Wow. Just wow.

[Symarip]

I haven't been posting much lately in these places because I thought, well, I thought it wouldn't look like this. What on earth has happened to cause so much in-fighting? It's bad enough to have the concern trolls throwing around their oh-so-informative, 'in case you didn't know' posts or the ponderous 'what if' posts that draw irrelevant (or erroneous) conclusions thinly disguised in a question format. But today, I'm seeing something far different: fighting, and alot of it.

I'd never tell anyone to stop or start anything. I find posts that do are often very condescending at the very least. I can tell you though, from my point of view, this mornings activity looks like a freepers wet dream: threads upon threads of anger, lack of real debate and conversation, and attacks... Lots of attacks. I thought we got over this now that the Primaries have all but concluded.

May I interject in the conversation that Obama's move to the center was about as predictable as the sun rising in the East this morning. No Democrat can move left or farther left to win the rest of this country's greatly informed electorate. It just has to be done. I understand disliking this kind of behavior because it bothers me as well, but what other choice do we have? This veteran, for one, is not voting for McFatherTime and writing in a candidate is rather futile. Obama was our choice - the choice we got fired up about and the best shot at winning back the white house.

Secondly, I personally feel that Obama is pouring water on fires now than having to deal with scorchers later. Fringe issues such as patriotism can paint someone right into corner all by the power of suggestion. You can't quantify patriotism or valour or prestige and it's an easy shot for McCain and his buddies to take. It's more advantagious for them to change the subject to Obama's lack of patriotism than to talk about $4 dollar a gallon gas or a failed Republican economic plan, or a war that's never going to end. So it makes sense to talk about it now, put your foot down, and move on in the next couple days and weeks to area's we know we can win: a failed economy, rising gas prices, and oh yeah, two wars we're barely 'winning'.

Reading GD: P threads today, they just seemed so knee-jerk to me. I didn't think we were like this as a collective body. I won't urge anyone to do anything but all I can say is, wow. Just wow. This place seems very foreign to me.

(edited for grammar)

[Hope And Change]

1. Nominated!

[AspenRose]

2. K&R

:KICK:

[elocs]

3. Yeah, a Democratic presidential nominee moving to the center. What a revelation!

McCain could have easy campaign ads--just run all of the "constructive criticism" that Democrats have about their own nominee and say, "See, even his fellow Democrats do not think Obama is so good".

On edit, I just gave Rec #5.

[book_worm]

4. Exactly. FDR did it, JFK did it, LBJ did it, Carter did it--Clinton certainly

FDR used to say, "My left hand doesn't know what my right hand is doing." and visa-versa. This is politics.

[SwampG8r]

11. the GOP does the same damn thing too

just from the right to the center instead of the left
elections are won by garnering the votes of those who have no strong party affiliation

in the center
every vote is a swing vote
every state is a swing state

[Symarip]

12. Bingo (nt)

[FREEWILL56]

52. And they vote on what from what company?

[rhett o rick]

60. Clinton did it and never came back. Just sayin nm

[DWilliamsamh]

70. And he was STILL better than Bush. (n/t)

[rhett o rick]

74. Duh nm

[grantcart]

5. k and r

[Lost4words]

6. K & R !

8643

[mopinko]

7. i think they are smart. just like they changed his walk off music.

used to use stevie wonder's signed sealed delivered. now it is the boss. sad as i was to lose stevie, i heard that and thought- these guys just do not miss a trick.
people beg for someone to do something completely different, then bitch when they do. :shrug:

[1Hippiechick]

8. K&R - couldn't agree with you more - board losing its credibility :( n/t

[Adelante]

9. kick & rec

:kick:

[K8-EEE]

10. Getting harder to block out the noise.

If I see one more "Fuck this or fuck that" post here -- it's taken on the air of tantrumming. I'm going to try and just create an enormous ignore file with the tantrummers and see if that helps.

[cliffordu]

13. K and R

[midnight]

14. I'm having difficulty understanding a move to the center idea.

If Obama made a move to the center, where did he move from the left or the right? I'm thinking left, beccause many post say he has a liberal voting record. Now, if I understand that correctly, it would seem he moved more to the right, than to the center. I only have three reasons to back up why I think that...But I think they are pretty significant. Or they use to be when the Constitution was the way we governed this country....

One:FISA-don't spy on me, or my family...


Two:Faith based programs-Seperation of church and state please....


Three:Funding of the war-Just end it already-it was a lie.....

[Skittles]

36. they're saying we have to become repukes to win an election

they've been saying this for decades now and look what it has produced :puke:

[redqueen]

15. There's a lot of trolls running around.

And far too many trying to reason with them. One or two posts is all they're worth really.

[npincus]

16. pragmatism will win the day... GoBAMA!

keep your eyes on the prize, everyone!

[MNBrewer]

39. Pragmatism - what an uninspiring word.

[gratefultobelib]

17. Thank you for this sane post. I've been pretty depressed myself coming here lately. I was at

the speech yesterday in Independence and I came home just glowing. Then I logged on to DU and found endless carping about how Obama deepsixed Wes Clark. I didn't get that at all from the speech. Obama simply acknowledged McCain's patriotism and his own and moved on. He spoke for 30 min, no notes, no teleprompter, absolutely spellbinding. Okay, we were a partisan crowd, but you could feel the love!

[Bluerthanblue]

18. WOW yourself-

that was a great post.

The only bright side to the way things are here, is that I'm finding
the incredible negativity seems to be helping me with my addiction to DU-

The days are too short and precious to waste feeding our dark sides- at least mine are.

Thank you for your bright words, and observations.


peace~

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Symarip]

20. Aw.

That made my day. Thanks. :)

[Undercurrent]

21. Exactamundo!

[jgraz]

22. In 40 years, we've had three (3) Democratic presidential terms.

How's that centrist strategy working out for you?

[pberq]

25. That's the point

The myth of having to move to the center is just that - a myth.

What this is about is toeing the line for the big money people (corporations). They must be catered to for anyone to win in this corrupt system.

If we had publicly financed elections, we would not be having this conversation.

[jgraz]

26. Obama has de facto public financing, and yet we're still genuflecting to the monied interests.

Funny, I thought all of us peasants sending in $100 would make some sort of difference.

[rg302200]

63. Its been even money the past forty years

Kennedy, Johnson, Carter and Clinton

Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush, Bush

They have 1 up on us...get the facts straight!

And after Obama wins it will be even again....

[SheilaT]

67. I hate to be nit-picky, but

JFK 1960-1963 (that was more than forty years ago)
LBJ 1963-1968 (likewise more than forty years ago)
Since then:
Republicans:
Nixon 1968-1974 6 years
Ford 1974-1976 2 years
Reagan 1980-1988 8 years
Bush 1 1988-1992 4 years
Bush 2 2000-2008 8 years
Total 28 years
Democrats:
Carter 1976-1980 4 years
Clinton 1992-2000 8 years
Total 12 years

That's hardly even money. Even if you go back and add in the eight years of JFK/LBJ, you only get 20 years of Democratic presidents.

[jgraz]

69. And don't forget that in 68 we had huge majorities in the House and Senate

The Senate was 67-33 Dem (Veto-proof). Now we've just barely clawed our way back from 12 years of Repug domination of Congress.

The results are impossible to deny: the centrist Dem strategy is NOT working. It's really never worked. Yet here we are at another election and people are insisting that we use the same failed techniques that have lost us election after election.

See: Insanity, definition of.

[cbayer]

23. I think some people here watch too much TEEVEE and are being played.

I find it remarkable that multiple threads are started responding to some talking head or another who is spewing their garbage at that very moment. Many of the "ideas" expressed here appear to be coming straight from the media, and the media has a lot to gain by keeping us fighting.

When you are being fed this pablum all day, it might be hard to come up with an original thought or engage in a thoughtful debate.

[iamahaingttta]

38. Exactly!

Seems Democrats really are Dumbocrats sometimes, cause they get played by the media constantly!

Turn off the fucking TV, people!
It's not reality!
It's corporate propaganda, designed to confuse and piss you off.

Sheesh!

[On the Road]

24. The Only One That's Bothered Me Has Been FISA

All the others are par for the course.

Obama has not only done a good job of dealing with media controversies, but on getting out ahead of the issues and innoculating voters.

That's what was so great about the patriotism speech -- it wasn't an obvious response to the flag-pin/pledge-of-allegience issues because it came so much later. But it was obvious those charges would be brought up again and again. Obama chose a natural lull in the campaign just before July 4 to address patriotism, and seems to have done it just as effectively as the Wright issue.

[Symarip]

27. Like I said, some of it does bother me

But there's no sense in going into full spin and getting yourself in a tizzy over it. Remember how many mid-stream voters GW fooled with 'compassionate conservatism'? Yes, it's a little disingenuous, but sometimes the means justifies the ends. Personally, I plan on holding his feet to the fire when he gets an office and we have a majority in Congress. Until then, it does seem mostly par for course, as they say.

[AntiFascist]

28. As I tried to point out in another thread...

we have lived through the most disastrous 8 years of Republican reign in the history of the US. People now demand CHANGE, and if the compromising, triangulating Democrats cannot see this then they may suffer in future elections. This is not the same scenario as that which Clinton faced when he first ran for President. Of course Obama will shift to the Right after winning the nomination, that is the nature of general elections. But, he should not overreact and he needs to stay in tune with the political message that put him here in the first place.

[Symarip]

29. And that's fine to talk about.

I threw my opinion in the OP just to get it out there because personally, I'm not surprised. But my main point is we can discuss these issues and have an honest to goodness discussion. Instead, I've witnessed throughout the day basically verbal warfare and a shit ton of throw away threads either repeating what had already been discussed (or was currently being discussed) or, well, just plain bullshit.

What good is it to talk at each other? I'd rather talk with people, even if I disagree, than resort to thinking I'm better then the person I'm engaging with. I hate when people treat me like shit, so why would I do the same?

Furthermore, it's somewhat atypical of DU-ers. I know we can have great, heated, opinionated discussions. I was kind of shocked to see what all had gone on in just a few hours. It was sad and it bothered me more than anything I can ever remember since being here (minus one incident, but we're not going there).

[AntiFascist]

30. There is a big difference between constructive and destructive criticism...

now that Obama is the candidate we should be focused on supporting, I would think the Alert button could be used more. I usually filter the threads I look at by focusing on the Greatest Thread list. Hope that doesn't make me a thread elitist. :blush:

[sui generis]

31. there is a one-off dynamic

whenever a group of people questions anything (and I do mean genuinely ask a question for clarification or discussion) there is a group of people who play scorched earth here about Obama.

The fact is MOST of us sincerely want to understand who we're voting for and what his stances are. MOST of us are old enough to know better than to trust what we've been browbeaten into supporting. MOST of us are mature enough to know the difference.

But along with age and wisdom comes a lesser willingness to put up with browbeating and name calling from less well considered sources, so if young and dumb wants to fire a torpedo at old and evil be prepared - our knees jerk very very swiftly, if not wisely.

So yes, sad that it's about our interactions here rather than the originating issue, I do agree.

[lostnotforgotten]

32. Memo to Obama: Moving to the Middle is for Losers

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/memo-to-obama-moving-to-t_b_110026.html

Last Friday afternoon, the guests taking part in Sunday's roundtable discussion on This Week had a pre-show call with George Stephanopoulos. One of the topics he raised was Obama's perceived move to the center, and what it means. Thus began my weekend obsession. If you were within shouting distance of me, odds are we talked about it. I talked about it over lunch with HuffPost's DC team, over dinner with friends, with the doorman at the hotel, and the driver on the way to the airport.

As part of this process, I looked at the Obama campaign not through the prism of my own progressive views and beliefs but through the prism of a cold-eyed campaign strategist who has no principles except winning. From that point of view, and taking nothing else into consideration, I can unequivocally say: the Obama campaign is making a very serious mistake. Tacking to the center is a losing strategy. And don't let the latest head-to-head poll numbers lull you the way they lulled Hillary Clinton in December.

Running to the middle in an attempt to attract undecided swing voters didn't work for Al Gore in 2000. It didn't work for John Kerry in 2004. And it didn't work when Mark Penn (obsessed with his "microtrends" and missing the megatrend) convinced Hillary Clinton to do it in 2008.

------

Three Paragraphs per DU Rules

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HughMoran]

33. I like your perspective

Perspective.

How easily it gets lost.

[Political Heretic]

35. You pick a candidate in the primary, you get him elected in the general. There's a big difference.

General elections aren't the time to freak out when your candidate attempts to cast the widest net possible for votes. This should have been settled in the primary, and everyone should have had enough experience with elections (everyone here is not 18, are they?) to understand (and weather) how it has to be in the general.

Then you hold your candidate to account when in the White House.

[akbacchus_BC]

37. Totally agree with you. Let's get him elected and then hold his feet

to the fire. The Choices are clear, a Dem or a Rethug! Let's go for the Dem!

[bertman]

42. Pray tell me how you hold anyone's feet to the fire after they're elected.

how's that working out with Reid and Pelosi and Hoyer?


People love Obama because he's been the candidate of REAL CHANGE IN THE WAY HE HAS RUN HIS CAMPAIGN UP TIL HE STARTED VEERING RIGHT. He WAS drawing in the Indies and the Righties specifically because he WAS DIFFERENT.

Unfortunately, now he is becoming PREDICTABLE DEMOCRAT TRYING TO GO ALL CENTERY ON EVERYBODY.

That shit ain't gonna go down good with the folks who were feeling like they had THE REAL DEAL.

[Daemonaquila]

48. Bravo!

This is exactly the point. We have (had?) a candidate who *ignited* the country and received rock star adulation for running a unique campaign based on empowering the grass roots and a platform for meaningful change. The jury is still out whether it's a little good strategy or a bait 'n switch. But if Obama continues walking away from the principles that got him this far, why would he not continue in the same vein or worse as the pressure mounts in office?

[HughMoran]

49. Fuck it - let's elect McCain then

Remember fucking Nader & the nightmare called BUSH for the past 8 years!

[rhett o rick]

61. You tell me how we hold his feet to the fire BEFORE the election. What is your threat

to him? If you hold someone's feet to the fire, you need leverage. What's your leverage?? Voting for McStrange?

In the primary election the leverage is that you will vote for a primary opponent.
After the election the leverage is that you won't support the reelection.
During the election phase if you use the leverage of voting republican in order to "hold his feet to the fire", I don't want you on my team.

[BklnDem75]

77. People don't forget

That's why we're addressing Obama instead of Hillary. She made unforgivable decisions as a senator and that's why she's giving speeches promoting Obama. Winning the election is the goal. You don't win elections by forgetting the center. You don't have to like everything Obama does. You just have to remember it's leaps and bounds better than his opposition. Expecting a 'real change' from Obama is unrealistic at this point. He has no power as a candidate, so I don't know what you're expecting of him.

[tomp]

53. like we've held our representatives' feet to the fire since 2006, e.g.?

the mechanism of representation is defunct. they let us play with elections and let us think we have a voice then do whatever the hell they want.

obama will NOT change american politics. by running to the right he is showing he is playing the 2-party game the way it has always been played. he was too far to the right for me in the primaries, he's moving farther to the right now, and, i predict, he will move farther to the right after election.

kucinich was the man if change is what you wanted and we missed our chance.

[defendandprotect]

40. More "WINK WINK" . . . ?

[gsplfnk]

41. Oy. Just Oy.

So I see.

You are not concerned that Obama backed the unitary exectutive gambit by approving the FISA "compromise." Perhaps you're thinking he will need the FISA peephole to enact martial law?

And you are not concerned in the slightest that he was the most vocal cheerleader against Iran at the annual AIPAC meeting, now that Cheney and Bush seem poised to make sure Olmert gets his way?

And it's fine with you that Obama thinks child rapists should themselves be put to death for their crimes? That's the fair and balanced sort of punishment for the crime, right?

You see, it's not just that Obama has veered to the center. Politicians do that. That is your simplistic precept. The truth is, Obama seems quite willing to shred pieces of the Constitution to help insure his safe arrival at the center.

It's not simply that Obama disappoints. He horrifies.

[tavalon]

43. Yeah, I wrote a couple of comments about Obama doing what he needs to do to win the GE

and I've gotten so many nasty responses, I've stopped reading the replies. I think I got 15 total replies to 3 comments. I've never gotten that many for any but my OPs. And the ones I read last night were venomous. The ones today I just chose not to read. I've got better things to do with my time. People really do need to get their knickers unknotted.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[truedelphi]

45. The problem is Smarip, the central premise of your thesis is wrong

Wrong Wrong!

The population now stands like this

Democrat voters - 32 %

Republican voters 28% Total of above two groups 60%

and INDEPENDENTS - the people who will stay home or who will vote for Nader or Paul 40%

If he goes to the right, he loses the voters that recently came aboard. They probably ARE NOT gonna vote for McCain.

But they will STAY HOME in November. ANd that will make it easy to repeat the election theft of 2004, though they probably won't use Ohio again.

the idea of the candidate needing to tip to the right is out dated. It is an Idea that Hillary played to - and SHE LOST THE PRIMARY!

[redqueen]

72. Moving to the center in the GE is for the GE, not the primary.

So it's nothing to do with Hillary... and she didn't do it during the primary anyway.

[truedelphi]

85. I watched BIll Clinton stay rather to the left

All through 1992. And doing that got him elected.
And then once he felt he was a bit unpopular for promoting the notion of Universal Health Insurance, he moved to the right.


He took people off the staff looking into campaign finance reform and put them into fast tracking that friend of the American Middle Income Class - NAFTA. <sarcasm meant>
And then he shifted even more to the right because he felt he was UNDER ATTACK.

So under him, we had the Repugs with the Dems standing idly by, put through
the FCC Telecommunications Act of 1996.

And the Welfare reform package.

And the Banking Reform Act of 1999.

So under him, we bombed Serbia using DU. And the excuse for bombing Serbia, that Milosevich was a bad bad man, gave some support to Bush's wanting to take out Saddam Hussein.

And now, it's supposedly okay for Obama to let Bush dismantle the Constitution - as it will help Obama get elected.

[redqueen]

86. Your memory is failing you.

Clinton moved to the center... just as they all do, back to FDR.

*sigh*

[truedelphi]

89. FDR HATED IMPERIALISM - simply hated it.

And our involvement into the affairs of Serbia ranks as Imperialism, nothing more, nothing less.

He probably would have also been made quite ill by the sanctions against the Iraqis which resulted in 500,000 children dying each year in that country. One of W's arguments for his war against Iraq was that once the country stabilized there would be no more sanctions.

[redqueen]

90. He also shifted to the center during the campaign.

Just as JFK did, and Clinton did, etc. etc. etc.

[Laurab]

46. Thank you. K&R n/t

[Seabiscuit]

47. It's simple.

The borgs rule. Their message is simple: "Obey. You Will Be Assimilated. Resistance Is Futile. We Are Borg."

This board has become borgheaven.

[DaveJ]

50. K&R

[Iwillnevergiveup]

51. I read 100 pages

of "Dreams from My Father" last night in trying to get a handle on our candidate. It is quite incredible what Barack came through and what he figured out for himself. I feel that he is a very uniquely gifted man, not just an attorney or politician. And I trust his smarts and intuition to get this country back on track. Our most progressive Democrats like Ted Kennedy, Al Gore, Russ Feingold, Barbara Boxer, etc. will help him and bring him along. Understand, I came along the Dean-Gore-Edwards route, but this year I'll be voting FOR Barack and not against anyone else.

K&R

[Cary]

54. Oh ye DUers of little faith. . .

Your nightmare has lasted so long that who can blame you?

But, yes. We need to focus on WINNING THIS ELECTION. Fer crying out loud, is there any good alternative anyway? We all know that Nader has this one dead wrong.

Step One: don't let the "Conservatives" get in our heads, and GET OUR MAN IN OFFICE.

Step Two: after our man is in office, stay active and DEMAND GOOD GOVERNMENT.

[sui generis]

56. but also get to know who you're voting for.

What's wrong with that? I think there are so many people who view any questioning at all as dishonest or coming from an agenda that they forget the people they're laying into are DU'ers.

I have literally had someone tell me that they would try to get me banned if I didn't just "tow the line" (their mispelling) and stop questioning the candidate's policies.

Stupid little whelp, I'm wearing his balls for earrings right this moment.

Seriously, I have to believe that Obama does not operate in a vacuum, that his staffers read DU and more importantly that they read the input we give to the campaign as individuals. I want to know where he stands on my issues. I want to be excited about voting for him or have a real reason to vote for him with my nose pinched shut, either way.

I want to be an informed voter, and that means asking questions. I just think the sanctimonious crowd here is always shocked to learn that some of us have no problem or issue defending ourselves against juvenile attacks, and moreover don't care what they think or how many people are in their DU posse.

I like to view myself as a selective evolutionary pressure for those folks.

[Cary]

78. You will be wasting your time "getting to know who" if. . .

God forbid McCain wins.

What's wrong with rowing the boat in the same direction for awhile?

[sui generis]

82. WOW.

Actually I intend to vote for the person who best supports my issues. If it turns out that Obama doesn't then I won't vote for him.

That's gotta be clear as diamond.

I AM a democrat though, so even though chances are very very good (99.9999nn% sure) that I will vote for Obama, I am DAMN well going to ask questions every single step of the way.

That IS rowing in the same boat. Obama may walk on water and raise the dead twice a day before breakfast crap golden turds, but as far as I know his telepathy is broke, so I find myself having to use words.

[Cary]

92. I have no idea what you're trying to say, sui generis.

No one is saying that Obama walks on water or raises the dead, except taunting rightist wack jobs. I'm not saying that you're a taunting rightist wack job, but it's kind of true that you're either with us you're with them. I just don't see any other way around it, WOW, or no WOW.

[southern_belle]

55. K & R

The negativity around here is disturbing to say the least. :(

[Snarkturian Clone]

57. You're spot on. Great post.

You give me faith because I was starting to conclude that most DUers are one-note morons. I'm glad SOMEBODY understands something around here.

[WilliamPitt]

58. It's a first election for a lot of people.

[blondeatlast]

65. And if the Dems lose lose the WH and a larger majority, it may be the last one for all of us.

Sorry, but that's how I'm beginning to see it.

[WilliamPitt]

76. I'll bet you $100 we keep the House and Senate

The White House would have been a coin-toss no matter who we nominated.`

[Independent-Voter]

59. Hell yes! Anyone who doesn't understand this is willfully ignorant of politics.

[blondeatlast]

62. I know the feeling. I keep hoping to be able to dis McCain but those threads drop like bricks.

Very well put.

Thank you.

[rg302200]

64. K&R

This needed to be said....

[L0oniX]

66. The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice....

and always has been. -- Mark Twain's Notebook

We have a bastard Patriotism, a sarcasm, a burlesque; but we have no such thing as a public conscience. Politically we are just a joke. -- marginalia written in Clemens's copy of The Future in America

http://www.twainquotes.com/Patriotism.html

[Mark E. Smith]

68. Pretty disheartening, eh?

Don't they know that beating ourselves up only helps the GOP?

[jonestonesusa]

71. Why is constructive criticism considered beating ourselves up?

I am supporting the Democratic party this year as I nearly always do, with the exception of occasional third party votes. Obama's primary campaign made me more enthusiastic than I was in 2004, though I did get to see Kerry speak in August 04 and it was very energizing to participate in canvassing. But the Democratic party does not own my voice. And this is a discussion board. I think it strengthens my viewpoint, informs me better to listen to different opinions on our candidates and their policies. As much as I agree that it's an imperative for Obama to win the GE, I also think that dissent over campaign strategy (i.e. the largely failed DLC centrism) and over individual issue positions will help, not hurt. I think that liberals like me are often frustrated in this party because our presidential candidates do not stand up forthrightly enough for the values of the Democratic party. You can't win in the battle of ideas if you don't compete. And that is true despite the energy that the liberal wing brings through the Howard Dean campaign, move-on and the netroots, and now the Obama campaign.

So instead of policing thought on an open discussion forum, why not discuss the substantive points that people make from all perspectives in this party? It's ironic to me that it used to be Obama supporters that were dissed as "first time voters" or "politically naive," and now these labels are hurled at posters on the board who criticism Obama.

[Mark E. Smith]

79. Same old song and dance

Honestly, I no longer trust people who post as you have here.

And I don't believe anything you've said here. I don't know what your agenda is, or who you are, but I am treating what you've written with about the same regard as I would give to an e-mailed offer from a former Nigerian banking official claiming to want to transfer a few million dollars to my bank account.

Good luck with your "battle of ideas." And I hope you don't take this personally, but the Democratic Party has an election to win. And the drumbeat of distraction and whining from folks like you doesn't help in the least.

The voters have decided who our candidate is. It is time to bury your little dramas and get on board.

[jonestonesusa]

80. Your post speaks for itself.

Your post is full of personal insults, cheap applause lines, and dismissal. You even have the nerve to say "don't take this personally" in the midst of your condescension. That's your perogative, since it's an open discussion board. But I'm not wasting my time with further conversation.

[shagsak]

73. I'll K&R this

The time for unity is now! Regardless of whether Obama is left of center, right of center, center, he's far more left than JM. That's good enough for me. Considering the last 8 years ANYTHING is refreshing.

IMO Obama is a GREAT man and would make a GREAT president. He is an inspiring leader and one of the first many of us have seen in a long time. He has definitely inspired me.

But sadly, maybe America isn't ready for a great president. Maybe we still need that corruption in the bosses chair to make ourselves feel better or some sick equivalent. Of all the corruption surrounding Bush and his legacy, some are nitpicking about a great future president and his "inadequate" modification to a bill that the BUSH legacy implemented TO SPY ON US. Where were all these whistle blowers when Bush put this plan into action?

I agree, WOW. Just, WOW.

[rhett o rick]

75. At this point I can only K

[papapi]

81. Freepers take a holiday. DU destroys itself. Story at 11.

[Writer]

83. And you know what I heard?

Obama bought one of these.

[Symarip]

88. He is dead to me. (nt)

[sui generis]

84. good fucking grief.

the only people keeping the bad blood flowing here are the Disciples of Obama who just fling shit and run.

most of us are allowed to have an opinion and to ask questions and there is NOTHING IN THIS UNIVERSE you can do that is going to change that.

So if that's too much trouble and it seems like asking questions about policy and opinion are too much for the koolaid crowd to handle, have some faith:

the rest of us are almost certainly going to vote for him anyway no matter how much shit you spew about how we aren't in line with your ideas of worship.

Now run along.

[redqueen]

87. "the only people keeping the bad blood flowing here are the Disciples of Obama"

Riiiiiiiiiight.

[Symarip]

91. At what point did I

A) Fling shit and run?

or

B) Say, I want you to change your opinion?

or

C) Explicitly vow my complete devotion to the almighty church of Obama?

Ohhhhhh, that's right: I haven't, and I didn't.

I'd thank you for your post, but I'm afraid you might respond with an eye full of holier-than-thou bullshit (like the suckfest of a post above) which doesn't really motivate me to continue a dialogue between us.

You've proven your point. I super-duper appreciate you jumping to the conclusions you felt necessary in order to justify your snide and rather condescending remarks. You seem like a really swell person.