the equality you seek hell according to many my life is cherries and ice cream every day with not a care in the world. Despite that I voted for the Black guy because of the Hope and inspiration he will bring to millions that aren't the same color as me. I voted for the smart guy because I was tired of the dumb guys running the show. I voted for the mixed guy because I believe that his past efforts and experience show a willingness to see inequality and try to combat it. He doesn't share all of my beliefs and most of the reasons I voted for him will do nothing for me whatsoever. I voted for him because I thought he was the guy that best represented the little guy in the race not because I despised his oponent.

But we don't really like each other at all do we? So who freaking cares.

[xchrom]

43. i held my nose and voted for him -- nt

[Pirate Smile]

44. K & R

:thumbsup:

[hay rick]

45. K&R

[Rowdyboy]

50. Thank you for perhaps the most thought provoking thread I've seen on the subject

I agree with every word.

[TripleKatPad]

57. Great post, ruggerson

Wish I had your talent to say it as eloquently.
I feel distress about so many issues. I'm about worn out trying to keep a balance between hope and outrage.

[AtomicKitten]

68. I am too. ;)

I don't understand some of what Obama has done, some of the choices he's made. I can't predict what he's going to do, but I hope when his presidency unfolds that I see the man passionately committed to social justice I've read so much about emerge with the same extraordinary focus and discipline making what has seemed impossible possible.

Good post. K&R

[sellitman]

70. Nominated!

Well said.

[bluedawg12]

76. Warren is using Obama and is all over this opportunity.

[Akoto]

77. I'd rather two minutes of Warren than four years of McCain Palin, for sure. n/t

[bdamomma]

81. I will be much happier when he takes the oath.

[cali]

82. A very astute assessment, ruggerson.

I think it's probably the most spot on of any written about all this.

[grantcart]

84. There is another silver lining

The beltway insiders cannot say that Obama doesn't reach out to the other side.



well written OP

[NJmaverick]

85. Proud and very happy with the President Elect Obama

he is still on the road toward greatness.

[wryter2000]

86. Hear, hear

I could have written that myself if I were as smart as you and had the time.

:applause:

[gaspee]

87. I have mixed feelings

Obama didn't need my vote to win my state. I wasn't going to vote for him, but I did it anyway - I've never sat out a presidential vote (voted the first time in 1988.)

But now I feel foolish for having voted for him. Of course I didn't want McCain to win, but Obama didn't need my vote to defeat McCain.

Obama is better than McCain - that is a no-brainer. But he and I are worlds apart on many issues.

My big issue, as a gay human being, is that I do not enjoy the same protections under the law as heterosexual human beings. Period. There can be no other issue when one is not considered fully human.

As an anti-poverty activist, a socialist and a gay person, he's way too far to the right of me on political views - but Obama's got one thing right - he can screw us six ways to Sunday and get away with it because really, what choice do we have? Vote Republican? AS IF!

[BeyondGeography]

88. Wise and perceptive

K&R

[EFerrari]

89. Exactly. K&R