Kerry filing suit with FEC?!

[Sparkly]

I'm sorry if I missed that here and am repeating it...

Just heard on CNN -- hadn't caught it before.

[Beetwasher]

1. For the Swift Boat Nonsense???

Get the fuck out! No shit?

[Sparkly]

3. Wolf Blitzer just said it!

Stay tuned...

[Beetwasher]

8. WOOOO HOOO!!!

Put Bush on the defensive to deny his involvment!!! Suweeeeeet!!!!

[in_cog_ni_to]

2. YES!

It's coming up...BREAKING NEWS!!!! WooHoo!!!! :bounce:

He's filing a lawsuit with the FEC against the smearboat ads!!

[xyboymil]

5. Here is a link!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5772722/

LOL..it just keeps getting better!

[Sparkly]

9. Thank you! Check it out...

If Kerry’s team can establish that Bush adviser Karl Rove or any Bush campaign operative coordinated in some way with donor Perry or with Swift Boat veterans officials, that might result in legal penalties and damage the Bush re-election effort.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

43. That article doesn't say anywhere that he filed suit.

It just asks the question: "Can Kerry make a case that Bush broke the law?"

[wndycty]

7. If he loses the suit watch out. . .

. . .MoveOn.org and co. will really release the hounds.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

4. nt

nt

[Ducks In A Row]

6. wolf announce it at the top of his show

betting he'll wait until the end to say "yep, they're suing"

Thinking, they don't have the details, it's too soon, but they want the ratings of people waiting to hear more.

[RubyDuby in GA]

10. Suck on that you lying liars!!!

WHOOO-HOOOOOOOOO!!!!

[BlueEyedSon]

11. Do you all see the "live vote" on this page: Kerry with a 20 point lead!

K 59%
* 39%
N 2%

[wtmusic]

12. a risky move

It will likely be very difficult to prove a connection, and if the case is thrown out it will hurt Kerry

[ibegurpard]

53. I think it very unlikely they would take that risk

if they didn't have something substantial to go on.

[Bandit]

72. At the speed of most litigation nothing but noise will happen until after

the election but people will be aware there is reason to believe Bush* is behind this.

[tedoll78]

13. Question:

has there been a full investigation into the people who wrote and/or testified for the book?

phone records?
emails?
travel arrangements?
etc?

If there's a single point of interaction between the SwiftBoat Vets (or their publishers, or their funders, etc) and the White House, that's it. The media is already going after it..

[geek tragedy]

14. Could be an overreach--lawsuits aren't always a good PR tool.

On the other hand, if they have a smoking gun on the little pansy and his babysitters, look out.

[wtmusic]

30. O'Reilly vs. Franken, case in point n/t

[wryter2000]

58. You could be right

It's possible that if nothing is found, people will decide it means the "Veterans" are on the level.

I don't think this is the same thing as O'Really/Franken, though. Franken wanted the publicity. The "Veterans" would rather keep their sources of support secret.

[Sparkly]

15. Yesssssss

YESSSSSSs

[TheDonkey]

16. Damn, JK did his homework. Saying Smearboats illegally consulting w/ bush

and RNC.

This should shut the thugs up.

[Sparkly]

21. He must think there's a case there

or at least enough to put the Chimp on the defensive.

He is, afterall, a prosecutor!! :)

[markus]

34. Hey, he gets to depose Bush

This could be fun.

[lapfog_1]

17. Maybe, just maybe

Kerry's campaign has been silent about the not-so-swifties because
they were gathering EVIDENCE against the BFEE... that would be just
so awesome!!! Even a phone call between Rove and the woman who is
the spokesperson for the not-so-swifties... Or even better, some
written documentation or email between the campaign and the
not-so-swifties!!! YEAH. God I hope it's true. Please, please,
please let this be true.

[Beetwasher]

18. Yup!

Hehehehehehehehehe!

[Sparkly]

19. Hey, lawyers out there... What's an "agent of the campaign?"

How far down can that go?

[geek tragedy]

24. An agent, legally speaking, is someone who has the legal authority

to act as someone else's representative.

For instance, an attorney is an agent of his or her client.

An agent-principal relationship arises usually out of an explicit agreement.

[Sparkly]

26. Oh, so it'd have to be somebody not only employed by the campaign

but somebody high enough up to speak for the campaign, yes?

[geek tragedy]

29. Yes, somebody with the authority to act on the campaign's behalf

A person can serve as someone's agent for one purpose but not for another.

For instance, a P.R. person may be retained to speak on behalf of a company or campaign and have the authority to do so, but may not have the authority to negotiate contracts on behalf of that same company.

[Sparkly]

33. It'd be a dream if we have a "mole" or source inside the campaign

who can supply proof...

Well, I can dream...

[geek tragedy]

41. They have to have something on them, I would think.

I wonder if they did a FOIA on White House phone records or something like that.

[Sparkly]

54. Could they have done that?

What about all the privacy given the WH about energy meetings, etc. etc... Does the FOIA require disclosure of campaign phone records or emails and such?

[geek tragedy]

59. I don't know the rules on that.

But I trust Kerry + Edwards in their legal judgment.

[Sparkly]

60. I'm seeing on the MSNBC they only need "probable cause."

If as a result of its investigation, the FEC finds probable cause to believe the law has been violated, it tries to settle with the culprits, for example by getting them to agree to pay a civil penalty.

Lawsuit would be next...

Kewl... :)

[MallRat]

20. I wonder if THIS is why he's filing suit.

From the MSNBC front page.

If the FEC comes to the same conclusion that the NY Times does, the Bush campaign is going to be sucking wind down the home stretch.

-MR

[Sparkly]

22. Difficult, as they'd have to prove conversations took place

Discussions between the group and "an agent of the campaign," however that's defined.

But it'll get people investigated, and put them on the defensive.

[MallRat]

50. Who gets fined? The campaign or the 527? Or both?

If the 527 or its members aren't in jeopardy of being in violation of election laws, then the FEC could subpoena every single member of SBVFT, and there's nothing they could do to stop it.

Merrie Spaeth, John O'Neill, Bob Perry, Tex Lezar... the whole fucking bunch of them could be hauled in for testimony.

:-)

-MR

[tedoll78]

23. What's especially reassuring..

is that Kerry has experience in prosecuting. Surely he's smart enough to know that if he wants to make this accusation, he has the evidence to back it up!

[Sparkly]

25. Exactly.

For the first time, I feel sorta glad we've got a ticket of two "trial lawyers!!"

[VirginiaDem]

35. Legal question

What laws would be broken? Excuse my ignorance here but I'm confused. Would it be campaign finance laws that separate the campaign from the non-campaign ads? What exactly to they allow/prohibit?

[geek tragedy]

46. The campaigns can't coordinate with Sec. 527 organizations.

Moveon.org isn't legally allowed to coordinate with Kerry's campaign, and the Smearvets aren't legally allowed to coordinate with the Dauphin and his chaperones.

[VirginiaDem]

57. got it--thanks! eom

[Hamlette]

78. the Dauphin and his chaperones

I may NEVER stop laughing. Best nick name yet!

[tedoll78]

51. Funny thing..

it'd be McCain-Feingold. The one that the Chimp himself signed.

Delicious, ain't it?

[iwantmycountryback]

27. They better make sure the case is solid

This type of thing could definitely backfire. I'm apprehensive. If they do get em though, that's fucking awesome.

[Sparkly]

28. I don't think they even need to win it.

I think it's enough to cast doubt, publicize the connections between the BFEE and the Swiftboat Liars, and put the Chimp on the defense.

[iwantmycountryback]

39. It could work out that way

But Kerry may be seen as trying to prevent people from speaking... Ah screw it, this can't be bad for Kerry.

[Beetwasher]

45. Exactly! There's No DOWNSIDE To This!

This is playing the REPUBS game people, exactly like all the Kerry critics have been whining about, except Kerry's doing it with the truth!! The allegation is OUT THERE and it damn well IS TRUE. There's not a shred of doubt that the SBV's are and have coordinated w/ Rove.

NO DOWNSIDE EVEN IF HE LOSES THE CASE!

[sampsonblk]

64. I Hope It Works

GOPers will claim the judge is liberal. We know that. But if Kerry's side keeps fighting as hard as they have been this week, this could be great.

[blondeatlast]

71. First law of litigation: NEVER ask a question you don't know

the answer to.

Relax; they have something and it's BIG.

Remember that John Kerry was a very respected prosecutor before he became a Senator.

[Hamlette]

79. Kerry a prosecutor and Edwards a famous plaintiff's attorney

if they brought this complain without the goods, they don't deserve to be lawyers, let alone president.

They must have the goods.

[joefree1]

31. The Swiftboat liars are sunk

If they got sumthing.

[Skidmore]

40. That's what happens when you put a bunch

of elephants on a small boat.

[joefree1]

49. Or a bunch of fat Rove Rethuglican goons

Blub, blub, blub, .....

[mourningdove92]

32. This is the man we want to be President of our country.

While I admit, initially this suit made me a bit nervours, but we have Kerry a former prosecutor and Edwards a very successful trial lawyer, one would hope they have the goods. At any rate, I am quite sure that Bushco never expected this.

I am hanging on with faith here that Kerry/Edwards have what they need to make this successful. If so, then the fat woman will sing.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

36. Kerry's a lawyer. If he wins...

look out. America will have a bona-fide fucking dragon slaying, ass kicking HERO!

[xyboymil]

42. LOL..and I hear his VP candidate isn't a bad lawyer either...

;) ;) ;)

[blondeatlast]

73. Pardon, but, he doesn't need to win this for that to be the case...

That's what this whole thing is about!

[yellowcanine]

37. Can't be a lawsuit - FEC is not a court - must be a complaint.

All Kerry has to do is show some connection. This won't get resolved until after the election but it will raise awareness of the connections between the swifties and the Bush campaign, particularly Rove. Hurts Bush bigtime because there ARE lots of connections even if no actual collusion. Same is NOT true with Moveon.org and Kerry. Good on Kerry.

[Beetwasher]

52. BINGO! HELLO KERRY BASHERS!

Hello! Kerry bashers! This is the hardball you've been screaming about!!! HELLO!!!

[Sparkly]

55. Ohhh, so I titled this all wrong -- I was so excited when I heard Wolf

I thought it was "lawsuit." So who decides on the complaint? Who makes up whatever part of the FEC would decide this? And what's the process -- lots of public investigations and inquiries, I hope? :)

[paulk]

61. it also keeps the comparison

between Bush's service and Kerry's on the front page - which is good for Kerry.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[blondeatlast]

44. The big guns are out on our side, and let's not forget who has the

experience using them!

[Sparkly]

47. Kerry should say, when criticized for responding "slowly"

"I tried to keep this all on the high road to the point that I was even criticized by some in my own party, but I wanted to give my opponent the chance to specifically disavow and condemn this series of attack ads. He didn't do it, but chose to obfuscate; so I had to make my choice to fight."

[Piperay]

48. TERRIFIC

nail those asses hides to the wall!

[MallRat]

56. Kerry must have something on them...

You don't file a complaint with the FEC in the middle of campaign unless you're reasonably sure you'll be successful.

I think there's a smoking gun here, folks. And Kerry is going to let the Bushies talk themselves into a tizzy before he reveals his hand.

Remember the fight over the Kerry military records? Remember how stupid Bush looked when Kerry released them and they corroborated his background?

It's deja vu, all over again. Sit back and watch, folks. Kerry is about to carve up the Bushies.

-MR

[Joe Turner]

75. The best Smoking Gun is a material witness on the Bush side.

Someone who is/was a principle in this scandal and for whatever reason is willing to name names and has the proof to back it up. If so it would be absolutely devestating to the Chimpster and his Goon Squad. It would be John Dean all over again.

[klook]

77. Sure hope there's someone with a conscience who'll talk

Maybe that guy who expressed regret after participating and changed his story a couple of times. (George Elliott?)

[Rowdyboy]

62. Thank everyone who posted above...You guys really got my spirits

up now. I was a little worried that it might look like Kerry was trying to stifle free speech. That could conceivably backfire. You guys reassure me that thats not the take most people will have on it.

Thanks :thumbsup:

[klook]

63. Link on cnn.com

Kerry files FEC complaint against critical veterans group

(CNN) -- The Kerry presidential campaign on Friday filed a complaint with the Federal Election Commission, alleging ads from an anti-Kerry veterans' group are inaccurate and "illegally coordinated" with Republicans and the Bush-Cheney campaign.

The complaint was filed against Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. It states that "based on recent press reports and SBVT's own statements there is overwhelming evidence that SBVT is coordinating its expenditures on advertising and other activities designed to influence the presidential election with the Bush-Cheney campaign."

More: http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/20/kerry.swiftboat/index.html


Sorry if this was already posted above, but I didn't see it.

Edited to include headline & some of the text from cnn.com.

[democratreformed]

65. On DU the other day, Magistrate said SBVFT was not a 527.

He said they were formed as an older type of group. Does anyone know for sure? If they're not a 527, what are the implications of that?

[Sparkly]

66. Don't think that's right

"The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is organized as a non-party, independent political group under Section 527 of the Internal Revenue Code."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5772722

While on the subject, however, I've heard MoveOn isn't a 527, but a PAC, somehow different. --?

[democratreformed]

67. Thanks. Now, I'm really confused. LOL

I'm doing some research... will get back to ya.

[democratreformed]

68. definitions:

527 Group – A tax-exempt group organized under section 527 of the Internal Revenue Code to raise money for political activities including voter mobilization efforts, issue advocacy and the like. Currently, the FEC only requires a 527 group to file regular disclosure reports if it is a political party or political action committee (PAC) that engages in either activities expressly advocating the election or defeat of a federal candidate, or in electioneering communications. Otherwise, it must file either with the government of the state in which it is located or the Internal Revenue Service. Many 527s run by special interest groups raise unlimited "soft money," which they use for voter mobilization and certain types of issue advocacy, but not for efforts that expressly advocate the election or defeat of a federal candidate or amount to electioneering communications.

Non-Federal Group – A group set up to raise unlimited contributions called “soft money,” which it spends on voter mobilization efforts and so-called issue ads that often criticize or tout a candidate’s record just before an election in a not-so-subtle effort to influence the election’s outcome. 501(c) groups and 527 groups may raise non-federal funds.

Political Action Committee (PAC) – A political committee that raises and spends limited "hard" money contributions for the express purpose of electing or defeating candidates. Organizations that raise soft money for issue advocacy may also set up a PAC. Most PACs represent business, such as the Microsoft PAC; labor, such as the Teamsters PAC; or ideological interests, such as the EMILY’s List PAC or the National Rifle Association PAC. An organization’s PAC will collect money from the group’s employees or members and make contributions in the name of the PAC to candidates and political parties. Individuals contributing to a PAC may also contribute directly to candidates and political parties, even those also supported by the PAC. A PAC can give $5,000 to a candidate per election (primary, general or special) and up to $15,000 annually to a national political party. PACs may receive up to $5,000 each from individuals, other PACs and party committees per year. A PAC must register with the Federal Election Commission within 10 days of its formation, providing the name and address of the PAC, its treasurer and any affiliated organizations.

[democratreformed]

69. Moveon is listed as a 527

Link to top 50 527s at opensecrets.org: http://www.opensecrets.org/527s/527cmtes.asp

[Sparkly]

74. Thanks!

I'm still confused, anyway! :)

[ItsMyParty]

70. Got a feeling they don't care if it's a win, lose or draw

...the idea is "FREE" publicity that will blare on every newscast. It's the only way to get coverage against this onslaught. The media has been showing the "controversy" and giving these jerks free ad time, so to speak as they do stories. This is John's way of stealing the air time back.

[MissB]

76. The MSNBC headline is beautiful

Attack Ad Connection: Swift Boat vets linked to Bush