How can any "progressive" in this forum support the NRA???

[KansasVoter]

First off, I notice some of the most extreme vocal people in this forum seldom post on other DU forums about real progressive issues. I wonder of some or many of them are only here because there is a gun forum on a liberal web site.

Until someone pointed me to this forum I would not have believed there are "progressives" on the DU that loved the NRA so much.

If, for example, I was extremely anti-abortion and was a liberal, which I think is not very common, I would still NEVER join an anti-abortion group that would donate money to defeat 90% of the democrats in office. I would never join a anti-abortion group that would help defeat good democrats that were trying to implement other progressive causes. Doing so would totally counter the whole purpose of being a liberal. If you do that you must be a SINGLE ISSUE voter and it would mean anti-abortion or pro-guns is the MOST IMPORTANT issue to you and health care, gay/lesbian, helping the needy, etc did not matter as much as the ONE issues you support.

I could not support an organization that would trash Obama or issue warnings about a democrat that I think cared more about this country than any GOP member ever has. And I could not support a group who mostly contained members that also hated those same democrats. Why would I send money to a group that did everything possible to remove liberal democrats from office over ONE SINGLE ISSUE that I care about.

I would work to convince democrats that they needed to be against abortions, but I would never donate money to an organization that was against 90% of the progressive candidates because they were pro-choice.

The NRA supporters here are doing exactly this. Supporting the NRA when they know they are against 90% of the democrats in office. How this is OK with anyone is beyond me. So I guess if we had GREAT liberal that agreed with everything the Democratic party stood for, except he/her was against conceal and carry, you would still be OK with the NRA donating money to his right wing, anti-health care, anti-gay marriage, pro-war opponent because he wanted to allow you to carry concealed weapons. What a joke! Talk about being a single issue idiot!!!

And keep in mind, even with the NRA being against 90% of democrats we took the house and senate in 2008, and kicked ass in 2010. So maybe you need to be donating more money to make sure NRA supported candidates (Republicans) get elected to you can make sure the supreme court has more GOP judges in it.

So continue to support the NRA and try to tell me you are a liberal progressive supporter. No one except you and your NRA buddies will believe it anyway!

[baldguy]

1. They can't.

The NRA only supports Democrats who aren't really Democrats.

[TheWraith]

20. You mean like Howard Dean? He was endorsed by the NRA. Eight times.

Had a perfect A rating from them, too.

[KansasVoter]

21. I said 90% of the Dems are opposed by the NRA! Can you read??

[TheWraith]

22. First, I'm pretty sure I wasn't speaking to you.

Secondly, you seem to be saying that Howard Dean can't be a "real" progressive Democrat because of being aligned with the NRA.

Another person who's apparently not a "real Democrat" in your mind: JFK, who was an NRA lifetime member and gave them a speech thanking them.

Out of curiosity, if you saw a Republican who supported the ACLU, would you say that they weren't a "real Republican," or would you respect them for wanting to actually protect the constitution?

[DissedByBush]

28. Only those where are against Second Amendment rights

There is a LONG list of Democrats supported by the NRA.

All a Democrat has to do to be supported by the NRA is to support our rights.

[Abq_Sarah]

307. 90% huh?

Well, I would suggest that "90%" need to get their heads screwed on right and stop trying to strip citizens of constitutional rights while pretending to be Democrats.

[baldguy]

25. The last time Dean ran for anything was 2004; the NRA endorsed Bush that year.

'Nuff said.

[GreenStormCloud]

33. Dean wasn't our candidate that election.

Kerry's RKBA record was horrible. In the Senate he voted for every gun-control measure that came to a vote, whereas in Texas Bush had signed a shall-issue bill.

[baldguy]

52. Bush was the biggest subverter of the Constitution ever. It was "just a god-damned piece of paper".

Remember?

Any organization that really cared about Constitutional rights would've run far away from him & every other Republican, and done everything in their power to defeat every GOPr on the ballot at every level. Instead they ENDORSED him! The NRA spent it's time and money supporting the worst President in history & spreading lies about Kerry - just like every other freedom-hating RW group did.

[GreenStormCloud]

89. The NRA cares only about RKBA, and nothing else.

Bush, in 2005, signed the "Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms" act, which Kerry had previously opposed, and which Obama voted against.

The NRA is a single issue organization and takes no stand on other issues.

[baldguy]

101. And that's why they are destructive to real democracy.

They support the subversion of the Constitution in favor of a single, narrowly defined "right" at the expense of literally every other legal protection it's supposed to offer. (The phrase "throwing the baby out with the bath water" comes to mind.) In their choice of candidates, they advocate an America where everyone has a gun - but have no rights to free speech, religion, assembly, the press, free & fair elections, fair trials open to the public, Congressional oversight of the Presidency, or the right to dissent against the govt - an America which would be unrecognizable to every reasonable person.

They are, quite simply, fascists supporting the same old, tired fascist policies.

[GreenStormCloud]

112. There are many single issue organizations.

NARAL is one. I NARAL dangerous to democracy? I could easily name a bunch of single issue organizations, but you get the idea. The NRA is far from being alone. With the existance of many different single issue groups, they tend to balance each other out.

Further, the NRA is not against "free speech, religion, assembly, the press, free & fair elections, fair trials open to the public, Congressional oversight of the Presidency, or the right to dissent against the govt", they simply are silent on those issues. Silence is not opposition.

You throw that term "facists" around rather easily. The real facists of WWII were solidly in favor of gun-control.

[baldguy]

131. Abortion rights is a "single issue"? Since when?

It encompasses the rights equal protection, adequate medical care, free speech, and the individual right to privacy - from both the govt and other individuals. Abortion is a single issue only to those who don't recognize it as a right.

As for fascists & guns - They just love 'em.

Mussolini's Italy had no specific, wide spread gun control laws. Anyone could & did have them. And Nazi Germany really only restricted Jews from owning them, along with many other things - not because they had guns but BECAUSE THEY WERE JEWS! Duh! The average German was perfectly happy with Nazi gun laws - because they weren't effected by them.

The NRA is a fascist org because they support fascists.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

169. Acutally much the same could be said about any single issue organization

NARAL, NRA, MADD, and others

[baldguy]

172. But the NRA intentionally supports those who would restrict the rights of others.

That claim can be made for few other supposedly single-issue orgs.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

173. As does any single issue organization since by their nature that is all they care about.

I understand your position, its just that the world is a bit more complicated than the binary mantra you are putting on it.

Dean is a great democratic leader. He was also pro RKBA. The positions are not mutually exclusive.

Daley is an absolute embarrassment to the party.

[baldguy]

178. The NRA has a binary mantra - Guns: Yes or No.

That's a hallmark of a conservative mindset.

Other progressive orgs realize the world is more complicated, and they'll refrain from supporting candidates with whom they agree on a particular issue if that candidate opposes the wider progressive agenda.

And again: Dean's last campaign was in 2004 - The NRA supported BUSH that year, remember?. If they had any cred advocating individual freedom, human rights & supporting the Constitution before that (and they didn't, considering their recent history) they lost it then, totally & absolutely.

[Straw Man]

220. "Dean's last campaign was in 2004 - The NRA supported BUSH that year, remember?"

Dean was not the Democratic candidate that year; Kerry was. Remember?

[baldguy]

227. Did they or did they not support the fascist Bush in 2004?

I rest my case.

[Straw Man]

249. "I rest my case."

What exactly is your case? That the NRA does not support Democratic candidates who have abysmal (by NRA standards) records on gun rights? No argument from me there. But you started by invoking the name of Howard Dean. If I didn't know better, I'd swear you were suggesting that the NRA endorsed Bush over Dean. But we both know that that didn't happen, right?

[slackmaster]

274. It's the duality of Man, the Jungian thing

[Euromutt]

292. Abortion rights are as much a signle issue as gun rights

Personally, I'd be inclined to say that both are single issues with multiple aspects. Whether you want to call either that, or instead call them a collection of a issues centered round a single thing is pretty academic, in my opinion.

Abortion is a single issue only to those who don't recognize it as a right.

Since I view it as a single issue, and consider it a right, that assertion is demonstrably false.

Mussolini's Italy had no specific, wide spread gun control laws. Anyone could & did have them.

Ever hear of the Public Safety Act of 1931? Mussolini implemented a licensing and registration scheme (among other things), and then used it to confiscate firearms possessed by known opponents to his regime (primarily socialists and communists). That was after the Public Safety Act of 1926 had already established the Opera Volontaria per la Repressione Antifascista (OVRA), a secret police force tasked with investigating and prosecuting crimes against the state, and a Special Tribunal for hearing cases. Both organizations were given a remarkable amount of discretion in deciding what constituted "crimes against the state" (of course, in good totalitarian doctrine, the party was regarded as being the state, thus any action hostile to the Fascist party specifically was, ipso facto, a crime against the state; later totalitarian regimes extended this by adding that the state and the people were the same thing, thus any enemy of the party must logically not only be an enemy of the state, but also an enemy of the people).

And Nazi Germany really only restricted Jews from owning them, along with many other things - not because they had guns but BECAUSE THEY WERE JEWS!

And socialists, communists, trade unionists, anyone the Nazis considered unerwünscht (lit. "undesired," more freely "undesirable").

More to the point, isn't that exactly the complaint directed at the bulk of gun control laws in this country, to wit that they serve not to eradicate private ownership of firearms, but rather, restrict it to those people the powers that be deem worthy of gun ownership? As has been pointed out ad nauseam in this forum, Jim Crow-era gun control laws in the South were really about disarming blacks, "not because they had guns but BECAUSE THEY WERE BLACKS!" QED.

The NRA is a fascist org because they support fascists.

By that logic (accepting for the sake of the argument however you define "fascist"), we can dismiss the United Nations and the International Committee for the Red Cross as "fascist organizations" as well.

[PavePusher]

133. Use caution...

in how you swing that double-edged sword.

I have yet to see you hold other organisations to the same standard.

[east texas lib]

142. "They are, quite simply, fascists supporting the same old, tired fascist policies."

That is the finest summation of the anti-RKBA position ever! Thank you!

[baldguy]

146. #131

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x325680#325932

[Callisto32]

250. Real progressives, Real democracy, Real romans.

What a ridiculous non-argument.

[Francis Marion]

263. Dear Lord.

They're the National RIFLE Association. Not the National Right to Assembly Association. Not the Freedom from Unreasonable Search and Seizure Association. Just how in the hell does affirmation of the Second Amendment "support the subversion of the Constitution"?

To affirm one of the Bill of Rights, I must damage the remainder? Explain?

To affirm the Bill of Rights is to subvert the Constitution. That argument makes perfect sense only by 1984 standards, no?

And here's one I have always wondered about: why doesn't the ACLU carry the load when it comes to defending the Second Amendment rights of the people? Maybe if they did, the NRA could get out of politics and focus on competitive shooting, which is its real mission in life.

Your last sentence is also most puzzling:
If the NRA behaved like good fascists, National Socialists, they would enact stringent gun 'control' to disarm the people and cement one-party rule. (Incidentally, why would senator Dodd have the Nazi Weapons Law translated into English, a contention by JPFO?) Forget about owning a gun as a private citizen under a fascist system. There is nothing fascist about the NRA. In a 'real democracy', you are going to hear a lot of viewpoints which are disagreeable to you, but people have every right to say them. Don't begrudge the NRA for supporting the Bill of Rights and politicians whose words and votes do likewise. If you posit a democracy, you have to accept that its manifestation will depart from your preferences as often as it agrees with them. If you want a political echo chamber, then fascism makes a far better one than a democracy.

[onehandle]

65. But after his last election he endorsed the assault weapons ban.

Bye, bye A rating.

[Statistical]

76. Exactly. A candidates rating is directly related to posistion when it comes to RKBA.

Crazy. Imagine that. That a special interest group would rate candidates according to the special interest the group is founded on.

[onehandle]

80. So we should appeal to every Republican front group?

Stormfront.org, what is thy bidding?

[Statistical]

83. What Constitutional right does Stormfront protect? Oh yeah none. n/t

[GreenStormCloud]

93. Don't you get tired of calling pro-RKBA members racists? N/T

[onehandle]

96. I didn't say that.

Nice try.

[GreenStormCloud]

100. You thinly veiled it. You have made that same veiled accusation many times. N/T

[SteveM]

279. Perhaps. But then there are punks in this forum who would agree. nt

[safeinOhio]

123. Yep, that is why the NRA would

support the Grand Wizard of the KKK over over anyone that called for NICS checks on private sales.

[Travis Coates]

125. You DO realize the the NRA supports NICS right?

At least the other antis are honest about it.

[safeinOhio]

127. Only voluntary, not mandatory.

Which would be a loop hole one could drive a truck threw.

[Travis Coates]

Oh NOEZ the gun show loop hole

I take that back I do have some text. Tell me how you would implement background checks on private sales W/out using the word registration? Also please tell me how this would affect criminals who get less than 2% of their guns from gun shows anyway?

[safeinOhio]

132. Oh nooze it's another

one of those people that think there should be nothing in the way of criminals obtaining handguns with no questions asked. I think the polls show that even a majority of NRA members are in favor of mandatory checks on private sales of handguns.

[Travis Coates]

135. Please go back and read my edited post NT

[safeinOhio]

147. Made you edit it, Huh?

If 2 % of the criminals get their guns from private sales, you also have to figure that almost all gun crimes are committed by criminals making those few guns involved in lots of crimes.
I'll really make your head spin. I see no violation, or have the courts, to registration of handguns, if done at the state level. There would be no need for federal registration than there is now on handguns purchased from a dealer. If so, how?
If I could stop 2% of criminals from getting handguns, that's be great.

[Travis Coates]

148. IOW you can't do it W/out registration

done deal. no

Registration is not legal in Colorado anyway

[safeinOhio]

157. Then how do you buy a gun

from a FFD? There is a record of that and it is not called registration. Nothing stopping the same for private sales.

[Travis Coates]

160. I buy my guns used out of the paper

in order to track any sale I made my firearms would have to be on paper. they aren't therefore your law is un enforceable

[Callisto32]

251. Through which one could drive a truck.....

[Travis Coates]

258. FFLs are required to do a backgroundcheck any time they sell a firearm

whther or not they're at a gun show private citizens are not allowed access to NICS so they can't do a background check wether or not they're at a gun show. Where's the loophole?

[Callisto32]

265. I was just correcting the "preposition at the end of a sentence" thing..

It drives me batty to see it in print.

[AtheistCrusader]

295. For good reason.

[one-eyed fat man]

26. So you mean

No true Democrat would own a gun?

The only "real Democrats" are Michael Bloomberg, Paul Helmke, and Sara Brady fighting to save the Republic from the scourge of those ignorant working rubes out in fly-over country.

"Real Democrats" point to Cruikshank as reasoned restriction on the Second Amendment. In this 1876 decision, the Supreme Court ruled that protections of the Fourteenth Amendment did not apply to the actions of individuals, but only to the actions of state governments. Thus, the federal government could no longer use the Enforcement Act of 1870 to prosecute actions by paramilitary groups, private militias such as the White League, the White Camellias, or the Ku Klux Klan.

Colfax Massacre

In fact, Cruikshank and the Slaughterhouse decisions crippled civil rights enforcement by the Federal government by gutting the Privileges and Immunities provision of the Fourteenth Amendment until 1966 (United States v. Price; United States v. Guest) when the Court vitiated Cruikshank.

Cruikshank has also been cited for over a century by supporters of restrictive state and local gun control laws such as the Sullivan Act. That 1876 decision paralyzed the federal government's attempt to protect black citizens by punishing violators of their Civil Rights and, in effect, shaped the Constitution to the advantage of the Ku Klux Klan. And as history amply demonstrates, The Klan was the "action wing" of the Democratic Party for almost a 100 years, and not just in "solid South." Until the eve of World War Two, Klan membership and influence in state politics in Indiana was far more pervasive than in any of the 11 states that actually made up the Confederacy.

I, for one, am glad to be shed of those "REAL Democrats.!"

[safeinOhio]

126. Can you show us where the NRA

ever threw out a member that was a spokesperson for the KKK or Storm Front?

[one-eyed fat man]

191. I don't know.

I don't recall ever seeing and skinheads, Aryan Brotherhood, or those types at an NRA event. I can't say they have ever thrown one out, nor can I say they ever let one in.

NRA’s by-laws require the association to protect the Constitution and the individual right to arms “for the common defense of the Republic” and “To train members of law enforcement agencies, the armed forces, the militia, and people of good repute in marksmanship and in the safe handling and efficient use of small arms.”

I have also never heard of an NRA convention ending in a celebratory "cross burning" like a Democratic Party convention has, either. You keep telling us the NRA is a front for the Republicans, but the Klan had always been loyal Democrats!

After seeing a special screening at the White House of THE BIRTH OF A NATION, an enthusiastic President Wilson remarked: "It is like writing history with lightning, and my only regret is that it is all so terribly true.....a presentation of history that would transform every man in the audience into a good Democrat!"

The segregation of Federal government, starting with the Treasury Department and the Post Office began in Wilson's administration, under his direction.

D.W. Griffith's Birth of a Nation


The Democrat National Convention of 1924 was host to one of the largest Klan gatherings in American history. Dubbed the "Klanbake convention" at the time, the 1924 Democrat National Convention in New York was dominated by a platform dispute surrounding the Ku Klux Klan. A minority of the delegates to the convention attempted to condemn the hate group in the party's platform, but found their proposal shot down by Klan supporters within the party. As delegates inside the convention voted in the Klan's favor, the Klan itself mobilized a celebratory rally outside. On July 4, 1924 one of the largest Klan gatherings ever occurred outside the convention on a field in nearby New Jersey. The event was marked by speakers spewing racial hatred, celebrations of their platform victory in the Democrat Convention, and ended in a cross burning.

Democratic Convention, New York City, 1924

[beevul]

200. As soon as you show us brady cleansing thier org of republicans. N/T

[Straw Man]

262. More canards...

Can you show us where the NRA ever threw out a member that was a spokesperson for the KKK or Storm Front?

How would they even know? Do you think the NRA does background checks on members? It's like AARP, for chrissakes: You send them a check and you get a magazine.

If you mean on the NRA Board of Directors, I imagine the sheet-wearers would have a problem with the number of Jews at the table, like past NRA president Sandra Froman.

This sounds a lot like "Why won't those moderate Muslims denounce the terr'ists?"

[GreenStormCloud]

31. If they are a member of the Democratic Party, then they are Democrats.

That is by defination. Tough for you if you don't like them, but they are Democrats. The NRA will support the candidate with the best RKBA record, regardless of party.

[KansasVoter]

62. But 90% of the time they are right wing GOP who oppose most of the liberal party.

[Travis Coates]

73. That's be cause 90% of Dem candidates

didn't learn their lesson in '94

[KansasVoter]

81. SWo you still support the NRA wen they oppose the Dems? So you are a SINGLE ISSUE voter.

[Travis Coates]

92. Gun Control is a dead issue

And I think most progressives know that. I know a boat load of people who voted for O on Tuesday and went right out on Wednesday and started buying guns. I made damn sure I had my Mini14 (sorry, I’m just not an AR kinda guy) before the election and DW and I started stocking up on ammunition in ’07.

I think the gun rush of ’08 sent a very clear message to all but the most obtuse “progressives” I think that was the second amendment in action.

In my mind the true progressive value is trusting people with the means to defend themselves and not passing laws designed to harm the law-abiding that have zero effect on criminals.

Why don’t you just come right out and say “I hate guns and I hate gun owners”

[KansasVoter]

98. A boat load started buying guns?? What was stopping them before?

And anyone who "stocks up" on ammo is a scary person. How dumb, like Obama or anyone ever was close to banning anything. That type of thinking is what makes people worried about CCW and consider people gun nuts.
Stocking up on ammo. That sounds like something only a survivalist would do! It would make me laugh if it was not scary as hell.

[Travis Coates]

103. stocking up on ammo

Given that the same box I bought in '08 for 9.97 (Walmart) now costs 12.97 I'd say stocking up was a wise choice. Also several of my favorite calibers are rarely available these days because of the gun rush apparently stocking up was wise.

I also live in a place where I can expect snow 11 months a year. It's also common sense where I live to look out the window to see if there are any bears in the yard before walking out to get the paper in the morning. If you think I'm a survivalist because I stock piled ammunition you'd shit if you ever saw my pantry.

I am sure people like me do scare you, I can feel your fear in every post what I don't think you realize is that you're around armed people every day you just don't know it

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Travis Coates]

124. Just like you didn't mean you were planning to defraud the NRA

Yes I stock piled because I wasn't sure if O was dumb enough to try a gun grab. I think that the gun rush gave Obama some serious pause. I think he watched gun and ammunition sales skyrocket and realized he'd have another '94 on his hands if he tried anything. I think that was one of the purist uses of the 2nd amendment I've ever seen

[safeinOhio]

130. I thought bears hibernate in the winter.

I'm armed and ok with armed people around me if they are legally eligible to own or carry. My problem is with the ease that any criminal in my state can buy a hand gun at a garage sale with no questions asked.

[Travis Coates]

137. Bears don't sleep straight through

And we're not under 6 feet of snow all year round. If it warms up during the winter or we have a chinook they will come out and look for food. in the fall the become hyperphagic and will eat anythingincluding their own young if they can't find any other food. they've already shot two bears this year who broke into homes for food

My problem is with the ease that any criminal in my state can buy a hand gun at a garage sale with no questions asked.

I saw a shot gun for sale at a garage sale once should have bought it. BTW got any actual stats on how many crime guns come from garage sales?

[safeinOhio]

153. Nope, only I bought a P22

at one. That was all the proof I needed that it could be done with no questions asked. Because there is no way to trace sales of private sales there are no valid statistics. The only statistics available are the ones from questioning inmates that committed gun crimes. We all know they would never lie about where they got their guns. Can you show me any other statistics that didn't come from inmates?

[Travis Coates]

163. So , you're ok W/ YOU doing it just not ME doing it.

All animals are created equal but some are more equal than others

[friendly_iconoclast]

290. Did you destroy it? Resell it to a FFL dealer? Submit the s/n to the cops for tracing?

If you did any of these things, good for you.

If not, then like the other commenter on this subthread said, "some animals are more equal than others" ...

[PavePusher]

136. How do you define "stocking up on ammo"?

I can easily go through 3-4 hundred rounds of .45 ACP in a single range session. I like to buy in bulk, because it's cheaper, and when it's on sale for the same reason. So at any given time I may have 3-5 1000 round cases of .45. I own 8 different calibres of firearms, and try to stock ammo accordingly.

Am I "stocking up on ammo?

Am I "scary as hell"?

[X_Digger]

272. "like Obama or anyone ever was close to banning anything" -- he campaigned on it.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=6960824&page=1

Obama to Seek New Assault Weapons Ban

"As President Obama indicated during the campaign, there are just a few gun-related changes that we would like to make, and among them would be to reinstitute the ban on the sale of assault weapons," Holder told reporters.

[AtheistCrusader]

297. Hard to support people attacking our civil rights.

When the NRA endorses X politician, they are not rating that politician on their conservativeness, or their progressivism, or their position on abortion, or social security or anything else.

They rate them on one issue alone, support, or opposition to RKBA, as it is commonly understood by law, and by the people. Take the advice or leave it as you will.

You sound like a republican hurfing about Planned Parenthood, for being a successful advocacy group, because it is effecive, not because it is 'good' or not, but on a different topic. You're as irrational as the liberals among us that hurf about the SC decision on corporate donations in campaigns, that ignore that the ruling, in the same breath, protected LABOR UNIONS TOO.

[Travis Coates]

64. I guess Ken Salazar is no true Scotsman either

and what about Bill Richardson (D) New Mexico? I'm sure he has some sugar on his porrige too.

[safeinOhio]

134. How about David Duke?

[Travis Coates]

141. Wasn't awareDuke was running as a progressive NT

[safeinOhio]

158. Not what I'm saying.

I'm saying he would get the endorsement over some one like Kerry.

[Travis Coates]

161. Show me the NRA endorsement of Duke NT

[Katya Mullethov]

203. I talked to that dude once , nice enough guy

Moscow PD , Moscow , Idaho .

[rrneck]

246. Hmmmm.

Y'know, all this suddenly sounds familiar. We have another one that claims to own guns and shoots regularly (something that sounds esoteric and classy), but rails against other guns for no apparent reason and offers no specific reasons for his position. Mostly he just trolls flaimbait.

Could it be? Naaaaaaahhh...

[friendly_iconoclast]

284. "We need to control what *other* people do with guns, MY guns are perfectly fine!"

Darn that pesky Fourteenth Amendment!

[Katya Mullethov]

298. Is it engraved ?

Or does it look more "like something a terrorist should be carrying" ? (To paraphrase a recovering phudd .)

[Euromutt]

261. Bill Richardson's not really a Democrat?

That would be news to me.

[Travis Coates]

288. He's not

After all no true democrat would put sugar on his... wait, I mean support RKBA

[Onceuponalife]

2. Well, Michael Moore is a long-time NRA member

Is he progressive enough for you? I guess it depends on where and how you were raised, if hunting is important to you. And then there are the constitutional absolutists. Me, I have no use for the NRA, I hate them and have never owned a gun and don't plan to. But I think it's possible to be a liberal NRA supporter.

[baldguy]

5. Michael Moore is also extremly critical of the NRA, it's positions and it's policies

He's a dues-paying member so he can get the RW propaganda they only send out to the generally uninformed rank & file.

[KansasVoter]

8. No it is NOT. They try to remove people from office that you 'SAY' you support!!!

You are hurting the cause for ONE issue? Wow, what is wrong with you?

[beevul]

308. Assuming those things are true...

"They try to remove people from office that you 'SAY' you support!!!"


"You are hurting the cause for ONE issue? Wow, what is wrong with you?"

Assuming those things are true:


If you support gun control, you ENABLE and SUPPORT them being subject to the nras influence.


Look in the mirror. What is wrong with YOU?

[DrDan]

3. have to agree . . . K&R

[TPaine7]

4. How can any "progressive" in this forum not support the Bill of Rights???

That's the real question.

While I've never sent the NRA one penny in donations (though I was tempted after their Katrina legal victory) I understand those who support both them and say the ACLU.

"Progressives" who don't support the BOR are the real mystery.

[KansasVoter]

6. Beyond belief......

I support the 1st amendment and still do not think people should be able to slander, threaten or yell "fire" in a crowded theater.

And if ANY IDIOT said that they should be able to yell 'fire' in a crowded theater because they supported the 1st amendment would you be OK with that?

Wow, you have not put 10 minutes of thought into this whole topic have you??

[TPaine7]

10. You don't support using First Amendment rights to hurt people?

Good for you!

I don't support using Second Amendment rights to hurt people. And neither does the NRA.

Or perhaps, having spent great deal of time pondering the evidence to come up with your "argument", you can point to where I, (or the NRA, for that matter) support murder, armed robbery, or assault with a deadly weapon.

[KansasVoter]

11. Bull shit, the NRA does not give a shit about anyone getting hurt unless it hurts they image/cause.

[TPaine7]

14. You're almost too silly to debate.

Every time you hear about slander, libel, conspiracy, extortion, murder for hire, spying against the US, illegal orders or any other speech crime do you call for further speech regulations?

Do you blame the ACLU for not caring about anyone getting hurt by misuse of speech?

You don't understand your own analogy. All your arguments are belong to us.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KansasVoter]

23. Are you are too uninformed to debate.......

You have NO other posts except to this forum. No GD, no GDP. So let me know your liberal causes you support. LOL.

[TPaine7]

30. You are wrong on that as well as on just about everything else,

So let me know your liberal causes you support. LOL.

I won't be justifying myself to you.

I notice, however, that you don't address my arguments. The best you can do is a personal attack, free from any accompanying logic. It's sad, really.

[KansasVoter]

42. Please link to your current GD or GDP posts. I would love to read them!

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KansasVoter]

58. LOL........sure, you don't need to explain yourself. And you have NO POSTS.

[spin]

99. I'll present a challenge to you ...

Obviously people who have an interest in or knowledge of firearms are attracted to the Gungeon. Some favor gun ownership and some do not.
But first I'll answer your accusation that many people who favor firearms only post in the Gungeon.

I personally find the Gungeon far more interesting and entertaining than many other areas of DU. I do post in GD or in Religion/Theology (as I have some interest in mythology and ancient religions). But I have to admit that I am no expert in politics or economics, so often I chose merely to read the posts in these sub forums to gain knowledge.

I could post my theories and opinions in many forums, but I realize that often I would merely expose myself as a person with little knowledge on the subject. Often I post a question in hope of learning more about a subject.

I post most often in the Gungeon because while I don't consider myself an expert on firearms, forty years of shooting have allowed me to gain some knowledge and experience on the subject.

My challenge:

I would suggest that you open your mind and actually do some serious research on firearms. I would not expect you to change your viewpoint, but at least you could contribute interesting and knowledgeable posts that would support your side.

Find some responsible person who owns firearms and see if they would be willing to take you shooting or go to a range and rent a firearm. Talk to shooters at the range and ask them why they enjoy shooting. Be open and non confrontational, merely attempt to learn more about those who enjoy the sport.

Better yet, take a concealed carry course in your state. Find out what those who carry concealed are taught.

After, report back with your findings and your opinions. You may be very critical, but at least your posts will be based on actual experience and should lead to some very interesting discussions.

[KansasVoter]

211. I trap shoot monthly. I just hate the NRA and CC.

[spin]

285. Hatred of the NRA I can understand ...

why do you hate CC?

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GreenStormCloud]

36. Let us know when you take over DU and make the rules. N/T

[KansasVoter]

68. Oh, you will know when I do. It will be obvious!

[GreenStormCloud]

95. I won't hold my breath until then. N/T

[KansasVoter]

118. Please do!

[PavePusher]

140. Hahahahaha!

Megalomania... it's not just for Glenn Beck anymore....

[Callisto32]

253. Maybe this is the only place where any even remotely interesting discussion takes place.

Are almost all of my posts in here? Yeah.

I tried the other forums, and they were a bore. I got sick of agreeing with other people all the time. The heck is the point of a discussion where everybody is on the same side.

They won't let me post in the topic forums, or whatever they are called, because I have not given them money.

I'm sure I'm not the only one.

[spin]

75. I understand your hatred ...

but you are allowing it to color your ability to reason.

The NRA supports responsible ownership of firearms. Their gun safety programs have averted many tragic injuries and deaths. They support truly reasonable gun control laws such as the NICS background check.

They also support law enforcement activities to combat crime and criminal misuse of firearms and provide firearm training to law enforcement.

[safeinOhio]

212. I think most would agree with you on all

of those points.
They also support right-wing religious fanatics, people that want to take away other liberties like the right to vote for Senators, people that wish to attack other countries that have not attacked us or anyone else, people that support the rights of corporations over the rights of real people, folks that want to take away all safety nets and social programs and politicians that spout racist ideas. I think most would also have to agree with that too.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

171. So you support the gun control with its racist and classist roots that are ongoing today.?

That sounds real progressive of you

[safeinOhio]

218. I would agree that there are some racist

and classist roots to some gun control. I would hope you could also agree that there are many racist that support removing all forms of gun restrictions, reasonable and not so. So, you support some of those racist organizations that have a high membership in some of those pro gun groups. That sword cuts both ways professor.

[baldguy]

7. Someone much smarter than me once said that the Constitution is not a suicide pact.

That's the progressive view, anyway. Conservatives may differ. But then, conservatives think the Constitution allows torture, wiretapping & sanctioning the assassination of American citizens who are too troublesome for the govt.

[TPaine7]

12. You think America is committing suicide by honoring the Second Amendment! n/t

[KansasVoter]

13. The passion of these people is to be armed and CCW, nothing else.

[cleanhippie]

85. Who are "these people" you are talking about?

[beevul]

207. Wow, how far off can you be?

"The passion of these people is to be armed and CCW, nothing else."

No, the passion of the people you refer to, is to be LEFT THE FUCK ALONE on the gun issue, for fucks sake.

Respect that its a right, and leave it alone.


That too much to ask?

On edit: People with attitudes such as yours where guns are concerned, have been poking people in the eye with a sharp stick - people with attitudes like mine where guns are concerned - for DECADES.

Get that? Decades.

What we want, is for you and yours to KNOCK IT OFF.

[baldguy]

19. Considering the unnecessary death toll - Yes.

[TPaine7]

37. How many gun deaths are unnecessary?

Are the police shootings unnecessary? Should we disarm the police?

Are the self-defense shootings unnecessary?

Are the suicides unnecessary? If I want to kill myself, is it your prerogative to stop me by force?

Are you consistent? Do you support banning anything that causes more "unnecessary" deaths than guns?

[MicaelS]

155. So what you're saying is that you

Only want law enforcement and the military to have guns, right? Is that what you're telling me?

The same law enforcement and military that is often accused, (right here on this very same website), of being racist, sexist and homophobic.

[baldguy]

162. Point to where I've said that.

[MicaelS]

165. I'm asking you to clarify your position

Do you want to ban all guns? Ban only handguns?

[GreenStormCloud]

39. Actually, I have heard conservatives say that.

They ususally say it when they are wanting to skirt parts of the Constitution that they don't like. Just as you want to skirt parts of it that you don't like.

[baldguy]

116. Thomas Jefferson first voiced this idea.

"...(a) strict observance of the written law is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to the written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the ends to the means."

Lincoln thought that he "could arrest, and detain, without resort to ordinary processes and forms of law, such individuals as he might deem dangerous to public safety."

And Justice Arthur Goldberg on the USSC said that "while the Constitution protects against invasions of individual rights, it is not a suicide pact".

Try again.

[pipoman]

97. Yep, and pitbulls are a scourge on society

owners should be criminally liable for their vicious dogs, mandatory to carry $1 million in dog liability insurance, both owners and dogs should be licensed and registered if allowed at all...not even a vague constitutional right to own a vicious dog breed.

[baldguy]

107. Ignorance rears it's ugly head - AGAIN!

In my state (NY) - every legal dog is registered by the state. (And if they're not registered, they're usually picked up & destroyed.) And, yes I pay a little extra on my homeowners insurance because I have a dog. And, yes I'm responsible for my dog's actions - whether or not she's under my immediate control at any particular moment.

The same could not be said if I owned a gun.

[spin]

108. Responsible pit bull owners raise good natured dogs ...

Responsible gun owners present no danger to society.

[pipoman]

110. my post was sarcasm

but you might want to tell it to baldy..

[Euromutt]

293. Alberto Gonzales? Jack Bauer? (Actually, Justice Arthur Goldberg)

The Bush administration has indeed engaged in such activities as detention without charge or trial, warrantless wiretapping, "National Security letters," "extraordinary renditions," waterboarding, etc. and that is almost exactly the justification they used, namely (to quote the Wikipedia page) "that constitutional restrictions on governmental power must give way to urgent practical needs."

Okay, so it wasn't actually Gonzales who said it in those words. How about Supreme Court Justice Arthur Goldberg, in the court's opinion in Kennedy v. Mendoza-Martinez (1963, see: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=372&invol=144)? Both appellees, Mendoza-Martinez and Cort, essentially dodged the draft by going or staying abroad (Mendoza-Martinez by heading off to Mexico in 1942, Cort by remaining in the UK in 1951 instead of returning to the US). As a result, both were stripped of their United States citizenship. The Court found the law under which they were stripped of their citizenship was unconstitutional, but only on grounds of lack of due process. Justice Goldberg used the phrase "for while the Constitution protects against invasions of individual rights, it is not a suicide pact"* to opine that, in principle, it would not be unconstitutional per se to strip draft dodgers of their citizenship; the problem was that the stripping was done by executive fiat rather than by court order.

Is that really the argument you want to associate yourself with?

* - The entire paragraph reads:

We deal with the contending constitutional arguments in the context of certain basic and sometimes conflicting principles. Citizenship is a most precious right. It is expressly guaranteed by the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution, which speaks in the most positive terms. The Constitution is silent about the permissibility of involuntary forfeiture of citizenship rights. While it confirms citizenship rights, plainly there are imperative obligations of citizenship, performance of which Congress in the exercise of its powers may constitutionally exact. One of the most important of these is to serve the country in time of war and national emergency. The powers of Congress to require military service for the common defense are broad and far-reaching, <372 U.S. 144, 160> for while the Constitution protects against invasions of individual rights, it is not a suicide pact. Similarly, Congress has broad power under the Necessary and Proper Clause to enact legislation for the regulation of foreign affairs. Latitude in this area is necessary to ensure effectuation of this indispensable function of government.

[safeinOhio]

143. Most of us progressives do support

the Bill of Rights and believe there are reasonable restrictions on our liberties. Yelling fire in a crowded theater. Slander. Warrantless searches while chasing a felon into a home. The difference is "reasonable". Because I'm for mandatory background checks on private handgun sales, I'm lumped in with Brady supporters on this forum. Because of that I'm now moving more and more to the middle.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

176. With what you have posted in this thread you have convinced most of us that you may want more than

background checks. Dispute that as you wish, but a lot of us have seemed to reach that conclusion.

Liberals and Progressives generally support the rank and file, rather than an oligarchy of the rich and powerful. Gun control at its heart and as personified by the NYC and Chicago laws is clearly racist and classist. Not sure how any one could support it.

[beevul]

224. But do you understand what it is?

"Most of us progressives do support the Bill of Rights"

You say you support the bill of rights, yet the first thing you say immediately after that, is about "reasonable" restrictions on our liberties.

The bill of rights, is a laundry list of restrictions - the thing government is forbidden from doing. You do understand that, dont you?

At some point, "reasonable" on our liberties, mean that the restrictions on government really arent restrictions on government. Do you acknowledge that?


Not to mention, is anyone that disagrees with "reasonable" restrictions on our liberties, by definition "unreasonable"?

"Because I'm for mandatory background checks on private handgun sales"

The federal government was never granted the power to require such a thing.

[Callisto32]

254. No law can't possibly mean no law.

It can mean everything else BUT that, obviously, but not what it says.....

I wonder if people saying that realize how stupid they sound.

[katandmoon]

9. K&R

[Paladin]

15. K&R

Very well put, KV.

[Bitwit1234]

16. HEY go over to the CNN homepage

they show these ding bat crazy republicans with guns and the "big splash" they are making. But guess what the posts are so against these republicans and tea bags they (CNN) only let 14 people post and they closed comments. They always do when the comments are against republicans. Gee I guess they think people are as stupid as the news readers and CEO's over at CNN. With the whole of the media kissing republican butt I guess they think that's what people want. THEY DON'T EVEN REALLY READ THE MESSAGE THEIR POSTERS POST.

[NRaleighLiberal]

18. I am another who doesn't believe that they can. N/T

[Ozymanithrax]

24. Depends on how the word Progressive is defined...

If people believe in a general progressive agenda, single payer health care, regulation of industry and banks, withdrawing from America's Empire/Hegemony,separation of Church and state, expansion of the social welfare net then they believe in progress and are progressive. They just believe that you should also be able to go armed.

If you define progressive as excluding the belief that In order to maintain a well regulated militia the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, then they are not progressive.

But do we really want to decide things that way?

Disclaimer: I don't agree with the current courts interpretation of the second amendment. However, that doesn't mean people who agree with it aren't progressive.

[KansasVoter]

32. Did you read anything???

You cannot be progressive and support the NRA! The actively CAMPAIGN against good, progressive dems because of ONE ISSUE only.

[GreenStormCloud]

41. They are indeed a single issue organization. That's why they are so strong.

They are a place where pro/anti choice, pro/anti union, pro/anti environment, etc, can agree on being pro-RKBA, and agree to not discuss any other issues. By being so intensely focused they achieve great power.

[KansasVoter]

43. But still lost in 2006 and 2008.

[GreenStormCloud]

51. In some election their endorsed candidate won, in some they lost.

There were many elections in those years. I don't feel like checking all of the thousands of elections to develop a scorecard.

[Travis Coates]

71. Heller, McDonald one more state went permitless carry

Iowa went shall issue . what ,exactly, have we lost?

BTW NRA life member Even wore my NRA hat to vote

[Statistical]

74. Only if the goal was to support Republicans.

Gun control legislation has been becoming much more restrictive over the last two decades both on federal level and on state level.

Given the NRA doesn't give a flying crap about Republicans getting power they have accomplished their goal which is support of RKBA.

It doesn't matter who controls the congress as long as they don't support Unconstitutional restrictions on that right.

One example of the NRA winning:



NRA really only got into politics seriously in late 80s.

Before:


After:


It wasn't just the NRA but a whole host of RKBA groups, and a moderating in public opinion but it is hard to say they "lost".

[safeinOhio]

164. But the NRA was going to support the

1st Amendment, until they cut a deal. Pissed off a right winger.

http://angrywhitedude.com/?p=4702

The VP even said they were strong supporters of the 1st, until the deal was made.

[cleanhippie]

87. Well, that would make sense since the NRA is a one-issue organization.

[spin]

105. The NRA is a one issue organization ...

that issue is RKBA.

The supposedly progressive Democrats often the NRA doesn't support are opposed to or want to greatly limit RKBA.

The NRA also gives some conservatives low ratings because of one issue, RKBA, and their failure to support it.

[Ozymanithrax]

186. Yes, I read and I disagree. Actually Progressive is neither Democratic or Republican...

neither conservative nor liberal.

Teddy Roosevelt was a progressive, conservative, and an Imperialist, when President, a Republican.

People are complex creatures that can hold any number of mutually exclusive beliefs.

I believe people who are members of the NRA can also be progressives, just like gays can be Republicans. It doesn't make sense, but it is human.

[Recursion]

266. I am progressive and support the NRA. You fail.

I and people like me are doing our best to drag the Democratic party, kicking and screaming if need be, into a sane, informed, and Constitutionally-acceptable position on the right to keep and bear arms.

[GreenStormCloud]

27. The NRA supports Democrats too.

Democrats endorsed by the NRA since 2004
Mark L. Doumit,(D) Jim Hargrove, (D) Jean Berkey, (D)Brian Hatfield, (D) Brian Blake, (D) William 'Ike' Eickmeyer, (D) Joe Baca, (D) Mike Schneider, (D) Barbara Buckley, (D)Genie Ohrenschall,(D) Ellen Koivisto, (D) John Oceguera, (D) Jerry D. Claborn, (D)Richard D. Perkins, (D) Mo Denis, (D) David Parks, (D) James Alexander, (D) Gino White, (D)Wendy Jaquet, (D) Mike McGrath, (D) Jim Elliott, (D) Lane L. Larson, (D) Kim Gillan, (D) Paul Clark, (D)Brennan Ryan,(D)George Golie, (D) Bill Wilson, (D) John W. Parker,(D) Margarett H. Campbell, (D) Ralph L. Lenhart, (D) Gary Matthews, (D) Monica J. Lindeen, (D)Gary L. Forrester, (D) Jayne Mockler, (D) Larry Caller, (D) Keith Goodenough, (D) Ross Diercks, (D)George W. Bagby,(D)Marty Martin, (D)Ann Robinson,(D) *Mary Meyer Gilmore, (D) Bill Thompson, (D) Jim Matheson, (D)Mike Dmitrich, (D) Eli H. Anderson,(D)Laren "Larry" C. Livingston, (D) Carl Duckworth, (D) Brad King, (D)Linda Aguirre, (D) Marsha Arzberger, (D)Pete Campos, (D)Shannon Robinson, (D)Mary Kay Papen, (D)Phil Griego,(D)Patricia Lundstrom, (D)Dona Irwin, (D)Andrew Nunez, (D) Joseph Cervantes, (D)Pauline Ponce, (D)Thomas Swisstack, (D)Bob Hagedorn,(D)Lois Tochtrop, (D) Liane "Buffie" McFadyen, (D)Max Sandlin, (D)Nick Lampson, (D) Henry Cuellar, (D) Mark Homer, (D) Chuck Hopson, (D) Jim McReynolds, (D) Robby Cook, (D) Dan Ellis, (D)Patrick M. Rose, (D) John Mabry, (D) David Farabee, (D) James "Pete" Laney, (D) Mike Villarreal, (D) Kevin Bailey, (D) Dan Boren, (D) Jim Wilson, (D) *Jeff Rabon, (D)Richard Lerblance, (D)Susan Paddack, (D) Charlie Laster, (D) Mike Morgan, (D) Jerry Ellis, (D)Glen "Bud" Smithson, (D)Neil Brannon, (D) Mike Brown, (D)Joe Eddins, (D) Ben Sherrer, (D)Barbara Staggs, (D)Ray Miller,(D) Terry Harrison, (D)Paul Roan, (D) John Carey, (D) Dale Turner,(D) Bob Plunk, (D) John Young, (D) Danny Morgan, (D) Joe Sweeden,(D) Terry Hyman, (D) Raymond McCarter, (D)David Braddock, (D) James Covey, (D) Purcy Walker, (D) Abe Deutschendorf, (D) Roy "Butch" Hooper, (D) *Joe Dorman, (D)Lucky Lamons, (D) Darrell Gilbert, (D) John Auffet, (D) *Debbie Blackburn, (D)Rebecca Hamilton, (D)Al Lindley, (D) Mark Gilstrap, (D)Chris Steineger, (D) Jim Barone,(D) Anthony Hensley, (D) Henry Helgerson, (D) Doug Gatewood, (D)Robert Grant, (D) Bill Feuerborn, (D) Jerry Williams, (D) James Miller,(D) Bonnie Sharp, (D) Tom Burroughs, (D) Margaret Long, (D)Candy Ruff,
(D) Harold Lane, (D) Jerry Henry, (D) Sid Regnier, (D) Jim Ward, (D) Janice Pauls, (D) Dennis Mckinney, (D)Stephanie Herseth, (D)Jim Peterson, (D) Gil Koetzle, (D) Garry Moore, (D) Frank Kloucek, (D) David Sigdestad, (D) Dawn Jaeger, (D) Gerald Lange, (D) Richard Engels, (D) Mary Glenski, (D) Gary Stodelmon, (D) Dale Hargens, (D) Paul Valandra, (D) Thomas James Van Norman, (D) Mike Wilson, (D) David O'Connell, (D) Larry Robinson, (D)Joel Heitkamp, (D) Dorvan Solberg, (D) Lyle Hanson, (D)Joe Kroeber, (D) Ole Aarsvold, (D)Ralph Metcalf, (D) Arden Anderson, (D) Bill Amerman, (D)Pam Gulleson, (D) Collin Peterson, (DFL) Kent Eken, (DFL) Loren A. Solberg, (DFL) Tom Rukavina, (DFl) Anthony "Tony" Setich, (DFL) David Dill, (DFL) Paul Marquart, (DFL) Mary Ellen Otremba, (DFL) Al Juhnke, (DFL) Lyle Koenen, (D) Leonard Boswell, (D) John Kibbie, (D)Dick Dearden, (D)Eugene Fraise, (D) Michael Gronstal, (D) Greg Stevens, (D) Marcella Frevert, (D) Dolores Mertz, (D) Roger Thomas, (D) Dick Taylor, (D) Geri Huser, (D) Jim Lykam, (D) Philip Wise, (D) Kurt Swaim, (D) Paul Shomshor, (D) Ike Skelton, (D) Victor Callahan, (D) Jim Whorton, (D) Rachel Bringer, (D)Wes Shoemyer, (D)Terry Witte, (D) Wayne Henke, (D) Thomas Green, (D) Gary Kelly, (D) Mike Sager, (D) Terry Young, (D) Ray Salva, (d)Paul LeVota, (D) Curt Dougherty, (D) Al Liese, (D) Allen Icet, (D) Tim Meadows, (D) Ron Casey, (D) Wes Wagner,(D) Harold Selby, (D) Belinda Harris, (D) Frank Barnitz, (D) J.C. Kuessner, (D) Terry Swinger, (D) Mike Ross, (D) Randy Laverty, (D) Jack Crichter,
(D)Jim Hill, (D) Jimmy Jeffres, (D)Gene Jeffress, (D) Percy Malone,
(D) Ken Cowling, (D) Robert Jeffrey, (D)Randy Rankin, (D) Lenville Evans, (D) Jay Bradford, (D)Scott Sullivan, (D) Dewayne Mack, (D)Bob Mathis,(D) Dawn Creekmore, (D) Dwight Fite, (D) Janet Johnson, (D) Sandra Prater, (D) Jeff Wood, (D)Will Bond, (D) Preston Scroggin,
(D)David Evans, (D) David Dunn, (D) Wayne Nichols,(D)Leroy Dangeau,
(D) Bill Stovall, (D) Charles Ormond, (D) Travis Boyd, (D) Dave Obey,
(D)Roger Breske, (D )Robert W. Wirch, (D) Julie Lassa, (D) Terry Van Akkeren, (D) John P. Steinbrink, (D ) Amy Sue Vruwink, (D) Marlin D. Schneider, (D)Barbara Gronemus, (D) Jerry Costello, (D) Pat Welch,
(D)William Haine, (D)Gary Forby, (D) Jack Franks, (D) Mike Boland,
(D)Patrick Verschoore, (D)Careen Gordon,(D)Frank Mautino, (D)Lisa Dugan, (D) Michael Smith, (D) Gary Hannig, (D) Robert Flider, (D) Kurt Granberg, (D) Bill Grunloh, (D)Steve Davis,(D)Jay Hoffman, (D) Thomas Holbrook, (D) Dan Reitz, (D) John Bradley, (D) Brandon Phelps,
(D)Gene Taylor, (D) Bud Cramer, (D) Sanford Bishop, (D) Tim Golden,
(D)Michael S. Meyer Von Bremen, (D) Steve Thompson, (D) Valencia Seay, (D)Steve Henson, (D) Mike Snow, (D) Barbara Massey Reece, (D) Buddy Childers, (D) Bill Cummings, (D) Jeanette Jamieson, (D) Don Wix, (D) *Stephanie Stuckey Benfield, (D) Hugh Floyd, (D) R. M. Channell, (D) Curtis S. Jenkins, (D) Lee Howell, (D) Robert F. Ray, (D) Bobby Eugene Parham, (D) Jimmy Lord, (D) Dubose Porter, (D) Johnny W. Floyd, (D) Greg Morris, (D) Penny Houston, (D) Ellis Black, (D) Ron Borders, (D) Jay Shaw, (D) Hinson Mosley, (D) Allen Boyd,
(D) Will S. Kendrick, (D) Dwight Stansel, (D) Sheri Mcinvale, (D) Lincoln Davis, (D) Jim Cooper, (D) Bart Gordon, (D) John Tanner, (D ) Tommy Kilby, (D ) Jerry W. Cooper , (D ) Jo Ann Graves, (D ) Rosalind Kurita,(D) Roy Herron, (D ) John S. Wilder, Sr., (D ) Harry Tindell, (D) Dennis Ferguson, (D ) Jim Hackworth, (D ) George Fraley, (D ) Frank Buck, (D ) John Mark Windle, (D ) Jere L. Hargrove, (D ) Charles Curtiss, (D ) Mike McDonald, (D) Stratton Bone, (D) Michael L. Turner, (D ) Ben West, Jr., (D ) Curt Cobb, (D ) Joe Fowlkes,(D) Eugene E. (Gene) Davidson, (D) David A. Shepard, (D) John C. Tidwell, (D ) Willie (Butch) Borchert, (D) Mark L. Maddox, (D) Phillip Pinion, (D) Craig Fitzhugh, (D) Ben Chandler, (D) Dennis L. Null, (D) Joey Pendleton, (D) Walter "Doc" Blevins, (D) Johnny Ray Turner, (D) Ray S. JonesII, (D) Denise Harper Angel,
(D ) Charles Geveden, (D) Fred Nesler, (D) Frank Rasche, (D) Mike Cherry, (D) *J.R. Gray, (D) *John A. Arnold JR., (D) *James E. Bruce, (D) *Joseph E. "EDDIE" Ballard, (D) Gross Clay Lindsay, (D) *Jim Gooch JR, (D)Tommy Thompson, (D) Brent Yonts, (D) Dottie J. Sims, (D) Jody Richards, (D) Rogers Thomas, (D) Rob Wilkey, (D) Jimmie Lee, (D) James H. Thompson, (D) Steve Riggs, (D) Perry B. Clark, (D) Robert R. Damron, (D) Rick W. Rand, (D) Royce W. Adams,(D) Charlie Hoffman, (D) Arnold R. Simpson, (D) Mitchel B. "Mike" Denham, (D) John Will Stacy, (D) Carolyn Belcher, (D) Don Pasley, (D) Adrian K. Arnold,(D)Susan Westrom, (D) Harry Moberly JR, (D) Rick Nelson, (D) Ted "TEDDY" Edmonds,(D)Ancel Smith, (D) W. Keith Hall, (D) Charles "CHUCK" Meade, (D) Robin L. Webb, (D) Hubert Collins , (D) Tanya Pullin, (D) Rocky Adkins, (D) Baron Hill , (D) Craig Fry, (D) Patrick Bauer, (D) Thomas Kromkowski, (D) Scott Pelath, (D) Dan Stevenson, (D) Chester Dobis, (D) Robert Kuzman, (D) Joe Micon, (D) Sheila Klinker, (D) Ron Herrell, (D) Ron Liggett, (D) Tiny Adams, (D) Terri Jo Austin, (D) Scott Reske, (D) Dale Grubb, (D) Clyde Kersey, (D) Alan Chowning, (D) Phil Pflum, (D) Peggy Welch, (D) Jerry Denbo, (D) Dave Crooks, (D) John Gregory Frenz A, (D) Terry Goodin, (D) Robert Bischoff, (D) Markt Lytle, (D) Paul Robertson, (D) James Bottorff, (D) William Cochran, (D) Dennie Oxley, (D) Russ Stilwell, (D) Dennis Avery, (D) Trent VanHaaften, (D) Win Moses Jr., (D) Ted Strickland, (D) Kimberly Zurz, (D) Charlie Wilson (D) Marc Dann, (D) Kenneth Carano, (D) John Boccieri, (D) William Hartnett, (D) Derrick Seaver, (D) Todd Book, (D) John Domenick, (D) L. George Distel, (D) John Dingell, (D) John J. Gleason, (D) Doug Bennett, (D) Jennifer Elkins, (D) Matt Gillard, (D) Stephen Adamini, (D) Rich Brown, (D) John W. Drummond, (D) Glenn Reese, (D) Linda H. Short, (D) Thomas L. Moore, (D) NikkiI Setzler, (D) Gerald Molloy, (D) Kent Williams, (D) John Yancey Mcgill, (D) John C. Land III, (D) *E. Dewitt Mccraw,
(D) *Olin R. Phillips, (D) Walt Mcleod, (D) Mike Anthony, (D) Herb Kirsh, (D) Douglas Jennings, JR., (D) Denny W. Neilson, (D) James A. "JIM" Battle, JR., (D) C. Alex Harvin III, (D) Jimmy C. Bales, (D) Thomas N. Rhoad, (D) Harry L. Ott, JR., (D) Bill Bowers, (D) Mike Easley, (D) Beverly Perdue, (D) Roy Cooper,(D) Mike Mcintyre, (D) Marc Basnight, (D) Scott Thomas, (D) Clark Jenkins, (D) Robert Holloman, (D) Cecil Hargett, JR., (D) R. C. Soles, JR., (D) Charles Albertson, (D) A. B. Swindell, (D) Tony Rand, (D) Daniel Clodfelter,
(D) David Hoyle, (D) Walter Dalton, (D) Joe Queen, (D) Martin Nesbitt, (D) Bill Owens, JR, (D) Bill Culpepper, III, (D)Alice Underhill, (D) Russell Tucker, (D) Arthur Williams, III, (D) Edith Warren, (D) Marian Mclawhorn, (D) William Wainwright, (D) Dewey Hill, (D) Edd Nye, (D) Joe Tolson, (D) Jim Crawford, (D) Marvin W Lucas,
(D) Douglas Yongue, (D) Ronnie Sutton, (D) Lucy Allen, (D) Earl Jones, (D) Alice Bordsen, (D) Pryor Gibson,(D) Lorene Coates, (D) Hugh Holliman, (D) Walt Church, (D) Jim Harrell, (D) James Black, (D) Bob England,(D)D. Bruce Goforth, (D) Rick Boucher, (D ) Joe Manchin, III, (D ) Darrell McGraw, (D) Alan Mollohan, (D) Nick Rahall, (D) Jeffrey V. Kessler, (D) Robert H. "Bob" Plymale, (D) John Pat Fanning , (D) Earl Ray Tomblin, (D ) Billy Wayne Bailey, Jr., (D) Anita Skeens Caldwell, (D) Shirley Love, (D) Bill Sharpe, (D) Roman W. Prezioso, Jr. (D)Jon Blair Hunter, (D) Mike Ross , (D ) Joe DeLong, (D) Randy Swartzmiller, (D) Tim Ennis, (D) Kenneth D. Tucker, (D) Scott G. Varner, (D) Dave Pethtel, (D) J.D. Beane, (D) Brady R. Paxton, (D ) Kevin J. Craig, (D) Jim Morgan, (D) Don Perdue, (D ) Joe C. Ferrell , (D ) K. Steven Kominar, (D ) Harry Keith White, (D) Richard Browning, (D) W. Richard "Rick" Staton, (D) Eustace Frederick , (D) Marshall Long, (D) Gerald L. Crosier,
(D) *Virginia Mann, (D) *Robert S. Kiss, (D) Ron Thompson, (D) Thomas W. Campbell, (D ) Tom Louisos, (D) David G. Perry, (D) John Pino , (D) Sharon Spencer, (D)Jon Amores , (D) Mark Hunt, (D ) William F. "Bill" Stemple, (D) Brent Boggs, (D) Sam Argento, (D) Joe Talbott, (D ) Bill Hartman, (D) Bill Proudfoot, (D) Doug Stalnaker, (D) Mary M. Poling, (D) Samuel J. "Sam" Cann, (D) Robert "Bob" Beach, (D) Larry A. Williams, (D)Stan Shaver, (D) Harold Michael, (D) Jerry L. Mezzatesta, (D) Bob Tabb, (D) Paul Kanjorski, (D) John Murtha,(D)Tim Holden, (D) Vincent Fumo, (D) Michael O'Pake, (D) Tom Scrimenti, (D) Joseph Markosek, (D) Frank Dermody, (D) Victor Lescovitz, (D) Timothy Solobay, (D) Peter Daley, (D) Lawrence Roberts, (D) James Shaner,(D) Joseph Petrarca, (D) James Casorio, (D) Thomas Tangretti, (D) Edward Wojnaroski, (D) Thomas Yewcic,
(D) Camille "Bud" George, (D) Michael Hanna, (D) Robert Belfanti, (D) James Wansacz, (D) Todd Eachus,(D)Kevin Blaum, (D) Neal Goodman, (D) Richard Grucela, (D) William T. Stachowski, (D) Ginny A. Fields,
(D) Robert K. Sweeney, (D) Aileen M. Gunther, (D) Bill Magee, (D) Darrel J. Aubertine, (D) Francine DelMonte,(D)Robin Schimminger, (D) William L. Parment, (D) Michael Michaud, (D) Bruce Bryant, (D) Christopher Hall,(D) John Martin, (D) Troy Jackson, (D) Rosaire Paradis, (D) Jeremy Fischer, (D) Raymond Wotton, (D) George Bunker, (D) John Wakin, (D) Edward Dugay, (D) Thomas Watson, (D) John Richardson, (D) Sonya Sampson, (D) Rodney Jennings, (D) Susanne Ketterer, (D) Janet Mills, (D) John Patrick, (D) Robert Duplessie, (D) Timothy Driscoll, (D) Elizabeth Ready, (D) Jeb Spaulding, (D) Dick Sears, (D) James Leddy, (D) Virginia Lyons, (D) Robert Starr, (D) Sara Kittell, (D) Richard Mazza, (D) Susan Bartlett, (D) Mark Macdonald, (D) Ann Cummings,(D) John Campbell, (D) Matt Dunne, (D) Peter Welch, (D) Alice Miller, (D) Jim Mccullough, (D) Mark Larson,
(D) John Patrick Tracy, (D) Albert Audette, (D) George Allard, (D) Richard Howrigan, (D) Avis Gervais,(D) Kathleen Keenan, (D) Albert Perry, (D) Floyd Nease, (D) Shap Smith, (D) John Rodgers, (D) Maxine Grad,(D) Harry Monti, (D) Tony Klein, (D) Michael Obuchowski, (D) Carolyn Partridge, (D) Steve Darrow, (D) Alice Emmons, (D) Jim Masland, (D) Alice Nitka, (D) Daniel Adams Eaton, (D) Roland J. Lefebvre, (D) Claire D. Clarke, (D) Robert E. Martel, (D) Dominick J. Ruggerio, (D) Frank A. Ciccone III, (D) Walter S. Felag Jr.,
(D) John F. McBurney III, (D) Joseph A. Montalbano, (D) Michael J. Damiani, (D) Roger Badeau, (D) Marc A. Cote, (D) John J. Tassoni Jr., (D) Joseph M. Polisena, (D) Beatrice A. Lanzi, (D) Michael J. McCaffrey,(D) Stephen D. Alves, (D) Leonidas P. Raptakis, (D) Peter G. Palumbo, (D) Robert B. Jacquard, (D) Matthew J. McHugh, (D) Brian Patrick Kennedy, (D) Stephen R. Ucci, (D) Joseph J. Voccola, (D) Peter J. Petrarca,(D) Roger A. Picard, (D) Arthur J. Corvese, (D) William San Bento Jr., (D) Jan Malik, (D) Michael B. Forte Jr.,
(D) Robert O'Leary, (D) Marc Pacheco, (D) Stephen Brewer, (D) Richard Moore, (D) William "Smitty" Pignatelli,(D)Stephen Kulik, (D) Daniel Keenan, (D) Peter Kocot, (D) Geoffrey Hall, (D) Patricia Walrath, (D) Stephen LeDuc, (D) William Greene, Jr., (D) Bruce Ayers, (D) William Galvin, (D) Garrett Bradley, (D) Christine Canavan,(D) Thomas O'Brien, (D) Brian Knuuttila, (D) Anne Gobi, (D) Harold Naughton, Jr., (D) John Fresolo, (D) Biagio "Billy" Ciotto, (D) Joan V. Hartley, (D) Tom Colapietro, (D) Antonio "Tony" Guerrera, (D) Brian J. O'Connor,(D)Edward E. Moukawsher, (D) Steven T. Mikutel, (D) Jack Malone, (D) Linda A. Orange, (D) Michael J. Cardin,(D)Stephen M. Jarmoc, (D) Peggy Sayers, (D) George M. Wilber, (D) Reginald G. Beamon, (D)Jeffrey J. Berger,(D) Roger Michele, (D) Kosta Diamantis, (D) John "Corky" Mazurek, (D) Emil "Buddy" Altobello, (D) Peter J. Panaroni Jr., (D) Stephen Dargan, (D) Louis Esposito Jr., (D) James Amann, (D) Richard Roy, (D) Terry Backer,(D) Kevin Ryan, (D) Ruth Ann Minner, (D) Anthony Deluca, (D) Robert Venables, SR , (D) Bethany Hall-Long,(D)John Vansant, (D) Michael Mulrooney, (D) John Viola,(D) Bruce Ennis.

The NRA is the most effective RKBA organization in the nation, and gun rights are important to me.

[KansasVoter]

29. More important to you than electing Dems? What % of democratic candidates do they support? ANSWER!

[Statistical]

38. What % of candidates support the right to keep and bear arms.

One wouldn't find it strange that a pro-choice group ONLY supports candidates that protect the right to choose why would you find it strange that a pro RKBA group only supports candidates that support right to keep and bear arms?

[KansasVoter]

45. So you are a single issue supporter. Pro NRA - Anti-Democratic.

[Statistical]

47. Only in your mind.

Luckily unless you buy DU from Skinner your opinion is relatively worthless.

[spin]

115. In my area of Florida the NRA gave my local state representative an A rating ...

I don't religiously follow the NRA recommendation when voting, but I do take it into consideration.

If you were running for office, I would vote for your opponent if he showed any intelligence at all.

[Callisto32]

256. THOU DOEST NOT TOE THY PARTY'S LINE ENOUGH!11!!!!1!!

Gee whiz.

Get OFF it.

Would you support a Democratic candidate that supported making black people a partial person again, if they supported all the rest of your preferred "progressive" agenda?

I'm guessing not, and if you would, you have no principles.

This is what it is like for pro RKBA Dems, I suspect. "I like that guy's positions, but he totally sucks on guns, I just can't bring myself to vote for that..."

Is that really so horrible?

Would you sacrifice your principles on the altar of "ideological purity?"

[GreenStormCloud]

44. Since when do you give orders around here? N/T

[Glassunion]

57. Apparently the lord of the DU is among us. Giving orders and making demands...

Nice way to have a debate...

If I'm not mistaken you threw around a number in your OP stating that the NRA supports 90% of republican candidates. So, unless you pulled that number clean out of thin air (which I am sure you did), you already have your answer. You invented a percentage, you posted it, and now are making demands for other people to answer. So if you don't know the percentage, your OP carries no weight as you invented the percentages and based your entire OP around those numbers which were false. Way to go!

[KansasVoter]

61. So give me the % Einstein!

[Glassunion]

78. I'm sorry, when did I become your slave?

You started this thread, you pulled numbers out of thin air and now are running around making demands for us to give you a percentage. Your OP is full of make believe numbers that you used to prove your point. Since the numbers you used are not real, the entire OP is just emotional drivel.

How about this. Could you please provide all of us proof of the 90% number that you used in your OP?

[KansasVoter]

84. What make believe number other than 90%? You really confuse me.

[Glassunion]

91. Simple. You have no proof. nt

[KansasVoter]

94. I bet 90% is too low. You have none either.

[Glassunion]

104. Ok, let me get this straight.

You are saying that neither of us have proof? Hence the word "either" in your last post.

So you are saying that YOU have no proof, only that you "bet" 90% is too low.

So your entire OP was full of BS. You have no proof of your numbers, yet you based an entire thread on a number that you made up. I would have to say that would negate the entire point of the post. You did no research and based an entire post on something that is completely not true.

You see, you started this thread, if anyone should be taking time out of their day to come up with numbers it would be you. I'm sure you will be back demanding %'s from us, but you are the one that should be trying to prove the point that YOU started.

I have done a quick google of the NRA endorsements, and I would have to say that your 90% is far off the mark. I'll let you do your own homework and look it up yourself.

I am 100% positive that you will NOT come back with ANY proof of your original statements.

[KansasVoter]

111. So your are saying the 90% figure......

Is wrong? You are saying that the NRA supports less than 90% of the GOP candidate in senate and house elections?

[X_Digger]

273. You now have access to endorsements- look it up yourself.

http://www.nrapvf.org/Elections/Default.aspx

Put in your member id and click submit.

You can see for yourself what the numbers are, back to 2002.

Check out the 2008 endorsements.

[PavePusher]

145. Dodge. Tap dance. Duck. Avoid. Evade. Ignore.

Got any other tactics?

[Katya Mullethov]

299. Do it for 25 years

And get a pension from the city ?

[PavePusher]

144. 100% of the ones that support RKBA better than anyone else...

in their respective races.

[Travis Coates]

77. Those aren't "real " democrats NT

[onehandle]

88. I love unsourced lists. Any dogcatchers in there? Because there are few U.S. Congress members.

This NRA site is wonderful. I especially love the right-wing news feed on the bottom right. http://www.gunbanobama.com

Democrats and the UN seem to be some sort of threat. And of course all Democratic SCOTUS nominees. Oh, look... A Washington Times Editorial. What a surprise.


The NRA is a far-right Republican front group.

[michreject]

34. NRA membership is required

to join most, if not all, gun clubs.

[Statistical]

35. Simple. NRA supports candidates that support right to keep and bear arms.

In the past they have given high ratings to Democrats and given very poor ratings to Republicans.

Their uneven support for Republicans has more to do with the very poor track record of some Democratic leaders and RKBA.

If more Democratic candidates supported right to keep and bear arms then the "against 90%" would improve. Then again if the majority of both party respected the 2nd amendment there would be no need for the NRA.

The NRA really only gained in power & popularity in the political scene in 1980s when Democrats began pushing for the greater gun control.

[KansasVoter]

40. But you still support the NRA that wants progressive dems removed from office.

[Statistical]

46. I would rather Democrats support the RKBA.

Many people that listen to the NRA don't ONLY listen to the NRA. I knew Obama would be no friend to RKBA but his other qualities outweighed them. The NRA is more useful than just candidate scores. They routinely notify people when various pro & anti RKBA are before Congress.

This enables people to contact their Senators & Congressmen urging them to support or not support a partciular bill. It is how we have gained right to carry in national parks and transport firearms on Amtrack for example (and just this year).

However in VA the NRA is far more useful. We often have multiple Democratic candidates that support RKBA so those that don't simply are removed from my consideration. I can't wait until the National party catches up. It likely will take 20-30 years. The Democratic party is wrong on this issue and it will take a generation for that to change.

[KansasVoter]

49. And you help progressive candidates lose elections over SINGLE a issue.

[Statistical]

56. Like you said we won large victories in 2006 & 2008

however at the same time more candidates have become more moderate in RKBA. The Assault Weapons Ban is dead, more federal gun control is dead.

The NRA can win by making the winning candidates shift towards supporting the RKBA. The change in legilsation from say mid 90s till today both at federal and state level indicates they are winning that push.

[Travis Coates]

79. I don't believe you can be a progressive dem

and not support 2nd amendment rights

[one-eyed fat man]

90. Would you remove from office progressive Democrats the NRA supports?

Trapshooter? High grade doubles and gentlemanly wagers are one thing.

I used to think "elitist" and "progressive" were mutually exclusive.

You need a bigger one of these:

[beevul]

233. Now I see your error.

"But you still support the NRA that wants progressive dems removed from office."

Let me fix it for you:

"But you still support the NRA that wants antigunners removed from office, progressive or otherwise."


Unless you can show where its ONLY progressives theyre against and BECAUSE theyre progressive, you havent a leg to stand on, friend.


Theres any easy fix though, simply lobby your anti-gun progressives to change thier position on the issue, then the nra can support them, and you can stop your bellyaching about it. :toast:

[GreenStormCloud]

48. In the primaries, the NRA has been effective in getting progressives...

...who are also pro-RKBA elected. Contrary to your belief, it is possible to be progressive and pro-RKBA at the same time.

[KansasVoter]

54. What % of the time does the NRA support a dem? Please respond.

[Travis Coates]

82. 100% of the time

as long as the dem supports RKBA

[Statistical]

86. +1. Exactly it is the candidates choice.

A candidate has the choice to either support or deny the right to keep and bear arms.

Prior to 1970s it really wasn't an issue. Then Democratic party started supporting positions contrary to that fundamental right.

Luckily today we appear to be on the downside of the dabble in anti civil rights.

Groups like NRA keeping politicians accountable for their past actions have ensured things like no new AWB, no new federal gun registry, no federal firearm license, no prohibition on firearms in public lands, etc.

[GreenStormCloud]

106. Irrelevant question. The fact is that they always support the candidate...

...with the best RKBA record. Whether that candidate is D or R or I does not matter. To get their support, all a Democratic Party candidate has to do is be the most pro-RKBA candidate. An NRA endorsement does not guarantee a win, but it is ususally worth several points. Number of points varies with the area.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KansasVoter]

53. I will only request a copy if it is lost i the mail. Or we never received it.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KansasVoter]

67. I think you misunderstood my original post. Or maybe I was not clear......

[Statistical]

69. No you were very clear.

That statement can only be taken one way. You just now realize it looks very bad and want to pretend it away.

[KansasVoter]

70. No, I would never do anything to cost the NRA money.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

149. I must thank you for putting personal attacks in your journal.

Makes things much easier. Do keep it up. :thumbsup:

[Name removed]

201. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[onehandle]

59. K&R. nt

[movonne]

60. Just because you own a gun make you a NRA supporter...

[KansasVoter]

63. what??

[spin]

119. Most gun owners I know do not belong to the NRA ...

I do, and have for years.

Many people who join the NRA, get pissed at their constant fund raising campaigns and propaganda and quit.

[OHdem10]

72. Rank and file Democrats belong to NRA. The Democratic Party

is not Anti-Gun. I personally do not like guns and can
be uncomfortable around them but I will not condemn
another Democrat who loves guns and belongs to organizations
of his/her choice.

If a person is a Democrat, votes for Democratic Party and
supports the platform of the party, who am I to say
he/she is not worthy of posting on this board.

Someone who does not like guns.

[spin]

120. An unusually fair post from someone who does not like guns. (n/t)

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rrneck]

109. Since you're unwilling

to do any research on your own, I'll help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressivism

Progressivism is a political attitude favoring or advocating changes or reform. Progressivism is often viewed in opposition to conservative or reactionary ideologies. The Progressive Movement began in cities with settlement workers and reformers who were interested in helping those facing harsh conditions at home and at work. The reformers spoke out about the need for laws regulating tenement housing and child labor. They also called for better working conditions for women.

In the United States, the term progressivism emerged in the late 19th century into the 20th century in reference to a more general response to the vast changes brought by industrialization: an alternative to both the traditional conservative response to social and economic issues and to the various more radical streams of socialism and anarchism which opposed them. Political parties, such as the Progressive Party, organized at the start of the 20th century, and progressivism made great strides under American presidents Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and Lyndon Baines Johnson <1>.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism

Liberalism (from the Latin liberalis, "of freedom"<1>) is the belief in the importance of liberty and equality.<2><3> Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but most liberals support such fundamental ideas as constitutions, liberal democracy, free and fair elections, human rights, capitalism, free trade, and the separation of church and state. These ideas are widely accepted, even by political groups that do not openly profess a liberal ideological orientation. Liberalism encompasses several intellectual trends and traditions, but the dominant variants are classical liberalism, which became popular in the 18th century, and social liberalism, which became popular in the 20th century.

Liberalism first became a powerful force in the Age of Enlightenment, rejecting several foundational assumptions that dominated most earlier theories of government, such as hereditary status, established religion, absolute monarchy, and the Divine Right of Kings. The early liberal thinker John Locke, who is often credited for the creation of liberalism as a distinct philosophical tradition, employed the concept of natural rights and the social contract to argue that the rule of law should replace absolutism in government, that rulers were subject to the consent of the governed, and that private individuals had a fundamental right to life, liberty, and property.

The revolutionaries in the American Revolution and the French Revolution used liberal philosophy to justify the armed overthrow of tyrannical rule. The 19th century saw liberal governments established in nations across Europe, Latin America, and North America. Liberal ideas spread even further in the 20th century, when liberal democracies triumphed in two world wars and survived major ideological challenges from fascism and communism. Conservatism, fundamentalism, and military dictatorship remain powerful opponents of liberalism. Today, liberals are organized politically on all major continents. They have played a decisive role in the growth of republics, the spread of civil rights and civil liberties, the establishment of the modern welfare state, the institution of religious toleration and religious freedom, and the development of globalization. Political scientist Alan Wolfe wrote, "liberalism is the answer for which modernity is the question".<4>

In too small a nutshell, liberalism and Progressivism are very similar in that they both advocate accelerated cultural change. Progressives generally concentrate their economic and social change on the proper use of government, while liberalism seeks accelerated change by the promulgation of ideas from as broad a spectrum of the humanity as possible. Some call it democracy. In both cases, accelerated cultural change is the hallmark of liberal and progressive thought.

With respect to the National Rifle Association, just give it time. They are a one issue organization, and advocate for the right to keep and bear arms. They also make a pretty god living at it. In case you haven't noticed there have been some pretty significant changes in the laws regarding the possession and carriage of firearms in the last few years. That's called change. If the National Rifle Association wants to stay relevant, they will have to get on the Progressive/Liberal bandwagon and roll with it or die along with the conservative ideology that has fed them all these years.

Oh, as a graphic example of what I'm talking about, here's that map again:

[KansasVoter]

121. How does that change anything I wrote, does the NRA work for or against.....

liberal causes?

So, in 2010 will the NRA support candidates that support Gay marriage, Health Care etc or will the oppose most of them?

Will the NRA support a totally liberal candidate who loves Single payer, Gay Marriage Etc but that opposes CCW or support a GOP candidate who is pro-CCW and against every other progressive cause?

I think I might need to answer for you because you are confused, the NRA will, in the above situation, support the GOP candidate EVERY TIME.

And your support of the NRA means you do not care about anything but ONE ISSUE.

So once again, don't try to make this argument about anything but the NRA being against progressive candidates.

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rrneck]

150. LOL!

"I think I might need to answer for you because you..."

You think you might like to answer for me because you couldn't handle the answer you got.

The National Rifle Association is a one issue organization. They are not interested in anything other than guns. They support candidates that align with their views. They have over four million members, including you.

I imagine the NRA still supports a preponderance of conservative candidates. Why don't you produce some documentation for the 90% figure in the OP? Of course, as a newly minted member of the NRA, you are uniquely positioned to answer that question and make a difference in who they support. Get to work on that.

I understand that this whole politics thing is very new and exciting for you and that doing battle with the forces of darkness on the pro gun side makes you feel like you're striking a blow for progressives everywhere. Try to remember that attempting to force adherence to any ideology, especially one that fails to take into consideration the reality of people's lives, is about the most un-progressive thing you could do.

You seem to be clinging to position that has been a political third rail for Democrats for the last few decades. I would suggest you put aside your fondness for a failed ideology and help produce real answers for real people, because the bulk of Americans are waaay ahead of you on that score. That's the part of my answer you didn't (or wouldn't) understand. The Democratic Party is changing, because democrats are changing, and the NRA will change right along with them. This may come as a shock to you, but the Democratic party isn't your personal sandbox where you get to make all the rules and decide who gets to be a member.

Start reading something other than bumper stickers. You might learn something.

[one-eyed fat man]

255. Reframe your question

Will the NRA support a totally liberal candidate who loves Single payer, Gay Marriage Etc and supports CCW and RKBA or support a GOP candidate who not only wants to ban guns but abortion as well, have prayer in schools, and supports an Constitutional amendment banning gay marriage?


I think I might need to answer for you because you are confused, the NRA will, in the above situation, support the pro-RKBA candidate EVERY TIME.

Or are you such a strident, doctrinaire ideologue that regardless of his other stance on the issues you would have to vote for the anti-gun candidate?

Or that, Mark Benenson, former president of Amnesty International's US branch -- who could be described as "liberal" by any conceivable standard, couldn't possibly be the outspoken supporter of the Second Amendment that he is?

[jody]

122. True "progressives" support all unalienable rights. Those who support only some rights have their

own totalitarian agenda that is anathema to liberalism goals of maximum individual freedom and minimum government.

We just celebrated that historic event on July 4th 1776 but people should also remember the Constitution signed by Pennsylvania in that same year.

A DECLARATION OF THE RIGHTS OF THE INHABITANTS OF THE COMMONWEALTH OR STATE OF PENNSYLVANIA - 28 Sept. 1776 "That all men are born equally free and independent, and have certain natural, inherent and inalienable rights, amongst which are, the enjoying and defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing and protecting property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety."

and

"That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State; and, as standing armies, in the time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military should be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power."

So there is no misunderstanding PA later ratified the BOR on 10 March 1790 and with contemporaneous knowledge of the Second Amendment, PA modified its constitution that took effect on 2 Sept. 1790 to say “The right of the citizens to bear arms in defence of themselves and the State shall not be questioned.”

[KansasVoter]

128. Once again, slowly for you........

If there was a PERFECT Dem candidate who opposed CCW or a right wing GOP candidiate who opposed everything the Dems wanted but supported CCW you KNOW the NRA would support the GOP idiot and try to defeat the Dem candidate.

And you, if you are a real liberal, would oppose the NRA supporting the GOP candidate. Unless you are a SINGLE issue voter.

You can't support the NRA and support liberal causes because they try to defeat liberals based on ONE issue!!!!

[jody]

138. Since you are having problems understanding simple truths one final example, NRA gave Don Siegelman

an A+ rating when he was the Democratic candidate for governor of Alabama.

There are many other examples and those facts prove your assertions are not true.

If you were a true Democrat you would support our platform statement "We recognize that the right to bear arms is an important part of the American tradition, and we will preserve Americans’ Second Amendment right to own and use firearms."

Since you oppose our Democratic Party platform, what party do you support?

I support the natural, inherent, inalienable/unalienable right to keep and bear arms for self defense acknowledged by PA (1776) and VT (1777) enumerated in the Second Amendment to our Constitution (1790) obligating government to protect for all law abiding citizens -- not any other political issue advanced by the National Rifle Association

[KansasVoter]

151. So, SINGLE ISSUE VOTER, understood.

[jody]

179. I'm so sorry you admit being a SINGLE ISSUE VOTER because of your phobia against firearms. Perhaps a

medical specialist could treat your fear that causes such an obsession.

Here's to a rapid cure if you choose to seek professional advice, :toast:

[KansasVoter]

152. What % of candidates are GOP vs. Dems that the NRA supports???

[jody]

177. I know of no candidate who supports the inalienable/unalienable civil right protected by the 2nd

amendment that has been opposed by any group with a focus on that single civil right.

I do know candidates of all parties who have been opposed by groups claiming to represent civil rights because of a candidate's support for the right to keep and bear arms.

[KansasVoter]

156. I do support the right to bear arms.......

just not the CCW part.

So I do support the party rules and their candidates and oppose any group, like the NRA, that works against them.

Thanks for making my point.

[safeinOhio]

166. The CCW part has a long history.

I support the way it is implemented in most states, other than the training part is lacking.

The problem was and is still in states that have the old system of only issuing to those that are or were politically connected. The only problem I have is that the class does not require enough hours and the test are a joke. Open book, or going over all the answers just before taking the test. These are all state laws and need to be dealt with on the state level and not nationally.

I support the NRA training and safety classes, but like you, I have no use for the political wing.

[KansasVoter]

167. We are not far apart.

[jody]

174. Dem Party supports CCW and candidates who do. Sorry you oppose Dem candidates and support groups who

advocate infringing upon inalienable/unalienable civil rights.

I hope someday you will change your mind and embrace all planks in our Party platform rather than just a few.

[PavePusher]

175. Ummm, I take that to mean you support Open Carry?

That being the only other way to bear arms...?

[cowman]

190. I'm curious

what is it about CC that you have a problem with?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

210. The NRA is, therefore, guilty of supporting "only some rights".

Why do people here like them so much then?

[cowman]

217. When has the NRA ever said

only support some rights?
They are a single issue group, they don't comment on the other rights, and just because they don't doesn't mean that they don't support all rights.
Tell me, does it hurt to be this ignorant?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

221. "When has the NRA ever said only support some rights?"

They say that when they support anti-gay politicians, as long as they're pro-gun rights.

They say that when they support anti-worker politicians, as long as they're pro-gun rights.

They say that when they support anti-poor politicians, as long as they're pro-gun rights.

They say that when they support racist politicians, as long as they're pro-gun rights.

They say that when they support misogynist politicians, as long as they're pro-gun rights.

Need I go on?

[cowman]

238. Gee

I've never heard them say that. Fail, but your going to believe what you want to believe so keep on keeping on.

[Travis Coates]

243. they also say

They say that when they support pro-gay politicians, as long as they're pro-gun rights.

They say that when they support pro-worker politicians, as long as they're pro-gun rights.

They say that when they support pro-poor politicians, as long as they're pro-gun rights.

They say that when they support non-racist politicians, as long as they're pro-gun rights.

They say that when they support non-misogynist politicians, as long as they're pro-gun rights.

Need I go on?

[Taitertots]

139. It is easy, multiple issue voters support single issues they care about

If Obama publicly stated he supported legislation against frisbee golf, the PDGA would obviously be against him, I'd agree with them and maintain membership but vote for Obama over McCain anyway.

All that NRA money and support is available to Obama if he chooses to stop supporting issues I disagree with.

[KansasVoter]

154. No, "ISSUE" for you. Not plural!

[Taitertots]

159. The way I wrote it was correct n/t

[stray cat]

168. Progressives are no more live and let live than conservatives

I can see why some moderate libertarians would curse both parties. Both the right and the left want to legislate their own morality on everyone else.

[Callisto32]

302. I think most libertarians do.

I sure do.

[Glassunion]

170. I know how...

First off, I notice some of the most extreme vocal people in this forum seldom post on other DU forums about real progressive issues. I wonder of some or many of them are only here because there is a gun forum on a liberal web site.

First off, some of us feel that the entire BOR are progressive issues. On a personal level, I am a member of many “one trick pony” organizations, both my wife and I are members of the NRA, ACLU, AAPD, NAACP and NOW. We are also members of the Democratic party. You need to realize that there are people that believe in ALL of the restrictions on our government that the bill of rights provides. Sorry, but I feel that the RKBA is a "real" progressive issue.

In all honesty, I found the DU as a comfortable place to discuss gun issues without the sickening right-wing rhetoric that many other websites provide. I know that I can have an open and comfortable debate with members of my own party on issues that I feel are important. I do post elsewhere when the mood strikes.

Until someone pointed me to this forum I would not have believed there are "progressives" on the DU that loved the NRA so much.

I enjoy how you placed quotes around the word progressive. To imply that we cannot truly be “progressive” if we are a member of the NRA. But, just as the NAACP fights for my rights as an African-American, the NRA fights for my rights as a gun owner. Both are civil rights, guaranteed by the Bill of Rights and both organizations fight hard for their stances on their respective issues.

If, for example, I was extremely anti-abortion and was a liberal, which I think is not very common, I would still NEVER join an anti-abortion group that would donate money to defeat 90% of the democrats in office. I would never join a anti-abortion group that would help defeat good democrats that were trying to implement other progressive causes. Doing so would totally counter the whole purpose of being a liberal. If you do that you must be a SINGLE ISSUE voter and it would mean anti-abortion or pro-guns is the MOST IMPORTANT issue to you and health care, gay/lesbian, helping the needy, etc did not matter as much as the ONE issues you support.

Personally I think the above paragraph is full of crap. For one thing, you have no proof of that 90% number that you are tossing around. Another thing is that they only endorse a candidate on their 2nd amendment stance. All they are doing is raising awareness of their issue to their members. Just as all of the other civil rights groups do. How many Democrats on Election Day back in 08 do you think voted for McCain solely on his 2nd Amendment stance? I did not, and neither did my wife. But, the NRA gave him an F? How could he have possibly been elected? How could it be? How could it be that the NRA gave good grades to almost 40% of the Democrats in the 08 elections in my home state? I thought they hated Democrats? I thought they were a front for the GOP?

I could not support an organization that would trash Obama or issue warnings about a democrat that I think cared more about this country than any GOP member ever has. And I could not support a group who mostly contained members that also hated those same democrats. Why would I send money to a group that did everything possible to remove liberal democrats from office over ONE SINGLE ISSUE that I care about.

First off, they do NOT hate Democrats. What have they done specifically to remove liberal Democrats from office? They do nothing more than grade and endorse based on a candidate’s voting history and stance on issues. They raise awareness of issues, and legally fight for the stance of their members. You make it sound like they march into Washington every January with impeachment papers for everyone on the left side of the isle. You are making stuff up, then upsetting yourself over what you just made up.

I would work to convince democrats that they needed to be against abortions, but I would never donate money to an organization that was against 90% of the progressive candidates because they were pro-choice.

The NRA supporters here are doing exactly this. Supporting the NRA when they know they are against 90% of the democrats in office. How this is OK with anyone is beyond me. So I guess if we had GREAT liberal that agreed with everything the Democratic party stood for, except he/her was against conceal and carry, you would still be OK with the NRA donating money to his right wing, anti-health care, anti-gay marriage, pro-war opponent because he wanted to allow you to carry concealed weapons. What a joke! Talk about being a single issue idiot!!!

Since you obviously have taken great care when coming up with this opinion on the NRA, and have so painstakingly collected a “black-list” of members of the Democratic party. Could be so kind as to share this list of the 90% of all the Democrats in office that you are referring to? I would love to see it.

And keep in mind, even with the NRA being against 90% of democrats we took the house and senate in 2008, and kicked ass in 2010. So maybe you need to be donating more money to make sure NRA supported candidates (Republicans) get elected to you can make sure the supreme court has more GOP judges in it.

Again, I would love to see this list that you compiled. I have news for you… Shhh… It’s a secret… The NRA does not elect people to office, nor do they impeach them. We the People do. Do you honestly think that the pro-RKBA Democrats around here are voting for Republicans on the sole basis of their 2nd Amendment stance? I think you might be surprised.

So continue to support the NRA and try to tell me you are a liberal progressive supporter.

I will. And, I am.

No one except you and your NRA buddies will believe it anyway!

I don’t care. Just as I don’t care what my NAACP, NOW, ACLU and AAPD buddies think. I believe in this country, I believe in the Bill of Rights (ALL OF IT) and I believe in our Democratic system.

From your comments, you do not believe in the things that I do. And that is your right. You can be a member of any organization you want, you can vote for who you want.

All I see from you is someone who hates a civil right and would like nothing more than to see it repealed. So when things are not going your way you toss a tantrum bashing a civil rights organization. Remember, that is all that they are. They stand up for a civil right. It just happens to be one you don’t agree with. Maybe you should write a senator or congressman about your feelings. You may want to include your super secret "black-list" when you write them.

[Name removed]

180. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jody]

193. If a Dem candidate is either pro-life or anti-gay marriage or anti-health care that is contrary to

the Dem platform how is that different from your acknowledged position of anti-CCW that is consistent with our Democratic Party Platform?

Why do you condemn Democratic candidates for the same behavior you yourself espouse?

[KansasVoter]

194. I can deal with 1 or two issues I do not agree with.......

I am not a single issue voter on any democratic. If a dem was pro everything and also thought CCW was OK I would not automatically not vote for them.

But MANY GOP candidates, that the NRA hands millions to, are against EVERY progressive issue. Do you deny that?

[cowman]

195. I'll respectfully ask again

what is it about a CHL that you have a problem with?

[KansasVoter]

197. More guns on the street, more to be stolen and resold and lets face it......

there are people out there who do it for macho, tough guy reasons. I have seen them and talked to them. They almost are hoping they get a reason to use their CW.

I have no issue with long guns at home. For hunting, trap shooting, etc.

And I think there is a gun culture in this country that make us a more violent nation.

Higher murder rate than many countries like us, UK, Canada, France, Australia etc.

65% murders are by guns. 3rd highest country in the world at % of murders by guns.

People here do not get it that you can be OK with people owning guns but just want to draw the line some where.

They think if you are anti-NRA you don't want any guns. That is bullshit.

I know a lot of progressives who would march on DC if the government tried to take all guns away. But the NRA tries to worry people with that type of rhetoric.

[cowman]

208. That doesn't make any sense

how can a Concealed weapon be stolen and resold on the street? How would a criminal know if someone like me had a weapon if it's concealed?
Sure there are people like that but the vast majority of us that have a CHL are far more law abiding than the average citizen because of the awesome responsibility we bear by carrying concealed.
Do you know what involves getting a CHL?
I have had one for several years now and have never had to draw it yet, matter of fact it has become so commonplace for me to carry it, it's like carrying my wallet, I know it's there but I don't think about it.

[KansasVoter]

215. Many guns are stolen from cars.......Or homes, and more CC means more available.

I know what it takes to get one in Kansas.

[cowman]

219. Concealed carry mean

concealed on your person, not in your car, and most of us have safes at home for our guns when not at home, maybe I don't get it but how does more CC mean more available?
And the vast majority of states don't seem to agree with you.

[KansasVoter]

226. Are you really going to tell me that more guns in homes will not turn.....

into more stolen guns? Many guns are also secured in cars when people cannot carry them into some businesses.

Many police reports of stolen guns. They end up on the street.

[cowman]

237. Yeah

secured. If I can't carry into a business, I have a small gun safe in the trunk of my car as do most responsible gun owners.

[KansasVoter]

240. Most lock in truck! Ask the police!

[cowman]

245. Ok

I'll ask my youngest daughter who is a Las Vegas Police Officer.

[oneshooter]

289. I simply do not give my money to a business that is posted 30.06. n/t

[Travis Coates]

247. You have a point here

But what I think you don't realize is that many of the gun owners here go to great lengths to keep their guns out of the hands of criminals. Every gun I own resides in a gun safe unless it is under my direct personal control. The only exception being my wife's and the only difference is it's under her direct control. there are very few places in Colorado that I can't carry my gun (I even carried every day in college) but for those times where I can't carry I have a safe mounted in my car.

So, when I've taken every reasonable precaution to ensure my guns aren't stolen why should I be punished for the irresponsibility of another person?

[jody]

196. Again, " Why do you condemn Democratic candidates for the same behavior you yourself espouse?" n/t

[KansasVoter]

198. I do not understand your question.......what do you mean?

[jody]

205. Easy "Why do you condemn Democratic candidates for the same behavior you yourself espouse?" That's

not so difficult unless you are blind to your own actions that are identical to those Dem candidates you oppose?

[KansasVoter]

206. OK, you really need to phrase your question where I can understand it.......

A lot of the candidates your NRA support agree with NOTHING I support.

No Democratic candidate agrees with nothing I support. If they did they would not be dems.

If the NRA ranks a Dem high for CC support I do not automatically not support the dem.

[jody]

214. No need to rephrase my question. You refuse to answer it and that speaks volumes for your position.

No matter how many more posts we exchange, your posts show you are a single issue voter opposing those who support the Second Amendment, a position to which you are entitled as an American citizen but no different than a Democratic candidate who might oppose abortion OR have a position on another divisive, polarizing political issue contrary to our Democratic Party Platform.

Your posts confirm my description of you and unfortunately for you the time has passed and you can no longer alter that record.

Tough! :shrug:

[KansasVoter]

223. Wow....read this REAL SLOW.........

If a dem was pro-choice, pro gay, pro health care etc and supported CC I would still vote for them if they were in the general election.

So that shoots down your single issue shit. But I bet you still are confused!

[jody]

231. You sound like the Black Knight from the Monty Python film. Thanks for the laughs, you made my day.

[KansasVoter]

241. And, I make my point and you quit! Win for me!

[oneshooter]

204. So you are a straight line voter?

And, according to you, if others do not follow you in lock step they are neither Democrats nor progressive?

That is what I am getting out of all of this.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[KansasVoter]

209. You mean always vote for dems? Mostly......

But have voted for Independents before.

No GOP since I was an idiot in college and voted for Reagan the 1st time. Not the 2nd.

I would never support a group, like the NRA, who hands millions of dollars to candidates I would never support because of ONE issue.

And your "Armed and Livin in Texas" is on your tag line because??

[oneshooter]

236. Because I want it there. n/t

[oneshooter]

281. Please answer the other question.

"And, according to you, if others do not follow you in lock step they are neither Democrats nor progressive?"


Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[jody]

181. Glassunion well stated. I encourage you and others to read the opinion of Justice Clarence Thomas

concurring in part and concurring in the judgment of MCDONALD ET AL. v. CITY OF CHICAGO, ILLINOIS, ET AL. beginning on page 67 of 214.

Thomas' comments are history that many who would ban firearms ignore in their obsessive hate of firearms that spawn laws which effectively support criminals and oppose victims.

[Vote2008]

182. Clarence Thomas, one of the worst justices in history! And only in this forum is he famous! Funny!

[jody]

184. Please tell all DU what specific facts Thomas cites that are not true. It's sad that anyone would

let their hate of another person blind them to truth as do hate groups like the KKK and others.

Again, please quote those passages from Thomas' opinion that you believe are not factual.

As your post #182 stands without qualification by you, it is IMO a slur against the entire African-American community.

[east texas lib]

187. Yet even a broken clock is right twice a day...

And Thomas is dead on regarding this particular issue. Gun control in larger metropolitan areas has always had it's roots in the oppression of the targeted demographic by the incumbency.

[jody]

189. One might argue that Chicago politicians want to ban guns so crime is rampant and they can always

campaign on promises to eliminate crime that flourishes because law-abiding citizens are unarmed and only criminals have guns thanks to the laws passed by the politicians running for election.

[east texas lib]

199. Indeed, by result of their policies,or by intent of same...

The madness continues.

[Vote2008]

183. OP, you realize this post is way too logical for this group?

[jody]

185. Why don't you defend your position with facts? n/t

[cowman]

188. Ha ha ha

is that the best you got? Don't bring emotions to a fact fight, ooops, I meant to say don't bring stupidity to a fact fight

[Caliman73]

282. His post has been argued and refuted throughout the thread.

Just because he keeps repeating the same argument and dodges questions it does not mean that his argument is valid. You happen to agree with his idea, that is all you need to say. Insulting the other responders in the thread is just the same tactic the OP has been using.

[east texas lib]

192. The NRA supports the 2A, silly rabbit...

Someone has to since the too cool PC crowd isn't going to. Simple, no?

[KansasVoter]

202. That is fine, but if you support them then you are not helping progressives!

[cowman]

213. If a progressive supports

all the rights then they have my vote, but I find that pols who say they support all rights except the 2nd Amend. then they are not progressives and they will not get my vote, same with any other right

[KansasVoter]

216. LOL...thanks for making my point.......

YOU are a single issue voter.

[cowman]

225. Tell me does it hurt to be this stupid?

I said if a pol supports ALL RIGHTS then I will vote for them however if they oppose any right, they have lost my vote

[KansasVoter]

228. Wow, Any right? Explain all of them for me.

[cowman]

234. Why do I have to explain them all to you?

And that sounds like a demand, sorry the only one who can demand something of me is my wife.

[KansasVoter]

244. Lol.....good one!

[jody]

222. And if a pol says they support all rights except "freedom of speech" they don't get my vote. Only

someone trying to distort your point would fail to understand your simple message, "All unalienable rights count and none are more important than any other".

[cowman]

229. Thank you

well put. However this poster is going to twist words to believe what he wants to believe.

[KansasVoter]

230. What about HATE speech? Slander? Those are not supported!! You disagree with that??

[cowman]

235. Hate speech, as repulsive as it is

is protected by the 1st Amend, Slander is not.

[KansasVoter]

239. So any candidate who is against slander is anti 1st admenment?

[cowman]

248. Nope

we have civil laws against slander, you won't be arrested but you can be sued.
Gotta go for now, we have a coyote pup that is demanding to be fed and paid attention to and I have to pull an 24 hr shift tomorrow.
Peace Out

[aikoaiko]

232. Well, to be honest, I have a complicated relationship with the NRA.

The NRA will support anyone progressive, republican, democrat, green party, whoever , who is best on the right to keep and bear arms.

[KansasVoter]

242. But also spend millions on a right wing idiot who....

Is anti-abortion, anti-gay pro-war and pro-gun! And try to get them elected!
Not complicated to me! The candidate is getting your NRA money and in theory you are a liberal???

[aikoaiko]

252. Its not necessary for the Democratic or progressive candidate to be so lousy on this civil liberty.

Or at least worse than a Republicon. As Democrats get better on 2nd Amendment or gun rights issues, the NRA supports them.

[proteus_lives]

257. I'm not in the NRA. I support the rights of my fellow citizens.

You're always supporting them being stripped away so you might find the concept confusing.

[applegrove]

259. Oh they are NRA types. No doubt they show up just when a topic is posted on guns.

Then they obfuscate. Same old, same old.

[AtheistCrusader]

260. I'm a pro-RKBA progressive, and I do not support the NRA.

Their training is ok, especially the eddie eagle program, but their political wing is too vocal, too divisive, and they distort the truth entirely too much for me to tolerate.

Their track record of opposing democrats, by itself, is not a turn-off for me, because the NRA is a single-issue advocacy group. That's fine. But I will not tolerate distortion of the truth, or outright lies. (From either side)


Feel better now?

[Enthusiast]

264. It matters little how

pro gun rights a Democratic candidate is the NRA will support the Republican. So, no way will I support the NRA. They finally got tired of hearing my rant so they quit calling me.

[Recursion]

267. That's just not true

Upthread you'll find a list of dozens of Democrats the NRA has endorsed over Republicans. Between two candidates whose record they find acceptable, they will support the incumbent, which is why the more seats we get the more endorsements we get.

[Enthusiast]

283. Yeah, I've seen their extremely

expensive two page glossy magazine articles that paint Democrats as feverish anti-gun zealots. It is ridiculous. Never has an organization been less objective or unfair toward Democrats, unless it is the "Right To Life".

[benEzra]

268. Yeah, like they endorsed Harry Reid (D) over Sharron Angle (R) a couple weeks ago.

And their first endorsement of the year went to Ted Strickland (D) of Ohio.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

269. That's asinine.

The NRA openly supports several democrats who are pro-gun.
Right here in Ohio, incumbant Ted Strickland is NRA-backed for governor.

[X_Digger]

275. Not backed up by fact.

Here are some of the 2008 (D) endorsements from WV, many over (R) candidates-

Governor- (D) *JOE MANCHIN, III
Attorney General- (D) *DARRELL MCGRAW
Secretary of State- (D) NATALIE TENNANT

US House of Reps:
District 3: (D) *NICK RAHALL
District 2: (R) *SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO

State Senate:
District 2: (D) *JEFFREY KESSLER
District 5: (D) *ROBERT PLYMALE
District 6: (D) *JOHN PAT FANNING
District 7: (D) *EARL RAY TOMBLIN
District 8: (D) COREY PALUMBO
District 9: (D) RICHARD BROWNING
District 11: (D) WILLIAM LAIRD IV

State House of Reps:
District 4: (D) MICHAEL FERRO, (D) *SCOTT VARNER
District 13: (D) *BRADY PAXTON, (D) *DALE MARTIN
.....

Democrats endorsed: 76
Republicans endorsed: 40

[Pullo]

277. See Ohio Democratic Gov. Ted Strickland

Your accusation rings hollow.

Strickland was endorsed by the NRA over Republican John Kasich. Strickland has a long record of being pro-RKBA, including voting against the 90's AWB as a member of congress and signing Ohio's Castle Doctrine into law as governor. Kasich, on the other hand, voted for the AWB and has seemed wishy-washy in his support the RKBA.

Now, I'm not a member of the NRA, but they will endorse pro-RBKA democrats. Heck, rumors are swirling they will endorse Harry Reid in Nevada over that teabagging hag he faces in the upcoming election, even though Reid voted for the AWB.

The NRA is a single issue organization. As the Democratic party has backed off pushing gun control, with many Democratic candidates being openly pro-RBKA, the NRA is slowly but surely endorsing more Democrats. If you've been paying attention, you would know this is driving conservative groups crazy right now. The NRA is taking a ton of heat from the right lately, because many in the GOP took their support for granted.

Again, while I am not a member for a multitude of reasons, I do in general agree with their positions on RKBA issues.

[DonP]

301. That is what we call a lie or sheer ignorance - pick one.

My congressional candidate (Halvorson D - IL) is getting her second endorsement over a GOP opponent.

Since you didn't feel the need to add any qualifiers to your statement you are either wrong out of ignorance or lying outright. Pick one.

I've been a member for over 20 years now and easily opted out of any online, mail and phone solicitations. The only calls I get now are around elections time and they have said the NRA support Debbie Halvorson in the upcoming election over her GOP opponent Kinzinger. Just like the one I got from the NRA two years ago that endorsed her over Ozinga - GOP. They have yet to take a stand on the other races.

Sorry if you have a bunch of piss poor gun control people running in your district.

Willful ignorance of reality is not a progressive value - no matter how cool you think it makes you sound.

[Enthusiast]

304. Two page glossy

advertisements against Bill and Hillary Clinton will alienate some Democrats for a long while. You can call it willful ignorance or any insult you wish but the NRA were unreasonable. Actually I am a liberal gun owner and I hate the NRA.

[friendly_iconoclast]

305. I call it an obvious untruth, and you were (properly, imo) busted on it. How about owning up to it?

Do you really want to be lumped with the several victims of Paisley Syndrome that have posted on this thread already?

[Enthusiast]

309. Lumped?

Lump all you want.

[X_Digger]

270. Haven't been paying attention, have you?

Where'd this 90% bullshit come from?

Here's the totals from the 2008 election cycle in WV

Democrats endorsed: 76
Republicans endorsed: 40

Here's a sample of the endorsements of dems over reps-

Governor- (D) *JOE MANCHIN, III
Attorney General- (D) *DARRELL MCGRAW
Secretary of State- (D) NATALIE TENNANT

US House of Reps:
District 3: (D) *NICK RAHALL
District 2: (R) *SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO

State Senate:
District 2: (D) *JEFFREY KESSLER
District 5: (D) *ROBERT PLYMALE
District 6: (D) *JOHN PAT FANNING
District 7: (D) *EARL RAY TOMBLIN
District 8: (D) COREY PALUMBO
District 9: (D) RICHARD BROWNING
District 11: (D) WILLIAM LAIRD IV

State House of Reps:
District 4: (D) MICHAEL FERRO, (D) *SCOTT VARNER
District 13: (D) *BRADY PAXTON, (D) *DALE MARTIN

[slackmaster]

271. I don't understand how anyone can oppose individual liberty and call him/herself "progressive"

I don't support the NRA financially because of the fact that they give so much support to politicians with whom I disagree on many things.

I often find myself in agreement with its positions on gun laws and the right to keep and bear arms.

So I guess if we had GREAT liberal that agreed with everything the Democratic party stood for, except he/her was against conceal and carry, you would still be OK with the NRA donating money to his right wing, anti-health care, anti-gay marriage, pro-war opponent because he wanted to allow you to carry concealed weapons.

Could you please point out someone specific who fits that description, KansasVoter?

Frankly I think you are indulging in a bit of poisoning of the well here.

[jeepnstein]

276. Politics is a rotten business.

The NRA has endorsed my friend Gov. Ted Strickland of Ohio. He's about as Democrat as they come.

If a Democrat is good on the 2nd Amendment the NRA will support them, even at the expense of a Republican. It's just that the Republicans have exploited this wedge issue better than the Democrats. Republicans are much better polarizers.

The GOP has it's hooks in many of the single interest groups, Right to Life being one of them. I've seen Republican operatives rise to positions of power within those groups and then take positions that are not exactly in the group's interest when it comes to endorsing candidates. I think the NRA has resisted this better than most although I certainly don't care for some of their campaign literature. That's why I don't give money to the NRA. I did send a donation in once in the name of a buddy who I used to travel with to Grateful Dead shows. They drove him insane.

[SteveM]

278. Perhaps this is one reason:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x325753

[derby378]

280. Well...

I get along great with Alice Tripp of the Texas State Rifle Association. And I even talk to some of the folks at the national NRA office once in a while - we've shared a little information in the past.

But I'm not a member of the NRA. I'm the current chair of the Gun Owners Caucus of the Texas Democratic Party and the webmaster for Amendment II Democrats, but that's it, really. Nothing against the good folks in the NRA, but the organization on a national level has been throwing their weight behind certain persons and ideas that I, as a liberal Democrat, don't feel comfortable supporting.

The NRA will remain the "800-pound gorilla" of the gun lobby for a long time to come, but I believe a little diversity in the gun lobby is in order.

[Glassunion]

286. Maybe this will help. How could a progressive be a member of the NRA?

A little history.

The NRA is an American non-partisan, non-profit organization which lists as its goals the protection of the Second Amendment of the United States Bill of Rights and the promotion of firearm ownership rights as well as marksmanship, firearm safety, and the protection of hunting and self-defense in the United States.

Notice the NON-PARTISAN part. They are NOT affiliated with ANY party whatsoever.

Yes they DO endorse political candidates (both Democratic and Republican) on their stances on "Protecting the 2nd Amendment of the United States Bill of Rights and the promotion of firearm ownership rights as well as marksmanship, firearm safety, and the protection of hunting and self-defense in the United States". That's it. Nothing more.

So their stated mission is to protect the 2nd Amendment. They endorse those who do. Whether or not they are a Democrat or Republican is a moot point. I'll say it again, "Their stated mission is to protect the 2nd Amendment."

You say that the NRA seeks to remove 90% of elected Democrats (still waiting on that list) yet the policy that the NRA uses to determine their endorsements is quite contrary to your belief. If an elected Democrat supports the 2nd Amendment they actually stand a 100% chance of being endorsed by the NRA for re-election, regardless of the Republican's stance on the 2nd Amendment. Let me explain.

"The NRA-PVF is non-partisan in issuing its candidate grades and endorsements. We do not base our decisions on a candidate's party affiliation, but rather on his or her record on Second Amendment issues" The NRA has an incumbent-friendly policy that dictates their support for pro-gun incumbents seeking reelection. They feel it is important that they stand with their friends who stand with them in Congress or the state legislature through their actions.

So in all honesty, and you can see it for yourself, the NRA is today backing more and more Democrats. As the political shift towards gun rights has been moving more towards the law abiding citizens. And the Dems are voting more and more pro 2nd Amendment, the NRA is backing more and more Democrats. As I stated in an earlier post, the NRA backed 40% of the Dems running in my state for 2008. Why is that do you suppose? Because they saw those candidates as most likely to support the 2nd Amendment. They did not give out endorsements to everyone. There were many elections, the majority with a Republican incumbent, that the NRA did not give an endorsement to anyone. So to say that they do nothing but tout for the Republican party is nonsense.

Since you are a proxy member you must also know about all of the programs that the NRA has to offer.

Their 2nd to none firearms safety programs.
Their Rifle and Pistol sports programs.
Their certified instructors available at most gun clubs and ranges throughout the nation.
The NRA also has ties with other organizations such as the Boy Scouts of America (I know they are the Hitler Youth) and 4H Clubs (another bastion of Republican hate). Not to mention they have worked with the ACLU (another GOP front) in the past as well.

Why I am a member.

In the wake of hurricane Katrina, local law enforcement literally went door to door confiscating people's firearms. "Only law enforcement are allowed to have weapons. We're going to take all the weapons."-P. Edwin Compass III, Supt. of Police. Not so they would prevent people from having firearms on the street, but in their own homes as well, so that NO ONE could protect themselves, their families and their homes in the wake of one of the worst natural disasters in our country's history with a firearm. A disaster as we all know where local and federal aid was almost nonexistent especially in the first week.

The response to the disaster was shameful. I believe that we can all agree that the majority of the citizens impacted by the disaster were minorities. So there you have a bunch of black people that the government seemingly did not give two shits about. Literally stuck in their homes with no 911 or aid that was coming in the near future. Instead of sending help, instead of letting people know what they needed to do, or where they needed to go, we had law enforcement going door to door, not to bring food or aid, but to take away one of the few means people had to protect themselves and families.

So we (our government) stripped (illegally in my mind) a minority of their constitutionally protected right in the wake of a disaster. You also have to realize that there are quite a few people who still to this day to receive their confiscated firearms back. How do you think this made me feel? I could very well be next, yes? In the wake of a disaster in my area, would law enforcement take away my firearms from my own home?

My NAACP did not stand up to this. My ACLU did not stand up for this. No, it was the NRA along with other similar groups who stood to protect the right of others like myself in the wake of a future disaster. Not only did they fight it, they fought it hard. The NRA did more for me and my people in the coming months than all the other civil rights groups that I am a member of. So I did what I saw was right, and I joined. Thanks goodness in the wake of the Katrina debacle my state (on its own) took legislative steps to ensure that something like that cannot happen in my state.

And with that I have all of the benefits that come along with it. Discounts, rebates, meets, training, etc. I am glad I am a member, and I am glad that more and more of the leaders of my party are shifting to a pro 2nd stance.

Believe what you want about the NRA, but you are just beating your head off the wall of your own delusions.

[X_Digger]

287. Thus speaketh the arbiter..

[DonP]

300. That is f'ing priceless! But save it for future use too.

The names change, but the pompous ass attitude of elitist, "holier and smarter than thou" superiority is forever.

The usual cycle. as yet unbroken, is one of them comes down here and discovers the "Gungeon" and based on their extensive study of bumper stickers proceed to use the same five quotes from Kellerman, Brady, Sugarman, Daley, Feinstein et. al. Eventually they find that Dems that enjoy shooting are generally "malevolently well informed" on the actual laws and the DoJ, CDC and FBI statistics.

We are immediately challenged, usually rudely and often, that "anyone that believes (fill in the blank) can't be a real progressive".

Then they get frustrated, start calling names and using personal attacks as a standardized response. Next thing they are foaming at the mouth, because no one agrees with their obvious superior knowledge and thinking.

Followed shortly be their repeated deletions and ultimate departure.

I think your new sign should be a standardized warning shot across their bow as they rear their pointy little heads.

[friendly_iconoclast]

291. Kicking- because it says more about the OP (and supporters) than it does about the NRA.

Interesting what people will say or do when confronted with facts...

[Euromutt]

294. There's a problem with your "anti-abortion liberal" analogy (and the rest of your logic sucks too)

Namely, that someone who takes an anti-abortion stance argues for the restriction of individual liberties on the grounds that failing to do will result in the avoidable and undesirable termination of human life. That is precisely the position taken by proponents of increased restriction on private firearms ownership. Your analogy would have worked better if you'd taken a pro-choice Goldwater Republican debating whether to give money to NARAL knowing that NARAL would almost certainly oppose any candidate whose economic policies you agreed with, but was anti-choice.

I would never join a anti-abortion group that would help defeat good democrats that were trying to implement other progressive causes. <...> If you do that you must be a SINGLE ISSUE voter and it would mean anti-abortion or pro-guns is the MOST IMPORTANT issue to you and health care, gay/lesbian, helping the needy, etc did not matter as much as the ONE issues you support.

The one does not follow from the other. Whether or not I am a single-issue voter depends on one thing, namely how I vote; it is not determined by which advocacy groups I give money to.

I also rather suspect you don't (or at the time of writing did not) fully grasp how the NRA-PVF's system of endorsements work. Giving one candidate a higher grade does not automatically mean the NRA endorses that candidate. By way of example, let's look at some of the elections that I, as a resident of Washington state's 9th District, got to vote in in 2008:

Governor: Chris(tine) Gregoire (D, incumb): C-, Dino Rossi (R, chall): A
The NRA-PVF did not endorse either candidate (and I voted for Gregoire, who won).

U.S. Representative, 9th District: Adam Smith (D, incumb): C, James Postma (R, chall): AQ (appears pro-gun based solely on answers to NRA questionnaire)
The NRA-PVF did not endorse either candidate (and I voted for Smith, who won).

State Rep, 47th District, Position 1: Geoff Simpson (D, incumb): D, Mark Hargrove (R, chall): A
NRA-PVF endorsed Hargrove (and I voted for Simpson, who won)

State Rep, 47th District, Position 2: Pat Sullivan (D, incumb): A-, Timothy Miller (R, chall): A
NRA-PVF endorsed Sullivan (despite the lower score, he has a proven pro-RKBA track record), whom I voted for, and who won.

Coming up this year is the U.S. Senate seat currently held by Patty Murray (D). Murray got an F from the NRA-PVF last time round, and there's no reason to assume she'll do any better this time. There are four people running for Republican candidate, all men with vague platforms mostly of fiscal responsibility, but the coded language about "family" makes me suspect that they are, to a man, anti-choice and anti-equal rights for GLBTs. So I'm going to be voting for Murray, even though she's hardly my ideal candidate, and not just on guns (the ACLU gave her a 60% score six years ago, indicating a "mixed record" on other civil liberties), but she's pro-choice, pro-separation of church and state, pro-domestic partnerships, pro-treating immigrants like human beings, all of which are important to me, and perhaps most importantly, I'm proud to live in a state with two woman U.S. senators.

Now, do you want to tell me that my votes don't determine whether or not I'm a single-issue voter, but that the NRA membership card in my range bag does? Gimme a fucking break.

[The Green Manalishi]

296. If you don't support the right to RKBA you are NOT a progressive.

I support the NRA *AND the ACLU.
Neither goes far enough. Both organizations are far too tame and afraid of taking on nanny state nazis.

[eqfan592]

303. Wow, how very high-minded and arrogant of you.

First of all, you seem to think that people need to justify themselves to you in order to pass as "real" progressives that support "real" progressive causes. This is not, in fact, the case. Nor are you the final authority on what passes as a "real" progressive cause.

Honestly, how could expect any sort of positive outcome from this thread? And really, why would it be surprising that people who post in this forum and are passionate about this issue would post mainly here? I believe strongly in promoting renewable energy, and have posted on occasion on this topic. But this is an issue that the vast majority of progressive democrats are already in support of, and outside of the occasional debate about the merits of nuclear energy, there isn't too much going on there.

However, issues surrounding firearms is another story all together. I view the Democratic party's view on firearms to be in direct opposition to progressive ideals, because I believe that supporting and protecting the rights of citizens to own and carry firearms IS a progressive ideal, and always has been. And beyond that, the evidence has clearly shown that overly strict regulation of firearms has done nothing to actually reduce the violent crime rate. The violent crime rate, in fact, would appear to be affected by just about everything else BUT firearms ownership rates. Because of this (and other reasons), I (and others) feel strongly that Democrats and progressives must finally wake up to these facts, so that we can get back to solving the real issues behind violent crime (such as poverty and poor education). We must stop burning our political capital supporting legislation that only damages our image in the eyes of the majority of Americans while accomplishing next to nothing in the area of crime prevention.

And all of that notwithstanding, the government cannot possibly guarantee the safety of every citizen of this nation, and given that firearms are the best means of defense for the vast majority of people, keeping citizens from having access to this means of defense is immoral and unethical.

[Glassunion]

306. Pssst... Do the following names mean anything to you? Your entire post is bullshit to me.

(D ) *DAVID HALEY
(D ) *CHRIS STEINEGER
(D ) *LAURA KELLY
(D ) *ANTHONY HENSLEY
(D ) *JANIS K. LEE
(D ) *DOUG GATEWOOD
(D ) *ROBERT "BOB" GRANT
(D ) *JULIE MENGHINI A
(D ) *SHIRLEY J. PALMER
(D ) *BILL FEUERBORN
(D ) *JERRY D. WILLIAMS
(D ) *GENE RARDIN
(D ) *STAN FROWNFELTER
(D ) *LOUIS E. RUIZ
(D ) *TOM BURROUGHS
(D ) *MARGARET LONG
(D ) *MIKE PETERSON
(D ) *BARBARA W. BALLARD
(D ) *PAUL T. DAVIS
(D ) *HAROLD LANE
(D ) *STEVE LUKERT
(D ) *JERRY HENRY
(D ) *VINCENT WETTA
(D ) *RAJ GOYLE
(D ) *JIM WARD
(D ) *MELODY MCCRAY - MILLER
(D ) *TOM SAWYER
(D ) *TERRY MCLACHLAN
(D ) *JOSHUA SVATY
(D ) *EBER PHELPS
(D ) *DENNIS MCKINNEY

Yeah, f'ing Tom sayer baby! These are all Dems, all of them were endorsed by the NRA. All of them were from Kansas. A good portion of them still received an endorsement from the NRA even though they were graded lower by the NRA. Not to mention the 90% thingy again, but it was closer to a 60 / 40 split. So, your entire post holds zero weight with me. You fabricated stats, and lied through the entire thing. Way to go... Give yourself a cookie.

[Ter]

310. Easy, they are only against those who oppose them

It so happens that a majority of Democrats support gun-control. They support whoever is more pro-gun. Solution? Democrats need to be pro-gun, and we'll get their support.

See, now wasn't that easy?

[knownothing]

311. Do you support the Bill of Rights

or just parts of it?

I support the entire Bill of Rights, and by and large, Democrats are more on board with it than Republicans are. However, that doesn't mean that I am not displeased with some Democrats refusal to support people being able to own the most effective means of being able to defend themselves.

But you're talking about a single issue organization here, one that isn't Republican or Democrat. It just so happens that, at the moment, Republicans have figured out that talk of banning guns is political suicide, and Democrats haven't figured that out quite yet (though I think they are coming close after 2000 and 2004, did you notice how little Obama talked about the 2nd Amendment this past election?).

[knownothing]

312. Divide and conquer

Here's a question for you: Is it easier for Democrats to win elections if gun owners vote for them or against them?

In other words, a progressive is a progressive, whether he/she is a gun owner or not, and chances are, he/she agrees with you on such things as green energy, reproductive rights, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, welfare, health care, and numerous other issues.

How does differing from the party line (if indeed, being anti-gun still is the Democratic party line after Gore and Kerry lost to Bush because of that) make a person any less a progressive than you, especially since I'm sure there's some issues that you disagree with the Democratic Party on?