Israel Preparing For an Invasion of Gaza

[tekisui]

Source: International Herald Tribune

JERUSALEM: Defense Minister Ehud Barak warned on Thursday that militants in Hamas-run Gaza would pay a "heavy price" if they continued to target Israel, as the Israeli military made preparations for a possible large-scale assault on the coastal territory.

A day earlier, militants had pummeled southern Israel with more than 80 rockets and mortar shells, causing no injuries but generating widespread panic. Israeli cabinet ministers huddled for hours discussing Israel's response to the barrage, and defense officials later said that ministers had approved a broad invasion of Gaza that would begin after winter rains subsided.

On Thursday, Barak insisted that "we will not accept this situation."

"Whoever harms the citizens and soldiers of Israel will pay a heavy price," he said.

He did not elaborate. But defense officials, speaking on condition on anonymity because they were not permitted to discuss the plans, said the Israeli operation would probably begin with airstrikes against rocket launchers and continue with a land incursion.

Israel has thus far been reluctant to press ahead with a campaign liable to exact heavy casualties on both sides. Past incursions have not halted the barrages, and officials fear anything short of a reoccupation of Gaza would fail to achieve the desired result of halting the rocket fire.

more: http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/12/25/mideast/mideast.php

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[oberliner]

2. Hamas launched 80 rocket and mortar attacks at Israel from Gaza in one day

That certainly seems to indicate that Hamas is looking for a war themselves.

[azurnoir]

3. The BBC gives a slightly different number

Israel warns Hamas over rockets

Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni warned Israel "cannot tolerate" Palestinian militants targeting Israeli citizens.

Some 50 rockets have been launched from Gaza in recent days, after the killing of three Hamas members by Israel.

Also in the original report from Israel it was mentioned that a rocket landed next to a kindergarten, I find it simply amazing how many times a rocket has landed next to a school, daycare or kindergarten, guess Israeli kids are luckier than Palestinian

But this next piece was particularly good

"I say to you in a last-minute call, stop it," Mr Olmert said, Israeli media reported.

"Don't let Hamas, which is acting against the values of Islam, put you in danger. Stop them. Stop your enemies and ours."

translation: please kill each other it will make for better PR than if we do it for you. How typical of Olmert

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7799593.stm

[oberliner]

4. All the news outlets give a slightly different number

The BBC report you cited: "some 50 rockets"

Another BBC report: "More than 50 rockets"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7798685.stm

Al-Jazeera: "more than 60 rockets"

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/2008122564545882814.html

AFP: "more than 70 projectiles"

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5j07JpD0_awd1vOeIvUrmRPcwBwLA

AP: "more than 80 rockets and mortars"

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ioi_0jtO9RjMwPNRoXNCndRPRq3gD959PR700

Take your pick.

By the way, what original report from Israel are you talking about? I have seen no report claiming that any of these rockets landed near a kindergarten. There was one that landed near a playground in Netivot. Is that what you meant?

And, unfortunately, not all Israeli children are "lucky" enough to avoid being injured or killed in the Hamas rocket attacks:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Memorial/2004/Dorit+Benisian.htm

Sept 29, 2004 - On the eve of the Sukkot holiday, Dorit Benisian, 2, and Yuval Abebeh, 4, and both of Sderot, were killed by a Kassam rocket fired from Gaza.

Dorit and Yuval, cousins and children of immigrants from Ethiopia, were visiting their grandmother. They were playing outside the house, on Haggai Street, under an olive tree, when they were directly hit by the Kassam rocket. Suffering massive injuries, both died shortly afterwards in hospital. About 30 people were wounded in the attack, for which Hamas claimed responsibility.

[azurnoir]

5. The big 3 Israeli online news outlets are consisent

about 80 also all 3 are consistent about Olmerts "plea" to the Palestinians and give a brighter picture of Ms Livni's meeting with the Egyptians.

I am very well aware of the 3 Ethiopian children injured in Sderot 4 years ago, they were not at school were they?

[oberliner]

6. The two children weren't injured, they were kiled - and they weren't Ethiopian, they were Israeli

They were the children of Ethiopian immigrants, but they were born in Israel.

You are correct that they weren't at school.

I'm not sure what your point is about the big 3 Israeli online news outlets.

[azurnoir]

20. How many Palestinian children have been killed?

oh wait they do not count as much do they?

My initial comment was that an amazing number of kassams that have landed next to schools, kindergarden s day care ect, until you tried to distract from that

Your article said the Ethiopian children were severely wounded but I remember from "ifamericaknew" that they were killed

The big 3 online news sources would be Ha'aretz, jpost and ynet

[oberliner]

24. My article said they were wounded? What are you talking about?

I linked to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs report whose first sentence states that Dorit and Yuval "were killed by a Kassam rocket fired from Gaza."

Your initial comment was based on an incorrect claim that rockets from this most recent attack landed near a kindergarten. There is no report that stated that.

I do not think that "an amazing number" of Kassams have landed next to schools and kindergartens.

Of the thousands of rocket and mortar attacks only a small number of them have landed near schools or kindergartens.

The fact that any of these rockets have landed near schools and kindergartens is horrible and, I'm sure, quite frightening for the residents of those towns.

The deaths of Palestinian children are equally heartbreaking as the deaths of Israeli children.

Two Palestinian children ages six and eight were killed by Kassam rockets last year when the rocket didn't quite reach Israel and ended up hitting a home in Gaza instead.

It's really despicable that Hamas has so little regard for the lives of not only Israeli children but of Palestinian children as well.

[azurnoir]

26. You are right I was wrong about your article

but how many children were killed by IDF or IAF during "Operation Hot Winter" last year?
Oh and your right about the kindergarten too it was a childrens playground I must remember semantics are more important than actual happenings

One of the rockets launched Wednesday exploded next to a children's playground in the southern town of Netivot and a mortar shell scored a direct hit on a house in Kibbutz Sha'ar Hanegev, causing extensive damage. A house in the community of Sdot Negev was also severely damaged after it absorbed a direct rocket hit.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1049820.html

[oberliner]

27. Thank you

In answer to your question, I believe that 25 children under the age of 18 were killed by the Israeli forces during Operation Hot Winter. If you have more accurate statistics, please share them. Every child's death as a result of this conflict is absolutely heartbreaking.

Regarding the rocket attack that hit the playground, I don't think that semantics are more important than actual happenings, but I do feel like it's a good idea to get the facts straight when possible.

In any case, I think we can both agree that the latest barrage of rocket attacks by Hamas ought to be condemned.

[azurnoir]

28. Yes om tht last point we agree n/t

[ProgressiveMuslim]

7. Makes one wonder why Israel broke the truce, doesn't it? nt

[oberliner]

9. Makes one wonder why rockets were launched against Israel continuously throughout the truce

Seems like it was more of a "period of calm" than any kind of actual truce.

One rocket attack launched from Gaza every few days does not exactly constitute a truce.

In any case, Hamas made their intentions clear with this most recent barrage.

Peace is not something they are particularly interested in pursuing.

[azurnoir]

12. Continuously attacking "Hamas" targets in the OPT

doesn't make for much of a truce either but i know that does not count.

[oberliner]

18. It counts - there was no "truce" - there was a "period of clam"

There were fewer attacks from both sides.

Certainly better than what is happening now, and what appears is going to happen in the near future.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

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[oberliner]

19. Israel does not want what you say they want

They want to live side by side at peace with a Palestinian state.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oberliner]

25. Well I agree with your first paragraph but not your second

First, to the question in your subject line - Hamas did not keep the truce. There were numerous rocket attacks during the "truce" period, just fewer than usual. Similarly, there were incursions into Gaza by the IDF, but also fewer than usual. Neither side observed any kind of truce - just a period of calm. Hamas, now, however, has made it very clear that they are interested in conflict as evidenced by the barrage of rocket attacks over the past few days now that the so-called "truce" is officially over. Certainly you cannot claim that the actions of Hamas over the past few days indicate a desire on their part for peace?

As I mentioned, I agree with your first paragraph, Israel is not the eternal innocent and the Palestinians are not the eternal boogie men. Both the Israeli and Palestinian leadership have done foolish things and are culpable for the current situation. It is my hope that the voices of reason on both sides will prevail and that they can sit down together and negotiate some kind of peaceful solution. Unfortunately, thngs do not look optimistic at this time.

Your second paragraph, however, I feel is a gross mis-representation of Zionism, but that's an argument that is had over and over on this board with very few minds changed. I'd be happy to discuss my views on the subject with you via PM if interested.

In any case, I can tell you that most Zionists want to live in peace next to a Palestinian state. What the borders of that state should be is, of course, not universally agreed upon, but I can promise you that the majority of Zionists do not wish to drive the Palestinians out of the West Bank and Gaza (though, to be sure, some do). Just as I am pretty confident that the majority of Palestinians don't wish to drive the Jews out of Israel (though some do).

[Vegasaurus]

8. What the heck does your "translation" mean?

Hamas is responsible for its citizens, and yet it treats them as pawns, and doesn't care about their welfare.

Who will stop Hamas from destroying the Palestinians? They are on their way.

[oberliner]

10. I'd like to attempt to translate the translation

I think that poster was suggesting that Olmert was telling the people of Gaza to overthrow Hamas. That it would be better "PR" for Israel if the Palestinians themselves defeated Hamas than if Israel did it.

I wonder what would happen if elections were held today. Does Hamas truly represent the will of the people of Gaza?

[azurnoir]

13. But elections will not be anytime soon will they?

the better PR is that if another civil war in Gaza is started lots of Palestinians civilians will die, Hamas will not likely be overthrown by civilians unless Fatah becomes involved and even then it is questionable but what a field day the Israeli and other press will have with human rights abuses and such, as I remember Olmert added Fatah overthrowing Hamas as a caveat to entering negotiations that he had already agreed to. Seems Palestinians killing each other is a popular theme these days.

[oberliner]

17. How about a massive march for peace?

What if tens or hundreds of thousands of Palestinians marched through Gaza City demanding that Hamas stop its rocket attacks against Israel?

What is Gazans contacted their local representatives and demanded that they be held accountable to the people and stop supporting violence?

If Hamas wishes to remain in power wouldn't they need to listen to the will of the people so that they can get re-elected?

If the people of Gaza made their voices heard in support of peace and against violence, wouldn't the Hamas leadership have to listen?

[azurnoir]

11. What did Olmert mean?

How are the people of Gaza to remove Hamas from power? Hamas has rejected election so what are the people to do scold them out of power?

[Larkspur]

14. Israel Lies. Hamas obeyed the last truce in July 2008 but Israel attacked Hamas on Nov. 4

From Chris Hedges article Israel’s ‘Crime Against Humanity’

SNIP

The point of this Israeli siege, ostensibly, is to break Hamas, the radical Islamic group that was elected to power in 2007. But Hamas has repeatedly proposed long-term truces with Israel and offered to negotiate a permanent truce. During the last cease-fire, established through Egyptian intermediaries in July, Hamas upheld the truce although Israel refused to ease the blockade. It was Israel that, on Nov. 4, initiated an armed attack that violated the truce and killed six Palestinians. It was only then that Hamas resumed firing rockets at Israel. Palestinians have launched more than 200 rockets on Israel since the latest round of violence began. There have been no Israeli casualties.

"This is a crime of survival," Falk said of the rocket attacks. "Israel has put the Gazans in a set of circumstances where they either have to accept whatever is imposed on them or resist in any way available to them. That is a horrible dilemma to impose upon a people. This does not alleviate the Palestinians, and Gazans in particular, for accountability for doing these acts involving rocket fire, but it also imposes some responsibility on Israel for creating these circumstances."

SNIP

Falk is Richard Falk, the U.N. special rapporteur for human rights in the occupied Palestinian territory and a former Princeton University law professor.

Israel, or right wing fanatics in Israel, want to take all of the Palestinian lands. Like the 19th Century US Government, the only good Palestinian is a dead one or one driven completely out of Palestine.

[oberliner]

16. Is the Associated Press lying?

Are you claiming that Hamas has not launched rockets and mortars at Israel?

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

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[Behind the Aegis]

23. The anti-Israel bigots will have a hey-day with this.

[azurnoir]

29. Just out of curiousity what does DTD stand for? n/t

\

[Behind the Aegis]

30. Where do you see that?

[azurnoir]

31. Somewhere memory escapes me

so it could be document type definition or something but thanks I am sure LOL

[bemildred]

32. XML DTD was the only thing I could think of.

But it would be easy to make something up.

[azurnoir]

33. LOL n/t

[oberliner]

34. If you type "DTD" and "azurnoir" into Google

You get two hits which both refer to a website called "ProSemiteUndercover"

Is that what you are talking about?

[azurnoir]

35. Could be n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

36. I have no idea what you are talking about.

What does this have to do with anything?

[Name removed]

37. Deleted sub-thread

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