Israeli strike in Beirut kills 22 civilians...Collateral damage?

[blitzen]

Is this "eye for an eye" or "whole body for an eye"? Why is an Israeli soldier's life deemed a few dozen times more precious than an innocent Lebanese or Palestinian?


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13823680/

[Viva_La_Revolution]

1. CNN now reporting attack on N. Israel

at least one dead, 5 injured.

tit for tat indeed. :(

[ihaam]

37. No it isn't tit-4-tat....

Israel is using disproportional force against civilians....


Israel should have taken the offer by Hizbullah and exchanged it's soldier for a few thousands of Arab prisoners (including children) in Israeli jails......


No it is NOT tit for tat, by any stretch of the english language...!!

[ChuckyDee]

40. please, get real.

People, if you want to see disproportionate attacks, Israel could take out thousands of people a minute.

As it stands, they're doing what needs to be done since NO ONE in this world seems capable or willing to deal with Hamas and Hizbullah appropriately - and that means destroying these nazi militia groups until they no longer exist in order to carry out their genocidal plans of extermination against the Jews.

[hiro]

2. ....

They've just hit the airport....great, that strands my parents in Lebanon. They work there, but now they've got no way out.

Hezbollah shows itself again to be thoughtless...they thought they could screw with Israel, but they really should have thought this through before doing something that would end up ruining things so much. I've been looking at the pictures of the targets that Israel hit...Hezbollah is going to be the reason, yet again, for the Lebanese people's suffering and inconvenience.

The sad thing is, the Lebanese government, from what I sensed when I was in Beirut, is afraid of Hezbollah. After all, Hezbollah rules southern Lebanon practically as an independent fiefdom...

Idiots.

-H.

[Terran1212]

4. I'm not sure that Hebzollah told Israel to target and kill civilians

In response for their very targetted attack on IDF soldiers rampaging through Gaza illegally and committing crimes against humanity.

I agree they need to back down, but to absolve Israel of blame is to say its crimes against humanity are alright.

[hiro]

5. Right.

I agree with you, believe me. I had Palestinian friends who would occasionally tell me "There are tanks outside my family's house back in the West Bank right now...", and I had friends who watched the Lebanese electricity generation plants get bombed to pieces.

But ultimately, as William Tecumseh Sherman said, "War is hell"-- no matter which side you're fighting on.

-H.

[Terran1212]

8. Exactly; I pray the peace majority here would stand up strongly

I don't think the majority of the jews and arabs want to fight at all. They're being led by the killers and extremists. They need to stand up and unite against this, as hard as that is with such terror being rained upon them by all sides (israel more than the arabs, however; last I checked Israel is fine and in peace while Lebanon and Palestine are being occupied).

[akushuki]

10. I'm prone to side with Israel on this one...

Israelis have been facing radical Islam since they entered the region, they needed a trial by fire just to establish their right to exist. Their citizens are repeatedly targeted by these terrorist organizations who's sole purpose is to establish a modern day Caliphate. Israel has a right to defend herself and her people from these terrorists. Israel does not target civilians, they attempt to weed out the terrorists from the civilians. Many die. It is a consequence of war.

Israel has been an amazing stabilizing and destabilizing force in the middle east. For example, I've never been afraid of Iran getting nukes because I know that Israel would blow the operation up if they even came close. Nobody in the middle east wants Iran to get nukes and Israel is the only one's that can stop them. On the other hand, Israel continues to suppress the Palestinians.

End result of all the mumbo jumbo? Its complicated and there is no clear cut answer, but, I side with the Israelis here.

[Terran1212]

12. Isrealis are fine; they're living in perfect peace and comfort

Meanwhile right now Palestinians and now Lebanese are being killed in the scores, hundreds of thousands are being cut from water and power. You don't think that has a little something to do with their violence?

When you say Israel doesn't target civilians that's really non sequitor; they have bulldozed the homes of tens of thousands and openly destroyed power plants, apartment complexes, and other things. They can claim noble intention but then again so can Hamas.

[akushuki]

14. Scores?

I've heard of minimal collateral with many shells and bombs being dropped.

Did it ever occur to you that because Israel tries so hard to defend herself that this is why Israelis are 'living in perfect peace and comfort'. I'm sure the families of those captured soldiers are laughing it up right now over a bottle of gin eh?

And no, I don't think there is anything false with the pretense that Israel does not try to murder civilians.

[Terran1212]

18. Israel doesn't defend itself

These actions are denounced at every Israeli university because the academia know these actions create more terrorism and violence. These actions are designed around controlling the Arabs, not defending against them.

Israel does try to murder civilians. It has and will continue to if that's what it feels is needed to retain control over the Arabs. You can claim different, but your greatest evidence will be Israel's claim of noble intent. Which means nothing as it has killed near a hundred Arabs the past few days, mostly civilians -- while cutting near a million people off from food, water, electricity.

That's Benevolent Israel for you.

[akushuki]

21. Israel isnt benevolent...

Israel is an extremely aggressive state that is aggressive to defend the jewish people.

Remember Operation Entebbe? Was that an operation aimed at Uganda and the Ugandan people?
It was about protecting their citizens which they continue to do to this day. If the terrorists hide in cities, Israel will attack them there, if they hide in mountains, Israel will attack them there, if they hide in countries far from Israel, Mossad will still find them.

Israel keeps a wallop of nukes. Do they use them to commit mass genocide on Palestinians? No? Israel keeps these nukes as a last ditch effort to prevent the holocaust from repeating. Israel will never sit back and let its people be murdered by terrorists.

[cali]

31. Wait a minute

Living in perfect peace and comfort? That's called revisionism, and it's a lousy idea no matter how you feel about a given situation. The night before last, Hizbollah, an organization that is part of the Lebanese gov't (contravening the UN final border agreement)and the only entity that has troops on the border, crossed into Israel, killed 8 soldiers, and captured/abducted/kidnapped two wounded Israeli soldiers. In addition they fired off something like 50 rockets, injuring several civilians, two of them seriously.

Now i don't say that Israel doesn't target civilians; when you fire into densely populated environs, you're going to kill people. And someone who is killed from collateral damage is just as dead, but this myth that Israel had no provocation, that it was the capture of one soldier, is nonsense. I don't know what the Israelis should have done; going into Lebanon seems counter productive, but the Israelis were the ones who were invaded. Hizbollah is an organization that is not only tolerated by the gov't of Lebanon, it's part of it.

[Violet_Crumble]

33. A correction....

The night before last, Hizbollah, an organization that is part of the Lebanese gov't (contravening the UN final border agreement)and the only entity that has troops on the border, crossed into Israel, killed 8 soldiers, and captured/abducted/kidnapped two wounded Israeli soldiers.

No, that's not correct. Some of those Israeli soldiers were killed when they crossed the border into Lebanon to try to rescue the captured soldiers and encountered mines....

[Solo_in_MD]

32. Say what

"Isrealis are fine; they're living in perfect peace and comfort"

Suicide bombers on buses and in other public places is not my idea of perfect peace and comfort.

[blitzen]

13. Israel is not facing "radical Islam"

What I mean by that is that the issues are political--about territory, resources, economy, etc--and only secondarily "religious." So-called "radical Islam" is a recent label that applies in some cases, but is irrelevant to the root causes of Israel's conflict with Palestinians and its neighboring nations.

[akushuki]

15. I disagree,

Sure there are many reasons but the uniting factor common to these terrorist organizations seems to be religion.



I should have realized that defending Israel would cause a firestorm here. :eyes:

[blitzen]

16. no firestorm, i just disagree

but why take my word for it? instead, perhaps read some history. here's a suggestion

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0521556325/sr=8-1/qid=1152769406/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-3771568-0336912?ie=UTF8

[akushuki]

20. From the same site

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0741424398/qid=1152769552/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/103-9874311-6578268?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

Oh and How 'bout this ridiculous book and author. Don't believe everything you read.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0895260263/qid=1152769655/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-9874311-6578268?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

[blitzen]

22. if you think ilan pappe and david horowitz are equally credible and

legitimate scholars, then good luck to you!


FYI, I teach grad courses on Islam at a major university...I know a little bit about it. I'm not trying to "pull rank" on you--just trying to suggest that you bone up on some history before deciding that the problem between Israel and the Palestinians is "radical Islam." And I'm not denying that religion is a factor--but, historically, the conflict was primarily rooted in economics.

[bemildred]

34. Yes, I get so tired of that propaganda.

It's about money and power and land, like it always is.

[Maat]

24. Israeli forces illegally assassinate people ..

against international law (and, yes, international law is a part of each country's law as much as statutes are). That is unconscionable. They repeatedly violate international law, without consequence (the rightwing in Israel, that is).

[malaise]

36. Here's Chomsky's take on the latest

Scroll down

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/14/146258

[saltpoint]

6. Hiro, welcome to DU, and let me just pass on the ardent wish that

I hope your parents will be ok.

[DELUSIONAL]

3. World leaders can't hold public pissing contests -- so their fire weapons

weapons are dangerous displaced piss.

I just wished that this damned movie would end -- so we can see the comedy we paid to see.

Oh excuse me -- this isn't a movie?? Then I must be asleep -- I could have sworn that this is a rerun of an old nightmare.

Nope -- guess again -- we are wide awake -- and hell is only here on earth.

[liberalpragmatist]

7. Great

The sheer stupidity and futility of both sides is really getting old.

Why the hell does Hamas continue to fire rockets into Israel? Why did they kidnap a soldier and kill 2 others on Israeli soil?

Why does Israel react totally assymetrically, lashing out at the entire Gaza, destroying the roads, the power plant, and prompting a humanitarian crisis in the completely illogical belief that this is somehow going to ingratiate the Palestinians to Israel and make them reject Hamas?

Why then, despite SOME hopeful signs that the crisis will wind down (i.e. even Hamas' military wing offering a cease-fire) does Hezbollah kidnap MORE Israeli soldiers, and kill several others?

And what exactly does Israel then hope to accomplish by bombing the Beirut airport and continuing "targetted assassinations" that time and time again have resulted in scores of civilian deaths while the perpetrators get away?

The propensity of human beings for self-defeat is stunning. At the end of the day, what is going to have been accomplished? Sure, some delusional ideologues on either side will insist that an all-out war will give their side a strategic advantage, but does anyone sane doubt that this kind of thing will only lead them right back to square one?

[madrchsod]

11. religious blood feud

they will keep killing until there is no one left to kill.

[madrchsod]

9. Marching to Beirut

we are going to side with the israeli`s and the russians everyone else. the russians ceased to be a player in the middle east during reagan`s presidency now under bush they will be right back in again...bush has destroyed years of american influence in the region...
fun facts about syria-the syrian king hates the muslim brotherhood-get rid of the king and the brotherhod takes over syria. now that would be nice because the people who are the "masterminds" behind many terrorist acts around the world will be in control of a middle eastern country...

[walldude]

17. This has to go deeper than the kidnappings

you asked the million dollar question, "Why is an Israeli soldier's life deemed a few dozen times more precious than an innocent Lebanese or Palestinian?" Or an Israelies for that matter. Israel had to know Lebanon would counter strike. Was avoiding the prisoner exchange worth all this? Not unless there are pieces to the puzzle we aren't seeing. This whole thing is creeping me out.

[cal04]

19. Israeli aircraft hits Hizbollah TV in Beirut, 6 hurt

An Israeli helicopter fired a rocket into the building of Hizbollah television in the group's stronghold in Beirut's southern suburb on Thursday, wounding six people, witnesses and a security source said.

The raid in Haret Hreik neighbourhood which houses Hizbollah's leadership and media offices also slightly damaged al-Manar television headquarters. One of the wounded was an employee at the station, its chief said.

The strike came two hours after aircraft bombed two runways at Beirut international airport as part of an Israeli assault in Lebanon in retaliation for Wednesday's Hizbollah attacks in which two Israeli soldiers were captured and eight killed.

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=1019562006

[blitzen]

23. Hey, thanks a million, mods! Now I have to leave my own thread

since i avoid this I/P forum like the plague....And you should know why! The trolls are ready to pounce, and any semblance of discussion will give way to bullying and browbeating by the usual crowd. i could name the names, but i guess it's not necessary

DU Mods: when there is a major story involving Israel, please let us discuss it in GD for at least a few days. This I/P forum is an unpleasant place. Shouldn't there be some place for pleasant discussion about these issues?

[Kagemusha]

25. What people have gently told me is such a place doesn't exist

That is,

"Shouldn't there be some place for pleasant discussion about these issues?" <- Not possible in this material reality.

There should, but it's not considered realistic. I've been avoiding this place too but, I felt this issue was worth the effort to comment on.

[gardenista]

26. Unbelievable that your thread was moved here!

The mods need a powow on this indiscriminate lumping of LBN and CURRENT BREAKING STORIES into this forum.

[blitzen]

27. i guess they have new mods tonight...hopefully they'll learn

not to be so heavy-handed

[gardenista]

28. I'm sure they will. Hope it's soon. We're going to need GD

to function in a different way at least for the next couple of days.

[Skinner]

29. The mods did the right thing.

If people really want to discuss these issues, they know where to find the discussions.

[Violet_Crumble]

35. A defence of the I/P forum...

Yes, there are those who've taken up residence who have no interest in any real discussions, and I know which ones yr talking about. But after having read through this torrent of abuse that happened in LBN or GD before it got dumped here, the worst participants were a handful of folk who I hope never take up residence here coz their behaviour was totally disgusting. It's very rare that a thread will degenerate to that point in this forum.....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x133925

[blitzen]

38. okay, you and skinner have convinced me to give this forum

another try in the future


i guess i'll just try to ignore the professional factionalists

[TomClash]

30. Collateral Damage! Now that's hysterical!

But not to the two families recording 7 and 10 deaths, respectively, and the 52 dead civilians intentionally targeted in Lebanon.

The only difference is that suicide bombers weren't involved. As Violet Crumble points out about the IDF in another thread, so much for "Israeli morality." The State of Israel used to mean something noble and positive: a home for oppressed people. Now it has been relegated to Bush League status and the Star of David is morphing into something far more sinister. It's a sad and ugly meme.

[pelsar]

39. oh please....dont rewrite history now...

The State of Israel used to mean something noble and positive:

when did that happen?...before or after the nakba?, king david hotel..before or after the irgun and sten gangs?...before or after israel attacked the arab countries in 67? (as well as the liberty)

Isael was never some kind of "noble or positive" force as far as the world was concerned

israels been causing the "collateral damage" since day one (acutally from before as well)