butylated hydroxytoluene:a proven,potent.anti-viral agent:Hep-C,AIDS

[DEMVET-USMC]

Herpes virus 1 and 2 and a very many other viral diseases in humans and other animals. I just spent three and one half hours and lost my posting attempting to use spell check. I am going to forego the history leading up to my conclusions and simply state my concepts on how this compound works.I copywrited a booklet describing my origial ideas resulting from test results re: my former hepatitis C infection and my own independent research. It is worth noting that the Hep-C and AIDS viruses are structualy simular and if I am CORRECT BHT should work as well as a treatment for AIDS as Hep-C. My concept is that BHT and simulular compounds generate free radical and ionic reactions intracellularilly when imbedded or in contact with viruses. Cells have the ability to deactivate free radical and ionic reactions, viruse do not.Also it is important to note that I beleive these reactions will take place throughout the inner surfaces of the entire cardiovascular system. The cardiovascular system is constantly renewing itself. We have to achieve a balance here: destroy the viruses without harming the cardiovascular system. Most people develope cardiovascular deposit problems leading to very serious health problems.I never take more than 250mg PER DAY. I TAKE IT WITH WATER ON AN EMPTY STOMACH IN THE MORNING BEFORE I EAT. Lets kick this idea around here. Clinical studies have been done. To find them type in a google search using the words: butylated hydroxytoluene+antiviral. These are the words that work. Using current rules as to nomenclature this compound would be named: 2,4 tert-butyl 1 hydroxy 4 methyl benzene. I will not risk another spell check, any typos will have to be left as is. ...Oscar

[Leprechan29]

1. One thing -

Free radicals can damage DNA in normal cells as well as viruses and others, but how would a molecule that large get into a body cell, much less attack a virus?

[DEMVET-USMC]

2. A BHT molecule is not that large.For instance a vitamin E molecule is

considerably larger and is absorbed, Good question, keep them comimg.

[DEMVET-USMC]

3. Also ,as I stated,all cells have of necessity evolved the mechanisms

to deactivate free radical and ionic reactions. These chemical entities arise as a normal phase of oxygen metabolism. Viruses have no such mechanisms.

[DEMVET-USMC]

5. I stated the reactions that take place are intracellular.

That means they take place outside of a living cell, BHT MOLECULES cannot destroy viruses that have already invaded a cell,but they can and do destroy viruses in the blood stream and other intracellular fluids.Thereby preventing te infestation of other cells. ...You asked some excellent questions... Oscar

[DEMVET-USMC]

45. I WAS WRONG, THESE REACTIONS TAKE PLACE INTERCELLULARLY

Which does mean between the cells which is what I was said, but used the wrong word to indicate such. Apologies, ...Oscar

[DEMVET-USMC]

128. A BHT molecule is not that large. Compare it to the size of a Vitamin E

molecule. Please, check out what you are saying before criticizing what I have to say. Vitamins of all types cannot be synthesized in the body and are absorbed by definition. ..Oscar

[DEMVET-USMC]

4. I am sorry,I do have an appointment I do have to keep I am checking out

now , but do hope for future questions and will answer them. 6:30 A.M.EASTERN TIME. ...OSCAR

[cosmicdot]

6. independent of Big Pharma, Durk Pearson & Sandy Shaw

have been on the leading edge of many things, including BHT ...

they should head up the FDA

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=BHT+Durk+Pearson+and+sandy+Shaw

[DEMVET-USMC]

7. Hi cosmicdot, I agree, Pearson and Shaw should head up FDA.

Or some like mindd people that are trully interested in low cost treatments and wellbeing protocols for a healthier people in general. They are true sceintists and leaders in the field of staying healthy. Finding out about BHT saved my life. I had a serious case of Hep-C wich led me into the research of this compound. I always ask myself,how does it work? Part of this comes from being a maintanencece man,auto mechanic,etc.. You really have to know how it works to diagnose the problem and come up with a solution. ...Oscar

[treepig]

8. i mentioned this on the other thread, but apparently to no avail

but really, you'd be seriously well advised to stop relying on google as a source of scientific information.

to start, BHT is firmly established to be an anti-oxidant and to have radical-scavenging properties. your premise is based on exactly the opposite conjecture, namely that BHT generates reactive oxygen species (ROS, for short) - that's just plain wrong.

also, if you'd bother consulting reputable sources of scientific information, such as the national institute of health's PUBMED search engine:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/

you'd find that plenty is already known about the anti-viral activity of BHT. this activity is apparently derived from two sources:

1) BHT has the ability to intercalate into membranes and alter their biophysical properties by changing their fluidity and temperatures at which phase transitions take place; such effects are alluded to in the following paper:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=6841461

in general cells can modulate membrane fluidity by increasing or decreasing cholestrol content (for example), by contrast, a virus can't do this. therefore, as you postulate (but for an incorrect reason) it is possible that BHT can selectively damage a virus while avoiding harming a living cell.

but, direct damage to the virus does not seem to be the pre-dominant way that BHT-anti-viral effects are elicited. indeed, it has been known for 15+ years that BHT does not inactivate HIV when this virus is treated with this compound outside the body

Claeys H, Mercken M, Vermylen C.
HIV1-virus is not inactivated by buthylated hydroxytoluene (BHT) in vitro.
Med Hypotheses. 1988 Oct;27(2):145-6.

now, the above paper would seem to put the final nail in the coffin of your hypothesis. instead, there's a completely different cellular mechanism now believed to account for BHT's anti-viral effects:

2)BHT can counteract cellular redox imbalances during viral infection:

consider the following

Human immunodeficiency virus (HIV)-infected individuals are suffering from systemic oxidative stress. Reactive oxygen species act as second messengers for the activation of nuclear factor-kappaB (NF-kappaB), which augments the replication of HIV. Intracellular levels of glutathione (GSH), a major cytosolic antioxidant, in T cells decrease during the disease progression. Another redox-regulating molecule, thioredoxin (TRX), is also transiently down-regulated in the cells by acute HIV infection.

from: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12215212

basically, what that's saying is that the presence of ROS enhances the replication of virus within a cell. somehow, HIV (in this case) can shut down the cell's protective mechanisms against ROS, thereby enhancing their own replication. now, if BHT is added to the system, it can take the place of the normal cellular anti-oxidants and scavenge the ROS - thus reducing the ability of the virus to replicate. clearly, that gives the cell a big advantage in battling the virus.

so the bottom line is that BHT most likely has anti-viral effects precisely because it does the opposite of what you postulate. specifically, it is an anti- (not a pro-)oxidant, and it works inside, not outside, a cell.

just like the x-files - the truth is out there. unlike the x-files, it's really not that hard to find. in any event, i have no idea why you continue to post foolishness, for now i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're actually trying to learn something (although it's becoming increasingly difficult to accept that . . )

[DEMVET-USMC]

10. You are absolutely wrong when you say I do Googles for my scientific

knowledge. I do not. The basic concepts I present in this forum are my own. Give one example of me referring to a web site to back up a statement. As far as I know they do not exist. That is one of the differences between an original idea and common or general knowledge.I am the only reference so there is no one to refer to. There are a very few times when I will Quote a reference from a textbook and at one time a N.Y. Times Magazine article. You are the one who often gives me a website as a reference. And whether you believe it or not, I am always grateful, as you have given me a place to go to learn things I did not know before. This latest proposition I presented in this forum regarding BHT as an effective treatment for a broad range of viral diseases I have been working on since early on in 1998. This discovery is not mine. That credit belongs to: Snipes,Person, Keith , and Cupp. This is because they discovered the phenomenon. What I have done is to explain it. If you can find an earlier reference to my conclusions than 1998 let me know as that is when I copyrighted my work. You made a few interesting statements but as always you are referring to other peoples` work and frankly your interpretation of what they saying has nothing to do with what I am saying.I will refer you to one short quote from C.Mathews and K.E van Holde`s: BIOCHEMISTRY page:535 quote" In some cases the production of reactive oxygen species is not a metabolic accident,but a normal part of the functioning of a cell. For example, certain white blood cells contribute to defense against infectious agents by phagocytosis. Such cells can literally engulf a bacterial cell. This event is followed by a respiratory burst,a rapid increase in oxygen uptake, stimulated by mechanisms still under study. Much of this oxygen is reduced to superoxide ion and to H2O2. These compounds contribute to killing of the engulfed bacterium. Thus,while most cells contain elaborate mechanisms to protect against toxicity of reactive oxygen species, the respiratory burst involves a deliberate and controlled production of these species." end quote: What I am Talking about is a direct chemical attack on these viruses. It is has nothing to do with the immune systems ability to identify them. I have to bring this response to an end because of my time restraints. I Will pick up my conversation with hydrogen abstraction and the generation of free radical and ionic reactions. I truly was hoping you would keep an open mind regarding this very important topic because you are the chemistry professor who could jointly, as equals put together the sort of paper I wish to regarding all this. I have some truly amazing results that are documented as to a Hep-C RNA test and many other medical records . Also, I do have my copy-written manuscript dated 1998. Any other works using my ideas would be provable plagiarism. ...Oscar P.S. my mail box is open if you wish to talk to me

[treepig]

12. ok, i'll go for a slight retraction

with that being that google-found scientific information is better than none at all. my beef with google is that at pretty much any time you can find threads not too far down the list with information such as "chernobyl killed 40,000 people and caused 475,000 cases of cancer" - yup, that's from a google-search. but if you do a search of the peer-reviewed literature, the real values are 40-50, and 2-3,000, respectively.

otoh, plenty of valid information can be found from google searches, as long as it is critically evaluated. btw, you did include the following statement in your original post:

Clinical studies have been done. To find them type in a google search using the words: butylated hydroxytoluene+antiviral. These are the words that work.

perhaps my reading comprehension is not what it should be, but somehow i interpreted that statement as an indication that you obtained scientific information from google. in any event, by doing a google search on exactly the key words you suggest, i find the following:

If BHT is so effective against lipid-enveloped viruses, why don’t doctors prescribe it for their patients? The answer is that almost none of the controlled studies on the antiviral properties of BHT have been performed on humans; most of the experiments thus far have been conducted in lab dishes (in vitro) or in animals. A human clinical trial of BHT cannot be performed because the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has approved BHT for use only as a food preservative, not as a medicine

http://www.delano.com/Articles/BHT-antiviral.html

therein lies a perfect example of using google for science or medical information - you find one thing, i find exactly the opposite. who knows what's correct? to avoid this type of ambiguity, it's wise to use peer-reviewed papers - that means they've been anonymously vetted by at least two experts in the field to ensure their accuracy. that doesn't mean they're always ultimately correct - new information may emerge that shows they're not, but at the time of publication, they're they best represent reality. unfortunately, no matter how brilliant and original a thinker you may be, you lose credibility when you present ideas that have been proven to be false in peer-reviewed scientific studies. consider that your theory predicts that BHT has anti-AIDS viral activity when HIV is treated with it outside of a cell. as i've previously stated by citing this research:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=3200173

this idea has already been tested in the laboratory and found to be false. therefore, if you continue to build a theory around blatantly false information, it loses all credibility. perhaps it appears i'm being overly harsh and picking on you, but you just can't ignore established scientific facts and blithely go on building a scientific theory on nothing but your own fantasies. copy-written or not, such a manuscript is hardly worth the electrons it took to write it, much less sacrificing any trees for it if you've actually chosen to print it out.

instead of needlessly, and sillily re-inventing the wheel, a simple consultation of PUBMED, as i'll outline in a separate post, can re-construct the story of the anti-viral activity of BHT.

[DEMVET-USMC]

18. You are the one who is always presenting me with googled results

as you did twice in this posting. By the way I read many of them and often learn from them. ...Oscar

[treepig]

19. one result was from google

and was merely used as an example of why googled-results are unreliable.

the other link was from PUBMED (as are the vast majority of those i have posted in this thread), not GOOGLE.

i've patiently explained the difference, but apparently if one chooses to live in one's own fantasy world, such trivialities as reliability and actual experimental results are not important.

[DEMVET-USMC]

20. I am not reinventing anything. I am giving the only reasonable explanation

out there as to how exactly BHT works. The next hint in this regard is that BHT in an aqueous environment such as the blood stream which is also buffered to base with a pH value of 7.2 to 7.3 with 7 being pure water. It is significantly basic as this is a scale where the difference between 7 and 8 is tenfold.

[treepig]

27. dr. weird suggests community college

generously, i see.

i suspect you're one of the few people on the planet who would characterize a pH value of 7.3 as "significantly basic"

at this pH the concentration of "base" (i.e, OH- ions) in an aqueous solution is ~2x10(e-7) M. the concentration of water (i.e., H2O molecules) is 55.5 M.

that means that approximately one out of every 277,500,000 molecules present is a "base" (i.e., an OH- ion) - somewhat underwhelming indeed.

now if you were at, say pH = 13, one out of every 555 or so molecules would be a "base" - now that is "significantly basic"

you do see that there's a HUGE difference here, i trust - 555 is about the number of people who fit onto a 747 - 277,500,000 is the number of people in the entire usa - but perhaps you could come up with a copywritten manuscript about how these numbers don't ring true in your personal experience, therefore they surely can't be trusted?

[DEMVET-USMC]

99. What you fail to note is that these hydroxide ions would be magnetically

drawn to the tertiary hydrogens.Upon further research I learned human bloods pH value is about 7.5, or 2/5s more basic than I previously stated. Regardless, the fact that a tertiary hydrogen is a relatively positively charged hot spot will draw whatever negatively charged hydroxide ions there are to it. Also, the tertiary structure of the tert-butyl group significantly weakens the C-H bonds of these tertiary hydrogens because the electrons are drawn towards the central carbon of the t-butyl group because carbon has a larger electronegative value of 2.55 than hydrogen`s 2.20. Average bond dissociation enthalpies for C-H bonds in ethane = 98 kcal per mole. Whereas a tert butyl groups hydrogens dissociation value on this scale is 81 kcal per mole for a tert-butyl hydrogen, on a t-butyl ethane molecule. ...Oscar

[treepig]

101. does this diagram mean anything to you?

in any event, i see you're now abandoning the mechanism proposed in post #34 and going back to the one in post #29.

hint: the diagram explains both why gasoline doesn't spontaneously combust and why your proposed reaction will not occur (i haven't bothered to calculate the enthalpy of your BHT reaction, but i suspect it's not even negative, which further complicates things for you).

[DEMVET-USMC]

103. The graph shows an energy hump must be overcome from some energy

source for the reactants to react with each other, and form a new compound, or as is often the case compounds. In a laboratory or factory, the energy source is usually heat. Another example would be the radiant energy from the sun, which generates photosynthesis in plants and can also be used to generate other reactions by say a chemist, whatever. Many chemical reactions do not have an energy hump to overcome for the reactants to react. A well known one is to add baking soda, this compound is basic with a pH value of about 9 which is 2 whole numbers higher than 7 and that is what makes it basic as opposed to acidic which brings me to our next reactant for this simple experiment which is vinegar. Vinegar is a mixture that contains enough acetic acid < CH3COOH > to give it a pH value of 3. For a full explanation of acids and bases using the pH scale go to: < http://web.jjay.cuny.edu/~acarpi/NSC/7-ph.htm >. Any way the chemical reactions that take place, do so spontaneously. There is no energy hump to overcome under normal conditions. It is my hypothesis that a related, in some ways, reaction takes place with BHT therapy. The reactions with BHT involve the hydroxide ion < OH- > as does this simple experiment. The mixture of vinegar and baking soda react spontaneously and do not require any energy input.

[treepig]

107. ok, so a hydroxide ion is involved in both cases

but, by using that level of logic, a case could be made that there is no difference between a 2-year old's tricycle and the space shuttle because they both have wheels.

considering that you refuse to ackowledge (or actually don't know) that there's a vast difference between acid-base equilibrium "reactions" that occur when you mix a weak acid with a weak base in water - and attempting to perturb the completely inert "tertiary hydrogens" of BHT - i repeat my suggestion that it would be best for everyone if you'd respectfully stop posting this nonsense in the "science" forum.

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrWeird]

136. Oscar, since you don't know how BHT works, I'll just tell you.

Lord knows I gave you plenty of time to reply to my challenge in post #115. Since you didn't give a legitimate answer, I'll just tell you.

BHT does NOT react with oxygen. You can have BHT sitting out on your shelf for months, it won't react with oxygen. You can pass pure oxygen through a vial of BHT, it won't react with oxygen.

As is the exact opposite of what you just wrote, oxygen reacts faster with fats and oils than it does with BHT. That's why if you got butter out on your shelf, it goes rancid, while nothing happens with BHT.

Here's what happens. Oxygen reacts with enyzmes. Or sometimes with Fe2+, often in heme. There are otherways to do it, like ozone, but regardless, oxygen in biological material can form hydrogen peroxide. Now the thing about hydrogen peroxide is, it's unstable. It forms two hydroxyl radicals. A hydroxyl radical will extract a hydrogen atom (note the usage, we are now talking about radical chemistry instead of acid/base chemistry) from a lipid. So now we've got a lipid radical. Through a few more steps the lipids become lipid peroxy radicals, but the details aren't important.

We've completed the initiation step of our radical chain reaction. Now on to the propagation step.

Our lipid peroxy radical is now free to tear up other lipids, generating more lipid radicals. These lipid radicals generate more lipid radicals. And that's where the chain reaction is at. This is where your fats and oils go rancid. The radicals will keep propagating until the radical chain is terminated.

Now, there's two ways to terminate it. You could run out of the fats and oils. Or you could add an antioxidant, like vitamin C, or BHT.

A lipid radical can come along, and abstract a hydrogen atom (again, we're talking radical chemistry) from the PHENOLIC position of BHT. And that's what stops the lipid radicals from propagating. Because now you can delocalize the phenolic radical into the aromatic ring, thereby stabilizing it.

And that's how BHT works. BHT doesn't react with oxygen. LIke we told you earlier, you don't need oxygen to have an antioxidant. It doesn't "generate ionic and radical reactions."It doesn't have anything to do with the t-butyl protons (or "tertiary hydrogens" like you like call them, for whatever reason). It doesn't have to do with "hydroxylated BHT" whatever that it. It doesn't react with acid in the stomach. It doesn't react with base in the blood.

This is how BHT works.

[DEMVET-USMC]

138. Please answer me this, why would they pack those bulky tert-butyl

groups onto the para methyl phenol molecule<1,hydroxy4,methyl benzene if you prefer >to begin with. There is a tremendous amount of steric hindrance at the hydroxy group with 2 bulky tert-butyl groups on the ring carbons on both sides of the hydroxyl < OH > group. I do know about free radical chemistry. Part of what you just posted is what I have been trying to get you people to understand. You have a virus that has lipid structures as part of its outer coating. Once these free radical reactions are set in motion they do not stop until they meet another free radical. It`s so simple. And cells have of necessity evolved the mechanisms to deactivate free radical and ionic reactions. You have it backwards. BHT in water becomes hydroxylated BHT. BHT is so inexpensive,spend ten dollars and buy some. Do some experiments of your own. The literature discusses BHT anti-oxidant properties as meaning to combine with oxygen not referring to REDOX reactions. I found some good sites I guess you did not bother to read them.You can do a google, just type in butylated hydroxytoluene+antioxidant and read for yourself. You are so stubborn you will not event try and hear what someone else has to say. Do that experiment I suggested. Really all you need is a wine bottle some BHT and A funnel. You could have a lot more fun with a microscope. Nothing fancy required. Put the funnel in the bottle add 1 gram of powderized BHT. I use a porcelain bowl and a stainless steal spoon to grind up the crystals. Rinse mouth out good. Chew on some BHT because it stimulates saliva production. Now spit a couple of mouthfuls of saliva in the funnel and add the water. A tiny amount of salt may or may not be required. I usually add like one little shake and I mean little of regular table salt: sodium chloride. Now shake the bottle up and let it stand for a couple of days. Give the mixture a shake every once in a while. At first a bunch of BHT will float to the surface but over time it starts to settle to the bottom because it is no longer BHT but hydroxylated BHT with perhaps some double oxygens on the tertiary carbons. Why not give it a try. You can buy BHT on the web as I am sure you know. ...Oscar

[DrWeird]

142. Oscar, the t-butyls could be there for two reasons.

One it could help stabilize the phenyl radical, but more likely it's just there make the BHT soluble in fats and oils.

Despite the bulky t-butyls, there's still plenty of room for lipid radicals to abstract the phenolic hydrogen atom.

"You have a virus that has lipid structures as part of its outer coating. Once these free radical reactions are set in motion they do not stop until they meet another free radical. It`s so simple."

right, or BHT. So if anything BHT would help the virus, according to your model, since it prevents the destruction of the lipids.

Yes, Oscar, cells have defenses against radicals. They work the same way BHT does. But these defenses aren't 100% effective against radicals, you still get radical damage. That's why people recommend vitamin C.

"The literature discusses BHT anti-oxidant properties as meaning to combine with oxygen not referring to REDOX reactions."

Mmm, no, it doesn't. BHT doesn't react with oxygen. You may have read it somewhere on the internet, but it's not true. Here's a hint Oscar. Not everything you read on the internet is true.

Oh, and Oscar, here's another hint. You don't do chemistry by spitting in things and watching what happens.

[DEMVET-USMC]

143. Hi TP,spitting,adding saliva to the BHT and water mixture is the only way

I have found to make it miscible with water and I believe it to cause in some way not understood by me yet, to undergo what I believe is hydroxylation. Do keep in mind, there is always a significant amount of saliva present in the stomach. Part of what my work involves is recreating the environment BHT is exposed to in vivo, in vitro. So surely exposing BHT to saliva is very relevant. Instead of being so negative about all this try some of the simple experiments I have suggested. There is something big and important regarding the treatment of viral diseases going on with BHT therapy and a growing number of people are realizing it. I also have good reason to believe it will prove to be an effective treatment for cardiovascular conditions resulting from unhealthy deposits throughout the entire cardiovascular system. and also it is capable of cleaning tars and other deposits from lung tissue. The reason I say this is that prior to my self treatment with BHT therapy for the hepatitis infections < Hep-B and Hep-C > I had also developed some degree of congestive heart failure and had calcium deposits in my lungs from an earlier tuberculosis infection and a condition commonly referred to as : black lung disease. All these conditions cleared up within 1 year of my starting BHT therapy. I had alot of infected blood transfused into me during the Viet Nam war. They were using a lot of blood at that time and did not have the screening methods they do today. Also they had this reckless protocol of mixing a very many peoples blood together to process it. Anytime you had event 1 unit of blood or blood products transfused into you,you stood a good chance of picking up any number of infections. A unit was 1 pint at that time. I had a total of 17 units of whole blood and packed cells transfused over time. So by the end of my adventures in Viet Nam I had all kinds of infections that I carried but no longer do. ...Oscar

[treepig]

144. think you're getting me confused with Dr.Weird

personally, i've given up given you scientific advice.

however, i'm still open to testing your experiments. for example, making that ammoniated asphalt water you discussed on the other thread. it's taken me a few days to respond, because on the surface it seemed a bit dangerous to mix ammonia with melted asphalt, but my fears were allayed upon purchase and study of the following information which made no mention of it being dangerous to do so:

VA-26D Safe Handling of Hot Asphalt (DVD)
Price: $40.00
Item Code: VA26D
Learn the best practices for safely loading, transporting, unloading and storing hot asphalt. A must for anyone working in the asphalt industry! See how to safely load hot asphalt into a tanker-truck using proper safety PPE (personal protective equipment). Pick up critical tips for safely transporting hot asphalt and learn about safe storage of hot asphalt. Related resources: VA-26V Safe Handling of Hot Asphalt Video and VA-26W Safe Handling of Hot Asphalt Workbook (1 workbook included).

http://204.183.84.205/store_product.asp?inve_id=151

incidently, that's the best $40 i ever spent.

then, my kid saw me chiseling asphalt off the driveway and went and reported me to my spouse who promptly put an end to my asphalt procurement activities. not to be thwarted i headed down to home depot to pick some up, but much to my chagrin, they sold both roofing and roadway asphalt - i found such a wide array of choices to be dizzingly stupefying, ane therefore sought advice from the helpful home depot associate.

when i mentioned i thought that roadway asphalt would be appropriate - since you mentioned you got yours from a parking lot - the associate suggested i consider paver bricks, instead of asphalt, to resurface my driveway. he even helpfully calculated that i'd need approximately 3,090 of them - and at only $0.87 each that'd be only slightly over $2,500. a bargain he said considering how much it would increase the value of my home.

so i stuck the bricks in the trunk of my car and in the backseat, and threw some plywood on the roof (that i needed for a separate project) and headed home. incidently, my car was a bit over-loaded, but live and learn i always say:



ok, so that's my progress report so far. i'm still working on getting a 55-gallon drum of ammonia so i can proceed with the asphalt ammonia water experiment (now a paving brick ammonia water experiment) but i'll be sure to keep everyone apprised of any future developments.

[DEMVET-USMC]

145. Stop: all I ever suggested was a 4 to 1 ratio of ammonia to asphalt.

1 cup of ammonia to 4 cups of asphalt. How you end up with a 55 gallon drum of asphalt I do not understand. Now ,if you want to do serious experiments along these lines use the already laid down and solidified asphalt. It is a mixture of asphalt, stones, gravel,whatever. Asphalt is very inexpensive. If you paid the price you say you did you got screwed big time. Now, stop and think but a moment: the ammonia is boiled off entirely. What is picked up when you wash over the ammonia treated asphalt with 1 cup of water is water soluble molecules of asphalt exposed to boiled off ammonia. I do predict that these molecules are relatively stable free radicals and ions. ...Oscar

[DEMVET-USMC]

146. TP, this is very important,however unscientific it sounds, this stuff works.

It works. It kills earth worms, ants and I have no idea what else. These are substantial organisms. I drink a cup or more at a time and it clears my mind, as to fatigue and such. Under the microscope this solution readily reacts with micro-organisms such as fruit fly worms and such. It is an amazing process to observe.This costs nothing to do except to buy some ammonia and get a chunk of tarvia where ever you can find it. ...Oscar

[Name removed]

151. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DEMVET-USMC]

155. Stop Joking and do it.

[treepig]

141. can't i be both?

oh well, that's a tough choice, let me think about it and i'll get back to you.

anyhow, suppose it's nice that you survived your brush with death to come back and hurl another round of insults and continue to regale us with your nutty homespun scientific wisdom.

[treepig]

14. the history of BHT and viruses

if you go to PUBMED ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed ), and do a search on butylated hydroxytoluene, you will get a list of 2249 research papers that have studied it. now, while you may not feel the need to be aware of this body of knowledge while formulating your theories, you should be aware that anyone evaluating your theories is likely to consult this information, and carefully scrutinize your work for any discrepancies. that's just how science works - as opposed to pulling any old theory out of one's ass and proclaiming it to be truth.

anyhow, if you go back to PUBMED and narrow the search by including the word virus, you get a more manageable number of papers returned, i just got 36. and conveniently enough they're listed chronologically, so it's easy to start at the beginning and trace the development of knowledge in this area.

as you've correctly stated, snipes, person, keith, and cupp published the first paper, in Science no less, proclaiming the anti-viral activity of BHT:

Science. 1975 Apr 4;188(4183):64-6.
Butylated hydroxytoluene inactivated lipid-containing viruses.
Snipes W, Person S, Keith A, Cupp J.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=163494

however, unlike you imply, in the almost 30 years since this paper was published, the mechanisms by which BHT provides protection against viruses have not remained unknown (and hence need explaining by you). rather, they have been pursued over the years, in some cases through avenues that ultimately ended up in dead-ends (but overall progress continued (and continues to this very day)):

for example, by 1983 it was known that BHT altered the properties of biological membranes:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=6841461

based on this information it was reasonable to assume that BHT damaged lipid-enveloped viruses, while outside of a cell, by direct chemical attack, just as you postulate (note: this was state-of the art thinking 20 years ago, an eternity in scientific terms, for you to be proposing it now is just a bit pathetic).

by 1988 however, studies had shown that BHT does not attack viruses as you propose, as evidenced by the already referenced lack of attenuation of HIV by in vitro BHT exposure:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=3200173

although science had taken a turn on a road that led to a dead-end (although it seemed reasonable at the time, and was supported by currently-available data), progress continued down different roads and by 2002 it was becoming apparent that BHT protects cells from viruses by serving as an anti-oxidant inside !!! a cell:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12215212

so what's the current state of knowledge in the year 2004 - well, clearly there is still much left unexplained and additional contributions are needed. but, if you wish to provide meaningful contributions yourself, you will need to get yourself out of the 1980's-dead-end you're currently in, bring yourself up-to-date on the latest thinking, and build on that. continued elaboration of ideas proven to be false two decades ago really isn't that productive . . .

[DEMVET-USMC]

17. My work is original and dates from 1997 and was copyrighted in 1998.

I have always figured things out for myself when I felt the answers being presented to me did not coincide with my experience

[DEMVET-USMC]

22. By the way Mr. Googler I am on the 1st page of those Google results

Everything you refer to I have already stated in previous postings. I have always given Snipes, Person, Keith, and Cupp credit for being the discoverors of the anti-viral properties of BHT and related compounds. ...Oscar

[treepig]

26. whatever, if any thing that demonstrates the my point about

how google results can be anything but reliable

when you appear on the first page of PUBMED results perhaps somebody will start taking you seriously.

until then, perhaps you could do us a favor and limit your postings to the "social policy" forum - since you seem to have absolutely no regard for the scientific process - which is to build on existing knowledge - perhaps you're aware of the concept of "standing on the backs of giants . . . "

btw, i'll presume to speak for dr. weird and state that both he/her and myself are quite aware of the properties of BHT in aqueous solutions. too bad you're not.

[DEMVET-USMC]

28. I am not interested in doing you or anyone else "favors"

You you say you know about "BHT in aqueous solutions" BUT GIVE NO INFORMATION AS TO HOW BHT BEHAVES IN AN AQUEOUS ENVIRONMENT. I WILL TELL YOU: As much as steric hinderance allows for those tertiary hydrogen atoms are abstracted and substituted by an O-H known as a hydroxy or hydroxyl group when the conditions are right. Keep in mind that blood and most inter-cellular fluids are buffered to base 7.2 to 7.3. That is significant as to reaction rates. Now you have a Bunch of oxygens hanging out there ,yes with a hydrogen attached to them. A water molecule has 2 hydrogens bonded to one oxygen and as I assume you know ,so called hydrogen bonding takes place and however momentarily they exist they play a vital role in the chemistry of life.It is my feeling that these highly hydrophobic BHT molecules by and large maintain thier original structure long enough to rapidly insert themselves into the lipid portions of the viruses and that at least enough of them behave in this manner that when the hydrogen abstraction begins they are there in suffcient concentrations for free radical and ionic reactions to initiate. Then , depending on how the hydrogen was abstracted any and perhaps all of the following reactions will take place.1. as a proton,you have a hydronium ion or proton donor which will latch onto any oxygen passing by and generate the sort of reactions associated with a Bronsted acid. 2. it can depart as a hydrogen atom with simular results such as polymerization. 3. A HYDRROXIDE ION, ALL OF THESE HIGHLY REACTIVE ENTITIES CAN AND WILL GENERATE chemical reactions a virus has no way whatso ever of stopping. The one raction I have observed readily transpiring is polymerization. These results can be reproduced in vitro by adding a little salt to the water and mixing it in with the BHT. Fruit fly worms make excellent subjects as they are covered with slimes which are lipids. I have other tests to propose but need to reveiw old notes I do not have at hand.I am moving and it is getting harder for me to put in long hours at the computer.ALSO AND SIGNIFICANTLY the point the hydrogens depart from become reaction sites. ...Oscar June 10,2004 six forty three P.M.

[treepig]

29. just to be clear on your statement

quoting you "As much as steric hinderance allows for those tertiary hydrogen atoms are abstracted and substituted by an O-H known as a hydroxy or hydroxyl group when the conditions are right."

is this what you have in mind?




ok, that's funny funny stuff



btw, slime consists of carbohydrates/polysaccharides (not lipids)

[DEMVET-USMC]

30. Laugh on, you will find out I am right. I never said all the hydrogens

would be abstracted,simply a suffecient number which could be 1,2,3to as many as 9 x 2 = 18. I fully expect it would depend on how the BHT MOLECULE inserts, and how close it is to other BHT molecules. It would not take many per molecule to destroy an entity as minute as a virus once initation begins. It is a chain reaction process: initiation, propagation ,termination. I do like your diagrams.Thanks T.P. ...Oscar

[treepig]

33. in your theory where "tertiary" hydrogen atoms are extracted

(even a single one of them, let alone all 18), i trust you have accounted for the following pKa values that establish that these protons would be absolutely the last to be extracted from BHT by hydroxide ions:

[treepig]

34. a bit of simple math can be your friend . . . .

for example, it can be used to undeniably, conclusively establish that a hypothesis is incorrect (and thus spare you the deep shame of posting complete crap on the web).

previously you proposed that a tertiary hydrogen is substituted by a hydroxyl, now you propose that in water at pH 7.4 the molecule shown on the right, below, is formed (and goes on to destroy viruses).





like i said earlier, that's funny, funny stuff (for some reason it still amuses me, i may be coming down with some type of viral infection myself, who knows?).

anyway, let's get to the math.

You eat 250 mg of BHT each day:

250 mg BHT @ 220.35 g/mol = 1.1346 mmoles (1.1346 x 10(e-3) moles)

or, if we want to determine the actual number of molecules, we multiply by 6.02 x 10(e23) and find that you ingest 6.83 x 10(e20) molecules of BHT each day. now, using basic chemical relationships, we can calculate exactly how many of these BHT molecules experience the abstraction of a tertiary hydrogen each day.

to do so, we will assume that all BHT dissolves in the blood (the most optimistic case), and we can determine the exact number of BHT molecules that have a tertiary hydrogen abstracted by hydroxyl ion by using this formula:

pKa = pH + log ( < undissociated acid > / < anion of the acid > )

we know (from reference tables) that the pKa of this proton is 50, and from your dedicated research, that the pH of blood is 7.4. plugging these values into the formula we get:

50 = 7.4 + log ( < undissociated acid > / < anion of the acid > )

we can simplify the equation by substracting 7.4 from each side:

42.6 = log ( < undissociated acid > / < anion of the acid > )

then, by raising each side to the power of 10, we get:

3.98 x 10(e42) = < undissociated acid > / < anion of the acid >

what this means is that under equilibrium conditions at pH = 7.4, one out of every 3.98 x 10(e42) BHT atoms will be in the virus-damaging ionic form that you hypothesize. but, you only eat 6.83 x 10(e20) molecules of BHT each day. consequently you’d have to eat 250 mg of BHT every day for about 5.83 x 10(e21) days, or about 100 billion times that age of the universe, for even one of your hypothetical anionic BHT molecules to be formed in aqueous solution at pH 7.4.

[DEMVET-USMC]

44. Your diagram indicates that just what I said would happen does happen.

On the right side of your diagrams it clearly shows one methyl group losing a proton and becoming a CH2 group with a formal charge of -1. This site alone would generate anionic polymerization. And where ever it abstracts a hydrogen or proton from another reaction site and on and on. Another aspect to all this I have not discussed before is that prior to entering the bloodstream the BHT molecules are going to be exposed to the relatively strongly acidic environment of the stomach. The gastric juice there with its high concentration of hydrochloric acid has a pH value of about 2. This information is paraphrased from Dr. Neil A. Campbell`s: BIOLOGY, SECOND EDITION page#800 paragraph# 1. ...Oscar ....TP please run that information through CHEMLAB or whatever program you are using and let the forum know what the results are. I have not been able to successfully load the program yet.

[DrWeird]

46. Yes, he drew the diagram for the sake of this discussion.

...to show how ridiculous your suggestion is. All of the other protons in the structure on the right would be removed before the one that you want to remove. You could mix BHT with pure sodium hydroxide and never in a million years will you remove that proton.

You say if this could be deprotonated, it would polymerize. How is it going to do that? What's the electrophile?

What's this about acid now? You want to know what will happen with BHT in an aqueous solvent of pH = 2? I can tell you what will happen. Nothing. There will be no reaction.

[DEMVET-USMC]

51. However the diagram was created it indicates exactly what type of

reaction I predicted. The abstraction of a proton from one or more of the tertiary hydrogens, leaving a reactive site capable of generating other reactive sites and on and on. If it is only one reactive site per BHT molecule during the initiation phase of these chain reactions so be it, that is enough. ...Oscar

[DrWeird]

57. Well, yeah. I can type out 2+4 = 37.

That doesn't make it true.

[treepig]

55. indeed it does happen, just like the calculations point out,

once every 100 billion billion years or so.

[NNadir]

56. So you object to the need for patience?

Wouldn't you be willing to wait even 100 billion years to cure your illness? ;-)

[treepig]

70. that's right, i have no patience

but that's ok, i'll just up my intake to several billion tonnes a day.

that should work just as well.

[NNadir]

72. You're looking better already.

OK, you're a little bloated, but otherwise, well, clearly your mood is better.

[DEMVET-USMC]

59. It is my understanding that the original purpose of the chemists who first

synthesized BHT for use as an anti-oxident for use in fuels and oils and later other foodstuffs. The whole idea as I understand it,was that BHT and other simualar compounds with tert-butyl groups attatched to a benzene ring were RELATIVELY more reactive to oxygen than the gasoline to prevent the build up of water, or other substances such as butter to delay rancidity with butter which is oxidation. The whole idea was that the BHT would combine more readily with the oxygen and prevent rancidity in butter and water sythesis in gasoline. How would adding a highly inert molecule as you seem to be sujesting BHT is, to say gasoline protect it from oxidation ? If what you seem to be saying is true it would simply be a highly inert solute mixed in with the gasoline. I read many chemistry books that state that the reaction order is: tertiary, secondary,primary. At least during oxidation reactions. Keep in mind that if you take the BHT the way people who suggest it`s use,250mg BHT capsule on an empty stomach in the morning that BHT is being exposed to a faily strongly acidic environment.With its high concentration of hydrochloric acid, the gastric juice has a pH of about 2.Those molecules are now hydroxylated BHT to one degree or another. Also,tertiary hydocarbon groups activate the ring making them more reactive not less. Maybe you should review so of your old textbooks instead trying to make me seem the fool. That notion of yours that chemical bonds cannot be broken by mechanical means is a good example. ...Oscar

[DrWeird]

63. Oscar, what you're doing is pseudoscience.

If you wind up seeming like a fool it's your own fault.

Nearly everything you've said in this forum is nonsense, you're just taking scientific terms and throwing them in one big pot, hoping that they might mean something, but it doesn't. Now all that is fine, but it belongs in the Meeting Room with the astrology threads. If you're going to post this stuff in the science forum, you have to expect it get shot down. Most people try to learn from there mistakes, all you're doing is pretending you're not making them, and then going on and making a bunch of others.

Nothing personal.

For example:

"The whole idea as I understand it,was that BHT and other simualar compounds with tert-butyl groups attatched to a benzene ring were RELATIVELY more reactive to oxygen than the gasoline to prevent the build up of water, or other substances such as butter to delay rancidity with butter which is oxidation. The whole idea was that the BHT would combine more readily with the oxygen and prevent rancidity in butter and water sythesis in gasoline."

Here you are rather cleary mixing up the "antioxidant", "oxidation", and oxygen. That's easy to do if you don't know anything about chemistry since they're spelled similarly, but they are very basic and important concepts and you should learn what they are before you try and have an intelligent conversation about them.

"I read many chemistry books that state that the reaction order is: tertiary, secondary,primary. At least during oxidation reactions."

This whole quote doesn't make any sense, tertiary, secondary, and primary what, carbons? What kind of reaction order? What the hell are you talking about?

"Keep in mind that if you take the BHT the way people who suggest it`s use,250mg BHT capsule on an empty stomach in the morning that BHT is being exposed to a faily strongly acidic environment.With its high concentration of hydrochloric acid, the gastric juice has a pH of about 2.Those molecules are now hydroxylated BHT to one degree or another."

As I said before, nothing happens to BHT in a pH 2 environment, it's unreactive. It doesn't get hydroxylated. Absolutely nothing happens to those t-butyl protons, they're like a rock.

"Also,tertiary hydocarbon groups activate the ring making them more reactive not less."

Do you mean the tert-butyl activates the ring, making the ring more reactive, or the ring activates the tert-butyl group, making the tert-butyl group more reactive. Do you understand the difference? More reactive how?

"Maybe you should review so of your old textbooks instead trying to make me seem the fool."

I've never known anybody to be more ignorant of basic chemistry concepts than you've shown in these threads, again nothing personal.

[DEMVET-USMC]

66. I am absolutely right about how BHT works as a preservative, here is

a link that explains it for you for with extensive links for you to confirm what they. And I do undeerstand that there are different meanings for the word oxidation. Here is the link why don`t you post all your nonsense there and see what sort of responses you get. That web address is: < http://chemistry.about.com/library/weekly/aa082101a.htm > So who is the fool now ? ...Oscar

[DrWeird]

67. Oscar, earlier you said BHT generated radicals.

The only thing you're getting right is the stuff we're correcting you on.

[DEMVET-USMC]

133. What I said was hydroxylated BHT was capable of generating ionic and

free radical reactions once embedded into the lipid structures of a virus. You have never corrected me about anything. You are the one who kept insisting there was no difference between a proton and a hydrogen atom. So my question for you is what holds an H2 molecule together ? Two protons, having like charges would have to repel each other. ...Oscar

[DEMVET-USMC]

104. "Those tertiary hydrogens are like a rock", have you bothered to read

anything about BHT ? It`s original purpose was to act as an anti-oxidant just the way I said it does, because it more readily combines with Oxygen than that which it is added to, in substances such as gasoline,butter,cereals,oils of types and on and on. Go here to learn about it for yourself instead of making such foolish statements as the one I mentioned. < http://chemistry.about.com/library/weekly/aa082101a.htm >.Like I said, maybe it is time you reread some of those old textbooks or new ones. ...Oscar

[DrWeird]

105. Oscar, I'm a chemist.

I know more about BHT then you just by look at its structure. BHT doesn't just react with oxygen. It's a radical scavenger, like I said all along, it is therefore an antioxidant and prevents radical induced oxidation.

That said, those "tertiary hydrogens" as you call them, are a rock. They don't react with anything. They don't react with base in the blood, they don't react with the acid in the stomach. they don't react with radicals, they don't react with oxygen. As we've said numerous times before, those hydrogens are the most stable part of the molecule.

[DEMVET-USMC]

106. Did you bother to read that link I provided ? You keep saying you are a

chemist but make statements like "those tertiary hydrogens are like a rock". You really need a refresher course or something because you don`t seem to know much about event entry level organic chemistry. ...Oscar

[DrWeird]

108. Yeah, I read your link.

And I didn't see anything that contradicted anything I've said. If there was something, please quote it and point it out.

Those "tertiary hydrogens" or t-butyl protons as most people would call them are like a rock. If you've got any evidence otherwise, or could even propose a reasonable mechanism as to how they would react, please do so, the burden of proof is on you.

And Oscar, I TEACH entry level organic chemistry, where as shown in your Avogadro threads, you don't understand high school level general chemistry. So I really don't think you're qualified to talk.

[DEMVET-USMC]

109. Suggesting that I further pollute Chem. language by using proton when I

mean a hydrogen atom is just that, continuing a practice that pollutes and misleads readers as to what the speaker, writer,teacher, whomever means. A proton is a proton and a hydrogen atom is a hydrogen atom. As you must know a proton is a particle with an electrical charge of +1. Whereas a hydrogen atom is an atom with 1 proton as its nucleus and 1 electron in its atomic or its molecular orbital and has a net electrical charge of 0. Proton +1 + electron -1 = 0. A proton is not a hydrogen atom . Surely you can understand that. ...Oscar

[DrWeird]

111. Oscar, most people use the term 'proton'.

Those little H's sticking off of everything are protons. Especially in the context of removing it with a base, that's called deprotonation.

And the problem with you calling them "tertiary hydrogens" isn't so much the hydrogen, as it is the tertiary. There's no such thing as a tertiary hydrogen. It's only got one fricking bond. The carbon is what's tertiary. And not the carbon with the protons, but the carbon those carbons are attached to.

[DEMVET-USMC]

114. Are you saying there is little if any difference between a proton and

a hydrogen atom ? Also, are you saying there is no such thing as a tertiary hydrogen ? Your statements are so indefensible I find it incomprehesible. Quote : " those little H`s sticking off of everyting are protons" and " there is no such thing as a tertiary hydogen" end quotes. If you actually do teach chemistry I pity your students. ...Oscar

[DrWeird]

115. I thought you were leaving for a few days.

Oh well, you can call them hydrogen atoms, or you can call them protons. If you homolytically cleave the C-H bond, you get a hydrogen atom; or if you consider it a coordinate covalent bond with a carbanion, it's a proton. You can use either term more or less interchangably.

Most organic chemists call them protons, since in most cases they react as protons. Usually they are deprotonated with a base, thus an H+, a proton, leaves. Less often you have a hydride ion (do you know what that is, oscar, without looking it up?) leave, and only very very rarely do you have an abstraction of a hydrogen atom, often younger chemistry grad students will invoke loss of a hydrogen atom, and they're almost exclusively incorrect.

In fact, treating those H's as a proton was what you were trying to accomplish earlier in the thread, when you wanted to remove one of those t-butyl protons with hydroxide, and form the carbanion. You even discussed how much of the electron density of the proton was shifted to the carbon atom, due to its electronegativity. While technically correct, in all practical senses the differences in electronegativity are small, and the C-H bond is considered a full covalent bond, not a polar bond. That's why oils are hydrophobic.

Now Oscar, I'm not making any of this stuff up. This is how real chemistry works. If you print this out and take it to any real chemist (not a new age quack, mind) and he will agree with me. Everything I've said is entirely defensible and I've got two hundred years of chemical literature to back it up. If you can't comprehend it, that's because you don't know anything about chemistry. Nothing personal, it's just obvious that you've never taken a class in chemistry and that's why I, and other people who actually have had chemistry classes, recommend you take it.

But enough is enough.

Oscar, I'm asking you to explain how BHT works. You've contradicted yourself a couple of times now, so I'm challenging you to put it all together and explain it cohesively. Don't just link again to that site about how BHT is a food preservative, we all know it is. I'm asking for a full explaination plus mechanism. That means structures and electron pushing. Do you know how to draw a real mechanism? You obviously don't have access to chem draw, so just do it free hand, scan it and post it.

Or you can link to a page which has your mechanism draw for you, if you can find it.

So what I'm expecting to see is a mechanism where the t-butyl protons are removed and replaced with hydroxyl ions. Since this is what you've said happens. So basically you want to oxidize each t-butyl methyl to the corresponding carboxylic acid (a carbon with three hydroxyls) It would be great if you could work radicals in there somehow, since you've said BHT both generates and traps radicals, but that's probably expecting to much.

Good luck.

And when you've done that, I'll be happy to show you how it actually works.

[DEMVET-USMC]

116. I know how real chemistry works, and a proton is not a hydrogen atom

it is a particle. A proton is a positively charged particle with a formal charge of +1. A hydrogen atom is a proton as its nucleus with an electron in its atomic or molecular orbital with a formal charge of -1. ...Oscar

[DrWeird]

117. A hydrogen atom is just a proton.

With a superfluous electron that usually doesn't do anything. Or a proton is just a hydrogen atom that's lost it's electron.

Regardless, most chemists refer to those H's as protons. Both because they react like protons, and are characterized using proton NMR.

But that's neither here nor there.

If you know how real chemistry works, then take the challenge. I've called you out, and it's your turn to show up once and for all how BHT works concisely?

Can you do it?

[DEMVET-USMC]

119. The way a radical, atom, or group is cleaved dictates how it will react or

not react. You should know this, and that you make light of just such things makes me wonder. ...Oscar

[treepig]

71. if you want to discuss science

you absolutely must incorporate a sense of scale and use precise definitions.

the notion of yours that chemical bonds can be broken by mechanical means (in the windhexe machine) is a perfect example.

in the other thread, which i'm sure no one wishes to revisit so i won't bother posting a link, you began the discussion mentioning the windhese machine breaks covalent bonds in biologically-derived materials. i maintained that if such material was pulverized in the windhexe machine, no covalent bonds would be broken - however, you then defined the ionic, van der Waals forces, and hydrogen bonds that hold organic molecules together as "chemical bonds" - ok, maybe that's fair enough, but you should have explicity stated that up front because precise definitions are highly important in scientific discussions!! (as has been pointed out in this thread, regarding your overly loose use of the term "oxidation")

then, using diamond as an example (if diamond can indeed be pulverized in a windhexe machine???), its pulverization would indeed break covalent bonds. however, only one in three thousand or so "chemical bonds" would actually be broken - that's hardly a "vast majority" - in fact i'd say it was a "tiny minority." the point i'm making here is that vague terms are not sufficient, instead actual numbers must be used!! if you use actual numbers, you can predict if an event, such as formation of a carbenium anion on the t-butyl group of BHT is going happen sufficiently often to have an impact on viral infections, or if it's only going to happen once in umpteenth billion years. if the latter is true (and it is), and you keep presenting a model based on clearly erroneous information, you're only making yourself seem the fool

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[treepig]

81. ok, the game's up

indeed, i'm a republican operative - and now i'm going to be taking all my new-found (i.e., stolen from you!! heheheh) understanding of chemistry to my evil co-conspirators in BIG PHARMA, and make a million bucks off your BHT ideas.

(too bad it's going to take a billion billion years to pay off, but hey, good things are worth waiting for).

btw, mother nature, not me, made science complex and complicated (but i'm nevertheless quite flattered you level this rather remarkable accusation against me . . .gives me a momentary ego boost)

p.s. extra credit question:

let's say you have a 50 kg block of BHT that you stick in the windhexe machine and it becomes fragmented into micron-sized particles. indicate, using the chemical structure shown several times elsewhere in this thread, exactly which of the "chemical" bonds are broken.

[DrWeird]

82. Agent X-J059R!

How dare you reveal that information in a public forum!

Is there something wrong with your implant? Have you not taken your calcium carbonate tablets to counteract the fluoride in the drinking water?

Stay where you are. We're sending a black helicopter to pick you up.

Hopefully we can get you back to Area 51 before the Besheeping rays get to you.

Sincerely,
E. Mastermind.

[treepig]

83. uh-oh

looks like i've betrayed the entire operation.

d'oh!!!

[Bdog]

84. radiation hormesis

Thats what AIDS and Hep C patients need...a good dose of radiation to boost their immune system.

[treepig]

85. that's probably one of the more accurate posts in this thread

and the beauty of it is, mother nature naturally provides the radiation - nothing for you to do, no money out of your pocket, no need to copywrite pseudo-scientific explanations . . .

[Bdog]

86. Quackery should know quackery

So AIDS and Hep-C patients are doing better already. I'm sure they will be glad to know.

What about a whole body mammogram or something with some really soft X-rays. That way their bodies will absorb more of the X-rays.

Don't want any ionizing radiation to pass through with out being absorbed by the body...as a mater of fact why not start giving mammograms to little girls...that way they won't get breast cancer.

[Bdog]

88. n/t

[Bdog]

89. Background radiation???

Well that's certainly not what you have been advocating.

So, radiation levels above background are not good???

[treepig]

91. when have i ever advocated deliberate exposure to radiation?

above and beyond that naturally encountered? perhaps you'd be so kind as to provide a link to that thread.

for the interested reader, more about radiation hormesis is provided in posts #17 and 18 of this thread, kindly kept current by nnadir:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x5609

on edit, it should be noted that others, not me do advocate radiation exposure to correct "nutritional" defeciences . . .

10. Nutrition and health


Drs. Luckey, Planel and others have produced research data that find that background radiation deficiency adversely effects microbes, plants and invertebrates as a dose deficiency of essential vitamins and minerals. Such data is consistent with dose-response for such nutrients that affects all orders of biota, including humans. Confirmatory research on the role of radiation in health and nutrition, and on mammals, has not been supported by the radiation science establishment, even though:

1. substantial results would be produced at the appropriate doses for radiation protection;

2. such preliminary research would require much less than 1% of the funding of current "radiation research", much of which is without merit except to promulgate public fear; and

3. the potential benefits to human health are very great, along with the potential for eliminating large and unwarranted public costs for unnecessary radiation protection, and reduce the unfounded public fear of radiation.


Dr. Luckey states: "If ionizing radiation is an essential agent, most populations live in a partial radiation deficiency. Radiation hormesis would then be the alleviation of a partial radiation deficiency. This would make the dose-response curve for ionizing radiation comparable with that of several essential nutrients. Examples include vitamin A, thiamin, vitamin B6, calcium, iron and selenium. Individuals and populations who receive insufficient amounts of these essential nutrients are routinely supplemented with those nutrients. Supplementation with an essential agent present in insufficient amounts would explain the dramatic results following small increments in whole body exposures to chronic, low dose irradiation."


Dr. Luckey further states: "The cumulative knowledge indicates exposures to the general population should be raised to a "minimum yearly recommended allowance" (MYRA) of about 10 cGy/y (Luckey 1991). A public health evaluation should be undertaken to establish the bases and methods of providing radiation supplementation as a public health service."


Drs. Sadao Hattori and Kiyohiko Sakamoto report that radiation hormesis is being used clinically to successfully treat and to suppress the reappearance of cancer in the hospital of Tohoku University. This clinical program was founded on research that confirms the stimulation of the immune system and the reduction and successful treatment of tumors in animals. Successful clinical practice has been implemented using x-ray of about 15 fractions of 10 cGy each, delivered 3 times per week for 5 weeks, with standard high-dose radiation treatments.

http://cnts.wpi.edu/RSH/Data_Docs/execsum98.html

references here:

http://cnts.wpi.edu/RSH/Data_Docs/references98.html

more information on low-dose radiation:

http://www.world-nuclear.org/sym/1998/cohen.htm

[DEMVET-USMC]

94. Your post:That`s probably one of the more accurate... directly links to:

Bdog`s post:Radiation Hormesis That does suggest exposing Hep-C and AIDS patients to "a good dose of radiation " as a possible treatment. You said it was one of the more accurate posts in this thread. Maybe you did not realize who`s post you were responding to ,I do not know. I am not going to get into these radiation discusions as they have nothing to do with BHT therapy. I regret getting involved at all. ...Oscar

[NNadir]

97. I'm quite sure that one would need the ability to think critically

to appreciate your comments on radiation.

Instead you are responding to comments that fail the logical tests that a decent high schooler should understand. It's called "begging the question." Simply because you note that radiation hormesis has become a scientifically reputable conception, based in a scientific examination of the religious (and now partially refutable) claim that "radiation is always bad, bad, bad, bad, because, well, I say its bad," you are accused of favoring indiscriminate irradiation of school girls.

This is, of course, a case of attempting to apply scientific scrutiny to religious convictions, always a less than satisfying enterprise. I wonder if your correspondant would have prevented the clinical trials of the drugs digitoxin and digoxin on the grounds that "Nightshade is a poisonous plant" or trials of Taxol on the grounds that "Yew trees are toxic." Undoubtably he would have done so, since subtle thinking is hardly involved here.

There are of course, no where near as many radioisotopes as there are organic chemicals, but I would bet that the fraction of nuclides having medical uses far outnumbers the fraction of organic chemicals that have medicinal value. There are over 3100 known nuclides, each of which has different physical, chemical, and in many cases, clinical properties. Of course if one is only capable of saying the generic term "radiation" with a rote expression of horror (and/or maladroit ill-informed sarcasm) making such distinctions is probably useless. A luddite is a luddite is a luddite and myopia is myopia is myopia. I'm sure the lives saved in the practice of Nuclear Medicine is as much a matter of cynical indifference here as, say, the lives lost to air pollution are a matter of indifference in the energy production field.

Thanks, though, for the links. It certainly would seem reasonable to subject a surprising finding like radiation hormesis to clinical trials, as earlier generations (and current generations) have applied other surprising findings to develop viable treatments and preventative measures in other cases. Whether such trials will have a positive outcome is not of course obvious. Still, it should not really be surprising that the interaction between living things and radiation should be multifaceted. Life evolved in the presense of radiation, and through much of history the earth was far more radioactive than it is now. The element potassium was, for instance 16X more radioactive at the the time of the emergence of life than it is now.

[Bdog]

102. Ever since the AIDS crisis started,

it has been clear that an impaired immune system increases cancer risk. It is logical to assume that if radiation stimulates the immune system, it would reduce deaths from cancer as well as death from other causes.

[Bdog]

98. So you don't believe in what you post.

You don't make sure that you and your family get an extra dose of radiation.

[DEMVET-USMC]

90. You say radiation helps build or strengthen the immune system but do not

explain how. This is new to me. Are people with AIDS being treated with some form of radiation ? There are number of different forms of radiation, which form are you talking about ? ...Oscar

[Bdog]

93. Ask treepig n/t

n/t= no text

[DEMVET-USMC]

96. Thank you TP for answering my question.

...Oscar

[DEMVET-USMC]

87. That is a good question,BHT forms crystals during synthesis,so how are

the individual BHT molecules bonded to each other to build a crystal of whatever size. Off the top of my head it would it would seem to have to be an ionic bond of some sort. I am going to have to read up on how some organic molecules form crystals for an accurate answer. That is a good question. ...Oscar

[DEMVET-USMC]

95. The answer is: hydrogen bonding which is a type of ionic bonding.

...Oscar

[treepig]

100. perhaps you'd like to amend your answer

after reading this information?

http://www.chemistry-react.org/go/default/Faq/Faq_3621.html

if, of course, you're not still be operating under the "i'd rather present my own ideas than be correct" mindset . . .

[DEMVET-USMC]

110. I read your link,maybe I missed your point. Hydrogen bonds are a type of

ionic bonds as I stated. The other information was specific to other substances quite different than BHT and no direct correlation can be drawn from these statements. Also, it is worth noting that these statements were made by a poster to that link. Though I see no reason to dispute his statements, they are after all only that. I missed your point. Please be more clear as to what you are saying. Also, are you: treepig and Dr.Weird the same person, as you both respond to postings I have made to the different one independently of each other always, and yet you both speak for each other freely,without reserve. Who are you guys or guy, some multiple personality type of some sort. If so this is a problem that can be "cured" with the use of Arthur Janov`s: PRIMAL THERAPY. I do think you could use some help in this regard. ...Oscar

[treepig]

113. you didn't notice

that it explicitly pointed out the difference between ionic interactions and hydrogen bonds?

you didn't notice that it explicitly stated that "waxy" molecules (like BHT) are held together by van der waals forces?


anyone who has the foggiest understanding of organic chemistry can take one look at BHT and immediately rule out ionic interactions because there are no positive or negative charges. also, hydrogen-bonding can be quickly eliminated as a significant source of inter-molecular interactions because the only possible moiety that could participate in hydrogen bonds is the hydroxyl group, but steric hinderance provided by the t-butyl groups prevents that from happening.

if you think dr. weird and myself are the same person (which, btw, is highly offensive to treepigs everywhere, who have worked long and hard to shed the "weird" label), sorry to disappoint you but we're not. however, if we appear to be on the same page, it's simply because we both know a bit of basic organic chemistry (ok, for dr. weird it's apparently a lot since he teaches the course, for me i took such a class decades ago - the fundamental principles are well established and not really in need of revising by somebody who has half of his or her posts contradicting the other half, and with the other 90% making no sense at all).

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[treepig]

123. losing with grace i see

btw, companies buy BHT to add to their food packaging, not to treat viral infections.

somehow, i'm not at all surprised that such an exceedingly small subtlety escapes you . . .

[DrWeird]

124. I use BHT to keep my ether from exploding.

Because it prevents the propagation of radical species, dontcha know.

What a crybaby.

[DEMVET-USMC]

31. Why does it matter that blood is buffered to base as to your theories ?

Hi Oscar, That is a good question and let me explain. I have done some further research and human blood has a pH value of 7.4. One can think of it as a measure of hydroxide < OH- > ions in a water based solution that has a pH value greater than 7.On this scale the difference between 7 and 8 is a tenfold increase. So since human blood has a pH value of 7.4 there is a significant concentration of hydroxide < OH- > ions flowing through your veins. Now a hydroxide ion has one more electron than it has protons. This gives it what is often called a formal charge of 1-. It has a magnetic attraction to event a neutral atom and because with the BHT molecules large array of hydrogen atoms sticking out there embedded in the lipids of the viruses I have discussed it will be drawn to these hydrogens partly because of their tertiary structure which tends to draw the electrons toward the benzene ring or aromatic ring. This leaves those tertiary hydrogens with somewhat less of a negative charge. These hydroxide ions are very much compelled to grab a proton from one of these tertiary hydrogen atoms. Now if one of these hydroxide ions bangs into one with enough force it will grab a proton and become a water molecule. This leaves that portion of the BHT molecule with a reactive site and chemical reactions are going to take place because it now has a formal charge of 1- and it will grab a proton from some where in that mass that makes up the constituents of that lipid mass which has a very high concentration of hydrogen atoms. It can and will grab event a carbon or a nitrogen atom. The electrical charge very often just keeps grabbing protons in a chain reaction that builds fibers if you will and each site it grabs a proton from becomes another reactive site creating often branched polymers. Anyway, when its all over the virus is destroyed. There are other chain reactions that can be set in motion depending on how the hydrogen atom leaves the initiation reaction. For instance if it leaves as a hydrogen atom with its one electron free radical polymerization reaction will be initiated for a different but no less compelling reason. Anyway the virus ends up being destroyed and that is what is important. Similar reactions can be set in motion to clean up harmful deposits throughout the entire cardiovascular system and event harmful deposits in the lungs. I will end this discussion here for tonight because I am a bit tired. .......Oscar

[treepig]

32. the difference in hydroxide ion concentration

between pH 7.0 and 7.4 is an increase from 0.1 micromolar to 0.25 micromolar (note that "micro" means 10 to the negative power of six, or one in a million).

the concentration of hydroxide ions at pH 7.4 is still vanishingly small !!!!
(as i already pointed out in a post above)

something else that has been pointed out multiple times is that BHT is an anti-oxidant, not a pro-oxidant

you appear to have exactly the mentality of a creationist - despite volumous (and fairly elementary) evidence that flatly refutes your hypotheses - you just keep repeating your nonsense over and over, i suppose with the hope that if you say it enough times it will become true. that might work with mr. limbaugh and his dittoheads - it doesn't work in science - the laws of nature are rather impervious to to any such manipulation.

[DEMVET-USMC]

38. BHT molecules are referred to as anti-oxidants because they more readily

oxidize than the compounds or mixtures they are added to, they can be described as scavengers of oxygen in say gasoline, a mixture of hydrocarbons. Why would gasoline sellers care if there is some oxygen in the gasoline ? The presence of oxygen in gasoline can and will create water molecules over time and that is why the BHT is added. It oxidizes more readily than the gasoline and will pick up or scavenge those oxygen atoms. As is so often the case the nomenclature of chemistry can be misleading unless and until you know the context of the specific usage of such terms as oxidation itself ,which has at least one definition that has nothing to do with the element oxygen specifically, though it often does involve the element oxygen. This is part of what redox reactions are: that which gains electrons is said to have been reduced and, because these electrons have to come from some where, that which loses or gives up electrons is oxidized. And as I said, the element oxygen is just one of many elements that take part in these redox reactions and is not in anyway required for redox reactions to take place. In fact when oxygen is present in these reactions, due to it`s high electro-negativity property < it is the second most electronegative element of all elements, fluorine is the most electronegative>it,oxygen is reduced and that from wich it gains an electron or electrons from is said to have been oxidized. Electro-negativity is a measure of a particle, element,ion, molecule, or molecular group on more complex molecules affinity for electrons.I hope this helps to clarify the question you asked. ...Oscar

[DrWeird]

36. You want to deprotonate a t-Bu proton from BHT? LOL?

Let's consider the structure of BHT. Now if you want to deprotonate BHT, the first year chemistry student can tell you that the first proton you'll remove is the phenolic proton. Not to hard, it has a pKa of about 10. Unfortunately that requires a lethal amount of base. Now if you keep increasing the amount of base you might just deprotonate the toluenic proton, that has a pKa of somewhere of around 45, since you can delocalize the negative charge into the aromatic ring. You might be able to do that with a strong base like, say, tBuLi. Of course tBuLi is such a strong base it spontaneously bursts into flame when exposed to air, so that might not make such a good treatment for Hep C. And finally there are the tBu protons, which you want to deprotonate. They've got a pKa, I'd imaging, somewhere around 55. Some fifty orders of magnitude more then you can deprotonate at physiological pH. Good luck.

[NNadir]

37. You have completely missed the point. Once you eat the butyl lithium

you will certainly be done with your worries on the matter of Hep C.

Anyway, I think the aromatic protons are somewhat more acidic than then any of the alkyl protons, since you can form benzyne type intermediates with potassium amide, but who's to say? It would be very hard to accomplish in the presence of water, so I'd suggest completely dehydrating the patient to find out. I'll bet that even before we establish the next most acidic proton in BHT, we'll have killed all Hep C viruses too. With this in mind, I would like to suggest that potassium amide as a treatment for Hep C, as well as many other viral diseases.

:-)

[DEMVET-USMC]

40. Well ,anything hard to accomplish in the presence of water does not

seem to be a helpful treatment for people or other animals. You suggested dehydrating the patient. This would of course kill them, but perhaps they would no longer carry the viral infection. From a patient`s point of view the treatment you suggest seems to have a very serious side effect, dying. ...Oscar

[NNadir]

41. Don't be such a naysayer. n/t

[DEMVET-USMC]

42. Hello NNadir, please tell me what : n/t represents or stands for.

I see this on the web all the time and do not know what it means. ...Oscar

[NNadir]

74. To most people it means...

no text.

Most often when I use it I mean "not tritiated."

The post to which you refer had no text. Neither did it have tritium. So either usuage applies.

[DrWeird]

47. The toluene protons are a bit more acidic.

Treepig has a nice little diagram with pKa's above.

The methyl anion can delocalize the charge into the ring without any additional strain. With benzyne you get that poor orbital overlap, and start to lose aromaticity.

[DEMVET-USMC]

49. Another way of stating what you just said is that the molecule becomes

more actvated, more reactive. Chemical reactions are what destroys the viruses. Having an unreactive molecule is not desired,au contraire my friend. ...Oscar

[DrWeird]

58. That's not at all what I'm saying

BHT isn't acidic at all.

[NNadir]

52. OK, I'll check it out.

I'm still going to guess that all of the potential anions and dianions are going kill Hep C and AIDS that survive the dehydration of the patient.

[NNadir]

53. The difference is pKa is only 2, close, a factor of 100.

Clearly there will be some benzyne present, in the dessicated patient who is immersed in liquid ammonia/potassium amide during the process to kill off any viruses he or she has. I didn't miss by that much.

I think you're quibbling too much Dr. Weird. :-)

[DrWeird]

62. Well, I did say "a bit."

I just thought this thread could use a little scienceing up.

[NNadir]

73. Lots of things can use "scienceing."

I recently scienced the hood of my car and, honestly, it's never looked better. I put some sciencing around my well and the water tastes great. Some of the sciencings that you buy over the counter are not so good, though, so I usually mix my own.

Sometimes, in very private moments, I science with my wife, but she doesn't like it when I discuss that with other people publicly. (I'm sure you don't want to know too much more about it either.) Still, I must admit that its one of the best uses for sciencing I know.

I fully understand your need to science this thread, and I applaud your generosity in doing so, but I must admit that this is one place that sciencing doesn't seem to have made all that much difference.

:-) :-) :-)

[DEMVET-USMC]

60. Tertiary hydrocarbon groups are ring activaters not deactivaters and you

should know if you don`t being a chemist and all. ...Oscar

[DrWeird]

64. Being a chemist...

I know that in aromatic systems tert-butyl groups are electron donating and sterically bulky. Therefore they can be activating or deactivating, depending on what reaction you're doing.

And you should know that if you spent 7 years studying BHT.

[DEMVET-USMC]

77. I cannot help but be wary of anything regarding medical reasearch and

the Goverment as they are so closely allied with the drug companies. There have been clinical studies done with very possitve results. I guess it boils down to who you trust. I have my own personal history with BHT as a treatment for Hep-C. I know the results and I no longer am symptomatic of having this infection and did achieve a Hep-C RNA result of NEGATIVE. ...Oscar

[DEMVET-USMC]

78. I do not wish to call you by the forum name you have chosen, is TP

O.K WITH YOU ? Also, is it more likely that HYDROCHLORIC acid is a reactant as opposed to being a catalyst in the stomach when BHT enters that environment ? Any factual information that adds to this body of work would of necessity go to those who provide it. I had hoped to develop some trust between us and would still like to. ...Oscar

[DEMVET-USMC]

79. I am sorry I said what I did in my previous posting. I will come up with

my own answers, right or wrong. This is my work and right or wrong I will come up with my own answers. No disrespect intended or to be inferred. You are obviously a very intelligent person and I do respect you and appreciate your feedback. ...Oscar

[DEMVET-USMC]

9. INTRACELLULAR means inside the cell,INTER CELLULAR means between

the cells. I got that back-wards and apologies to all posters and all DUer`s. I have not slept in three days and and losing my command of the English language. So to clarify what I am saying:BHT has the ability to readily destroy viruses in the bloodstream and other inter-cellular fluids, it does not have the ability to destroy viruses inside a cell which can be referred to intracellular fluids. I got it back-wards and I do apologize for it. This error in language is by no means a retreat from anything else I said. ...Oscar

[mastein]

11. Clarity, Good! Spouting off, bad!

Thanks for going the extra mile on those posts. I am glad to see real science actually getting respect here. That more than I can for those who oppose us on BOTH SIDES of idealogical spectrum.

Scientific laws are the only ones that cannot be broken. As a Party and national community we must accept and embrace real science and good scientific research across the board, regardless of how it fits with our political ideologies.

Also, people posting what could be construed by a reasonable person as medical advice should really watch they are saying. You could be in for a world of hurt.

[DrWeird]

13. Umm, BHT's a radical trap.

It doesn't generate free radicals and "ionic reactions." At least I hope not, otherwise my ether's about to explode.

Now if you want to fight disease with radical traps, that's just fine. Cancer, for example, is caused by free radicals. But most people use vitamin C, not BHT.

I'm glad you're interested in medicinal chemistry, but given this and other threads it seems you have very little concept about how chemistry works. I suggest an introductory course or two at your local community college.

[DEMVET-USMC]

15. Well Dr. WEIRD I have been researching and writing about this topic

since 1997 and had a booklet copyrighted in 1998. Frankly I consider myself somewhat of an authorority on this subject. I appreciate your interest. Oh by the way, do a google search using the words: butylated hydroxytoluene+antiviral and I`ll be there. ...Oscar

[DrWeird]

21. Well Demvet I'm a chemist and chemists for years...

have been using BHT as a radical inhibitor. Regardless of how much "research" you have done on the subject, and how many pseudoscience booklets you have copyrighted, it doesn't make you an authorority (sic) on the subject.

Do a search on the multitudes of published, peer-reviewed papers regarding BHT and you'll find out you've got it completely backwards.

[DEMVET-USMC]

25. All the literature you have read discusses BHT in a non-aqueous

environment. As a chemist you should now that any compound reacts or does not react such as the case may be in a water based solvent which is dipolar and a non-polar solvent. A simple example is table salt . It easily dissolves in water but will not dissolve in oils.

[DEMVET-USMC]

16. Also,as to free radicals and cancer, as I have stated cells have of

necessity evolved the necesssary mechanisms to readily deactivate free radical and ionic reactions. Also, think for a momement if you had the choice of taking a relatively safe compound to treat a hepatitis C viral infection or take your luck along with your money and have a liver transplant as so many Hep-C infected people have along with a lifetime of anti-rejecion drugs, what would you choose. Get Real ...Oscar

[DrWeird]

23. Yes, cells have defenses against radicals.

Because radicals cause cancer. Unfortunately radicals get through the defenses and that's why people get cancer. Ask most biochemists and they'll probably recommend against loading your system with radical initiators. But that's OK, since BHT doesn't generate radicals, it inhibits them.

If there were a safe compound that cured Hep C versus a liver transplant, sure I'd take it. That said, I'd rather go with actual scientific medical treatment, versus quakery and snake oil.

[DEMVET-USMC]

24. All the literature you have read discusses BHT in oils and a non-aqueous

environment. BHT in the bloodstream and or other intercellular fluids is in a water based environment and these molecules behave and take on new properties in such a solvent so to speak. And yes BHT is slightly soluable in water. ...Oscar

[DrWeird]

35. BHT is only slightly soluble in water.

Only very slightly. So physiologically it will stay in cell membranes and adipose tissue. Nevertheless it is still a radical trap.

[DEMVET-USMC]

39. Interestingly, I at one time did the calculations as to the amount of free

water available in blood, by free water, I mean that which is not inside of entities such as red blood cells and the figures I came up with were very close to BHT`s saturation point for water using 250mg for a 150lb. person. I do not have my old notes at hand and would be hard pressed to find that paper. ...Oscar

[DrWeird]

48. Oscar, the solubility of BHT is about 1 mg/ L.

So in order to dissolve 250 mg, you'd need 250 liters. Which is 250 kilograms of water.

It's not easy to fit 500 lbs of water into a 150 lb man.

Regardless, BHT in your body is going to be dissolve in lipids and membranes. And either way it's still a radical trap. That's why they use it as radical traps in fats, oils, and meats.

[DEMVET-USMC]

50. All of the substances you just named are non-water based except meat

which has a high , fat, lipid , content. Nothing you said in anyway detracts from my premises. ...Oscar

[treepig]

54. quite a bit is actually known on the pharmacokinetics of BHT

as explained in detail here:

http://www.mindfully.org/Plastic/Antioxidants/BHA-BHT.htm

basically, the body regards BHT as undesirable, and like virtually all lipophilic compounds it tries to get rid of, it metabolically converts it to more hydrophobic species:





all of these metabolites (which are made INTRAcellularly, btw) are less soluble in lipids and membranes, and more soluble in water (so that they can be secreted in the urine).

why do you want to get this stuff out of your body? well, this research project recently (1999) funded by the nih might provide some clues:

http://www.feingold.org/malkinson.html


The long term objective is to understand the mechanisms by which lung tumor growth is enhanced by non-genotoxic compounds and to identify the genes which regulate susceptibility to this process. The food additive, butylated hydroxytoluene (BHT), encourages the development of tumors from previously initiated cells. The quinone methide, QM-OH (shown in the image linked above), is derived from a hydroxylated metabolite of BHT, BHT-OH, and is the probable reactive species that promotes tumors

[DEMVET-USMC]

43. Good link to discussion of and clinical tests done re:BHT as an antiviral.

This link discusses and provides links to the original work by: Snipes, Person, Keith, and Cupp. It also provides links to clinical studies done by these and other scientists. ...Oscar

[DEMVET-USMC]

61. Oxygen reacts preferentially with BHA or BHT rather than oxidizing...LINK

fats or oils thereby protecting them from spoilage. This short article explains how these compounds are used in a wide range of products because the BHA and BHT oxidize more readily than the many products they are added to including gasoline were the presence of oxygen can lead to the formation of water and other undesirable compounds.The web address is: < http://chemistry.about.com/library/weekly/aa082101a.htm >I hope this puts an end to this argument that has been presented that BHT is a highly unreactive compound. ...Oscar

[DrWeird]

65. You'd think it would put an end to the argument...

Since it's basically the opposite of what you said at the start of this thread, that being BHT was a radical initiator.

[DEMVET-USMC]

68. I guess you missed the part where I point out that the BHT must pass

through the stomach, that`s gastric juices have a pH value of about 2 due to its high concentration of hydrochloric acid and is chemically reacted upon to produce hyroxylated BHT....

[treepig]

69. and you appear to have missed the post

where it was explained to you that BHT is absolutely non-reactive at a pH of 2.

the deal with BHT is that, for all intents and purposes, it has no chemical reactivity whatsoever except for two very special (note, i'm well aware that "very special" has no scientific meaning, but i'm just including this terminology in an attempt to reach out and connect with you who appear to enjoy the use of terms such as "highly significant" and "vast majority" - without providing any numerical evidence of the high significance)situations when:

1. BHT is metabolically (i.e., in reactions catalyzed by detoxification enzymes) converted to species of increased hydrophilicity so that it can be secreted in the urine (as i've described in post #54). unfortunately some of these species are carcinogenic, leading to questions about the wisdom of long-term ingestion of BHT.

2. BHT encounters a free radical, such as an hydroxyl radical generated from hydrogen peroxide formed during normal metabolism or from exposure of water or biological molecules to ionizing radiation. the danger of free radicals is that they can initiate chain reactions that damage (in principle) an infinite number of biological molecules (causing things like cancer in people or food spoilage in packaged food). BHT terminates these reactions, because on reaction with a radical, the resulting BHT radical is so unreactive (due to steric hinderance of the -O* (hydroxyl radical) and ring delocalization of the unpaired electron) that it does not continue the chain reaction, instead the whole process is terminated.

[DEMVET-USMC]

76. I have tried to be clear:cells have the ability to deactivate free radical

and ionic reactions readily, as they occur as natural part of cellular metabolism, they do not need BHT molecules to do so. Viruses have NO such ability. The reactions I have discussed take place out side of the cells,not inside. Did you check that website: < http://chemistry.about.com/library/weekly/aa082101a.htm >. It is a short read and you may want to at least read what they have to say about how BHT works as an anti-oxidant which is that it more readily reacts with oxygen than that which it is added to such as gasoline to prevent the synthesis of water and other undesirable compounds. Butter and cooking oils to prevent rancidity and on and on. Also, you can do a simple experiment to prove or disprove whether BHT chemically reacts in an acidic environment of pH 2, the pH value of gastric juices. Add the proper proportions of hydrochloric acid and water to obtain that value and add say 250mg of BHT to this mixture using a glass container with say one half of a cup of the mixture of water and acid and if I am correct, because this would be an exothermic reaction the mixture will become noticeably warmer. I have speculated the product of this reaction would be hydroxylated BHT. Upon further refection it seems to me and least some of it would be chlorinated as well,possibly chlorinated BHT would be the primary product of such a reaction. What do you think ? ...Oscar

[DrWeird]

80. LOL.

Oscar, the term 'antioxidant' means it reacts with radicals. In biological systems it is often peroxy radicals, but there's absolutely no reason that oxygen, by definition, has to be involved. Just like you don't need oxygen to have oxidation. Earlier you said that BHT evolved radicals, and claimed to be an authority on the subject. Instead of admitting that you were wrong and have no idea what you're talking about, you just pretend you never wrote it.


" Also, you can do a simple experiment to prove or disprove whether BHT chemically reacts in an acidic environment of pH 2, the pH value of gastric juices. Add the proper proportions of hydrochloric acid and water to obtain that value and add say 250mg of BHT to this mixture using a glass container with say one half of a cup of the mixture of water and acid and if I am correct, because this would be an exothermic reaction the mixture will become noticeably warmer. I have speculated the product of this reaction would be hydroxylated BHT. Upon further refection it seems to me and least some of it would be chlorinated as well,possibly chlorinated BHT would be the primary product of such a reaction. What do you think ?"

Have you done this experiment Oscar? Did you do a control? Did you dilute the HCl in water without adding BHT? If you had, you'd notice that the dilution of HCl in water is exothermic in and of itself (leaving me to believe you've never done this experiment before). When you through in BHT absolutely nothing happens. It doesn't hydroxylate, it doesn't chlorinate.

[Dogmudgeon]

92. Ladies and Gentlemen, you're all missing the point

BHT does -- or does not -- have a clinically significant therapeutic effect antiviral effect.

DEMVET-USMC's intuitions, explanations and hunches, whether they are wrong or right, have no bearing on the reality of the thing. The explanation always comes after the phenomenon is observed. And withering "Skeptical" sarcasm has even less effect, unless you are practicing for a job interview at CSICOP (or maybe SNL).

The same thing applies to becoming defensive in the light of objective criticism.

Since I have no dog in this fight, it's not looking too "scientific" to me.

As far I as have read, BHT failed miserably in tests against HIV, after several pilot studies showing promise against certain classes of other viruses, mainly herpes viruses. I also am given to believe that relatively few studies of BHT (as an antiviral) have been conducted.

While the criticism to DEMVET-USMC's explanation may be accurate (as his models erroneous), it's merely a side issue. Incorrect explanations do not make phenomena go away. The only way to find out whether BHT works or not -- and if it does, against which pathogens -- is through experimentation and observation. I'm happy that DEMVET-USMC has gotten relief from BHT, but we can quote Ockham, Sagan, and Popper until the cows come home, and until somebody does the studies, we're all just playing grab-ass.

Until we reach the point where several series of experiments are run, real patients will take doses of BHT with the hope (but no assurance) that BHT therapy won't just cure their ills, but also cause no new ones. Ideally, they and their physicians will keep notes on their progress, and this body of observations -- "anecdotal" though the observations may be -- will be scrutinized for clues to designing the experiments.

It may take decades before the mechanism is known; in fact, the mechanisms behind most drugs are still poorly-established.

If DEMVET-USMC wants to propose a mechanism of action, he should go "back to the drawing board" since his current explanation is incorrect or incomplete; but it still won't make a bit of difference to the viruses being tested. They'll incorporate it (or intercalate it) and be de-activated, or not. And DEMVET-USMC should take comfort in knowing that he won't be the first person to have to revise a hypothesis.

Bob Gallo and Luc Montagnier made many of the same mistakes back in the 1980s when they were studying HIV/LAV/HTLV. Our good fortune is that they realized they were acting like idiots and decided to work together instead of bickering over who had the biggest, hardest, and most penetrating Science. I wish more scientists -- and laypeople -- took that point of view, but the scientific world (amateur as well as professional) has become so cut-throat competitive that it's not likely.

And guess who loses?

--bkl

[enki23]

112. clap. clap.

science is empirical.

[DrWeird]

118. I'll have to disagree.

First, I don't really think this thread was about BHT's antiviral properties. I believe it's more likely that Oscar was trying to talk big and make himself look like he knew chemistry after his rather embarassing threads on Avogadro's number.

Now, Oscar stated that BHT had antiviral properties, AND he proposed a mode of action. Since he didn't give, or I didn't see, any valid supporting information regarding the former, I and a few others decided to address the latter.

"The explanation always comes after the phenomenon is observed."

The hypothesis comes before the experiment. "I hypothesize that since BHT generates radicals, it will therefore destroy Hep C viruses." In order for science to get off the ground, there has to be a valid hypothesis. And Oscar's hypothesis is clearly invalid. That doesn't really effect whether or not BHT has any clinical effect, sure, but that hasn't been addressed since the orignal post, with good reason, we haven't had any info on it.

Now in the following attempts to correct Oscar's mistake so he could revise his hypothesis, things started to go down hill. At about the point where Oscar, despite all evidence to the contrary, claimed he was an authority on the subject of BHT this thread became more about introductory organic chemistry.

It hasn't been about debunking as much as it's been about fixing error, since there's not really anything to debunk. Oscar's been getting his chemistry wrong since the Avogadro threads, and while you may need a background in chemistry to see why he's wrong, anybody with critical reading skills can see that he is.

Now, if he had admitted straight up that he was incorrect, this thread would have died a noble death about eighty posts ago. Since he didn't, I've just taken the same approach to this thread as I would take to one of my student's lab reports. Just keep correcting him ever time he makes a chemistry mistake. And that's why this thread is what it is.

But that's all a matter of opinion. What I really wanted to disagree with was this.

"It may take decades before the mechanism is known; in fact, the mechanisms behind most drugs are still poorly-established. "

BHT is about as simple as a molecule can get. It's mechanism, at least in regards to this thread, is well understood. As are it's pharmokinetics, as somebody's already pointed out. Now I don't if most mechanisms for drugs are "poorly-established" but I doubt it. The basic organic chemistry behind it all of it has been well understood for decades, and the pharmocology of many drugs is equally well understood. If a drug's pharmocology is not currently understood, you can bet it's the subject of hot research, as an understanding of a drug's mode of action is essential.

[Name removed]

121. Deleted message

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[DrWeird]

122. I was thinking the same thing.

It takes a lot of skill to get everything wrong.

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

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[DEMVET-USMC]

131. You claim you are from the Boston area: Oh yeah, of course I believe you.

You should know what that means unless we travel in such different circles that you do not. It means I do not believe you. ...Oscar

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[NNadir]

137. Finally, a realistic theory on this thread..

If there's anything intriguing about all this stuff, it's exactly that quality of mixing the chemical lexicon with a totally pixilated interpretation of it. This alone is, if nothing else, fascinating.

Nice theory. I for one can't imagine a way to test it, especially with Oscar himself looking on.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[NNadir]

153. Oscar, I'll really miss you if, as you imply in #151,

you are killed by mysterious dark forces. Like I and others have said, it would be hard to make this stuff up.

I would never suppose that would be possible for me to make things clear to you though. That's hardly a worthy effort, since better people than I have failed at that.

May I suggest a topic for your next thread though: "Do electrons roll when they move over the hills and valleys of electromagnetic waves? If so, do they get hot from the friction?"

Whaddaya think guys? Could I be the next Oscar if Oscar, to paraphrase Kliban, is "due to forces beyond his comprehension, spit out of the universe like a watermelon seed and never heard from again?"

[treepig]

156. you do know, of course, that there's only one electron in the universe

it is green, and travels through time (so as to be able to perform multiple functions simultaneously as is often necessary).

i trust that these basic facts will be incorporated into the electron thread - otherwise i'll be skeptical right from the get-go.

[Name removed]

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[Pale Blue Dot]

125. A friendly note from the moderator - PLEASE READ.

Are you guys OK in here? I honestly have no idea what the hell any of you are talking about, so slogging through all of this has been tough on me :-):dunce:. I want to remind everyone that personal attacks are not allowed; you may attack the ideas ("That is a crackpot theory") but not the person ("You are a crackpot"). I will not hesitate to lock this thread or any other if I feel they have outlived their usefulness.

It would be nice if the major players in this thread could respond to this message, either in the thread or via alert or PM, just to let me know that there or no hurt feeling and it's OK to keep this open. Thanks!

[DrWeird]

126. I'm pretty sure I haven't called anybody names.

I did once call what Oscar was doing "pseudoscience" only because it fit the technical definition and I wanted to correct the behaviour, under the assumption that Oscar was interested in the science and wanted to fix his technical mistakes.

I have certainly tried to refrain myself from being insulting. There was a DU rule awhile back, I don't now if it is still there, stating that if somebody asks you a question and for supporting information, you should answer it. I've "called out" to the poster to answer this question, but only in this and the other related thread, so I didn't think it was an instance of being disruptive.

There is no real usefulness to this thread, but I'd sure like to keep it open. Perhaps a move to the meeting room, or something, although I'm used to it being here.

oh, and btw, I've noticed a couple of posts that were replies to mine have been deleted, I presume due to personal attacks. I never alerted on these and would have rather they had stayed undeleted. It's a rather fiery debate and have absolutely no hard feelings when people get a little worked up over it.

[treepig]

127. a few comments . . .

one issue is whether medical advice should be dispensed through political discussion websites - i'm not sure what the legal ramifications for DU are (on the surface you wouldn't think anyone out there would be stupid enough to pay any heed to it, but who knows what desparate people grasping at straws will do).

the particular problem here is that the medical advice is not supported by clinical studies. furthermore, the underlying scientific mechanism offered to support the rationale behind the advice is directly contradicted by overwhelming scientific evidence (as i've pointed out, there are well over 2000 peer-reviewed studies that have been published about BHT, so it's a very well-understood molecule).

having said that, this thread may play a valuable function and probably shouldn't be terminated. more specifically, "urban myths" such as BHT's anti-viral/cancer properties are propagated - in whole or in part - by information from non-peer-reviewed websites. in fact, before this thread was "scienced up" Oscar himself was bragging that his ideas were showing up rather prominently on google search results. at least now anyone unsuspecting person who would stumble onto this thread either by virtue of being a DU member, or through a google search, would pretty quickly see that there are two sides to the issue even if they are not scientifically literate to understand the details. in this case, i would urge any such person to print out this thread, take it over to the chemistry department of the local community college, research university (etc etc, and i mean any at all) for a "second opinion" on whose science is sound.

[Name removed]

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[DEMVET-USMC]

154. I never made this the joke it is: It is a very serious topic .As far as I

am concerned, you may as well end it. No good seems to be coming of it. I do not care anymore. I tried. Oscar

[Bdog]

157. NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Ever since the AIDS crisis started, it has been clear that an impaired immune system increases cancer risk. It is logical to assume that if radiation stimulates the immune system, it would reduce deaths from cancer as well as death from other causes.


NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!
Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise....
Our two weapons are fear and surprise... and ruthless efficiency....
Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...
and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope....
Our four... no...
Amongst our weapons... Amongst our weaponry...
are such elements as fear, surprise...
I'll come in again.

[Pale Blue Dot]

158. OK, guys, I'm going to lock this

I know that this has been fun and all, but I think this topic has gone about as far as it can go, and DEMVET-USMC isn't even around to defend himself any more. Please feel free to start a new thread on this topic if you'd like.