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Synnical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 09:36 PM
Original message
Chomsky Video: Hamas Policies More Conducive to Peace than US or Israel
http://www.memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=1152

Look to the right, click on "View Clip" whereas Chomsky states that he's opposed to Hamas tactics. . . . but all the same . . . .


Hat tip to

Watching America:

http://watchingamerica.com/index.shtml

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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. Hey Chomsky, chomp this.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
2. Chomsky also said Pol Pot wasn't committing genocide
He's also lent his support to the Holocaust denial crowd...a helluva source, Chomsky is.
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Synnical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. And your source for that is? n/t
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. You mean you want to pretend the odious old crackpot didn't?
"In 1980, Chomsky expanded this critique into the book After the Cataclysm, co-authored with his long-time collaborator Edward S. Herman. Ostensibly about Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, the great majority of its content was a defense of the position Chomsky took on the Pol Pot regime. By this time, Chomsky was well aware that something terrible had happened: “The record of atrocities in Cambodia is substantial and often gruesome,” he wrote. “There can be little doubt that the war was followed by an outbreak of violence, massacre and repression.” He mocked the suggestion, however, that the death toll might have reached more than a million and attacked Senator George McGovern’s call for military intervention to halt what McGovern called “a clear case of genocide.”
Instead, Chomsky commended authors who apologized for the Pol Pot regime. He approvingly cited their analyses that the forced march of the population out of Phnom Penh was probably necessitated by the failure of the 1976 rice crop. If this was true, Chomsky wrote, “the evacuation of Phnom Penh, widely denounced at the time and since for its undoubted brutality, may actually have saved many lives.” Chomsky rejected the charge of genocide, suggesting that
the deaths in Cambodia were not the result of systematic slaughter and starvation organized by the state but rather attributable in large measure to peasant revenge, undisciplined military units out of government control, starvation and disease that are direct consequences of the US war, or other such factors. "

http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/21/may03/chomsky.htm

Chomsky provided a forward for a book by neoNazi Robert Faurisson, and has played footsie with neoNazis in other ways.

http://www.dyske.com/index.php?view_id=804

He's some swell source, all righty.
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. one of your sources is a neocon rag, the New Criterion.
Edited on Tue May-30-06 10:45 PM by jonnyblitz
I am surprised you didn't use David Horowitz's FRONTPAGEMAG.COM as a reference since you say the same things he does about Chomsky.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt....
Chomsky's a piece of shit. Fuck him and his disciples.
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. LMFAO! is that the best you can do? truly fucking PATHETIC. nt
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-01-06 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #10
22. Mad Libs
"_______ is a piece of shit. Fuck him and his disciples."
PERSON

You get to choose a PERSON. I choose... Al From.
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haab Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-04-06 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #8
33. Indeed New Criterion is Right Wing BS
Why the heck is a democrat quoting a right wing source..!

The sign of the times... I find that many Jewish Americans are turning to the republican party because their fascist views are more in-line with Israel.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. here is Chomsky in his own words
Edited on Tue May-30-06 10:23 PM by Douglas Carpenter
I would recommend that one should listen to the video/audio you mention in its entirety - if they are interested.

--- just in case facts matter:

His Right to Say It
Noam Chomsky
The Nation, February 28, 1981

link: http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/articles/8102-right-to-say.html

"Faurisson's conclusions are diametrically opposed to views I hold and have frequently expressed in print (for example, in my book Peace in the Middle East?, where I describe the holocaust as "the most fantastic outburst of collective insanity in human history"). But it is elementary that freedom of expression (including academic freedom) is not to be restricted to views of which one approves, and that it is precisely in the case of views that are almost universally despised and condemned that this right must be most vigorously defended. It is easy enough to defend those who need no defense or to join in unanimous (and often justified) condemnation of a violation of civil rights by some official enemy. "

another article - Link:

http://www.chomsky.info/books/dissent01.htm

QUESTION: I ask you this question because I know that you have been plagued and hounded around the United States specifically on this issue of the Holocaust. It's been said that Noam Chomsky is somehow agnostic on the issue of whether the Holocaust occurred or not.
here is detailed article

CHOMSKY: I described the Holocaust years ago as the most fantastic outburst of insanity in human history, so much so that if we even agree to discuss the matter we demean ourselves. Those statements and numerous others like them are in print, but they're basically irrelevant because you have to understand that this is part of a Stalinist-style technique to silence critics of the state and therefore the truth is entirely irrelevant, you just tell as many lies as you can and hope that some of the mud will stick. It's a standard technique used by the Stalinist parties, by the Nazis and by these guys

link to full article:

http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/other/85-hitchens.html

snip:"The Case of the Cambodian Genocide

David Horowitz and Peter Collier were wrong, in the syndicated article announcing their joint conversion to neoconservatism, to say that Chomsky hailed the advent of the Khmer Rouge as "a new era of economic development and social justice." The Khmer Rouge took power in 1975. In 1972, Chomsky wrote an introduction to Dr. Malcolm Caldwell's collection of interviews with Prince Norodom Sihanouk. In this introduction, he expressed not the prediction but the pious hope that Sihanouk and his supporters might preserve Cambodia for "a new era of economic development and social justice." You could say that this was naive of Chomsky, who did not predict the 1973 carpet-bombing campaign or the resultant rise of a primitive, chauvinist guerrilla movement. But any irony here would appear to be at the expense of Horowitz and Collier. And the funny thing is that, if they had the words right, they must have had access to the book. And if they had access to the book.... Well, many things are forgiven those who see the error of their formerly radical ways."

snip"Chomsky and Herman wrote that "the record of atrocities in Cambodia is substantial and often gruesome." They even said, "When the facts are in, it may turn out that the more extreme condemnations were in fact correct." The facts are now more or less in, and it turns out that the two independent writers were as close to the truth as most, and closer than some. It may be distasteful, even indecent, to argue over "body counts," whether the bodies are Armenian, Jewish, Cambodian, or (to take a case where Chomsky and Herman were effectively alone in their research and their condemnation) Timorese. But the count must be done, and done seriously, if later generations are not to doubt the whole slaughter on the basis of provable exaggerations or inventions"

the faurisson affair:

snip:In the early stages of this process, Chomsky received a request that he add his name to a petition upholding Faurisson's right to free expression. This, on standard First Amendment grounds and in company with many others, he did. The resulting uproar, in which he was accused of defending Faurisson's theses, led to another request from Thion. Would Chomsky write a statement asserting the right to free speech even in the case of the most loathsome extremist? To this he also assented, pointing out that it was precisely such cases that tested the adherence of a society to such principles and adding in a covering letter that Thion could make what use of it he wished. At this stage, only the conservative Alfred Grosser among French intellectuals had been prepared to say that Faurisson's suspension by the University of Lyons set a bad example of academic courage and independence. Chomsky's pedantic recitation of Voltairean principles would probably have aroused no comment at all had Thion not taker rather promiscuous advantage of the permission to use it as he wished. Without notification to Chomsky, he added the little essay as an avis to Faurisson's pretrial Memiore en defense"

snip:"I wouldn't accuse any of the critics listed here of deliberate falsification. But it is nevertheless untrue to describe Chomsky's purloined avis as a preface, as Fresco does on almost a dozen occasions and as Mayer does twice. It is also snide, at best, to accuse Chomsky of "breaking with his usual pattern" in praising "the traditions of American support for civil liberty." He has, as a matter of record, upheld these traditions more staunchly than most -- speaking up for the right of extremist academics like Rostow, for example, at a time during the Vietnam War when some campuses were too turbulent to accommodate them. It is irrelevant, at least, to do as Fresco also does and mention Voltaire's anti-Semitism. (As absurd a suggestion, in the circumstances, as the vulgar connection between Locke and imperialism.) Would she never quote Voltaire? Finally, she says that no question of legal rights arises because the suit against Faurisson was "private." What difference does that make? An authoritarian law, giving the state the right to pronounce on truth, is an authoritarian law whoever invokes it."
________________

I certainly don't think Chomsky should be the spokesman for the Democratic Party, nor does he want to be. The only Democrat celebrity I have ever come across who quoted Chomsky in a favorable way was Ed Schultz in his book, Straight Talk from the Heartland.

I don't see that the Republican Party leadership has ever been concerned about those who are waaaaaaaaaaaaay out of the mainstream of opinion. It certainly does not seem to have hurt them politically in the least. In fact they seem to revel in putting right-wing extremist front and center at every opportunity. They have for years. Does any sane person actually believe that the Republican Party gained dominance because they are such moderates and mainstream centrist?

Chomsky is an iconoclastic intellectual. He says a lot of different things; some agreeable and some not so agreeable, much like Jean Paul Sartre was France. Sartre was a committed Marxist-Leninist, but still was highly respected even within very conservative circles of France specifically because of his iconoclastic contribution. On this side of the Atlantic, Ema Goldman would have made Chomsky sound like a DLC Democrat, yet it did not stop Eleanor Roosevelt from befriending her. A bit earlier than that, Republican President Harding invited Eugene V. Debs to the White House as a special guest-after he had been pardoned by him and released from prison-just because he wanted to meet him. Has American society become so antiseptic and skewered so far to the right that only right-wing extremist are considered credible contributors to public thought?

Nobody has even accused Chomsky himself of being a Holocaust denier except from the most absolute ultra-right fringe. The actual accusation by some is that he is excessively tolerant of such deniers. That is not the same.

link:

link: http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/articles/8102-right-to-say.html

http://www.chomsky.info/books/dissent01.htm

http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/other/85-hitchens.html
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Synnical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Thank you - Chomsky is a linguist - and words have meaning
And if you watch the video, he explains his words.

It's odd, I think, that Chomsky is lauded in GD - 25 votes for Greatest:

Noam Chomsky: Why it's over for America

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1314444&mesg_id=1314444

But pissed all over in GDP?

-Cindy in Fort Lauderdale
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. "Crackpot" pretty much defines him.
"It's odd, I think, that Chomsky is lauded in GD"
Not at all...we've got a solid little knot of extremists that kiss his ass regularly.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. the faurisson affair:
link: http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/other/85-hitchens.html

snip:In the early stages of this process, Chomsky received a request that he add his name to a petition upholding Faurisson's right to free expression. This, on standard First Amendment grounds and in company with many others, he did. The resulting uproar, in which he was accused of defending Faurisson's theses, led to another request from Thion. Would Chomsky write a statement asserting the right to free speech even in the case of the most loathsome extremist? To this he also assented, pointing out that it was precisely such cases that tested the adherence of a society to such principles and adding in a covering letter that Thion could make what use of it he wished. At this stage, only the conservative Alfred Grosser among French intellectuals had been prepared to say that Faurisson's suspension by the University of Lyons set a bad example of academic courage and independence. Chomsky's pedantic recitation of Voltairean principles would probably have aroused no comment at all had Thion not taker rather promiscuous advantage of the permission to use it as he wished. Without notification to Chomsky, he added the little essay as an avis to Faurisson's pretrial Memiore en defense"

Chomsky's article from the Nation regarding the Khemer Rouge:

Distortions at Fourth Hand
Noam Chomsky & Edward S. Herman
The Nation, June 6, 1977

link: http://www.chomsky.info/articles/19770625.htm
_____________

and Chomsky on supporting Sen. Kerry :

"There are other differences. The popular constituency of the Bush people, a large part of it, is the extremist fundamentalist religious sector in the country, which is huge. There is nothing like it in any other industrial country. And they have to keep throwing them red meat to keep them in line. While they¹re shafting them in their economic and social policies, you¹ve got to make them think you¹re doing something for them. And throwing red meat to that constituency is very dangerous for the world, because it means violence and aggression, but also for the country, because it means harming civil liberties in a serious way. The Kerry people don¹t have that constituency. They would like to have it, but they¹re never going to appeal to it much. They have to appeal somehow to working people, women, minorities, and others, and that makes a difference.

These may not look like huge differences, but they translate into quite big effects for the lives of people. Anyone who says "I don¹t care if Bush gets elected" is basically telling poor and working people in the country, "I don¹t care if your lives are destroyed. I don¹t care whether you are going to have a little money to help your disabled mother. I just don¹t care, because from my elevated point of view I don¹t see much difference between them." That¹s a way of saying, "Pay no attention to me, because I don¹t care about you." Apart from its being wrong, it¹s a recipe for disaster if you¹re hoping to ever develop a popular movement and a political alternative."

link: http://www.organicconsumers.org/corp/chomsky090204.cfm
_________________

and for those interested:





http://www.chomsky.info/audionvideo.htm



http://www.chomsky.info/articles.htm


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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Yeah, he was so opposed to Faurisson that he wrote a forward for his book
and his apologias for Pol Pot are public record...and disgraceful.
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-01-06 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #7
26. apologies for Pol Pot are on record huh?
wanna show us where? and that means something from Chomsky's own mouth not simply a para where someone else CLAIMS he said that as you provided above
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. benchley isn't going to read that. he has his right wing sources
that say otherwise. :rofl:
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Bill O'Rielly agrees with MrB
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. And Jeff Rense agrees with Chomsky.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. In what sense?
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #11
17. well johah goldberg writes for them...
This is what the New Criterian has on Hillary Clinton:

http://newcriterion.com/search/?s=hillary+clinton

This is what the New Criterian has on John Kerry:

http://newcriterion.com/search/?s=john+kerry

And this is about the Author above:

Keith Windschuttle is an author and publisher who is a frequent contributor to The New Criterion and Quadrant. He is author of The Killing of History: How Literary Critics and Social Theorists Are Murdering Our Past, which is now in its fourth edition from Encounter Books, and five other books on contemporary social issues. His book The Fabrication of Aboriginal History, Volume One, Van Diemen's Land 1803-1847, will be published by Macleay Press, Sydney, in November.
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LincolnMcGrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-30-06 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. except from the most absolute ultra-right fringe
Who'da thunk they would be here on DU?
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
21. Douglas... thanks, but since Chomsky's detractors can only speak in one
one-sentence profanities, I think you are really wasting your time typing this stuff out. No matter the amount of research, citations you provide, they will seek to dismiss him with short unsubstantiated and obviously misleading accusations.

The rest of us respect Noam Chomsky.
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-01-06 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Primary Sources vs Historiography
When trying to understand a historical event it is often good to examine primary sources. If people are too busy to be bothered by the primary sources or just have a lazy mind then they can accept other people's version of the events at face value.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-01-06 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Ain't nuthin' there to detract from, anyhow.
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Tom Joad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
20. Self-delete
Edited on Wed May-31-06 09:54 PM by Tom Joad
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Djinn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-01-06 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
25. bullshit
criticising the attempts to silence Holocaust deniers is NOT lending credence to them. I also strongly defend the right of any individual numpty to say whatever they like, Holocaust denial, Fred Phelps and his offensive funeral protests etc etc

Defending free speech is not the same as defend the content of that speech.

His supposed excusing of Pol Pot was nothing of the sort - he compared the media's reporting and how some genocides are given more attention than others, he points out how some lives are considered more important in the west than others depending on who killed them.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
29. I remember a thread on this topic (Pol Pot) a while back
Chomsky needs to stick to linguistics
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Synnical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-31-06 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
19. God's Balls - I posted this hoping for discussion on Chomsky's views
But all I'm reading are attacks/support of the man himself. Straw Man arguments.

I'm about to give up on DU. You guys and gals do remember discussion, don't you?

-Cindy in Fort Lauderdale
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #19
27. I liked the part where he revels in the fact..
that SOME people consider him an anti-semite. He then proceeds to spin the meaning of anti-semitism to mean something totally different than the actual meaning. The entire video is filled with purposeful distortions, imo Chomsky compromised his integrity years ago, now he is a circus act for far leftists/socialist libertarians.

His linguistic theories are a joke, and have all been completely refuted.
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Wow, I did not know that. Can you direct me to those refutations?
I had no idea all of Chomsky's linguistic theories have been refuted...

PB
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Sure thing..
http://language.home.sprynet.com/chomdex/rea44.htm

I have concluded that, in large part, Chomsky's work is not comprised of scientific theories.
http://diary.carolyn.org/abstract.html

Jerrold Katz, Scott Soames, Michael Devitt, and Kim Sterelny have presented a number of arguments, all intended to show that the Chomskian subfield hypothesis is incorrect—there is a significant distinction between the disciplines of linguistics and psychology
http://aardvark.ucsd.edu/grad_conference/mcdonald.html
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. next time i'm at ASU I will get you some citations
from peer-reviewed journals. For now all I have is the links I provided.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. Chomsky's refuted many of them himself.
Consider Standard Theory and Minimalism, and point out any similarities they have in common that they don't also share with any other linguistic theory.

He lost me in '96 and '97, when he described a constraint-based syntax, and rejected the very idea of syntax being constraint based. Why use constraints? To account for data that could *almost* be included. No longer would Chomsky deny that Russian was a human language. But to say 'constraint-based' would open the door to a competitor, and one thing Chomsky has always done is tacitly use competitors' insights while denying that any competitor-theory could even exist. That in the course of a couple of years the core theory flip-flopped a bunch of times; you'd read an article, work on a paper, and then read that the underlying assumptions of the theory had changed drastically. The competition finally drove Chomsky to say "ok, we won just like we knew we would, let's look over *here* at these incredibly big, data-poor, abstractions"; except that many people said 'not so fast, Nimsky', even in his self-delineated field.

A lot of people didn't have the luxury of spending all their time dealing with theory-internal wrangling and revisions to theory, they had actual data to look at, actual linguistics to understand.

Cog psych people ignore Chomsky; his theories make incredibly wrong, completely impossible predictions at times. In the '70s when it first became obvious that his predictions were wrong, he made the principled decision to ignore cog psych people, and their data. Language was different, it used a different 'module', and he relied on evidence that there were language centers in the brain. He denied that interpretation of what he wrote later; and, to be clear, what he wrote is ambiguous. But it became very clear that while certain portions of the brain were specialized, those portions were specialized for function, not form, and many functions were widely distributed, linguistic processing being done in areas far from the traditional 'language centers'. It also became fairly clear that language was integrated with general cognition. The 'language module' was a purely abstract, hypothetical device.

Linguistics is more split and fragmented, IMHO, than at any time since the early '70s. Chomsky won the linguistic wars then, kicking out Jackendoff and Langacker, exiling Lakoff and others. He's pretty much lost the wars this time; the competing theories handle the core data as well as his does (now--they all sucked in the early '70s), and offer principled accounts for some sort of grammar beyond the sentence.

I always thought that linguistics would fragment upon his death--since the mid-60s his real job has been to survey the literature and produce a new synthesis, tacitly pirating other people's work and insight, and doing very little actual linguistics himself: his students were merely proud at being used, and those 'outside the field' had no voice when they were abused. Without a Great Summarizer, I reasoned, the field would fragment in a decade. I never imagined that the disintegration would be data-driven and occur in his lifetime when he made a serious theoretical misstep. I learned my Chomskian syntax just as it was poised to fragment. Still use it as an operational framework; don't believe it in the least.
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