interesting article in TIME on possible Kerry '08 run

[WI_DEM]

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1039699,00.html

I wasn't a huge Kerry supporter in the primaries, but I do think he has earned another shot at running for the nomination. 59 million reasons perhaps. Bush won by the narrowest margin an incumbent president ever. This isn't that I would necessarily favor him for the nomination in '08--it's too early for that, but if it came down between him and Hillary Clinton as many think, I would probably favor Kerry.

[Big Kahuna]

1. Oh please.. no

ugh.

[WI_DEM]

2. now, now if he runs it doesn't mean he will necessarily be

nominated.

[Mass]

14. Vote against him in the primaries if he runs

if you still think that in three years.

Frankly, this article bothers me more because it is a clear sign that there is a fight in the Senate for people to be the more influential and this is simply bad politics.

[pauliedee]

113. Kerry is the best choice for president PERIOD!

He's still fighting the Bush agenda ...I like his grit

Got my vote in 2008 :kick:

[BlueIris]

127. This is so how I feel. I can't imagine

getting excited about the candidacy of anyone else for president ever again, including the junior senator from New York. I supported Kerry because I became convinced that he was the one. He had exactly the right experience, the right perspectives and the right values to be effective as president at this crucial time. By the end, I didn't think there was anyone else anywhere in the country who would have been a better nominee, or would do a better job in the White House. '08, if we make it that long, will present the person charged with leading the nation from there with a much more complicated set of the same problems along with a whole host of new ones and I still feel strongly that Kerry is the sole person best suited to tackle this mess. There's nobody else I trust.

[bunny planet]

140. Me too. It's about time Dems showed some loyalty and stuck with a

candidate. He has been the shadow President ever since * stole the election this time. He also has already been smeared. They can't get away with it again. A new candidate will just give them a clean slate to 'swift' somebody else. I'm certain Kerry has learned from his mistakes last time around. He will be formidable next time. He was and will be a great candidate and I will happily vote for him again. He would be a very strong, intelligent, compassionate President. We need to bring 'integrity' back to the office, for real this time. Let's just hope there is an America by the time the blivet gets through with his 'reign of freedom'.

[NYCGirl]

156. They can't get away with smearing him again? Don't be naive.

They have truckloads of smears they haven't used yet.

[bunny planet]

170. I'm not naive. I just don't think it'll work again. It really didn't work

the first time. They still had to STEAL the election, remember.

[NYCGirl]

172. Of course it worked. It was close enough to steal, wasn't it?

The right has truckloads of "oppo research" against Kerry they've been saving up for a long time.

[bunny planet]

190. Whatever.

You obviously don't believe in Kerry. I do, difference of opinion.

I think that their 'truckloads' of oppo research will not work this time. Same old same old, and His Fraudulency will have had some time to drive home the point once again that he is totally (W)rong for America. All they managed to do was take advantage of the fact that Kerry focused on his Vietnam record in his convention and bring out the same tired vindictive little man, John O'Neil who had been laying in wait for Kerry since 1971. What other 'ammo' do you think they have, if they had it, they would've used it. They'll try and manufacture more I'm sure, but will people buy it again. I doubt it.


And actually if you pay attention to the exit polls, Kerry won by quite a nice margin. Yes, it would have been great if he had a landslide vote that they couldn't have messed with as easily, I'll agree there.

He might just do that next time given the chance.

[arewenotdemo]

179. Agreed. Murkans will really despise Kerry when they learn

that he hates them for their freedoms.

Clark/Dean in '08.

[fob]

183. Paulie, I was upset with the "quick concession" (my words) as anyone

but you may be right. There has been article after article since the election that has shown Kerry to be 100% on the mark with his comments. It's a little surprising that I paid real close attention to his message and yet I learn things each day that he was on top of.

Examples;

Kerry says bush* planning "January Surprise" SS raid (Kerry said this in OCTOBER 2004!)

Kerry campaigns on bringing in allies - bush* flips and adopts Kerry's plan

Kerry talks about holding 2-party AND 6-party talks with NK - bush*co ridicules idea then turns around and sends US rep to talk to NK rep alone

In a more general format;
Kerry states issue - bush* lambastes - bush* flips and moves on Kerry plan (Lather, Rinse, Repeat)

[mrgorth]

3. I was a Deaniac

I'll take Clark.

[Clark2008]

63. Grassroots, baby.

Clark all the way.

[pauliedee]

114. Kerry has the grit to run and win if given the chance

He has better domestic and financial experience than Clark ,,,:kick:

[politicasista]

4. Oh the GOP just laughs at us

treating our former nominees like crap. (LOL!) It's too early though.

[roguevalley]

5. Who knows? He just won't have my vote.

[politicasista]

6. How sad

This is why the Dems will continue to lose elections.

[Dave Sund]

9. Making the same mistakes twice?

Yeah, I realize Kerry would have a better chance in 2008 than 2004, and I'm not necessarily opposed to him running... But I think there are better candidates out there. I'm going to vote and campaign for the Democratic nominee, whomever it is. But I'm still figuring out who I will initially support.

[LittleClarkie]

31. The flipside to "Making same mistake twice"

is "we were right in 2004, and nothing has changed." Rather than chasing the next electable guy and trying to woo the values voters as if all we wanted was to win, refielding the same guy says that we don't think there's a damn thing wrong with our values, we're right where we need to be. I'm hoping after another three years of Bush Co. the rest of the country will have figured out we were right in 2004. I see some hope of that in the Schiavo case, as a majority sees blatant politicking instead of standing up for values.

John Kerry, the "I told you so" candidate.

AND personally, I thought he would make not just a good president, but a great one, and so I still want to see him in there. Badly. Very, very badly.

That said,
1. anyone has the right to run, so I don't quite get the "he's earned the right" or "he hasn't earned the right".

2. It's too damned early. Even Kerry's more focussed on 2006 than 2008. He's setting up a non-profit org to help reframe the issues and get some Dem Congressmen elected. Plus he's got Gov. Romney to deal with. (and I've gotta save my Dem Gov.) So 2006 should be the main focus right now.

3. I'm seeing these kinds of threads as being more and more pointless. We're not going to convince each other.

I personally prefer the threads where we hear that Hillary gave a speech, or Clark formed a PAC, or Kerry introduced legislation. That tells me more about who I'm going to be campaigning for come 2008 than a thread that simply says "Clark in 2008!" or "Why not Kerry?" Sadly, even the more informative threads deteriorate into primary 2008 battles, regardless of the original topic.

That's a shame. I don't support Hillary in 2008, but I'm happy to hear about her election bill. If I see a thread about her latest speech, I'm not going to suddenly shout "Fuck her in 2008!" Sort of a non-sequitor, really.

I do hope, however, that folks can be open-minded, and watch what each person does without prior prjudice or animosity. I'm not holding out much hope, because some DUers have quite the bug up their butts about one candidate or the other, sometime with good reason, sometimes with bitterness that I don't udnerstand.

I guess the negativity is getting to me somewhat. The same cast of characters comes out and says either "Yea!" or "Fuck that." I mean really, look at the thread. Are you surprised by anyone's stance.

If people like what one of these guys have done from now to 2008, they'll vote for him or her, simple as that. Do we really need to fuel each others fire by starting up primary wars now? I don't know about you, but I don't respond well to the hard sell. And that's what I feel like I'm getting sometimes. Ya shouldn't have to sell a candidate as if he were a used car.

I just wish the media would give it a rest. And I wish we'd give it a rest too, but somehow I don't think that's gonna happen.

[pauliedee]

117. Kerry still fighting hard for us

We need him more than ever :kick:

[XemaSab]

11. because we put up candidates who alienate the base?

how true....

[saracat]

20. Excuse me? Kerry was "the base" He was the only liberal in the race.

He didn't alienate the base. And the "base" turned out for him.There are those who say if he "had" alienated the base' and abandoned what Democrats believed, that he would have gotten more votes. As it is, he likely won. Many Republicans are even coming to the conclusion the election was stolen. To even imply that Kerry alienated the base is ludicrous. I suppose that is why the "base" overwhelming ly voted for him in the primary. Sheesh.

[pauliedee]

119. Kerry still strongest democrat

He is the one the GOP fears....:kick:

They remember how bad he made Bush look in the debates...

[LittleClarkie]

33. What base?

I don't think we lost the Democratic Party base in the last election. That wasn't the problem. Not to mention that I don't think DU is representative of the base. I think the base is more like folks like Ed Schultz. We're a bit to the left of the base, I think. Kerry was a decent fit. Clark would have been good. Hillary is sliding to the right of the base I believe. Edwards was almost too far left, though not that bad. I don't know what Dean was considered by the base, but perhaps a bit too in your face, is all, for some folks anyway.

[Clark Bayh 2008]

151. yes, it's sad...

doesn't anyone remember Adlai?
everyone agreed he was smarter, more seasoned... a better
politician...  but he LOST.  TWICE.  because Ike was a regular
guy, war hero/general.

Why are we even debating this?  There is only one issue the
country votes on during wartime.  And the war on terror will
go thru 2016.

Wes Clark.  Nuff said.

[Goldeneye]

10. Is it because he's not a fighter?

I'm genuinely curious.

[kerrygoddess]

29. Kerry was not the ..

Navy man who turned the boat back onto the shore to fight during Vietnam. Oh yeah, he's no fighter. Yep, look at how he has backed down since Nov. In a virtual conrner, we don't hear a word about him. He's not doing diddly for us.

Not his idea for Kids First. Not him who led the Artic Refuge fight, talking about it and writing OP/Ed's about weeks before anyone else in the Senate spoke up. The Cantwell/Who bill?

Kerry didn't grill Condi for hours during her confirmation hearing. Nor did he issue a statement on Wolfowitz or Bolton, like the others who didn't? Where was BB's statement or Hill's statement on Bolton or Wolfie?

That's right Kerry's no fighter. He's a do nothing Senator like the rest of them.

[Goldeneye]

37. um...ok.

I'm not sure how your post was intended so I'll just say that I'm a Kerry supporter and if he runs in 2008 he's almost certainly got my vote. I was asking a question of another poster who doesn't support Kerry for whatever reason.

[kerrygoddess]

39. Thought I'd just clarify ...

that he is for naysayers who don't know better.

[Goldeneye]

41. I just didn't want ot be confused for a Kerry naysayer.

:D

[kerrygoddess]

44. No Worries! N/T

:)

[pauliedee]

120. Kerry still in Bush's face / fighting hard for us

He's the one the repugs fear :kick:

[BlueIris]

130. Well, he would be. He's been doing that for a long time.

Kerry's tangled with this bunch several times now--he knows what they are. That's another reason the neo-cons are afraid; he understands them.

[pauliedee]

115. Kerry a GREAT leader who'll fight the repugs to the death

I don't doubt him for one minute...I got his back in 2008 :dem:

[gasperc]

7. he's got a soapbox between now and then

let's see how effective he is at rallying people to our cause

[pauliedee]

121. doing a good job so far

:kick:

[kerrygoddess]

8. It is a good article with a touch of snark...

John Kerry: The Eternal Optimist
22 March 2005

Although the article in the new issue of Time about John Kerry could not manage to do with out a touch of snark, it’s a good read. Among notes of interest were the acknowledgment that he is using his email list “of more than 3 million supporters to promote causes he championed as a candidate” and that “Kerry plans to write a book on his views on national security.”

Here are a couple quips from the article, The Eternal Optimist:

Besides stumping and writing, Kerry is hoping to curry favor within the party by donating some of the $14 million left over from his campaign fund. He offered a vote of confidence to former rival Howard Dean, giving the national party $1 million when Dean took over as chairman. He donated $250,000 to the recount effort of Christine Gregoire, who eventually won a very close Governor's race in Washington. Venturing into local politics, he will probably endorse Antonio Villaraigosa in a runoff election for mayor in L.A., choosing a loyal supporter over incumbent James Hahn. "He gets to travel and gets to pick up IOUs," says former party chairman Steve Grossman, a Boston fund raiser who served as Dean's campaign chairman.

Kerry is also embracing the Senate with new fervor. Derided as an absentee Senator by Bush and other critics in 2004, Kerry seems almost everywhere on Capitol Hill these days, introducing bills to expand health care to all children, enlarge the military by 40,000 troops and rewrite election laws to allow any citizen to register to vote on Election Day. "I'm in a position to be more effective on these issues," he says.

MORE - http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/blog/default.asp?view=plink&id=603

[XemaSab]

13. I remain completely disturbed

that he had so much left over.

The vote was so close, who knows what difference it may have made in Ohio, Florida, or any number of other close states? Even narrowing the spread in red states or helping other democrats in lesser races would have been a good use for that money.

But no, he had to sock it away to curry later political favors.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm ABK in '08.

[liberalpragmatist]

19. He wasn't legally allowed to spend the money

They were funds from his pre-convention campaign. After the convention, once he took public funds, he couldn't use a dime of that money.

And $14 million out of $1 billion spent by both sides on the campaign was a drop in the bucket.

It could have been donated to local campaigns, but tens of millions had already been donated and nobody asked for anymore.

Gore finished his campaign with about $7 million.

If you want to find a reason to dislike Kerry there are plenty of other (more valid) reasons. The money thing is a non-issue.

[sandnsea]

21. He couldn't spend it

After the convention, he couldn't spend any of that money. He had to spend the public campaign money only. It's a good thing we've got money for 2006. I don't know what in the hell people are bitching about.

[sandnsea]

22. wrong place n/t

[pauliedee]

122. Election laws froze the primary raised funds

I understand....besides he's been supporting dems all over the country with cash since...:kick:

[lojasmo]

12. I reclaim my "reason" please subtract one. EOM

[Mass]

15. Too early to speak about 08

And not surprising that Time had to go with their negative article about Kerry (using a positive title so that it is not so obvious).

[Joe Chi Minh]

43. Kerry's their worst nightmare.

Imagine if the election had been straight, what the composition of the Congress, and the way he'd have turned America around for the people. *All* the poeple.

They'll always be on the lookout to find weasely ways like that, to damn JK with faint praise.

[pauliedee]

123. Kerry strikes fear in the GOP

I agree....they don't want to face him again :kick:

[Clark Bayh 2008]

148. sad & laughable...

ludicrous...
the GOP looks forward to facing anyone from the NE...
Kerry brings no red state to the table....
A Clark/Graham ticket would have won... 

the fact that this discussion is even going on is indicative
of why the dems lose presidential elections... they don't play
to win....
and now we have bush picking the next supreme court justice..
sad... 

[Discord]

60. applause!

[Leilani]

16. Arguing with Harry Reid about strategy

not popular in the Senate...

& I should support him?

He's tainted by his campaign with his failure to fight back. He left all Swiftboat accusations on the table. Why?

[Mass]

17. So dont

But I sure hope somebody is going to argue with Reid on strategy. This is a catastrophy. There is nothing glorious being on the same side as Tom Delay and Frist on this Schiavo story, for example. With 70 % Americans against them, this is even not necessarily a good strategic position to keep quiet.

As for the fact that Kerry is not popular in the Senate,

1/ I love unnamed sources,

2/ that does not disturb me at all. Except for a few senators, (Boxer, Feingold, Durbin, Lautenberg, and my two senators) that I really like, I really dislike most of the Senate crowd.

[kerrygoddess]

25. Oh please

Now Harry can do no wrong?

[karynnj]

42. The arguing with Reid was an old story

with anonymous sources - the week it was in the news (I thing the Washington Post), Kerry was on the SS tour with Reid, Clinton, Durbin, Lautenberg, and Drogan (?) At the NYC stop, they were on CSPAN it was great, they were all positive, all said nice things about each other, and all explained different parts of SS - it worked really well. Afterward, you could see them talking to each other. The other thing was that the WP article said one source said Reid made a crack about the campaign, but the 2 other sources denied it.

The nobody likes Kerry talk has always been said, but watching C-SPAN he doesn't seem to be either Teddy Kennedy, who all the Democrats talked to or one of the Senators no one approached - he does seem to vote quickly and say hi to other Senators and leave pretty quickly. I think that because any number of Senators plan to run, think they may run sometime, or have run in the past, you probably have people who know they may be rivals. This may cause people to have allies, rather than friends. I don't know if Clinton, Biden, McCain, or Frist are more popular.

[LittleClarkie]

110. You should support anybody your heart desires

I dunno though. Why is he not popular. I wonder if it's because some of his investigations encompassed his fellow Democrats. Nobody likes a fingerpointer.

I wasn't popular in school either. If he's not popular among his peers either, it rather endears him to me.

[knight_of_the_star]

18. One word

NO

I voted for him because Wes Clark asked me to.

I was a Clark man last time around, I will be pushing him again this time.

We don't need no stinkin' losers.

[sandnsea]

23. I'm voting for NOBODY but Kerry

And I'm going to make sure all 3 million Kerrycrats don't vote for anybody but Kerry either. So there. And if he doesn't get the nomination in 2008, I am going to find every nitpicking thing about whoever the candidate is and I'm going to bitch and moan about it, day after day. And whatever the Republicans come up with for their character assassination campaign, why by god I'm going to repeat that ad nauseum too.

Wohoo, this is a helluva alot of fun! It is soooo much easier to piss on Democrats than fight for change, it really is. Thanks for teaching me the art of the circular firing squad. You get to pat yourself on the back because you rant and rave, then blame somebody else when nothing ever changes. I get it now, I really do!

[kerrygoddess]

26. HaHa! Me too!

It's easier to trash someone than to support them. It makes us feel superior. We don't really want change. If we did we would have learned by now to keep our mouths shut.

So I think I will become part of the base of Dem party that bashes rather supports our candidates. The more the merrier.

It's always better to take the easy way out...

[zulchzulu]

28. I quite agree

While it's WAY too early to discuss if Kerry will run, he will indeed have my support and vote... as many who like Kerry a lot can attest to, the more you know about him, the more you know he deserves to be president.

And it would be easy to play the nit-picky droid that would pick apart whoever the Demo candidate might be and repeat Repuglifications ad nauseum to maintain what seems to be the tradition of the circular firing squad within the Democratic Party.

[LittleClarkie]

I bow to your purity

You are the uber lefty. All hail sandnsea! She will be a comfort to us all, a beacon of policy perfection that we can follow like lemmings into the sea. Bow down and worship her. She is your god.




(caffeine ....caffeeeeeeine... I neeeed caffeeeeeeeeine! Oh to be a church bulletin printer on Easter week. Sleep? What is sleep?)

[sandnsea]

34. Gee

Did you lose your sense of humor or did I lose mine?

[LittleClarkie]

35. Errr... I thought I was following along in your vein.

It was an assist at the net to help you slam dunk it in there.

It WAS a rant against overemphasis on purity in the party, wasn't it?

Ahem.

Heh.

Told ya I need caffeine. I didn't go to bed until 6 this morning.

Um, I'll be rocking back and forth in a corner of the cyber pub if anyone needs me. (shrinks and scampers off)

[sandnsea]

36. lol

Guess I need the caffeine. Or the choclate covered WMD. Or something. hehe.

Thanks...

[pauliedee]

124. Kerry is still strongest democrat

Well said....all the back stabbing weaklings always need to blame the candidate...instead of looking within....Kerry kicked ass in debates and was great on the stump....Wartime incumbency helped the idiot win wiht OBL's help :argh:

[Skidmore]

24. I don't want to hear about 2008 until someone demonstrates

that they can push for a legitimate election cycle in 2006. I absolutely do not want to hear about someone being a saviour for this party.

[sandnsea]

27. That's the damned problem

SOME people keep saying we have to organize, we have to get on the same page, we have to focus on things that are important. That we can't depend on a handful of people in D.C. to be the change.

SOME people took Kerry the Eternal Optimist to restate the need for US to BE the hope.
http://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/dispatch/2005-03-18/cols_ventura.html

"A closing note on this… I have always seen John Kerry as an optimist, which is one the reasons I feel so strongly about continuing to support his work in the Senate. Sandy posted a great piece yesterday about a column from Michael Ventura in the Austin Chronicle. In the column, Ventura talks about hope and the fact that we are the hope. I always felt that John Kerry knew that when he told us “Hope Is On The Way” and “The Change Starts Here.” We are the change and the hope.

We must all find the strength to foster that eternal optimism that serves John Kerry so well and embrace our own optimism. With out optimism and faith there is no hope."
http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/blog/default.asp?view=plink&id=603

Others just sit around and gripe about the lack of a saviour.

[kerrygoddess]

30. "Some men see things as they are and say why"...

"I dream things that never were and say why not?"

John Kerry says why not?

John Kerry recognizes that "The Change Starts Here" and if people in the Democratic Party don't change and stop the bashing, there will be no change.

If the people in the Democratic Party don't learn what the Republicans already know, which is not to attack their own, there will be no hope.

If people in the Democratic Party don't get up off their asses and start organizing and start building up our party then we might as well turn the country over to the neocons for good.

"There's work to be done in America and it's time to put Americans to work doing it." - John Kerry - http://www.johnkerry.com/audio/whatitsworth.mp3

"We need you to march for the future of America."

[Discord]

59. adding another amen here...

[RepublicanDemocrat1]

32. Kerry

Well I certainly hope he runs. He would be a MUCH better person for the job than Hillary, who everybody knows will probably win. Let's pray that he will want to run. His moderation inspires me.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[paineinthearse]

38. Westin Hotel, Boston, February 9, 2005

The original Mayor Quimby, in introducing JFK, said: "John Kerry's 2008 Presidential campaign starts here tonight". This was reported in the Massachusetts forum.

[kerrygoddess]

40. We're ready!

:thumbsup:

[dsc]

45. Bush's margin was the second narrowest

Truman's was narrower.

[marcologico]

46. Bush "won with the smallest percentage margin ever for an INCUMBENT." n/t

[dsc]

134. Truman was the incumbent

incumbent means you hold the office which Truman did (for nearly the whole four years). The word you are looking for is elected incumbent.

[marcologico]

138. Tell it to the fact checker.

I'm directly quoting the article, which incidentally is NOT directly quoting Kerry.

[dsc]

189. I don't believe that I said anything about Kerry

nor did I say anything about you. But the fact checker and thus the fact is wrong. Truman, an incumbent President, had a smaller margin for his election than Bush did for his reelection.

[marcologico]

47. Funny how they don't mention that Hillary is running for reelection in NY

at the moment, not for president.

Gee, they wouldn't be trying to confuse us intentionally would they? :eyes:

[Clarkie1]

48. Not all of those 59 million votes were for Kerry.

Many were against Bush.

In 08' we are going to need a candidate that more people want to vote FOR, not in oppostion to a divisive sitting president.

[kerrygoddess]

49. Oh lookie...

It's a Rovian talking point!

Gosh I just love these...

Let me see if I can dig up a few on your man... That's right! There's plenty to go around for all... so you just keep spewing them, because you know what goes around comes around.

In the meantime, some of us are smart enough to know that the man with the proven record it far better than a long shot.

Oh and those 10's of thousands who came to those rallies, screaming "Kerry, Kerry, Kerry" they were all just an illusion.

[Clarkie1]

53. no, they were certainly not an illusion.

I'm suspect they would have been there whoever the candidate was, given the divisiveness of the past election.

Kerry's a great man, and I know he inspired you and still does.

The political reality is he didn't and doesn't inspire enough. It may not be fair, but life's not fair, and neither is politics.

I appreciate the work you doing keeping us updated on Kerry's work in the senate. We are fortunate to have a lot of great senators.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Discord]

73. could you ask yourself that too please.

at least his post was civil.

[kerrygoddess]

78. I'm trying to make a point...

Beacause I don't attack other politicians here. It was sarcasm!

[Discord]

82. kerrygoddess... PM incoming.

[wisteria]

72. Divisiveness had nothing to do with the crowds of people

who came to see John Kerry and what exactly do you base your reality on? Who would you suggest could inspire us? Surely not the lot of democratic candidates Kerry left covered with dust. Being president is more than being able to shout your ideas at people or to be able to discuss military tactics. The main reason Kerry lost was over war and fear. John Kerry still maintains a lot of popularity on blog sites and among the general public. He has the vast knowledge necessary to be president and would represent our country with honor and dignity. These facts are actual realities.

[Discord]

75. ummm crowds of people turned out to see

just about all of the nominee's up until which point they conceeded. And obviously you bought the media bias hook... line... sinker.

Watch a REAL viewing of the "dean scream". Not the edited version with the crowd noise removed. You'd see a much different scenario than the one you bought into.

[wisteria]

86. Actually, I watched and listened to his whole speech that night.

I too think he was mocked and ridiculed unfairly by the MSM. Dean is certainly an exceptional man. His passions and opinions certainly come through loud and clear. I just believe a presidential candidate-any candidate- along with other traits should be a little more subtle and even tempered.

[Discord]

89. I personally like to see that.

it really does represent how many of us are feeling inside.

to see passion at least shows that he cares about it enough to get fired up about it.

I think he will make a good DNC chair.

[Discord]

65. sorry to burst your bubble...

I would have voted for Mickey Mouse against "*".
Many many many of us did the same.
To believe otherwise is a disillusionment.
the ABB sentiment was much more prevalent than anything Kerry had on his invisible platform.

[Discord]

62. here here!!!!

[LittleClarkie]

102. Perhaps many, but no one yet has shown me a poll

that clarifies how many. It's all antecdotal. Until I see some numbers I will stick to my perception that it was not a "most" situation. Oh, I think many started off ABB, as I did as well. But there was evidence that several folks had warmed up to Kerry by the end. One huge step up was the debates, and then those who went to see "Going Upriver" seemed to take another step toward him.

And I'd like to know how the votes broke down amongst former Greens and Nader voters, whom I would tend to suspect were especially ABB.

[Mass]

137. Like in every election

How many people do you think had to hold their nose to vote for pro death-penalty Clinton, for example? How many people would have voted for Clark just as ABB.

[ProgressiveDepot.com]

50. A Long Time Til 2008

Kerry could seem like either a retread or a democratic father figure by then, you just can't know at this point. It will also depend on who else runs -- if Hillary runs, maybe he's the alternate to her; if she doesn't, maybe he's the only convincing face in another Democratic primary stew; or maybe he looks 4 years older and his face looks even longer than we remember and no one can stand the thought of campaigning for him or listening to him for 4 years if he actually won.

I never can buy the 59 million votes as a selling point for him, though. I like Kerry; I was a delegate for him this time around -- but it's no secret that many people voted against Bush more so than voted for Kerry. A vote's a vote, but Kerry shouldn't read those numbers as a big thumbs-up for him.

I really want someone to win, and will support whoever I think has a real shot. Not to be mercenary about it, but bottom line is we need to win.

[Clarkie1]

52. Great post.

Kerry's a great man, but we need to be politically realistic.

You are right, there is no way to know what the dynamic will be in 08'. My feeling is that since it will not be an election with a divisive sitting president, turnout may unfortunately be lower. I hope that's not the case. I hope turnout soars, but I don't think turnout will soar with a candidate swing voters see as a "been there, done that" sort of option.

I do think we need a fresh face in 08', a new beginning, and a clean break from "politics as usual." The constitution doesn't say the president has to be a former senator, governor, or career politician.

We've "been there and done that" quite enough, I think.

[Discord]

58. a-f'n-men

if I never see another '08 post until sometime in '07 I'd be a happy man. But I guess the Kerrycrats are just too dense to get it thru thier skulls that they are ruining Kerrys cause rather than helping it. Many people, like myself, voted against Bush... But I guess that makes me a Kerrycrat by default since I had no other viable choice than Kerry in the general election. But oh well, I guess they will still consider my vote for him as resounding support for him even though I only support him as a Senator, and did not vote for him in the '04 primaries, and will not vote for him in the '08 primaries if he runs.

[JI7]

64. the person who posted this is not a Kerry supporter

and i find it interesting you only take issue with those which have anything to do with Kerry in 08. there have been similar threads of other people and people have sig lines supporting someone else in 08 yet you never complain about them.

and as i said the person who posted this is not even a Kerry supporter. most Kerry threads have to do with what he is doing right now in the Senate.

[Discord]

66. because its 3 people who keep trying to

pitch the '08 routine on us over and over and over.
And no. I am NOT a Kerry for President supporter. Never was.
I am a Senator Kerry supporter whole heartedly.

I also knocked on most other '08 threads as well when I see them.

Notice the postcounts

Most other candidate in '08 threads die out in about 40 posts while the Kerry in '08 threads regularly run near 200 posts before losing steam. They tend to stay on the top of the first page for much longer periods of time.

[JI7]

68. that's because of the anti Kerry crap

which results in people arguing rather than just showing support. look at the first post on this thread which was anti Kerry. if these people would just ignore it there would most likely be far fewer posts.

and there is a "why we need wes clark thread with over 200 posts".so it's not just Kerry threads.

and if you don't support him then don't vote for him. but it's a democratic forum and there will be people who like certain democrats like Kerry or someone else and they will post things on them. if you expect people to stop posting on him then it just wont happen. unless you ask the mods to ban all posts which have to do with 08.

also, on this thread some of the first responses were from people who called for Clark in 08 yet you had no problem with that. and many others were just people who said they wouldn't support him.

[Discord]

70. If you look at my posts.

I have never said anything negative about Kerry other than I didn't, don't and wont support his bid for presidency. I have blanketly opposed all talk of '08 as it detracts from the issues at hand that are much more important. Notice I had held off posting to this thread until it had become another bashfest yet again. I had nothing against the original post, I continue to support any positive news from ANY of our Democratic officials, and I hold the Kerry bashers equally responsible in how these threads inevitably turn out. but when people make claims that are overstated and the same people keep jumping out in these same threads every time saying the same thing over and over again it is just simply rediculous. The first post echoed a very prominent sentiment among many DU'ers. NO MORE '08!!!
They have and will continue to be bashfests. They end up being more counter-productive than anything else. It just needs to stop!

edited to add: also. just for the record. most posters support Kerrys efforts in the Senate, and within the party. They only voice thier dislike for him with reguards to the '04 run and mention of any '08 run. Its funny how people only see what they want though.

[JI7]

74. i have looked at your posts

and they are mostly directed at those who support Kerry. you act as if it's only Kerry people who bring up the 08 stuff even though the original poster doesn't support Kerry and the first posts on this thread were from those who support Clark or just people who wanted to bash Kerry.

and yes, people do only see what they want which is why even though the original poster isn't a Kerry supporter and the first posts on here which talked about 08 were Clark supporters you took issue with those who support Kerry.

[Discord]

77. because its the same people over and over again.

who are doing it. they need to stop. if they stop... wow... i would be everyone else would too.

might be too hard a concept to grasp though. maybe I'm asking too much.

[JI7]

81. well, tell that to the person who started this thread

who isn't even a Kerry supporter.

[Discord]

84. I waited. I didn't jump in because the

poster isn't one of them, and waited until the thread had dissolved into a bitchfest before I made any posts. and all my posts.. are just calling for the bashing of each other to stop. I can't protect the politicians from criticism, for its the nature of the beast when in the public eye. but criticisms should be directed in a constructive manner, and devoid of personal attacks or contempt to other posters.

[JI7]

87. so you waited until there was someone who actually liked Kerry to post

so you can complain about Kerry supporters ?

if you really had a problem with 08 posts you would have replied right away but it seems the problem you have is that there are people who support Kerry and would support him if he ran again.

and you say criticism should be devoid of personal attacks or contempt to other posters yet your the one who talked about Kerry supporters being dense in the skull.

[Discord]

91. read it however you like

you seem to not understand anything I've said so....

[Laurab]

97. They need to stop?

is that an order? I'm a Kerry supporter who has no interest in '08 right now. It's far too soon, and there's a lot to be done before then. Who knows what can happen between now and then?

I see a Kerry thread, and what *I* see is the same people bashing him over and over. Why? Why do we attack our own? Why do we do the oppostition party's work for them? I don't have a choice for '08 at this time, since I'm not psychic. Thus, I would not post in a thread like this, EXCEPT for the fact that Kerry bashers never seem to miss a thread. No matter what it's about, good, bad, or indifferent, although I have to say, most of the threads are about good things he's trying to accomplish.

The bashers don't stop - why should the supporters?

[LittleClarkie]

99. Indeed. Now I know how the Deaniacs felt

If I see disinformation and general nastiness, I will counter it.

And I don't give a tinker's damn about 2008 right now either. We need to get organized for 2006.

[Discord]

141. read the context...

many times I have pleaded that both sides stop.

note the key word: BOTH

[sendero]

142. If you care to look...

.... you'll find a thread where Discord and I lock horns (but eventually come to a detente' :)) and I'm anything but a Kerry 08 supporter.

IMHO, if folks want the "bashing" to stop, then they should stop posting "self"-serving bullshit my-candidate-is-great threads.

If you continually express an opinion that is not shared by a lot of people, then you have no complaint when those people speak up.

Think Kerry hung the moon? I don't and here is why:

1) Kerry is willing to fight, but only when the stakes are not too high. He let Ohio/Florida go because he thought that going after them would kill his chances for 08. How ironic. IMHO of course.

2) His position on the war may be heartfelt, but it is plain wrong and many could easily construe it as pure political expediency. See 1)

3) He broke the FIRST GODDAMNED RULE of modern campaigning, he let the SBVT folks stick a shiv in his back and he barely countered it at all

4) Anyone who thinks his good showing was a measure of his popularity is daft. He got the ABB vote, and with that vote he should have been able to win. He didn't. Why would I want him again?

My only interest is in having a Dem in the white house. If Kerry is nominated, I will almost certainly vote for him. But in the meantime, I will work for a candidate who I think can FIGHT and WIN. Kerry is not that man. And anyone who thinks the "bashing" is bad now, wait until 2007. It won't go away until after the nomination, get used to it. And if you think my post doesn't belong here, you know what to do.

[Discord]

144. yeah, I remember that one...

:P

Well, I never said I wasn't strongly opinionated. which I think the majority of us here at DU are, and primarily why we're here. We just need to have constructive and civil debates on the issues at hand.

[sendero]

146. I try..

... I really do :)

[JI7]

150. i'm really not sure what your point is

i don't demand or expect you or anyone else to support Kerry if he runs for higher office again.

[sendero]

155. I don't see you..

.... posting these endless "Candidate X is just the greatest and we must not bash him" threads.

Hence, I'm not talking to you. :)

[JI7]

159. since your reply was to a post of mines

i assumed otherwise.

[sendero]

168. upon review...

... my point to you was that discord does not just tangle with Kerry supporters.

[WI_DEM]

157. you certainly read more into this post than I intended

First, All I posted was a link to an article on Kerry considering a '08 run and gave my reasons why I felt he was entitled to try again--not that he is deserving of the nomination. As for all the '08 threads, well it is a political forum and if Kerry is indicating a desire to run again I think that is a legitimate thing to post. Afterall we get how many posts about another possible candidate for '08 every day?

[LittleClarkie]

109. But the posts about Kerry I see are mostly about what he's doing

not about him running in 2008. Those posts generally come from the "Fuck Kerry 2008" crowd. (some of the more perverted Kerrycrats will ask what happened to "Fuck Kerry 2005, 2006 and 2007")

We're not ruining his chances any more than any other supporters. And if we think we see disinformation, we're gonna jump in. We can't help it that his very name is like a red flag to some.

The fact that some don't like Dean never stopped the Deaniacs, for instance.

Excuse us if we continue to keep folks abreast of the man's whereabouts. Nobody shouts "Fuck Dean" when a Deaniac lets us know he's in Alabama or Florida or Tennessee. And if anyone does, I'll be there too, because that's not fair either.

Call me thick if you like. But I don't think there are any more kneejerk cheerleading Kerry freak than there are kneejerk cheerleading supporters for any of the other likely suspects.

And I'm trying to support the man's actions as much as anything. I do wish the thicker among us would get THAT through their tough skulls. Kerry, Dean, Clinton, Boxer, and Reid etc are fighting for us. I have their backs. If they're up to something, I wanna know. Kerry shouldn't be excluded from that because some think he's campaigning. The same could be leveled at Clinton. But I have her back too, even though I really, REALLY don't want her for the nominee. I'm ABC :D

[wisteria]

51. It's always good to read articles about John Kerry,

however why must every article that mentions another possible Kerry run in 2008 also mention Hillary's "popularity"? I want to read about Kerry, not Hillary and if I have to make a choice between the two in a primary battle, I would chose John Kerry. We have already had eight years of a Clinton White House. I'd like to see a Kerry White House.

[Bluehammer]

54. Have you ever seen

Hillary at a rally? She is incredible. The amount of support she would gain would be pivotal in the election. So what if we've had eight years of a Clinton White House? It was still one of our best presidencies. Hillary is a masterful politician, and an ardent campaigner. And she has my vote.

[Clarkie1]

55. Interesting screename. n/t

[wisteria]

56. Who's support are you talking about?

The same people involved in the DLC. I don't see Hillary pushing for grass-root activity. I fear her supporters are mostly going to be corporate types and possibly a bit shady. The Clinton's were involved in a lot of questionable undertakings and all these things will be drug up again. Then, there is the question, who is really running Hillary or Bill.If elected, who is actually running the country and making the decisions, Hillary or Bill? I think Bill Clinton would really like another go at being president. He can't run again- so the next best thing would be to push Hillary. She may well be a masterful politician,but I find it hard to relate to her and make a connection. Personally, I would rather see her on a democratic ticket as a VP choice. To each his own though!

[Bluehammer]

69. I suppose

that we'll have to wait to see the lineup... I don't think we can gauge canidates until '07. Personally, I'm looking at Kerry and seeing nothing new - that is, unless he starts to become outspoken as a senator and stops dawdling for '08, and I''m looking at Hillary and seeing a hell of a lot more charge. Obviously they're going to smear her, but I still think that she'll generate the momentum to persevere. One thing is for sure, she won't be VP... it's all or nothing for her. We'll just have to wait and see...

[Clarkie1]

76. For someone who doesn't post here very much you have

a very unusual perspective and tone to your posts.

"Bluehammer," eh?

[Discord]

79. very curious indeed.

seems many of the Hillary promoters seem to be new posters

hell, I got banned on FR today for *gasp*

posting the truth with some related links...

:evilgrin:

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Discord]

57. well... we almost made it a few days until this '08 crap

picks up again...

I'm SOOOOOOOOOOO sick of ANY talk about ANYONE in '08



Move along. Nothing to see here....

Just more of the SOS....

[Mass]

136. Guess you missed the Clark for 08 and Feingold for 08 threads

then.

And not surprisingly, both started by bashing Kerry.

I did not see you there though, arguing against talking about 08.

[Discord]

143. yep, musta missed them...

or more likely, theres much less hostility in many of those threads. many less... "fuck Dean's" or "fuck Clark posts in those threads.

[Mass]

147. So we are back to point zero

These are the Kerry 08 posts who bug you, not the 08 post generally speaking. (BTW, where are the f**k Dean and f**k Clark's posts in here. All I see are f**ck Kerry).

As much as I would like NO 08 threads, if they are goiung to exists (and they are), I do not see any reason to exclude specific people. It makes no sense.

[Discord]

152. lets not bicker about this please.

as I know that we are both really on the same page anyways with reguards to any '08 threads.

And I was mentioning other threads about other candidates, not mentions of other candidates. just to clarify.


Hey, I can't be everywhere at once.

:P

[Mass]

160. I kind of doubt we are on the same page here

Given your more than 20 posts in this thread. It seems that the subject disturbs you a lot more than me. Without your posts and the answers to your posts, it is more than probable that this thread would have died a long time ago.

[Discord]

162. well, I have spoken by email

or PM to several of the poster on these threads. Most are in agreement with me on the general principle that we all want the bickering to stop, the tearing down of our own party to stop, and that majority of posts are in that frame.

My first posts in this thread we're simply applauding those who posted thier support of not wanting to talk about '08. Check post numbers if you care to verify. Others we're in responses to posts in reply to posts I had made. If you post a message to me, I will read it and respond.

yes, I am particularly disturbed by the Kerry threads in particular because it seems to be the Kerry threads inevitably turn into a bashfest. MUCH more so than any other besides the Hillary ones.

I have kept quiet on the Hillary threads for a reason. One I wont get into at this time, but I do have my reasons for not posting to those.

[Mass]

163. So your solution is to forbid all posts referring to Kerry

I had understood that a long time ago. There is no doubt this is what you want.

Just dont say you are simply neutral on the subject. You have just found a different and more subtle way to express yourself.

I have a really severe reaction to censorship in all forms.

[Discord]

165. no. I completely support any news about what

Kerry is doing NOW!

and thats all.

I think opening a specific forum just for '08 discussion would solve this issue quickly.

It would give people who want to talk about it a place to do so without the backlash from people who dont.

[TheDonkey]

67. Let the people decide in the primaries

I'd be on board for Kerry '08 but he has a lot to prove until then. If the Democrats pick him, then I'll again be behind him.

[WI_DEM]

158. correct

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[politicasista]

83. You should watch the personal attacks here.

:mad:

[Discord]

85. personal attacks?

don't speak a foreign language, so that might have been it?? but didn't see one there otherwise.

[politicasista]

88. Saying that we are mentally ill for supporting Kerry

and calling him a fool. That's a personal attack. Get over the primaries. Nobody disrespects Hillary, Clark, or Dean like that. Hey this Kerry bashing is fun. I love it! HA! HA! HA!

[Discord]

92. more like a general attack...

but I see your point.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LittleClarkie]

98. Kall me Krazy then

:crazy:

Woo hoo, cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch -- We, Kemosabi?

I personally consider us all losers. I will not try to seperate myself from the loss by dumping the blame all on Kerry and leaving myself innocent. I don't think others should either, but that's only my opinion. We all could use some navel gazing before the next election.

So anyway, I still consider that "loser" a good man who would make a GREAT president, even if he's not the world's greatest campaigner. At least not the first time round anyway. I'm convinced though that if we'd ever give our failed candidates a second chance, we'd discover that what they learned the first time around is valuable experience that might just help them mount a better campaign the second time around.

Not only would I give money again. I would work for his campaign again, this time in the primaries as well. He still looks like a president to me. I want him. I don't care what others think about that. I. want. him.

[MsMagnificent]

118. It's not the 'poor' campaigning!

I have no problem with his campaigning style. He had energy and hit the road conscientiously, I thought he was great. He was a bit stentorian but that's not necessarily a negative; what he had to say was intelligent! He kicked Bushits ASS in every single debate!
It's not even that he wouldn't come out with any concrete platform, preferring to stay vague.

It's NONE of that!

It's not the Losing, I should have been more clear:
It was the Deliberate, Premature Losing.

I just posted this but it's worth repeating because I really want you to know:

No matter if he won or lost, NOT ONE of us would have abandoned John F. Kerry if he FOUGHT long and hard and true!
Just like he SWORE to us he would!

He did nothing of the sort.

John Kerry gave up in the home stretch, before he even reached the wire. I have NEVER seen so many grown men cry, in real life, when Kerry just gave up. At our local Democratic Headquarters AND here in DU my heart went out to those who were completely bewildered, flattened by despair. The feelings of agony and betrayal were palpable right through the computer screen.

I'm glad you can still support him. You're entitled to your own opinion, you still have faith and hope in him & God Bless you and Good Luck!
There could be nothing more desirable than to prove me wrong, for that would remove the feelings of utter futility.

However, since that day nothing has really changed. Based on his actions and his actions alone he has proven himself unworthy of good people's trust. Even though he seems to finally has found his long-lost voice again, it's still not enough.

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[last1standing]

128. I don't appreciate insulting other people's physical traits.

I don't find it progressive or even decent behavior.

[JI7]

129. how disgusting,

i'm a Kerry supporter and it disgusts me that you attack Hillary in such a way.

[LittleClarkie]

132. I'm there as well

I ain't a Hillary supporter, but I still have her back as well.

She ain't fat. I, on the other hand, am.

Paulidee, hun, you need to calm the hell down. JI7 and I can appreciate your enthusiasm for Kerry, but nobody really likes the hard sell approach. We're talking backlash big time. Please, you need to find another way to support Kerry that doesn't flood a thread. Okay?

[LittleClarkie]

131. Usually, when the opponent isn't George W. Bush

the night of November 2nd IS the finish line. The fact that it took him until November 3rd means he ran a bit past the finish line. Not as far past as Gore, mind you. His was the second slowest concession in my personal memory. Waiting, we found out, didn't change the outcome much. It was not something he was going to be able to battle between November 3rd and January 6th. And from what I've read of the man, the obsessive compulsive prosecutor in him wasn't coming out swinging unless he had a good solid case against his opponent.

Nevertheless, I AM grateful that he continues to fight in his own obsessive compulsive way with a lawsuit in Ohio even now. I don't think the man is done yet. Several buns are still in the oven. We shall see.

I cried too. I still do. I dropped down the same manhole everyone else did on November 3rd. I felt robbed. But it's Bush Co I blame, not Kerry. And I still want what was stolen from me. I still want Kerry in the White House. If not that, I wouldn't mind SoS. That would be fairly sweet as well. He's got to much to offer skill-wise to not be used somehow.

We're both entitled to our opinions. Even so, I won't suggest that you need to be in a rubber room, however, if you could see your way clear to not suggesting I need one. Deal?

[MsMagnificent]

169. Deal

God, if I knew it was going to be taken so personally (and it NEVER was meant to point out individuals!) I never would have said it! I still cannot figure out how and why some people took it as a direct personal affront... and we ALL say it about one thing or another, that 'it's just crazy'.

Conversely, "Drinking the Kool Aid" which accuses one of such blind submission to another's will to the point of happily committing suicide, is viewed as personally non-insulting or non-threatening?!
I'm sorry, but IMO that's about as damn crazy as a person can get!

Touchy, touchy people.

Mingia!
LOL

Seriously, we ALL need to grow thicker skins, because that comment was really rather minor and is very commonly used (to no great or specific detriment) in our lexicon. It is NOTHING compared to what the Reprobates have done, are doing, and will do and say to us!

Still, I feel that throwing good money after bad IS quite simply crazy.
In an abstract, metaphorical sense :eyes:

Even it if WAS a fairly foregone conclusion, that man OWED US TO FOLLOW THROUGH JUST AS HE PROMISED.
"I got your back" he said.
"We have a large staff of lawyers ready & waiting to fight"
When in actuality he couldn't WAIT to give up EVEN with the Ohio and Florida et al "irregularities"!

Once he conceded, that was IT. Case closed, ELECTION closed.
Once he conceded, the "Irregularities" were moot -- it was finished. Ohio lawsuit or no Ohio lawsuit.

And yes, at least he does have that Ohio litigation, but do you see it actually going to have any impact to not only the outcome of the 2004 election, but to the rampant, arrogant voter disenfranchisement?

No-one called Bushit's bluff for the second presidential election in a row!

Nothing changed!

How's that saying go? 'Fool me once, shame on... shame on me. Fool me twice, err err...... won't get fooled again.'


John Kerry served us VERY poorly then. I really cannot understand the still-pro Kerry fans being able to believe that, next time, he would actually fight the good fight and use his formidable political and intellectual skills to do in the future what he should have and failed to do in November, 2004. Why did he not, in 2004, with all the crap of disenfranchised voters, "Felon" lists, Diebold machines with easily hacked programming, no paper trail and no accountability, built by a large Bushit contributor -- one who brazenly predicted that Bushit would most definitely win; 8+ hour long lines in primarily Democrat areas while warehoused, unused machines sat in suburban, more Republican neighborhoods; Blackwell and ALL his crap, just one nasty: 80 pound paper must be used to register to vote else he couldn't accept the registration! Because of PAPER WEIGHT?! Then we have the hugely disparate numbers between the "Exit polls" and the ACTUAL RESULTS -- yeah right! There is no way now to prove that the electronic machines were tampered with (no legislation even to address this in future elections!) and along with the exit polls every credible pollsters predictions were proved, for the first time ever, incorrect!

Today, any attempts to try to correct these many flaws are unfocused and non-contiguous, they are broken as to one general, organized campaign to see that in the future justice is provided not denied. There is no one top organization (Hello DNC?) coordinating, collating and ensuring firm legal litigation to ALL the ANSWERS to these PROBLEMS.

How many presidential elections do we need to have stolen --we're up to 2 in a row, now-- until somebody does something?!

You could not wish for more and better ammunition to investigate voter fraud, the cases were eminently credible; but what does Kerry do? He concedes LONG before all the voting machine votes alone were tallied, far from counting the write-ins and other ballots.

Yes, he is smart. Yes he was truly a war hero. Yes it surely appears he is honest and conscientious in most areas. But that one slip, and it's a HUGE slip, when everyone was so counting on him has denigrated all those things. Maybe he was tired, but he dropped the all-important ball that not only his win depended on but the safety and security of every American citizen; and I personally do not foresee ever being able to have faith in him again.

That may be his one and only flaw, but boy oh boy, its a Duzie!!


***This will be my last post regarding Kerry, I'd love to read your considered response, and then hopefully that will be it. And I truly wish to be proven wrong. Anyhow, I said what I felt I had to, and hope I put it in a way that will not alienate you but let you understand where the new non-supporters of Kerry (although I do not presume to speak on their behalf, just my own) are coming from. We cannot afford to anymore split amongst ourselves over what are presently merely arguable --because nothing can actually be done about any of this now-- and rehashed points. I must point out that there is however a real and implicit caution that Kerry may have permanently lost a good sized portion of his former supporters, if he should attempt to run for president again. It's sad, but it's true.
Good luck to you Clarkie! :)

[kerrygoddess]

100. Special... very special post.... N/T

sad, seems like you are the one threatening here.

[MsMagnificent]

101. Who did I threaten?:

Quote your source.

[LittleClarkie]

105. Suggesting we be carted off to a mental hospital was beyond the pale

not a threat, of course. Not unless I think you plan on driving the little bus.

Nope, not a threat. Just unduly insulting. There are more of us than you think who rather like ol' Johnny Velcro.

[kerrygoddess]

106. Johnny Velcro! LOL!

He sticks to you!

[kerrygoddess]

107. Well...

When someone makes that "are you threatening me" statement when no one has directly threatened them, that's usually taken for a threat. SO I guess that you would be your source because you are the only one who used those words.

[LittleClarkie]

108. Sadly, I had a "Cornholio" moment when I read that post

I hang out with guys who used to watch Beevis and Butthead, can you tell? "I am the Great Cornholio. Are you threatening me?"

2:30am, and Erica goes goofy again. Caffeine. running. out.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LittleClarkie]

104. That gave me pause as well.

Ol' Faithless Kiss himself.

In a related Joementum moment, have you noticed how often the Repubs play the race card, after railing for so many years that the Left played that card too much? Now we're anti-semite if we don't support the neo-con agenda, and flat out racist if we don't support Rice or Gonzalez. I find that more than alittle bizarro.

[wisteria]

93. What????

You actually don't like Kerry and for all the same unimaginative, boring reasons repeated over and over again by the same small group of people who think he owed them a win simply because they voted for him. Do you always abandon those who disappoint you?

[kerrygoddess]

94. I guess they don't get ...

That some of us here actually worked our tails off for JK for 12 months, 18 months and we're not not shaking our fists and saying NO MORE KERRY...

No they don't get that those of us who supported Kerry for years, actually some of us, will continue to support him, because we know who he is and what a great president he would be.

[MsMagnificent]

111. SO sorry to disappoint

My my, I'll have to come up with more imaginative, exciting reasons to entertain you!

So by your proclamation of boring and unimaginative you feel you've somehow successfully refuted said arguments?

Yes he owed us a win, the stakes were already too high. Too many of us put all of our energy, time, faith and hope into him.

NO, I would not have abandoned him if he FOUGHT long and hard and true!

John Kerry did nothing of the sort and Kerry apologists cannot refute that!

If I bet on a nag that willfully gives up before the wire, I surely am not going to throw more good money after bad and bet that horse again. Plain and simple.

You, of course, are free to do and say as you wish.
Do not presume to abrogate mine.

[LittleClarkie]

116. I would feel free

except for this damned straightjacket's making it hard to type.

:crazy:

[MsMagnificent]

192. LOL

(Just saw this : )

[LittleClarkie]

95. I don't blame him as much as I blame the party as a whole

Not organized enough. And the anti-Bush campaign had a backlash as well. I think some were more defensive than they would have been had there not been a contingent calling Bush "Hitler" no matter how true that may or may not turn out to be.

Those who sit back now and say that Kerry let them down should go and look in a mirror. He was part of it, but not the whole enchilada. We weren't organized enough. We weren't grassroots enough. Some of us were too far to the left and scared the middle. For any of those elements to divorce themselves from the loss and point fingers is wrong.

We all get part of the blame. I could have been down at HQ more. The party could have started organizing in 2000.

One thing Kerry has been going around saying is dead right. We need to start NOW, not after the next presidential primaries. The GOP was already on it after the first election, preparing. We need to do the same. Now.

WE let us down. All of us. Including Kerry. But not exclusively only him. If we don't accept that, we can't work to improve the situation.

We need to decide what we're about as a party. Right now, I think we're too scattered, trying to cover about 10 different issues at once, shooting our wad here and there ineffectively. Kerry couldn't please us all. If he talked health care, then someone was shouting he needed to talk about the war. If he was talking about the war, someone was shouting that he should be talking about the environment, and so on. When he was being positive, there were forces saying "attack!" When he went into attack mode, some said he was just the "no" candidate with no plan of his own.

He needed to damn the torpedoes, even in his own party. He couldn't cover everyone's issues. Until our party can get it's priorities straight so that we can get most of our guns aimed in the same direction, I fear we will remain ineffectual in elections.

After Easter, I'm going to volunteer to work on the local Dem Party newsletter. That's part of what I'm doing to make my local party stronger. That and give money that I'd never given before.

I do wish we'd quit bitching and get a move on. I'm told that some in our local party get that. Those who normally only get active during elections are remaining active now, even one retired guy I talked to.

[LittleClarkie]

103. Am I reading that right

You considered Joe Liebermann a better choice than Kerry, and on a par with Clark and Dean? Or no?

[pauliedee]

112. Kerry is better than ANY candidate in the country

He's still fighting like a champ ....deserves another shot...
Hillary is a sellout ....:kick:

[BlueIris]

133. Yes, yes he is. n/t.

[seabeyond]

135. i would easily prefer kerry

i would prefer kerry over many. and that small margin of victory for bush. in the intimidated and suppressed votes alone show how much more narrow it truly was. even if you dont believe in election fraud. i do. i think kerry won. but even if you dont believe in election fraud, there was plenty of individual thefts across nation to show more narrow than final number

further, what i like about kerry

i like the dems saying, we thought he would be a good president in 2004, we still think he would be a good president. i like the psychological of re running him. and saying with the conservative ugly in running their campaign, we are running kerry again

[robbedvoter]

139. Bush didn't win. But Kerry gave it to him anyway. One reason for Kerry 08:

dispenses with all the pesky uncertainty. A reliable candidate who will concede no matter what.

[marcologico]

145. What you're trying to say is, "a winner who knows when the game's over."

And it was over at 8:00 Pacific Time on November 2.

p.s. you might add, "and who knows how to write and deliver an honorable concession speech."

[MollyStark]

149. Not really

I can't speak for that poster but I am pretty sure she didn't mean that.

[Discord]

153. It wasn't over. and it's still not over.

but by conceding the race so quickly he gave the Pukes enough time to cover their tracks and took the national spotlight OFF of the election fraud that took place. He should have fought tooth and nail BEFORE conceding. Kept the heat on.

But he dropped out for personal reasons to further his own political career and to set up a run in '08. Well, if so many supporters believe he won in '04, then shouldn't he have fought THEN. I mean there were still people in lines at voting stations at 8pm Pacific Time. How was all the votes counted like he PROMISED us.

[marcologico]

154. The fight isn't over, but the election ended when the polls closed

To suggest that Kerry should have refused to concede until every last recount lawsuit has been litigated -- which should be about the middle of the next decade -- beggars belief. Tell me you're joking?

[Larkspur]

161. Russ Feingold '08!!!

No way will I ever vote for Kerry again. He's proven that he's unelectible. He needs to fade into history.

Why I'll support Feingold in '08
1) He was the lone vote against the Patriot act
2) He voted against Bush's tax cuts
3) He voted against the Iraq War Resolution
4) He's from the Midwest, a key area Dems need to capture
5) Unlike most senators, including my 2 dorks from CT, he consistantly has held "town hall" meetings with his constituents, and this gives him an edge, like governors have, with being confortrable with meeting with ordianry folks.
6) He won his last re-election in a landslide, while Kerry barely eked out a win.
7) Feingold, like Wellstone, publicly defends and promotes progressive values. He doesn't run from them, like Kerry did.

I see Feingold as a cross between Paul Wellstone and Howard Dean, and if Feingold tosses his hat in the ring, I wouldn't be surprised to see DFA get behind him.

[bellinghambell]

164. No Way

I wouldn't vote for Kerry again if he fell into the presidency from a turnip truck. Is this a boy posting. Hillary would make a much better president than Kerry...Hands down. But lets find someone dynamic, fresh and actually has an opinion.

[Discord]

166. Welcome to DU!!!

:hi:

[bellinghambell]

167. Hi son

Thanks....Just jumping out there and seeing how things go.

[Discord]

171. oh, and just as a side note as so no one misses one

other point. TIME magazine is owned by Time Warner. A major Repug contributer. Just to put out there for anyone who might question the motives of printing that article.

http://www.cjr.org/tools/owners/timewarner.asp

[NYCGirl]

173. According to opensecrets.org, Time Warner was a major contributor to Dems

http://opensecrets.org/industries/contrib.asp?Ind=B02

[Discord]

176. hmmm. well, I wonder why in so many articles

I've read as citing Time/Warner as being a major contributer to the Republican Party.

Gonna have to do some additional investigating.

Would also wonder which individuals they chose to support as it looks as if the majority of monies we're given to individuals rather than PAC's.

very strange.

[NYCGirl]

177. According to this, Time Warner was the third largest

contributor to the Kerry campaign:

http://www.opensecrets.org/presidential/contrib.asp?ID=N00000245

[karynnj]

178. It's not the corporation, but the summed amount from the employees

[Discord]

181. that could be the differance.

anyone know a link to sources of corporate funding?

[NYCGirl]

182. More info at the Center for Public Integrity:

http://www.publicintegrity.org/bop2004/candidate.aspx?cid=4&act=cp

[Discord]

184. Thanks for the link.

:)

[cestpaspossible]

186. You mean there are Democrats who work for corporations?

Wow, mind-blowing...

sorry, my sarcasm is not directed at you

[MISSDem]

174. Great! Actually, I wish that I had never removed the John

Kerry bumper sticker from my car.

[iconoclastNYC]

175. I dont want him to win the nomination

But if he can add value to the race without attacking other candidates then i want him to run for it. I think it would help spliter the establishement vote and we might end up with a good nominee for a change.

[Bluehammer]

180. Are you saying

that he would be rather like Dean in the last election? I suppose I can see that... who knows, we might even end up with a Clinton/Kerry ticket. I must say, one of the biggest reasons that I support Hillary is because of her ability to appeal to the majority of her faction, like she is so proficient at doing in NY-at first she didn't draw much support, but she eventually attracted much of the conservative upper class and the upstaters-even the fundamentalist Christians. I see her doing just this on a national level-and winning a broad range of voters. If her this works well enough to get her into office, she will be strongly in favor of judicial reform, which in my opinion is the most crucial change that has to take place in this country.

[LittleClarkie]

185. Kerry's pretty good at his local elections as well

I think we saw, though, in the last election that provincial politics doesn't necessarily translate well to national. What Hillary can do locally she may not be able to do nationally. Hillary's trump card will be the Clintonistas, I believe. They've been through it nationally.

However, I don't think it serves Hillary well to be frontrunner so early. She's the frontrunner before anyone casts a vote: that's the position Dean was in this time around. I tend to think of her as the Dean of 2008 therefore.

The thing that will serve Kerry if he chooses to go ahead in 2008 is that he's been through this now nationally, and can learn from his mistakes, like getting better advisors for instance.

But I still say it's too early for all of this. We're splintering ourselves needlessly just when we need to come together.

[marcologico]

187. If he runs, he'll win. For one thing

Kerry and Kennedy were the first of the very few Dems to actually go on national TV and expose Bush's SS plan as a fraud.

That took guts, not to mention 40 minutes of warmed-over SBVT mud from Fat Boy, but he did it.

I suspect that's one reason why voters trust him.

[Mass]

188. Come on

Plenty other did, including Reid, Durbin, and many others.

[MoonRiver]

193. I doubt many Democratic voters trust him.

He folded like a broken acordian as soon as * said "poof".

[Mass]

194. I disagree with you totally

There are many people who trust him. You may not be one, but they are.

[GOPBasher]

191. I like Kerry, but we have so many better potential candidates. n/t

[WI_DEM]

195. I agree he is just one of many good candidates

We shouldn't let '08 be an automatic for anyone--including Hillary Clinton. Our nominee has to earn our vote.