UN faults Israel for halt in funds to Palestinians

[WhiteTara]

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1641303

Feb 20, 2006 — By Adam Entous

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - The U.N. envoy to the Middle East raised objections on Monday to Israel's decision to withhold tax funds from the cash-strapped Palestinian Authority after a Hamas-led parliament was sworn in.

Special Envoy Alvaro de Soto called the decision unhelpful and premature. Israel has long regarded the U.N. as a minor player in the Middle East peace process compared to the United States, which gave a low-key response to Israel's move.

"These are monies that belong to the Palestinians and should not be withheld," de Soto told Reuters one day after Israel's cabinet announced a permanent halt to the monthly transfer of about $50 million in tax revenues Israel collects on behalf of the Palestinians.

Israel's government made the decision after Washington, the Jewish state's biggest ally, asked the Palestinian Authority to return $50 million of its own aid to ensure it does not reach Hamas. The Islamic group is sworn to Israel's destruction.

When are these men going to put down their swords and do the things that need to be done...save our planet. Global warming is progressing so much faster than thought. An ice shelf thought to be able to last another 100 at current melt rate, melted in LESS THAN 45 DAYS
The Sky is Falling The Sky is Falling!

[Burning Water]

1. I cannot logically see

any reason for Israel to subsidize its own destruction. Regardless of what the UN has to say. which is very little on the I/P question that is constructive.

[Malikshah]

2. Well it did so in the 80s when it, along with US aid, helped

support Hamas as a foil to the secular Fatah...

It's called irony. karma. what have you.

Should it freeze assets it will simply cement it in the minds of many there that it cares not one whit for democracy.

It will also embolden the radicals to push out the pragmatists among the Palestinians..leading to more violence which, of course, is an age-old tactic. Get rid of moderates to fight the radicals...

If it weren't at the cost of innocent Israeli and Palestinian lives it would be seen as a tiresome ploy. Now, it's just tragic.

[Burning Water]

7. So, you're saying that

because they made a mistake in the past, they have to keep making it the exact same way forever??

I don't see it that way.

[Malikshah]

13. Uh...no-- I would never begin to say that Israel has to do anything

heaven forbid. I know better than that.

The gist of my post is clear-- Karma's a bitch.

[Burning Water]

15. Well, there

ain't no such thing as Karma, but if there was, the Palestinians would be subject to it too.

[Malikshah]

16. Uh...wow-- the old

"they did it too" issue.

Guess that makes it OK, then.

As if I inferred otherwise.

Hmmm where is that book on the methods of I/P argument?????

[Burning Water]

17. No, you totally misunderstand.

Let me make it simple for your. The Israelis have a right to defend themselves and their country. If the Palestinains had not continually attacked Israel trying to wipe it off the map, they wouldn't be in the fix they are today. They have no one to blame but themsleves. Israel right, Palestinians wrong. Until they give up terror.

Now that they basically have their own state, if they keep attacking Israel, Israel can take the gloves that they have been wearing for so long off.

[Scurrilous]

18. The Palestinians have a state?

Where?

[Burning Water]

19. Gaza n/t

[Scurrilous]

20. There is no Palestinian state in Gaza.

Bush asked the PA to declare a temporary Palestinian state in Gaza and they refused.

[Burning Water]

24. I'm not going to argue

with you about it. It just shows that the Palestinians problems are entirely of their own making.

[Malikshah]

21. Ah-- I found the book I needed

Can I borrow it from you. You seem to be using the tried and true version of I/P history.

It's just a bit outdated, what with all the new documentation and research done out there...

Plus all the old arguments used--circular and tiresome, but trotted out for nostalgia's sake.

Thanks, though. I was wondering where that dusty old tome had gone off to.

Seriously, though-- get a new act. Or at least be careful with this one and don't break it-- it's an antique.

Own state? please.

Continually attacked Israel? double-please.

Good lord--this is what a modern education results in? I weep for the generations.

[Burning Water]

25. Ah, but I have

an old-fashioned education, and am exactly as old as Israel. I watched the history happening and can't be bullshitted by the willfully ignorant.

[Malikshah]

26. You know-- this explains a bit

As I'm an objective scholar of this issue and other issues in the region, I have sifted through many of the documents, old and new; read many of the histories, old and new--and have learned to think as an objective outsider on the issue.

What I have seen from the replies thus far is standard, by the book, BS. I've been around the block long enough to know that it is useless to argue with folks who cannot see beyond their own indoctrination.

My Don Quixote outfit is at the cleaners, in any case.

Have fun, and remember this.

No one has a monopoly on morality or victimhood. No. one.

[Burning Water]

27. Right you are.

But the Palestinians need to grow up

Cheerio.

[Dutch]

36. Er, "objective" is not really an accolade a person can reliably bestow

upon themselves...particularly when they regard those who disagree with them as "indoctrinated"...

No one has a monopoly on morality or victimhood. No. one.

Well, given that no one suggested otherwise, we can only speculate as to what motivated that little gem. Hard to imagine it was rooted in any sort of "objective" thinking, however.

[Malikshah]

40. As to motivation

all one needs do is read the lines posted-- especially the final rejoinder along the lines of "the Palestinians did it too"

In other words-- I categorically disagree with you as to "no one" suggesting otherwise.

As for objectivity-- yup-- as an academic I will assess the statements made, read the sources, and not be tied to one side or the other. As the person I was replying too was spouting the same tired old lines, spouted by generations of others regardless of their veracity, indoctrination is an apt term, and I stick by it. It has nothing to do with objectivity but rather accurate assessment.



Enjoy the games.

[Burning Water]

90. I checked back over what I wrote.

You seem to have read what I said very carelessly. I said nothing about justifying anything by "The Palestinians did it, too". Nothing. Only a serious reading comprehension problem, or a total disregard of the facts can give that interpretation of what I said. Even then it is a stretch.

What I said was that th Israelis have the right to defend themselves. And that now that they have withdrawn from Gaza, they can hold the PA responsible and take off the goddamn gloves.

[WhiteTara]

30. have you ever heard of the Balfour Plan?

You might want to look up how the state of Israel was formed and what happened to the Palestinians from 1947 on. This is not a pretty picture and perhaps Israel should try to be a better neighbor.

[Burning Water]

33. But Israel is formed now,

and perhaps if the Arabs stopped trying to drive it from the neighborhood, it could afford to be a better neighbor. Just a thought.

[WhiteTara]

39. maybe if they would be better neighbors, they would

be accepted much better. Bully's are always hated.

[Zhade]

42. Not every Palestinian is a terrorist.

Nice bigotry you're displaying there.

[Burning Water]

91. Excuse me.

Where did I say that every Palestinian was a terrorist? Seems like you are letting your own prejudices get in the way of your thinking.

[Englander]

95. Double-plus-good Double-think, Comrade!

Extra Rations Of Victory Gin For All Patriots!

Extra Rations Of Victory Choco-lite For All Right-Thinking Murk-Socs!

The Beneficially-Administered Terrorwists Will Be Vanquished!

The Unspeakably-Evil-Doing Euro-Arabians Shall Fall Before The Righteous Wrath
Of The Iron Fist Behind The Velvet Glove!

Onward To Victory!

;-) ;-)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak

[Burning Water]

97. WTH??

Can you trans late that into English please? Or even Spanish. I think I can beat my way through it with my handy-dandy S/E dictionary if I have to.

I think you were trying to be insulting, but I am curiously unmoved as I have no idea how. Thanks.

[Englander]

99. You'll need a Newspeak dictionary.

I'm British, so satire is a natural reaction for me when I see
absurdist rhetoric, & the claims you made would certainly qualify
as such. The link I provided might help in any attempt to make sense
of the attempt at ridicule, I can't say if it would, but if it went
completely over yer head, then that's just too bad, I guess. All I was
saying is the attempts to use the Politics Of Fear, & the abuse of
language, reminded me of "1984". If you haven't read Orwell's book,
I think you should.

[Burning Water]

101. Yep, ridicule is

a great Brit tradition. Especially when they have no arguments to back up their absurdist positions. Thanks, I read 1984, and I knew what you were pathetically attempting to do. But I speak straight, not with New speak, or any other method to attempt to deceive. Although, I have been know to use both sarcasm and irony. You've been very helpful. Thanks

[LynnTheDem]

22. Ain't it tho.

And karma ain't done yet, not with Israel nor America.

[Abathar]

3. Israel can use their own words against them -

Hey, Hamas said they refuse to recognize Israel and won't negotiate with them.

Guess when it comes to money they take a different stance.
Hard to demand something from someone you have publicly announced doesn't exist.

[Burning Water]

8. I think I agree n/t

[MrPrax]

6. Oh actually...

The UN has said a lot, it's just Israel don't want to hear it (illegal occupation, the Wall, stay out of Jerusalem, etc) and prefers 'gaming' US public opinion in attempting to equate Israel's interests with those of the US.

Of course, when Americans start to question all this, is when this phoney pretext of 'security' will disappear, only to be replaced by another 'excuse'.

Dov Weissglas "..."is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to starve them."

Funny you have to dig to find this recent quote--wonder why? Oh I know, it makes Israel look no better than Hamas.

[Burning Water]

9. Yes, the UN

has said a lot, but none of it constructive.

When the Palestinians give up the right of return and the desire to turn Israel into an Islamic state and kill all the Jews or drive them into the sea, maybe the UN will have something constructive to say.

[MrPrax]

12. LOL...

Whatever...I think the Pallys have FAR more right to return to their homes than does some guy in London or NYC has to claim--what again?--their homeland?

LOL...

[WhiteTara]

31. how cavalier...when the Palestlinians give up

the right of return. Like do you even know what that phrase means? It means that the people who have LIVED on the land for the past several hundred years get to stand behind a wall and peer at their old homesteads. The Israelis seemed to be quite happy living in Europe until Hitler made their lives unlivable. I;'m not saying the Israelis shouldn't live there, but they have to remember they aren't the only ones around.

[Burning Water]

34. One side or the other has

to lose. I'm rooting for it to be the Palestinians. The area was nothing before the Jews returned. A few shepherds. Ruled by the Ottomans, then the British.

You are at least as willing to disregard the rights of the Israelis as I am the Palestinians, but don't get on your moral high horse. As long as the Palestinians are willing to sacrifice their own children like the ancestors that they falsely claim, the Phoenicians, did, then I can work up no sympathy for their plight.

Sorry.

[WhiteTara]

38. why? Why does someone have to lose?

Somehow we have to find another way in the world. And if you mean the Jews have brought nuclear weapons to the area as it now being something, I wish it were nothing. By the way, it was something before the Jews came. It was their home.

You know, I had great sympathy for the Jewish people, until Sabra and Shatilla. I worked in the news department and saw the raw feeds of the people hanging on the fences, murdered. After that, not so much. Years of watching the conflict from afar, even less.

The planet is dying at a rapid rate, we must turn our attention to the whole or we will all be dead. This is what we need to be focusing on, not starving people into submission.

[Burning Water]

41. "why? Why does someone have to lose?"???

Because one side want to destroy the other, and the other is determined not to be destroyed. They can't both get what they want. Therefore, one side has to lose. What's hard to understand about that?

Why are you afraid to face this issue?

[Zhade]

43. That's a bald~faced lie.

Polls consistently show that most Palestinians want all fighting to end.

[JudyM]

48. Hamas is sworn to the destruction of Israel.

[Zhade]

54. Duh. But Hamas does not speak for all Palestinians.

NT!

[Behind the Aegis]

69. They do now!

[Violet_Crumble]

72. So who's lying? The Palestinians who want peace or Hamas?

It's pretty clear that the stance of a govt does not always reflect the views of its population on all issues. If the Palestinian people are saying they want peace and Hamas is stating it doesn't want peace, then Hamas isn't speaking for the people when it speaks on that issue, anymore than Ariel Sharon reflected the views of many Israelis when he spoke publicly on Arafat's return from Tunisia at the begining of the Oslo Accords and said the only reason Arafat was returning was to create a Palestinian state, and Sharon was not going to let a Palestinian state happen....

Violet...

[Behind the Aegis]

76. Did I say someone was lying?

While it may be clear that the government doesn't speak for all of its peoples, it was very clear that the Palestinians voted Hamas into power. Now, if you look at the thread I started in I/P about the will of the Palestinian people wanting negotiations to take place and two distinct nations, then you would be correct (also, they voted for Hamas because of the corruption in Fatah...despite those that think it was just despite Israel and the US). However, that doesn't stop the constant bashing of Israel in this 'progressive' forum.

Personally, I think the people of Israel and the people of the soon-to-be Palestine want two distinct nations.

[Violet_Crumble]

79. You claimed Hamas was speaking for all Palestinians...

..when it came to Hamas's goal of destroying Israel, though I did spot that thread in I/P, so I may have misunderstood yr comment in this thread...

Just curious, but do you have a macro that inserts a line complaining about the constant bashing of Israel at DU and insinuating that DU isn't a progressive forum? It's just that it was a rather random comment that had nothing to do with anything I'd said in my thread...

Violet...

[Behind the Aegis]

82. No, I didn't.

I said Hamas was speaking for all Palestinians, which they are, as the democratically elected government. However, it doesn't mean it is the "will of the people." My other thread shows that.

I have no macro. What about you? Do you have one that allows you to post on nothing in DU other than I/P issues, what you perceive as anti-Muslim issues, or certain posters? I just find it curious as you are not Palestinian, Muslim, or Arab.

[Violet_Crumble]

84. What's with the nasty attitude, bta?

I'm trying to have a civil discussion with you and would appreciate it if you could do the same. You clearly don't have any clue as to what and where I post on DU as I post on many issues, so can you please try to keep the hostility to a mininum? All I did was point out that the comment you made had nothing to do with what you were replying to...

on edit: As you don't know whether I'm Arab, Muslim or Palestinian or anything else, and I don't see what difference it makes to any discussion here what I am, I'm still scratching my head wondering why it matters what religion or ethnicity someone in this thread is...

Violet...

[Behind the Aegis]

86. you tell me...you seem to know me better than I know myself.

I find this a little humorous. You do enjoy telling me what I do and don't know. Also, why can you make assertions about my 'civility,' but you can say, "Just curious, but do you have a macro that inserts a line complaining about the constant bashing of Israel at DU and insinuating that DU isn't a progressive forum?" and that is a 'civil' response?

[Violet_Crumble]

88. I have absolutely no idea...

And I don't recall ever acting as though I know you better than you know yrself. Remember, I gave you the courtesy of accepting what you said you thought about the ports contract, whereas you informed me that I was wrong about what I thought when I voiced my thoughts on it...

Seriously. I admitted that I might have misunderstood one of yr posts in this thread, but you totally ignored that and continued to argue as though I hadn't said it. That's what I'm talking about, bta. Also, you did complain about the constant bashing of Israel at DU and insinuated that DU isn't a progressive forum when you said: 'However, that doesn't stop the constant bashing of Israel in this 'progressive' forum.' so seeing I repeated what you'd said yrself, it's a bit of a stretch to turn around and claim that's not what you think...

Violet...

[Wordie]

100. Does George Bush speak for you, bta? eom

[Behind the Aegis]

102. as much as he speaks for you.

[Wordie]

104. Of the popular vote, Hamas won 44%; Fatah won 42%...

(the seats were a different matter, because the Fatah vote in many districts was split). It doesn't seem to me that the Palestinians themselves agree with Hamas' policies, vis a vis the existance of Israel.

Despite Hamas win, Palestinians want peace with Israel

Mon Jan 30, 2:15 PM ET

RAMALLAH, West Bank (AFP) - ...A survey conducted within days of the Islamist group's landslide win in the parliamentary election showed 84 percent of Palestinians want a negotiated peace agreement with Israel.

And 86 percent said they want the moderate
Palestinian Authority president Mahmud Abbas to remain in his post when the radical movement forms a new government.

Perhaps more importantly in the wake of growing international pressure, nearly three-quarters want Hamas to drop its call for the destruction of Israel, said the survey by the Ramallah-based Near East Consulting institute.

However, rather than backing Hamas's tactics towards Israel, nearly three out of four (73 percent) respondents said they believed the radical party should "change its position on the elimination of the state of Israel".

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060130/wl_mideast_afp/mideastpalestinian

It seems to me with results like these, Israel should be looking for creative solutions to reach the Palestinians, not punish them, no matter who their government may be. (Note that there is a much more recently conducted Haaretz poll, with similar results: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/685129.html )

I sure wouldn't want to be held responsible, or suffer negative consequences, because of the stupid policies of GWB, and I'm sure you wouldn't either.

[Behind the Aegis]

105. I posted that article.

Unfortunately, the Palestinian people are now being represented by Hamas, which to this point, has not yielded to international wishes or the wishes of her own people. So, why must Israel supply them with the much needed money to fund Hamas' campaign to destroy Israel, even if it is not the campaign of 66% of the Palestinians?

Personally, I'd like to see Israel give the money to the Red Crescent.

[Wordie]

106. Self delete: posted in wrong place.

[Wordie]

107. Why? Because not to do so strenthens the position of the extremists???

That seems to me to be a very good reason.

Do you really think it's a great idea to put the Pals in the position of seeking more aid from Iran and other groups whose views may be even more hardline than those of Hamas? Israel should not take steps which make it even harder for the Palestinians to stand on their own, because without US aid either, they will be forced into the arms of the extremists.

And I agree with some of the other responders to this thread: it's not Israel's money, so to withhold it also is an ethical mistake on Israel's part. But the Red Crescent idea might work.

Come up with a creative solution, Israel! Please!

And btw, the poll I excerpted in my post is actually a different one from the one in your earlier thread (I did reference yours, too), and if you notice, the results were even more emphatic: the Palestinians, in electing Hamas, were not voting for the destruction of Isreal, and want negotiations to continue.

[Behind the Aegis]

109. And...

If Israel gives the money to Hamas they are 'funding' those who have called for her destruction. I can already see the posts about how Israel created her "victim" status by giving money to those who clearly hate her.

Wordie, Israel is often in the "damned if she does, damned if she doesn't" category. As for creating extremists, there are almost none with a more hardline position than Hamas.

As I said, the money was collected from the Palestinian people, make sure they get it. But, that doesn't mean handing it over to Hamas. If Hamas wants to change its tune about destroying Israel, then the money can go to them.

[pelsar]

110. and yet they want to keep on killing israelis.....

80 percent wanting to see the 14-month intifada, or uprising against Israeli occupation, go on.

64 percent support suicide bomb attacks against the Jewish state.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=25745
_______________

so do they want to live in peace with israel or do they not?.....who to believe and when....

there is a very reasonsable explanation for the contradiction in the polls....unfortuantly its very cultural specific....which in turn, is usually translated as racist (since it doesnt confrom to the westerns liberal visions of what should be...)

[Burning Water]

93. They do now n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

58. And successive Israeli leaders were sworn to destroying...

..any chance of an independent Palestinian state. But that doesn't mean that during these times many Israelis, just like many Palestinians, have wanted peace...

Violet...

[Burning Water]

92. But the people

that they have freely selected to be their leaders don't. That's faar more significant than any poll.

[Andromeda]

112. Maybe the Palestinians didn't have a good choice...

but if 66% of the people want peace, they're not going to get it from Hamas.

[WhiteTara]

47. face what issue?

that Israel wants to wipe the Palestinians off the face of the map so they can have the land? That Palestinians lived on the land long before it was Israel and that the Palestinians have the right to live too? That issue? or the issue that the people of Palestine are so filled with despair that they blow themselves up along with others in public.

I am sure that you are a good human and it sounds as though this issue touches your life everyday, where it doesn't mine. My beliefs are strictly intellectual rather than experiential.

My only hope for all the people of that region of the world learn to live together because they are both there.

[Burning Water]

96. The issue that

the Palestinian leaders have never disguised their desire to commit genocide by wiping Israel off the map. Either they must give up this foul dream, or Israel must be destroyed. That is the issue. We can only pick one side, or the other.

As for the despair the Palestinians feel, well, I'm sure that it is real. However. That gives them no right, no excuse, and no justification to kill innocent men, women, & children. Furthermore, the fact that they are willing to sacrifice their own children to do it is so morally repulsive that it outweighs any right that they might have on their side.

[Colorado Blue]

60. You realize, of course, that Sabra & Shatilla was a massacre

committed by the Arabs? Here's some background from the Lebanese point of view:

http://www.cedarland.org/damour.html

http://www.cedarland.org/war.html

It would be a shame if you lost all your sympathy for the Jewish people because of a terrible incident in a terrible war.

[Violet_Crumble]

67. Sabra and Shatilla was a tragedy, but the Jewish people werent responsible

I know the other reply to yr post attempts to blame The Evil Arabs for those massacres, while totally ignoring that the massacres were carried out because Ariel Sharon allowed the militias into the refugee camps, knowing full well what would happen, and that the whole thing wouldn't have happened if Ariel Sharon had not invaded Lebanon in the first place...

But Sabra and Shatilla shouldn't make anyone lose sympathy for the Jewish people. That wasn't done in their name, and many were as horrified by what happened as you were. There was a documentary on telly last night about Ariel Sharon and there was footage of the aftermath of the massacre that were so distressing I couldn't keep on looking. But there was also footage of the outrage it caused in Israel, where over 400,000 Israelis protested in what was at the time the largest protest Israel had ever seen. They knew full well the responsibility Sharon had for what happened, and it was good and compassionate people like those protesters, rather than those who would have fallen prostrate at Sharon's feet, praising him for how hard he was with the Arabs, who should earn everyone's respect, imo...

Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

59. Gosh. Nothing like some stereotyping to pass the hours!

Yr post is absolutely disgusting and you should go and educate yrself that there are real human beings caught up on both sides of this conflict instead of willfully demonising an entire group of people. Oh, and learning just the most basic stuff about the I/P conflict wouldn't go astray either...

As for that comment about the area being nothing before the Jews returned, just a few shepherds - doesn't that strike you as being a bit of a foul way to look at history? Just because societies weren't white and European didn't mean they didn't exist. Use that same sort of comment about other indigenous populations like Australian Aboriginals and you'd rightly get labelled a bigot...

Violet...

[Burning Water]

94. No stereotyping

I admit that the Palestinians are real human beings, and even that they have suffered terribly. That's what makes it tragic. But so are the Israelis.

And I do know something about the I/P history. I just see it differently from you, and of course, all opinions are equal in today's modern world, aren't they? :sarcasm:

Here's the thing: The Israelis do not wish to commit genocide upon the Palestinians. The Palestinians on the other hand (some of them, OK? But they are the ones in control right now) do wish to kill all the Jews or drive them into the sea and destroy the state of Israel. The very definition of genocide. These people (the genocidal ones, that is) think Hitler had the right idea, and in fact in WW2, wasn't the Mufti of Jerusalem a big Hitler fan? yes, I believe that he was.

Why do the Palestinians hold the world record for refugee status?? I would suggest that it is because of their leadership, for which they are responsible.

But don't call me a bigot, ma'am, because I am not on the side of killing people, or driving them into the sea, to correct a half-century old "wrong".

[NJmaverick]

4. It's not Israel's money to keep

Then again, it rightful ownership has never stood in the way of Israel's other plans. I could understand Israel's concerns, but stealing money from the PA isn't the answer.

[High Plains]

5. Why shouldn't Israel steal the Palestinian's money?

Israel already stole their land.

I'm waiting for Israel to renounce violence.

[Jim Sagle]

10. "We don't exist? Fine, neither does your tax money." Works for me.

[Behind the Aegis]

11. LOL!!!

:rofl:

[Zhade]

44. Yeah, punishing Palestinian klds rules!

Dissapointing ~ i thought you were more compassionate.

[Behind the Aegis]

50. I guess it is a funny as punishing Israeli kids, no?

:eyes:

[Zhade]

55. I find neither to be a laughing matter, actually.

it's wrong for kids to be made to suffer, period. I believe you understand that, hence my dissapointment.

I mean, Sagle posts at LGF, so no surprise he laughs this off, but I'm used to more compassion from you.

[Behind the Aegis]

71. I agree with you about the children.

I see this as no different than the boycotts and divestment crap Israel faces. The only difference...Israel is not calling for the Palestinians to be "pushed into the sea." Besides, if Hamas refuses to recognize Israel, why should they all of the sudden recognize they are collecting taxes? Do they think those taxes are are being collected by the Great Oggly-Moogly?

I am surprised you find that I have compassion, to hear others here, the very fact that I support Israel, I must be an Arab-hating Islamaphobe!

[Jim Sagle]

52. And I thought you were as well.

But you see no problem with slamming Israelis for withholding money from a gang of thugs who vow to eliminate their country.

[Zhade]

56. Please, show me where I "slammed Israelis".

Go ahead, look - you won't find it, because that didn't happen. It's a fabrication on your part.

The reality is that my post didn't even mention Israel, period, and my anger over this issue is directed at OUR government.

Take your lame attempt to paint me as an Israeli-basher elsewhere, like maybe your haunt at LGF - it's not working here.

[Jim Sagle]

111. You can get as cute as you want in saying you didn't slam Israel,

but the whole thread is about Israel, Hamas, and the taxes. You took the side of the would-be exterminators and I took the side of their intended victims.

[Zhade]

114. On the contrary ~ I took no side.

That's another lie on your part.

[Dutch]

37. lol

:thumbsup:

[JudyM]

49. That was my reaction, as well.

[wellst0nev0ter]

14. The Very Fact Israel Can Control Palestinian Tax Monies

just shows what a seriously depraved situation this is.

[Colorado Blue]

62. It isn't really - the two economies are actually closely

entertwined. Taxes are collected on the Israeli side, on goods being sold on the Palestinian side, etc. I think there are similar arrangements in the EU.

That said, once the Palestinians have their own state they'll have more independence. But that all depends on peaceful resolutions; it can't occur in an atmosphere of violence and threat.

Things got very f***ed up by the intifada. Before then, the Palestinian economy was one of the fastest growing in the world. People drove back and forth to work and there was and probably still is, an underground economy as well, barter, trade, and certainly friendship.

The real enemy here is violence, has been since the early 20th century. I'm convinced that 99% of the people really just want to live their lives. But there's been so much violence. It's truly heartbreaking because it's prevented people from from solving their problems, which are truly regional in scope.

It's sort of a microcosm, actually - we're all confronting the same situations, especially environmental challenges, but also cultural issues, which we could overcome except for that single, devastating element: war.

That's the problem we must all work to confront, and hopefully defeat.

[gaspee]

23. I'm not sure

I've been hanging around DU for a couple of years, but I never post anything, which is why I have such a low post count.

Anyway, I'm not sure why, but whenever Israel is discussed, we get people supporting Israel no matter their actions or outcome. The people who are slightly critical of Israel are immediately attacked as anti-jewish or anti-israel. Now, they're not very critical, usually, but the slightest criticism results in an entire brigade of people coming to israel's defense.

What I don't get is why? Are they paid by people to do it (long history of paid (insert groups) activists on the web to sway public opinion,) are they israelis, are they Americans of Jewish heritage and religion? Or have they bought the argument pushed by our government that Israel is right no matter what.

I might just get an education here, but this is the way I see it--

Undisputable facts: Israel was created in 1948 on land which had formerly been under British Mandate. That land was Palestine-- land which was formerly part of the Ottoman Empire but the League of Nations gave it over to British Mandate after WWI. This is indesputable pure fact.

Israel was a nation created on land where people already lived. (Kind of like the US) And those people didn't like it. Would you? Did the Native Americans?

I'm not going to dispute the Jewish people's right to a homeland, or that particular stretch of homeland. But if we're going to go around taking and giving land from or to indigenous groups, I know of a few tribes who might want Manhattan, or say, the natural gas fields in the Rockies.

No matter what side of the conflict you are on, you can't say the above didn't happen.

And when people point that out, they tend to get attacked around here.

And before I'm attacked, let me say, I'm not on either side of the conflict. I don't like what goes on daily in the ME, but I can see both sides of the problem and I understand the Real Politik of foreign relations in the Middle East. I don't have to like it, but gnashing my teeth and wailing 'Why can't we all get along' isn't any kind of solution.

My solution would involve nonviolent protest by the palestinians. Find a Ghandi. There's got to be one among the Palestinians. Refuse to work. Sit ins. Shut down Israel economically by being an immovable force. Let the court of world opinon work for you instead of against you, but wtf do I know?

Now that I've rattled on, I'm going to get the tl;dr treatment from most, I'm sure...

[Zhade]

45. You're correct.

Welcome, btw.

[llmart]

46. I've seen the same thing on DU.......

you must not criticize Israel for anything. One poster was even banned from participating on DU because one of his many posts suggested that Israel isn't squeaky clean in this whole ME problem.

We on DU are no better than those we criticize for not allowing freedom of speech if we can be banned for, God forbid, actually thinking Israel could be wrong in anything.

I'm tired of Israel being the 51st state.

[Colorado Blue]

61. I'm sure as hell not being paid. But with respect, your

history is missing a few points - one of the most important being, this was a homecoming, not an invasion, Jerusalem has been a majority Jewish city for ages, and Jewish people have lived in the region continuously, and nearby, for thousands of years. Most Israeli Jews, in fact, are of Middle Eastern descent.

Also, if people flock to Israel's defense, it's because we're a very small community - global population of Jews = 13 million, which, sadly, is 2 million less than in 1930. Israel is important to us, many of us have friends and relatives there, have suffered losses there. It's personal.

And, we believe in the right of the Israeli people to keep breathing - that includes the Jews, the Bedouin, the Arabs, the Druze, the Christians, the Buddhists, and all the other citizens of this vital and creative and embattled little nation.

The saddest thing of all, is that the Palestinians have been trapped because the Arab states won't recognize or make peace deals with Israel, that would enable her to feel sufficiently comfortable to drop her guard, and nor will they help create rational and fair solutions to the problem of compensating and resettling the Palestinians in the camps since 1948. Originally there were probably about 700,000; now there are 4.5 million.

Of course this means also recognizing the Jewish refugees as well - some 900,000 people from throughout the Middle East, which is now practically judenrein. They also, lost everything - but at least they had a place to go. The Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, for example, are still fighting for the basic right to hold a job.

Before the intifada, you saw no wall, no checkpoints; people drove back and forth and the two economies were - and are - closely entertwined. But in fact, since Oslo, the violence has soared and it's just ruined life for so many people. It's heartbreaking.

[Violet_Crumble]

66. Agreed. Yr posts aren't paid for...

Sadly you honestly believe the 'Israel Is Completely Innocent and The Evil Arabs Are Responsible For All The Ills Of The World' stuff in yr post...

For anyone reading, the poster I replied to is still touting the fake line about the Arab states being intransigent while poor innocent Israel wants nothing more than a fair and just peace AFTER being corrected with facts in a thread yesterday...

Also, that posters idea of a fair solution for the Palestinian refugees is NOT to listen at all to their wishes, to ignore the fact that in the past there have been attempts on both sides to resettle some, not only in Israel, but in neighbouring states. What that posters idea of a fair resolution is is for the refugees to be made citizens (against their will if necessary) anywhere but in Israel...

This one sided blaming Israel for nothing and the Arabs for everything isn't a true reflection of what is a pretty complex issue, and should be seen as being the subjective and one-sided stuff that it truly is...

Violet...

[Colorado Blue]

108. OK, just a few clarifications, history-wise:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/100/maps/mandate.html
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_overview.php

I couldn't agree more that nonviolence is the correct path. Indeed, I think the world would be very surprised at what would occur, if people would bury the hatchet.

The region is poor. People need jobs, education, money, places to lead creative lives. All of this could blossom - and blossom rapidly - once it was agreed to stop the attacks, agree to mutual recognition, secure and appropriate borders with no further victimization.

I believe you'd see a transformation within a couple of decades. I don't think the majority wants violence, but only a place to be a person.

Here's a poem, read by the author when Shimon Peres, Yitzak Rabin and Yasser Arafat were awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1994 - before the Intifada claimed so many lives, broke so many hearts:

Wildpeace

Not the peace of a cease-fire
not even the vision of the wolf and the lamb,
but rather
as in the heart when the excitement is over
and you can talk only about a great weariness.
I know that I know how to kill, that makes me an adult.
And my son plays with a toy gun that knows
how to open and close its eyes and say Mama.
A peace
without the big noise of beating swords into ploughshares,
without words, without
the thud of the heavy rubber stamp: let it be
light, floating, like lazy white foam.
A little rest for the wounds - who speaks of healing?
(And the howl of the orphans is passed from one generation
to the next, as in a relay race:
the baton never falls.)

Yehuda Amichai 1924 - 2000, who fought in so many wars

Maybe, we'll see his vision.

[mom cat]

28. Don't worry about the sky falling: the oceans are rising,

and they will meet in the middle somewhere. Just hope that that "somewhere" is lower than the elevation of your home.

[WhiteTara]

29. and yours n/t

[JustDoIt]

32. As they should,

Israel has abused the Palestinians for years

[JudyM]

51. Oh yes, WTF are you talking about. They've been attacked and defending

their land. Their malls and school busses are bombed as a steady course of violence from Hamas and yet you see them as being abusive when they try to hold land as a buffer -- land that they took after being attacked on all sides.

[JustDoIt]

53. I understand

that Jewish people in America don't like very much.

But it's something that they are going to have to deal with.

[Colorado Blue]

63. Really? Once again, let the Jews just eat it? That's what

Chamberlain said, funnily enough.

Along with lots of other people, throughout history.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Colorado Blue]

65. Oh for heaven's sake - what a bogus stereotype. I can't

believe I'm seeing this on a progressive board.

Respectfully, that sounds like something out of medieval Europe.

In any case - even if every Jew in America were a millionaire - do you think that compensates for the misery in the Middle East? What about the Holocaust then? Were people happily counting their shekels while their relatives burned?

Shame.

[Andromeda]

68. Your remark is deeply offensive...

You are perpetuating a derogatory and dangerous myth that Jews are running the country (because they have all the money, right?) and that we are all powerless victims of Zionist demagoguery.

Comments like yours are more appropriate at an Aryan Nation convention where you can commiserate with your buddies.

[Swede]

35. Why would Israel give money to Hamas?

Hamas will have to renounce violence.

[Violet_Crumble]

57. Because it's tax revenue that doesn't belong to Israel...

And Israel signed an agreement to do a monthly transfer of the revenue. The revenue doesn't belong to Israel, so it's wrong to talk about it as though it's Israels money in the first place...

Personally I think both Hamas and Israel should renounce violence, but I can't see that happening from either side any time soon...

Violet...

[Behind the Aegis]

70. Because, silly...

...Israel should fund its own demise! That way people can still blame Israel for its own destruction. :sarcasm:

[Violet_Crumble]

73. bta, it's not Israel's money...

People are confusing tax revenue collected on behalf of the Palestinians with actual Israeli funds. When it comes to the revenue that belongs to the Palestinians, Israel has a moral and legal right to transfer it if Israel continues to collect it. On the other hand, if the money was Israels, I would be opposed to Israel being expected to fund the PA....

Violet...

[Behind the Aegis]

74. well, VC...

...where will that money go? To the government (Hamas) or the Palestinian people? So, do you really think it will fund the Palestinian people or Hamas? Remember, that many in the government haven't been paid. Do you think they will give the monies to the people or themselves, thereby funding the very group wanting to destroy Israel?

[Violet_Crumble]

75. It doesn't matter where I think it will go...

It is NOT Israels money to give or withhold. It is Palestinian tax revenue and Israel should either stop collecting it or continue to transfer it to the PA. Why can't you see the difference?

Violet...

[Behind the Aegis]

77. Why cannot you see the difference?

If they send it, it goes to Hamas, bound to destroy Israel. If it is not theirs 'to give or withhold,' then then there is no argument. They (Israel) doesn't have to give the money to anyone, nor does it withhold it from the PA.

[Violet_Crumble]

78. Um, I can see the difference between PA tax revenue and Israeli funds...

I think it's you that isn't seeing the difference. Israel is under an obligation to continue the monthly transfer of Palestinian tax revenue. It can't just continue to collect it and keep it. Why can't Israel just stop collecting it? Is there a problem with that solution?

Violet...

[Behind the Aegis]

80. can you really see the difference?

You would seem to support a continuation of financial support of a government, newly elected, to destroy Israel.

Let them stop collecting. It would change very little.

[Violet_Crumble]

81. I just explained several times that I see the difference...

Israel tranferring Palestinian tax revenue is not Israel giving financial support. The money belongs to the PA, not Israel. I'm not understanding why this simple thing is so hard to understand...

Violet...

[Behind the Aegis]

83. who is the PA now?

Is that really that hard to understand?!

[Violet_Crumble]

85. It's not relevent...

There was no condition attached to the agreement Israel signed agreeing to transfer Palestinian revenue that it was conditional on any democratically elected govt being one Israel approves of. Israel is obligated legally to transfer that money, and attempts to portray this revenue as being Israel funding the PA are way off the mark...

Violet...

[Behind the Aegis]

87. sure...OK...

So, the neo-Nazi party seizes the Aussie government through legitimate elections. There is an agreement that the taxes collected by New Zealand are to go to the Aussie government. The newly elected Aussie government has pledged the destruction of NZ. Should they still give that money to the new government? Or maybe NZ should wait until they knew that their destruction was not a "party platform?" :shrug:

[Violet_Crumble]

89. Okay, that was cute, but doesn't really work....

Actually, it's the other way round. NZ is committed to the destruction of Australia, which is why they send crap actors like Russell Crowe over here and try to fob them off as Australians..

Though I understand the point yr trying to make in yr analogy, which is basically why should Israel continue to transfer Palestinian revenue to the PA if it is worried that Hamas will then turn around and try to destroy Israel, the point is that this revenue is not Israeli revenue and is not Israel's to demand who to transfer it to. Israel and its supporters had a habit of claiming that Arafat was out to destroy Israel, even though the PA had long ago officially acknowledged the existance of Israel. Hamas is different in that it is still talking that talk, but the chances are that even if it acknowledged Israel's existence (not sure that it's a likelihood unfortunately) any acknowledgement would be ignored. Israel has a few other options than withholding Palestinian revenue it collects, and I think it should explore those other options, rather than just hold onto the funds...

Violet...

[pelsar]

98. i dont know.....

i havent posted here because i really cant decide:

it is the palestenains money...and it makes me a bit uncomfortable holding back on giving someone their money...


of course if the idea is that they will then use it to kill me....maybe its not such a hot idea to give it too them:

morality vs reality (which may cause a worse morality....)

[Colorado Blue]

103. I share your concerns. I'm conflicted also. It's a very

confusing situation, no black and white here for sure.

[Andromeda]

113. ...

:rofl:

[Burning Water]

115. I don't know why

Israel should subsidize those that are trying to destroy it. I don't even know why they should collect taxes for them.