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New Yorker: the Franklin scandal shows how the pro-Israel lobby AIPAC

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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 02:35 PM
Original message
New Yorker: the Franklin scandal shows how the pro-Israel lobby AIPAC
Edited on Sun Jul-03-05 02:36 PM by Nothing Without Hope
works to shape American foreign policy

The American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) lobbies for Israel’s financial and physical security. It is one of the most powerful lobbies in Washtington, closely connected with – and influential in the election or defeat of – many members of Congress, and its pressure affects decisions made by the US government and all aspects of Israeli national security. Read the article and see how far and how deeply this goes.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/050704fa_fact
The New Yorker – “Letter From Washtington”

REAL INSIDERS


by JEFFREY GOLDBERG
A pro-Israel lobby and an F.B.I. sting.
Issue of 2005-07-04
Posted 2005-06-27

(snip)

AIPAC’s leaders can be immoderately frank about the group’s influence. At dinner that night with Steven Rosen, I mentioned a controversy that had enveloped AIPAC in 1992. David Steiner, a New Jersey real-estate developer who was then serving as AIPAC’s president, was caught on tape boasting that he had “cut a deal” with the Administration of George H. W. Bush to provide more aid to Israel. Steiner also said that he was “negotiating” with the incoming Clinton Administration over the appointment of a pro-Israel Secretary of State. “We have a dozen people in his”—Clinton’s—“headquarters . . . and they are all going to get big jobs,” Steiner said. Soon after the tape’s existence was disclosed, Steiner resigned his post. I asked Rosen if AIPAC suffered a loss of influence after the Steiner affair. A half smile appeared on his face, and he pushed a napkin across the table. “You see this napkin?” he said. “In twenty-four hours, we could have the signatures of seventy senators on this napkin.”

(snip)

Unlike American neoconservatives, who have openly supported the Likud Party over the more liberal Labor Party, AIPAC does not generally take sides in Israeli politics. But on Iran AIPAC’s views resemble those of the neoconservatives. In 1996, Rosen and other AIPAC staff members helped write, and engineer the passage of, the Iran and Libya Sanctions Act, which imposed sanctions on foreign oil companies doing business with those two countries; AIPAC is determined, above all, to deny Iran the ability to manufacture nuclear weapons. Iran was a main focus of this year’s AIPAC policy conference, which was held in May at the Washington Convention Center. Ariel Sharon and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, among others, addressed five thousand AIPAC members. One hall of the convention center was taken up by a Disney-style walk-through display of an Iranian nuclear facility. It was kitsch, but not ineffective, and Rosen undoubtedly would have appreciated it. Rosen, however, was not there. He was fired earlier this year by Howard Kohr, nine months after he became implicated in an F.B.I. espionage investigation. Rosen’s lawyer, Abbe Lowell, expects him to be indicted on charges of passing secret information about Iranian intelligence activities in Iraq to an official of the Israeli Embassy and to a Washington Post reporter. A junior colleague, Keith Weissman, who served as an Iran analyst for AIPAC until he, too, was fired, may face similar charges.

(snip)

The person who, in essence, ended Rosen’s career is a fifty-eight-year-old Pentagon analyst named Lawrence Anthony Franklin, who is even more preoccupied with Iran than Steven Rosen. Franklin, until recently the Pentagon’s Iran desk officer, was indicted last month on espionage charges. The Justice Department has accused him of giving “national-defense information” to Rosen and Weissman, and classified information to an Israeli official. Franklin has pleaded not guilty; a tentative trial date is set for September. If convicted, he will face at least ten years in prison.

(snip)

Even some of AIPAC’s most vigorous critics do not see the Rosen affair as a traditional espionage case. James Bamford, who is the author of well-received books about the National Security Agency, and an often vocal critic of Israel and the pro-Israel lobby, sees the case as a cautionary tale about one lobbying group’s disproportionate influence: “What Pollard did was espionage. This is a much different and more unique animal—this is the selling of ideology, trying to sell a viewpoint.” He continued, “Larry Franklin is not going to knock on George Bush’s door, but he can get AIPAC, which is a pressure group, and the Israeli government, which is an enormous pressure group, to try to get the American government to change its policy to a more aggressive policy.” Bamford, who believes that Weissman and Rosen may indeed be guilty of soliciting information and passing it to a foreign government, sees the case as a kind of brushback pitch, a way of limiting AIPAC’s long—and, in Bamford’s view, dangerous—reach.

(snip)

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
1. AIPAC and OSP
Edited on Sun Jul-03-05 02:42 PM by nadinbrzezinski
Read this, will make the connection far more chillng still... can you say bungled intel operation?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4010019
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Yes - I saw that. Fascinating - and chilling - to see the facts assembled
this way!
:scared:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I can tell you one thing
this house of cards is collapsing and historians will have lots of fun tyring to reconstruct it... with modern tech, how much info is disapearing in wiped out drives?
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. Countdown until this thread is buried in the sandpit
10...9...8...7...6...
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Why do you think so? Lack of interest at DU?
We should be paying attention to this. It's one piece in the way US foreign policy decisions are put together as well as an influence on who is elected to our Congress.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
20. silly me to be so naive - I can now understand why you wrote this.
I do hope we can keep this thread from being a flame war. We need to gather the facts and try to understand them, putting the truth and future security and wellbeing for all above all other incentives.

The AIPAC is not identical in its aims with either the Likud or with the neocons. But there is overlap and, given the importance of the consequences, we must pay close attention to the policies and decisions that are being made and how they are influenced by this powerful lobby.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 02:46 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 02:51 PM
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. This has nothing whatsoever to do with religion. This is a NATIONAL
POLICY dialog, not a religious one. I don't recall saying that AIPAC is the ONLY lobby affecting US policy, but anyone who claims it's not one of the most important is either uniinformed or "mis-speaking."

The New Yorker article puts it this way:

AIPAC is a leviathan among lobbies, as influential in its sphere as the National Rifle Association and the American Association of Retired Persons are in theirs, although it is, by comparison, much smaller. (AIPAC has about a hundred thousand members, the N.R.A. more than four million.)


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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
32. And much less power then
Edited on Sun Jul-03-05 05:08 PM by Coastie for Truth
Service Employees International Union

American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees

American Federation of Teachers

National Education Association

International Association of Fire Fighters

Fraternal Order of Police

International Brotherhood of Teamsters

North American Automobile Manufacturers Association

AMERICAN BAR ASSOCIATION

AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION

ACADEMY OF TRIAL LAWYERS

AMERICAN HOSPITAL ASSOCIATION

AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF HEALTH PLANS

NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF MANUFACTURERS

U.S. CHAMBER OF COMMERCE


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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #32
47. Yes, but they are not pushing for regime change in Iran.
And they are not representing a foreign government.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #47
52. I would make the argument that
Edited on Mon Jul-04-05 03:35 PM by Coastie for Truth
Cheney and James Baker<1> are tools of Big Oil and the American Petroleum Institute - and they are pushing for regime change in Iran and Iraq.

See my append 46 at http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=95114&mesg_id=95188 for the point that all of this obfuscation is just that - so much obfuscation -- all of this wooing of Jewish voters by kissing Sharon's butt didn't get Bush the "expected" votes--

Here's a link to the original story -- http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/story/0,13918,1310809,00.html

Note - not Ha'aretz or the Jerusalem Post or the New York Times or the Washington Post - but to the Guardian.

And the actrual election results - reported in American media and therefore not as credible as the Guardian - showed that Bush did his worse among Jewish voters then his polling indicated.

So all of this butt kissing and Perle campaigning and Wolfie campaigning -- didn't pay off.


=======================
Footnote
1. Bush I Secretary of State and WH Chief of Staff; Consigliere to "Big Oil", Neal Bush's lawyer; House of Saud lawyer.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. yes, certainly. Politics is making strange bedfellows here. The US
Edited on Mon Jul-04-05 03:33 PM by Nothing Without Hope
neocons and the faction that supports AIPAC both want regime change in Iran, but what they want to gain from it is not identical. Overlapping, yes, but not identical.

For the neocons, it's empire and oil.

For AIPAC, it's probably mostly what they believe is required for Israel's security. They support the neocons on Iraq and Iran because it advances this goal of theirs.

Because they both want to change the government of Iran, AIPAC is supporting this neocon goal. I DON'T want the US to invade Iran and I DON'T believe that the Iranians would welcome US "liberators" as the neocons keep claiming. I also don't bellieve that Iran is ready to nuke the US, as the neocons are also claiming.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. AIPAC and the American Jews
wouldn't make a good pimple on Big Oil's left Butt Cheek (that's US Coast Guard "Coastie" talk).

My Goodness- Big Oil dances to the Oil States' music and won't even hire Jews -- see and . And that boycott has been going on unabated since my Chemical Engineering undergrad days - and I am in my 60's.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #6
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. It is only the neocons, which include Jews, that are at fault
Certainly the PNAC document was signed by people of different religious backgrounds. They are the real enemy!

The problem with AIPAC is that it has become an accomplice of the neocon agenda, confusing support for Israel with support for American imperialism.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #18
27. It's not that cut and dry. AIPAC's main concern is NOT the Iraq war,
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. It is only chilling when 1,800 GIs have died in Iraq
thanks in no small part to groups such as AIPAC and their allies in the media, pukes such as Bill Safire, Judith Miller, Tom Friedman, that played such a key role in selling the bogus story about WMDs in Iraq.

The same cast of neocon characters are now agitating for war against Iran and Syria.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 02:48 PM
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. This is an excellent compilation! Thank you - this shows one of the
great strengths of DU as a resource for gathering facts and insights about issues. This thread has now become a RESOURCE thanks to the replies already posted.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Sources
Some of the sources are written by anti-Semites. I don't generally consider them "good" sources, anymore than I would consider David Duke a "good" source on race relations. Some of the pieces are accurate and fair reporting, but some are a bit more insidious.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Would you please indicate which you feel fall into the two categories?
I certainly don't believe the New Yorker article is anti-semite.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. No prob.
Juan Cole is questionable. He has some pieces, other than the one mentioned, that are suspect. But, Justin Raimondo is an anti-Semite. Some of his articles don't even try to hide it. The interesting thing is he is reviled on both the left and the right. Also, antiwar.com is rife with anti-Semitism. There are a few legitimate pieces, but you have to wade through filth to get to them.
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The Crazy Canadian Donating Member (260 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Juan Cole and Justin Raimondo are not anti-Semites.
I've been reading these guys for a long time and they do excellent reporting. They're also doing a great job fighting off the neocons.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #15
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The Crazy Canadian Donating Member (260 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. I've never read anything like that from them.
The only way to settle this is unless you got some quotes from them saying that.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Research
I have not put together a definitive piece. Perhaps, I should since so many on this site seem to rush to their defense. So, you mae up your own mind. Type in their names, in Google, and add the word "Jew." See what hits you get. I am not talking about right-wing slam pieces, although some them lay it pretty well. Find the articles in their own words. Now, watch for the tricky part...they both like to conflate Israel and the "Jewish State." You will find some great filth from them both, although Cole is a little harder to pin down.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. They both like to conflate -- ??
:wtf:

Perhaps you should UNCONFLATE "Israel and the "Jewish State" for those of us who are just plain drop-dead ignorant of this important distinction (which automatically makes us anti-Semites, I presume).
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Example
Israel controls DC. That is just plain ignorance.

Jews control DC. That is anti-Semitic.

Now, if you interchange Israel and Jewish State as a matter of routine, then it is easy to draw the conclusion the 'Israel' and 'Jews' is interchangeable. Therefore, it is easy to see that people who tend to do that are one of two things (maybe both)...ignorant or anti-Semitic.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Deleted message
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. I don't know about that -- you haven't provided any links so we can
see for ourselves.

MEANWHILE, I'm reminded of the article (interview) I love to quote in these types of discussions (and the whole article is worth a read, IMO):

Halper: Yes. Anti-Semitism feeds on the idea that Israel is a victim. The Foreign Ministry of Israel invented a new form of anti-Semitism in the last few years called the 'New anti-Semitism,' and they then found some professors willing to give it some academic credibility. The New anti-Semitism that is now being spread all over says that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism, period. And it has been very effective.

http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/module.php?mod=book&op=print&id=806
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Do your own search.
Anything I provide will be shot down as "biased." So, as I suggested in another post, look it up and read for yourself and draw your own conclusions. Just because every article they write is not anti-Semitic, does not change the fact they have written anti-Semitic filth.

BTW, I know what anti-Semitism is and isn't. Not all pieces about Israel or her policies are anti-Semitic, anymore than all pieces about the US are un-American. However, some pieces are laced with anti-Semitism. The sad thing is the left is willing to look the other way. Then, important discussions and REAL connections are lost because people are unable (unwilling?) to see through anti-Semitism and legitimate criticism of a nation and her policies. The OP is a legitimate complaint about lobby issues in this country.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. If it's not important enough to you to support your claim with
specifics, it for DAMN sure isn't important enough to me to go read and sort through tons of links at both sites to try to intuit what, precisely, you're objecting to.

IOW: Fuhgeddaboudit.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Well, THAT'S an openminded approach.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-05-05 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #23
87. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #87
88. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 02:18 AM
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89. Deleted message
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #89
91. Did you know that many US Mosques are full of terrorists?
I didn't know that little gem until I was led to that cesspit. Boy, anyone would think Israelpundit doesn't much like Muslims...

Violet...
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not systems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #91
92. That piece read like...
a mini-"Protocols of Elders of Islam".

Amazing that people use sources like that to back up
their opinions here.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #92
93. I think sometimes people should take more care when googling...
I don't think unless I'm very wrong about him that bta would hang out somewhere like that. What's most likely is that he did a quick google and didn't check the source he was using to see if it was credible or not. All he saw was something that he thought backed up his accusation that Cole is anti-semitic. At least I hope he didn't go and read more on the site and still use it as a source because it's as foul a source as Little Green Fascists is...

Violet...
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not systems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 02:51 AM
Response to Reply #93
94. The dangers of google...
you are probably right.

It was very LGF.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #88
90. Spin indeed...
Edited on Wed Jul-06-05 02:58 AM by Violet_Crumble
Do you share the opinion of the writer of that nonsense?? Correct me if I'm wrong, but sifting through the non-stop smear on Juan Cole, there are two things on which that blogger bases their accusation that Cole is anti-semitic:

1. Cole speaks of the influence of Zionist and lobby groups on US media and the US Congress. Speaking of this influence makes him anti-semitic, apparently, because some people have no willingness or possibly ability to comprehend that influence is not the same thing as control...

2. Cole dares to point out in his article 'The Good Israelis' that Israelis are not all of one mind on the occupation and that "Most Israelis are not racists and a majority consistently tells pollsters that they would gladly exchange land for peace." This makes him anti-semitic. Hey, if that's the case, then why isn't pointing out that there's good and bad amongst Palestinians considered to be anti-Arab?

What I'd find just a bit more convincing than providing some blogger's twisted misinterpretations of Cole's posts that by extension paint every person who shows sympathy for the Palestinian people as being anti-semitic, is for Cole's direct words without the misrepresentation...


Violet...
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #88
95. Well,that was objective..!!
which would,I hope, provide a very large clue
as to the validity of the statement that 'such&such is
a anti-Semite'.

If the only evidence provided is from 'israpundit',then
the accused is innocent.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #87
101. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 02:11 PM
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102. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 03:15 PM
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105. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 03:35 PM
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #106
107. Details, indeed
The post you cited from that site was actually written at another site and reposted. It is the same done here. Are all reposts here reflective of the entirety of DU? I don't think so. So, why is that repost indicative of all posts at that site?
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not systems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #107
108. What did you think of that post?
Did it seem bigoted to you?

I clicked through several posts there and it didn't
seem to be the exception but the rule on your new blog.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #108
109. my thoughts
I thought it was repulsive. Not only was it blatantly prejudiced, it was highly inaccurate and ignorant.

And, if you click though this site, you will see the same thing...others reposting from other sites.

Perhaps we should also stop posting from "CounterPunch" because this article Confronting Israeli Myth-Making was on that site? Does that one post (and, actually there are several more similar to it), mean that NO articles produced there are useful? Or does that only apply to sites deemed "pro-Israeli?"

BTW, that post I mentioned was posted here and locked because Lithos felt that "(u)pon re-reading there are indeed many inflammatory statements which are made without any substantive backing material."
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not systems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #109
110. Post from where ever...
Edited on Wed Jul-06-05 05:11 PM by not systems
I think frontpage and counterpunch are about equal in their bias.

Both are fine.

I think the Israpundant was a couple grades worse than them
more on the rense level.

I'm happy to hear you felt the same way I did about that article.

Take care.
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Frederik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #109
132. What's wrong with the article?
I thought "Confronting Israeli Myth-Making" was a good article.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #132
133. Your opinion
You thought it was good, I thought it was a load of unsubstantiated crap and outright lies. It appears the moderator felt the same.

"Upon re-reading there are indeed many inflammatory statements which are made without any substantive backing material."
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #101
111. I would have appreciated it if you could have answered my question...
Rather than just snipping out the first sentence of my post in order to act as though I hadn't asked you the blatantly obvious question: Do you agree with the views of that blogger on why he alleges Cole is anti-semitic?

Here's the rest, and I'd appreciate an answer...

1. Cole speaks of the influence of Zionist and lobby groups on US media and the US Congress. Speaking of this influence makes him anti-semitic, apparently, because some people have no willingness or possibly ability to comprehend that influence is not the same thing as control...

2. Cole dares to point out in his article 'The Good Israelis' that Israelis are not all of one mind on the occupation and that "Most Israelis are not racists and a majority consistently tells pollsters that they would gladly exchange land for peace." This makes him anti-semitic. Hey, if that's the case, then why isn't pointing out that there's good and bad amongst Palestinians considered to be anti-Arab?

So, how does that make Cole anti-semitic?


As for yr comment trying to put EI on the same level as that rancidly racist blog you posted a link to, EI is not bigoted. It shows a strong bias on the conflict, but that is not bigotry, except to those who hold the strange belief that anything or anyone who disagrees with their own views on the conflict is anti-semitic...

Violet...

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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #111
112. Answers
The snip was not acting "as though I hadn't asked you the blatantly obvious question," it was proving that a source provided was shot down, as predicted. I didn't realize their is an approved list of places on can post. As for the site itself, perhaps you should read some of the comments I made to not systems.

And, yes, I agree with some of what the blogger said.

Cole says :"All this can happen because there is a vacuum in U.S. political discourse. A handful of special interests in the United States virtually dictate congressional policy on some issues. With regard to the Arab-Israeli conflict, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee and a few allies have succeeded in imposing complete censorship on both houses of Congress. No senator or representative dares make a speech on the floor of his or her institution critical of Israeli policy, even though the Israeli government often violates international law and UN Security Council resolutions (it would violate more such resolutions, except that the resolutions never got passed because only one NSC member, the U.S., routinely vetoes them on behalf of Tel Aviv.)" (From: AIPAC's Overt and Covert Ops) BTW, "dictate" is defined as 1) To prescribe with authority; impose or 2)To control or command. Implying AIPAC 'virtually "controls"' the US Congress is not the same as "influencing."

As for the second part, the "Good Israelis" are the ones that prescribe to his views. So, does that make those who disagree with his ideas and views the "bad Israelis?" He pointed out something obvious, not all Israelis are of the same mind. How does this get him off the hook from his other statements? (That is a rhetorical statement.)

Since you missed my point, I will explain it this way... EI has some racist material on its site, just like the one I posted. Is all of EI bigoted? I didn't say it was, it is simply one-sided. And, like many one-sided Israeli sites, should it not be held up to the same standards? Just because someone has strong feelings about the conflict and fall to the Israeli side, does not, except in the eyes of some who hold the 'strange belief that anything or anyone who disagrees with their own views on the conflict' make them pro-Occupation or anti-Palestinian/Arab/Muslim.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #112
113. Your source was an incredibly bigoted one...
What did you expect? And where did I say there was any approved list of what you could and couldn't post? I didn't. I made what should be a common-sense suggestion that you take the few minutes required when googling to check any source to make sure it's not racist swill like that blog was...

Using the term 'virtually dictate' in one article when discussing the impact of lobby groups on politicians does not make someone anti-semitic. Maybe lobby groups work differently over there, but over here that's what their purpose for being is. They are formed in an attempt to influence and steer whatever policy they are interested in in a direction that they want. Some are way more successful than others for whatever reasons, and as I don't know and *shock* am not particularly interested in US lobby groups, I'm not even going to pretend I know how much influence particular lobby groups yield...

The blog post you linked to claimed that the comment about there being good and bad Israelis is anti-semitic. I asked you if you agreed with that and whether you think someone pointing out there's good and bad Palestinians is anti-Arab. I didn't ask you to reply by asking a question that could have been answered by reading Cole's article rather than solely relying on what a racist blogger has to say about him. This is what he was referring to when he said good and bad Israelis: 'Most Israelis are not racists and a majority consistently tells pollsters that they would gladly exchange land for peace.' He said nothing of the sort about good Israelis being ones who agree with his views and bad ones not agreeing with his views. Every society has its share of good and bad among its people and Israel is no different than any other society. That is a fact, and if pointing out that fact makes one anti-semitic, then somewhere along the line the term anti-semitic has been distorted beyond recognition...

You tried to equate EI with the bigotry-laden blog you posted a link to. That was the point you made, and yr point was totally wrong. Try comparing the blog to LFG or something along the lines of Stormfront and you'd be more on the mark. That's called holding something up to the same standards...

Violet...
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #113
116. Agree to disagree
I don't think the site I used was "incredibly bigoted," but it did have one post as such. It was incredibly biased. However, that post was not the post I posted. The one I did post was spot on. I find it interesting that you refer to the blogger as racist. Do you know him? Have you seen other work? Just musings, no need to respond.

As for EI, incredibly biased or incredibly bigoted....tomatoe, tomato. I don't think the WHOLE site is bigoted, but there are a few posts that are pretty bad.

We will just have to agree to disagree about Cole, the websites, and few other things. But, life goes on.

TTFN
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #116
119. You don't agree that blog is bigoted??
No, it isn't only one post. Do you need me to provide you with direct links to each and every time on that blog the Palestinian people are stereotyped as terrorists or where sarcastic comments are made about the 'peace-loving' Palestinian people? All it takes is to click on the main page and scroll down. That stuff is not only incredibly biased, it is incredibly bigoted, and I'm at a complete loss as to how anyone who accuses Juan Cole of being anti-semitic based on his use of the term 'virtually dictate' in one article when discussing lobby groups, and pointing out that there is good and bad amongst Israelis would fail to see that...

The post you used was NOT spot on at all. Not unless you believe that the posts of many good DUers who have also pointed out that there's good and bad amongst Israelis is anti-semitic...

No, there is a big difference between bias and bigotry. I can think of a lot of sources on the conflict, both 'pro-Israeli' and 'pro-Palestinian' that have varying degrees of bias (something very hard to escape when dealing with the conflict) but are not engaging in bigotry...

Just some musing of my own here: Do you know Juan Cole? After all, you accused him of being anti-semitic. Have you read his other work? See, unlike the cesspit that is that blog, Cole is a published author and an academic. What he produces can be called work. What that blog produces is nothing of the sort...

Violet...

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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #119
121. Public Figure
Edited on Wed Jul-06-05 10:24 PM by Behind the Aegis
Don't have to personally know him. I have read many of his pieces. And, I have read his own personal blog several times. My opinion is nonetheless changed. Hitler was a published author, as well. Getting something published doesn't make you an expert, just willing to sit down and write. And, no, I am not comparing Cole to Hitler, so in the name of civility, don't suggest I am.

On edit: Forgot to answer your question...no, that blog is not bigoted. It is biased. There may be a few bigoted posts, but the majority are reposts of articles from JPost, and a few other Israeli news sites. There is an occasional post from a 'vanity' site, but the majority were posts from news sites and asking for comments. Perhaps they don't have moderators.
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #121
126. Have you seen the main page of 'that blog'?
The one called Israpundit? Did you see the dozens of
links on the lefthand side of the page?

The media sites listed should give a pretty big
clue as to the 'bias' of the authors of Israpundit
& how extremist that 'bias' is.

The other links clearly show the perspective & viewpoint
of Israpundit,& I cannot see how anyone could say that
viewpoint is merely 'biased'.

I would say that Israpundit is biased,in the same way
that {insert-infamous-historical-character} is biased;
of course,I'm not comparing Israpundit to
{insert-infamous-&-notorious-historical-character}.

:)

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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #126
128. I saw it
I also saw a list of Arab media outlets also given. I don't often see that on sites that support the other side.

BTW...hope you and yours are well.
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 04:50 AM
Response to Reply #128
129. Are you serious?
How is that in any way relevant?

Do you still feel that Israpundit is merely 'biased'?

Are you seriously suggesting that there's nothing wrong
with the views & opinions expressed at Israpundit?

Do you share their opinion that these* media outlets
are 'anti-Israel'?

*
BBC News (UK)
UK Guardian
UK Mirror
National Public Radio (US)
UK Independent
The Nation (US)
New York Times
Washington Post
CNN (US)
Associated Press
Reuters
Christian Science Monitor (US)
LA Times
The Economist (UK)
International Herald Tribune
NBC/MSNBC/Newsweek
PBS
ABC News
CBS News
Minn Star Tribune
Chicago Tribune
Philadelphia Inquirer

And, don't forget;
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=95114&mesg_id=95339


btw,thanks for asking.


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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #128
130. Newsflash from Israpundit;
'Bulletin Board: A new article-contributor joins IsraPundit

I am pleased to announce that my fellow-Canadian Tim Dormain has joined us as an article-contributor. His first post appears on this IsraPundit page.

Tim was born in Toronto but was raised in Canada, Britain and the U.S. He attended the University of Arizona, where he studied English Literature. Tim moved to Alberta in 1981, where he met his Dutch wife, who was traveling through Canada for a year. They raised two children in the Canadian Rockies.

Tim's interest in issues related to Israel began after he became a Christian in 1979.

Tim's own website is The Black Kettle.'

From 'BlackKettle';

'About Me

Welcome! I am a non-denominational evangelical Christian living in Western Canada. I am married to a beautiful Dutch woman and we have two grown children. This site is a news and views blog from a conservative Christian perspective.'


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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #130
135. And?
Do we really need to explore all the contributing authors of EI? Nuts are both sides. My original post was removed because it is considered a vanity site...so, I really think this discussion has run its course.
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #135
136. It would 'have run it's course'
if you'd answered my questions;

or if you made clear that you consider Israpundit
to be as objectionable,as say lgf;

or if you'd made clear that there is no comparison
between ei & this rw blog.

You do not know why yer post linking to Israpundit
was removed; maybe it was because the blog mentioned
is run by 'conservative Christian evangelicals'.

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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #136
139. I answered your questions and I do know why it was removed.
Edited on Fri Jul-08-05 02:39 PM by Behind the Aegis
On edit: I just didn't answer the way you wanted me to answer.
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-05 05:23 AM
Response to Reply #139
140. I'm talking about these questions;

"Do you still feel that Israpundit is merely 'biased'?

Are you seriously suggesting that there's nothing wrong
with the views & opinions expressed at Israpundit?

Do you share their opinion that these* media outlets
are 'anti-Israel'?

*
BBC News (UK)
UK Guardian
UK Mirror
National Public Radio (US)
UK Independent
The Nation (US)
New York Times
Washington Post
CNN (US)
Associated Press
Reuters
Christian Science Monitor (US)
LA Times
The Economist (UK)
International Herald Tribune
NBC/MSNBC/Newsweek
PBS
ABC News
CBS News
Minn Star Tribune
Chicago Tribune
Philadelphia Inquirer"

Apologies if you have actually given an answer,
but I cannot see where you have,and sorry for being
a bore & all,but the views expressed at this rw blog
give me such concern that I would like to see some
recognition that you are aware of that concern,
even if you do not share it.

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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #116
127. Your quote;
--"As for EI, incredibly biased or incredibly bigoted....tomatoe, tomato. I don't think the WHOLE site is bigoted, but there are a few posts that are pretty bad."

Can you provide some links,please?

I would like to see those 'few posts'.


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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #127
131. .....
:dem:


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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #127
134. Article
This on another site, but was originally on EI. The author is a co-creator of EI. He calls for a "one state" solution, which basically means the death of the nation of Israel. I think that qualifies as bigoted in my mind.

http://www.countercurrents.org/pa-abunimah171003.htm

This one is very questionable:

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article2325.shtml

BTW, I love the fact that EI has a "Israel lobby watch." How is this different than IP saying, in their opinion, that certain news sources are biased against Israel? Seems both sides are "looking out for bias."
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #134
137. How so?
--"He calls for a "one state" solution, which basically means the death of the nation of Israel."

Why?

____________


'A one-state solution

A unitary Arab-Jewish homeland could bring lasting peace to the Middle East

Ahmad Samih Khalidi
Monday September 29, 2003
The Guardian

>snip

By positing one homeland for both sides, the one-state solution not only does away with the conflict over history and mutual legitimisation, but has practical political implications as well. Both sides can maintain their "right of return" without this being at the expense of the other, and Israeli settlers would not need to be removed from where they are today. Jerusalem could truly become the shared capital of a unitary Arab-Jewish state.

It would be sheer illusion to pretend that this idealised vision is about to wean Israel away from Zionism. Neither can the Palestinian national impulse be easily melded into some kind of fuzzy warm-hearted version of semitic brotherhood. But if the two-state solution simply is not to be, some truly serious questions must soon be asked: what is more important, democracy, or the Jewishness of the state? A Jewish state, or a homeland for Jews and Arabs alike? What is better: no Palestinian state at all, or a single state that provides them with equal rights alongside Jews?

There are alternatives to the one state/two-state paradigm; a slide towards apartheid, for example, or a drift towards ever-escalating resistance and violence, and the chances are that both sides will pursue them to the bitter end.

But the resilience of the democratic option should not be discounted. Unlike the two-state solution, its viability is not contingent on developments on the ground, but really is a matter of a change of hearts and minds. And yes, we do have the example of South Africa.

· Ahmad Samih Khalidi is a Palestinian writer and former negotiator and a senior associate member of St Antony's College, Oxford

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,10551,1051598,00.html


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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-05 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #137
138. Do you really not see an issue?
One nation, which I doubt would bear the name Israel, would be filled with Palestinians. They would out number Jews almost 5 to 1 (It may be 4 to 1). The Knesset would change, the PM would change, and the nation would change. Would they go as far as the Saudis and not allow Jews to live there? Well, we can only speculate. But, a one-state solution can only mean the death of Israel.
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not systems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. Unsupported slander...
Edited on Sun Jul-03-05 04:45 PM by not systems
I have never seen Raimondo "call for the expulsion of Jews from Israel"
or "siding with Hamas' philosophies".

Produce a link to support your unfounded slander, or realize
that you have no credibility in your accusations.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #29
39. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #39
77. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-05-05 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #39
80. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-05-05 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #29
81. Still no support for the slander
and when the methodology is addressed, that too is deleted.

unsubstantiated slander should not be allowed to stand unchallenged.

Remember though-- that speaking truth to power-- that the AIPAC lobby is the issue at hand-- not the lies of others-- is its own reward.
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not systems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-05-05 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #81
82. I have missed...
the comments that were removed but the original
one that made the unsupported accusation has now
been removed also.

After two days I would have expected a least some
attempt to back up the accusation.
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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-05-05 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. The earlier unsupported accusations against Dr. Cole
remain-- and nothing has been done except to attempt to sully his name and change the topic from the issues re: AIPAC

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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #81
97. Malikshah
The issue is two fold.

1) The issue is not Juan Cole so much as the forum in which he was cited, namely anti-war.com.

Anti-war.com has strong ties to Paleo-conservative/Libertarian groups and individuals such as SLS, the Cato foundation, Charles Koch, the Von Mises organization, Pat Buchanan and Lew Rockwell. Many of these individuals and those at anti-war.com have espoused bigoted/insensitive beliefs. There is also strong, conservative Libertarian agenda that is often cross with that of Democrats or Progressives. As a result Anti-war.com is not generally considered a valid source without specific framing of the context.

As an academic, you know you cannot just cite sources because they agree with you on one point. You have to know and understand the context, bias validity and gravitas of such a source. It would be like someone quoting Taha Husayn's theories without explaining or taking into context that they've been debunked and were a product of an ultra-nationalist during an age of rising Egyptian/Arab nationalism. The same goes with the Protocols.

2) As for AIPAC, the main evidence so far has only shown the culpability and hubris of a few leaders at the top. To discuss AIPAC as a tight-knit monolithic organization when in fact it is a loosely bound organization held mostly together by newsletter and email is absurd. To add to this the idea it is the controlling factor in US foreign policy, especially with such a singular focus, is to promote a stereotype.

I could go on about AIPAC being a typical lobbying or special interest group. I am not excusing the influence lobbyist groups have, but realize what has gone on is a result of the system, not anything special to AIPAC.

Lithos
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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #97
98. Lithos:
As this was a public response to me, I believe I have the right to respond in public.

As an academic I am aware of all these things. Thanks for the lecture.

Juan Cole was slandered. That was my point. It was pushed under the carpet and continues to be done.

My point was that the discussion of AIPAC was changed to one arguing whether or not Juan Cole et al were anti-semitic. In other words:

1) The subject was changed in an overt fashion.
2) I called folks on it.
3) My post was deleted
4) I was lectured on the point that I initially pointed out (i.e. Juan Cole being slandered was an attempt to go off point--i.e. the point was AIPAC)

5) Juan Cole has still been slandered without evidence and those offending posts remain.

This goes beyond the initial article regarding AIPAC (here we agree-- AIPAC being a lobbying group has many of the same problems of other lobbying groups--the added issue, though, being that AIPAC has a larger tie to foreign governments than, say, AARP or NRA-- that point should be clear)

The methods used to detract from the initial topic:

1) Have slandered a colleague and have been allowed to stand
2) Are not conducive to open debate, and when this is pointed out--the messenger (i.e. me) is silenced (i.e. deleted message)

I indeed learned quite a bit from your lecture, Lithos. Thank you.

Consider me educated. Peace out.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #98
120. About Dr. Cole
Thank you, now I understand your comment. Perhaps a bit of public clarification on some issues:

1) Attacks or strong innuendo against members of this board are never permitted. Many posts were removed from this thread for that reason.

2) Dr. Cole is considered a public figure w/r to this board in much the same sense as Rachel Corrie, Nonie Darwish, Justin Raimondo, and Michael Lerner are. Some are obviously of greater renown, others are of greater opprobrium. But all because of their activities have a distinct influence and relationship to the I/P discussion. Because politics and other personal issues are frequent drivers, this makes commentary about motivation fair game.

I will agree with you some comments are wholly unfair and likely due more to the source and context of citation. If Dr. Cole's work was sourced from Foreign Affairs, Ha'aretz, or the Guardian instead of anti-war.com, I think much of the criticism would have been muted.

Again, Dr. Cole is also not a member of this board (and even if he was a member and known as such, he still be would be considered a public figure). As such, he is not included in the same protections granted to members.

The fact that you are a friend and a colleague is a unique viewpoint. You have my sympathies here as these comments are indeed personal to him and thus to you. I imagine this is made all the harder for you to respond to because of what I freely admit are different standards for a member and a public figure.

3) As for threads getting side tracked. This happens frequently. The archives are littered with many such threads. I welcome comments (privately, please use PM) on how to keep this from happening without adding fuel to the ongoing debate about censorship.

Lithos



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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #120
122. Thanks for the reply, but
the public figure angle does not, alas work, when it comes to maligning someone's name. Although it's not a litigious issue, it's still an issue of how to conduct an open effective discussion and *how not to."

It is not a personal thing for me; rather it deals with the issue of unfounded lies being spread about folks (the issue of the website is a bit of a red herring) with aplomb just doesn't sit well with me.

Calling fair game on "public figures" is a bit too blase-- folks still have their careers, etc. I know for a fact (as it was made public knowledge) that Dr. Cole and others were recipients of numerous threatening e-mail once they were accused of all sorts of horrible things by campuswatch. Nothing like flooding an academic's e-mail box with thousand of spam e-mails. Are we to argue then that this is OK because a figure is "public?"

All I ask is that people are held to a consistent high standard of conduct.

peace out.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #122
123. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #122
124. It's how things work.
You yourself have made very disparaging comments against public figures including Ariel Sharon. Is this an inconsistent application of conduct? How does this differ from similar commentary on Abbas? Both have shown great hatred in their careers towards the other side.

You've also stated that journalists are biased by nature. If you assume a bias, isn't it appropriate to criticize them for that bias? What if someone feels that bias may be more than simple partisanship?

If so, then should we protect Dr. Cole but not Dr. Pipes? Of course not.

To create an open discussion, criticism of public figures must be allowed while criticism of members is not. It is the only way.

As a side note, criticism and harassment with intent to censor are two different things and should not be conflated.

L-
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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #124
125. Hmmm Sharon vs. Cole....
Sorry, that comparison is a bit too apples and oranges.

Your discussion of Pipes and Cole would've been closer, but still an inaccurate comparison.

Pipes' website targeted Cole, who, to that point was merely a Professor of History-- the result was hundreds of spam/hate e-mails. Cole then responded, not to Pipes, but rather to Kramer's work on the field, it appears.


As for conflating intent to censor and criticism-- not doing so here.

Funny, though that the word, conflate, was used. As was the whole discussion of public figures.

Fascinating discourse. You all have fun. I'm done with this.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #98
143. Slander is (IMHO) a standard "debating" tactic, esp. in this forum.
Edited on Fri Oct-14-05 08:55 AM by bemildred
But it has always been so on the internet, and you will
find it many places in blogland and elsewhere at DU WRT
other subjects than I/P. It's purpose is often precisely
to drag you away from a topic into a labyrinth of
recrimination, while confusing your mind with emotions where
once reason held sway. It often works.

I find it best to ignore it and stick with my argument
or line of thought, or else to politely head yet further
into the swamp.

Occasionally, one can also point out that name-calling is
not an argument.

Prof. Cole is, for what it's worth, one of a small group
of thinkers whose opinions I respect even when we disagree,
and the notion that he is an anti-semite, by any reasonable
definition of that term, is ludicrous.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #97
99. Sent two checks out this morning
Edited on Wed Jul-06-05 12:42 PM by Coastie for Truth
Beyt Tikkun - Berkeley CA --------$80.00
AIPAC---------------------------$36.00

Yes. I know I am crazy - my mother keeps telling me that.

And before I am attacked, yesterday I sent out checks to the Santa Clara County Democratic Club (Local Progressive Club), Zoe Lofgren's Campaign fund, and Art Torres' "Whip Arnie's Butt" fund drive (that's what we call it), plus Nancy Pelosi's fund drive (DCCC) and Hillary's fund drive (DSCC). So, I am allowed my (facetiously) racist, bigoted idiosyncrasy.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #99
100. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 02:45 PM
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103. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 02:58 PM
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
31. COW PATTIE - IT'S ALL ABOUT OIL --- "C8H18"
AIPAC is not a pimple on APIPAC's left butt cheek. APIPAC is the power that runs Washington, Bush, Cheney, DeLay, etc. Who is APIPAC?

APIPAC is "AMERICAN PETROLEUM INSTITUTE POLITICAL ACTON COMMITTEE"

I say again--
APIPAC is "AMERICAN PETROLEUM INSTITUTE POLITICAL ACTON COMMITTEE"

And if you can't hear me, I'll yell a little louder--
APIPAC is "AMERICAN PETROLEUM INSTITUTE POLITICAL ACTON COMMITTEE"







You might also want to read House of Bush, House of Saud : The Secret Relationship Between the World's Two Most Powerful Dynasties by Craig Unger

If you have any doubts about the power of APIPAC - look at the gas meter next time you fill up -- and look at Junk Bond GM and Junk Bond Ford as they have followed APIPAC's lead in fighting against economical, efficient cars.


C8H18


AMERICAN PETROLEUM INSTITUTE POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE


I have only been in the energy industry (alternative, renewable, green) for 30+ years.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
33. I'm sorry to see this thread moved. IT'S ABOUT US POLITICS. n/t
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. There is a well organized effort to keep some topics off the top
of the board. Like the rightwingers that complain about TV shows too liberal for their taste, these people are quite good at hitting the alert button en masse. Fools! Don't they realize that their support for neocon policies in the Middle East will ultimately result in the destruction of Israel and in the withdrawal of the US from the world stage?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 06:24 PM
Response to Original message
34. Deleted message
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. AIPAC supported Bush!
That makes AIPAC an enemy of freedom!
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #38
41. I know a lot of AIPAC members who supported Kerry - N/T
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not systems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. I'm sure alot of NRA members supported Kerry...
they still helped put Bush back in just like the AIPAC members.

Tools.
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. Shades of the 1950's (or the '68 election - or the 2000 election)
Edited on Mon Jul-04-05 09:26 AM by Coastie for Truth
In response to a post
AIPAC Supported BushThat makes AIPAC an enemy of freedom!
I answered
I know a lot of AIPAC members who supported Kerry - N/T
to which another appender answered
I'm sure a lot of NRA members supported Kerrythey still helped put Bush back in just like the AIPAC members.
which is a non-sequitor.

Is this some kind of a Senator Joseph R. McCarthy - Director J. Edgar Hoover political test "You have to agree with 'ME, MYSELF, AND I' as to what 'ME, MYSELF, AND I decree is a core Democratic Belief in order to be a Democrat?"

Is this the game of sitting on ones hands in 1968 Nixon-Humphrey election because Humphrey wasn't anti-war enough early enough (and giving us Nixon and a longer war and Watergate).

Is this the game of "It won't make no difference - Tweedledum and Tweedledee" in the Bush-Gore election of 2000 -- didn't make no difference - Iraq war and the dismembering of the New Deal -- "Didn't make no difference - Tweedledum and Tweedledee"

Who elected some appenders here Chairman of the DNC? Who elected them Prefects of some Congregation for the Doctrine of Democratic Faith, and who elected them Inquisitors-General of the Democratic Party. By what Divine Right do they exercise the power of defining who is a Progressive (in their own Image)?

This ignoring of anything that happened before the Internet or before 1948 or in the ancient, pre-history before the Balfour Declaration is mind boggling.

Do they realize - there was a Sykes-Picot Agreement before the Balfour Declaration (or a White Paper after the Balfour Declaration)? Have they ever taken the time to review the ancient, pre-history of Sykes-Picot and the collapse of the Ottoman Empire? Have they read Engdahl's "A Century Of War : Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order"?

Do they realize - Bush's PNAC war is about OIL. My gosh - they don't even have to open a book or do a google search -- just amble on over to or to the or to the - or just pick up a few of the books frequently discussed on those fora - James Howard Kunstler's book The Long Emergency: Surviving the End of the Oil Age, Climate Change, and Other Converging Catastrophes of the Twenty-first Centuryor DVD The End of Suburbia, or Jared Diamond's Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed and Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies, or Beyond Oil : The View From Hubbert's Peak and Hubbert's Peak : The Impending World Oil Shortage by Kenneth S. Deffeyes, or Amory Lovins' Winning the Oil Endgame or (with Paul Hawken) Natural Capitalism: Creating the Next Industrial Revolution or Paul Hawken's The Ecology of Commerce: A Declaration of Sustainability?

Too difficult - much easier to create a bogeyman like Sharon or AIPAC (while ignoring APIPAC - the real beneficiary of the Bush/PNAC war of "American Blood for Oil")

Well, blaming these "bogeymen" is a diversionary side show, a Bush "Weapon of Mass Distraction" for the short term mega-profits of his Big Business backers.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #41
44. Here is Wolfowitz speech to AIPAC
Due to its length, which includes an FAQ section, I am only posting the first handful of paragraphs. In this speech, Wolfowitz congratulates AIPAC for its support of Bush's policies in Iraq and elsewhere.

National Summit of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC)
Remarks as delivered by Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, Washington, DC, Monday, October 27, 2003.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


(Mr. Wolfowitz spoke via satellite link to the AIPAC National Summit meeting in Phoenix, Arizona.)


Thank you, Tim (Wuliger, AIPAC Chairman) … President (Amy) Friedkin … Howard Kohr (Executive Director)…. As always, it’s a real pleasure to join you and AIPAC’s leadership – even if it’s only a virtual meeting.

As you may know, I am just back from Iraq. I arrived from Baghdad a few hours ago. In fact, that trip was the reason I could not be in Phoenix today.

And of course I have some thoughts to share with you about that trip. But first, let me emphasize AIPAC’s role in working on some of the most critical issues facing us today. When you engage on an issue, people take notice.

So I would like to thank you for your support for the President’s emergency supplemental funding request to support U.S. troops and complete our mission – which is to help the Iraqi people free themselves from the criminals who terrorized them and to protect the American people from this same kind of terrorism. As you know, both the House and the Senate are in the final stages of approving the Administration’s proposal for $87 billion.

That money will buy a lot of things, including urgently needed supplies, weapons, ammunition, fuel, maintenance, life-saving body armor, and a variety of other critical military items needed by U.S. forces. It also will provide military pay for our soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines, and Coast Guardsmen, who are serving so bravely and so well in the war on terror. Taken together, these items will account for $66 billion -- or three-quarters of the supplemental funding request.

The remainder -- $21 billion – will go to help the people of Iraq and Afghanistan deal with the dilapidated infrastructure created by Saddam Hussein and the Baathists in one case and the Taliban in the other. Our contribution to this effort will be supplemented by billions of dollars contributed by other nations. But even at that, it will not cover all of the damage that those brutal totalitarian regimes have done in decades of abusing their people and wasting their resources.

This supplemental request is essential for us to finish winning the war in Iraq and to secure the peace – so that the Iraqi people can build a new, free Iraq – an Iraq that will no longer export terrorism and instability to the Middle East and the world. A successful, free Iraq can instead be an inspiration for hope and moderation throughout the region.

(more...)

http://www.pentagon.mil/speeches/2003/sp20031027-depsecdef0622.html
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. What does that speech prove - your point
I was a "staffie" of Clinton's Assistant Secretary of Energy Ivan Itkin - you always thank you audience for their support - even if you know that they didn't support you.

How do you explain - even Frank Lutz admits that Bush got less then a quarter of the Jewish vote in 2004, and most pollsters and statisticians put Bush at 18%-24%. Lowest percentage of any white ethnic group. I don't cite to "Zionist" sources -- I post to unbiased British sources --- http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/story/0,13918,1310809,00.html

Bush fails to raise Jewish support

Polls show president's support for Israel will not win votes from the traditionally Democratic mainstream who recoil from his religious zeal

text:
George Bush has failed to win over any of the traditional Jewish backing for the Democrats, despite the unwavering White House support for Israel and a vigorous campaign by the Republican party.

In a poll released yesterday by the American Jewish Committee, Jewish voters preferred John Kerry to Mr Bush by a margin of nearly three to one: 69% to 24%.

It is an improvement on Mr Bush's 19% Jewish support in 2000 but well short of the Republicans' hope of 30%

<snip><

Mr Bush appeals to a section of the Orthodox community because of his support for the Israeli prime minister, Ariel Sharon, and his open religiosity, but most Jews are not changing sides.

David Harris, director of the American Jewish Committee, said: "Most American Jews tend towards the liberal side of the political equation, and therefore instinctively lean towards the Democratic candidate, and this year may be no exception, despite a president with a strong track record on US-Israeli relations, and who is waging a war on radical Islamic terrorism."

This is the second poll to confound Republican hopes: in a survey by the Democratic pollsters Greenberg, Quinlan, Rosner for the National Jewish Democratic Council, Mr Kerry had 75% support and Mr Bush 22%.

- Not Ha'aretz, or Jerusalem Post, or New York Times, or Washington Post - but the Guardian


Further, the Guardian notes that Anna Greenberg said the findings showed that Jews were moved far more by domestic concerns than US policy towards Israel, and that Jewish voters did not necessarily agree with Mr Bush's wholehearted support of Israel. Not exactly the gist and gravamen of this thread.

"What is clear from this survey is that Jewish voters don't necessarily believe that Bush is better on Israel than Kerry," Greenberg added.

The AJC poll showed an uneasiness with the administration's leadership of the "war on terror", and in Iraq, areas in which it expected to pick up Jewish support.

Let's look at the poll in detail ---

    ---Fifty-two per cent of respondents disapproved of Mr Bush's stewardship of his "war on terror" and 66% were unhappy with it:
    ---levels of discontent far higher than in the general population
    ---57% thought the threat of a terror attack on America had increased because of the war with Iraq.


Not exactly what one would expect from the thoughts in this thread.

The Guardian also reports that there was also dissatisfaction with Mr Bush's unilateralist approach to world affairs: another area of strong contrast with Mr Kerry, who has said consistently in campaign speeches that America needs to work with the UN and other institutions.

Contrary to what one would divine from this thread, the Guardian reports that sixty-four per cent said America should not act alone on the international stage.

Remember, the Guardian reports that Wolfie and Feith and Perle and the PNACs had made a concerted effort to break through this year, as part of a long-term strategy to woo minority voters away from the Democrats. In particular they hoped to win Orthodox voters - devoting special sessions at the party convention to religious Jewish delegates - and Jews from the former Soviet Union.

But although Jews may appreciate Mr Bush's support for Israel, they balk at the open religiosity of his administration, and his party's moral crusading on issues such as gay marriage, stem cell research, and abortion. Remember - even Orthodox Jews - support stem cell research (see, e.g., and abortion. Remember - the FDR "New Deal" Safety Net - including Social Security - is a Levitican Mitzvah.

The Guardian reports GOP Pollster Frank Lutz as saying
"The conservative social agenda gives Jewish voters serious pause, ... They have to decide what is more important to them: their support of his position on Israel or their opposition to his social agenda."
I think they decided.

Your point.

Rabbi Michael Lerner, Father Charles Owens Rice, Rev. Cecil Williams, and Rev. Forrest Church speak a hell of a lot more for me then Perle, Wolfie, and Feith.

And no appender whop claims to be a member of the DNC or a Prefect of some Congregation for the Doctrine of Democratic Faith, or an Inquisitor-General of the Democratic Party is going to exercise some privilege under some stretched doctrine of Divine Right to define me into or out of Progressivism (in his or her own Image).
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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #44
79. Clearly this speech touched a nerve
That, in and of itself, is quite telling.

AIPAC is as much a scourge on democracay as the NRA. Both lobbying groups have done more damage based upon selfish reasons--and not the reasons that folks would think-- (i.e. the State of Israel or the Right to bear arms)

The selfish reasons are simple-- they have used the power they wield to do whatever they wish to simply because they can. Their leaders are drunk with power. For that reason along, both lobbying groups should be removed.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #38
49. Deleted message
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
35. The Complete Unexpurgated AIPAC Tape of Steiner Katz talks
For the lovers of factoids, here's the complete nnexpurgated AIPAC tape of the Steiner Katz talks that forced Steiner to resign when they came out (mentioned in the first paragraph of your post)...

The Complete Unexpurgated AIPAC Tape

(Following is a transcript of the Oct. 22, 1992 conversation with President David Steiner of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) recorded without his knowledge by New York businessman Haim (Harry) Katz. Its existence was first revealed to the Washington Times and its release triggered Steiner's resignation.

David Steiner: Haim.

Harry Katz: Hello, how are you?

DS: Where are you located?

HK: I'm located in Queens, New York.

DS: Queens.. .Far Rockaway?

HK: Belle Harbor.

DS: Belle Harbor. I'm trying to get this list together. Would you ever get into the city?

HK: Sure, I do. Sure, you come frequently?

DS: Well I come in from time to time. I have an office there, at AIPAC in the city. You know, I want you to understand . . . where did you get my name and phone number?

HK: Oh, I, um, I called AIPAC. . .

DS: Yeah.

HK: And ahh. . .I know you're the president of AIPAC...

DS: You should understand that, the political information that I gave you, those are personal choices . . .

HK: Sure, I understand.

DS: AIPAC does not rate or endorse candidates, does not solicit money. . .

HK: Yeah, look.

DS: I want you to understand that the choices I would give you are personal choices.

HK: I understand.

DS: I wonder if before . . . I want to get together with you next week.

HK: Next week would be fine.

DS: But in the meantime, I wonder if I can have one of my people get together with you and talk to you about it . . . They'll want to meet you and know who you are and all this. I have a.. . maybe if I can have Seth Buchwald call you, my New York director.

HK: That would be terrific.

DS: And we have a guy out there, Joel Schnur. And, are you orthodox?

HK: Ah, yes.

DS: Okay, Joel is orthodox too. I am not.

HK: You're reform or?

DS: I'm reform.

HK: Okay, let me just say. . .

DS: I was raised orthodox but I'm reform.

HK: Okay, let me just tell you that, I'll just hold you a minute. I'll be happy to meet with them, I know, I've heard the names, I'd be happy to meet with them, as a matter of fact I could, when I'm in Manhattan...Are you ever in Manhattan?

DS: Sure, today I'm going to be there, but I can't. I'm meeting with the ambassador.

HK: Okay, I'll just ask you very very quickly. You know, like, in New York, you know, this is your own personal opinion, like in New York we have Abrams against D'Amato.

DS: Well, let me tell you what my personal position is. Okay?

HK: Yeah.

DS: From a Jewish point of view, I believe in political loyalty.

HK: Right.

DS: And if someone has been good for Israel, no matter who, if my brother would run against them, I would support them because they'd been good to Israel because that's an important message to people.

HK: Right.

DS: What I'm going to be doing for you. . .

HK: Now D'Amato, has he been good for Israel?

DS: You couldn't have a better . . . listen I think Abrams would be good too, but that's not the message.

HK: Yeah.

DS: Ah...

HK: So the message, so the message is that ah...I agree with you all the way, that if somebody's been good for Israel, I'll take D'Amato. But you have no complaints with D'Amato?

DS: I have no complaints with D'Amato.

HK: Uh huh, so and ah, you know, let me tell you, Abrams might be, might be too liberal. I don't know if Abrams supported, let's say the ah, the war against Iraq.

DS: Yeah, I don't know, and ah, I don't know. But all I know is if I have a guy who is there and he's doing it, then I don't want to change, you know?

HK: Right. Let me ask you this very quickly and then I will. . .

DS: I'm going to have Seth call you because in the meantime I'm going to be preparing this list, what I'm doing is, I've asked my friends in the various campaigns, I've made about 30 calls, what I'm trying to put together who needs it the most, you know? Because you could dissipate a million dollars, but the point is to put it where it's going to do the most, I know Bob Kasten, who's been an outstanding friend and needs it I know. . .

HK: Excuse my ignorance. Bob Kasten is what state?

DS: From Wisconsin. . .

HK: Okay, is he Jewish?

DS: . . .He's for loan guarantees, he happens to be a Republican.

HK: Okay, and but, he's good? He's. . .

DS: You couldn't have better.

HK: Is Kasten, Kasten's been very, very good and he's in trouble?

DS: He's in big trouble. Les Aspin, who's the Chairman of the Military Appropriations, a Democrat also from Wisconsin is really (unintelligible).

HK: You mean, Les Aspin is in trouble?

DS: In big trouble.

HK: I can't believe it. I mean, I don't, I don't follow . . .

DS: Well see, what happened was, you know ah, when you get to know me, I'll put you on my list and I'll be sending all these things. A wealthy businessman decided to run, using all his own money. Aspin, 'cause they sit on the finance committee for Aspin. . .

HK: Right.

DS: . ..programmed the last two weeks of, well the last month of the campaign, for TV. This guy came in two months early and we didn't have the money budgeted, so we're out scratching around to raise money for him. So we, heck, I told him, I said that I'd go, I'll sign on the bank on a loan for you, you know, that's how important it is.

HK: Unbelievable. You know I read, I won't hold you long, but I'd just tell you this. . .

DS: That's okay.

HK: . . .I'll just tell you this, I read the New York Post, and I don't even read the papers too much, I don't follow politics . . . are you ready for this?

DS: Yeah.

HK: Get ready for this. I read in the papers this morning, I think it was the (NY) Post, Barbara Boxer, in California. . .

DS: Yeah.

HK: . ..do you know who she is?

DS: I know who...

HK: She's originally from, ah. . . New York I think. . .

DS: A friend of yours?

HK: No, no, no. She's not a friend of mine, but she, ah, I think she's in trouble.

DS: Yean, that's ah, in that race we're okay either way, 'cause Bruce Herschensohn, who she's running against, is Jewish, and he's very strong on our issues.

HK: Okay, but Herschensohn.. .

DS: Herschensohn's a very conservative Republican.

HK: You know, he's come out of nowhere. He was like 30 points behind.. .

DS: Right.

HK: He's come out of nowhere with it.

DS: Because the truth of the matter is, she didn't always vote for foreign aid. We had a big meeting, I had a program in L.A. I had all four senatorial candidates there, and he ripped her apart. She has always voted against foreign and.

HK: What about the one, in ah, the one in. . . um, what's his name? I read it in the paper, it's just a shocker, politics is a crazy game. The black woman in Chicago. . .

DS: Carol Moseley Braun?

HK: She was going to win by 50 points. . .

DS: Oh it's down, she took the money, it's a big problem.

HK: It's a big problem with her. . .

DS: And we have a problem with another good friend. You know Daniel Inouye, from Hawaii he's one of our best friends. It was Kasten-Inouye on the loan guarantees, Kasten-Inouye and Leahy.. .

HK: I heard, I saw it on, I know Inouye's in trouble because of, he sexually harassed his hairdresser. . .

DS: We commissioned a poll and got some people, and I've got to raise $27,000 to pay for the poll . . . so I have, so what I'm trying to do is make a priority list, because I don't know how far you want to go. . . how old are your kids by the way? . . . You had three children that could write checks, do they have their own checking accounts?

HK: Yes.

DS: Oh, so that's not going to be. . .

HK: How old do they have to be?

DS: They can't be one year old.

HK: I mean, could they be 18, 17?

DS: Sure, no problem, so they could make, nobody's going to bother you, but if you had infants, a four-year-old, let's say, it's not a contest.

HK: Let me tell you, I was planning, I was planning to, to . . . Inouye, by the way, is in real trouble? He's been there forever. . .

DS: Yeah! Well, we might lose him. There's been such a sea change, such trouble this year, I can't believe all our friends that are in trouble. Because there's an anti-incumbency mood, and foreign aid has not been popular. You know what I got for, I met with (U.S. Secretary of State) Jim Baker and I cut a deal with him. I got, besides the $3 billion, you know they're looking for the Jewish votes, and I'll tell him whatever he wants to hear. . .

HK: Right.

DS: Besides the $10 billion in loan guarantees which was a fabulous thing, $3 billion in foreign, in military aid, and I got almost a billion dollars in other goodies that people don't even know about.

HK: Such as?

DS: $700 million in military draw-down, from equipment that the United States Army's going to give to Israel; $200 million the U.S. government is going to preposition materials in Israel, which Israel can draw upon; put them in the global warning protection system; so when if there's a missile fired, they'll get the same advanced notification that the U.S., is notified, joint military exercises—I've got a whole shopping list of things.

HK: So this is from Baker?

DS: From Baker and from the Pentagon.

HK: So, not so, not.. .

DS: Why did he do it, you know, why did he do it? Last year I was a bum. This year I said look Jim, we're going to fight on the F-l5s. Israel doesn't want to fight, I said, but some people on it are going to come up on the floor of the Senate and the House and they're going to fight. If you'll do this, I think I can hold them back. But you've got to do it right away. They didn't want to fight. I said, "You don't want a fight before the election. It's going to hurt Bush. We don't want a fight before the election. We don't want to fight at all. Why can't we work something out?" So we cut a deal. You can't repeat this.

HK: You're right. But you met with Baker. . .

DS: Personally.

HK: Personally. Because you know, he's the one who cursed, who cursed the Jews.

DS: Of course, do you think I'm ever going to forgive him for that?

HK: Unbelievable. I said...

DS: Do you think I could ever forgive Bush for what he did September 12th a year ago? What he said about the Jews for lobbying in Washington?

HK: Do you think that Baker has a legitimate concern for the Jews? From what I hear, do you think he's anti-Semitic?

DS: I wouldn't go so far as to say that. He's a pragmatic businessman, he's a very tough lawyer. He does whatever it takes.

HK: And that's why.. .

DS: If we didn't have an election this year, you would get (unintelligible) from him.

HK: Let me ask you a quick question. Just a quick question here. You know Perot, you know, I'm telling you this is scary. I don't know what you think of Perot, but if Perot hadn't backed out, I watched the debates. I thought Perot did marvelous in the debates.

DS: He doesn't know how to govern. He's not going to make it. And there was an incident where his daughter was going out with a Jewish professor at school and he said, "I wouldn't have my daughter marry a Jew."

HK: So Perot, they say that if Perot hadn't backed out in July, and if he would have gotten himself a good running mate, you know . . .

DS: He wouldn't win, but it would go to the House of Representatives. The Democrats would win in the House of Representatives.

HK: So if it goes to the House, the Democrats would win for sure.

DS: For sure.

HK: Okay let me ask you, last question and then I'll be happy to meet with your New York people. . .

DS: You know, you sound like my kind of guy. How old are you?

HK: Forty-two.

DS: You're a kid.

HK: I'm not a kid, I'm 42. . .

DS: I'm 63, you're a kid.

HK: I wish I was...

DS: We'll have to get you involved. I like you, we have a lot to talk about, about real estate, you know, I have so many great activities going on at AIPAC, you ought to think about coming to some of these things. I'll have a dinner this fall. I'll have 18-20 senators there. I run programs in Washington. We just had a, I had at Ted Kennedy's house last month kosher dinner. I brought foremost caterers down. I had 60 people on the couch for dinner. Last year, I did it in Al Gore's house.

HK: Right.

DS: Those are the things you should be getting involved in and knowing what's going on. . .

HK: Let me just ask you about Clinton. I want to tell you, you may not believe this, but I think that if Perot. . .

DS: Yeah, he would've given us a hard time. What's the name of your company, what do you do business as?

HK: We do business as HK, Inc.

DS: HK, Inc.?

HK: Right.

DS: Do you have a street address?

HK: Sure. 621 Beach 129th Street, Belle Harbor, Queens, New York, 11694.

DS: Yeah, because on my computer you only show a post office box. This is your house? You work out of your house?

HK: Yeah, out of an office in the house. . . Look, Mr. Steiner...

DS: David. My father's Mr. Steiner.

HK: David, let me just ask you about Clinton. Honestly, what do you feel about Clinton?

DS: Well, I've known Bill Clinton for seven eight years. I think he's got to be a lot better than George Bush. . . we have a lot of people in there. But he doesn't need money, he really doesn't need money. I'm a trustee of the Democratic National Committee. We collected $63 million for him so far.

HK: Who's collected $63 million?

DS: The Democratic National Committee and the Clinton campaign have raised $63 million.

HK: So they've already raised $63 million, so they don't need money.

DS: No, we need money, like we got a guy, Byron Dorgan, in North Dakota, who's going to be very good for us and we need money to make sure that he gets in. We've got people like that, because (unintelligible), whatever you give them would be a tickle on the elephant's behind. But when you give $5,000 or $10,000 to Bob Kasten, that's very meaningful.

HK: Let me ask you, I understand what you're saying. Clinton, when Clinton first started running a year ago, did he need money at that time?

DS: Yes he did.

HK: I mean, did you help him out, 'cause that's the time. . .

DS: I personally am not allowed, as president of AIPAC, to get involved in the presidential campaign, because I have to deal with whoever wins. You know, I've got to go see Bush if he's there, but I helped him, we raised over a million dollars for him in New Jersey.

HK: For Clinton?

DS: For Clinton.

HK: And this was when, in the beginning?

DS: In the beginning, yes. After he won, before the convention.

HK: This is before the convention?

DS: Oh sure.

HK: Okay, let me ask you, you know, T

DS: We've also raised for other guys who are running too, because they're friends. Harkin, the senator, you know you have to be with everybody.

HK: Let me ask you, (talks about getting cheated in business by Gentiles). Let me ask you, Clinton, if he becomes, I mean what will he do for Israel, better than Bush, if he becomes, I know Bush gave you a hard time, this and that. ..

DS: I'II tell you, I have friends on the Clinton campaign, close associates. Gore is very committed to us.

HK: Right. Clinton if he, have you spoken to him?

DS: I've known Bill for seven, eight years from the National Governors Association. I know him on a personal basis. I have friends. One of my friends is Hillary Clinton's scheduler, one of my officer's daughters works there. We gave two employees from AIPAC leave of absences to work on the campaign. I mean, we have a dozen people in that campaign, in the headquarters.

HK: You mean in Little Rock?

DS: In Little Rock, and they're all going to get big jobs. We have friends. I also work with a think tank, the Washington Institute. I have Michael Mandelbaum and Martin Indyk being foreign policy advisers. Steve Speigel—we've got friends—this is my business.

HK: I understand, David.

DS: It's very complicated and the more you get into it, you'll love it. You sound like a smart guy.

HK: I'm a smart guy, but I have a, maybe because I'm more orthodox than you are, I've had bad experiences with Gentiles. Let me ask you, you know what "tachlis" means?

DS: Yeah, sure.

HK: From a practical point of view, if Clinton wins the presidency, and I'm sure he will, I hope so at least, what will be the benefits to Israel better than Bush? From a very practical point . . . I mean, you just told me that Bush gave you everything you wanted. . .

DS: Only, not everything, at the end, when we didn't want the F-l5s, that's a terrible thing.

HK: Selling the F-l5s? If Clinton is elected. . .

DS: Let me tell you the problem with the $10 billion in loan guarantees, right? We only have the first year. We have authorization from Congress, but it's at the discretion of the president every year thereafter, so if Bush is there, he could say, you know, use it as a club, you know. 'If you don't give up Syria, I won't give you the money. If you don't give up the Golan Heights.' It's at the discretion of the president. And that's why we need a friendly president and we have Bill Clinton's ear. I talked to Bill Clinton.

HK: And Bill Clinton has made a commitment that if he's elected . . . ?

DS: He's going to be very good for us.

HK: And he'll go ahead with the loan guarantees?

DS: We didn't talk about that specifically, listen, I didn't ask him that, but I have full confidence that we're going to have a much better situation. He's got Jewish friends. A girl who worked for me at AIPAC stood up for them at their wedding. Hillary lived with her. I mean we have those relationships. We have never had that with Bush. Susan Thomases, who's in there, worked with me on the Bradley campaign. We worked together for 13 years. She's In there with the family. They stay with her when they come to New York. One of my officers, Monte Friedkin, is one of the biggest fund-raisers for them. I mean, I have people like that all over the country.

HK: So, I mean from a practical point of view. . .

DS: He's going to be with us.

HK: I don't say, this business, you say, Bush only went ahead with the loan guarantees for one year.

DS: We only have. It's mandatory they give us the $2 billion for one year. After that it's subject to the discretion of the president.

HK: You mean the other $8 billion?

DS: That's correct. On an annualized basis.

HK: Also, I heard that. . .

DS: They don't have to give it to us.

HK: But if Clinton is elected. . .

DS:... feel reasonably certain we're gonna get It.

HK: He's made that commitment?

DS: Well, he said he's going to help us. He's got something in his heart for the Jews, he has Jewish friends. Bush has no Jewish friends.

HK: Right.

DS: Reagan had something . . . meshuga, but at least he had a commitment. He knew Jews from the film industry, he was one of the best guys for us. He had an emotional thing for the Jews. Bush doesn't have it. That's what it is really, if you have a feeling for our people, for what we believe in. Bush is, there's a man with no principles. Absolutely no principles.

HK: I heard something about, but I never really understood it, with the scoring. One of my friends told me there's a difference in the scoring, but I don't understand. . .

DS: Scoring is like points that you pay.

HK: So let's say, if Bush is elected on the loans . . .

DS: No, we've got the scoring arranged, it's four and a half percent. It's all done.

HK: That's all done, even with Bush?

DS: Even with Bush. I've got that worked out.

HK: So that's all done.

DS: It's in the bill. It's all passed. He signed the bill. It's a matter of law.

HK: So it's already four and a half percent?

DS: We could've had it less, but then we couldn't. . .

HK: And Clinton, if he was president, he would give...?

DS: He could not change it, you cannot change it.

HK: No, but I'm saying, if he was president now, before the bill was signed, he would've given you the four and a half percent. . .

DS: I would've gotten less.

HK: I'm sorry?

DS: I would've gotten it cheaper.

HK: How much? Even two percent?

DS: Yeah, we thought we were going to get two percent. But Rabin gave it away.

HK: You mean Rabin didn't bargain as good as he could have?

DS: That's right.

HK: Unbelievable. So, if Clinton is elected, that will be the best. ..

DS: I think that will be the best we could do.

HK: You know, I just want to tell you one last thing. Do you have parents that come from Europe?

DS: Yeah, of course, from Glolitzano, near Krakow. ,

HK: You're kidding, your parents are from Krakow?

DS: Near Krakow.

HK: Guess what?

DS: You too?

HK: My parents are from Krakow.

DS: Well, we're not from Krakow, but from near Krakow. My mother's from Rudnick, my father from Gruns, near Tano. Do you know where Tano is?

HK: Yes. Let me tell you. . .

DS .. don't have many left. Everybody got

HK: Let me tell you. The same with me. Let me tell you, my parents were the only ones who came out. Let me tell you, my. . .

DS: You're a Holocaust survivor?

HK: Yeah, no, not me, my parents.

DS: That's some experience, I've got two cousins, I've got one in Israel and one in France that came out of Mauthausen, I'll tell you, and everybody else dead on my father's side, in Russia. I just brought six of them from Koshkent to Israel last year.

HK: Right. Let me tell you that, you know what my father always says? My father was a rich man in Poland, and he says, he says, "Economic power is very good. You have to have money, but if you just have economic power and you don't have political power. . ."

DS: "You've got nothing."

HK: You've got nothing.

DS: If we had AIPAC in the '30s and '40s, we would have saved millions of Jews. We would have the political power. But Jews were afraid to open their mouths. They didn't know how.

HK: AIPAC started after WWII?

DS: Oh, sure.

HK: And if you would have had AIPAC in the

DS: I feel we would've saved a lot of Jews.

HK: And Franklin Roosevelt, he could've done a lot better?

DS: Sure, he could. The Jews never opened their mouths. They were afraid. We're not afraid. They can curse me out, I don't care if they hate me, just as long as I get what we need for our people.

HK: So if you had a little lamp, a wishing lamp and you could wish for either Bush, Clinton or Perot. . .

DS: Clinton.

HK: Clinton all the way? And in terms of Israel having political power, between the three candidates, the one who will give us the most political power?

DS: Clinton is the best guy for us.

HK: He's the best one.

DS: I hope you're serious about what you told me.

HK: I am, I'll tell you this (tells a long anecdote about David Souter promising to oppose abortion as a nominee and then reversing himself on the Supreme Court). So I wish we had a Jewish candidate for president.

DS: I don't think the country's ready.

HK: If the country was ready, is there any Jewish candidate...?

DS:I wouldn't venture to say anything.

HK: You know who? I don't know him, I've never met him, Joe Lieberman.

DS: Oh, I'm very friendly with Joe. I'm having dinner with him Monday night.

HK: Let me tell you, I think Joe Lieberman would have, uh, would have, if he wasn't Jewish, that's the only problem he has. He's highly respected.

DS: I'd like to see him on the Supreme Court.

HK: If Clinton is elected, has he told you who he's going to put on the Supreme Court?

DS: We're talking now. We don't have no commitments yet. We're just negotiating. We're more interested right now, in the secretary of state and the secretary of National Security Agency. That's more important to us.

HK: If Clinton is elected, who do you think will be secretary of state?

DS: We don't know yet, we're negotiating.

HK: Who are you hoping for?

DS: I've got a list. But I really can't go through it. I'm not allowed to talk about it.

HK: But you figure, God willing, if Clinton's elected . . .

DS: We'll have access.

HK: You'll have access and you'll have a good input into who's secretary of state.

DS: I do believe so.

HK: And the other position is. . .

DS: National Security Adviser.

HK: Those are the two critical positions.

DS: Right.

HK: Gotcha. Well, David, thanks for talking with me.

W: And we're going to get together next week. I hope you'll have your checkbook ready.

HK: Will do.

DS: Okay, thanks.

HK: And let me ask you about the real estate. . . (more talk about irrelevant issues).

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/1292/9212013.html


Material from the printed version of the Washington Report, and from this Web site, may be reprinted without charge as long as articles are not changed in any way and are credited to the author and the magazine. http://www.washington-report.org/aboutwrmea/index.htm
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-03-05 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
36. Here's some historical info for your post / re OSP & Likudniks
As usual, well done!



The spies who pushed for war

Julian Borger reports on the shadow rightwing intelligence network set up in Washington to second-guess the CIA and deliver a justification for toppling Saddam Hussein by force

Thursday July 17, 2003
The Guardian

As the CIA director, George Tenet, arrived at the Senate yesterday to give secret testimony on the Niger uranium affair, it was becoming increasingly clear in Washington that the scandal was only a small, well-documented symptom of a complete breakdown in US intelligence that helped steer America into war.

(snip)
The OSP was an open and largely unfiltered conduit to the White House not only for the Iraqi opposition. It also forged close ties to a parallel, ad hoc intelligence operation inside Ariel Sharon's office in Israel specifically to bypass Mossad and provide the Bush administration with more alarmist reports on Saddam's Iraq than Mossad was prepared to authorise.
"None of the Israelis who came were cleared into the Pentagon through normal channels," said one source familiar with the visits. Instead, they were waved in on Mr Feith's authority without having to fill in the usual forms.
The exchange of information continued a long-standing relationship Mr Feith and other Washington neo-conservatives had with Israel's Likud party.
In 1996, he and Richard Perle - now an influential Pentagon figure - served as advisers to the then Likud leader, Binyamin Netanyahu. In a policy paper they wrote, entitled A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm, the two advisers said that Saddam would have to be destroyed, and Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and Iran would have to be overthrown or destabilised, for Israel to be truly safe.
The Israeli influence was revealed most clearly by a story floated by unnamed senior US officials in the American press, suggesting the reason that no banned weapons had been found in Iraq was that they had been smuggled into Syria. Intelligence sources say that the story came from the office of the Israeli prime minister.
(snip)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,999737,00.html


No weapons in Iraq? We'll find them in Iran

By Neil Mackay Sunday Herald


Sunday 01 June 2003

Ironically, it was the ultra-hawkish US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld who let the cat out of the bag when he said on Wednesday: 'It is possible Iraqi leaders decided they would destroy (WMDs) prior to the conflict.' If that was true then Saddam had fulfilled the criteria of UN resolution 1441 and there was absolutely no legal right for the US and UK to go to war. Rumsfeld's claim that Iraq might have destroyed its weapons makes a mockery of the way the US treated the UN's chief weapons inspector Dr Hans Blix. The US effectively told him he wasn't up to the job and the Iraqis had fooled him.

<snip>

With September 11 as his ideological backdrop, Rumsfeld decided in autumn 2001 to establish a new intelligence agency, independent of the CIA and the Pentagon, called the Office of Special Plans (OSP). He put his deputy, Wolfowitz, in charge. The pair were dissatisfied with the failure of the CIA among others to provide firm proof of both Saddam's alleged WMD arsenal and links to al-Qaeda.

<snip>

That was the policy blueprint, but to deliver it Rumsfeld turned to the Office of Special Plans. Put simply, the OSP was told to come up with the evidence of WMD to give credence to US military intervention. But what do conventional intelligence experts make of the OSP? Colonel Patrick Lang is a former chief of human intelligence for the Pentagon's Defence Intelligence Agency (DIA) in the 1990s. He was also the DIA's chief of Middle East intelligence and was regularly in Iraq. He said of the OSP : 'This office had a great deal of influence in a number of places in Washington in a way that seemed to me to be excessive and rather ill-advised. 'The regular organisations of the intelligence community have very rigorous rules for how you evaluate information and resources, and tend to take a conservative view of analytic positions because they're going to dictate government decisions. 'That wasn't satisfactory in Secretary Rumsfeld's Pentagon so he set up a separate office to review this data, and the people in this office, although they're described as intelligence people, are by and large congressional staffers. They seemed to me not to have deceived intentionally but to have seen in the data what they believe is true. I think it's a very risky thing to do.'

<snip>

In a further curious twist, an intelligence source claimed the real 'over-arching strategic reason' for the war was the road map to peace, designed to settle the running sore of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The source said: 'I believe that Britain and America see the road map as fundamental. They were being told by Ariel Sharon's government that Israel would not play ball until Saddam was out of the picture. That was the condition. So he had to go.'

<snip>


http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0601-02.htm




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White man's burden - EXCELLENT Ha'aretz article to bookmark


This excellent analysis is an absolute keeper!
Peace

<snip>

In the course of the past year, a new belief has emerged in the town: the belief in war against Iraq. That ardent faith was disseminated by a small group of 25 or 30 neoconservatives, almost all of them Jewish, almost all of them intellectuals (a partial list: Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, William Kristol, Eliot Abrams, Charles Krauthammer), people who are mutual friends and cultivate one another and are convinced that political ideas are a major driving force of history. They believe that the right political idea entails a fusion of morality and force, human rights and grit. The philosophical underpinnings of the Washington neoconservatives are the writings of Machiavelli, Hobbes and Edmund Burke. They also admire Winston Churchill and the policy pursued by Ronald Reagan. They tend to read reality in terms of the failure of the 1930s (Munich) versus the success of the 1980s (the fall of the Berlin Wall).

Are they wrong? Have they committed an act of folly in leading Washington to Baghdad? They don't think so. They continue to cling to their belief. They are still pretending that everything is more or less fine. That things will work out. Occasionally, though, they seem to break out in a cold sweat. This is no longer an academic exercise, one of them says, we are responsible for what is happening. The ideas we put forward are now affecting the lives of millions of people. So there are moments when you're scared. You say, Hell, we came to help, but maybe we made a mistake.

<snip>
((William Kristol))

Kristol is pleasant-looking, of average height, in his late forties. In the past 18 months he has used his position as editor of the right-wing Weekly Standard and his status as one of the leaders of the neoconservative circle in Washington to induce the White House to do battle against Saddam Hussein. Because Kristol is believed to exercise considerable influence on the president, Vice President Richard Cheney and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, he is also perceived as having been instrumental in getting Washington to launch this all-out campaign against Baghdad. Sitting behind the stacks of books that cover his desk at the offices of the Weekly Standard in Northwest Washington, he tries to convince me that he is not worried. It is simply inconceivable to him that America will not win. In that event, the consequences would be catastrophic. No one wants to think seriously about that possibility.

<snip>

((Charles Krauthammer))
And what if the experiment fails? What if America is defeated?

This war will enhance the place of America in the world for the coming generation, Krauthammer says. Its outcome will shape the world for the next 25 years. There are three possibilities. If the United States wins quickly and without a bloodbath, it will be a colossus that will dictate the world order. If the victory is slow and contaminated, it will be impossible to go on to other Arab states after Iraq. It will stop there. But if America is beaten, the consequences will be catastrophic. Its deterrent capability will be weakened, its friends will abandon it and it will become insular. Extreme instability will be engendered in the Middle East.

You don't really want to think about what will happen, Krauthammer says looking me straight in the eye. But just because that's so, I am positive we will not lose. Because the administration understands the implications. The president understands that everything is riding on this. So he will throw everything we've got into this. He will do everything that has to be done. George W. Bush will not let America lose.


<snip>



http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=280279&sw=n


---

The CIA declined to say how the agency eventually obtained the documents. Officials at several other U.S. agencies, including the State Department, declined to say whether another U.S. government agency possessed or viewed them before Bush's speech last January.



http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030716/ap_on_go_ca
---

Published on Wednesday, May 7, 2003 in the Times/UK
America's Weapons Evidence Flawed, Say Spies
by Tim Reid in Washington


<snip>

Present and former CIA officials, quoted in The New York Times and The New Yorker magazine, claimed that a small number of powerful neo-conservative ideologues in the Pentagon were so determined to prove the existence of a banned weapons program and links to al-Qaeda that they manipulated intelligence.

According to a report written by Seymour Hersh, the veteran New Yorker investigative reporter, the Pentagon’s Office of Special Plans (OSP) relied too heavily on suspect intelligence provided by Iraqi defectors with links to the Iraqi National Congress, an opposition group headed by Ahmad Chalabi, an Iraqi exile.

<snip>

One former CIA official told Mr Hersh: “One of the reasons I left was my sense that they (OSP) were using the intelligence from the CIA and other agencies only when it fits their agenda. They were so crazed and so far out and so difficult to reason with . . . as if they were on a mission from God. If it doesn’t fit their theory, they don’t want to accept it.”

<snip>

Patrick Lang, a former head of Middle Eastern affairs in the Pentagon’s Defense Intelligence agency, told Nicholas Kristof, of The New York Times, that when experts wrote reports skeptical about the existence of weapons of mass destruction “they were encouraged to think it over again”.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0507-09.htm



---

Published on Sunday, June 8, 2003 by The Sunday Herald
Revealed: The Secret Cabal Which Spun for Blair
by Neil Mackay
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/unmovic/2003/0608secret.htm

Britain ran a covert 'dirty tricks' operation designed specifically to produce misleading intelligence that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction to give the UK a justifiable excuse to wage war on Iraq. Operation Rockingham, established by the Defense Intelligence Staff within the Ministry of Defense in 1991, was set up to 'cherry-pick' intelligence proving an active Iraqi WMD program and to ignore and quash intelligence which indicated that Saddam's stockpiles had been destroyed or wound down.

The existence of Operation Rockingham has been confirmed by Scott Ritter, the former UN chief weapons inspector, and a US military intelligence officer. He knew members of the Operation Rockingham team and described the unit as 'dangerous', but insisted they were not 'rogue agents' acting without government backing. 'This policy was coming from the very highest levels,' he added.

<snip>

Sources in both the British and US intelligence community are now equating the JIC with the Office of Special Plans (OSP) in the US Pentagon. The OSP was set up by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to gather intelligence which would prove the case for war. In a staggering attack on the OSP, former CIA officer Larry Johnson told the Sunday Herald the OSP was 'dangerous for US national security and a threat to world peace', adding that it 'lied and manipulated intelligence to further its agenda of removing Saddam'.

He added: 'It's a group of ideologues with pre-determined notions of truth and reality. They take bits of intelligence to support their agenda and ignore anything contrary. They should be eliminated.' Johnson said that to describe Saddam as an 'imminent threat' to the West was 'laughable and idiotic'. He said many CIA officers were in 'great distress' over the way intelligence had been treated. 'We've entered the world of George Orwell,' Johnson added. 'I'm disgusted. The truth has to be told. We can't allow our leaders to use bogus information to justify war.'

<snip>

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/unmovic/2003/0608secret.htm ...

---

America And Impeachment

` Kent Southard, Bush Watch

The simple, unadorned facts are these - the only 'intelligence' source that professed unequivocally that Iraq had stockpiles of WMD and an ongoing nuclear weapons program was the Pentagon's Office of Special Programs, established by Donald Rumsfeld and which had no agents in the field, only a half-dozen 'analysts' that were actually Republican congressional staffers. Their reports were contradicted by every other intelligence organization in the world, including our CIA and DIA and Britain's MI6. The only source for OSP's 'intel' was Ahmed Chalabi, a convicted swindler who left Iraq during the Eisenhower administration, and who had been promised by the Bush administration to be the top candidate to rule Iraq should Saddam Hussein be overthrown.

<snip>

This was all obviously known by the Bush administration, and accordingly it is also obvious that the administration lied through its teeth about the reasons for warring on Iraq, lied in every generality and every particular. Virtually every member of this administration that wanted this war is also a signator of the Project for a New American Century, whose plan formulated some years ago calls for domination of the world's oil supply, starting with an invasion of Iraq.

These are the simple, unadorned facts. Either the American people demand an Impeachment of this president and vice-president and they are removed from office; or else the America of the founding fathers is finished, and we might as well admit it. --06.16.03


http://www.bushwatch.com/kent.htm

Remember Bush in Iraq with that Plastic turkey? Chalabi was there, fat pig applauding that idiot (http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=lang_en&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=chalabi+bush+thanksgiving )

---

Posted June 19, 2003

More Missing Intelligence
by Robert Dreyfuss

<snip>

According to the former official, also feeding information to the Office of Special Plans was a secret, rump unit established last year in the office of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon of Israel. This unit, which paralleled Shulsky's--and which has not previously been reported--prepared intelligence reports on Iraq in English (not Hebrew) and forwarded them to the Office of Special Plans. It was created in Sharon's office, not inside Israel's Mossad intelligence service, because the Mossad--which prides itself on extreme professionalism--had views closer to the CIA's, not the Pentagon's, on Iraq. This secretive unit, and not the Mossad, may well have been the source of the forged documents purporting to show that Iraq tried to purchase yellowcake uranium for weapons from Niger in West Africa, according to the former official.

<snip>

Astonishingly, the Bush Administration did not even bother to prepare and internally publish an intelligence estimate about postwar Iraq. (An "estimate," in intelligence jargon, is a formal evaluation produced after sifting, sorting and analyzing various bits and pieces of raw intelligence. So-called National Intelligence Estimates are produced by a unit that reports immediately to Director of Central Intelligence George Tenet.) "Back in the old days, there would have been an estimate," says Raymond McGovern, the twenty-seven-year CIA warrior who formed Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity this past January. "In their arrogance, they didn't worry about it."

<snip>

Other sources concur. "There was no intelligence estimate done, and there weren't a lot of questions being asked," says Melvin Goodman, a former CIA analyst with the Center for International Policy. "And I know for a fact that at CIA and NSA , none of them thought that postwar Iraq would be governable." Goodman says that CIA and DIA experts on Iraq were not called in by the Pentagon, and no intelligence roundtables were held to evaluate the situation. Most of the intelligence about how easily the INC and its allies could assume power in Iraq was coming from the INC itself, says a former State Department official. "And I know for a fact that when the subject came up, intelligence officers were extraordinarily skeptical of the exiles' information."

<snip>

On the eve of the invasion, there was something akin to panic at the Norfolk,Virginia-based US Joint Forces Command, which was responsible for supporting the Pentagon's Iraq task force, then headed by retired Gen. Jay Garner. "They were scared shitless," says a former US official who was in close contact with the command. "They were making it up as they went along." He adds, "There was a great deal of ignorance. They didn't know the names of the tribes, much less how they relate to each other. They didn't have the expertise, and they didn't have enough time to assemble the expertise."

<snip>
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030707&s=dreyfuss

---



Niger-Uranium Timeline
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=niger_timeline

THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION AND WMDs: THEN AND NOW
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=bush_wmd_summary " ...

---

Richard Perle


In 1968 the neocons backed the late Senator Hubert Humphrey from Minnesota for president. In 1972, they mobilized their support behind the late Senator Henry Jackson from Washington. Both Humphrey and Jackson represented staunch anti-Soviet and pro-Israeli positions in the party...Senator Jackson's aides, Richard Perle and Elliott Abrams, who later became major figures in the Reagan foreign policy team, attempted to torpedo any effort by the Nixon and Carter administrations to improve relations with the Soviet Union or to launch peace efforts in the Middle East. From Jackson's office, the two led the campaign to use the issue of Jewish immigration from the Soviet Union to sabotage detente between Washington and Moscow...The neoconservatives formed the Coalition for a Democratic Majority (CDM) in 1973, aimed at rallying anti-Soviet and pro-Israeli Democrats in opposition to the McGovern liberals. That year also saw the beginning of the neoconservative drift toward the Republican Party, whose leaders saw in recruitment of the neocons an opportunity to improve Republican status in the media and in academic circles...It was the Carter administration's foreign policy agenda, including its efforts to improve the relationship with the Soviets and to accommodate the national interests of the Palestinians, that accelerated the political transition of the neocons from the Democratic to the Republican Party. Carter did not bring any members of the CDM into his administration...
The CDM, with the help of neoconservative columnists like Krautharnmer and Safire and of the New Republic, was the driving force behind a coordinated effort to weaken public support for Carter. For example, Michael Ledeen...whose name would surface later as one of the instigators of the IranContra affair (a note here - he was the Mossad-CIA link during the Iran-Contra scandal, and the man who got convicted spy J Pollard his Department of the Navy job) wrote an article in the New Republic which revealed ties between the late Billy Carter, the president's alcoholic brother, and Libyan government officials...At the same time, members of the CDM and other neoconservatives played a leading role in shaping the agenda of the Reagan administration...In addition to Kirkpatrick, who got her job as US representative to the UN after an article she published in Commentary caught Reagan's interest, other neocons occupied top positions in the Reagan foreign policy team. One was Max Kampelman, a former aide to Humphrey who was appointed to the position of director of arms control, and who was later replaced by another neocon, Kenneth Adelman. Richard Perle became the assistant secretary of defense. Richard Pipes, a regular Commentary contributor, joined the National Security Council. Elliot Abrams served as assistant secretary of state for human rights and later as assistant secretary for hemispheric affairs, where he played an active role in the Iran-Contra affair...it was the end of the Cold War that spelled disaster to the neocons, now at risk of being deprived of their favorite enemy...Enter the Middle Eastern bogeyman. - neoconservative intellectuals have focused on the need for the US to confront the new transnational enemy from the East, radical Arab nationalism and Islamic "fundamentalism," or what Krauthammer termed the "global intifada." The operational implication of this type of reasoning is that the original intifada can be forgotten. The neocons' main antagonists in the successful effort to get the United States to start shooting in the campaign to contain Saddam were the so-called "paleoconservatives," such as Pat Buchanan and Joseph Sobran, who since the end of the Cold War had been advocating a less activist American foreign policy...Most US proponents of sanctions, whether liberal or conservative, feared that a war in which thousands of Arabs died at American hands would, in the long run, increasingly isolate Washington in the region. Ironically, the only way to prevent such negative results of the neocon agenda would be decisive efforts by the Bush administration to follow up the rollback of Saddam with an Israeli-Palestinian settlement based upon land for peace. It is just such efforts, however, that the neocons can be counted upon to oppose..."

That was 1991 - the neocons kept on trying, and got their big chance after the G W Bush victory and 9/11.
A few more details about the main characters:

<snipped, you'll have to read the rest here: http://neoconconjob.blogspot.com

---


An entire history to be found here: PNAC Links Archive

+++++

More here:

The spies who pushed for war
www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=18394&mesg_id=18394&page=#18768


Matcom's Dad (Ex CIA) Weighs In On "SPIES WHO PUSHED FOR WAR"
www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=58441#58683

BFEE/PNAC Mob's sleazy "Office of Special Plans" exposed by Guardian
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=56016

Plenty, plenty more in the archives.

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Frederik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #36
76. Wow, thanks
for the "neoconjob" link, a couple of details there that were new to me, for example the fact that Albert Wohlsletter of the RAND Corporation, who taught Perle, Wolfie and Chalabi at the University of Chicago, was Kubrick's model for Dr. Strangelove! How very appropriate, the current crew of crazies are Dr. Strangelove's true successors.
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Englander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 05:22 AM
Response to Reply #36
96. They're excellent articles,
I've bookmarked the Guardian,Haaretz,Herald & Nation
articles.




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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
40. Very few people will see this thread, banished into this forum
That's unfortunate, because it's relevant to the push to war with both Iraq and Iran and much else.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
45. Pentagon analyst indicted for leaks to Israel (WSWS analysis)
Pentagon analyst indicted for leaks to Israel: a subterranean power struggle in Washington
By Patrick Martin
10 May 2005


While it takes the form of an FBI investigation and a series of media leaks, what has erupted is a bitter conflict within the Washington political establishment. The foundation of the conflict is the recognition that the invasion of Iraq has become a strategic disaster for American imperialism. Initially launched on the premise that the United States would easily conquer the country and secure control of its immense oil resources—the world’s second largest—the Iraq war has become an albatross, tying down 140,000 troops, the bulk of the deployable US military, indefinitely.

Washington hoped to achieve a position of unchallengeable dominance in world oil markets and, with control of Iraq and Afghanistan and other military bases obtained after the 9/11 attacks, an impregnable strategic position in the Middle East and Central Asia. Instead, Iraq has become a quagmire that restricts rather than enhances the ability of the United States to threaten further military aggression. General Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, admitted last week in congressional testimony that the Iraq deployment would make additional US military action more difficult and costly.

No section of the US ruling elite will countenance an abandonment of the Iraq adventure, which would be a defeat far more shattering than Vietnam. The divisions have emerged over the next steps after Iraq, with the hard-line neo-conservative faction, impelled by a quasi-messianic belief in US military power, calling for an aggressive campaign against Iran. Their opponents, characterized as “realists” in Washington parlance, call for a narrower focus on securing Iraq and relying, at least for the time being, on diplomatic methods to deal with Iran and other potential targets like North Korea.

The issues in the Iran dispute include US support for exile groups, the credibility of US intelligence about alleged nuclear weapons projects, and potential US military action—in other words, the same constellation of issues that emerged in relation to Iraq. The neo-conservative faction, however, is now on the defensive, given the current state of affairs in Iraq and the exposure of its lies in the runup to the war in Iraq: there were no weapons of mass destruction, no ties to Al Qaeda, no plans by Saddam Hussein for using terrorists as proxies to attack the United States.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/may2005/pent-m10_prn.shtml
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
48. I hope there is one more Greatest vote before 3:45 so more DUers will
see this thread. I'm afraid very few will see it now that it was moved to this forum. It is NOT about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, it's about US politics and the relationships with Iraq and Iran.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
50. A headsup on this thread has been posted in the GD forum, and there is
already an amazingly extensive list of related DU threads posted as background. Here's the thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4015962
Thread title: Headsup: Great New Yorker article – “A pro-Israel lobby and an FBI sting"
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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Here is the background list from GD Nothing Without Hope
Analyst Charged With Passing Iran Info: Franklin Turned Self InTo FBI
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1444053
Fieth resigns from Pentagon today
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1186412
Former CIA official looks to leak the truth
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=886884
New Israeli spy probe has a 30-year history, insiders say
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=852863
Israel's Mole Inside the Pentagon
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=783161
FBI probes Jewish sway on Bush government
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=802725
Money from Iran Fuels Iraq Insurgency -Rumsfeld
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=810129
Israeli spy nest in the U.S. - Ashcroft says: ’Don’t arrest them!’
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=802249
FBI probes DOD office (spy probe widens)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph
p?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=784155
F.B.I said to reach official suspected of passing secrets ....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=786361
Analyst Who Is Target of Probe Went to Israel
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=784792
Knight Ridder:FBI espionage probe goes beyond Israeli allegations
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=784274
Pentagon Analyst Was Cooperating When Israel Spy Case Became Public
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=786505
Iran-Contra II? Fresh scrutiny on rogue Pentagon operation -Josh Marshall
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=784906
AIPAC's Overt and Covert Ops
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=788267
UK Express: (Perle) Faces (FBI) Quiz Over Links to Israeli Spy
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=785131
Israel Says It Has No Need to Spy on U.S.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=787437
F.B.I. Is Said to Brief Pentagon Bosses on Spy Case; Charges Are Possible
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=788936
LAT: FBI Questions Israeli Lobbyists (AIPAC) in Spying Probe ((Gilon mentioned)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=789576
FBI briefs Wolfowitz on Israeli spy claim
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=790076
F.B.I. Interviews 2 Suspected of Passing Secrets to Israel
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=792950
FBI seizes computer from AIPAC offices
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=791564
Pentagon Office in Spying Case Was Focus of Iran Debate
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=795432
Leak Probe More Than 2 Years Old (AIPAC)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=795905
AIPAC hires lawyers
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=794332
Spy probe scans neo-cons' Israel ties (long article from Asia Times)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=794029
FBI Informed White House of AIPAC Probe Two Years Ago
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=797181
Alleged Pentagon Leak to Iraqi Is Under Investigation
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=798060
Serving Two Flags The Bush Neo-Cons and Israel
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=799167
Israeli political advisor may have received U.S. secrets
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=795817
Wider FBI Probe Of Pentagon Leaks Includes Chalabi - WaPo
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=798333
LAT: Israel Has Long Spied on US,Say Officials(but CIA, Mossad "intimate")
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=798631
Defense, Cheney Iran Specialists Questioned in (Israeli Spy) Probe
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=801031
Leak Inquiry Includes Iran Experts in Administration (WaPo)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=801678
A Web Of Intrigue Inside the Israel espionage investigation
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=803022
Pro-Israel Lobby Has Strong VoiceAIPAC Is Embroiled in Investigation of Pe
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=803035
Israel's Mole Inside the Pentagon
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=783161
FBI probes possible Pentagon leak to Iraqi exiles
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=805885
Reporters' Files Subpoenaed
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=815381
Secrets: Classified Info: Springing a Leak
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x803017
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Thank you! Now the Headsup thread in GD is ON THE GREATEST PAGE
Edited on Mon Jul-04-05 03:13 PM by Nothing Without Hope
So this will be seen by more people. I hope the mods refrain from moving it to this obscure forum again, because it is central to US politics and the article has little to do with the Palestinian conflict.

To fully understand the neocons' ability to influence members of congress to vote for the invasion of Iraq and whatever comes in their push for regime change in Iran, THIS part of the picture must be exposed and understood.

To pretend that this is unimportant in US foreign policy in the Middle East is foolish and dangerously naive.

Here's the GD headsup thread on this article, which is now on the Greatest Page:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4015962
Thread title: Headsup: Great New Yorker article – “A pro-Israel lobby and an FBI sting"
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. "To fully understand the neocons' ability to influence members of congress
Edited on Mon Jul-04-05 05:10 PM by understandinglife
......... to vote for the invasion of Iraq and whatever comes in their push for regime change in Iran, THIS part of the picture must be exposed and understood."

Precisely, Hope. And, it is obvious that efforts to de-focus, deflect, disrupt, ....., the thorough analysis of the issues raised by your OP are extensive -- all the more reason for us to keep pushing the issues to the forefront at DU and elsewhere.


Thank you.

Peace

www.missionnotaccomplished.us

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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
57. Headsup: Great New Yorker article – “A pro-Israel lobby and an FBI sting"
Edited on Mon Jul-04-05 02:57 PM by Nothing Without Hope
This article centers on the Larry Franklin/AIPAC scandal, but it contains much more than that. This powerful lobby pushed for the Iraq War and wants regime change in Iran. It is one of the most powerful lobbies in Washington, closely connected with – and influential in the election or defeat of – many members of Congress, and its pressure affects decisions made by the US government and all aspects of Israeli national security.

Mods, this article is NOT about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and does not belong in that forum – it’s about US politics and one of the pressures brought to bear on foreign policy decisions. RIGHT NOW, THIS LOBBY IS PUSHING FOR REGIME CHANGE IN IRAN. We need to know about their influence and expose the process by which they join with the neocons in the push for this and other foreign policy objectives. They have great influence in Congress.

Here is the thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x95114
Thread title: New Yorker: the Franklin scandal shows how the pro-Israel lobby AIPAC

Please come join in the discussion of the New Yorker article and the others posted in the reply. We need to understand the role of this piece in the picture.

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seemslikeadream Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Background
Analyst Charged With Passing Iran Info: Franklin Turned Self InTo FBI
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1444053
Fieth resigns from Pentagon today
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=1186412
Former CIA official looks to leak the truth
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=886884
New Israeli spy probe has a 30-year history, insiders say
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=852863
Israel's Mole Inside the Pentagon
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=783161
FBI probes Jewish sway on Bush government
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=802725
Money from Iran Fuels Iraq Insurgency -Rumsfeld
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=810129
Israeli spy nest in the U.S. - Ashcroft says: ’Don’t arrest them!’
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=802249
FBI probes DOD office (spy probe widens)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph
p?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=784155
F.B.I said to reach official suspected of passing secrets ....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=786361
Analyst Who Is Target of Probe Went to Israel
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=784792
Knight Ridder:FBI espionage probe goes beyond Israeli allegations
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=784274
Pentagon Analyst Was Cooperating When Israel Spy Case Became Public
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=786505
Iran-Contra II? Fresh scrutiny on rogue Pentagon operation -Josh Marshall
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=784906
AIPAC's Overt and Covert Ops
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=788267
UK Express: (Perle) Faces (FBI) Quiz Over Links to Israeli Spy
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=785131
Israel Says It Has No Need to Spy on U.S.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=787437
F.B.I. Is Said to Brief Pentagon Bosses on Spy Case; Charges Are Possible
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=788936
LAT: FBI Questions Israeli Lobbyists (AIPAC) in Spying Probe ((Gilon mentioned)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=789576
FBI briefs Wolfowitz on Israeli spy claim
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=790076
F.B.I. Interviews 2 Suspected of Passing Secrets to Israel
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=792950
FBI seizes computer from AIPAC offices
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=791564
Pentagon Office in Spying Case Was Focus of Iran Debate
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=795432
Leak Probe More Than 2 Years Old (AIPAC)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=795905
AIPAC hires lawyers
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=794332
Spy probe scans neo-cons' Israel ties (long article from Asia Times)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=794029
FBI Informed White House of AIPAC Probe Two Years Ago
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=797181
Alleged Pentagon Leak to Iraqi Is Under Investigation
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=798060
Serving Two Flags The Bush Neo-Cons and Israel
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=799167
Israeli political advisor may have received U.S. secrets
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=795817
Wider FBI Probe Of Pentagon Leaks Includes Chalabi - WaPo
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=798333
LAT: Israel Has Long Spied on US,Say Officials(but CIA, Mossad "intimate")
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=798631
Defense, Cheney Iran Specialists Questioned in (Israeli Spy) Probe
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=801031
Leak Inquiry Includes Iran Experts in Administration (WaPo)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=801678
A Web Of Intrigue Inside the Israel espionage investigation
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=803022
Pro-Israel Lobby Has Strong VoiceAIPAC Is Embroiled in Investigation of Pe
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=803035
Israel's Mole Inside the Pentagon
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=783161
FBI probes possible Pentagon leak to Iraqi exiles
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=805885
Reporters' Files Subpoenaed
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=815381
Secrets: Classified Info: Springing a Leak
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x803017
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. WOW!!! Would you consider reposting this amazing list in the main
thread? I want it to be as much of a resource as possible.

And thank you!
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. What is the shortest book ever written.......
....PAC Lobbyist's Long Course on Ethical Behavior, aka The Cover Jacket says it all
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #57
61. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. Are contributor lists almost every Senator this country has.....
...available in a single convenient source or displayed among say a handful of sources where such a claim could be verified? If so, please post link(s). Thank you.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #57
62. Bookmarked. Recommended.
And, thank you to "seemslikeadream" for that excellent compilation of resources.




Peace.

www.missionnotaccomplished.us - How ever long it takes, the day must come when tens of millions of caring individuals peacefully but persistently defy the dictator, deny the corporatists their cash flow, and halt the evil being done in Iraq and in all the other places the Bu$h neoconster regime is destroying civilization and the environment in the name of "America."

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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #57
63. EXCERPT FROM THE NEW YORKER ARTICLE - this is about Iraq & IRAN
Edited on Mon Jul-04-05 03:41 PM by Nothing Without Hope
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/050704fa_fact
The New Yorker – “Letter From Washington”

REAL INSIDERS


by JEFFREY GOLDBERG
A pro-Israel lobby and an F.B.I. sting.
Issue of 2005-07-04
Posted 2005-06-27

(snip)

AIPAC’s leaders can be immoderately frank about the group’s influence. At dinner that night with Steven Rosen, I mentioned a controversy that had enveloped AIPAC in 1992. David Steiner, a New Jersey real-estate developer who was then serving as AIPAC’s president, was caught on tape boasting that he had “cut a deal” with the Administration of George H. W. Bush to provide more aid to Israel. Steiner also said that he was “negotiating” with the incoming Clinton Administration over the appointment of a pro-Israel Secretary of State. “We have a dozen people in his”—Clinton’s—“headquarters . . . and they are all going to get big jobs,” Steiner said. Soon after the tape’s existence was disclosed, Steiner resigned his post. I asked Rosen if AIPAC suffered a loss of influence after the Steiner affair. A half smile appeared on his face, and he pushed a napkin across the table. “You see this napkin?” he said. “In twenty-four hours, we could have the signatures of seventy senators on this napkin.”

(snip)

Unlike American neoconservatives, who have openly supported the Likud Party over the more liberal Labor Party, AIPAC does not generally take sides in Israeli politics. But on Iran AIPAC’s views resemble those of the neoconservatives. In 1996, Rosen and other AIPAC staff members helped write, and engineer the passage of, the Iran and Libya Sanctions Act, which imposed sanctions on foreign oil companies doing business with those two countries; AIPAC is determined, above all, to deny Iran the ability to manufacture nuclear weapons. Iran was a main focus of this year’s AIPAC policy conference, which was held in May at the Washington Convention Center. Ariel Sharon and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, among others, addressed five thousand AIPAC members. One hall of the convention center was taken up by a Disney-style walk-through display of an Iranian nuclear facility. It was kitsch, but not ineffective, and Rosen undoubtedly would have appreciated it. Rosen, however, was not there. He was fired earlier this year by Howard Kohr, nine months after he became implicated in an F.B.I. espionage investigation. Rosen’s lawyer, Abbe Lowell, expects him to be indicted on charges of passing secret information about Iranian intelligence activities in Iraq to an official of the Israeli Embassy and to a Washington Post reporter. A junior colleague, Keith Weissman, who served as an Iran analyst for AIPAC until he, too, was fired, may face similar charges.

(snip)

The person who, in essence, ended Rosen’s career is a fifty-eight-year-old Pentagon analyst named Lawrence Anthony Franklin, who is even more preoccupied with Iran than Steven Rosen. Franklin, until recently the Pentagon’s Iran desk officer, was indicted last month on espionage charges. The Justice Department has accused him of giving “national-defense information” to Rosen and Weissman, and classified information to an Israeli official. Franklin has pleaded not guilty; a tentative trial date is set for September. If convicted, he will face at least ten years in prison.

(snip)

Even some of AIPAC’s most vigorous critics do not see the Rosen affair as a traditional espionage case. James Bamford, who is the author of well-received books about the National Security Agency, and an often vocal critic of Israel and the pro-Israel lobby, sees the case as a cautionary tale about one lobbying group’s disproportionate influence: “What Pollard did was espionage. This is a much different and more unique animal—this is the selling of ideology, trying to sell a viewpoint.” He continued, “Larry Franklin is not going to knock on George Bush’s door, but he can get AIPAC, which is a pressure group, and the Israeli government, which is an enormous pressure group, to try to get the American government to change its policy to a more aggressive policy.” Bamford, who believes that Weissman and Rosen may indeed be guilty of soliciting information and passing it to a foreign government, sees the case as a kind of brushback pitch, a way of limiting AIPAC’s long—and, in Bamford’s view, dangerous—reach.

(snip)
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #57
65. Much additional material has been posted in the replies to the main thread
which was moved to the obscure Israeli-Palestinian forum. I am hoping that the mods perceive that this thread and this subject has little to do with Palestine but is central to our concern with the US neocons' confrontation with Iraq and their push for "regime change" in Iran. It also is another piece in the picture of how powerful lobbyists can entice and pressure our supposed representatives in Congress to act against our desires and the welfare of our country.

This issue should NOT be buried, it needs to be seen and understood.

For anyone thinking of calling this effort at education "anti-semitic," my answer is that it is no moreso than calling people who object to Bush's Iraq invasion "anti-patriotic." This has nothing to do with religion. It is politics.

Here again is the main thread, where much information has been posted in the replies:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x95114
Thread title: New Yorker: the Franklin scandal shows how the pro-Israel lobby AIPAC
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 06:01 PM
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not systems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. Disgusting.
Edited on Mon Jul-04-05 05:28 PM by not systems
And that is from an Atheist.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 06:01 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-04-05 06:16 PM
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newyorican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-05-05 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
84. Someone is trying very hard...
to get this thread locked and/or deleted.

I wonder why?
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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-05-05 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. That's strange
I was thinking the same thing, but then re read the initial issues and felt that the topic is too important -- In this day and age to see an important topic such as espionage, etc. relegated to the back pages...

It just goes to show how far many still need to go.

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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-05-05 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. Maybe it's the stench.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 07:33 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 08:02 PM
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not systems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #115
117. Did you find the New Yorker article odious? n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-06-05 08:59 PM
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-13-05 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
141. Someone once again is trying to talk about this censored subject.
I hope they are more successful at not being muzzled than I and the other posters were with this current butchered, inapproprately moved thread. (It has nothing to do with Israeli/Palestinian affairs - but moving it here effectively hid the thread.) here's the new thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5054112
Thread title: Is anyone here exploring the AIPAC - PNAC connection? I have

It's really too bad I wasn't allowed to post the excellent scholarly article by Prof. Juan Cole in this thread. I'm afraid to post it in the new one either, because that might get the whole thread booted. The whole experience of censorship I experienced with this thread forever changed the way I look at DU. Even two posts that had only the sentence "It's not anti-Semitic to oppose the political goals of AIPAC" were deleted. Let's see, with the new crop of moderators, whether this one is also spuriously deleted like most of the rest of the thread was.

The blatant censorship and my helplessness to do anything about it - appeals from me and from others who were concerned had no effect - really broke my heart. I thought DU was better than that. Liberty and freedom of the press, right?
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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-14-05 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #141
142. It is not AIPAC - it is APIPAC
APIPAC = AMERICAN PETROLEUM INSTITUTE POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE AT $3.04 POINT 9 A GALLON

APIPAC = AMERICAN PETROLEUM INSTITUTE POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE

Let's look at APIPAC

    1. Link to , Exxon Mobil's voice in Washington, Texaco Chevron's voice in Washington, Conoco Phillips' voice in Washington, BP's voice in Washington, even poor little Halliburton's voice in Washington.

    2. Link to


    3. Let's look at their http://api-ep.api.org/issues/index.cfm?bitmask=002006001000000000|National Energy Policy>, as in secret meetings with Rove and Halliburton former CEO Cheney -- $3.04 poit a gallon. The policy is drill, drill, drill, drill everywhere, and tax breaks for drilling everywhere.

    4. And of course, what would a DC lobby be without

    5. As to Global Climate Chnge, and increasing severity of Hurricanes, and melting of the polar ice caps

    6. As to the Arab embargo of not just Israel, but of Jewish, US citizens, emploed solely in the US, by US corporations in their US operations - why
      even thse the boycott goes on and is !


And let's look at PNAC.

    Have you actually read all of those 120 some odd, turgid Adobe Acrobat PDF files? Here's a Read them. I have.

    And when you get past William Kristol's wet dreams - it is all about projecting American power to assert hegemony over oil to assure American Soccer Moms gasoline to drive their little kiddoes around in Hummers.


It is all about AMERICAN BLOOD FOR OIL - and it has been going on for over 120 years -- read -- F. William Engdahl, A Century Of War : Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order and the .

I have only been in the (alternative, renewable, and green) energy industry for 30+ of the last 40+ years -- and before that I was a safety and environmental regulator.
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