one of my regular customers is ex FDNY, and was trapped for 2 days

[Ghost in the Machine]

under tower 1. It's not a subject we normally discuss as I never bring it up to him. I know the feelings of suffering a traumatic event since I was almost killed in Hurricane Andrew, and it's not always easy to talk about.

Anyways, we were talking yesterday, and he brought the subject up. His brother, also FDNY, was killed outside the tower, crushed in his truck from falling debris. Frank was trapped for 2 days when he finally got some cell/radio service and was able to make a call.

I asked him what his feelings were about the towers coming down. The first thing out of his mouth was "this was an inside job, pulled off by the Bush Administration". He stated that he heard numerous explosions in the sub basements, and that he knew that the towers were brought down via controlled demolition... "No doubt about it"...

He then went on to say that during the '93 attack on the tower that the reason for them hitting the garage is that they were going for the basement, where there was explosive materials stored... "and 2 warheads. I don't know why they (the warheads) were there, but they were there"...

I hope Frank feels like opening up a little more about 9/11 and wants to talk about it, but I will never push him on the subject, nor will I be the one to bring it up to him. If he comes up with anything else that I find interesting, I'll let y'all know.....

Ghost

P.S. I found this interesting tidbit while googling some information:

"As fire fighters raced to the scene, many were sent into the lobby of the North Tower. There were calls of people trapped on the 104th floor, the 103rd floor, and the 83rd as well. A marine fire unit was ready in the Hudson River to help evacuate the injured. But just as the fire department was beginning to help the people inside the North tower, a second plane was spotted at 9:03.

TAPE: Marine to Manhattan urgent. You have a second plane into the other tower of the trade center, major tower.

TAPE: Marine 6 to Manhattan. That plane was a large bomber style green aircraft into the second tower. Be advised." (emphasis mine)
http://www.wnyc.org/news/articles/50527 - - - about halfway down the page

[EFerrari]

1. When they reran the original footage last year for the anniversary,

the reporters kept reporting explosions. :shrug:

[Ghost in the Machine]

24. I saw some footage of a FAUX reporter describing the second plane

as "a large blue & white plane that looked like something we have never seen around here before....

I'll have to look to see if I can find it online

[SpiralHawk]

2. MIHOP

MIHOP

[PhilipShore]

3. That is interesting...

I live in NY, and I actually heard the first plane fly over my apartment -- then the crash. The official 9/11 story says that the first plane flew over the river, not even close to my apartment.

"this was an inside job, pulled off by the Bush Administration"

That language is kind of strong -- I personally think it was state sponsored by the Saudis, and blowback (Bin Laden as former CIA spook), and inside job says that a US CIA type of agency organized it.

The CIA is kind of incompetent but they are not that stupid. It is quite possible that someone at CIA passed info to the Saudi secret service; that they were not supposed to, but if they did we will never know, unless a CIA whistleblower reveals all.

He should consider contacting the Jersey Girls, that would be a powerful tag team.

[rman]

9. CIA / US state is more incompetent than the Saudi state?

Is that supposed to be self-evident?

[PhilipShore]

14. No -- that was not my point

It seems obvious to me that -- 9/11 -- was not an inside job, but rather the result of blowback.

_______________________________

Blowback (intelligence)
blowback: Definition and Much More from Answers.com

http://www.answers.com/topic/blowback-intelligence

Blowback is a term now broadly used in espionage to describe the unintended consequences of covert operations. Blowback typically appears as a surprise, apparently random and without cause, because the public generally is unaware of secret operations that caused it.

In its strictest terms, blowback was originally informational only and referred to consequences that resulted when an intelligence agency participated in foreign media manipulation, which was then reported by domestic news sources in other countries as accepted facts. In looser terms, it can encompass all operational aspects. In this context, it can thus mean retaliation as the result of actions undertaken by nations. The phrase is believed to have been coined by the CIA, in reference to the shrapnel that often flies back when shooting an automatic firearm.

In the 1980s, blowback became a central focus of the debate over the Reagan Doctrine, which advocated militarily supporting resistance movements opposing Soviet-supported, communist governments. In one case, covert funding of the Contras in Nicaragua would lead to the Iran-Contra Affair, while overt support led to a World Court ruling against the United States in Nicaragua v. United States.

Critics of the Reagan Doctrine argued that blowback was unavoidable, and that, through the doctrine, the United States was inflaming wars in the Third World. Doctrine advocates, principally at the conservative Heritage Foundation, responded that support for anti-communist resistance movements would lead to a "correlation of forces," which would topple communist regimes without significant retaliatory consequence to the United States, while simultaneously altering the global balance of power in the Cold War.

[rman]

25. Blowback happens so often they invented a word for it

I'd think by now they'd be able to anticipate and prevent it.

If US agencies are not more incompetent than Saudi agencies, and Saudi agencies can pull of 9/11, then so can US agencies.

[CJCRANE]

71. The Saudi elite

have nothing to gain from attacking America....unless they did it as a favor to Bushco and were assured that they would be immune from any repercussions.

[Tin Man]

4. Frank has got a screw loose or something...

The FDNY guys trapped in the collapse of the North Tower were rescued after only a few hours. The very last survivor rescued, after 27 hours was Genelle Guzman McMillan. No way Frank was trapped for 2 days - something is very wrong with his story.

[smoogatz]

12. There you have it.

Sorry, Frank. That said--what happened to WTC 7?

[Ghost in the Machine]

26. wouldn't *you* have a screw loose? I guess you've never been through

a traumatic near death experience? To this day, I couldn't tell you how many hours I stood holding a boxspring and mattress against a motel window during hurricane andrew... but it felt like a week. That being said.... if the man says he was trapped for 2 days, then I believe him.

Your statement saying they were only trapped for 27 hours says it all. Even though 24 hours is technically only one day... if you were trapped at 10:30 am tuesday.... and got out at 10:30 wednesday... you spent the night trapped, and therefore have every right to state you were trapped for 2 days

Thanks for your effort at debunking a hero's story though...

Ghost

[Tin Man]

28. Sure, emotional trauma sometimes precipitates psychosis

His story includes some other pretty fantastical claims - like 2 warheads in the basement of WTC back in 1993.

WTF? The Sept 11 Conspiracy now goes back to Clenis? And how the hell would Frank have knowledge of warheads in the basement of WTC anyway?

Sorry, but Frank needs help.

[Ghost in the Machine]

33. "And how the hell would Frank have knowledge of warheads

in the basement of WTC anyway?"

Maybe because was a responder to that attack, too? :shrug:
He was FDNY for 20+ years, as was his father and his brother...
Many things happen that we don't know about and the papers don't report.

Example: Reported deaths in hurricane andrew : "Andrew was directly responsible for 26 deaths, but including indirect loss of life the death toll was 65." http://www.csc.noaa.gov/crs/cohab/hurricane/andrew/andrew.htm

The truth: My cousin works for Dade County, and was the co-ordinator between the county and the military that was there to help. My cousin personally saw, with his own eyes 3 refrigerated trucks full of bodies from the storm. You see, what the government didn't do was count the close to 1000 Mexicans who died in the 3 large campesinos they lived in around Homestead & Florida City because 90% of them were illegals, transients and migrant workers who were there to pick squash, beans, peppers, etc....

We don't always get the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth from our Government or our media.

Thanks once again for your effort to debunk, but it's NOT going to work on me. Try running your theories on someone else who will buy it.

Ghost

[greyl]

59. It's easy to debunk an argument that is nothing more than an emotional appeal.

If your story were logical and supported by evidence, it would be effective and righteous to support it with emotion.

If.

[robinlynne]

32. Ghost, dont take it personally. It is our place to ask questions and make sure

information is accurate. If we are not critical, we can never be credible. Doubts are not to hurt your friend. They are to make sure not to repeat a false story.

[Ghost in the Machine]

36. Thank you, robinlynne..... I can understand what you are saying,

when you state it that way, and I don't blame you. I've been skeptical of stories too, but I have no reason to doubt this man. I can hear the emotion in his voice when he talks about it, and that's something no one can fake.

I've had the same thing said about me when relating my near death experience in hurricane andrew. They could tell by the emotion in my voice, and the look in my eyes.... that said it all...

Now I have to go to work, and it's snowing! I won't be home til about 3 AM or later, and will check back on this thread then...

:hi:

Ghost

[jberryhill]

68. It's not a matter of being "fake"

People come out of traumatic experiences with all sorts of memories that are real to them.

When you have a nightmare, and wake up afraid, you aren't "faking" your fear. The emotion is very, very real.

People have near-death experiences, and later talk about how they saw Jesus. That doesn't seem to settle any religious questions for anyone else. The emotions are very real.

[piobair]

50. The last survivor of any kind was pulled out after 27 hrs

but that was a civilian woman. All surviving FDNY personell were rescued on 9/11.

[William Seger]

64. Sorry, I don't believe him

20 people survived the collapse, but I can't find anything similar to his story in this article:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002-09-05-miracles-usat_x.htm

The only FDNY mentioned were the 12 in stairway B, who crawled out within three hours.

[GreenEyedLefty]

29. It might have felt like 2 days...

Nevertheless, it's interesting.

[truedelphi]

80. That was my reaction also. Thanks for clarifying. n/t

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

5. A I have read similar accounts and one of most impressive is the account

of William Rodriquez, a janitor working at the towers. He was later given the medal of freedom for his heroic work. He heard an explosion in a subbasement before the first plane hit.

Also, if you read transcripts of first responders, there were many reports of explosions heard on the lower floors. The most remarkable I read were two accounts of first responders who said they saw rockets being launched into the towers from the Woolworth building.

These transcripts were available from the NYT, and there are probably links to them at the 9/11 forum.

My guess though is that this thread will wind up in that dungeon anyway....

[truedelphi]

81. I have watched several obviously "approved" one hour

TV shows, the last one being about the entire regiment of Firemen trapped in the stair well while the building collapses around them. In these one hour shows, the footage of the buildings collapsing clearly shows "squibs" preceding the floors that are in the act of collapsing.

You see a "Squib" exploding and then you see another on the side of the building next to it and it appears it is happening as if a time detonation is taking place.

[Cronquist]

6. I hate this stuff

I work for the govt. 13 years
I've done mostly environmental work for the military.

I cannot comprehend how anybody thinks the govt. could have pulled it off without anybody finding out who did it and how.

We are not that good.
At times we are slow, costly, and inefficient. But we do try to get the job done.

SO if there is a section of the govt that can pull 9/11 off without screwing it up, I have one question to ask.
Are you hiring? Because I'd like to get something accomplished in my years left in the world.

/end sarcasm
/end rant

[PhilipShore]

7. Welcome to DU Cronquist

[BeFree]

10. You really wouldn't want to

They'd rub you out as soon as you were done.

The CIA pulls off stuff like this all the time - murders, bombings, etc. So to say that a group of, say, just 19 operators headed by one kingpin, couldn't undertake this operation is foolish, at best.

Besides, the operation has been dicovered even though much has been obstructed by the government.

[Cronquist]

13. Foolish?

I don't think so.

Maybe naive, since i've never done a black op.

But if I did, don't you think I would have set up a dead-man switch or some sort of insurance?

If the CIA is so good, how come they have left such a paper trail?

BTW I love the spell checker.

[BeFree]

18. Foolish, naive, you decide

What makes you think they couldn't? Just because you never have, you ascribe the same to that bunch? That bunch of known liars and crooks? That seems to be your whole premise.

The subsequent coverup is something that all the foolish have bought into and was part of the plan.

Now I am not saying I know the whole story, few do - and they're not talking - so I'd be foolish or naive to even begin to come to any kind of conclusion; as you seem to have done.

[BeFree]

20. Here is what the foolish believe

A theory that says an airplane became shredded into unidentifiable pieces and that black boxes were never discovered and the greatest air force in the world couldn't do a damn thing and a low-skilled pilot could make an airliner perform impossible moves and the secret service left their object completely exposed for the longest time before he ran scared and the man in charge at the white house gave orders that were never carried out and tall buildings defied physics while falling and those same buildings were the first steel framed to ever fall because of fire and all the warnings from all over the world were ignored and the people who were claimed to have done the deed were found to have addresses from US military bases and had contacts with the FBI, CIA, and foreign governments and whose multi-million dollar finances were deemed to have been of no use to investigate.

I know, I know, it all seems like sheer madness to believe such things, but that pretty much sums up the Official Conspiracy Theory as put forth by bushco. So, what do you believe?

[Tin Man]

21. I believe... this thread is going to the dungeon!

LOL

[roody]

34. And didn't one of the perpetrator's passport

fall to the ground?

[TheWraith]

37. You're repeating many fabrications and untruths.

"A theory that says an airplane became shredded into unidentifiable pieces"

The pieces were quite identifiable, actually, though they obviously didn't retain the shape of airplanes due to the force of the crashes.

"and that black boxes were never discovered"

Actually, four out of the eight black boxes involved were recovered: both the CVR and FDRs from flights 77 and 93. The boxes were not recovered from the planes that hit the WTC, however that's hardly surprising, as they aren't rated to survive that kind of environment.

"and the greatest air force in the world couldn't do a damn thing"

If you bothered to read the available material, you'd know that by the time they launched interceptors for each flight, it was too late to find the planes before they hit their targets. It's a pretty simple failure in terms of communication speed, and the lack of foresight to put up a CAP over high-value targets.

"and a low-skilled pilot could make an airliner perform impossible moves"

That's simply a myth. The reason that the plane hit the Pentagon where it did was because the pilot grossly overestimated how fast you could turn a fully loaded jetliner, which is why he overshot his original target--the high-level offices facing the river--and had to circle around, impacting a part of the building that was nearly unoccupied.

"and the secret service left their object completely exposed for the longest time before he ran scared"

Gosh, incompetance and cowardice from a former prep-school cheerleader. Who'd have thunk it?

"and the man in charge at the white house gave orders that were never carried out"

Proof, please?

"and tall buildings defied physics while falling"

No, they didn't. Please offer proof that a building falling down defies physics.

"and those same buildings were the first steel framed to ever fall because of fire"

Actually, even ignoring the massive structural damage from airliners ramming into the buildings at top speed, that's still wrong. There are many other steel buildings which have collapsed due to fire. The Chicago convention center, a hotel in Brazil, a few more whose details I can't remember.

"and all the warnings from all over the world were ignored"

Again, incompetance on the part of Bush and friends surprises you?

"and the people who were claimed to have done the deed were found to have addresses from US military bases and had contacts with the FBI, CIA, and foreign governments and whose multi-million dollar finances were deemed to have been of no use to investigate."

Actually, that's a plain lie. No such thing has ever been found true. The only shade of accuracy in that statement is that some of the funding for Al Qaeda was/is provided by members of the Saudi royal family (which comprises basically the entire Saudi upper class), a fact that the Bushies overlook because of oil.

Damn, that was one long run-on sentence. Perhaps next time you should try investigating punctuation, as well as the things you hear.

[driver8]

48. Don't forget --- Atta's passport just happend to survive the explosion intact.

Yeah, ok...pull this leg and it plays "Jingle Bells".

[Bolo Boffin]

49. No, it didn't.

The surviving passport was Satam al-Suqami, and it had a lot of damage. It was discovered on the streets before either of the towers collapsed, in case you also think it was pulled out of the rubble.

I don't think legs should do that. Maybe you should get that checked out.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[greyl]

56. YOU remain unidentified. nt

[greyl]

57. Thanks, mods! nt

[truedelphi]

82. In at least three separate TV shows that I have watched, the narrator references the fact

That Atta's passport is recovered.

[KansDem]

22. I once thought along the same lines as you do now...

Then I discovered Operation Northwoods and Project for the New American Century.

Now I'm not as naive as I once was...

[SpiralHawk]

30. "I did not have Black Ops with those towers, World Trade Center." _ Commander AWOL

[stillcool]

17. I've been reading about the government...

for a few years now, and the only anomaly I see regarding 9/11 is the geographic location. As far as hiring goes, I'm sure the military has a job for you. Some links for you
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/
http://www.fpif.org/
http://www.globalpolicy.org/
http://www.globalresearch.ca/
http://www.globalsecurity.org/index.html
http://newsmine.org/
http://covertaction.org//component/option,com_frontpage/Itemid,1/

[TheWraith]

38. Welcome to DU, and you're absolutely right.

People act like the kind of fantasies outlined here are plausible, but they forget the thousands and thousands of people who would be needed to pull it off. And none of them seems to have an answer for how they believe that every media outlet, every eyewitness and first responder (save for a few claims which are always left anonymous), and every person needed to control the air defense network, could have been in on the plot without anyone ever saying anything about it.

[RedSock]

42. silliness

People act like the kind of fantasies outlined here are plausible, but they forget the thousands and thousands of people who would be needed to pull it off. And none of them seems to have an answer for how they believe that every media outlet, every eyewitness and first responder (save for a few claims which are always left anonymous), and every person needed to control the air defense network, could have been in on the plot without anyone ever saying anything about it.

Why do people persist in posting silliness like this?

"Thousands and thousands"? According to the US govt, less than two dozen were involved.

I have never met anyone -- or read any words written by anyone -- who believes that "every media outlet, every eyewitness and first responder and every person needed to control the air defense network" was in on the 9/11 plot.

Could you give us even one name of someone who truly believes that?

Only one name. That's all.

Thank you.

[TheWraith]

46. Yes, it is silliness.

"Why do people persist in posting silliness like this?"

I don't know, it defies all logic and reason. Oh, wait--you were talking about my post, weren't you?

""Thousands and thousands"? According to the US govt, less than two dozen were involved."

Actually, that statement isn't true. But moving on to the point: for the US government or agents thereof to have executed any of the various theories pushed around here, have you ever thought about how many conspirators would be needed? Let's start with the news media, since pretty much every theory is dependent on them covering up what really happened. You'd need to insure that none of the hundreds of reporters on the scene, or any of the others at broadcast centers, reported anything untoward--which, if you believe the theories, was happening almost continuously, what with the thermite, and the bombs, and the rockets from the Woolworth building, and the rayguns from outer space. You'd need to guarantee the silence of the hundreds of firefighters, paramedics, and police officers who were similarly in proximity to the towers.

It gets even stickier when you start talking about the theories that say that it wasn't a 747, there were no planes, there were other planes in the air, etcetera. You'd need to fake every one of the hundreds, more likely thousands of photos available of the towers, plus the dozens and dozens of videos--all almost instantly, since they would have to match up perfectly with the actual damage to the buildings and the smoke patterns.

Add on top of this the people who were actually executing the attack, whether you stipulate that it's rigging airplanes with remote control devices, or launching cruise missiles at the Pentagon, or planting bombs in the WTC, killing and disposing of all the people who were supposed to be on the planes, or what have you. Then figure in all the people who, in the frame of the CT, had to do something out of the ordinary in order to let it happen, or (going by some of the more outlandish theories) ignore obvious evidence that things weren't as they were portrayed. Air traffic controllers, both civilian and military, fighter pilots, command/control officers, FAA personell and administrators, pretty much the entire National Security Council and all the top defense officials... the list goes on.

Thousands and thousands may be a bit of an exaggeration on my part, but you're still talking high hundreds, more likely a thousand people at the least who would either know directly or indirectly about the plot. How many people have come forward to say that they were part of this? None. How many have come forward to say this isn't the way it was? A handful of anonymous hearsay reports.

Which is not to mention the thousands of people who were watching the event happen on the ground, who I think would have noticed if it was actually an Air Force plane that hit the tower, or if somebody was firing rockets from the Woolworth building.

As for no one claiming hundreds or thousands of conspirators, I'm not surprised in the least. None of the CTers ever actually like to say that, because it makes their entire web of supposition seem ridiculous--more so, anyway. But I have yet to see any of them explain how, precisely, these huge overarcing and extremely elaborate conspiracies were pulled off without a huge number of people involved, and without even one of those people having a crisis of conscience even years later.

[mrgerbik]

65. hmmm

...have you ever thought about how many conspirators would be needed? Let's start with the news media, since pretty much every theory is dependent on them covering up what really happened. You'd need to insure that none of the hundreds of reporters on the scene, or any of the others at broadcast centers, reported anything untoward--which, if you believe the theories, was happening almost continuously, what with the thermite, and the bombs, and the rockets from the Woolworth building, and the rayguns from outer space. You'd need to guarantee the silence of the hundreds of firefighters, paramedics, and police officers who were similarly in proximity to the towers.

Seems to me lots of reporters at the time were reporting hearing huge explosions. Not to mention the hundreds of witnesses outside the media. The reporters are nothing... everybody should know by now that the media is basically controlled. The control isn't dictatorial by any means, its a framework you have to maneuver within to keep your job (and reputation within your circles). You are ABSOLUTELY naive to think all the major media outlets don't feel the pressure to conform.

It gets even stickier when you start talking about the theories that say that it wasn't a 747, there were no planes, there were other planes in the air, etcetera. You'd need to fake every one of the hundreds, more likely thousands of photos available of the towers, plus the dozens and dozens of videos--all almost instantly, since they would have to match up perfectly with the actual damage to the buildings and the smoke patterns.

Please don't string theories together and treat them as all equal in strength. There are many ideas being presented... your naive black-and-white mishmashing of theories tells me you should research some more and come to your OWN conclusions.

Add on top of this the people who were actually executing the attack, whether you stipulate that it's rigging airplanes with remote control devices, or launching cruise missiles at the Pentagon, or planting bombs in the WTC, killing and disposing of all the people who were supposed to be on the planes, or what have you. Then figure in all the people who, in the frame of the CT, had to do something out of the ordinary in order to let it happen, or (going by some of the more outlandish theories) ignore obvious evidence that things weren't as they were portrayed. Air traffic controllers, both civilian and military, fighter pilots, command/control officers, FAA personell and administrators, pretty much the entire National Security Council and all the top defense officials... the list goes on.

How many "hundreds" of people do you assume it would take to remotely fly an aircraft?
How many people do you assume it would take to launch a missile? 10's? 100's? 1000's? (For the record I'm not in full agreement with the missile attack theory)
How many people would you assume it would take to rig up explosives in 2 or 3 high rises if time wasn't a constraint?

in light of the "1000's of people" theory I have my own observation/question as to how many people may be a witness and not even know it:

How many people do you suppose saw odd things and didn't (and still don't) ponder their significance (or come out and tell all) either because of
a) they were/are scared to say anything (because of intimidation, bribes, whatever reasons)
b) they were/are following orders...when you follow orders, its just that... period... no questions asked
c) they held/hold their leaders in such high regard that doubt and denial of any implication on their part was the biggest factor in their reasoning and cognitive abilities

Again, you assume that everybody had to be in on "it" for the plan to happen... WHY? Why not let confusion, massive fear and shock do its thing... let the cards fall where they do and afterwords force a story down people's throats that would help ease and soothe the stirred masses. Most people would rather have it that way anyways. Denial is a very strong force.

Thousands and thousands may be a bit of an exaggeration on my part, but you're still talking high hundreds, more likely a thousand people at the least who would either know directly or indirectly about the plot. How many people have come forward to say that they were part of this? None. How many have come forward to say this isn't the way it was? A handful of anonymous hearsay reports.

A handful? Hearsay? Where you been all this time? :rofl:

As for no one claiming hundreds or thousands of conspirators, I'm not surprised in the least. None of the CTers ever actually like to say that, because it makes their entire web of supposition seem ridiculous--more so, anyway. But I have yet to see any of them explain how, precisely, these huge overarcing and extremely elaborate conspiracies were pulled off without a huge number of people involved, and without even one of those people having a crisis of conscience even years later.

First off, you seem closed off to any ideas other then the regurgitated, hand-me-down and mostly BS that is the OCT. You seem to have made up you mind, so I will throw this last thing in here...

You shouldn't ever assume you know how people of completely different class and social structures operate day to day, nonetheless over time through generations. Unless you are of an "elite" background, your biggest mistake, I dare to say, is your ASSUMPTIONS of people actions. You are juxtaposing your moods/emotions/thoughts/ideas/state-of-mind upon a completely different breed of human being, IMO. The pieces of the puzzle don't, and never will, fit properly until you shed light on the motivations of the super-rich and super-powerful mindsets of the world.

Do you think the most industrious, wealthy and power hungry people in the world just sit around drinking cocktails and eating caviar all day? They got super-wealthy and powerful for a reason ya'know.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Generarth]

52. Who said they didn't screw up? nt

[spooked911]

69. blowing stuff up via covert operations isn't so complicated

and covering up stuff is what the rest of the govt does real well

[The Witch]

8. i hope he is aware of his position.

And I hope frank is a pseudonym.

[pocoloco]

11. Check out "Loose Change, Second Edition"

WWW.LOOSECHANGE911.COM

[rman]

27. Don't

Rather check out "9/11 Press for Truth"
http://www.911pressfortruth.com/

A clip: "Kissinger Vs. the 9/11 Families"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcxjJDlbnC4
"After fighting the White House for a year, the 9/11 families learned in November 2002 they would finally get their independent investigation. President Bush's first act was to name former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger to chair the 9/11 Commission.
The families would soon confront Kissinger about some disturbing skeletons they had discovered in his closet."

The whole thing:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5589099104255077250

[merh]

15. This video from a White House Press Briefing on 2/27/01

kinda makes you wonder if they ignored the offer on purpose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDvVZ2Gn-9g

Discussed here http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x16718

Q Ari, according to India Globe, the Taliban in Afghanistan, they have offered that they are ready to hand over Osama bin Laden to Saudi Arabia if the United States would drop its sanctions, and they have a kind of deal that they want to make with the United States. Do you have any comments?

MR. FLEISCHER: Let me take that and get back to you on that.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/briefings/20010227.html

KO about this video & the admin's lies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eux9_cAjYqE&mode=related&search=

[AngryAmish]

16. What is his name?

I'm sure we can hear all about his story somewhere online. It would be an interesting read.

[Canuckistanian]

19. Does anyone remember the story of this one fireman?

He said that he was in the stairwell of either of the two towers and said he heard an explosion.

From below.

He said that the blast wave knocked him off his feet and lifted the helmet off his head.

I remember that statement along with several others who recounted the same thing - an explosion on one of the lower floors.

[bpcmxr]

23. That fireman appears here:

http://www.911revisited.com/video.html

compelling documentary, btw.

[Canuckistanian]

41. Thanks!

I'll have to get the DVD, I can't watch online videos on dial-up.

[Contrite]

58. Not only firemen reported that.

I read it in survivor stories, one in particular was a guy who was on the 103rd floor and escaped--hearing explosions below and reports of an explosion on the 60th floor as he did so.

[hedgehog]

31. Eyewitness testimony can be very wrong, especially if the

event is a traumatic one. Toss in the fact that we are generally not prepared to be a witness and unconsciously reassemble events to form a coherent narrative. I've witnessed car accidents and "remembered" things happening that are physically impossible. It's not unusual to remember events out of order. The brain will try to match what it sees for the first time against things that it already knows about.

Look at some of the comments above. People here are willing to believe that a person trapped for 27 hours could think it was two days. Doesn't it make sense that the sights and sounds of that day could also be mis-remembered?

[Codeine]

35. Oh, ghod.

Can't somebody move this bullshit into the Dungeon where it belongs? Nobody was trapped under Tower 1 for two days, and the notion that there were "warheads" in the buildings is beyond stupid.

[BeFree]

40. Looks like you got your way

It has been censored, and rightly so, according to some. But some would disagree. Ah, well, we shall always disagree on some things, eh? Like who is stupid enough to think they can, off hand, tell others what to discuss.

Two days: September 11 almost all day, and September 12, till 10am or so would indeed constitute two days, would it not? The poor chap didn't say 48 hours, he said "two days" he was trapped.

[Codeine]

43. Censored?

You're still discussing it, aren't you? :shrug:

[Codeine]

44. Besides,

the firefighters trapped in the North tower were stuck for around four hours before rescue.

[wildbilln864]

39. Thank you for this contribution, Ghost....

Please keep us informed of anything new. And welcome to the dungeon! :hi:

[stillcool]

45. typical....

why call it a 'discussion' forum? Why not a regurgitation forum? Nothing can be discussed without a link to a major corporately owned media establishment. Isn't that hysterical? If I see something, and do not report what will not be reported anyway...that makes my experience bullshit. :rofl: However, what the government reports is true until it is absolutely debunked in part and in full. Discrepancies are not accepted unless the whole of the report can be proven false. Love that justice.

[MervinFerd]

51. Bullshit falls to the dungeon....... nt.

[Generarth]

54. Yes, the biggest bullshit story of the 21st century n/t

[Kingshakabobo]

55. Bullshit! No one was trapped for two days.

Even if he BELIEVED he was trapped for two days, don't you think someone would have clued him in by now(5 years later) about the actual time frame? Why would he still be peddling the "two day" bullshit?


Bullshit.

[Contrite]

60. A structural engineer wrote this

Thursday, September 13

Next morning, on arriving at the corner of Church and Vesey Streets, I saw three pieces of equipment removing the sidewalk from the plaza area near the staircase. Two "spiders," or single-person, cable-mounted hoists, were on the plaza, having been used the night before to lower rescue workers into the concourse and shopping levels.

I walked onto West Street and was enlisted in a line of people moving rubble piece by piece. At times like this, there's no choice but to get your hands dirty and do whatever you can. On this day, I saw seven people rescued from the rubble.

http://www.architectureweek.com/2001/1107/building_1-2.html

[seatnineb]

61. Nice find Contrite! n/t

[Make7]

62. kick ( n/t )

[Bolo Boffin]

63. If the explosives in the basement contributed to the tower collapse

Why did the collapse start from the top and work its way down?

Why was the core left standing after the collapse?

Why was a section of the core still standing in the days after 9/11?

The ONLY way explosions in the basement help the towers fall is by affecting the core. The perimeter columns don't go down into the basement. And yet the core remained standing after the first part of the collapse, and a section of the core remained standing until the cleanup workers dismantled it.

Being buried under the debris doesn't mean that this mystery witness is correct about explosives in the building. Hearing explosions doesn't mean explosives were there. The evidence shows that the towers fell without any further human assistance than the hijackers flying passenger jets into them.

[petgoat]

67. Taking out some of the core columns at the base would have

the effect of stressing and straining the entire
core. Since the core was built with a safety
factor of three, many of the core columns could
have been compromised this way without risking
immediate collapse.

Then when the top-down destruction was initiated,
the pre-strained core would more easily come apart.

[truedelphi]

83. I'm watching the video suggested in a post above

http://www.911revisited.com/video.html

And in between the 12 and 14 minute mark, you can see whole Chunks of the building's sides
being blown out slightly - if the building was simply "Pancaking" I don'tthink you'd see that

On edit: I was especially interested in the film at 14:15 and at 18:59

[EVDebs]

70. "Hearing explosions doesn't mean explosives were there"

What parallel universe is this possible in ? String theory posits ll of them so I guess it's possible, just not probable.

[Bolo Boffin]

72. Explosions != explosives.

You are affirming the consequent, EV. This is possible in your parallel universe of illogic.

[EVDebs]

73. Talk louder, I can't hear you will all that noise !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWWmNpsedNA

[Bolo Boffin]

74. The same video of an explosion from 7. It proves just what it did before: nothing. n/t

[EVDebs]

75. Hey same as all your blathering talkingpoints from Mackey's article !

It proves nothing. Let's do something constructive and get a new investigation since the Bushco CYA ops NIST report, 9-11 Omissions report Fema etc etc have so dropped the ball.

[Bolo Boffin]

76. Please. You still haven't explained how explosions in the basement contributed

to a collapse when the core stood after the major part of the collapse.

[EVDebs]

77. This core ? There's not much left of it...

Let the pics speak for themselves

Before


After


Flashes = explosions every third floor ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtpWu-XZ7kM&watch_response

[Bolo Boffin]

78. Yes. that core.

That is above the basement, is it not? If explosives were used to sever the core in the basement and bring the building down, that core would not be there.

And the nearby still-standing perimeter column shows that the core is still erect there up to the seventh floor. Ask me how. Go ahead.

And much more of the core was standing after the initial collapse.

Think this through. If you cut the legs of a table to make the table fall down, the legs fall down too. They fall down first.

The core is still there. Did you get it this time? Concentrate until reality bangs its way through your assumptions.

Pardon me for not holding my breath.

[EVDebs]

79. Up to the 7th floor ? With the flashes going down the sides..every 3rd fl or so

Look at the base of the original photo in the my post above; that 7th floor is about the start of ground level, from the top of the basement area.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtpWu-XZ7kM&watch_response

Again, you've proven nothing as there is hardly any Core there. WE need a new investigation to explain the anomalies you won't touch. Holding your ears and running around yelling 'no explosions, no exlposions' does you no good when confronted with the evidence. Fires and gravity don't explain this.

[Bolo Boffin]

84. Yes. Up to the seventh floor.

Ask me why I say that. It has to do with a feature of the perimeter columns at the seventh floor. That's a big hint. Can you figure out what I'm talking about from that?

I have proven that there IS core there, which there should not be if bombs in the basement contributed to the collapse of the buildings. The core should not be there.

I'm not running around saying, "No explosions, no explosions." Far from it. People report explosions. I say, "Yes, and there are many things that could be exploding or be heard and thought to be explosions in the buildings."

This is your argument:

If bombs are blowing up in the building, people close enough will hear explosions.

People close to the WTC towers heard explosions.

Therefore, bombs are blowing up in the building.

But since there are many things that could be interpreted as explosions (including many things that were in the buildings that could explode!), you are committing the logical fallacy of affirming the consequent.

Explosions do not equal explosives. That is what I am going to keep repeating until you express your understanding of it.

Again you will forgive me for not holding my breath.

[EVDebs]

85. "I have proven that there IS core there" -- 25% of a core ? CD still probable

That pittance of a few columns survived out of how many ? While the entire perimeter of the WTC has vanished ?



with this diagram below showing the core column layout,


"The diagram above is the layout and labelling of the core columns
according to the blueprints. North is up."



How many of those 'core' columns are standing compared to the original total ? CD would use gravity to do most of the work so to pull a bldg they wouldn't have to blow ALL columns as you presuppose. So about 12 out of 47 core columns survived. What happened to the other 36 that should have survived as you presuppose ? You will agree with me that that picture of the aftermath shows not an entire CORE surviving but at most only 25% ?

You've proven that taking out 75% of the core would be enough to bring down the WTC, gravity can do the rest.

You sound like a good used car salesman. If you try to sell me a car without the engine or tires you haven't sold me a car. Just like this, the core of which you speak is barely there, less than 25%. You're pointing at a tire and telling me "CAR" !

That's not a core with 47 columns, that's remnants of the core with a few girders still sticking up. Where's the other 36 columns..

Where you can make yourself useful is in identifying which of those columns are represented in the picture of the aftermath. That woud help establish which columns from the colored diagram of the layout of the core are.

Give me your list of which 12 you think match up with the diagram of the 6 X 8 layout.

[Bolo Boffin]

86. Explain to me why even ONE core column should be left standing

in a building that had explosives blowing up the core in the basement.

You are off in Straw Man Land. You are talking about irrelevant shit. If the BOMBS blew up the CORE in the BASEMENT, then the CORE should not be there in ANY PERCENTAGE at the level of the SEVENTH FLOOR.

I don't blame you for not trying to refute something so clear. But realize that your smoke-blowing efforts are recognized as such.

[Kingshakabobo]

66. So the guy knew there were warheads in the basement and said nothing?

This guy is a few sandwiches short of a picnic.