Can't understand why Kerry agrees with Bush so much? Some Thoughts...

[KoKo]

have come to mind since I've had such a hard time with this myself.

The possibility is that Dem Party "strategy" is to agree with whatever the Repugs/Bush puts out there but to carefully couch agreement with wording which changes the emphasis. Kerry's so called "waffling" can also be seen as a careful "spin" of whatever the Repugs say, by appearing to agree but leaving a qualifying window open to later disagree.

By doing this "agreeing" he is turning the criticism away from himself and back onto Bush. It, cleverly, doesn't allow the media to make him or the Democratic Party the issue. Since we all know the media is still making Clinton the issue because they aren't getting any Democratic resistence then why give them the opportunity (which we know they are dying to take) to destroy Kerry the way they did Gore.

By adopting this strategy the Democratic Party is taking a huge gamble that the "angry left" (me, and others here) will not "bolt," because they assume we know how serious this election is going to be and that we are the ones who are the most informed of the seriousness of what we are up against. So, the possibility of attracting Independents and Repugs who are disgusted with Bush are, in the end, worth taking the chance of a "Left Bolt," to Nader or the Greens.

Another benefit of this "strategy" whether intended or by accident is that by creating more anger on the Left, it allows those of us who are angry to organize (Dean/Kucinich Movement) and create a strong left "grassroots" the way the Repug Right angry with "Liberalism" came together under Gingrich's energized leadership and the ravings of the Falwells and Limbaugh's eventually took over the party.


I also think that under "the strategy," Ted Kennedy has been targeted to be the spokesman for the "Angry Left," to take some of the pressure off Kerry having to address our issues with Bush/PNAC policies. This makes perfect sense because the Repugs and the Right Wingers hate Kennedy, anyway, and there's not much else they or the media can do to hurt his reputation or his status in the Senate.

Kerry was not my candidate. I'm sick over what appears to be his support of Sharon and will never get over his vote in support of the Iraq Invasion. But,by making Bush and his failed policies the issue and not Kerry or the Democrats we take away the strongest weapon the Repugs have. It wipes away the use of the dreaded "L" word when the Democratic Candidate appears to agree with the "basic" policies of the Repug Candidate. The mis-use of the "L" word has hurt us as much as the "Clenus." And, the Mainstream Media are the ones who decide the elections these days, helped by the Supremes and voting machines, of course but if the numbers are large enough then then even the machines and the Supremes would have a hard time pulling off a coup a second time.

I will support Kerry by voting for him. But, in the meantime, I'm working here in NC to try to get grassroots support for the Dean/Kucinich wing of the Democratic party. And our NC "Caucuses" are this Saturday, where I will be standing out side our polling place with a petition to confront the NC Dem Party to stop it's exclusionary practices against "grassroots candidates" and requesting that a portion of the budget go to outreach efforts in our local community.
We are trying to get Dean delegates to our State Convention and eventually to the National Convention. Our effort is to try to have an influence on the Platform at the Convention for the "Left Wing of the Democratic Party."

I'm not going to get too concerned with what Kerry is saying or not saying. I hope this works for him and the DNC/DLC whose job it is to get him elected. I'm more concerned with the future of our party. Just getting Kerry elected isn't going to solve the problems we have in this country. We have much work to do cleaning up the messes of decades of both parties. We have to win this one any way we can. It's what happens with our influence when Kerry gets in there that will make the real difference. IMHO.


Ideals are like stars: you will not succeed in touching them with your hands, but like the seafaring man on the ocean desert of waters, you choose them as your guides, and following them, you reach your destiny.

[gWbush is Mabus]

1. it's politics

bush is so far right that anything just a ittle bit to the left gets the left-of-right, the middle, the right-of-left, and the left-of-left

[yardwork]

2. You make some very good points.

Kerry has a history of being a devious political opponent.

I keep thinking of 1972, when Nixon was reelected because the press painted McGovern as an "unelectable" liberal.

In 1972, like now, we were in the middle of a disastrous war and there were rumblings about corruption in the White House. Nixon was reelected anyway.

I don't think that Kerry wants to follow in McGovern's footsteps.

I totally agree that it is what happens after the election that really matters. We need to get serious about health care, alternative energy, and the environment. We need to put back the healthy economy we had before * and his thieving buddies wrecked it.

[Classical_Liberal]

3. Alot of the stuff he is doing doesn't so much gain votes

as it just represent pushing around us Dean/Clark/Kucinich types. It only serves the shriking TNR wing of the dems. It looks to me like Kerry is taking the position that only the Iraq part of the foreign policy is wrong, and I think we have a systemic problem with foreign policy. The support of Sharon is just as misguided and just as ruinous as the Iraq war. They are both products of the delusional neocons.

[sangh0]

4. IMO, that is a thoughful, nuanced, and responsible position to take

Good work, KoKo

[AntiCoup2K4]

10. The Hell with "nuanced" ! Give us the damned truth!

i'm sick and tired of hearing
things
from uptight-short sighted-
narrow minded hypocritics
all i want is the truth
just give me some truth
i've had enough of reading
things
by nuerotic-pyschotic-
pig headed politicians
all i want is the truth
just give me some truth
no short haired-yellow bellied
son of tricky dicky
is gonna mother hubbard
soft soap me
with just a pocketful of hope
money for dope
money for rope
i'm sick to death of seeing
things
from tight lipped-
condescending -mommies little
chauvinists
all i want is the truth
just give me some truth
i've had enough of watching
scenes
of schizophrenic - ego - centric
- paranoic - prima - donnas
all i want is the truth
just give me some truth

[library_max]

12. What's so impressive about this

is that KoKo1's original post was full of truth, but not the "truth" this poster wanted to hear. "Tell me the truth" increasingly means "tell me I'm right." That attitude was the basis for the Neocon takeover of the Republican Party, and now it's getting a foothold on the Left as well.

:scared:

[sangh0]

15. I call it "The Rise of the Authoritarian Left"

and it seems to be contagious on DU.

How many times have DUers described criticism of their opinion as "censorship"?

[Classical_Liberal]

17. It looks like he ws responding to Sangha not koko

.

[library_max]

23. What did Sangh0 say except to agree with KoKo01?

Looks like a distinction without a difference to me.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AntiCoup2K4]

25. You must not read many of my posts, Max.

Because while your last sentence was entirely correct, that is NOT what I'm saying at all.

First of all, I just posted some John Lennon lyrics. Appropriate because they were written during a time when this country was involved in a useless unjustifiable war and the politicians from both parties were lying their asses off about it. Or "nuancing" in some cases.

Ironically enough, John Kerry was there. Seems like he's forgotten all the lessons of that time though.

As far as truth instead of nuancing, I did mean that. The neocons have lied and continue to lie about their motives and it doesn't matter what face they put on their agenda, it's the policy that's insanity, and it's that insane policy that won't change if Kerry is elected. But very few people seem to be speaking the TRUTH about that.

[library_max]

26. The TRUTH = agreeing with you.

The more of your posts I read, the clearer that becomes.

[AntiCoup2K4]

31. No, the TRUTH means exactly that.

The truth is that Iraq was NEVER a threat to the United States.

The truth is that the USA is no safer with Saddam Hussein in custody.

The truth is that there will be no end to the Iraqi occupation on June 30, or any other date in the forseeable future. And the truth is that PNAC planned it that way.

the truth is that Bush fucked up, but only after so called "Democrats" - including John Kerry - enabled him to do so.

The truth is that neocon shitbag traitors have far too much control in BOTH major parties in this country, and that if we don't stop this bullshit right now, the current mess in Iraq will multiply across the globe until even World War II looks like a Mormon Church picnic by comparison. Don't believe me? Read the part in the PNAC agenda where CHINA is mentioned on the list of countries they wish to invade.

The truth is that neocon global fascism is neither liberal or conservative in nature, and there is nothing "progressive" or even moderate about it.

The truth is that this cancer needs to be removed from our government immediately, or like any other cancer, it will spread quickly to the point where death is inevitable.

[library_max]

36. The TRUTH = agreeing with you.

The more of your posts I read, the clearer that becomes.

BTW, I agree with your first two statements. But even your opinion and mine added together don't equal THE TRUTH.

[KoKo]

38. yes...both parties are guilty of this. We need to "clean it up." Gotta

move on with this. That's why it's so important to have a "Plan" after the Election. We can't sit back and "wait for things to get better."

The Lines are Drawn here. Nobody is going to help us but ourselves. AND, nobody is going to listen to us unless we have POWER! We need to get that "Big Voice" out there.

[sangh0]

27. A false dichotomy

the opposite of "nuance" is not "truth"

Another example of how the authoritarian left mirrors the right. Bush thinks "nuance" is deceptive, and so does AC2k

[AntiCoup2K4]

33. It is deceptive

Because when Kerry "nuances" something, it's usually because he doesn't have the balls to actually take a stand one way or the other.

[sangh0]

34. Nope, you've been deceptive

with your "nuance" = "lie"

[library_max]

37. No, not deceptive.

I'm sure he believes every word he says. More's the pity.

[Pastiche423]

14. Lennon's words

were illuminated in the campaigns of Dean and Kucinich.

Kerry's words are those of the neo-libs.

Who holds more power in Washington?

Whose words go against TPTB?

Whose words and actions will keep us at status quo?

It really isn't hard to figure out.

[sangh0]

16. "It really isn't hard to figure out"

if you choose candidates by their theme song.

If you care about the issues and how they affect people, it's gets a little more complicated

[lindashaw]

5. I've have thought pretty much along these lines for awhile. It's

political suicide to get entangled in this Israel/Palestine thing right now. Kerry can't change anything; all he can do is destroy his chances. I would do exactly as he has done and say that this could offer some opportunities. Almost anything can offer opportunities if it is handled properly. So, I'm going to trust his instincts for political survival.

[ugarte]

6. The common wisdom says the Nov. election will be won by taking undecideds

from the center, so I can see why Kerry is gravitating toward the middle, but just as Bush throws red meat to the Far Right to keep their loyalty, Kerry needs to give the Left SOMETHING.

I can see a number of hot button issues that would not hurt him in the center and would still fire up those of us on the Left: namely, he need not OPPOSE the war, but he should definitely bring up the likelihood of a DRAFT. NOBODY wants their kids drafted to fight this war, and Kerry should be all over this issue,

The second, the big domestic issue, is health care. Even people finding jobs are not finding health care, and those with it live in fear of losing it. This is THE middle-class issue that Kerry could use to clobber Bush and the fat cat drug industry.

Both these issues could be winners for Kerry and the Demos.

[Gman]

7. Why would you "bolt"

when the choices are so obvious? If you honestly think Kerry would be no better than Bush, I'm sorry, but you don't have a grasp at all on how desperate our situation in this country is right now and how any Democrat (except Zell Miller) is better than Bush. Even John McCain is immensely better than Bush. In fact, I could name quite a few Republicans that would be immensely better than Bush. I don't mean to be harsh, but you need to really get a grip on just how dangerous it really will be if Bush is reelected. Kerry or Bush? There really is no other choice.

One clue: Its the people that are surrounding Bush. Compare the Rumsfelds, Rices, Negropontes, et al to anyone Kerry would surround his self with. And there's no difference? The people surrounding Bush are members of the most dangerous criminal element ever to set foot in the WH.

[KoKo]

11. Gman, you didn't read my post, did you....Fess Up. You didn't read a word

Shame on you! ;-)

[Gman]

30. "I will support Kerry by voting for him."

Gee, you stuck this sentence way at the bottom of the post...!

[tinanator]

8. you be sure to ask Kathleen Brown how well it works

Because it doesnt, hasnt, wont, couldnt, will not. The crux of the biscuit. Check your price tag please... is that a Sears poncho?

[JCMach1]

9. Good analysis-- if this follows through, then expect DLC

for VP.

Or, would he throw the base a bone a la Cheney...

Still doesn't make me a happy camper though.

[library_max]

13. Brilliant post, 100% correct in my opinion. /nt

[Freddie Stubbs]

18. He doesn't agree with Bush on abortion

[Classical_Liberal]

19. Do you?

?

[Freddie Stubbs]

21. Nope

[Classical_Liberal]

22. Glad to see you advocate at least one liberal policy n/t.

[Freddie Stubbs]

28. I never said that I was liberal on the issue

I don't agree with Bush. But I don't necessarily agree with Kerry either. I am between the two of them.

[Old and In the Way]

20. Bush ran to the center to get elected. Than governed as a far

RW extremist. Kerry is also running to grab the center....and, if we can get majorities in Congress, we will swing the pendulum in the other direction.

[library_max]

24. Another excellent point. /nt

[Zinfandel]

29. I'd liked him better in the seventies, he'd never agree with Bush then

on these same issues.

[blm]

39. Longtime, admitted centrists are NOT the left wing of the party.

Kucinich and Kerry are two of the more progressive Dems in the party. Kerry's lifetime liberal rating is even higher than Kucinich's.

You can believe those centrists who recently donned the mantle of the left to woo voters, but, I trust the actual record accrued over a lawmaker's entire career.

[KoKo]

40. Another one who didn't read my whole post.

:-(

[Feanorcurufinwe]

52. Or, maybe, just maybe, she did, and just disagrees with your silly premise

Why don't you try giving people the benefit of the doubt, rather than automatically accusing them of not reading, or not being involved?



Try debating ideas instead of trading insults.

[ibegurpard]

54. Ideas?

Like one of your polls? You are hardly the arbiter of what is "silly" or not.

[ACK]

41. Good post and I got comments too

Secondly this is exactly what you need to do.

Listen all you leftists out there! KoKo01 has your freakin' manifesto right above in the original post.

I like Kerry. I admit but I also admit that I am big pragmatist.

The man is left of Clinton, Lieberbush and the way the DLC ran Gore last time.

Listen we are talking about trying to free ourselves from the demon oil. Imagine Clinton or Lieberman saying that? I damn well thought not.

Neither Clinton the second time or Gore really had a healthcare plan. Kerry is talking about it. This is good people.

At least he is talking about modifying NAFTA! At least he does not support FTAA thank goodness. There are plenty of hardcore DLC'ers that would not even go there.

I think Gore would have been just as good or better than Kerry is going to be on the environment but Kerry has always voted the right way on this.

Do I like everything Kerry stands for? Hell no, I got significant differences.

Is he as left as Kuicinch or Nader? Heck no, I see that. I admit that.

But he is a small tiny miniscule step in the correct direction.

Ok, the Dem establishment has taken all the wrong conclusions from the success of Clinton. They are convinced if they keep moving to the right and just do not act the corrupt fool that they can win back the Reagan "Dems". They are wrong.

You have to forge a new populist progressive voice. You actually have to take your message to the hated sheeple and do the end run around the whore media and use the new media to its most effective end while at the same time getting out in true old fashioned grassroots efforts for the face to face unless you want a people's movement without the people.

Was the DLC right that some issues needed to be moderated on for the national stage? Yes in small part.

There are three issues that Americans are extremely conservative about:

1. Gun control. Bait the extremists with gun safety laws but otherwise on the national stage bite your tongue. America likes their guns.

2. Death penalty. The American people want revenge and believe in an eye for an eye. Outside of a safe liberal district you better be ready to make a hard decision about this one.

3. Strong military. This is the fun one. Clinton cut pentagon costs, closed bases etc..etc... He still won re-election. How? Don't frickin' talk about it endlessly. Do because you have to balance the budget or something else. Give half the money you save from any cuts to military families or something. Just never, ever, ever, ever talk about the military being anything else besides #1.

Everything else go wild.

Foreign Policy. Personal liberties. Trade and Commerce.

Remember Mondale. He once said that the American people in polls agree with 95% of the Democratic platform back in the liberal days of the Dem party. Why did they still fail?

Well, you can go all freaky liberal but be ready to explain outside of typically used liberal phrases.

People talk about Kerry talking Senate talk in his speeches. Well people here talk intellectual liberal talk a lot here. When you are taking the message to the people you have to be able to -- duh -- talk to the people.

Find the populist voice. Study Clinton and Edwards not for their positions but the way they connect and talk to the crowd.

Oh yeah, political candidates need to either be charasmatic like Edwards or have the serious common touch like Truman. Remember Dukakis. He had neither.

Also remember one final vital thing. The thing that my grandfather always remembered about the GOP. That is the fact the GOP is the party of the monied interests.

If you go populist you have to peg them for this.

Like my grandfather use to say, "The Republicans don't care nothing about nobody except the rich man."

I have never seen anything in my life to make me think different. Capitalize on this hard.

+

[KoKo]

42. Your comments are interesting. Need time to digest. Just got back from

NC Caucuses where I was pushing Dean/Kucinich agenda. Trying to get enough support for them to get Delegates to the NC Convention. So, I've been out of touch with this post and just now catching up.

Thanks! You gave me some points to think about and didn't just do a quick scan and post and "move along" thingy about my post! :-)'s to you!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

43. It just cracks me up when somebody talks about the 'Dean/Kucinich wing'

of the party...

[KoKo]

50. It may "crack you up" but they are there and they are real. I just spent

a whole day with them. And, I'm a "Bi." We/they are making a huge difference. Maybe if you get out and get involved you will see it also.

Go onto your local Dem Party and get involved by becoming a Precinct Chair/Co-Chair. It's easy to do. You will learn alot.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

51. They are there, but they aren't in the same wing.

I have no problem with Kucinich's views for the most part, but Dean is WAY to the right of me as well as the majority of Democrats.


Go onto your local Dem Party and get involved by becoming a Precinct Chair/Co-Chair. It's easy to do. You will learn alot.

I'm already involved with my county party. I find it interesting that you find it necessary to imply that I'm not.

Try making your points by responding to what people say, instead of your speculations about what they do or do not do. You will learn alot.

[KoKo]

55. Should have qualified it as the "Activist Wing" of the Dem Party....sorry

Dean/Kucinich supporters are the "activists." I didn't make that clear.

Glad to hear you are active. :-)'s

[seaglass]

44. But didn't you in essence take a Repub position when you

discussed on this very board the possibility that you might leave your church because they allowed a gay bishop?

I don't want to falsely accuse anyone, but I'm pretty sure it was you. Please correct me if it wasn't.

[KoKo]

45. Hope Lives...yes, it was me who did the "Gay Bishop" post almost a year

ago. What does that have to do with this post of mine though? :shrug:

[seaglass]

47. Something you said pissed me off and I posted in haste.

It appeared you were purity-testing Kerry and I abhor that, since none of us, including myself are pure.

If I could take it back I would, the point wasn't worth making.

[KoKo]

48. I was really trying to show why we shouldn't be angry or impatient with

Kerry in my post here. It was a long post, and I think many folks didn't read it all, but just assumed for some reason that I was posting a Kerry bash. I'm sorry that you got that impression. If you have time ,please go back and do another read. It isn't what you thought. Or, let me say, I didn't intend my post to be what you thought reading it.

:shrug:

[seaglass]

53. I reread it that's why I said I posted in haste. Yes, your

post was long and had a number of points. On the whole I disagree with your point that Kerry agrees with Bush. I think the charge of waffling is doing it's damage - even people in my own party believe it.

I don't have a problem with Kerry moving more to the center because I expected it. But I thought we all expected it; other than Kucinich every candidate running would have done it if they wanted to win. It is a risk if those on the left decide to bolt or sit home just like many on the religious right did when Bush moved to the center, but it is a risk Kerry has to take.

When I look at polls, I have a hard time believing that the undecideds are either on the left or the right, I think they're the waverers and I think there is also a percentage right now in Bush's numbers and Kerry's numbers that could be moved to the other candidate. These are not hard-core rightists or leftists.

That's it, you had a lot of points but those are just a few of my not-posted-in-haste thoughts.

[genius]

46. Kerry doesn't have Kucinich's backbone.

He will probably govern a lot like a Republican-lite because of the fear of being a real Democrat. If he had more courage, he'd do the right thing. He does know better. If people like Kerry are afraid to be Democrats, maybe it's time to dissolve the party and infiltrate the Republican Party or form a Real Democrat Party.

[KoKo]

49. He may be better than what we think. If he is, it will be because he

really does have "liberal" roots, and because the Dean/Kucinich's will keep his feet to the fire on issues.

I just spent all day in NC at our Caucus Polling place with "Dean buttons pinned to my jacket on the left and Kucinich stickers on my right shoulder. I had so many folks talking to me as I stood out side our polling place. I always was a Dean/Kucinich DU'er but didn't get into all the debates here, because I supported them both.

I think that "grassroots is springing up" all over America. I saw it today in NC. You wouldn't believe the difference the Dean/Kucinich folks made at our Party Convention for Wake County in NC where we went for another 4 hours after manning our polling place.

It's been a long day..but even though Kerry is our candidate, and John Edwards got the most votes in NC, still Dean/Kucinich/Sharpton got a respectible vote but got the most "Precinct Delegates" who made a huge difference in the Resolutions and Platform which go to the NC Democratic Convention.

Even though it looks like we are losing sometimes...we are winning on the ground.

Kerry is a compromise. We will need to grow strong like the Repug Right Wing did by building our "grassroots." They won't see us coming until we've taken over. That's the message I got from my experience today, here in NC standing in the sun hawking Dean/Kucinich and a Petition to get more funding from our state Dem Party for Grassroots efforts and then a long time at the District Convention.

We will have influence some day. And we need to keep working. Kerry is not Bush, and he's a "serious man for a serious time." He wouldn't have been my candidate, but he may be the candidate for the times we live in. That's what my post is about. How can we live with Kerry when we have so many questions. I tried to say how "I could live with him" and why I think the Dem Party "WANTS" to live with him. :shrug: